September 9, 2025 • 5 mins
There's belief more 15-year-olds are going into vocational study due to an overloaded secondary sector.
New data shows 90 percent of the 1300 students granted an early leaving exemption last year, chose more study over full-time employment.
Mt Albert Grammar head Patrick Drumm joined the Afternoons team says it's an improvement on students leaving school and not getting qualifications at all - but we still need more data on where these students are going.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks Be follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
More students are leaving school early, so should we make
them stay longer and increase the leaving age to seventeen.
Patrick Drummer is the headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar School.
He's a good man and he joins us on the line. Now, Patrick,
very good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Good afternoon, How are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Welcome back to the show. So we've just seen the
highest number of early leaving exemptions since two thousand and seven.
What do you think is driving more fifteen year olds
to leave school?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Patrick, Well, it's interestingly I've just really come across that
story today as well. I suppose like everyone else, but
I suppose I want to look at the actual number.
It's not a huge number when you think of the
number of secondary students we have in the country, right,
I think we've got something like two fifty three hundred
thousand students, So it's a it's a real drop in
(01:01):
the bucket there, I suppose from my perspective, without having
dug too deep into the into the numbers or behind
the staf', there is that if these youngsters are heading
into purposeful post secondary environment work further study. I mean,
that's really it's a real good news story. I mean
one of the big concerns we've had is across the
(01:21):
country of students who are leaving without a qualification and
then and they're not continuing any employment or training at all.
And that's probably a much bigger concern. That's that's in
the many thousands of students.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
What are kids and parents have to do, like admin
wise with the school if their kids want to leave
at fifteen, they can't just not turn up. They have
to organize these things.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Right, Well, I'll be in trouble if they don't turn up.
But yeah, you're right. Look, they need to go through
a process with the Ministry of Education and this sort
of a vetting process there and then it'll come to
the school for our opinion and our support for that
and what usually we put down some potential reasons why
that might be. I mean, this is quite these these
are exceptional cases. It's not on a it's not not
(02:05):
a wide scale or you know, a current at all.
And then it goes back to the Ministry and it's
approved and those students can leave school before sixteen.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So there's already been talk of increasing the leaving age
to seventeen. Patrick, how would you feel about that? Would
that be counterintuitive to ensuring fifteen sixteen year olds actually
go on to better education if they decide to leave.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, well, I think it's what they are doing if
they are going to leave. So I think the staying
at school, the incentive to stay at school obviously is
the ideal, but you know it's not for everyone in
terms of what different schools offer. You know, you've got
to go to your local school, zoned school, and that's
the rules law we have that school may not be
(02:50):
totally suitable for a student. So, you know, raising the
age to seventeen I think as aspirational. I think it's
a good signal that we value more learning is better.
But again, if those students aren't staying to seventeen, we
need to know where they're going because if they're just
going out to a pretty black future, you know we
pay for that, don't we? Down the track?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
What do kids miss out? Do you think they miss something?
Miss something, even if it's you know, jumping off before
year thirteen, do they miss something in terms of development
and I know, socializing and you know what the school
has to offer.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, I think there's huge opportunities as you move through
a school into the senior school. You know what, if
you're engaged in your school, there are incredible opportunities. There's
leadership opportunities, there's the mentoring of the younger students. The
relationship of a school with it senior students evolves, doesn't it.
We handle our year nine students a little bit different
(03:48):
than we might we might our year twelve and thirteen students,
and that's just a part of the school. I really
enjoy is watching students grow and develop and mature through
the system. And you know they are they are great
young adults by the time they are leaving school. So
ideally you'd want everyone to experience that and have the
confidence then to go be successful at school and then
go on to those next stages afterwards.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Well, it's a testament to you that you want to
keep them right through to year thirteen. Considering how absolutely
rammed Albert Grammar is with people, you could use the space,
couldn't you.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well that's right, but I mean, you know that's our job,
that's our business, and you know, we'd like to see
everyone come right through from year nine to thirteen to
do five years of secondary education and then kick on
strongly after that.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Now, Patrick drum Headmaster of Mount Albert Graham, you might
not want a weigh on this. This is a weigh
in on this. This is a secondary topic that I've
been talking about. What do you say to people like
me who claim this is going back in time that
the cane was better than detention because you didn't miss
the bus home with the cane.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
You're setting me up here, aren't you. I was probably
at the school, probably earlier than you at my own schooling,
I suppose, so I know what you're talking about. But no, look,
Will's moved on. We've got to find other ways. You know,
we haven't got a great record on some of our
solutions in terms of physical solutions to things, you know,
(05:08):
in our communities, and I think we need to model,
let at school, these other ways to solve problems and
get the result we want rather than than I think
the Canes head its day put it that way.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I don't think I'm getting a lot of sport and
bringing it back from my kids.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Attention is working pretty well, hey, Patrick, Really good to
catch up with you. Thank you so much for your
time and we'll talk down the track.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Great to check all the business man.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, thank you. That is Patrick drum headmaster at Mounts
Albert Grammar.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
For more from News Talks b listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks Be follow
this and our Wide Ranger podcasts now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
More students are leaving school early, so should we make
them stay longer and increase the leaving age to seventeen.
Patrick Drummer is the headmaster of Mount Albert Grammar School.
He's a good man and he joins us on the line. Now, Patrick,
very good afternoon to you.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Good afternoon, How are you very good?
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Welcome back to the show. So we've just seen the
highest number of early leaving exemptions since two thousand and seven.
What do you think is driving more fifteen year olds
to leave school?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Patrick, Well, it's interestingly I've just really come across that
story today as well. I suppose like everyone else, but
I suppose I want to look at the actual number.
It's not a huge number when you think of the
number of secondary students we have in the country, right,
I think we've got something like two fifty three hundred
thousand students, So it's a it's a real drop in
(01:01):
the bucket there, I suppose from my perspective, without having
dug too deep into the into the numbers or behind
the staf', there is that if these youngsters are heading
into purposeful post secondary environment work further study. I mean,
that's really it's a real good news story. I mean
one of the big concerns we've had is across the
(01:21):
country of students who are leaving without a qualification and
then and they're not continuing any employment or training at all.
And that's probably a much bigger concern. That's that's in
the many thousands of students.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
What are kids and parents have to do, like admin
wise with the school if their kids want to leave
at fifteen, they can't just not turn up. They have
to organize these things.
Speaker 3 (01:43):
Right, Well, I'll be in trouble if they don't turn up.
But yeah, you're right. Look, they need to go through
a process with the Ministry of Education and this sort
of a vetting process there and then it'll come to
the school for our opinion and our support for that
and what usually we put down some potential reasons why
that might be. I mean, this is quite these these
are exceptional cases. It's not on a it's not not
(02:05):
a wide scale or you know, a current at all.
And then it goes back to the Ministry and it's
approved and those students can leave school before sixteen.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
So there's already been talk of increasing the leaving age
to seventeen. Patrick, how would you feel about that? Would
that be counterintuitive to ensuring fifteen sixteen year olds actually
go on to better education if they decide to leave.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Yeah, well, I think it's what they are doing if
they are going to leave. So I think the staying
at school, the incentive to stay at school obviously is
the ideal, but you know it's not for everyone in
terms of what different schools offer. You know, you've got
to go to your local school, zoned school, and that's
the rules law we have that school may not be
(02:50):
totally suitable for a student. So, you know, raising the
age to seventeen I think as aspirational. I think it's
a good signal that we value more learning is better.
But again, if those students aren't staying to seventeen, we
need to know where they're going because if they're just
going out to a pretty black future, you know we
pay for that, don't we? Down the track?
Speaker 4 (03:11):
What do kids miss out? Do you think they miss something?
Miss something, even if it's you know, jumping off before
year thirteen, do they miss something in terms of development
and I know, socializing and you know what the school
has to offer.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
Well, I think there's huge opportunities as you move through
a school into the senior school. You know what, if
you're engaged in your school, there are incredible opportunities. There's
leadership opportunities, there's the mentoring of the younger students. The
relationship of a school with it senior students evolves, doesn't it.
We handle our year nine students a little bit different
(03:48):
than we might we might our year twelve and thirteen students,
and that's just a part of the school. I really
enjoy is watching students grow and develop and mature through
the system. And you know they are they are great
young adults by the time they are leaving school. So
ideally you'd want everyone to experience that and have the
confidence then to go be successful at school and then
go on to those next stages afterwards.
Speaker 4 (04:09):
Well, it's a testament to you that you want to
keep them right through to year thirteen. Considering how absolutely
rammed Albert Grammar is with people, you could use the space,
couldn't you.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Well that's right, but I mean, you know that's our job,
that's our business, and you know, we'd like to see
everyone come right through from year nine to thirteen to
do five years of secondary education and then kick on
strongly after that.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Now, Patrick drum Headmaster of Mount Albert Graham, you might
not want a weigh on this. This is a weigh
in on this. This is a secondary topic that I've
been talking about. What do you say to people like
me who claim this is going back in time that
the cane was better than detention because you didn't miss
the bus home with the cane.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
You're setting me up here, aren't you. I was probably
at the school, probably earlier than you at my own schooling,
I suppose, so I know what you're talking about. But no, look,
Will's moved on. We've got to find other ways. You know,
we haven't got a great record on some of our
solutions in terms of physical solutions to things, you know,
(05:08):
in our communities, and I think we need to model,
let at school, these other ways to solve problems and
get the result we want rather than than I think
the Canes head its day put it that way.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I don't think I'm getting a lot of sport and
bringing it back from my kids.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Attention is working pretty well, hey, Patrick, Really good to
catch up with you. Thank you so much for your
time and we'll talk down the track.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Great to check all the business man.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, thank you. That is Patrick drum headmaster at Mounts
Albert Grammar.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
For more from News Talks b listen live on air
or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you
go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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