Full Show Podcast: 29 October 2025

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk said B.
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Speaker 2 (00:16):
Hello you, great New Zealander, and welcome to Matt and
Tyler Full Show Podcast number two to nine for the
twenty fourth of October. It's a Friday. It was a
funny old show today. Enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
It was light.

Speaker 2 (00:28):
We've had some quite intense shows lately, and that you've
got to describe that one is light.

Speaker 4 (00:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (00:32):
Great chat about Grannie Flats in some wedding photography. Ah,
I you shared a quite a story about some bad
behavior to winning.

Speaker 2 (00:41):
There's also some tortoise six. So I enjoyed the pod.

Speaker 5 (00:46):
Download, subscribe and give us a review.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
And give them a taste to Key you go see Basilla,
you go all right?

Speaker 1 (00:52):
I love you the big stories, the leak issues, the
big trends and everything in between. Matt Heath and Tyler
Adams Afternoons News Talk sed B.

Speaker 5 (01:03):
Very good afternoon to You're welcome into Wednesday show. Really
really good to have your company as always, thanks for
joining us.

Speaker 3 (01:09):
Get a mets get a Tyler gad eveyone Now.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yesterday when I was doing the radio show live, I
was also had one eye on the World series because
I'm a huge Dodgers fan, yep, and that led to
a poor performance of me from me on here.

Speaker 5 (01:23):
Well, yeah, that was pretty good man for multitasking iOS.
It was. There was a lot going on in that game.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Look, I just promised the Boss that I would turn
the TV off and not watch the Dodgers at the
same time. But that involves a little bit of help
from people at home, not texting in spoilers on nine
two nine two and telling me what's going on.

Speaker 5 (01:43):
Yeah, please don't do that. I know you think it's
a joke, but just don't.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Don't ticks through Otherwise I like to turn the TV
on and just watch that instead.

Speaker 5 (01:52):
And it's all going to go downhill.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
Hey, on another issue, you know, I'm always trying to
be a bitter person, a better person than yesterday.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yesterday I was watching the Dodgers.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
Well, I was trying to do my show, and in
overnight I thought, no, I've got to be a bit
of person, you know, and be one hundred percent focused
on the show. I'm nice watching the Dodgers, and I'm
always across my life and as most of us are
trying to be better than we were yesterday. And I
did something today that I'm not proud of, and I
want to try and.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Be better person.

Speaker 5 (02:20):
Okay, So I pulled up.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
I was taking my car into I had an accident recently,
so I was taking it to the Panel Beaters, right,
And so I pulled up and I was talking on
the phone, and then some guy started walking around my
car filming me. I was pulled up on the on
the other side of the road from the Panel Beaters
and this guy was filming my car.

Speaker 5 (02:43):
Odd behavior from him.

Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, I was just looking slide and he's like filming
me through the window of filming the car. And so
I got out of the car and I said, mate,
why are you filming me?

Speaker 5 (02:53):
As you would?

Speaker 2 (02:54):
And quite an aggressive tone I chose. And then the
guy goes, I assume you're here at this Panel Beater.
So I'm just assissing the car for you. I just
saw you pulled up. I ran the nice life it's played.
I thought, that guy across the road looks like he
needs me to assist. So this incredibly efficient guy from
the company came out from Panel and Pain and started

(03:18):
assisting the car, and I was in and out in
a second.

Speaker 5 (03:21):
Oh that poor fella, he was just doing his job.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
So the lesson I've learned from that is don't immediately
jump to conclusions and come in with an angry, rude voice.

Speaker 3 (03:33):
Just go, hey, hey, matey, what's going on?

Speaker 5 (03:35):
What's going on with that video camera?

Speaker 2 (03:37):
How are you feeling having to apologize profusely to the man?

Speaker 3 (03:40):
And he was a fantastic human being. So there you go.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
I'm going to be better from now on. I'm to learn
to listen to in the future. Just come in softly,
nicely until you know all the details. Don't come in
with the aggressive accusing someone of being paparazzi when they're
just trying to assist your car.

Speaker 5 (03:56):
What a great start to the day. That is life
advice for anyone out there someone's filming your car, just
just give them the benefit.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Of the doubt. This person says spoiler alert, baseball suck?

Speaker 5 (04:06):
Ah dare you so? Don't start off the ship. Matt's
trying to be a better person and you start off
with that sort of negativity. Think come on for.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
Your feedback, Texter. I don't agree that baseball sucks. I
love it, but I appreciate that you feel that way,
and I hope you have a great day anyway.

Speaker 5 (04:23):
Beautiful. Yeah, see look at your game mates. Right on
to today's show after three point thirty. Gareth abdenor Employment Law,
workplace and Information Expert. He is back with us. He's brilliant.
He only comes around once a month and this is
your opportunity to get free advice. If you go to
a lawyer for this sort of advice, it costs your thousands,
but for today only eight one hundred and eighty ten eighty.

(04:44):
Any issue you've got at work, if you're the boss
and you've got some problems with your employee, he's the
man to chat to.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, and get in early nine two nine two, send
them in. He'll be on the on the phone at
three thirty. But jump the queue if you've got an
employment problem, and look if it's a real good one,
then we'll bring you back and get you on absolutely.
That's after three thirty. After three.

Speaker 5 (05:03):
What small changes have you made in your life that
made a instant movement in your general wellbeing? This was
something that you decided to do. Was it this morning
or yesterday morning?

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Oh yeah, just quickly a little joys in your life
rearranging all the apps on your phone into tidy folders
and so you only have two screens. Yeap, oh my god.
Brings so much joy to your life. It's just cleaning up,
you know. It's like cleaning up the kitchen, cleaning up
the house, cleaning up your own cleaning up your desk.
It makes your life better. But little joys. I just
want to talk about that. One hundred and eighty ten eighty.

(05:35):
What a little simple things in your life that can
bring you satisfaction.

Speaker 5 (05:38):
That's going to be good. After three o'clock. After two o'clock,
rocket Lab is celebrating can you believe twenty years in operation?
This week the company has become the fastest in history
to launch fifty rockets into space. It's now valued at
over twenty billion dollars. So rocket Lab CEO and found
a Peterbeck. He was on with Mike Hoskin this morning
and Mike cast on this question.

Speaker 6 (05:57):
True that Kiwis are different in terms of work ethic,
their view of the world that you can spot at
Keywing and that's why a lot of internationals like Kewi's.

Speaker 7 (06:06):
Absolutely, but for the positive and for the negative. You know,
the one thing that I'm always you know, banging on
with Kiwis is that we just don't think big enough.
Like I can go to America and stand up in
a room and saying and I build a bigger space
company in the world and everybody cheers. I do the
same thing in the room in New Zealand and everybody
sort of goes, oh, I don't know about that, you
know what I mean. So that's one of the biggest

(06:28):
issues that we have in New Zealand, just like say
bigger and be more ambitious and get after it.

Speaker 5 (06:34):
And they've got a lot of support that comment on
the text machine as I understand it, but it is
I mean, it can be an impression in New Zealand
right this culture of no So is that really true?
And how do we push forward on that? And if
you have been a Kiwi working overseas, what is the
difference in Keiwi attitude?

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Yeah, yeah, because I think there is Okay, so I'm
not sure if it was always like this, but I
think there is definitely people that just line up to
assume something's not going to work. And you know, there's
tall Poppy syndrome in there as well, but there's also
incredibly risk averse people floating around. Yeah, so before you
even get the eye out, everyone's telling you why it

(07:10):
can't work. A lot of that before you even spend
some time just living with the idea and dreaming of
it and maybe fantasizing about it. There's already someone talking
about traffic management.

Speaker 5 (07:19):
Yeah, exactly. That is after two o'clock. But right now,
let's get into this new report from the New Zealand Initiative.
It's titled MMP After thirty Years. So senior fellow Nick Clark,
he was on with Ryan Bridge this morning and here
he breaks down a few of these suggestions that they've
had to try and make things a bit better. Are
you trolling us.

Speaker 8 (07:37):
Nick, No, No, it's actually quite serious. The four year
term is something which has been debated and isn't under
consideration right now. It's not a radical.

Speaker 9 (07:49):
There at all.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
Find that's fine, But what can one hundred and seventy
MPs do that one hundred and twenty can't.

Speaker 8 (07:56):
Yeah, we have a very small parliament by the standards.
Most countries are certain European countries around about our size,
and that are very successful countries. The Scandinavians Island, they
all have between around one hundred and seventy and two
hundred MPs, or around the same side you see on
the intense population. Now, the reason why to answer your

(08:17):
question is why do we need more here in New Zealand.
I think it's probably fair to say that we have
difficulty with select committees in terms of the ability for
them to properly scrutinize legislation. And that's partly because the
MPs that we do have available are so thinly stretched.
We have MPs that end up on city on multiple committees.

(08:38):
They can't get a good handle on what's going on
as much as they perhaps should. They get inundated with submissions.
It's a good idea, I think, to just spread the
load a bit more by having some more MPs. Also,
the electrics that we have are very large, both geographically
and in population terms, and they're becoming increasingly difficult for
MP to service the rather complex and intense needs.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
These extrememps will be electric MPs, not this ones.

Speaker 9 (09:04):
Some of them will be yep, yep, yep. We'd be
looking at the fifty fifty.

Speaker 10 (09:07):
Look.

Speaker 2 (09:07):
I don't think anyone's going to go for this, nick,
but I do like your idea of getting cabinet down
from fifteen twenty to fifteen ministers.

Speaker 3 (09:15):
We also have something like eighty portfolios.

Speaker 5 (09:17):
It's like the Grand Central Station trying to wrangle these
portfolio ministers.

Speaker 3 (09:21):
It's outrageous.

Speaker 8 (09:23):
Yes, absolutely, And you know we put out a report
a few weeks ago, a couple months ago maybe that
talked about this in more detail. But we have a bloated,
fragmented executor. It's really hard to tell who's responsful for what.
We need to get that executive down and size that.

Speaker 11 (09:38):
They also dominate, so a lot in there.

Speaker 5 (09:40):
And some of those bolder suggestions were the extra fifty
MPs that will make a few people bulk yep.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
Also a lowering the threshold from three point from five
percent to three point five percent, so it's easier for
parties to you know, get a seat in parliament.

Speaker 3 (09:58):
Personally, I think that's that's one I pushed back about.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
I think up at ten percent, if you can't convince
one in ten people to support you, then well what
are you.

Speaker 5 (10:06):
That would solve a lot of problems with them. I'm
not joking, you know, because as you say, there's three
point five percent. Any old weirdo, any.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Nutt can get three point five percent.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Exactly, just whatever crazy standing at the back looking stupid
party can could get three point five percent.

Speaker 5 (10:21):
Yeah, spot on. But let's have a chat about MMP
eighty ten eighty and I want.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
To talk about it even wider because is m MP
any good at all? You know, we was sold it?
When was it ninety six? It came in?

Speaker 5 (10:34):
Yep?

Speaker 3 (10:34):
Has it? Has it been more?

Speaker 2 (10:37):
You know, have people been served well by MMP? Do
we feel like that where the population has been heard?
You know, personally, I think it's less democratic than First
Past the Post was. I say, get rid of the
whole thing. Just go back to you know, you have
an MP for their electorate and they go to Wellington

(10:58):
and they you know, are affiliated with their party, but
they're also directly fighting for their constituents in their area
and the specific needs they have, which are very very
different if you compare what someone in Rodney might need
compared to someone down in Bluff.

Speaker 5 (11:15):
Yeah, get rid of list MP's altogether. I think most
of us can see list MP's. They just make up
the numbers. They don't care about any particular area of
New Zealand really large, just there to try and get
to one hundred and twenty MPs. Yeah, what do they do?

Speaker 2 (11:27):
You get some crazy people in there that they're only
in there because the party has decided that they should
be there. Yeah, you know, no one knows them and
no one cares about them.

Speaker 5 (11:36):
Yeah. Oh, one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the
number to car. Do you agree with match at MmpB
had abolished all together and you go back to first
pass of the post. I reckon you'll get a lot
of support for that idea. But even if you think
that MMP has still got some benefit, of course we
want to hear from you. But if there's any changes,
what I reckon nine two ninety two is that text

(11:57):
number back in the moment is twelve past one.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
The big stories, the big issues, the big trends and
everything in between.

Speaker 11 (12:06):
Matt Heath and Tyler Adams afternoons excus talks.

Speaker 5 (12:09):
That'd be it is twenty pass one. So thirty years on,
almost thirty years on. How do you feel about MMPs?
It's still working for you. Oh one hundred and eighty
ten eighty is that number to call?

Speaker 3 (12:19):
Bruce? How are you this afternoon? Welcome to the show.
Your thoughts on MMP.

Speaker 12 (12:24):
Gentlemen, What a pleasure to talk to you. Although I'm
surprised you have time to speak on the radio. I
thought you would be polishing your jack boots and practicing
your goose stepping.

Speaker 5 (12:35):
Are yeah, okay, right, okay, fair enough. I did a
lot of that at the weekend.

Speaker 11 (12:40):
Mate.

Speaker 12 (12:41):
No, look, I'm I'm taking out of the proverbial a
little bit. But you were saying about, well, one of
the things that you know, I understand you've got to
steer up a little bit of controversy to get things
the topic going, and you really and oh okay, and
but the whole thing about like, I don't let three

(13:03):
and a half percent threshold happen because you get all
the crazies and oh, I think the benefit of MMP
is the more wide spread representation you occasionally, the minorities
and the smaller groups that maybe hold a slightly less

(13:24):
mainstream perspective on things have to be listened to. And
I don't imagine for a second that that is a
bad thing.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
Well otherwise, just to push back on that a little bit, Bruce,
don't you think that we listen to them almost exclusively
now because they you know, people that don't actually need
to go through with a lot of what they say
and maybe have more extreme opinions make better headlines. So
under MMP we spend a lot of time listening to

(13:56):
minority views or extreme views.

Speaker 12 (13:59):
You're talking about the press as opposed to the political process.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 12 (14:03):
The political process is still run by white Europeans because
the biggest demographic in the country. The problem was first
past the post. Is that was all that was.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
The The deputy prime Minister and the last deputee prime
Minister weren't white Europeans.

Speaker 13 (14:22):
Were it?

Speaker 12 (14:23):
Well, it was that under EMMP. Gosh, gosh, have you
shot yourself in the foot there?

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Well, well, I'm just said, we're just having a discussion,
so I don't know, have I just but you said
it was pronominantly at the moment, it's predominantly run the
Sorry sorry I missed that, but sorry, yeah, you continue
the post.

Speaker 12 (14:43):
It's only ever going to be a white, middle class
European perspective that is running things.

Speaker 13 (14:50):
With m MP.

Speaker 12 (14:51):
At least some of the smaller demographics of the population
occasionally have a chance to get something, you know, to
sit at the table. Not as I don't agree that
the minorities who yelled the loudest get all the attention.
I think in the media maybe they do. But in

(15:11):
the political process, and don't think that happens.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, isn't the main way that the population experienced the
political process in the media and on social media?

Speaker 12 (15:25):
Maybe the I understand what you're saying there, but I
think that in the corridors of power that doesn't really
have attraction. It doesn't. I think that And anyway, you know,
to get a balance, sometimes this pendulum swings a little
far the other way. Doesn't mean we won't get to
a far more care and representative process by that happening.

(15:50):
The thing is, it's when people cannot have a voice,
that's when eventually and somebody famous who knew what they
were talking about and I can't remember their name. One
Wherever there's an imbalance of power, abuse will eventually happen.
And I think that there is some truth in that.

(16:12):
And where you have a where it's the majority demographic
is always represented in government as under first part of
the post, I think there is a stagnation of growth
and development and inclusivity. You know, we lack it lacks
the richness of all the diverse groups, either cultural or

(16:33):
you know, politically political viewpoints where they are continually shut
out under first part of the phase. I think the
benefit of m MP, and I know it's not a
very popular system globally, there's not very many at all
that do it, but I think it's been a good
thing from New Zealand because we've been able to maybe

(16:55):
shift away from the middle class white.

Speaker 2 (16:57):
But potentially but you say that everyone gets heard, but
what really happens an m MP is that you have
the opinion of the leader and the leadership of the
party and that's it. With first past the posts, then
people's electorates, and that the MP's had to deal directly
with their electorate and they were voted for in by

(17:18):
their electorate and they would you know, you go to
Wellington with what was important to where you are from,
and that is very very different even within a party.
The needs of different parts of the country are very
very different. So now wouldn't you say, Bruce, that less
there's less diversity of opinion under MMP then there was

(17:42):
under first past the post because we just really get
the opinion of national, the opinion of Labor, the opinion
of Act, the opinion of New Zealand first, and they
just everyone in the party's in line with what the
leader says.

Speaker 12 (17:56):
I think that's a very black and white take on
the actual political process. I think if you just looked
at it at face value, you might think that's what's happening.
But I do think that because I actually agree with
the whole thing about the list MPs, I think that
they are probably adding to that dynamic. I think if

(18:18):
we got rid of them and had more I do
think a larger representation of electorate purely electric MPs would
fix that that tendency, that problem. I'm not saying you're wrong,
but I don't think it's like massively unbalanced in that direction.
But I do think a larger number of MPs and

(18:40):
get rid of the list MPs would make that provincial
and local representation more clear at the national level. I
do agree with you about that.

Speaker 2 (18:52):
Yeah, well, thank you for you call, Bruce, and look
we'll get back to what was it polishing our jack boots.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
And goose stepping?

Speaker 5 (18:59):
Yeah sounds fun? Yeah, yeah, Bruce, thanks for kicking us off.
Good discussion. O A one hundred and eighty ten eighty.
How do you feel about MMP thirty years on. It
is twenty siven past one.

Speaker 11 (19:10):
The headlines and the hard questions. It's the Mic Hosking Breakfast.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Speaker 6 (19:15):
Less controversial than some of your higher school decisions and
subjects in the battle you've got going there?

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Is that fair?

Speaker 14 (19:21):
No, it's not controversial at all. I mean what we
have is a knowledge ritch curriculum. It's been a few
years in the making. It's carefully sequenced. It lays out
what students have to know and what they need to
be able to do, and it's consistent so that every child,
no matter where they go to school, they get access
to quality learning and it's exciting and engaging and it's
a really exciting day. Knowledge builds on knowledge builds on knowledge.

(19:41):
So we have to be teaching children knowledge so that
they can then work towards those higher order skills that
businesses and universities and everybody like.

Speaker 6 (19:48):
Back tomorrow at six am the Mic Hosking Breakfast with
the Defender News Talk ZEDB.

Speaker 5 (19:53):
News Talk ZEDB. Just quickly before we get to some
text and then the headlines. When Bruce said that it
lessens representation of you to first pass the post, but
if you look at MMP. I mean the twenty seventeen
election off and gets brought up. But it's very true
that New Zealand first, by nature of MMP, got to
dictate who was going to be in government, Labor or
National And you can't say seven percent of the vote

(20:15):
and I'm not even going to go at New Zealand
FIRS tape, but you can't say that's representative of the
general population and Democracy and the Green Party have never
ever been inside of cabinet. They've been ministers before outside
of cabinet. But if anyone can text through nine two
nine two a single policy that they've enacted over the
last ten years within government, please do so. Again, that's

(20:36):
not representation that if you'll put on the sidelines, even
if you do get ten percent because you can't make
a deal, how is that representing the minorities.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, you've got to say in twenty seventeen that was
a big decision with what was coming up very soon.
MMP is a dog. Half of our MPs are elected
by first past post, the other half are chosen by
party Hacks says the text. So we vote to determine
the MPs, but the government is formed by backroom dealings
no democracy, and that we need a system that the

(21:06):
government is determined by how the votes fall on the day.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
That way we get what we're voting for.

Speaker 5 (21:12):
Yir good text.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
It was seven point two percent that the New Zealand
first got of the vote in twenty seventeen.

Speaker 3 (21:17):
To be precise.

Speaker 5 (21:18):
Yet note very good boys.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
MMP gives too much power to smaller parties and promotes extremists,
something that it was trying to avoid bring back FPP.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
But Bruce, who rang before.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
Said that that's exactly what he wants, doesn't He wants the.

Speaker 3 (21:36):
Little opinions to be heard.

Speaker 5 (21:37):
Yeah, he was in support off of that, lowering the
threshold to three point five percent, which to me is
pretty concerning.

Speaker 3 (21:44):
This Texas said lads.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
MP was only voted and as it was the only
system in the ninety three referendum that had any publicity
behind it, it is certainly the most representative system. But
that is precisely the problem. From Winston playing King and
Queen maker to the rise of the influence of Loony's
and the Greens and Tipatimari. In order to appease potential
coalition partners, the larger parties have been pushed into the

(22:06):
middle of the political spectrum, get rid of it. That's
from Nico. So there was two referendums, wasn't there. There
was a refereement decide if there was going to be
There was a non binding referendum, then there was a
binding referendum and it came in ninety ninety six.

Speaker 5 (22:18):
Dinner, Yep, correct, yep, Bang on right. Oh, one hundred
eighty ten eighty is the number to CORP. We're also
going to catch up with our political correspondent Barry Sopa
very shortly and get his views on the proposed changes
to MMP and if it's still working. That's all coming
up headlines with Raylene.

Speaker 15 (22:34):
Next US talks, it'd be headlines with blue bubble taxis.
It's no trouble with the blue bubble. The Prime Minister says,
trade and rules based order will be front and center,
and discussions at APEC beginning in South Korea today. It's
attended by the leaders of China, the US and other
Asian and Pacific nations. The Reserve Bank has cut one

(22:57):
hundred and fifty four jobs since March, one hundred and
twenty four of them in Wellington, to a headcount of
six hundred. Israel's carried out strikes near Gaza City, reportedly
killing at least nine, claiming Hamas didn't hand over a
specified hostages remains. Harmas says Israel is fabricating pretexts to

(23:18):
again attack. Jamaica's government has declared the country a disaster
area as Hurricane Melissa belts out two hundred and thirty
kilometers in our gusts and pounding rain. The final chatterm
Island Councilor has been chosen by lot after two tied
at eighth, with Jenna Howard taking the place over. Aman

(23:39):
de Seymour Labor affiliated Ben McNulty has been selected as
Wellington's Deputy mayor, alongside Mayor Andrew Little countdown to come back.
Owner of the rut Icon Eyes its long awaited return.
You can find out more at Insinherrald Premium. Now back
to Matt Eathan Tyler Adams.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
Thank you very much, Rayleen, and we have been discussing MMP.
It's almost thirty years since it was introduced in nineteen
ninety six and the New Zealand Institute has suggested a
hugels some a bit bolder than others. I've got to
say to discuss further. We are joined by senior political
correspondent Barry Soper. Good to see you, Barry.

Speaker 16 (24:15):
Good afternoon, lad, it's nice to be here.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
So coming up on thirty years since MMP, let's just
look back. What was the mood in New Zealand that
led to this MMP change.

Speaker 16 (24:25):
Well, it was all most arrived at by a mistake
because David Longey made a comment in one of the
debates he was having with Jim Bolger that he would
like to see a change to the electoral system and
several options were put up because Bulger talked about his
word and did the right thing when he became Prime Minister,
and so several options were given him. First past the

(24:48):
post was out of the mix then. But you know,
we had this mixed member of proportional system. Nobody understood
it then. Unfortunately the tragics like me had to understand it.
So and it's not when you look at it, it's
actually quite an easy system to understand. So you have,

(25:08):
you know, the electorate MPs and list MPs and we
always thought at the time that list MPs we're going
to be a lesser strength MP than the elected MPs.
But it's not the case.

Speaker 17 (25:20):
They don't differentiate at all now, right, Yeah, So you know,
there seemed to be a big wave of enthusiasm for
it and was going to solve all the problems you mentioned.

Speaker 2 (25:31):
That there with the list MPs. Has it played out
as people expected? Has it played out as it was
sold in nineteen ninety five?

Speaker 16 (25:38):
Well, if it is a house of representatives, I think
truly it is representative. I mean we've had people off
the doll going into Parliament and we've had all sorts
nandor Tanchos, who now is of course a mayor?

Speaker 5 (25:53):
Yeah?

Speaker 16 (25:53):
And where was Itakatani? Yeah? And you know he used
to keep the four Court clean, brushing them with his dreadlocks.
And I often think.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
They're drunk in charge of a country, you know.

Speaker 16 (26:06):
I often think of Muldoon was around, he would turn
in his style in the sky to see what all
this was about. But look, it has delivered a representative parliament.
I guess I don't like the overhang very much because
some people are still not aware.

Speaker 11 (26:22):
We've got one.

Speaker 16 (26:22):
Hundred and twenty three MPs at the moment and the
quota normally is one hundred and twenty and this new
Zealand Initiative report said that in fact, they would like
to see fifty I think fifty more MPs. Well please,
I mean, I mean we've got enough to contend with now.

Speaker 18 (26:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
But they say that there's not enough people for the
select committees and that MPs are overworked, and that you know,
electorates used to be, you know, cover thirty five thousand
now they cover seventy thousand, and that other countries have
a similar size have more MPs. So is there is
there something in that? I mean, do you think select

(27:02):
committees are working?

Speaker 3 (27:04):
Yes?

Speaker 16 (27:04):
I do, Yeah, I mean select committees they in the
fifties replaced the old upper House that we used to
have in Parliament and so legislation is usually tested unless
it has introduced under urgency. But you know, I think
back to when it started MMP. You saw medea old

(27:26):
late friend Bob Jones started his party, the New Zealand Party.
They got twelve percent of the vote and I think
it was nineteen eighty one. They got twelve percent, which
is extraordinary really, and I'd remember saying to Bob at
the time, mate, you've escaped. Luckily you haven't won an
electorate seat, so you don't get any seats in Parliament,

(27:47):
and if you had occupied a seat in Parliament, you
wouldn't have liked it.

Speaker 5 (27:53):
I hated it. Yeah, what about this idea of lowering
the threshold to three point five percent? Is that going
to create all sorts of chaos of there's lonings that
get across that threshold and then make it even more complicated.

Speaker 16 (28:04):
But Dally, I think if you lower the threshold on
five percent is fairly difficult to achieve. And we saw
after John Key said that he wouldn't work with Winston Peters.
New Zealand first went out of office in two thousand
and eight for three years, but it's come back stronger
than ever now, So you know, there is a there's

(28:25):
always been an argument for a lower threshold, but I
think five percent is about right because you at least
you get I shouldn't say serious parties because a couple
of them that are in there now are not terribly
serious in my view. But so you do get a
few dregs in Parliament, and that's certainly the case at
the moment. But you know, I think it is representative

(28:48):
and I think five percent is the right threshold to have.

Speaker 2 (28:52):
So when you say it's representative, as Tyler was saying before,
is it representative when say, in twenty seventeen, National you know,
get the most votes. But then in New Zealand, first
Winston comes along and chooses Labor to be to lead
the government. So is that representative?

Speaker 16 (29:12):
Well, it's the first time it's ever happened under MMP.
I mean at that election, Bill English led the National
Party to a seven point lead over Labor on the
night of the election, and under normal circumstances you would
expect that it would be a Labor sorry, a National

(29:33):
government that would form the government. But you know it's
down to the negotiations and Winston I always said, you
better get used to the name justin durn prime Minister
because I always felt that Winston would go with Labor,
because people tend to forget that it was Bill English

(29:54):
that moved the motion to get rid of Winston Peters
from a National Party several years earlier. So Winston has
a memory and you know, certainly Bill English's future as
Prime Minister depended on that memory and it wasn't a
good one, so he never got the job.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Now, back when they were first talking about MMP, and
you know, selling it. There were some political now analysts
and people looking at the system were suggesting that it
wasn't really compatible with the Maori seats, you know, because
then you've got the system, but then you've got this
sort of system to the side of it.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
I don't think there's.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Any movement really happening now to get rid of those seats.
But how do you think that's played out? Because that's
led to the overhands and it's kind of a complicated situation,
isn't it. Within the Yeah, within an MMP situation, you've
got this other thing.

Speaker 16 (30:47):
You've got another thing. Look, John Key, you may well remember,
in the lead up to the two thousand and eight election,
said that he is going to get rid of the
Maori seats. When he got the job as Prime Minister,
he brought in the Maori Party to the government and
to me, that was his insurance policy that the Maori

(31:07):
Party that was formed of course by Tarry and Naturia
when she broke away from the Labor Party. You know,
she was of real strength in Parliament and a very
good MP. And I think John Key was quite deft
and doing a coalition deal with the Maori Party because
the whole of the country was covered. But as you say, Mat,

(31:31):
you know, the Maori seats are not really conducive to
m MP, but the scene is an add on and
we get to MP's in parliament added to as a result.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
So just finally, Barry, do you think if people knew
now what they know, whether they would have the people
that voted for mpeep would have gone for it.

Speaker 16 (31:50):
While I was against it, I was like winners and losers, and.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
You know in fun election nights where it's just decided,
they've got.

Speaker 19 (31:57):
So many losers becoming winners under the current system that
you may lose your seat doesn't matter buggery or be
in parliament anyway because the party likes me on a
high place on the list.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
But now I've got used to it.

Speaker 16 (32:10):
I actually quite like it because it is representative. There
are flaws in it and the other thing that they discussed,
and I know you're running out of time, but the
four year parliament, that's another thing. There won't be an
MP in the place that wouldn't vote for a four
year parliament, yeah, because they have a job for another year.
But it's not that simple. I think we have a

(32:32):
boom bust election cycle in New Zealand. So you know,
at the start of the three years they build on
what they campaigned on. The second year is normally a
policy year, and the third year is campaigning again. So
you've got boom bust elections and I'm an advocate for
four years as well.

Speaker 5 (32:50):
YEP. Seems to make sense. Barry. It's a fascinating discussion.
And thank you very much for your analysis. That is
our senior political correspondent, Barry Soper, taking more of your calls. Oh,
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. It is a quarter
to two.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Yeah, what do you think these proposed changes the MMP
and what do you think about MMP altogether as it
comes up to its thirtieth anniverse.

Speaker 1 (33:10):
Your home of Afternoon Talk, mad Heathen Taylor Adams afternoons call, Oh,
eight hundred eighty ten eighty News Talk, they'd be afternoon.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
It is twelve to two. We're talking about MMP thirty
years on. Does it need some tweaks or abolishment altogether?
Oh one hundred and eighty ten eighty. So number to
call this.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Text to us? Just who is proposing the changes?

Speaker 3 (33:29):
Please?

Speaker 2 (33:29):
I've missed the news all day, Brent, So who has
proposed the changes, Tyler.

Speaker 5 (33:34):
That is the New New Zealand Initiative. They're a think
tank and their senior fellow Nick Clark. So a couple
of those changes increase the number of MPs from one
hundred and twenty one hundred and seventy, reduced the threshold
to three point five percent, and a four year term.
Say some bold moves.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
There, Yeah, Gran Reeves, welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Your thoughts on MMP.

Speaker 4 (33:53):
Oh, hello, Math and Tyler, thanks for taking my call. Yes,
I'm an opponent of NBNP and I have been ever
since it was first mooted. And I go back and
as you probably know, I was an MP in nineteen

(34:14):
ninety when this matter was going through the process the
Royal Commission, which did a comprehensive survey of MMP. Their
recommendation was that the threshold be four percent and that
the Marii seats be abolished. Now that's not the proposal

(34:38):
that was put up ultimately for referendum. And the other
problem that I and others were concerned about at the
time was that the considerable constitutional change that's envisaged by

(34:59):
MMP should have been passed by a seventy five percent
majority rather than a bear majority.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
Right, it was fifty sixty. It was fifty six percent
in the end, wasn't it.

Speaker 4 (35:12):
No, well, on my understanding, it was about fifty three,
but fifty three whatever, Yeah, whatever percentage it is, Yeah,
it wasn't. It wasn't a resounding majority of the populations
who wanted to have MMPs.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Hey, we've just got to we've just got to quickly
go to an air break. Is it called if you
you just told over the air break and we'll come
back to you in just in just a couple of minutes.

Speaker 4 (35:39):
Yes, I've just added a cup of tea. Are you
doing that?

Speaker 2 (35:42):
Af you grabbed me one as well. There'd be awesome, Graham,
and we'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 5 (35:45):
Smart move. Thank you very much. Just told there. It
is nine to two Beck very shortly and back with Graham.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
Reeves, madd Heath, Tyler Adams taking your calls on eight
hundred and eighty eight. It's mad Heath and Tyler Adams
afternoons News TALKSB.

Speaker 5 (36:01):
News Talks there B. So when we went into the
air break, we're having a chat with Graham Reeves. Thanks
for holding on, Graham. Hopefully you've got your cup of tea.

Speaker 4 (36:09):
Yeah, I have, thank you.

Speaker 5 (36:10):
Now we've got about four minutes before the news. So
when we left you, you thought it should have been
the introduction of MMP. It should have been seventy five
percent in favor to get it across the line. Ended
up being about fifty three. You were against it. Then
you've seen what's happened over the last twenty nine and
a half years. How do you feel about the system now?

Speaker 4 (36:30):
Well, I feel even stronger in my position than I
did back in nineteen ninety. Quite frankly, the problem that
I see is that MMP was sold on the basis
that the voters had two votes of equal value. Now

(36:52):
that simply not true under the MMP system that we have.
And by the way, the MMP system was one devised
for the benefit of the Germans after the Second World
War to ensure that we didn't have another Adolf Hitler elected.
So it was the way to diffuse part from away

(37:15):
from the people instinct to that system. But anyway, that's
by the bye. So the two votes thing is a myth.
I mean, there's only one vote that really counts under
an MP, and that's the electric.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Vote, aside the part party vote.

Speaker 4 (37:35):
Party vote and because that determines the number of seats
that a party has in the parliament. So to that extent,
the role of electric MPs has been diminished in two ways.
First of all, out of one hundred and twenty seats
in the Parliament, roughly half of them come off a list.

(38:00):
So those lists, and I think other people have referred
to this compiled by the party hierarchy who rank it
allegedly in a democratic fashion, that we know that that's
not true either. So you've got half of the MP's
who don't represent the electorate but represent the party arpejects

(38:21):
if you like. The other problem is that the electric MPs,
goes back to the issues regarding their role, is that
the electrics now are so large that it's very difficult
for an electric MP to manage their electric population properly.

(38:49):
And if you look at the South Island another places
in particular huge geographic areas, impossible to have that very
important factor which is called the community of interest.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Yeah, well, thank you, Graham Red. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah,
very very good points. There have been some Grand Reeves,
who was.

Speaker 3 (39:10):
A Mirrama Member of Parliament for Mirama in the nineties.

Speaker 5 (39:15):
Yep, some well articulated problems as Graham Reeves saw an MMP.
But we're going to carry this on after two o'clock,
So taking your calls O. One hundred and eighty ten eighty.
How do you feel about MMP as a political system
almost thirty years on? Is it time to get rid
of it or does it just need a few tweaks?

Speaker 11 (39:32):
News is next talking with you all afternoon.

Speaker 1 (39:37):
It's Matt Heathen Taylor Adams Afternoons News Talks.

Speaker 5 (39:40):
It'd be welcome back into the show. It is seven
past two. Just a reminder Gareth Abden Or he's an
employment workplace in information lawyer and expert. He joins us
just after three point thirty. He's taken your calls and questions.
If you've got a problem in your workplace, he is
the man to chat to. It's always a popular segment,
so pays to get in early. Just flick us a

(40:01):
text nine to nine to two and Tyra will get
you on standby when Gareth joins us in about an
hour and a half to this discussion we were having
about our political system MMP. There's a new report that's
been released by the New Zealand initiative, and they say
that it is time for a bit of an upgrade.
They've had a few suggestions. One of those is increasing
the number of MPs from one twenty to one seventy.

(40:23):
Very controversial.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Yeah, not a lot of support for that.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
I mean, he actually gives good reasoning for it, but
not a lot of support coming through in the text machine.

Speaker 5 (40:32):
No, I don't think any support for that. No, yeah, yeah,
decreasing the MPs of anything. They also suggest a four
year political term. We've discussed that many times on this show,
and also dropping the threshold for MMP from five percent
down to three point five percent.

Speaker 3 (40:49):
Yeah, so all you have to do is.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Convince three point five percent of people of your ideas
and then you get into parliament.

Speaker 5 (40:58):
Yeah, sounds like a disaster to the me. But what
do you say, and do you think MMP still works
for us or is it time to look at other options?

Speaker 2 (41:04):
The sex It says, hey, guys, certainly not a fan
of MMP as the vote's always in out with a
watered down version of what the parties campaigned on, and
then the governing parties cannot be held to account as
they can justifiably reason that they didn't enact the policies
they were elected on. Example, Labor's news CGT policy will
never see the light of day in its current form

(41:24):
due to coalition negotiations. Regards Mark, this says, Hi, guys,
First past the Post and MMP both have issues. Wouldn't
it be great if you could vote for a main
party and votes say two minor parties they have to
work with. That way you could get national party with
Greens or multiparty et cetera. That way you would truly

(41:46):
get representation around decision making. This would stop tailwigging dog.
And also politicians say that they won't work with whoever.
That would be an interesting thanks, Julie.

Speaker 5 (41:54):
Yeah, I mean that's arranged marriage situation. Isn't it that
the voters say you have to work with whatever party
we decide by vote? Interesting ideas?

Speaker 3 (42:03):
Rich said, do you love MMP?

Speaker 9 (42:06):
I love MMP their time and I won't promise you
some of the last time, Matt, I will never forget
your name.

Speaker 3 (42:12):
Okay, that's right. It sounds like you've It sounds like
you've noted.

Speaker 9 (42:21):
Many years now over there when he was producing. But anyhow,
back to MT look to be honest to my way,
of thinking m MP is the best thing since flice Bread.
To be honest, the Bruce and were very sober. What
he said were absolutely true to a certain stent. Your
previous caller, who was an MP, was really telling a

(42:43):
number of half truths there now, MP, yes, we know
the back room deals. Of course, a back room deals.
First past the place had bigger backroom deals Rob Muldoon
and that from that quasi dictator from the Queensland who's
dead now, Joki the Lt. Pedersen. They were experts at
Jeri Mannering experts have been putting their mates on electoral

(43:06):
submissions so they're able to dictate what areas were bigg
enough for them, what areas were low enough for them.
I remember in the nineteen what it was at nineteen
eighty four or even before that, the seventy eight elections,
Bestell were in on thirty five percent of the popular vote.
Now if that's not jerrymandering on what they were doing,

(43:28):
which was absolutely upply corrupt.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Just seeking Richard, what what year was that, Richard?

Speaker 9 (43:35):
I think it was seventy eight or eighty one, It
doesn't make any difference, but national were in on the
lower popular vote. In other words, thirty five forty percent
whatever it was, and sixty percent of people didn't have
any representation at all. And when social critic came and
under the Kracknell and Bruce Beason and Gary Knapp, they
were classed by molder In as radicals in those days.

(43:58):
In fact, social I agree with one thing they'll do
in social credit. No one could understand that people could
understand MMP. How could they understand social credits. No one
understood what their policies were and how their monetary policies worked.
It was impossible. So m MP overall has been a
wonderful system. I believe that I agree with Barry Mary

(44:19):
Sofa A Bruce that it should be dropped from three
years ago, from three years to four years. I think
the what you call it the threshold of getting a
party in power should not go to three point five
four percent. With their very very good figure overall, and
the previous call even shot himself in the foot. They're saying, look,

(44:39):
the current system of MPs under the list system, it
doesn't make any difference what system, But due to the
geographic and tiny population of New Zealand has got a
lot you know, over worked. Well that's just shooting himself
in the in the foot that for their what these
news paint tanks they are saying, increase the number of
the MPs. Well, that's obviously the threat of the matter.

(45:02):
If they've got to increase their workload of too much
of their workload, increase the number of the MPs. It's
not wrong with that. But if you look at it
politics at the end of the day, that tyler politics.
No matter what system you've got, from an extremist of
a dictatorship to the most liberal systems perhaps of a
New Zealand or Sweden for argument's sake, politics is a sealthy,

(45:27):
stealthy game.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Deals that falthy game. So you don't think that small
parties whole disproportionate power in MMP.

Speaker 9 (45:38):
They don't. What Bruce was saying, your first caller, what
Bruce was saying is quite crack. What is said. On
the surface, it's a bit like a mudguard of a car.
It's all shiny on top and crap underneath. When it
comes down to when it comes down to the boils
of the everyday politics. The color, it's the fact that

(46:00):
you're using color with MMP, and they are always bought
in line. You've said it yourself. The Greens have never
had a minister inside cannas they head ministers outside cabinast.
But at the end of the day, going back to
first past the post would be just a simple black
and white situation with the.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
Well what do you think about list MPs though, because
isn't that a problem that you can't directly punish a
list MP because they're selected by their party. So if
you if you don't, if you don't like a particular
MP and your electorate, you can vote vote them out.
But the list MP's are you know that that that

(46:42):
is decided by the party and not by the voters.

Speaker 9 (46:45):
You could argue, well, the same thing you've just again,
is that you tillable again that you could say the
same thing around under first part of post. You look
at Jim Anderson and Marilyn are wearing they post their
party still the parties two to them.

Speaker 5 (47:00):
That brilliant question was Matt. By the way, Richard, I
just going to jump in there and say that, but
always nice to hear.

Speaker 3 (47:05):
From you, thanks Richard.

Speaker 2 (47:06):
So in nineteen seventy eight, National got forty seven point
six percent of the vote. Labor got thirty nine point
six and Social Credit got seven point four. So I
think Richard was talking about the nineteen eighty one election,
which is one that people thought was unfair because National
got thirty nine point eight percent of the vote and

(47:28):
Labor got forty percent of the vote. So National got
fifty one seats and Labor got forty, but Social Credit
under Bruce Beetham got sixteen point one percent of the
vote but only one seat.

Speaker 3 (47:39):
Yeah right, yeah, so that was you know, that was
complicated with.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
But then again you've got to say, as Barry Soaper
was saying before, then, you've got Bob Jones coming in
and he rigged the system by it with the New
Zealand Party and just took the vote away from National
because he wanted Rod Melbert Muldoon.

Speaker 5 (47:56):
Now, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
So there we were ways to control the system from
a minor part of minor party perspective, even back under
First Past the Posts.

Speaker 5 (48:06):
Yeah, very true. Oh one hundred and eighty ten is
that number to call? Do you think MMP still works
for us? Or is it time to look at other options?
It is quarter Bus two.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Your home of afternoon talk, mad Heathen Tyler Adams afternoons
Call eight hundred eighty ten eighty news talks'd.

Speaker 5 (48:24):
Be very good afternoons. Use So we've had MMP for
almost thirty years, now, do you reckon it's still the
best system for choosing our government? Of eight hundred eighty
ten eighty is a number to call, Chuck, welcome to
the show.

Speaker 3 (48:37):
Your thoughts.

Speaker 13 (48:39):
Well, I think it mostly works, but there's one defact
that's come real clear, and I'd like it to be
explained by Sunday. How do we get rid of the
overhang that the Maori Party is taking advantage of where
they get three basically three extra seats.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
Yeah, so the overhang works because I mean that the
idea behind the overhang isn't it is that if someone
doesn't get five percent, but they're winning more or of
their actual seats electorate seats, then it would seem unfair
to take away a seat of someone just because they
hadn't reached the five percent threshold. But Chuck, when MMP

(49:20):
was bringing out a lot of political analysalists at the time,
said that the Maori seats didn't really work within m
MP because that overhang really is not for it doesn't
quite work with those seats really in terms of the fairness,
because you can see the fairness of the overhand, can't
you If not? Really, I say there was if there

(49:44):
weren't the Maordi seats, and and a party got three
point five percent of the vote, but they but they
got four electrical electorate seats, then you would have to
take on one or two of those off them because
of their party vote hadn't go over the threshold.

Speaker 3 (50:00):
Do you think that that part of the overhang is.

Speaker 13 (50:02):
Fair, Well, it's hard to say. I'd like to find
the recommendation is to do with the overhang, isn't it.

Speaker 5 (50:10):
Yeah, But as you said, and Chuck, I think you'd
agree with this with a system like MMP that is
fairly complicated, but some would argue as a fairer system
in some ways. But when you've got that complication and
then you add in another element like those those multi seats,
then that creates something like the overhang being much more common.
So that would be the criticism there.

Speaker 13 (50:32):
It's not just the fact that there are Marory seats.
The Mary MPs say hey, just you vote for my seat,
my electric seat, but give your other vote to labor.
Are you aware of that?

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Not specifically, but but is you know, the the Multi
Party and has had the overhang?

Speaker 8 (50:58):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (50:58):
I think are they the only part I think that
the only party that's had the yeah, correct, So the
overhang has never come up for any other party because
it's so hard to win an electric see yeah, yeah,
exactly hard And really with the MP, the idea is
that a party that's never going to win an electorate
seat because that's hard, and they're generally speaking going to
go to the two big parties. And there are occasions
when it doesn't obviously, but the normals are go to

(51:19):
the big, big party. So the idea of MP is
that you get representation outside of the electric seats. So
it would totally make with it. Over makes sense with
an overhang, but it does get complicated when you have
the Maori seats. Yeah, absolutely, because you know, the Multi
Party is a small party that's much more likely to
win an electric seat.

Speaker 5 (51:37):
Exactly. You know, it's a massive complication to the system
we've So what did.

Speaker 3 (51:41):
Nick Clark, what did the what were the proposals around
the overhang.

Speaker 10 (51:46):
In this.

Speaker 5 (51:48):
Yeah, from the story I was reading in terms of
the overhang, So instead abolishing the overhang seats and again
lowering that party a vote three shold to three point
five to four percent. So by abolishing those overhang seats
and making it easier for those smaller parties or those
rogue parties to get into parliament just on that votes.

(52:11):
So that's I mean, that would remove what is quite
a complex an anomaly when it comes to m MP.
But this is where it all gets so bloody complicated
is the MMP is a far more complicated system. Who
has passed the post right. As you said, before you
win and you get you get the most votes, you
were in that electorate seat and if you get enough
electorate seats then you are in government.

Speaker 2 (52:32):
Very simple system, as very sober said, it's it as
a system that tends to reward losers. Yeah, exactly, not
necessarily losers in life, but people that lost, you know
it didn't win in various ways across the electorate have
ways of getting in. So that's why they're suggesting the
lowering of the threshold is because it makes sense to

(52:54):
get rid of the overhang. I can kind of see that,
but I think the problems with lowering the threshold is
you get more and more parties one issue parties or
parties with quite extreme views that can get find three
point five five percent of people that will follow them,
and then what happens is all we ever hear about
is the views of that three point five percent party

(53:15):
because they are the most extreme views and parties, so
they make the best headlines, they create the most drama,
and then the entire political discourse is based around people
that have very few followers.

Speaker 5 (53:25):
Yeah, the tail wagon the dog is they say? Oh
eight hundred eighty ten eighty is the number to call MMP.
It's almost thirty years old in New Zealand? Is it
still working? Love to hear your thoughts? Twenty three past two.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Matt Heathen, Tyler Adams afternoons call Oh eight hundred eighty
ten eighty on news Talk ZB very good afternoons.

Speaker 5 (53:47):
Use So almost thirty years of MMP and New Zealand.
Is it helping democracy work better here? Or is it
just making politics more messy and complicated? Oh eight hundred
eighty ten eighty is the number to call? LEO, how
are you?

Speaker 10 (54:00):
I'm good? Thank you guys. I don't vote in New Zealand.
I'm a resident, but I'm not a citizen, so I
can't vote. So none of this mess can be blamed
on me.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
You're well, you're a semi.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
You're an educated by semi outside of the observer, which
was an interesting perspective, Lea.

Speaker 10 (54:20):
But here's the thing I'll say. If there was twenty
there's twenty apartments in the block, and they want to
paint the front door a new color. Nobody they get.
Everybody gets the first choice and a second choice. Nobody
agrees on the first choice, but two people put yellow
as the second choice, so the door is painted yellow.

(54:40):
But an even more precise thing of MMP, imagine if
the Olympics, the gold and the silver and bronze medal
weightlifting medal guys are standing there, and then the bronze
and silvers say, you know, if we added our weight together,
we'd be heavier than him and we could get the
gold medal. That's exactly what MMP means. First, the post

(55:05):
bird past the post is. It's not perfect, but it's
far fairer because I remember when she who shall not
be mentioned, who's left the country now, thank god, But
when she got the job the first time because Winston
went with her instead of when the silver and bronze

(55:26):
joined forces. When she was doing the next election. She said, well,
when we won the last election, and it's like you
didn't when you came second. But it's the Donald trumping.
If you keep saying it over and over and over again,
people will believe whatever you've said. Oh no, he said it,
it's true. The MMP is it's ludicrous. And who put

(55:49):
MMP into play Winston Peters because he knew he was
never going to be in a big party again.

Speaker 12 (55:57):
So right, I know what I'll do.

Speaker 10 (55:58):
I'll create this system and then I will be the kingmaker.
It's just ludicrous.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Or you could argue that he was just a lot
better at playing the game than anyone else and jumped
onto m MP and understood it quicker than anyone else.
And those are the rules, and the better politician wins
within the rules that are being sick by the you
know the referendum that b.

Speaker 10 (56:22):
Not yes, you're you are one hundred percent correct. But
when Descinda got rid of him when it was the
COVID election and then she was doing her pulpit of
truth political broadcast every day and it's about air time
and he wasn't even in the Then the next election

(56:43):
when she says I don't have it in the tank
and leaves because she knows she hasn't got a hope
in hell's chance of getting in. She's gone. So then
Winston Wright, I'll go with them. It's just it is
first past the post isn't perfect, but it whoever gets
the most votes wins, because even the fact the threshold

(57:06):
was you had to get apparently it's sixty percent of
the vote.

Speaker 5 (57:11):
Well, which is I was just going to say quickly, Leo,
that's where some of the criticism from you may remember
in the UK, obviously it's the first past the post system,
and some of the criticism there is that whoever gets
the most seats doesn't necessarily get the most votes. I
think it was twenty nineteen the Conservatives, they managed to
get about forty percent of the popular vote, but enough

(57:33):
seats to get into government. So that is, you know,
that's big flour nine nineteen eighty one is we were
talking before Richard was saying. In nineteen eighty one, the
National Party in New Zealand got thirty nine point eight
percent of the vote and Labor got forty point four,
whereas Social Credit got sixteen point one, but National got
fifty one seats. Yeah, there's a big floor. So at

(57:56):
that point they.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Were only they were getting less than forty percent of
the vote, but getting one hundred percent of the power
as it were.

Speaker 10 (58:02):
Ye yeah, I mean, no system is perfect, we understand that.
But the ludicrous you know you've got I know this
is no disrespect to Winston Peters, but the fact that
the guy who gets what was the percentage.

Speaker 3 (58:16):
They got seven point two percent in the man who got.

Speaker 10 (58:22):
Seven well, let's say, let's round it up. The generous
the man who got eight percent of the vote to
the ground up the decision. Yeah, it's just it's just
if you saw this in a movie, you would stop
watching the movie. You go, this is just bs watching this.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
It's on Leo's system. You know you've got national that
could lift forty four kgs. Yep, You've got labor they
could only lift thirty eight kgs.

Speaker 14 (58:49):
Was it?

Speaker 5 (58:49):
Yeah, yeah, I think you're about right there.

Speaker 9 (58:51):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (58:51):
But Winston goes to the person that couldst.

Speaker 5 (58:56):
Heard on a podium and he's got an extra.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
Hey, together, we could lift more than the forty four cages.
It's interesting because a lot of people are sixing through
and seeing that twenty seventeen election result as being you know,
almost like the nineteen eighty one election result, where it
was just seemed unfair that National getting in when they
got so much, they didn't get anywhere near the popular vote,
and that sort of started the rumblings that then by

(59:20):
nineteen ninety six ended up with MMP coming in.

Speaker 20 (59:23):
Right.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
A lot of people here are looking at the twenty
seventeen vote and saying, you know that that system where
labor got in, when more people had wanted National and
more people sort of voted right leaning, you'd sent a
right You'd say, so that in a way that twenty
seventeen seems to be a bit of a rallying cry
for people that are anti MMPP. And yet in the

(59:47):
next election in twenty twenty one, everyone went labor rules
and just sent them in there.

Speaker 5 (59:54):
That is a very fair point. Yeah, nicely, nicely said, So.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
These people forgot their anger at the twenty seventeen result
pretty quickly.

Speaker 5 (01:00:01):
Would take more of your calls on oh, eight hundred
and eighty ten eighty coming up after the headlines with Raylene.
We'll have a chat to Diane and she loved ZMMP,
so that's coming up soon. Twenty nine to three.

Speaker 15 (01:00:13):
You talks at the headlines with blue bubble taxis. It's
no trouble with a blue bubble. The Prime Minister says
his goal for the APEX Summit starting now in South
Korea is meeting leaders and building relationships. It's attended by
the leaders of most Asian and Pacific nations, including China
and the US. The Greens are relaunching their call for

(01:00:35):
cannabis reform, five years after a referendum on cannabis legislation
narrowly lost the bid for change. The Reserve Bankers cut
twenty percent of its workforce to a head count now
of six hundred. Since March, one hundred and fifty four
jobs have gone one hundred and twenty four. In Wellington
police have seized records and documents and questioned three people

(01:00:58):
after claims keiw insurer Maritime Mutual breached sanctions by giving
cover to oil tankers flouting Western boycotts on Russia. Former
Axe stalwarts Don Brash and the Greens Madain and Davidson
are teaming up for next week's prestigious UK Oxford Union debate.
They'll oppose the idea the sun should never have set

(01:01:20):
on the British Empire. How the All Blacks can reclaim
dominance against Ireland. See the full column at endsid Herald Premium.
Back to matt Ethan Tyler Adams.

Speaker 5 (01:01:30):
Thank you very much, ray Lean, and we are talking
about a MMP system report out by the New Zealand
Institute says it's time for some changes. But the question
we put to you is is it actually working all together?
Do we need to abolish it and look at something new?
Oh eight hundred and eighty ten eighty.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
We're just talking to Leo before and judging by his accent,
I think he was from the UK, but he was
saying that he wasn't out to vote even though as
a resident and you can, as a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Are texting through.

Speaker 11 (01:01:54):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:01:55):
This is who can vote in New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
You're eligible to enroll and vote if you are eighteen
years or older, a New Zealand citizen or a permanent resident,
and you've lived in New Zealand continuously for twelve months
or more at some time in your life.

Speaker 3 (01:02:07):
So Leo, well, look you might be able to vote.

Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
Yeah, get down to your postal.

Speaker 3 (01:02:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
It's interesting because he knew a lot about the political
system but didn't know how he could vote exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:02:17):
Diane, you're a big fan of MMP.

Speaker 21 (01:02:19):
You love it, Yes, I do do love it. I
think it's far better system. The other system was just
terrible and it was imbalanced. This is a more Yeah,
I love it the way. It's just it's just great.
You know, a more women are getting recognized now. Wolf's

(01:02:42):
like Tamia Teria, remember I remember her, And yes, more
women are doing much better. And that other lady for
the Education department, she's on quite a bit now and
you know she's a very strong person. She's in the
National Party, so you know, yes, no, I think that

(01:03:05):
more women are being heard and some toe it's just,
you know, the other side was just it was ruled
by men most most of the time.

Speaker 3 (01:03:18):
And then you don't like me, you don't like me,
and Diane, No, I'm.

Speaker 21 (01:03:23):
Just sort of like, well, it was unjust the way
it was.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Do you think it should You.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Think that Parliament should be fifty to fifty men women?
Would you support that? Being that in the electoral system
that it was fifty to.

Speaker 21 (01:03:35):
Fifty fifty fifty, well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:40):
Have to be fifty slightly more. I think I think
as men die younger that there's slightly more women. So
it was going to absolutely represent the demographic precisely, to
be just slightly maybe half a percent more women.

Speaker 21 (01:03:53):
Yes, I could go along with I could go everywhere.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
All right, all right, that's enough MMP gender m m MPG.

Speaker 5 (01:04:06):
Nicely.

Speaker 3 (01:04:06):
Don remember proportional gender the gender balance.

Speaker 5 (01:04:10):
That was very quick, mate. Well i'm mpg B all right,
we'll put that into the ecronyms. Thank you very much, Diane.
Lovely to hear from you, Pete. What do you reckon?

Speaker 22 (01:04:21):
I think EMM and greson mediot hold of Leo and
sitting him back to where he comes from.

Speaker 5 (01:04:26):
Oh, beata beat are you here on a you're on
a phone call there? Mate? That sounded like what a
spicy conversation.

Speaker 22 (01:04:33):
No, no, just having them on. But I'm all for MMP.
It's a good system because you know, yeah, you don't
want to have a dictator bit like Piggy Mole doing
it was all his way, and know when we don't
want to end up that situation again. I think what
we have now, it's all over in Europe, the Netherlands
and Quadra, a few other countries have it too. So
I just got to bite the buller and say It's

(01:04:54):
a good idea because what do you do you like
the do you like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
That all the deals that happened behind closed doors at
the end of the election, you have the election night,
it's been voted, but you don't know just by looking
at the numbers, who's going to lead the country. You
when Ston Peter's is going to knock on Jacinda's door,
he is going to knock on Bill English's door and
then then then decide who's going to lead you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
You don't mind that part of it.

Speaker 22 (01:05:17):
No, it's all part of it. You know, it's all
down negotiation, negotiation when the end of the day in it.
So everybody blames old Winnie of what happened when he
when he got on the flavor, But he's already going
to get a bleeding nose if we're enter the ring anyway,
So what would you do that? So that Bill English
had got together used as head, he might not like
Old Winnie that much. The national is still going to events.

(01:05:38):
I don't blame Bonny Winnie what happened in two thousand
and seven. If people don't realize that it's not wanting.
I'm not going to enter a ring and beating up
before he even get into the ring. Am I that's simple?

Speaker 23 (01:05:49):
Really, No, No, that's not it.

Speaker 3 (01:05:52):
That's not a smart mood.

Speaker 2 (01:05:53):
But yeah, I mean, you know, as Barry Soap was
pointing out before that, that deal with Bill English and
when Ston Peters might have had something to do with
the fact that Bill English voted was part of the
movement to vote when he out of the National Plat
quite a few years before that.

Speaker 3 (01:06:10):
Hey, thank you for your call, Pete. Appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (01:06:12):
Yeah, thank you very much. If you want to send
a text nine two ninety two, is that number plenty
coming through that one? Oh, we have already read that one.

Speaker 2 (01:06:23):
I would like to see the current mixed member disportionate
all right, I would like to see the current mixed
member disproportionate system replaced with a simple direct proportionate system.
For each one percent of the national vote, you get
one seat. Some people disagree with that because that would
enable the crazies to get in and distable parliament. Well
look at what we have now, tom So if you

(01:06:44):
can rustle up one percent, then you get a seat.
So there's one hundred percent one hundred seats in parliament
or two hundred or whatever percentage you work out it
is and if you get if you get if there's
one hundred seats, yep, you get one percent, you're in.

Speaker 5 (01:06:57):
Should we just give it a try for one year
and see how it goes.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
You get seventeen, but I guess you miss out on
the halves. Yeah, so you might get someone that gets
seventeen point nine to nine percent.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
They don't get to that.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Workout you round up Swedish rounding, you'd end up losing
a certain percentage of seats like it wouldn't end up
being You'd have to have a system to deal with
the fact that people aren't going to be getting exactly
one percent, ten percent, fifteen percent. They're all going to
get percentages of that or decimal points of that. Yeah,
therefore that vote would kind of disappear and you wouldn't
end up with one hundred seats, would you.

Speaker 24 (01:07:29):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:07:29):
Very true. It sounded easy.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Yeah, so there would have to be It would be
a little bit more complex than just what percent did
you get?

Speaker 5 (01:07:36):
It would be pretty one hundred. Yeah, I mean that
the parties that would come through at one percent. Holy
h but fair idea O eight on hundred are.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
You could rustle up one percent of the vote Tyler
with a Tyler Adams agenda.

Speaker 5 (01:07:48):
How many people is that? Would you vote for me?

Speaker 10 (01:07:50):
Mate?

Speaker 5 (01:07:51):
I'd vote for you, buddy, Thank you mate. Yeah, I
think I get pretty close to zero point two percent.
Maybe oh one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the
number to goal. It is eighteen to three.

Speaker 3 (01:08:01):
Back in the mow, the issues that affect.

Speaker 11 (01:08:04):
You and if it have fun along the way. Matt
Heath and Tyler Adams afternoon.

Speaker 5 (01:08:08):
Excus talk afternoon too. So we're talking about the MMP system.
It's almost thirty years since it came into play in
New Zealand as a time for a bit of a rejig.
Can get your thoughts, Harry, you reckon, it's gone pretty well.

Speaker 14 (01:08:23):
I do.

Speaker 11 (01:08:25):
In my view.

Speaker 25 (01:08:27):
What we don't want is what's going on in the
United States where one side of the argument has so
much dominance that their whole political system is under threat
by the MMP has done in New Zealand as it's
disabled the extreme left and the extreme right. If you

(01:08:50):
look at the influence of what New Zealand First has done,
they held the Labor Party back from heading off down
the Greens track, and in the if you look at
the right side of the argument. I think they've been
immediating some of the more extreme issues of act although

(01:09:11):
actors improved a lot in the last several years. Myself,
I'm a person who swings around the middle, and I
think that's the intelligent position because it means you're thinking
about what's on offer all of the time. The only
thing that I would say that's wrong with MEMP is

(01:09:32):
that I believe that all infrastructure votes should be conscient votes.
And I say that because that would require all of
the parties to consult.

Speaker 3 (01:09:43):
Sorry, Harry, what votes should be conscious votes?

Speaker 26 (01:09:46):
All votes, all infrastructure votes? Okay, right, yeah, right, because
what actually happens is that with our infrastructure, the favor
Party was inmates and decisions, the National Party gets.

Speaker 25 (01:10:02):
In and unwinds them. The obvious one is the ferries
across cock Strait. But it you know, those sorts of
things wouldn't happen if they were conscious votes and parties
had to work together.

Speaker 18 (01:10:12):
Did you think it?

Speaker 2 (01:10:13):
Do you think that that can be a bit of
a problem though with m MP, where you end up
just getting one opinion per party as opposed to first
past the post when you know a different electorate you know,
like the electorate that's defferentely getting the fairies. Either side
would would campaign very strongly from a perspective of being
the MP for those areas and as opposed to you

(01:10:36):
just have to take the Labor line, you have to
take the National line, the New Zealand First line or
the Act line. There's not really a diversity of opinions
across Parliament anymore.

Speaker 25 (01:10:47):
Well, that's my point. If the first past the pope
post there's only one party and power and sometimes yes, but.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
They have to in first past post. You you know,
in first past the post, say, for example, within the party,
you'd have a left wing. You'd have a left wing
of the party and a right wing of the party.
And you know, in a first past the post system,
these politicians that might be going off into a smaller
party would be would choose to be part of the
bigger party, but advocate within that party for their side

(01:11:17):
of political spectrum.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
If you see what I'm saying.

Speaker 25 (01:11:20):
But we do see what you're saying. Yeah, but the
problem with your version is it's either a right wing
party or a left wing party that you know, so
you have the same problem. You've only getting one of you,
if you have a conscience, those on it, all of
the parties in Parliament, and I'm only restricting this to infrastructure,

(01:11:43):
all of the parties in parliament. I really have to
agree for you to get a decent infrastructure decision, which
should the parliament change, is more likely to stay in place.

Speaker 2 (01:11:56):
Right, I see what you're saying. And is that a
confidential vote?

Speaker 24 (01:12:01):
Yeah, well, I.

Speaker 25 (01:12:03):
Wouldn't worry to me whether it's confidential or public. You know,
people have to see where they stand because.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
We're better confidentially though, wouldn't that because you'd have you'd
have a party whip going around and going you're going
to you'll get it, You'll get it made if you
vote against the party lost.

Speaker 25 (01:12:17):
Yeah, well, you know, I mean that's a load of
crap again, isn't it. You know, the reality of it
is that having to tow the party line all the
time is leading, in my view, to you know, controlled
by the right of the left.

Speaker 10 (01:12:32):
You know.

Speaker 25 (01:12:33):
You know, my biggest skier scary situation would be a
labor Green's coalition forming government. You know, it wouldn't be
quite as bad as the National Act thing that In
both cases though under M m P you know, I
have to say that Winston and his mates have actually

(01:12:55):
managed to a miligorate the worst of both sides, and
it's given us a more steady or more centrist position
down the middle.

Speaker 2 (01:13:03):
That's interesting, So that that is something because that's the
other side of it, because one side of people are
saying Winston Peter he gained the system and he has.
He has destroyed the electoral process over the over since
nineteen ninety six, and then other people like youself say
that he's just by virtue of who he is, he's
tempered the excesses of all the parties.

Speaker 3 (01:13:23):
Over those time.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
So do you think that would continue if there wasn't
a Winston Peters? If there, you know, have we been
lucky to have Winston Peters could have been a different
a different populist than there.

Speaker 25 (01:13:35):
We have been lucky to have Winston Peters. But it's
more likely to happen in the MMP system than the
first past the post system. The reality of it is,
you know, Winston has ameliorated the extremes of both sides.

Speaker 5 (01:13:51):
Yeah, I mean he's called himself the handbreak Winston on
some of those stupid ideas, But last stupid ideas according
to Winston, and I think many people would agree that
perhaps some of the ideas the Labor Party had weren't
weren't going to end up too well. And I think
look to be fair, we saw that when they stopping
with more than fifty percent of the vote and had
total power, and some ideas that were made after that.

Speaker 2 (01:14:13):
We'll judge about heaven of the next election. I think
people missed the handbreak a little bit.

Speaker 5 (01:14:19):
Yeah, I think you're right, judging.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
How swiftly they were bundled out after they'd been able
to do whatever they want. That people did miss their
their handbrake. A bunch of people are texting and won't
you please mention STV single transable vote. Okay, I'll mention
that next or this is going to be good.

Speaker 5 (01:14:36):
It is nine to three.

Speaker 3 (01:14:37):
Well, I don't really have anything to mention about it.
I'll just mention it, okay, but I'll be listening again.

Speaker 5 (01:14:41):
I'm interested.

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
It's going to be amazing.

Speaker 20 (01:14:43):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:14:45):
The issues that affect you and a bit of fun
along the way. Matt Heath and Tyler Adams Afternoons News
Talks V.

Speaker 5 (01:14:53):
Very good afternoon, Jue. It is six to three, so.

Speaker 2 (01:14:56):
It'll be no discussion without MMP in first past the
post if we didn't mention STV, which was also an
option in the referendum back in the mid nineties that
got us MMP.

Speaker 3 (01:15:08):
It works.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
It's used in some of our local body elections voter
as rank candidates and multi member electorates one, two, and
three seats allocated by preference until all are filled, ensuring
proportional outcomes within each district. The problem with it is
it takes ages for people to explain it to other people. Yeah,
you know, MMP is pretty complicated, but s TV. I mean,

(01:15:30):
I guess when mp first came and everyone was I
going to get it, I don't get it. And then
and there's people that have never you know, it took
a long time before people voted strategically in MMP.

Speaker 5 (01:15:39):
Right, good point.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
Yeah, if He's TV had been in there by now
thirty years later, we would have.

Speaker 3 (01:15:44):
Worked it out.

Speaker 5 (01:15:45):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
But it is quite hard to explain and quite hard
to count on the night, and it arguably weakens party accountability,
I guess, because you know, it shifts the focus to
the individuals that you're voting for and ranking.

Speaker 5 (01:16:02):
Yeah, nothing's perfect. Just when I thought you had it sorted.
There's always a flaw in the system. Got time for Chris, Yeah, Chris,
we've got about ninety seconds.

Speaker 20 (01:16:12):
I'll rush through this real quick.

Speaker 23 (01:16:13):
So I live at Australia and live in a different
system to New Zealand, and the situation here is like
that gentleman said, the second and third places on the
podium can actually offset the winner. So for example, if
National win you know, forty percent of the vote, and

(01:16:34):
then the Labor and the Green combined in this electorate
at the sixty then whoever was the first place person
will get their preference and then be the seat holder
for that. And that's that's why I don't like the
Australian system because it's very rare that you get an

(01:16:54):
MP who might be a local champion into parliament. So
that's why I like the MMP that we have back home,
because we still have the first past the post part
when it comes through voting for you your local candidate. Yeah,
so you've got eight of them. Well, you know, if
you win thirty percent and nobody else passes you, you

(01:17:15):
get that. I like that, And then the party vote
gives you the opportunity to make sure that you want
that party in power because let's say, for example, in
my local literate here, I really like the labor person
as a person, but I probably wouldn't have a vote
for that as a party.

Speaker 5 (01:17:34):
Yeah, sounds complex, Chris. Thank you very much for out
of time, but appreciate your call very much. Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
Yeah, well, you go.

Speaker 2 (01:17:42):
A lot of people hate UMP, a lot of people
love it, but it seems no one wants more politicians
in parliament.

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
Yeah we can all agree on Yeah, thankfully we can
agree on something. Thank you very much to everyone who
phoned and text on that one. Just a reminder, in
about thirty five minutes we will have Gareth Abdena on
the show, Employment Lawyer taking your calls and questions. Get
an early news is next.

Speaker 1 (01:18:07):
You go home for Instateful and Entertaining Talk. It's Mattie
and Taylor Adams afternoons.

Speaker 11 (01:18:14):
On news Talk Sebby.

Speaker 5 (01:18:16):
Very good afternoon shere it is seven past three. Really
good of your companies.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Always Now at the start of the show, I see
no spoilers are nine to nine two? What's happening with
the baseball you did? And Dodger Stadium and Los Angeles
The Blue Jays versus the Dodgers in Game four of
the World Series. The Dodgers currently up two to one
in the series. Exciting, and I was because I wanted
to go home and watch it, right yep. But then

(01:18:41):
the bloody news of course, you know, just got spoiled
in the news sports. Who would I mean, baseball is
getting so popular in New Zealand that it makes the
sports news, you know, the developments in Game four of
the World Series, and in the text machine so many
people earlier and before I shut it down.

Speaker 3 (01:18:59):
Yeah, we're texting in how much they follow baseball, how
much they have baseball.

Speaker 5 (01:19:03):
But you know, now I know, now you know, and
now I'm nervous, and it's on every telly out there
in the sports department. So I saw you trying to
avert your eyes as you're walking through to do your business,
so to speak.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
Anyway, let's go Dodgers, come on as code Todches beat
these nasty Canadians with their nasty fans, with their nasty
mean chance.

Speaker 5 (01:19:24):
I'd love putting it into the Canadians. But that is
very exciting right into this one. This is going to
be an interesting discussion. So Rocket Lab celebrating twenty years.
Can you believe it? In operation this week the company
has become the fastest in history to launch fifty rockets
into space. How good It's now valued it over twenty
billion dollars. Rocket Labs portfolio includes missions for NASA and

(01:19:45):
the US Air Force Space Command, which is me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:48):
It's so cool when you know, I was a kid,
if I wouldn't have ever imagined that New Zealand could
get into the space industry, that we would ever be
even in the conversation, let alone, you know, kicking ass globally.

Speaker 5 (01:20:02):
It's unreda space.

Speaker 3 (01:20:03):
It's something that we should all just be so extremely
proud of.

Speaker 5 (01:20:06):
Absolutely so, Sir Beck was on with Mike Hoskin this
morning to have a chat about those twenty years, but
he was asked about the impression of KIWI workers internationally here.

Speaker 6 (01:20:15):
It is true that Kiwis are different in terms of
work ethic, their view of the world that you can
spot at Kiwi and that's why a lot of internationals
like Kiwis.

Speaker 7 (01:20:25):
Absolutely but as for the positive end for the negative,
you know, the one thing that I'm always banging on
with Kiwis is that we just don't think big enough,
like I can go to America and stand up in
a room and saying, and I build a bigger space
company in the world, and everybody cheers. I do the
same thing in the room in New Zealand and everybody
sort of goes, oh, I don't know about that, you
know what I mean. So that's one of the biggest

(01:20:47):
issues that we have in New Zealand, just like say
bigger and be more ambitious and get after it.

Speaker 5 (01:20:53):
It's a nice line, isn't it.

Speaker 10 (01:20:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:20:54):
I think there is a bit of that.

Speaker 2 (01:20:55):
I don't know if there was always that way in
New Zealand, that there was just this muttering and people
being celebrated for coming up for reasons why things can't happen,
just not being willing, not being willing to think big.

Speaker 24 (01:21:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:21:08):
Talked about this on the show Before You Think about
Bruce McLaren for Nomble. You know he was I'm going
to build race cars yep, and you know I'm going
to enter them in Formula one.

Speaker 5 (01:21:17):
And he didn't care. He just pushed on through and
said if you don't think I can do it with
stuff you because I don't need you on Bruce McLaren,
and I'll do it myself. And same with Peter Beg.
But it is it feels like and this is a
question going to put to you, this this idea of
a no culture in New Zealand, whether it's got worse
or whether it's always existed, But it seems the more
that you hear about these these people with big ideas

(01:21:38):
and big plans, the likes of Peter Beck, for example.
Now I think he faced that in his early days
when he said I'm going to create this company. It's
going to launch rockets into space and I'm going to
do deals with NASA and all the rest of it,
and a lot of people who are interviewing it at
the time said, yeah, right mate, good luck to Yeah,
you know, I like your ambition, but it's never going
to work.

Speaker 2 (01:21:57):
I find it depressing if we've become like that in
New Zealand. Maybe we've always been like this, I don't know,
but no, I don't think we have. But it's depressing
because if we're not the lily little country that can,
the little country that could, then we don't have chance
unless we dream big and go hard and risk it
all for the big results that you know, as a
little country, you're not gonna You're not going to remain

(01:22:18):
one of the richest countries in the world like we
are now that has this fantastic, you know, standard of
living that we have. I know, we'll complain and say
that it's hard, and yeah, sure it is, and it
can be, but we're doing a lot better than most
countries in the world. That that's quantifiably you know, that's
subjectively true. So is it true as New Zealand becoming
a nation of no If so, what can we do

(01:22:39):
about it? And have you lived in other countries or
work with people from other countries who have a different attitude,
and what is that attitude? I was thinking about Americans
and you know that's.

Speaker 3 (01:22:48):
What New Zealanders do. We think about Americans? It could
be part of our problem.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
So much of our political discourse is based on what's
happening in America because that's where the social media companies
come out of and that's what the algorithms support.

Speaker 3 (01:23:00):
But I was thinking about America, and America is.

Speaker 2 (01:23:04):
Best when it's ethos is something like this. The worst
thing that could happen is that something awesome doesn't happen.
The risk for them is that the thing they are
working on isn't spectacular doesn't turn out spectacular, that that
risk of lameness for them has been held higher than
all the other risks involved in trying to make something happen.

(01:23:26):
They've been concerned for a long time that the next
thing has to be bigger and better than the last thing,
or it's a failure. And I sometimes think we don't
have that in New Zealand. I don't think we have
that mentality. We value all other potential risks ahead of
the risk of something either not happening or being lame.

Speaker 5 (01:23:42):
Yeah, it's very nicely pot Someone pictures.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
Something like Beck saying, and then people just want to
list the risks, but really the bigger risk is that
space Lab doesn't exist.

Speaker 5 (01:23:57):
Yeah, yeah, very true. Oh eight one hundred eighty ten
eighty is the number to call. Love to hear your
thoughts on this? Are we a nation of no And
if you're a key with you who's lived overseas, worked
over seas, what was your impression of how they operated
wherever you worked? Love to hear your thoughts. Nine two
ninety two is the text number. Twelve past three. His
talk said, be very good afternoon, ture. It is a

(01:24:19):
quarter past three, so is New Zealand a nation of
just saying no. It was after an interview Mike did
with Sir Peter Beck. Rocket Lab is celebrating twenty years.
But he mentioned in that interview that the problem with
Kiwi's in his eyes is that if he walks into
a room full of Americans and says I'm going to
build a beautiful new rocket, They'll all chair and say
well done, go get him. And if he does that

(01:24:41):
into a room full of Kiwis, they'll say, ah, yeah,
good luck with that. I don't think it's going to work.
So is he right? And if you've worked overseas as
a key, we watch the attitude like to success where
you've operated one hundred and eighty ten eighty.

Speaker 2 (01:24:53):
The sext says people get social credit for stopping things.
We're talking about social credit before the party, but not that,
not Bruce Bethan and Gary Knapp, was that the social
that's right, people, Gary Nap. People get social credit for
stopping things. If they can knock you off your perch,
they will, then they are the hero for doing it.
This Texas is people in New Zealand celebrate stopping things,

(01:25:14):
shutting things down, And this Texas is every meeting we
have at work is someone putting up an idea and
a bunch of my workmates showing how smart they are
by saying why it won't work. Well, where's your freaking idea?
Wasn't freaking I've censored that? Then where's your freaking idea?
And then I've put up mine? You don't have one.
All you have is the same reasons why things shouldn't happen?

(01:25:34):
And where do we go from there?

Speaker 3 (01:25:35):
Nowhere? There's a great song, where do we go? But nowhere?
Nick Cave.

Speaker 2 (01:25:41):
It's like the capital gains taxes this text to knock
people down, to help the people that won't help themselves.
There's always someone to save, never celebrating the people that
move us forward and make our country a better place.

Speaker 3 (01:25:54):
Texts Josh, welcome to the show.

Speaker 24 (01:25:56):
Yeah, hey boys, Yeah, I think about this a lot. Actually,
you know the number eight why are mentality?

Speaker 27 (01:26:02):
And you know, I really like when people are innovative
and they come up with new ways and means of
dealing with sitt.

Speaker 24 (01:26:08):
In things, you know, And I think where we're at
at the moment is most of us are quite busy surviving,
so much so that it's very hard to get involved
in creative type work. Either that or it's very hard
to get the resources and the money to actually get

(01:26:31):
anything off the ground. And I know we were talking
about the capitalization of small businesses or enterprise earlier in
the year, and it just seems like, let's say you
got these young and up and comers, they got some
really great ideas, but will they even be afforded the

(01:26:52):
time and the space and the resources to make it happen.
And that seems to be almost like an economic handicap,
where you know, will it ever happen? Well, it's only
a fantasy unless you have the resources and the ways
and means to sort of make it happen.

Speaker 2 (01:27:13):
Well, don't you have to say so any size of endeavor, Josh,
do you think you need cheerleaders? So even if it's
just a very very small thing amongst friends, let's go,
let's go and do this, let's let's let's you know, you,
do you think that the cheerleaders help even even without

(01:27:33):
the capital.

Speaker 24 (01:27:35):
I look, I don't make I think that, like, because
of course you want feedback, right, so you want to
balance ideas of people and stuff like that. But there's
no point talking to a baker as an example, you're
looking for good feedback from a mate who's a baker,
and you don't know anything about the industry you're talking about,

(01:27:56):
so it's kind of like it's a it's a it's
a non event top of situation. I think what happens
is generally when people don't have money, in order to
keep your idea going, you throw your ideas out there.
Unless you're lucky, someone will back it.

Speaker 27 (01:28:14):
If you're unlucky, your ip can be taken, you know,
and then you're left knowing that you see an idea
that somebody else.

Speaker 24 (01:28:28):
Ran with and you can benefit from it at all.

Speaker 9 (01:28:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
Well it was one of those things, isn't it. You've
got a risk. I mean, there's always the risk that
you're going to be ripped off.

Speaker 5 (01:28:40):
Yeah, but that's it. I mean, that's one of the rests.
As you called, Josh, Yeah, thank you very much. O
one hundred and eighty ten eighty is the number to call.
Plenty of texts coming through. Are we a nation of
no And if you've operated overseas and being somewhat successful,
love to hear your take on on the attitude of
success wherever you worked.

Speaker 2 (01:28:59):
This country has so many negative naysayers. They seem to
go against down number eight y attitude, hard to saw
like an eagle and you fly with turkeys.

Speaker 3 (01:29:09):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:29:09):
Yeah, but are we even claiming to have a number
eight fencing wire mentality in New Zealand anymore? I don't
know if we're even at least we used to believe that. Yeah,
but do we even believe that anymore?

Speaker 5 (01:29:21):
Come on through, Oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty is
that number to call twenty past.

Speaker 3 (01:29:24):
Three space lab?

Speaker 11 (01:29:25):
Does Matt Heathen Tyler Adams afternoons?

Speaker 2 (01:29:32):
Call oh, eight hundred eighty ten eighty on News Talk ZB,
Very good afternoon.

Speaker 5 (01:29:37):
Sure it is twenty two past three.

Speaker 2 (01:29:40):
Yes, I kept calling it space lab instead of rocket lab.
Apologies to the great New Zealanders involved in rocket labs.
Space Lab was the course that punishing reusable the paporratory
that was developed by the.

Speaker 3 (01:29:53):
European Space Agency.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
Yeah, it was used on it was you know, it
was all mixed up with that punishing space channel.

Speaker 5 (01:29:59):
Yeah right, little mere copper there.

Speaker 2 (01:30:02):
But I can't believe I'm misnamed space rocket pretty pretty
similar dead name terms rocket lab. Sir Peter Beck will
forgive you, I think now just quickly.

Speaker 5 (01:30:13):
There's a few people talking about Sir Peter Becky was
on with Mike Coskin. We played that audio before, but
here it is again talking about the attitudes of New Zealanders.

Speaker 6 (01:30:23):
True that Kiwis are different in terms of work ethic,
their view of the world. That you can spot at
KIWI and that's why a lot of internationals like.

Speaker 7 (01:30:31):
Kiwi's absolutely but for the positive end. For the negative,
you know, the one thing that I'm always banging on
with Kiwis is that we just don't think big enough.
Like I can go to America and stand up in
a room and say I'm going to build a bigger
space company in the world and everybody cheers. I do
the same thing in the room in New Zealand and
everybody sort of goes, oh, I don't know about that,

(01:30:52):
you know what I mean. So that's one of the
biggest issues that we have in New Zealand, just like,
think bigger and be more ambitious and get after it.

Speaker 5 (01:31:01):
So as you're right, and I think you said it
very nicely before, Matt, that number eight y mentality we
certainly used.

Speaker 15 (01:31:06):
To have it.

Speaker 5 (01:31:06):
Do we still have that?

Speaker 11 (01:31:07):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (01:31:08):
So you've got your dream and you make it happen.
You think big, and you go hard.

Speaker 5 (01:31:12):
The obstacle is the way.

Speaker 2 (01:31:13):
The biggest problem is that the kids are taught that
it's okay to be average. It says NICKI, it's just
too hard to excel, so sad and definitely not what
we should be teaching our kids.

Speaker 3 (01:31:24):
I think there is a lot of that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:25):
I think there is a lot of trying to not
make the people that are average feel bad by bringing
down the people that are really spectacular or ambitious to
their level. And the best way to bring the high
flyer down is to undercut them with negativity. And that
happens all the time, just in workplaces anywhere. You can
sit there and you can see someone getting ahead of

(01:31:46):
you within your company, and the best way to make
them not succeed is just to find out reasons. So
often these people that bring up safety, for example, they're
not bringing it up purely because they care about people's health.

Speaker 3 (01:32:00):
They bring it up because that's.

Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
A great way to undercut someone's great idea by just
shoving so much admin and problems at it that it
can't happen.

Speaker 5 (01:32:08):
People need to be shamed ter or how you mate
not too bad?

Speaker 20 (01:32:13):
I thank you. Guys are perpetuating a bit of a
negative that isn't actually the reality. I think Peter Beg's wrong. Okay,
what's the greatest measure of business success? Basically that's the
wealth that you create.

Speaker 2 (01:32:32):
Correct, and the about of people and the products, the
quality of the products that you create, and the people
that you employ.

Speaker 20 (01:32:42):
But the basic measure of success across the world is
how valuable is your company? How much money are you worth?
Those things that you've just essentially come from having a
good product, from having a good group of people, they
are not essentially the measure of success. But my point

(01:33:05):
is that with the actually as a country are one
of the wealthiest in the world. We're certainly up in
the top of that list. We however, have more billionaires
that with a b perhead of population in the United States,

(01:33:29):
we have nearly twice as many billionaires.

Speaker 3 (01:33:33):
Is that a good thing or a bad thing in
your eyes?

Speaker 20 (01:33:36):
Well, it's got to be a good thing because those
people have reached for the sky. They've granted big o.
We so we actually have more people of population already
doing that. Are not your direct comparison between the attitude

(01:33:57):
of those people in the US or in this case,
they say day and we say nay. But the facts are,
we have more billionaires to a population.

Speaker 3 (01:34:09):
Than that unless unless the name unless unless Darryl.

Speaker 2 (01:34:13):
As we're saying that the nahing is a recent thing
as opposed to a historical thing.

Speaker 20 (01:34:20):
No, I would dispute that. Again, most of those billionaires
are fairly recent, So you can't use that absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
Graham Heart. Graham Heart's made us money a while back,
but keeps making more.

Speaker 5 (01:34:36):
Peter Beek Obviously, sir Peter.

Speaker 20 (01:34:39):
You can't use the idea of it being a new
or old thing as an excuse one way or the other.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
Yeah, well, Darryl, interesting, New Zealand has three point three
seven billionaires per million people, whereas the United States has
eleven point nine billionaires per million people, so they actually
do have more. We've got three points there.

Speaker 20 (01:35:00):
Where are you getting your information from? What is the
total number of billionaires in the US?

Speaker 2 (01:35:06):
I'm getting my information from the other room, from a
producer that's just a very good research Who's on the
other where's that information from?

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
You go?

Speaker 5 (01:35:14):
And t Irish? He's working fast.

Speaker 3 (01:35:17):
Vermont Vermont Business Magazine.

Speaker 20 (01:35:22):
Now I have information that's contrary to that. Sole true
for discussion and then around.

Speaker 5 (01:35:29):
That Darrell, Sorry, but decide the point just quickly, because
look if what you say is true, and will take
your word because Tyra turns some good research back there.
But did those billionaires become successful because of New Zealand
or in spite of it? And I love this country
absolutely do. I just want it to be better. But
were they individuals who were so extraordinary but they tried

(01:35:50):
their best to get their business off the ground in
New Zealand and may have faced, like Peter Beck, too
many no's and said, bug of this, I'm going to
take my business housewhere because people actually believe in me
and invest in me in other parts of the world.
So is that the case when we look at the
billionaires who have succeeded in New Zealand.

Speaker 20 (01:36:07):
Look, I think that's actually a very short sighted question.
I think that I mean, you take a look at
the content of New Zealand as a nation. If you're
going to become a billionaire, you have to look outside
of it. Anyway. You cannot essentially be able to produce

(01:36:28):
enough of anything in a way that's going to then
give you a billionaire spaces without it involving some overseas inclusion,
be that where you sell or where you build, or
a combination of both. You just couldn't do it. The

(01:36:49):
country is not big enough, you know, our EP isn't
big enough for there to be the creation of one
billionaire every year through our own market. It's just not possible.

Speaker 3 (01:37:01):
So yeah, I thank you for your call, Dorel. Yeah,
you do absolutely have to go big.

Speaker 2 (01:37:05):
I guess what I would push back on slightly though,
as you know, saying that that the nay saying has
changed enough. But we can track that our productivity is
slipping in New Zealand and has been been dropping off
a cliff in Australia as well for quite some time.
So we do have a productivity problem. Yeah, absolutely, But
whether that directly equates to billionaires. I mean, when you
talk about insane things that happened, you've got to say,

(01:37:27):
Sir Peter Jackson's pitch to make all three of those
Lord of the Rings movies whilst the same time starting
with a digital You know, that guy's ambition was huge.

Speaker 3 (01:37:39):
That guy's ambition was right up there with Rocket Lab ambition,
you know, to.

Speaker 5 (01:37:43):
Be a fly on the wall on that meeting with
it was new line Cinema, wasn't it. Yeah, I mean mage,
I don't know what he said to that executive to
get him across the line, but it was phenomenal. I mean,
the guy is an absolute legend.

Speaker 2 (01:37:53):
And you've got Graham Graham Hart who took some mass
of punts to get from where he started, which was
right at the bottom to the right at the top.

Speaker 4 (01:38:01):
You know.

Speaker 5 (01:38:01):
Yeah, yeah, very true. Right, good discussion, Thank you very much.
We've got to leave it there because we've got Gareth
Abden or standing by employee lawyer taking your questions. If
you got any issues at work or a curly question.
Here is the man to chat to. Get on the
phones right now, oh eight hundred eighty ten eighty and
if you want to send a text nine two nine
two headlines coming.

Speaker 15 (01:38:19):
Up news talks at the headlines with blue bubble taxes,
it's no trouble with a blue bubble. Provisional stats and
Z figures show population growth slowed annually to June in
all sixteen regions, with births and deaths contributing more than migration.
Wellington lost seventeen hundred more people than it gained, but

(01:38:41):
Auckland's population grew one percent and Canterbury's one point one.

Speaker 3 (01:38:46):
The Greens are.

Speaker 15 (01:38:47):
Posting an online survey asking people how cannabis laws should
look to reduce harm. Five years after a referendum narrowly
lost the bid for change, Wellington mayor elect Andrew Little
has picked labor affiliated Ben McNulty to be his deputy
as he organizes his new council. Police and Gisbone investigating

(01:39:08):
the death of Bill Manghi on September twenty nine are
asking for sightings of a silver Hyundai Sonata stolen from
Ormond Road the night before and recovered just last week.
The number plate is a FN two one five. Farmac
is now funding another medication for ADHD, helping combat a

(01:39:29):
supply shortage powers struggle. Global energy firm fights plan to
mine off Taranaki coast. Read more at Enzaid Herald Premium.
Back to matt Ethan Tyler Adams.

Speaker 5 (01:39:40):
Thank you very much, Ray Lane.

Speaker 15 (01:39:42):
So.

Speaker 5 (01:39:42):
Gareth Abdenor is an employment, workplace and information expert and
director at Abdenor Law. He joins us once a month
to answer any curly questions you've got in your place
of work or if you're the boss. And he's back
with us now Gareth today, Gareth Giddy, Gareth Garrath, We're
just beaming down to our Christchurch studio. Gary Garriy do

(01:40:07):
you like Gary? Gareth?

Speaker 3 (01:40:08):
I wonder if Gary can hear us.

Speaker 2 (01:40:09):
I'll read out the first question here, yeap, Gary, Gareth,
there is we heard something Gareth little Okay, let's try
the first question and see if he jumps in work.
Has stopped us bringing dogs to work? Says this text
on nine two ninety two was actually mentioned in my

(01:40:32):
first interview as a plus that we could bring dogs
to work. And one of the reasons I work here
now I have to get dog here, dog care daycare,
dog dog day here, doggy daycare, right, is what said
in an interview binding. There's nothing in my contract, but
we had a long discussion about it in the interview.

Speaker 5 (01:40:52):
Gareth, did you get that one?

Speaker 28 (01:40:54):
I did?

Speaker 5 (01:40:54):
Oh, mate, nice to have you with us. I didn't
want to have that question myself. Gareth, Wow.

Speaker 28 (01:41:02):
Yeah, as a as a dog owner myself, it'd be
great if you could dogs to work, but not everybody's
that keen on it, And depending on the type of
workplace you know, it may no longer be appropriate to
have pets in the workplace. If there's nothing in the
employment agreement, it would really come down to whether this

(01:41:25):
became a term of employment or not. I expect it
would be a policy, and as long as the employer
has a genuine reason for it, I think they'd most
probably be able to change it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:38):
Yeah, because it says there's nothing in the in the
in the contract. I mean, it might just be a
little bit of a bony contention and trust back and
forth with the person and employed You.

Speaker 5 (01:41:48):
There might have been a doochy on the carpet at
one stage and the rights revoked.

Speaker 2 (01:41:52):
It seems to be happening more and more that Why
is there a sudden movement across businesses to not have
dogs at work?

Speaker 3 (01:41:57):
Because there used to be dog Friday here.

Speaker 28 (01:41:59):
You were thinking there were more accidents on the carpet.

Speaker 3 (01:42:02):
Well, my dog Colin did did layer dogs. He had
an ear under Tracy Donaldson's desk and a ready hoodeche.

Speaker 2 (01:42:10):
When I was working there, she was heavy with that.
She was she was a dog lover, so she was
very cool about it. And when when Colin actually went
missing a few months later, she came out and helped.

Speaker 9 (01:42:20):
Me look for him.

Speaker 5 (01:42:20):
Oh she's good. There Tracy, Yeah, yeah, but still yeah
but of a pushback.

Speaker 28 (01:42:24):
Gareth, Yeah, I'd be inclined to look at being able
to take your pet to work as a privilege. I'm
surprised at how many places allow it because a lot
of people aren't into pets and they may have an
issue with other people's pets being in the workplace.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
So if it's not in the contract, it doesn't matter.
If it's mentioned at the work interview. Of course, lots
of places go, ah, this, this place is like a family.
You'll you'll fit right in, and then you get there
and it's not like a family. It's like a workplace
and you don't fit in.

Speaker 28 (01:42:55):
So it's a dysfunctional family.

Speaker 2 (01:42:58):
So if it's not in the contract, then it's not
It hasn't been negotiated as it would that be Would
that be correct?

Speaker 28 (01:43:05):
If only it was that simple. It's a bit of
a great and depending on exactly what was said, you
could argue that it was part of your term of employment.
But you know, if it's not in writing, I expect
there's going to be two different recollections of what was said.
I'd be more inclined to focus on why is the

(01:43:26):
employer changing the approach, what's the justification or reasoning behind it?
And I think as long as they can back that up,
they're likely to be in quite a good position.

Speaker 5 (01:43:37):
Yeah, very good. Oh eight one hundred eighty, ten eighty.
If you've got a question for garethe's with us for
the next fifteen minutes, so you better get in quick.
If you've got a problem in your place at work,
or you're the boss and you've got a question about
an employee, now is your opportunity back in a mo
It is twenty wonder four.

Speaker 1 (01:43:55):
Matt Heath Taylor Adams with you as your afternoon rolls
on Matt Heath and Taylor Adams Afternoons news Talks.

Speaker 5 (01:44:01):
The'd be eighteen to four. We are joined by Gareth Abden,
or Employment Workplace and Information expert and director of Ebden
or Employment Lawyer. He's taking your questions and plenty are
coming through. One ninety two.

Speaker 3 (01:44:14):
This is this is a funny one. This isn't really
a question for you. I just thought it was a
funny text.

Speaker 2 (01:44:17):
What if they lie in the advert exciting fun workplace
and it turns out in fact not to be an
exciting or fun workplace. This is a very It's hard
to quantify. It's pretty subjective, isn't it. Whether it's an exciting,
fun workplace.

Speaker 5 (01:44:30):
Careth false advertising?

Speaker 28 (01:44:32):
Yeah, I think the hunters and the word work it
was exciting and fun, they'd be calling it fun or play.

Speaker 5 (01:44:40):
Exactly ninety two is that text number. But if you
want to get to the top of the q O,
eight hundred and eighty ten eighty is that number to call.

Speaker 2 (01:44:49):
Mister Abdenall. I'm working at a satellite a depot for
a large blue chip company and have been for eight years.
My manager threatened me and other workers that if we
needed to, he would bring us back to the main depot,
which is seventy five kilometers away. We have said that
our main workplace of work is the satellite depot and
he can't do that, can he? Or are we correct

(01:45:10):
that our main place of work is legally our workplace.

Speaker 3 (01:45:13):
That's from Terry.

Speaker 28 (01:45:15):
Yeah, it really depends on what's in the employment agreement.
Most employment agreements list the place of work, and if
it lists the satellite office, then that's the place of work.
Of course, you've got to be careful that you don't
win the battle and lose the war. As I always say,
if you get into a dispute with your employer, chances

(01:45:36):
things aren't going to end well for you, because ultimately
the company could restructure, close that satellite office and either
offer you a role in the main site will make
you redundant. So yeah, so you might be technically correct,

(01:45:56):
but yeah, I'd be careful as to how you approach it.

Speaker 2 (01:45:59):
So what happens when offices If a business moves head
office to another city, just what happens there. So they've
said that this is your workplace and then they move
the workplace, you know, three hundred kilometers away.

Speaker 28 (01:46:12):
Yeah, if they if they move it to that degree,
that would be considered a substantial change to the position,
and it would be more canto a restructure type situation.
What I see far more often is where the business
premises moves from one side of town to the other,

(01:46:33):
and then you have to look at is it still
reasonable for the employee to travel a bit further? And
that often you know, it's it's not straightforward, it's not
a black and white answer, and sometimes it does end
up being that you know, you you took the job

(01:46:54):
because it was just around the corner from where you live,
and you end up having to commute if they move.

Speaker 5 (01:47:02):
Complex Ross, you're going to question for Gareth.

Speaker 18 (01:47:08):
My husband Rob Newton had an injury workplace injury on
the twenty seventh of March. We've now had obviously as
we went along the way, it was fizzio and then
it was to call the Cours zone injection and now
they've said, okay, we need to go in for surgery.

(01:47:28):
Obviously that goes in through the public health system. We're
fortunate to have a very good specialist that's been helping
us through this. My issue is, and the worry is
that twice we've been called into his workplace and they've today.
We were in today and they said they want to

(01:47:48):
terminate him through to being medically unfit. So that's from March.
Now we're just waiting. We've been in on fifteenth of
October to the hospital. Obviously you wait for these things.
It's now causing quite a bit of stress. They now
want me to give them a date of when how

(01:48:09):
long it's going to be before he comes back into work.
We don't know for the operation. What we do know
is when he has a surgery at six weeks in
a sling and then after that it's obviously the reab
on the shoulder, and I'm now thinking, what is my recourse.
Do we worry that they can do this, Do we

(01:48:30):
go and speak some legal advice from some employment lawyer,
or is this fair enough? Because it is from first
of April, so that's quite a few months April, May, June, July, August,
septeenth of October, so that seven months now the hospital

(01:48:51):
surgeon has given him till the twenty seventh of January.
I do understand it's a long time. He works in
traffic controls his dominant right hand, and that's the injured.

Speaker 28 (01:49:05):
Hand I situation, And firstly, I'm sorry that he had
this accident. The general rule is that if a person
is away from work for an extended period of time,
depending on their role, at some point the employer can

(01:49:26):
consult with them to find out if they're likely to
be fully fit to return to their role and when
that's likely to be. Now, it sounds like the employer
is going through that process and that is something that
they are entitled to do. They haven't yet terminated the employment,

(01:49:49):
but as you say, this has been more than six
months that he's been away from his job, and it
would likely be considered fair and reasonable for the employer
to ask for more information.

Speaker 5 (01:50:03):
Good luck.

Speaker 28 (01:50:03):
Depending on the business, they might be able to keep
the role open longer or they might not. But definitely,
where where there's a risk like this, I would be
inclined to go and get some legal advice so that
your advisor can look at the situation and give you
specific advice.

Speaker 10 (01:50:24):
Okay, I appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (01:50:26):
Well, Ross, Yeah, yeah, that is a tough situation to
be in. Nineteen ninety two is the text number. But
we'll go to Matt here, get a Matt. You're on
with Gareth Oy.

Speaker 29 (01:50:37):
Look two questions. I was given a changer of contract,
which I had been there for the first and next month,
they would have completed the first six months at a
week or so ago. They gave me another fixed contract

(01:50:58):
and that's for super amount of time until the next
half way through next year. Now I understand that after
six months to get your sickly. Now by me signing
another contract before my first one expired, does that re
skeet it?

Speaker 16 (01:51:19):
No?

Speaker 28 (01:51:19):
No, Generally that wouldn't reset the clock as long as
it's the same employer. It's your geration of employment that matters.
Now there's a few red flags in what you've already said, Matt.
Casual employees are often not truly casual. So it may

(01:51:42):
maybe that you, while you were given a casual employment agreement,
you went actually a casual employee, and so you may
you may already be a permanent, part time employee. The
next thing is if you've been given a fixed term contract,
I'd be very interested to look at the reason why
it's a fixed term contract. Employers can genuinely have it

(01:52:08):
for term if there's a specific project or if they
only need assistance for a certain period, but sometimes employers
don't understand that and use a fixed term for other reasons.
But you know, your question was about sick leave, and
I'd say, if you sign this contract, it would be

(01:52:28):
unlikely that that would reset the clock, and I would
be very surprised if that was the case. As long
as you remain employed by the same employer and have
been there for more than six months, you should get
that entitlement to paid sick leave.

Speaker 5 (01:52:43):
All the best, Matt. We've got about sixty seconds, Gareth,
Maybe time for one more quick text.

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):
My husband's boss has been deducting the workers hours for
not filling in their online timesheets properly, example, ducting two
hours for each day not clocked in correctly. One worker
was deducted eight hours for the week two hours per day.

Speaker 3 (01:53:01):
For not clocking in correctly. Can a boss do this, Gareth, Yeah,
that's pretty dodgy.

Speaker 28 (01:53:09):
The more appropriate course would be to have a disciplinary
process for failing to follow instructions to complete your timesheet.
Of course, if you don't complete a timesheet then the
business might not know how much you've worked and so
it might be difficult for them to pay you. So
we need some more information there now.

Speaker 3 (01:53:28):
Very bit of a Fred Flinstone situation to me, certainly
does Gareth.

Speaker 5 (01:53:32):
Always a pleasure to have you on. Thank you very
much again for coming in and we will catch again soon.

Speaker 28 (01:53:37):
Sounds good, Thanks guys.

Speaker 5 (01:53:38):
That is Gareth Abdenor, director of abden Or Employment Law.
His website if you want to get in touch is
Abdenorlaw dot Nz and just quickly. The content of the
segment is general in nature and is not legal advice.
Any information discussed is not intended to be a substitute
from it for obtaining specific professional advice.

Speaker 1 (01:53:57):
It is eight to four The big stories, the big issues,
the big trends, and everything in between.

Speaker 11 (01:54:04):
Matt Heath and Tyler Adams afternoons used talks.

Speaker 5 (01:54:07):
It'd be news storks there be. It is five to four,
and that is pretty much us.

Speaker 3 (01:54:15):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:54:16):
I thank you so much for listening everyone. It's been
a fantastic show. And look, I'm not sure what's happening
in the Dodgers situation, but I've seen that Harry and
Megan are attending the game. Oh nice, that's surely a curse.
It's made me very, very concerned with how my team's going.

Speaker 5 (01:54:33):
There's a nice ticks here. Give that man Heath an
intentional walkout of the studios he can catch up with
the game. I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:54:41):
All right, The great and powerful Heather Duplessy Allen is
up next. But Tyler, why, my good friend, would I
be playing this song from Pearl Jam better man?

Speaker 5 (01:54:50):
Is this because you mentioned at the start of today's
show that you're making a real effort to be a
better man, slightly better each day, which is a wonderful philosophy.

Speaker 3 (01:54:59):
Yeah, I was.

Speaker 14 (01:55:00):
I was.

Speaker 3 (01:55:01):
I got angry at a guy for filling for filming
my car.

Speaker 2 (01:55:05):
I jumped to conclusions and I said, why are you
filming my? Then it turned out that I was in front.

Speaker 24 (01:55:10):
Of a a.

Speaker 3 (01:55:14):
What do you call it? Panel beaters and he was
evaluating the car.

Speaker 2 (01:55:18):
It's a wonderful story, but hey, you see so much
online of people filming people and you think it's for
some kind of content.

Speaker 5 (01:55:25):
Yeah, it's a weird thing to do, but he was
just doing his job.

Speaker 2 (01:55:29):
But we'll all be better men and women if we
take the positive evaluation of any situation instead of the
negative one.

Speaker 5 (01:55:36):
Right beautifully said, Yeah, what a tune.

Speaker 3 (01:55:38):
So I felt bad. I felt bad for going why
are you filming me?

Speaker 5 (01:55:41):
But you're a better man now I.

Speaker 3 (01:55:42):
Am a better man hopefully.

Speaker 5 (01:55:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:55:45):
Anyway, you seem busy everyone, so we'll let you go
until tomorrow afternoon.

Speaker 3 (01:55:51):
Give him a taste of KeyWe from us.

Speaker 5 (01:55:53):
I love you

Speaker 1 (01:56:27):
For more from News Talks at b Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.

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