Entrepreneurs: Cutting Waste in Healthcare Billing + Blind Spot Assessments with Matt Seefeld and Kevin McCarthy

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following is a paid podcast. iHeartRadio's hosting of this
podcast constitutes neither an endorsement of the products offered or
the ideas expressed.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
My mind always is watching for the next business opportunity.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
I call it the North American healthcare system, which has
been broken. I'm in prison. I had to ask some
really hard questions.

Speaker 4 (00:19):
I'm Richard Gearhart and I'm Elizabeth Gearhart. You've just heard
some great tidbits from our show. Stay tuned for the rest.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Ramping up your business. The time is near. You've given
it hard, Now get it in gear. It's Passage to
Profit with Richard and Elizabeth Gearhart.

Speaker 5 (00:39):
I'm Richard Gearhart, founder of Gearhart Law, a full service
intellectual property law firm specializing in patents, trademarks, and copyrights.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
And I'm Elizabeth Gearhart, not an attorney, but I do
marketing for Gearhart Law. And I am the founder of
gear Media Studios, a full service podcast studio.

Speaker 5 (00:55):
Welcome to Passage to Profit, the Road to Entrepreneurship, where
we talk with entrepreneurs and celebrities who tell their stories
about their business journey and also share helpful insights about
the successes that they've had. We have a very special guest,
Matt Sefeld, and he is the president and CEO of
med Evolve, a leading provider of revenue cycle technology solutions.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
And we also have Kevin McCarthy, the founder of Blind
Spots Leadership Development. He is an author and certified speaking professional. Hey,
we get a professional on the show, but.

Speaker 5 (01:28):
He's speaking professional, no list.

Speaker 4 (01:30):
So he helps leaders see where their blind spots are,
which is really good because that's why they're blind.

Speaker 6 (01:36):
Spots, don't know where they are.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
But he has still helps them figure out how to
solve those problems.

Speaker 5 (01:41):
Do leaders have more blind spots than followers or fewer?
I guess it depends on your point of view, Right,
we'll find out.

Speaker 6 (01:49):
No, I don't know, so away, I guess anyway.

Speaker 5 (01:53):
Yeah, it's time though, before we get to our distinguished guests,
it's time for your new business journey. Millions of Americans
are dreaming right now about starting their own business. As
a matter of fact, two and five Americans are business
owners or are thinking of starting a new business. And
so we'd like to ask our panel this question. How
did you come up with your business idea? Was it

(02:13):
divine revelation or caffeine overdose. So let's go to our
first contestant, Kevin. Tell us how you got your business idea?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Well, you nailed it for mene lattes a day. It
puts me in to that caffeine over to a situation.

Speaker 5 (02:30):
So what happened when you had your idea for your business?
How did that idea evolve?

Speaker 2 (02:35):
I've been told that I am a serial entrepreneur, and
I've been self employed most of my life. The business
most recent businesses that I'm involved in really were organic.
They came as a result of we'll get more into it,
but came as a result of finding a need, filling
the need, and ideally for myself as a professional speaker,

(02:59):
and then finding out how other people wanted to tap
into that same solution, and so that kind of evolved
into the blind Spot Assessment business that is one of
the businesses I run.

Speaker 5 (03:09):
So were you looking for a business to start or
did it the idea come to you and you said, oh,
this could be a great business.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
Yes and yes, So I guess this is the serial
entrepreneur in me. But my mind always is watching for
the next business opportunity. So it's just part of how
I see the world is I'm always looking for, you know,
where is there need that means filling So that's kind
of always on the radar, and in the same time,
it's very intentionally decided to start this particular venture because

(03:40):
again there was a demand there.

Speaker 5 (03:41):
Great, Matt, can you tell us about your decision to
start a business. Was it based on divine revelation or
caffeine overdose?

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Well, I'm like Kevin, I you know, I'm like a
five shot Americano trying to get things going at the
morning and then something in the afternoon. But look, I
you know, I started my first company, software company, at
twenty nine years old. I was working with big four
consulting firms PwC and Deloitte and Simmary Kevin like, you know,

(04:10):
I'm the type of person when I see something being
done that could be done better, I can't let that go.
And we'll talk more about my experience in the healthcare industry,
which is loaded with things that should be done better,
and technology can fill the gap to a lot of
things that are done poorly. But that's really what it
was was I really believe that my time was valuable,

(04:31):
especially as a consultant that was traveling four days a
week two places all over the US, and I needed
to be able to deliver something better for my clients,
and therefore I did not get the support that I
needed from those firms to go do it. So why
not leave and partner with the technology guy and let's
go see what happens. And that's really it's really how
my life, my professional life, has evolved. The entrepreneur is interesting.

(04:54):
A lot of people think you have to have the
new idea, and you don't have to have the new
I did. Very rarely does somebody come up with the
new idea, right, it's evolution of an idea that's already
out there. In fact, if you are the first to market,
it's risky. People talk about competition. I love competition means
somebody else other than methinks there's value in what we're doing,
and so therefore, you know, we pushed towards that.

Speaker 5 (05:17):
I think it's easier to sell a product if there's
already a market for it, if you do it better
and you have increased features. I remember one point, we
won a lawsuit when I was working in the corporate
world against Bausch and Lom. The argument that the Bausch
and Law people made to us, well, it's a new market.
If you take one of us off the market, then

(05:38):
the market's not as going to have as much credibility.
And we were selling contact lenses to doctors who were
very reluctant to try new products because they wanted to
make sure that their patients' eyes remained healthy. Of course
we ignored that and we took them off the market anyway,
But that was their pitch, and I think that probably
in retrospect, their business approach was probably a little bit wiser.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
And it does really help with the competition because I
run a meetup group for podcasters and YouTubers and we
talked about video editing tools at the last meetup, and
there's two that are kind of similar, once called descript,
the others called cap cut, and they keep adding new
features to compete with each other. So that makes it
better for the consumer, right. But when you look at

(06:20):
those two, I feel like the user interface is so
much better on cap cut. I feel like it's much
more clearly laid out, and I think that that oftentimes
is what helps people rise above, is that if it's
easier to use, then you're going to get to the masses.
Descript may be better in some ways. In fact, I
think some of its audio adjustment is better, but it's

(06:41):
harder to use, so it's not going to get to
the masses the way that cap cut will.

Speaker 5 (06:45):
So Elizabeth, what about for you? Was it divine revelation
or caffeine overdose?

Speaker 6 (06:50):
Well, I mean for the podcast studio. We had been looking.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
At ways to use our building because we bought this
building in twenty ten for the law firm, and during
COVID we recorded upstates here where we are now, the
studio didn't look like this. We've remodeled the whole thing.
So Richard bought all this great equipment and put it
together expensive equipment so that we would sound good for radio.
But we're trying to think of what to do with
the building. We're thinking, should we sell it because it
was kind of emptied out and nobody's coming back after COVID?

(07:16):
Should we rent it for office space? Like really, what
can we do with it? And I kind of wake
up in the middle of the night this is how
it happens for me, and it's like, well, we should
run it to other podcasters. We got all the equipment already,
and then Richard, of course reached Urce to He's like,
can you make any money doing this? And he found
people that were making money doing it, so we took
on the project.

Speaker 6 (07:35):
But yeah, it's always divine.

Speaker 5 (07:37):
Well for me, I don't know. I would say more
caffeine overdose than divine revelation. I was working at a
corporate environment and it just was not a good fit
for me personally. I couldn't understand some of the decision
making that was going on, and I felt more and
more frustrated. So I ended up leaving and Elizabeth suggested

(07:58):
that I start my own law practice, and I thought
she was nuts. I thought that was the craziest thing
in the world.

Speaker 6 (08:05):
He's always thought I was nuts. It wasn't just that.

Speaker 5 (08:07):
But we didn't want to leave beautiful New Jersey. We
didn't want to relocate again because the kids were in school,
and so I thought i'd give it a try, and
it turned out that it worked out pretty well. So
I don't know. I say caffeine because the idea was
really hers, but I drank a lot of caffeine trying
to put it into practice and make it work.

Speaker 6 (08:27):
His name on the door because I'm not a lawyer.
But I also said I'd help you as much as
I could, and you did. Yes.

Speaker 5 (08:33):
I guess entrepreneurship relies both on divine revelation and caffeine overdose.
And so we've learned a lot already on this one.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
I'm certainly overdosing on the caffeine. Now, let's people hope,
and I'll tell you that.

Speaker 5 (08:44):
So I am honored to introduce our guest, Matt Sefeld,
and he is the president now of med Evolve. It's
a very sophisticated software business that does really some kind
of complicated things, but it helps institutions who deal with
insurance companies to be more efficient. If I've got that right,

(09:06):
So Matt tell us all about it.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, it goes back to how I started my first
software company. Right. I'm in an industry of I call
it the North American healthcare system, which has been broken
for decades and is continuously being broken. If you think
about we all consume healthcare. Right.

Speaker 5 (09:24):
We all go to.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Doctors, sometimes we go to urgent cares. Sometimes we need surgeries, right,
sometimes we need telehealth.

Speaker 7 (09:30):
Right.

Speaker 3 (09:30):
Every single one of us on this call has consumed healthcare.
You know, the challenge in healthcare is that the consumer is,
and the provider of services and the payer of services
are all misaligned. It's the only vertical. It's actually the
only industry where you get this. So, yeah, I am
consuming healthcare. I don't really know what the costs of

(09:52):
healthcare are. I don't really know what the insurance company
is going to reimburse me or if they're going to
deny it and play games. And now half the dollar
right that usually comes from insurance is coming from us
because we all have high deductible health plans. So you
have an industry where your cost to deliver the service
and care and collect the money it keeps going up
and reimbursements keep going down. Who's investing in that?

Speaker 5 (10:16):
It's pretty crazy. And what I find about healthcare that's
sort of unnerving is you kind of don't have a
choice because you don't want to take any health risks
if you can avoid it. I guess there are times
when people decline healthcare because they simply can't afford it.
But given the choice of having it or not having it,
it's not like shopping for a new car, where you

(10:36):
have a lot of different options available and you can
be informed about it. Right, You're pretty much beholden to
a system and a doctor and a referral network, and
you have to kind of follow what they say at
least to some extent.

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, and you do, right, And so the pressure is
on margin on the profitability for healthcare providers is so
compressed now that a lot of providers, including how systems,
feel our only option is to stop treating certain types
of patients. And that's happening here down in San Diego.
So if you were to come to my town and
you were a Medicare patient, good luck finding a primary

(11:12):
care doctor, all right. If you were a Medicare managed care, right,
that's your commercial insurance that offers Medicare as a service,
good luck find a provider. So what medical i e. Medicaid, Medicaid,
You're going to emergency rooms for your care. So this
whole world that were yes, I mean, this is what
nobody wants to talk about this, right, Nobody really understands

(11:33):
that there's this whole underpinning of chaos that is occurring
that that is putting pressures on the margins for these
healthcare providers all because there's no alignment between the payer,
the provider and the consumer. And unlike other countries, you know,
like Canada or UK, who have put controls in place
around supplied costs, drug costs and reimbursement standardization. US hasn't

(11:58):
These drug companies make too much much profit. The insurance
companies are struggling, just like the providers. I think United
Healthcare just terminated thirty thousand people. What do you think
is going to be replaced by that. It's going to
be AI bots that are going to deny claims, that
are hoping that the providers can't figure out what to
do about the denied claims, and that that money is

(12:18):
going to be written off and it's going to impact
the margins. So metal vault where we come in is
in I try to break it down simple. When you
go see your doctor and he bills or she bills
an insurance company, and some of that bill will come
to you as a consumer and it gets paid. Did
it take a human to get the payment or not.
It's as simple as that, right. We don't want humans

(12:40):
on the healthcare provider side to have to get involved
in claims adjudication, but the reality is that they do.
There is a lot of phone calls to insurance, there's
a lot of delegation across departments. You know as to
why these claims go unpaid. I'll bet you a lot
of your listeners right now have had to call building
offices and ask for clare vacation on the bill. I

(13:01):
bet they've been transferred to offshore people who don't understand
what they're talking about. I bet they've been frustrated. I
hear more complaints about the billing side of healthcare delivery
than I do about the provider side. They could have
the best outcome of their knee surgery, they could have
the best experience with their er doctor, But when the
billing takes over, no fault of the billers, that's when

(13:25):
the anger and the resentment comes in.

Speaker 5 (13:27):
That's where the sum comes in.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (13:29):
Well, it's interesting because it doesn't seem like it was
always this way, that we had this population of desperate
people who are really unable to get care from their physicians.
What's changed over the years to put us in this spot?

Speaker 3 (13:43):
Yeah? So it's the reimbursement models. Really. So when I
started my career in two thousand, right, a lot of
the contracts with the insurance companies was a percentage of charges.
So what the doctors could do is they just raise
their charges each year and they collect more money. So
I get thirty percent of a dollar now I get
thirty percent of a dollar twenty Right. That was just
quitt fee for service basically, and that's how it was.

(14:05):
And then Medicare and Medicaid obviously get in and they're like, well,
we're not just going to give you raises every year, right,
We're going to standardize fee schedule. So when you do
this procedure, this is all you're going to get. So
that really started to take hold with the commercial managed
care business. Then what happened was you started to see
so much of the reimbursement now shifting to the consumer.

(14:27):
So you know, I personally have a three thousand dollars deductible,
So the first three thousand dollars that I have consume
and health care in any given year comes out of
my pocket. So can I pay that upfront?

Speaker 7 (14:37):
Well?

Speaker 3 (14:37):
I probably could, but why would I, especially if the
markets are doing good and I could invest that money otherwise.
So I'll pay the one hundred dollars a month for
as long as it takes to get that three thousand. So,
by the way, that's also putting pressure on revnue cycles.
So these providers who used to get a lot more
money per visit per se and they were getting had
a lot less labor cost to collect that money or

(14:59):
now it's completely flipped. So in the macro economic conditions, right,
I mean, if you think about where we are as
a society, everybody is feeling the pressure of care quality.
Actually I should care access to care right, Well, you're right,
and that that's the biggest fear I have is communities
are being disruptive because these hospitals are going out of
business because they can't stay afloat, and the States and

(15:23):
the FED can't provide enough to keep them in business
because the cost outweigh of the reimbursement. So I always
tell people like, where are we in five years? I
don't know.

Speaker 6 (15:32):
Where's all the money going? Like who's getting all the money.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
That's the thing is it's being written off as bad debts.
So if you think about I'll break it down this way.
So if I go do an MRI, right, you know,
for I have blue cross, so patient has an MRI
blue cross. First of all, did somebody get the prior authorization? Do?
Sometimes they don't. If they don't boom, it's a right off.
That entire two thousand dollars is now written off. Nobody

(15:55):
gets any money. Pair didn't pay anything, and the provider's
stuck with the ar. If they do get the authorization
and they verify that my benefits include MRIs, then they
have to build insurance. Now you know perfect world insurance
pays they're probably one thousand dollars, and then the consumer
has to pay for the rest right depending on that,
they're deductible. So the providers getting their money. But what

(16:17):
happens is these payers start to deny claims, and some
of it's frivolous denials. It's just I'm denying every claim
and I expect you to catch this denial, and if
you don't catch this noile within a forty five to
sixty day period, then it's called a timely filing right off.
So think about these industry where you have high volumes
of claims that are out there with insurance companies. How

(16:38):
many people do you think you'd have to have to
be able to go through all of those claims to
make sure everything's been done correctly to ensure payment.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
So the insurance companies are getting the money, they're taking
people's monthly premiums and just pocketing it and not paying
the doctors with it like they're supposed to.

Speaker 3 (16:55):
Not consistently. I mean, they're definitely there's too much game
going on. And again they're taking the premiums, but the
consumer who pays those premiums and the employers who paid
those premiums is also now owing a lot of the bill.
So now the doctor's kind of stuck because I if
I lost my job and I just or I can't
pay the three thousand dollars up front, then that doctor
has to wait for months. Whereas you know, again twenty

(17:16):
years ago, high deductile health plans wasn't a thing, so
most of the money came from the insurance company and
we might have had a little copay. So this is
the real problem. And so where technology comes in. So
our technology, what it does is when it's deployed correctly
in these healthcare provider groups, is it measures every human
touch it takes to get a claim paid to zero balance,

(17:37):
and that data starts to tell the healthcare provider where
the problems are occurring within what we call a revenue cycle.
So from the time you're scheduled to the time the
claim is billed to the time that the claim is
in zero balance, meaning everyone's paid what they're supposed to do.
We measure all that and we then run that through
a generator of AI engine that starts to really bring

(17:57):
out the correlations and the patterns to identify as the
people issue. Is it a process issue or is it
maybe a technology issue? Is it a payer issue? I
was on with a group this morning who discovered because
of our tech that their DN, their dermal medical equipment
you know, business line, was being denied by a payer
I shall not name names since January. They went live

(18:19):
with our system literally two weeks ago, and had they
had our system in January, they would have caught that
this payer was denying twenty five codes. Now they've now
had to write off almost a million dollars in codes
because nobody caught it.

Speaker 6 (18:33):
But it's not just a write off. They basically handed
it to the insurance company.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
You could look at it either way, right, Hospitals not
getting paid, provider physicians not getting paid, and the payer
doesn't have to pay so pays piece of money and
their balance sheet.

Speaker 5 (18:46):
Aren't insurance companies though highly regulated institutions. I mean it
seems to me that part of the purpose of the
regulation is to avoid and manage these games that the
insurance companies are playing, as more regulation needed to close
all the loopholes.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
Yeah, so it's not highly regulated. There are standards that
are in place, but the games are being played, sometimes intentionally,
sometimes unintentionally. So what happens is that while you may
have a contract with an insurance company, right, I do
this service, you pay me this, all of the work
around trying to make sure that you get paid which
you're supposed to is where all of the waste comes in.

(19:23):
That's where the providers are having to touch these claims
multiple times and was it denied? Was it not denied?
I have to appeal it if it's denied. So, while
there is regulation, right, there's too much ambiguity with how
providers are being paid for the services that they're providing
to that insurance company's subscribers. And it needs to be

(19:43):
not only does it need to be more regulated with
what the true cost of delivering care and make sure
the reimbursement standard is equal to or greater than the cost. Right,
that has to be looked at, and that involves your payers.
That involves your drug companies, that involves your supply chain companies.
It's not just a provider and a insurance company, it's
everything it takes to run their business.

Speaker 6 (20:05):
So what's the next step?

Speaker 5 (20:06):
Then?

Speaker 4 (20:06):
Can you get everybody together and have them put their
data in one big repository and then see who the
main congress.

Speaker 6 (20:13):
To do something about it? Are? That's that just like
a pie in the sky dream.

Speaker 3 (20:17):
That's fine, this guy, You and I will be drinking
lattes and relaxing on a bee somewhere. But it is
like guys, it's pieing this guy until the pain gets
enough for the government to step in and say I
have to regulate this. This will continue to happen. I mean,
I have an orthopedic surgeon friend of mine. We coach
baseball together, and he's now decided he's going to have
to take a job in Washington State because he just

(20:38):
can't afford to live here in San Diego anymore with
the declining income that he's experienced over five years. Well,
why is that income declining? What's declining because there's just
nothing left over after you deal with the insurance companies
and the consumers and the higher cost to deliver your
care margins are shrinking. The question is what to do
about it? What medicals? And this may not solve actually

(21:00):
it probably won't solve it. In the starry is that
we've identified that for our clients who can start to
reduce the waste right, reduce these administrative touches that it
takes to get claims paid correctly, we can claw back
a lot of margin for those groups. About sixty to
eighty percent of the touches that go into claims management
are wasted touches they never should have occurred.

Speaker 5 (21:21):
Right.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
So if you have an organization that has a million
dollars in in labor costs associated with claims management, I
could reduce eighty percent of that cost. That's another eight
hundred thousand dollars a year back in the pockets of
the providers to then do things with right. And those
those are facts. We have tens of millions of data
points now that substantiate the baseline of this industry and

(21:44):
how bad it is. And we've now established those as
new industry benchmarks for our clients to start to work
to attain because this is an industry that again is
twenty plus years behind I call sophisticated technology, right, I
mean it just is. I mean, look, we've got clients
who still are on paper.

Speaker 5 (22:02):
Oh my gosh, So I.

Speaker 6 (22:03):
Mean seriously, right, yeah, who are you selling this to?

Speaker 5 (22:06):
Then?

Speaker 6 (22:06):
Are you selling it to individual doctors?

Speaker 3 (22:08):
It's medical groups, hospitals, health systems, ambilatory searcher centers. Really,
anybody that has to bill third party to get paid,
to get the majority of payment is in scope for us. Obviously.
Are we can't sell to like just what one doc
at a time. We wed go out of business that way,
you know, so we do have to have some skill there,
but we do target, you know, more of the areas

(22:29):
that are distressed. I really like the critical access hospitals, right,
the smaller tiers in these communities that are really if
they lose that hospital and they go out of business,
that whole community has gone two hours to the next
big health system. Right. I like surgical specialties too, Right,
it's the elective stuff, it's your orthopedic, gurology. You know,
these are folks who are getting crushed the most because

(22:52):
of these reimbursement challenges.

Speaker 5 (22:53):
Let's take a step back a little bit and talk
a little bit about the evolution of metaval how did
the company actually start and how long between the time
you conceived of the company and you've got your first customer.

Speaker 3 (23:09):
So METOFOLV actually was founded by two orthopedic surgeons in
the nineties. They actually saw an opportunity to build a
billing platform because they didn't like the systems at the
time that were used to build insurance companies. Then what
they did was they realized that a lot of providers
don't like to hire people to do their billing, so
they created what's called a revenue cycle company, so then

(23:30):
they would start doing the billing for other provider groups.
That was the company for up until about two thousand
and seventeen, which is when they brought me on board
to take a look at the business because it was
flat and declining. And the reason it was flat declining
was it's a commodity, right. Everyone has a PM, everyone
has a repcycle company, and so there's nothing newer novel there.

(23:52):
So I came in and took a look and said,
you know, I started my own workfla automation company in
two thousand and seven when I left a work and
I built that up over six years. And I'm sure
we'll talk more about that that later on to the
shows and then was able to sell it successfully to
a public company in twenty twelve. So I'd already done
this before, so I basically redid what I did right.

(24:14):
I created this new workflow system that would hold people
accountable for getting claims paid timely. By the way, not new, right,
there's a lot of people that do this. Like we
said at the beginning of the call, you don't have
to come up with the newest idea that nobody's doing.

Speaker 4 (24:28):
Right.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
There's a lot of competition in the space. So from
twenty eighteen, I took the company from this commodity organically
growing business to a high margin SaaS business right where
where we're now putting our software on top of anybody's
billing system, not just our own, and we're now selling
into new markets. The Metaval was selling really only in

(24:49):
too smaller surgical provider groups. Right now we're selling into
health systems and hospitals and large IDNs and global RCM companies.
So part of my goal was to not be dependent
on flatter declining revenue. Right, entrepreneur means I gotta go
create valuations so the value of the business. I'm only
getting a one time best multiple on the revenue on

(25:12):
the legacy business, but I'm getting five to eight times
multiple on the new entity. That's really taken this whole
company to that next level.

Speaker 5 (25:21):
Matt Seafeld, President and CEO of med Evolve, a leading
provider of revenue cycle technology solutions. Stay tuned. We're going
to have intellectual property news and secrets of the entrepreneurial
mind coming up soon. You don't want to miss that,
and don't forget to experience other episodes of Passage to
Profit by subscribing to the iHeart app, Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube.

(25:42):
Just look for the Passage to Profit show on any
of these platforms. We'll be back with more Passage to
Profit right after this.

Speaker 8 (25:49):
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no back to passage to profit, Once again Richard And.

Speaker 4 (27:52):
Elizabeth gearhart we have two, Guests Today matt Sefeld and.
Kevin McCarthy and now we're going to be Speaking. To
kevin kevin is the found Under A Blind Spots. Leadership
development he's an author and certified speaking professional and he
helps businesses and leaders find their. Blind spots, SO really
i imagine people aren't always.

Speaker 5 (28:11):
Too happy is the blind leading?

Speaker 6 (28:13):
The blind tell us all about yourself and what.

Speaker 2 (28:16):
You, too, thanks elizebe thanks for having me on the show.
As well you mentioned blind spots. And leaders let me
start off just to set the. Record straight you don't
want to tell anybody that they have blind spots unless
they ask or give you permission and won't go well.
With you we all, have them that's. The key we all,
have them everybody. Sees them but we need to be
in a place where we're willing to actually own those

(28:37):
blind spots and do something.

Speaker 7 (28:38):
About.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
IT right i was picked up by a host who
is driving me from the airport to a speaking engagement.
Years Ago then i'll share this story because it's relevant
to what we. Just mentioned he couldn't wait to TELL
me i just finished reading your best. Selling book i'm.
So EXCITED and i was chit chatting with him and,
he said you, know what. HE goes i had this
experience with my Wife. Last sunday we we left church

(29:00):
and she started talking about nitpicking the pastor's MESSAGE and, i, said,
well honey you might have some. Blind SPOTS and, i,
said well how'd that go well? For you, he goes
not very well.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
At, all yeah you. Need permission well.

Speaker 5 (29:14):
That's, interesting though because if you have a, blind spot
there may be some, sensitivity there maybe on a subconscious
level or something that promotes you to get upset if
somebody points a finger. At, It, right so if you
believe that you're a smart person and somebody says you're a,
smart person you get a. Positive reaction but if you

(29:36):
at some level believe that you're a little on the,
lazy side and somebody says you have that, blind spot
then you're probably going to react. To, It right, that's right.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
That's, Right yeah and we can certainly get into more
of the psychology of blind spots as the. Show, progresses
now you asked, a question so a little bit about
me And what i've been doing And what i'm. DOING
now i mentioned earlier. SERIAL entrepreneur i ended up the
Thirteenth largest century twenty one real estate franchise back in
the eighties into. The nineties felt blessed to be in.

(30:06):
That position as, A result i was asked by one
of the corporate folks at that TIME owned c, twenty
ONE and i was asked by one Of the century
twenty one corporate people to give a. KEYNOTE presentation i
had never done such, a THING but i had given
a local presentation to a group of co owners of,

(30:27):
other FRANCHISES and i guess it, was impressive and so
that started launching a whole. NEW career i REALIZED that
i loved the STAGE and i did a, good job
and they hired me to do more. And more it
was pretty fun during, that evolution and it's sort of
the history of the, entrepreneurial here serial entrepreneur during. That

(30:48):
Evolution as i'm out speaking Now to century twenty one
offices around the country and bards of realtors and then
eventually other brands and, everything else this is a nineteen
ninety three Ninety four i'm recognizing suddenly that there's a
need in the marketplace for getting homes that are listed
up on this new technology Called The World. Wide web

(31:11):
it was so and so.

Speaker 3 (31:12):
New the real.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
Estate industry they were pretty back behind the times in,
many technologies AND so i got some, programmers together smarter people.
Than me we developed the first of its kind system
that siphened those listings right out OF, the mls put
them onto, the web match the, realtor's profile and so
it's now people could look.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
At homes On. The internet how cool?

Speaker 9 (31:35):
Is?

Speaker 2 (31:35):
THAT well i was first to the market with, our
company but six Months later Realtor dot com came along,
and debuted so obviously we were, parallel paths and they
heard about, my company and then they tried to buy,
my company and they were getting ready.

Speaker 3 (31:49):
To go public they had they'd.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Offered me, stock options, no cash and or give me
a cash for. My company but they offered ME a,
vp ROLE and i thought that's RIDICULOUS that i, should
know and that. WAS stupid i just didn't understand the
stock market of what that really meant. Going public and,
so anyway lick. THE wounds a few months later home
Seekers dot com they were already held publicly. Held company
they were the number two in the market, very quickly

(32:13):
and they heard about, my company ended up buying the
company and they gave.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
Me cash stock and options.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
And then president role in. Their company and it was
quite quite. A RIGHT so i share that little background
to bring us. To current so flash forward a number,
of years still in the, speaking industry now still doing
a lot of, leadership development and in, TWENTY fifteen, i
Recognized as i'm trying to help audiences understand the question

(32:43):
you asked about, blind Spots as i'm helping, audiences understand
how do you mitigate your? Blind spots how do you
know their? Blind spots then what do you do? About
them and how do you build a team around you
that you can be?

Speaker 3 (32:55):
Vulnerable?

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Enough right and the word vulnerability is a scary word in,
the workplace as, we, Know right AND so, I realized
i need, an instrument some sort of a TOOL that
i can use in the middle of. A keynote, is
keynotes you only have sixty to seventy, five minutes and
it had to. Be QUICK so i, THOUGHT immediately i
thought of a disk assessment or some other personality. Temperament

(33:15):
assessment and, you know for, your listeners most people have.
Taken them if, you haven't it's really just a questionnaire
that asks you a lot, of questions, takes ten twelve to,
fifteen minutes and it really because of all the behavior
science that, we have it really nails your, general temperament
how you typically react or behave based on the situation.

(33:37):
At HAND so i needed something, like THAT but i
needed to. Be fast so FROM that i got some
smart people and we developed our Own blind. Spot assessment
it literally takes less than, three minutes and that. WAS
perfect i also didn't want to pay per assessment because
sometimes the audiences are in. A thousands that would just be.
Cost prohibited so.

Speaker 5 (33:54):
Tell us about The blind. Spot assessment is it's a series, of,
questions right and the people answer the questions and. IN
minutes i guess they get a read on their, blind, spots, right.

Speaker 2 (34:03):
Yeah exactly so especially that was the purpose, and Keynote
so i'd have the entire audience pull out. Their smartphones
that's how easy. It is you answer about seventeen, quick
questions takes less than, three minutes and you hit the button,
And whila you've got this report that tells you all.

Speaker 3 (34:17):
About you and you hear the audience, go oh all
these aha moments in.

Speaker 5 (34:23):
Seventeen questions that's. Pretty good just.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Seventeen, questions yeah it's. Pretty amazing and of course that
begs the question is? It valid and to, say yes
it took a number, of iterations but we actually now
HAVE an.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
Asi validation it is a.

Speaker 5 (34:36):
Validated instrument so is there a discrete set of blind
spots that it? Chooses from is that how? It works.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Good question we're basing it on the. Disc, technology SO
and i say. Disc technology what this is is for,
MULTIPLE decades i mean ever since a book was written
in the nineteen twenty eight about the behaviors of normal
people as opposed to the other psychotic people and. Everything
else the book was a catalyst for in the fifties

(35:05):
an assessment to. Be made so how can we measure
and identify your? Unique personality my? Unique personality and we
found out over the last sixty seventy years with enough
data to know that we can break it down very
easily into four primary personality types and four blended, personality

(35:28):
types which is a little bit of each of the.
Two TYPES so i may be like that. Competitor style
sometimes you hear that called THE.

Speaker 3 (35:36):
Type a or.

Speaker 2 (35:37):
The driver others might be the, peacemaker style my. Polar
opposite that'd be the person who's all about the team
and they're all about people and whereas the competitor they're
all about getting results.

Speaker 3 (35:49):
And.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Winning right so you can see how just that short example,
right there you can see how those two personalities can.
Easily Clash like i've got things, to do people, to
see places that be get out of. The way i'm
gonna step on your Toes because i've, got PLACE so
i got. To GO and i don't mean to do,
that Deliberately and i'm certainly not doing it to be mean,
or insensitive but that's just the Temperament that i'm. Wired,

(36:10):
with NOW if i say that or act like that
in front of the peacemaker who.

Speaker 3 (36:13):
Really is they're all, about teamwork they're all.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
About harmony they don't, like conflict they Just want they're even,
steady key, you know steady as. They go they're they're,
very loyal. They're faithful they can tend to see me as, a.
Bully insensitive kevin doesn't care about me as. A person
i'm just a means to his End RIGHT and i
don't mean that to be. The case but that's that's
where the differences of all of us. Come in and

(36:37):
so the blind spot assessment helps identify who you are
and then it shows you those potential.

Speaker 3 (36:42):
Blind spots how do other people? Perceive you and now
what can you do.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
To help mitigate the GAP what i call the.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
Perception, GAP well i remember going through something similar in
corporate point back when out there were people that were,
like that the, drivers, PARTICULARLY well i don't really care if.

Speaker 6 (37:01):
These people want me to be this way. Or not
i'm just going to be. THIS way i don't care.

Speaker 4 (37:07):
About theirs it was kind, of funny but it was
people convince them that maybe they needed to soften. A bit,
BUT yeah, i mean you can alienate a lot of
people if if you rub them the wrong way.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
You can AND what i looked into as that mindset
began to MORPH as i began studying all of this
almost twenty, years ago more than twenty, years NOW what
i began to recognize in the workplace IS what, i
BELIEVE and I believe gallop will dack me up to
be one of the biggest problems in the workforce, in

(37:39):
organizations and that is we hire subject matter experts or.
Independent contributors they do a bang, up job they do a,
great job and so we all of a sudden think
we should promote them to supervisor manager and, senior, manager
right because they do a, great job they're good at.

Speaker 3 (37:56):
Their work but we forget there's.

Speaker 2 (37:57):
One really, critical component and that is the human side,
of leadership not, just, Management right and so that's where
the gaps really start to. Show up like you, just
Said if i'm, a getter a go getter her and
get her, Done.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
Person i'm going to get.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Promoted probably AND when i, get PROMOTED.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Now i have, a team and MY team i may get, things.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Done but my team, is, fragmented. Disillusioned disengaged at the workforce,
is disengaged According, to gallup and it's Not because i'm a,
bad person but It's because i'm a boss who doesn't
understand really how to. LEAD people i can get the job,
done YET but i don't know how to. Lead people

(38:38):
and that's where the blind spot assessment is the foundation
for helping to bridge that gap and open up. Phenomenal,
conversation well that's.

Speaker 5 (38:45):
Really insightful back, With more kevin, McCarthy shortly very interesting
what you said about. Blind spots And now i'm kind
of understanding how the system works a, little BIT and
i could see how it would be. So valuable but
now we have to turn our attention to intellectual, property
news my favorite segment of. The show we've been talking
a lot about. Artificial intelligence we've talked about, it today

(39:08):
we talk about it, pretty frequently often in terms of
copyrights and whether or not creations generated by artificial intelligence
are entitled to. Copyright protection and just as a reminder to,
our audience it seems like if a human being is
involved in the creation of, the work then copyright protection. Is,

(39:29):
possible well we've stumbled across a couple of situations LATELY
where ai is actually acting like.

Speaker 4 (39:38):
A human you've probably all heard ABOUT the ai systems
that refuse to shut themselves down when they've given the
command BY the us they're, Like no and one went
in it actually started rewriting its code.

Speaker 6 (39:50):
So it wouldn't have to shut, itself down and people
are really.

Speaker 4 (39:54):
Freaked out BUT the ai systems really are just operating
based on the code that human programmers put in when they.
Developed them so it really comes down to humans still.
Have control it just seems LIKE the ai is out.
OF control, i, THINK well i.

Speaker 5 (40:10):
DON'T know, i mean because the way that they're positioning,
this stuff it seems more and more like humans are
losing CONTROL. Of ai so just to bring up, Another,
example anthropic which IS an, ai company they set up
a fictional scenario where They Embedded claude, opus four which
IS their. Ai engine they created a pretend company and

(40:35):
let it learned through email access that it was about
to be replaced BY another. Ai system and it also
lets slip that the engineer responsible for this decision is
having an. Extramarital affair so this information got leaked into
the system and guess. What HAPPENED the ai engine started
blackmailing the engineer in order to stop. The upgrade so

(40:59):
if that's not. HUMAN behavior i don't know. What IS
and i guess if machines can behave, this way maybe
they should be getting copyright protection For, their.

Speaker 6 (41:07):
Oh they may get.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Copyright protection so THE whole ai generation of images and
everything else is like a big mess in the copyright office.

Speaker 6 (41:16):
Right, now yeah and who?

Speaker 4 (41:18):
Owns what and so we'll see what comes out, of
it if they can even keep up with everything that's.

Speaker 6 (41:23):
Going on it's happening, so fast.

Speaker 5 (41:25):
It, really is and unfortunately sometimes the legal system can't
keep up with the. Technical developments but we wanted to
ask our panel what you thought about? These, things kevin
why don't you give your opinion ON this ai scenario
that we.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Just discussed sounds LIKE an i robot movie. OR nothing ai,
is fascinating to say. THE least i use it constantly
in my work and just, my day and it's got
a lot. OF limitations i find a lot of them.
Just personally but it has a lot of efficiency and it's.
Really HELPFUL can ai? TAKE over i know enough about programming,

(42:05):
And background I'm not i'm NEW. To ai actually working
with a couple of partners on another project that IS specifically.
Ai driven The where i'm learning as they as they're
instructing and. Informing me but my, personal opinion as you,
SAID earlier ai is the outbirth of what humans put.
Into it so can it just take over and then

(42:26):
eventually save mankind by putting them into a secure.

Speaker 3 (42:29):
Lockdown we were talking. About, EARLIER no i.

Speaker 5 (42:32):
Don't, THINK well, i guess and that's the big question of.
Our time which direction will? It go and can we
maintain alignment between the software and our cultural values so
that it's only a useful tool and not an in and. Of,
itself matt what are your thoughts?

Speaker 3 (42:49):
On, THIS yeah, i mean, YOU know ai obviously is
a big topic and healthcare really from the standpoint, of,
Automation RIGHT so i think there's two. Things there, there's
why and, they say can you use structured data to drive,
more automation removing, you know, human intervention human tasks, from,
processes right, reduce cost reduced. Labor cost but the other

(43:09):
thing is, it's predictability correlations. And patterns and That's where
i'm fascinated by it is is IT an ai engine
can start to pick out the why way faster than
the human. Brain can but ONE thing i will State
and this is something that we really position. Metavolved WITH
is ai is only as good as the data it
can sit. On top so if you THINK of, ai,
today right it's very. Commoditized data we've had to create

(43:34):
our own data asset within our, software platform which is
a new data set that nobody else has access to
but our clients. And ourselves and when you de identify
that data asset and you combine it with what everybody,
else has now you've got a pretty. Powerful engine AND
so i think that we're going to see new data
sets becoming a real thing that's going TO differentiate ai

(43:58):
companies for whatever problem they're trying to Solve for.

Speaker 5 (44:01):
So with these curated, data sets you'll be able to
sort of ensure the integrity of. The data and if
you have smaller, data sets then maybe some of the
risks of losing control over the system are a little. Bit,
Lower right.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
We've already seen it versthand where you have a LOT
of aa companies that are saying that they can automate.
Key processes, you know look at like authorizations or, coding coding. Medical,
coding right you go see, a doctor they have to
build the. Insurance company somebody has to code, all, that
right they got to all. This coding SO these ai, companies,
are oh we can auto code. For you are a engine,
so smart it's going to grab the data needs and

(44:39):
it's going to code. The, client well half of the
denials are more that we see that the humans have
to work in our platform COME from ai systems who
sold the provider. On, automation well their automation is making
mistakes and it's not learning from the mistakes because it's
only able to grab the commodity data that it. Originally,
assessed now what these companies are actually coming to us, now,
saying hey would you give us a deidentified data set

(45:02):
from your system to MAKE my ai coding more sophisticated
and also differentiate myself against the five hundred. Other COMPETITORS
so i think he or she who owns has the
most data will win the game because it's a lot
more FOR an ai engine to assimulate and look. At,
Change right and that's really what we're trying, to do.
Is it whether you're having write me, a paper write

(45:25):
me a, legal contract or automate the prior off process
for a, healthcare system it still has to grab.

Speaker 6 (45:31):
Information, available, well yeah and to that point. Just quickly
we Had a wreckers professor on.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
THE show i guess it was, last month and he
said that when he gives the students, a test he
puts IT through ai and it gets about seventy percent
of the, questions right and then he compares it to
what the students submit.

Speaker 6 (45:47):
And he can tell which ones ARE using ai on.

Speaker 5 (45:50):
THE test i thought that was a pretty. Clever idea
but speaking, of ideas if you have an idea or
an invention that you want, to protect you can contact
us At Your. Heart law we work with entrepreneurs worldwide
to help them through the entire process of, obtaining, patents trademarks.
And copyrights or you can visit learn more about patents
dot com or learn more about trademarks dot com and

(46:12):
sign up for a, free consultation or download your Free
Entrepreneurs quick Guide to Patents Or quick Guide to trademarks
and we'll be back With more Passage to profit right.
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Twenty two Passage to profit Continues with Richard And.

Speaker 5 (48:25):
Elizabeth gearhart Passage to profit is a nationally syndicated radio
show heard in thirty eight markets Across The, united states
and our podcast is ranked in the top three percent of,
podcasts globally and we've also been recently Selected By vaspot
podcasters database as a top ten entrepreneur interview podcast and

(48:46):
that's for the second year in. A row so Subscribe
to Passage to profit Show, On, facebook, instagram YouTube and
On the iHeart app and you can hear all of. Our,
episodes elizabeth it's time for. Your spotlight so what have
you been?

Speaker 6 (49:02):
Up, To, okay well, BEFORE covid i started doing this
website for BUSINESSES where i was going to have thirty
second spiels about their businesses and then longer form videos
and have. A, CONNECT anyways i got buried in the
details of, the WEBSITE so i just kind of got
frustrated and gave up.

Speaker 4 (49:18):
On it now, it's like it would be great if
it was out there now because that's what. Everybody's DOING
but i moved on and we decided to remodel our
podcast studio and rent it out to.

Speaker 6 (49:29):
Other Podcasters so RICHARD and i spent a year remodeling.

Speaker 4 (49:32):
The studio we're in the studio now AND we're i
have people coming in and there's all sorts of different
kind of content. Creation projects so it started as a,
podcast studio a video. Podcast studio we also have an audio,
podcast studio but it's really turned into a content creation
studio because people are, doing classes they're doing social, media

(49:53):
clips they're doing all sorts of different things in the,
studio NOW.

Speaker 6 (49:57):
And i also have.

Speaker 4 (49:59):
TO podcasts i just Spoke To, danielle woolley who is
my co Host On jersey, podcasts podcast and we haven't
done one for a while because she's been.

Speaker 6 (50:09):
Super Busy but RICHARD and i just got two.

Speaker 4 (50:12):
Little KITTENS so i also have my meetup Group that
i'm doing Now With sonya satra called Podcast In YouTube.
Creators community we normally do it hybrid or, completely online
so we're doing it hybrid in the studio and we'll
also have It. On zoom and We're Having rob, greenley
back who is like the grandfather, of podcasting started The

(50:34):
podcast Hall of fame as a member, of that and
talking to him in the pre call for. The meetup
we're going to talk about marketing podcasts in, the meetup
but when he's going to Come on Passage to, profit
too and we're going to dive deeper into what the
four of us have been.

Speaker 6 (50:47):
Talking about he's REALLY studying ai.

Speaker 4 (50:50):
And the effect on human interaction and how HUMANS and
ai are going, To coexist so we're going to take
a pretty deep dive into That. With rob he's a
really smart, Guy too, so.

Speaker 6 (51:02):
Yeah That's what i'm.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Up.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
To now we're just gonna do kind of a roundtable.
DISCUSSION here i do want to say, their WEBSITES because
i don't think we. Mentioned Those So matt sefeld has medavolve,
dot com med evolve dot com and my lifelink app.
Dot Com and kevin McCarthy has blind spots dot Com
and blindspotassessments. Dot com so if you're looking for, those

(51:26):
guys that's where you can go online to see.

Speaker 6 (51:28):
Their websites, but now what's going to? Our?

Speaker 5 (51:32):
FORUM yeah i thought we'd talked a little bit about entrepreneurship,
in General and i'd like to start the ball rolling
by asking each of our guests to tell a story
about their entrepreneurial journey that they think would be of
interest to. Our, audience kevin why don't? You, start well where?

Speaker 2 (51:50):
To start how about the FACT that i spent thirty
three months in a federal prison for A crime i didn't.

Speaker 3 (51:56):
Knowingly, Commit, WOW.

Speaker 5 (51:58):
Wow i had.

Speaker 6 (51:59):
Blind spots that's A story i want to hear all.
ABOUT it i don't want to hear about how you,
got HURT but i wanted.

Speaker 3 (52:04):
To.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Rest, yeah no it's just part of the. Entrepreneurial journey
so after being fortunate enough to own the century twenty
one office that was thirteenth Largest In, north america and
then from that starting a, speaking business then a, technology
business AND then i sold that technology business to home seekers,
dot com if, you REMEMBER and i was at the

(52:26):
top of. MY game i Felt like i've achieved as
an entrepreneur all, my dreams, you, know, paper, millionaire, brief
moment paper and brief were the keywords there by, the
way it was fun because as a president now of
this publicly held company and my stocks, WERE restricted i
couldn't just turn around and.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Liquidate THEM but i learned how to.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Margin those, stocks yikes which basically means you're not familiar
with the. STOCK market I learned i could borrow against
the value of.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
My stocks but the dot com, bubble burst.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
You know back in the early two thousand and then
the stock company wanted their, money BACK so i didn't
have it to, give them so they sold. My, PORTFOLIO
nonetheless i was then offered an opportunity to become a
consultant temporarily for thirty days for a up AND. Coming
ipo AND this ipo was in the healthcare space and
they were franchising out facilities all over, the country is

(53:19):
what the. Plan was but they were raising funds to
go public to, do THAT and i became an investor
in that, company FIRST so i bought, some shares AND
then i became, a consultant and then that thirty days
consulting turned into fifteen months consulting WITH, the ceo thirty,
five employees and never once saw. PRISON coming i had
no IDEA that i, was actually as my attorney, called

(53:43):
me an unwitting accomplice in his.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
Stock fraud for.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
Seven years he took over ninety three million dollars for
more than five, thousand investors purporting to go.

Speaker 6 (53:52):
Public soon so why did they blame you?

Speaker 2 (53:55):
For that they didn't really blame me. Per SE the
ceo was. The ringleader he had thirty. FIVE employees i
was one. OF twelve i was, contract employee if. You
will and.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
It turns out that it was my actions.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
In furthering his crime that caused me to be guilty.
By association and you can't use ignorance as, an excuse,
of course within. The LAW and i should have known in.
Many ways this is the, judge said you should. Have
known you're, Smart guy and, that's what by, the way,
flash forward that statement right there is what caused me
to start studying. COGNITIVE psychology i needed, to, understand WELL

(54:32):
if i should.

Speaker 3 (54:32):
Have done WHY didn't?

Speaker 2 (54:33):
I know we've gotten the way my decision making process at.

Speaker 5 (54:37):
Kind, spot yeah and what conclusion did you come to
when you thought.

Speaker 2 (54:40):
About it that's a, Complicated. Answer richard but, Flash, Forward
dan i'm. In Prison now i'll get back to the
middle of. That Story but i'm. IN prison i had
to ask some really. Hard questions WHO, Am i HOW
did i? Get here HOW could i not have known
my boss was commuting. To crime by, THE way i
want to set the, Record straight i'm NOT saying i.
WAS innocent i was, definitely GUILTY but i just didn't

(55:01):
know in the context of that time PERIOD that i
was helping him with. The crime, IN hindsight, i, recognized
oh there was enough. RED flags i JUSTIFIED and. I
rationalized i was struck by greed because he was generous
in giving all of his employees. Free stock that's like.

Speaker 5 (55:16):
Monopoly money was it a situation where at some level you,
maybe knew but you just didn't want to believe it.

Speaker 3 (55:23):
At a very.

Speaker 5 (55:24):
Deep.

Speaker 2 (55:24):
Level absolutely, in fact myself and several of the colleagues
who ended up with, prison sentences we would talk WHENEVER
the ceo would, say something and, YOU know i was
in the bestor, relations department so part of my job
was to disseminate the information, press releases and every now
and then something would, be weird AND so i would
Chat with steve Or with donnovan or some of the

(55:46):
other guys in. The company and it turns out that
we would, then, Research, like okay, something's offless let's see
what we can. Figure out because we wanted the company to,
be real to go to, go public we wanted all
of our stock to. Be valid and it seemed there
was a lot of. WORKING pieces, i mean there was,
a facility there, WAS employees, i mean it was. Looked
real but yet we went against, Our gut like there's that, visceral.

(56:09):
Reaction right my ex wife called it, woman's intuition whatever
you want to.

Speaker 3 (56:13):
Refer to it is.

Speaker 2 (56:14):
That feeling that, something's amiss. Something's awrong so then what
we did is we just we figured out how to.
Rationalize that we did. The research here's. An example he
asked us to send out a press release that he
bought a technology company in la which was part of the.
Business prospectus but something he was talking about just didn't.
Set well so we did. Some research we found the
technology company we, actually CALLED and i spoke with the

(56:36):
owner of that technology company, and, said hey welcome to.
The family we understand you're going to be folded into.
Our company and he gave us enough information to validate,
the story but he kept closed lips because they were
negotiations and, so forth and, you know it makes sense
they couldn't talk about all.

Speaker 3 (56:53):
The, details well it.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
Turns out LATER the fbi told me that was part
of the boss's. Mo is he would put contracts, in
place even put one hundred thousand dollars deposits down to
purchase the technologies, or whatever to get the business plan to,
sound right and then he. Would disappear the companies would
never hear from. Him again they'd end up with a hundred,

(57:14):
grand maybe but they never got the purchase that they were.
Looking at AND the fbi agent called it kernels, of
truth stuck with. A lie, so again the biggest point
in takeaway here is for all, of us when your
gut is, saying something when you have that what's called,
cognitive dissonance when you have that issue where there's, an
upset something's just. Not right you can't put your finger.

(57:37):
On it you can't you think through it and rationalize and,
understand it but you just. Know something you got to listen,
to that and you've got to dig in and, with
curiosity you got to try to understand what? Is happening
WHAT am i picking up HERE that i just can't put.
Words to that's the beginning of the blind.

Speaker 5 (57:54):
SPOT lesson, i mean as, AN entrepreneur i think you
have to be married to, the, Truth RIGHT and i
mean that's a wonderful example because all of us have
kind of been in that situation at one time or
another over, different things and it just turns out that,
you were unfortunately in a situation that. Implicated LAWS but

(58:15):
i think we've all been in that situation where we've
really kind of wished something that was not true and
we just sort of glossed. Over it and sometimes you
get lucky and you get away. With that, other times,
you know you pay. A price but from this came a, magnificent,
business right and you're teaching other people to identify their,

(58:35):
blind spots and hopefully you're playing it forward by helping
them hopefully reduce the chances that something similar. Will happen.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
There, right absolutely that WAS if i could say there
was a benefit of going. TO prison i was in
a federal, prison camp by, the way which is very much,
community college, you. Know eccentric it felt like you're on.
A campus there was no bars in, the windows no
locks in the or no fence.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
Around three quarters of.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
The property so it's an honor system many in many
ways it's, real prison but it's.

Speaker 3 (59:08):
Pretty light but.

Speaker 2 (59:09):
It gave me an opportunity to really ask a lot,
of questions do a lot, of research to a lot,
of digging and one of the questions sets one of
THE areas i needed, to EVALUATE and i would challenge
every listener to think, about THIS is i needed to
ask myself about my own. Core values is we all
feel like we're good people with. GOOD intentions, i mean
that's just. Human nature but, in reality, IN hindsight i

(59:31):
recognized that money was a really high value.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
For me it was a. Core VALUE like.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
I had been chasing SUCCESS since i, was young as
far BACK as i, can remember and that chasing of
success allowed me to easily succumb to the greed then
of having all this STOCK that i thought was going
to go public and set me back up on. My
feet and SO now, i Recognize and i've done a very,

(59:56):
deliberate STUDY and i actually walked from audiences in, TRAINING
work i walk them through these exercises as part of their.
Leadership development is what are my? Core VALUES so i
have a Program Called. Character counts it's twenty five top
character traits if, you WILL and i.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Have everybody score it one. To ten ten you. Nailed.

Speaker 2 (01:00:15):
IT one a lot of work, to do, like, Compassion,
Right like i'm not a very. Compassionate PERSON so i
give myself a three. Or FOUR so i know that's
AN area i need to. Work on but, BEFORE that
i never even thought. About it, Before PRISON now i, Think,
about okay what are my? Core values so to bring
a capstone, To this i've recognized that really my. Core

(01:00:36):
values to, Your, point richard is money is not even on.
THE list i tell all clients, IT'S like i have my,
SET fees, i SAID but i never let the money
get in the way of helping people make better decisions
and build.

Speaker 3 (01:00:47):
Better relationships so let's just figure.

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
It out let's put our.

Speaker 5 (01:00:49):
Ass together that's a, fascinating story and thank you for
sharing it so openly with us and. OUR audience i
think there's a lot of, learnings THERE and i really
are the way you've moved, things, Forward though thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:01:03):
Very much Passage to Profit with Richard And. Elizabeth, gearhart
matt what about?

Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Your story definitely not quite as, as Dramatic but i've
had my fair share of ups. AND downs i think.
You know, for me it was more about THE company.
I built starting in two thousand, and SEVEN so i
sat in a hotel room in two thousand, AND three
i was Working For price Waterhouse cooper as we're working
with the large. Health system i'm twenty six, years old

(01:01:28):
and BACK then i started to have this inkling of
opportunity within the. HEALTHCARE industry i started, asking questions and
this IS why i would encourage all entrepreneurs who think
they're going to be entrepreneurs that consider is it when
you start to? Question things why is it? This way
why are we limited with? This technology WHY can't i measure?
Every touch WHY can't i actually tell whether a human's

(01:01:48):
effective at The job i'm paying. Money to that just
started to incubate in, my mind and so over that next,
two YEARS as i kind of progressed and matured a
bit in terms of. The business it kept coming back
to me to the point where in two thousand, and
SIX when i was Working, AT deloitte i had actually
pitched this idea. TO them, I said i want to

(01:02:09):
build and the cloud was a big, thing. NOW right
i want to build, a cloud a web based or
flautomation system that we could sell to our clients during our,
consulting engagements and that we could leave it behind so
that we could monitor, their, progress right monitor the performance
of these organizations and re engage with our clients when
the problems, arisd right and they, Liked it they really,

(01:02:31):
liked it but they didn't want to make the investment.
In it so two things could have. HAPPENED there i could, have,
said well, oh WELL or i could Pack My toyter
forerunner at the time And, Leave, atlanta georgia which IS
where i, was living and drive back across the Country
To san diego to sleep on my best friend's couch
from college to start. A company, You KNOW and i

(01:02:51):
think That, IN richard i talked about this yesterday on our.
Pre meeting is it's easy TO say i want to be,
an entrepreneur but the real test of the entrepreneur is
not and things are. Going great it's when things are.
Going TERRIBLE and i saw. THAT firsthand i did not
realize that The great recession of two thousand and eight
and nine and ten was going to. Impact me, YOU

(01:03:11):
know i was sitting here with almost. NO capital i
had left a partner Track with DELOITTE where i could
have just stayed on and been a partner and country
clubs and all. That CRAP and i remember the Day
That american express took my credit limit from twenty five
thousand dollars to one, thousand dollars and that was my life.
Of crap, so again most people, would, say well that's,

(01:03:33):
a sign let's go get our, job BACK but i
didn't because that's just not. My personality. TYPE is i
want to try to solve, the, PROBLEM right i want
to try to figure out how to get out of.
This situation and SO what i DID was i had
to START thinking i was working with, one client building
this software behind the scenes with this, one CLIENT and

(01:03:55):
i started to, think about are there other PROBLEMS that
i could solve for that client through software WHERE that
i could. Quickly build, and luckily, my partner who is the,
software developer was quick, and smart and that's what. We
did we started to look at other areas of need
within a single client that would generate a couple extra
thousand dollars a month. In revenue and that's, really like,

(01:04:17):
YOU know i read this book a long time Ago
called Buil to LAST and i always Use like netflix as.
AN example i know it's, like, overuse Right but netflix
saw an opportunity to get out of the video Store right.
Netflix started AND actually i THINK if, i recall fifty
million dollars Is what blockbuster had the opportunity To, buy

(01:04:37):
netflix and they've. Passed it it's, like, ouch right But?
Has netflix did they stay with sending DVDs? To mailboxes
now they're one of the largest production companies in, the World, now.
AMAZON right, i mean so entrepreneurs have to realize that
you have to continuously reinvent yourself and evolve yourself to
stay relevant in whatever is. You're solving if you want

(01:04:59):
to just stay stale and just this is the ONE thing,
i do then you run a lot of risk, at
tompetition a lot of risk at getting put out. Of
business and so that's really an ATTRIBUTE that i would
encourage any listeners out there look at something that you
feel is being, done inefficiently and, ask yourself do you
have a? Better way and by, the way if you
have a technology play, that, HELPS right i mean services.

(01:05:22):
Or services if you can put Technology like kevin's done
into the equation and you start collecting Data like, kevin's
doing and maybe you START putting ai on top of
that data to start driving more insights. And automation, you see,
it's valuable but do not get stuck in one frame.
Of MIND and i think that's really really what. IT
is i had, To, Write fine i'm actually doing a
presentation to our, company Here and i've noticed that we

(01:05:45):
have these two types of people in. Our company we
have the group that's been here forever and it, was
organic kind of, family style just this is the way.
It is AND then i have this new blood of entrepreneurial.
Minded People so, i'm, writing like what does it take
to thrive in an. ENTREPRENEURIAL company i think the number
one THING that i wrote down. Is transparency if you're
trying to create a company and build trust with the

(01:06:06):
people that are putting in, long hours you got to
be transparent. On EVERYTHING and i think a lot of
leaders forget, that right they get into these kind of
ivory towers where this is just for me on, the
board and those people don't need. To understand and that's
a mistake because the lowest level person organization has to
have context to what you're asking them. To do they
have to be willing to do a, good job and

(01:06:27):
they have to be capable at doing a. GOOD job i.
HAVE found i don't Know what kevin and, you GUYS
but i had a woman two weeks ago give Notice said.
I'm quitting, I'M sorry I just i can't do this.
Job anymore AND so i of course, was, like wow
this is. Pretty devastating you are a very critical part of.
This team BUT before i just, SAID okay, i said
is there another area of the business that? Intrigues you and,
SHE goes i really like. THE analytics, i, said well

(01:06:49):
tell me more about The analyt, SHE goes i like
designing the dashboards and then seeing how clients react to.
THE data, i said, you know that's A position i'm
intending to bring on. This year with that something that
you want. To consider, she's like would you consider me?
For that and then, she says where's the? JOB description,
i said you write it you write the. Job description
so guess what she's. Here now she did. Not quit.
She's THRIVING and i think we as humans. Forget that

(01:07:12):
you got to ask. That QUESTION like i tell THE kids,
i coach it is better to find out what you
don't want, to be so that what's, left behind which by,
the way is a small little percent is what you want,
to be you Know IS and i just asked. The
question but entrepreneurship is it's easy to say you want to.
Be It and I'm sure kevin you've seen. This right
if you are not okay being uncomfortable, and unstructured if

(01:07:34):
you're not one hundred percent focus on your, client success
if you're not completely transparent with each other as, team
members those things don't go. VERY far i always say
it's a garage style startup where we're all in the
same room Trying to It's like Microsoft.

Speaker 5 (01:07:48):
And, apple right go back to. The, seventies yeah that's, Very.
Profound matt and transparency and the work and, the unstructuredness
those are challenges that. Entrepreneurs.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Face kevin there's Some that matt has said it more.
Than once that's really important, for entrepreneurship and it's parallel
as important. For leadership THAT'S why i want to tie.
It together and that's this idea, of curiosity asking a lot.
Of questions don't allow your mind to convince you that
you are the, answer all that you've got. It all

(01:08:20):
you don't know all the people around you at a
depth that. You could you don't know all the ins
and outs of what you need to do to succeed
in the business that. You could there's a lot that
we need to always. Be asking so lean, into everything
whether you're venturing into a new, entrepreneur adventure you're leading
a team leaning.

Speaker 3 (01:08:36):
WITH curiosity i love that you Said at it's one
of my cornerstones is that people are not. Curious anymore
they see something happen and they just assume that's how
it's supposed. To be guys like curiosity work. THE problem
i study a lot at, special, ops, novels, Books everything
and if you think Of, Like Green, Team, Right still,
team six like or any of those for those Operators to,

(01:08:56):
della porce those guys know that the best laid plans
change the moment the first bullet. Goes off they know
that that's why they. Have, contingencies okay but one thing
they always say is work. The problem don't get, stuck like,
oh gosh be victim and there's too. Much victim that's
a whole era of podcast probably retired about their victim
stats in. This world but the guys work the problem

(01:09:17):
and be willing to. Change BEHAVIOR and i think That's
what kevin you said. Multiple times this is that we,
as humans we don't like to feel we don't like
to be told. We're wrong we always want to, look good,
feel good. Be GOOD but i can give you the
best data in, the WORLD and i says to, our
clients but if you're not willing to change the behavior
of yourself and, the organization then nothing's going. To change

(01:09:38):
i've been sober now for almost. Eight years i've been,
in RECOVERY and i could tell you the one thing
that always sticks out in my mind is if you
think just moving locations is. YOUR answer i had. A sponsor,
he goes are you going to? Be there, i'm, like,
well yeah but if we go to the, Beach again
i'll Surf and i'll do all these THINGS that i
used to love. To do, he goes but you're going to, be,
There Right and i'm, Like yeah, he, goes well, nothing
changes then you're still a Strong what, i'd, Like right

(01:09:59):
no man.

Speaker 5 (01:10:00):
Or where you go there you, Are right no atory.

Speaker 3 (01:10:02):
Arts you you've got to. Change inside it's not your
location or your job or. Your family. It's you you've
got to figure out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
For you same thing with somebody who goes from independent
contributor and subject matter expert to suddenly now they have
a team, To, LEAD richard i think you mentioned earlier
and they'll put a word.

Speaker 4 (01:10:20):
To.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
It, Triggers, right so for some reason this employee, said something,
did something didn't do something that you thought needed, to
happen and because of your, own insecurities your unwillingness to
lean in, with curiosity you just take offense, to it
or you just now you just kind of write them
off AS but i don't really like. Them, Much right
you've got to continue to lean in with curiosity and

(01:10:41):
n to, Your, point matt we have to continue to
always want to become a better version.

Speaker 5 (01:10:46):
Of ourselves and that's one of the great things about
entrepreneurship is it provides the opportunity. For THAT because i
think just on a, personal level that's one of the
most meaningful things that can happen throughout a career is
just experiencing the growth that comes through taking that journey
and learning new skills and trying to become better at doing.

(01:11:07):
Different things as, an entrepreneur if you want to grow,
your business you have to, grow, yourself, Right.

Speaker 4 (01:11:12):
Absolutely, elizabeth well my grandparents. WERE entrepreneurs i didn't realize
that's what they were at. The time and my mom
always had nine to. Five jobs but my mother always
had a million ideas and she would try something and
she just didn't have the money or the partnership backing
to really dive in and make. It happen And when
richard started his law firm and we started getting into

(01:11:34):
the entrepreneurial community and learning about how much money, you
need how you need, a team all this other stuff to,
being successful and how much work you had to, put
in it was an. Eye opener But luckily richard did
have me to help him with his, law FIRM and
i have him with the. Studio now but it's so
much easier with. Two people like if you can have

(01:11:54):
a partner or a spouse that is there that wants
to help, you succeed. That's huge not everybody have, that
then so, you know you have to find some sort
of trusted team or partner to. Help you but this whole,
podcast studio in this whole radio show came about because
we took, A leap RICHARD and i took a. Huge
leap he was running his law FIRM and i had

(01:12:15):
encouraged him to start his own firm and TOLD him
i would help him in any WAY that. I could
and somebody came to us that we had met through networking,
and said how would you like to have a radio show.
On entrepreneurs it's an hour long radio show where you.
Have guests she had the, whole format set, and everything
and it. Wasn't free we had to pay, for it
and she presented it, to me AND then i presented
It to richard the. Next morning and, YOU know i

(01:12:37):
ask people when they're, starting, podcasts now why what's your
why for wanting to? Do THIS and i think entrepreneurs
need to ask themselves that a, lot too like what is?
Your WHY and i think, for us it was, just,
like well we want a. New challenge richard had been
doing the law firm for a. Long time we just
wanted a. New challenge so the radio show we started
in twenty eighteen was made into. A podcast we never

(01:12:59):
realized podcasting would blow up the way, it has and
it's led.

Speaker 6 (01:13:02):
To this so we've kind of followed this road, THAT
like i never.

Speaker 4 (01:13:06):
Envisioned myself doing any of this STUFF when i was,
a kid but it didn't, exist, Either RIGHT so i
think my entrepreneurial journey was one of discovery more than.

Speaker 6 (01:13:15):
Anything else and, you know WHAT do i like.

Speaker 4 (01:13:17):
To do what's fun? To do what OPPORTUNITIES can i grab?
Hold of And luckily richard wanted to grab hold of
the SAME ones. I.

Speaker 5 (01:13:23):
Did, yeah well you were VERY convincing i.

Speaker 6 (01:13:26):
Can BE when. I, try yeah what?

Speaker 5 (01:13:27):
About, YOU well, i think, you know there's been so
many different stories in, my career but ONE that i
haven't really talked. About much, one time it was probably
about six or seven years ago at the, law firm
back when we had a total of maybe eight employees
or decided to quit within, one WEEK so i lost

(01:13:47):
two paralegals and two attorneys and it was just kind
of one of those THINGS where i wasn't really managing the,
firm RIGHT and I think i had a lot of
resentment about the behaviors of certain TEAM members i was
FRUSTRATED because i wasn't sure that they were really doing their.
JOBS right i could be a little bit of a

(01:14:08):
perfectionist sometimes AND if i don't see things going quite the,
right WAY then i. Get upset and then that frustration
unintentionally migrates to the, team MEMBERS and i think they
had started getting together and complaining and talking about, being
unhappy and so we just had a big dam burst
and people found new positions and. THEY left, i mean,

(01:14:32):
OF course i was absolutely freaked out because we had
all of this work. TO do i had built the
organization around these. Team MEMBERS but i WILL say i.
WAS fortunate i was able to find an outside para
legal service that was available almost immediately to start taking
over the, paralegal WORK and i found some contractor attorneys

(01:14:55):
who could step in on short notice and keep the legal.
Work going bring this up because, number one it was
a learning. FOR me i really had to check into
my blind spots and learn about my. Management style but
also that sometimes stuff like this happens in the. Entrepreneurial
world things will be going along and the rug gets

(01:15:15):
pulled out from under you and your back is against
the wall and you need to come up with solutions
fast or just let the whole thing crash down. Around
YOU and i leucked out. This time we managed to keep,
it together but it was tough going there for, a
while and it was extremely stressful for ME because i
felt like my business was.

Speaker 4 (01:15:33):
At stake but that probably won't happen AGAIN because i
don't want to say this, too loud but probably a
lot of the tasks that pair of legals do will
be done automatically NOW, with ai you'll maybe need one
pair of legal to.

Speaker 5 (01:15:44):
Oversee, EVERYTHING yeah i think we're still going to have
a pair of legals. Helping OUT the ai that we've
implemented is not perfect and it still needs, human review
but it's just the challenge that we all FACE and
i learned, from IT and I think i became a
better manager at or leader having worked through all the issues.
With that so we have to take a. Commercial break

(01:16:05):
you're Listening to Passage to profit and we'll be back
after this Message with secrets Of The. Entrepreneurial, MIND man.

Speaker 3 (01:16:13):
I had a, rough night.

Speaker 9 (01:16:14):
SLEEP boy i got a letter from the irs YESTERDAY
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Couldn't, Sleep, Man mind i'm.

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Pay less eight hundred two six two nineteen. Twenty six
eight hundred two six two nineteen. Twenty six eight hundred
two six two nineteen. Twenty six that's eight hundred two
six two nineteen. Twenty Six it's Passage.

Speaker 5 (01:17:12):
To profit now it's Time for.

Speaker 4 (01:17:14):
Noah's Retrospective noah fleischmann is our producer Here at Passage,
to profit and he never stops trying to make sense
of the future by looking at.

Speaker 11 (01:17:24):
The past after all, THESE years i still can't understand
legal holidays take the Fourth, of july. For example it's a,
historical commemoration but the establishment of the first secular independent
government of colonies probably wouldn't be classified as a.

Speaker 5 (01:17:37):
Holy, day well that's not.

Speaker 11 (01:17:39):
Really important what's important is being able to find the
time to go to the beach and celebrate with sparklers and,
wine coolers the Way the founding fathers. Once did if
the fourth falls On a wednesday and you're working, that
week you're dealing with all the office deadlines that are
pushed up three, days early or the ones you can't
finish four days later because no one's going to be
in the office to give you the information to complete.
Those deadlines that's because they've taken the latter portion of that, week,

(01:18:01):
off basically for one, legal holiday an entire nation of,
private industry for the, most part is. Shut down those
of us who have a job to do over that
time are simply cornered with the only workable option possible
over this kind. Of holiday that's saying a good.

Speaker 5 (01:18:15):
Long prayer.

Speaker 1 (01:18:16):
Now More with Richard And elizabeth passage, to profit it.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
Is time for secrets of the. Entrepreneurial Mind, matt seefeld.

Speaker 3 (01:18:26):
What is your secret attitude. Is everything we can, be
negative we can, be positive we can. Be neutral the
only person that can make me feel bad. Is me
it takes the pressure off of trying to control outcomes
because we do not control outcomes. In life we.

Speaker 4 (01:18:38):
Control actions that, Was great so, Now okay, kevin McCarthy
you have to follow.

Speaker 12 (01:18:43):
That, Up well bair, oh oh fare follow him, Off
right like, you, SAID guy i went to. Federal prison,
i'm like, OH man i, don't not but have to
start looking for a. BETTER start i, got sober, YOU
know i can tell you stories, Of, That.

Speaker 2 (01:18:57):
Oh matt that's that's the beauty of. The story i'm
willing to tell IS because i realize that it's just,
my story but my story is everybody's story because we
all have our own, unique. Story right so that's what the.
Audience resonated, they're, LIKE oh i didn't go, to prison,
BUT yeah i get. It right and that's the same
thing with the, entrepreneurial journey right is you set out

(01:19:18):
to build a dream which is going to, serve people,
help people solve, a problem whatever. It is and then
also it's okay to admit that we also set out
to build a dream for us and. Our families we
want to be entrepreneurs, for help but we also want
to receive the reward. From that that's okay as part of.
The journey at the, same time to couple with that,

(01:19:40):
curiosity thought you have to get to a, place again
whether it's starting, a business running, a business starting another business,
selling it but whatever, you're doing or whether you're simply
leading a family or leading other people in.

Speaker 3 (01:19:52):
The workplace we have to understand that we have a.

Speaker 2 (01:19:55):
Belief system each of us bring to the table the
way we see, the world and we all see the world,
very differently and we have to filter this curiosity through
the idea that the world should be a. Certain way
my business, should succeed, my business my product should, be
great my service should. Be awesome and if we're not

(01:20:17):
careful about the way we frame, our thinking then we
will create more blind spots when it comes to leaning
into curiosity and understand that there's blind spots that try
to obscure that truth, from you.

Speaker 6 (01:20:28):
Very Profound, richard gearhart.

Speaker 5 (01:20:31):
My secret is going to be that it's possible. To evolve,
you know it's possible. To learn sometimes it's the hardest
lessons that teach us. The most success doesn't necessarily teach
you as much. As failure and SO when i was
talking earlier about my challenges managing the, LAW firm i
had to adapt and evolve so that wouldn't, happen AGAIN

(01:20:53):
and i became a. BETTER manager i became, more patient a,
better listener and probably a little, less judgmental and that
allowed the law firm to find new team members that
helped out and helped. Us grow and so sometimes those
negative situations can be the. Best teachers so it is
possible to grow and to. Get better and if you,

(01:21:13):
feel stagnant maybe the curiosity approach is the, right one and.

Speaker 6 (01:21:17):
Mine will be it's okay to take on a new
venture just because you think it's going to be really exciting.
And fun part of the reason that successful for a
lot of people is nobody is.

Speaker 4 (01:21:29):
Going to do what you do exactly the same way
that you, do it especially for THE podcasters i. Talked
to there may be, other podcasts there's other podcasts. About
Cats danielle WOOLLIER and i are still doing our, cat
podcast but we're doing it differently than. Anybody else, you're
unique and you can do things your, own way and
you can find solutions other people may not think of

(01:21:51):
and really stand out just for.

Speaker 6 (01:21:53):
Being you.

Speaker 5 (01:21:54):
That's great so that's it for us. This week Passage
to profit is a nationally syndicated radio show appearing in
thirty eight markets Across The. United states, In addition Passage
to profit has also been recently selected By Feed spot
podcasters database as a top ten entrepreneur. Interview podcast thank
you TO the P two, p team Our Producer, noah

(01:22:16):
fleischman and our Program Coordinator alisha morrissey and our Studio Assistant.
Brissy cabbasari look for our podcast tomorrow anywhere you get.
Your podcasts our podcast is ranked in the top three.
Percent globally you can also find Us, On, facebook instagram
x and on our. YouTube channel, and remember while the
information on this program is believed to, be correct never

(01:22:38):
take a legal step without checking with your legal. Professional
First gearheart law is here for, your patent trademark and.
Copyright needs you can find us at gearheartlaw dot com
and contact us for. Free consultation take, Care everybody thanks,
for listening and we'll be back. Next week the proceeding
was a.

Speaker 1 (01:22:55):
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