Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Next to Steve Atwater for joining us in the last hour.
If you missed the Hall of Famer or any Broncos
Country Tonight, you go to a Broncos Country Tonight, dot Com,
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where yeah it was me not Grant. You can always
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for Granted podcast as well, whenever you decided to upload
(00:20):
an episode, Nick, you want to talk a little bit
about the the Broncos offense here we've talked about the
lack of playmakers or a lack of a playmaker as
far as that, but what specifically do you want to
drill down on with this Broncos offense.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, we've been talking about the Broncos and looking at
what is it they do?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, what is the culture like?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And for me I can help but think about what's
been one of the main constants for the Broncos offense
and for me, that's been Cortland Sutton. And the reason
I say that is because when you think about what
Courtland was last year, Courtland had ten toestdowns to him
by Russell Wilson. And when you look at who has
(01:03):
emerged as the most reliable weapon for bo Knicks when
used called upon, it's Courtland Sudden. And when you look
at where Courtland is right now in comparison to last year,
So last year we're talking about sixteen games, fifty nine
receptions and ninety targets, seven hundred and seventy two yards,
(01:26):
and like I said, the ten touchdowns. So right now
he is twenty three receptions, two hundred and seventy three
yards and eight touchdowns. Off of that mark, now, just
reading and doing some things on Courtland, there's somewhat of
a projection that states that, well, Courtland's on pace for
sixty eight catches, nine hundred and fifty three yards and
(01:48):
four touchdowns obviously instead of the six touchdowns under them
what he did last season. And the reason I wanted
to bring that up because we've seen two back to
back games where Courtland had over one hundred yards receiving,
and obviously we go back, you know that Thursday night
game against the New Orleans Saints where he had no targets,
(02:12):
no yards. So with that being said, is like, okay,
well we're looking for a constance, something that can get
the offense into someone of a groove. And I'm like, well,
Courtland is that guy. And granted we're not saying that
Courtland has Tyreek Hill or Jalen Waddle type of speed.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
No he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
But we've seen him in certain situations inside the red
zone moving from right to left, left to right that
show of the.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Fate and I'm thinking like, okay, well, why why can't.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That be something that becomes a mainstay Because he is
by far the number one receiver for the Denver Broncos.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So you want to see something dissimilar to the connection
that Drew Brees and Michael Thomas had, Well.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Well, yeah, and that was one of the things that
when Sean Payton came here that I believe Courtland had
come station with Michael Thomas.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
What was it like for you in that offense?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Right, But that connection has not materialized yet, whether whether
that's doing different things or spreading the ball around or whatever.
Conto just showed an ability to flourish in this offense.
It just doesn't feel like they go to the well enough.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Well that's the thing. Why not?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Because the game against Carolina and albeit I get it,
it was against Carolina. We saw a lot of those
dig routes or those cross country routes, and I'm like,
those are the type of routes that it proven effective
with Courtland Sun, So let's see more of them because
this offense needs more production, not less. We saw that
(03:43):
against Baltimore. That's the one thing that stood out. You
need more offensive production. I don't care where you get
it from. Ben Well, we know that with the back
show to fade, that's a guaranteed eight to ten yards
right there. The dig route at the tour to fifteen
that's the first down, So you know you have that guy.
And most teams use their number one player in that way.
(04:07):
It's like you you want that number one running back
of wide receiver to be exhausted after the game. Yeah,
you go and feed them until they make.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You stop, right, But that's not happening.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But I know that it is readily available for the
Broncos if they pick and choose to go to that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, is that a circumstance of play calling? Is it
Bonnicks not seeing it?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Is it Courtland not you know? Is the connection isn't there? What?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
What? What is the.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Route behind not being able to have that connection be
sort of automatic.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
All those things factor A, but I'm always going to
go back to play call it first. That's the first
thing that jumps out, because you can always build a package,
a set package where you could say, well, we want
to feature this particular player and this situation.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
So that's what you desire to do.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
If you want to say, on third downs, we want
this guy to be our go to guy. Fine, and
I go back to this ben. When I was a kid,
I used to watch the Giants all the time, and
Bill Parcells had a guy by the name of Dave Megant.
Dave Megant was the Giants third down specialist. You know,
he was coming in for those particular reasons, but guess what,
(05:22):
you have to stop it and they were gonna find
ways to get the ball in his hands because he
was really crapped in creative in space. Now, am I
saying that calling sudden has those that type.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Of wiggle to him. No, but he is a big
body guy that can go up and get.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You the fifty to fifty ball, So why not utilize
that skill set more and more?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
There were some plays they called last year that I
would like to see a little bit more of and
it was. It'd be Courtland's you know, running up and
then he would turn back towards the sideline and use
his body to box out on the comeback, and then
Russ would just kind of put the ball in there
and let him make a play on it.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
And it play doesn't exist anymore, at least it'll run anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
And it feels like that would be an easy pitch
and catch kind of deal.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
For Bonnett, it is.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And for me, looking at the body size of Courtland,
sudden I think of Roddy White, who played with Atlanta
Falcons with Matt Ryan, and I think about Julio Jones.
These are one of the things that these big body guys,
and this is why teams go on and get big
body guys.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
They may not be.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
As quick and agile as a smaller type guy, but
it's the big body side you're able to.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Box out, box out. Marcus cost a.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Guy who played for Sean Payton with the New Orleans Saints,
wasn't the fastest guy in the world.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
They put him in the slot over a smaller.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
dB and he worked him, just made it work.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yes, you work him inside and out. So Courtland could
be that guy.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and I believe that, and I would love to
see more of that might for me. I guess my
question is who else is stepping up though? Because it's
Cortland and Givant. When they throw the fuck they throw
the ball, it's going to Courtland or Joonte Okay, even.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
If that's the case we saw that last year with
Russ and Courtland, I don't care if they know it's coming.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
If you can make.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yards and you can move the ball, who cares you
think Jalen hurts.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
When he knows the defense thinks that he's going to
go a ball, he's gonna go to a j Brown
that he cares.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
No, he's throwing it to him, Patrick Mahomes. He knows
that people know the ball is going to Travis Kelsey.
You think he gives who Nicholas about it? No, he's
throwing it to him.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Sixty five of bow one hundred and eighty four completions
to one of those two players, So one third of
them are going to those two guys, and it still
could be more.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
I mean, I believe that's what you're saying here, is
that we need to go to the well more. He's
the best player on offense. He's the best thing that
you have. Why are we trying to throw the ball
to Troy Franklin six times a game?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean, I can understand the idea of creating balance
and trying to get other guys in ball.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, here's what we know about certain teams and certain quarterbacks,
and the tight situation is third and fourteen. What do
you think Shadora Sanders going with the ball. What do
you think Sam Donald is going with the ball?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Well, Sam Donald's not going to Travis Hunter, but you's
a effisit going to Travis?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I mean, that's what you do. That's your third down eight.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Pat Mahome's going to Travis Calsey.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
You know what you doing? And who Yeah, well he's
got his choice, but yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
His dealer's choice on that. But yes, bitty Most, you've
got that anchor.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You know, you've got that.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Anchor player that on third down when you need it,
you gotta have it. You gotta go get it. We
need a conversion. We've got to move the chains and
you go to that guy and they get it and
we don't.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
We don't do that is how you set things up right,
because you start to build that because on a scouting report,
all the defenses around the league look at it and say, okay,
whoa on these particular game situations, this is where Bonnick's
going to go with the ball. So you build that
character into your scheme, right, and what you do you
work off of that. They're thinking, okay, whoa, here, here
(08:54):
it comes. They're in the same formation, they're going to Courtland.
But guess what they don't. They're now use Courland as
a You got to set.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Up some of those plays.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And the Broncos this season watching it's been an evolution
and they've tried in a pass success involving the offense.
But for me, it's like it needs to be more robust.
Am I wrong in my process?
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And then I have.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Questions about this.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Why is little Jordan Humphrey the third targeted player on
the team. Why is Troy Franklin the.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Fourth targeted player all the Troy.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Franklin as the fourth most passing targets on the Denver
Broncos twenty seven targets this season. He's only played eight games,
only started four, and only caught fourteen of those balls.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Meanwhile, he got Devon Valley who's had twenty three.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
That's four fewer targets, and as eighteen catches has four
more catches.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
What are we doing throwing Troy the ball that much?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, the reason I feel, Ben, I don't know this,
but this is just my opinion just watching. Ever since
Troy dropped that pass in the Raiders game, it's been
a conservative effort to try to build his confidence and
get him involved with the short passing game, right, get
him a little more comfortable, and then after that just
try to evolved the play calling in the scheme.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
As it goes along. I'm all for that.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I know when we look at the stat sheet, the
final box score for the quarterback, we want to make
sure that he was spreading the ball around to eight
to nine different receivers. But when I look at that
box score, Coland needs to have at least ten to
twelve targets, even if he catches only nine of them.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
He needs his target ball.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
You needs to go up because now he becomes a
part that you can utilize in your offense to create
options and opportunities for other guys.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yoh, and right now he's you know, he's not averaging that.
I mean, he's sixty eight targets through nine games. We're
you know, we're basically talking about six six targets a game.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
He's under Yeah, we need to be and it needs
to be higher. At ten.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Meanwhile, we're looking at you know, at Troy Franklin. Who
I again, I just don't understand while we're throwing them
all five.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Times a game trying to get him involved. I mean,
I think that when it comes to the point where he's.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Got the lowest catch percently, his catch rate is the
lowest on the team.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I get that. And what you could do with Troy
is giving him more.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Of those routes from five to ten yards, just just
to get in your crosser and put it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
In his hands. That's where he killed at Oregon.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Put him on the cross or like the shallow cross
and put in his hands.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yes, like wide receivers should be able to run a
multitude of different routes, and they should be able to
put you on, you know, at the X or disease.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
You should be able to.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But he's at his best when he flashing his numbers
back to the quarterback and catching the ball going.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Left to right.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Then he is trying to go over his shoulder, like
he's always been that guy.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
We'll put him in that position. They don't, don't.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
That's my problem.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
That's why thing.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
It's like we're trying to put square pegs in round hole.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Can't do it, won't do it, can't do it. No,
in the Broncos need more production.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
But we know they've shown as though they have the
propensity to produce at a high volume. But what happens
is almost like they start to produce and then let's
pull back on it.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
This leads me to the question I've been waiting to
ask you for a while. How much does this team
miss Josh Reynolds. I really can't say.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's a load of question because even with Josh Reynolds
was playing for the team, it wasn't like he was
lighting it up.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Now three or four catches a game, I mean, that's
what he was at, right.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
But let's be totally honest.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
But by far their best vertical weapon, right, But Josh
was more of a possession receiver. Even when he was
with Detroit, he was that third possession receiver. It was
maybe that third option that was reliable. You knew where
he's going to be, where he needed to be. Now,
That's what I think the Broncos are missing as far
as Josh Reynolds is concerned, reliability opposite Courtland.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
That's what I'm.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Thinking now as far as having the guy who is
isn't a burner, right, He's like remember Akwa Bolden who
played for San Francisco and the Ravens. Oh yeah, Josh
Reynolds is kind of a smaller, slimmer version of both.
And the reason I say that because put him in
a slot. He's worked the slot and he's reliable.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
It's interesting, though, he has the highest yards per target
of any player on the team at nine point six.
For Cortland, for instance, is seven point three. Most of
the other ones go down from their vala seven points that.
Most of the other ones are well below that in
the six and five range. He is by far the
most vertically targeted wide receiver, So I guess they're pressing
vertical out of the slot. But yeah, it makes me
(13:26):
wonder if we're actually missing him overall, which I you know,
I hadn't considered that as a huge fat because he's
not you know, he's not a guy that's a huge
catch percentage. I mean only catches sixty three percent of
the target stone his way.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But yeah, but the only thing you're missing is the reliability.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
But when he was acquired from the Detroit Lions, that's
how I viewed Josh Reynolds was he was going to
be maybe that second a third receiver who was a
kind of reliable as both Nix is going through the progression,
he finds a way to find that the soft spot
in his own room. You put it on and maybe
give you some yards at catch. But that's another issue
with the Broncos receiving corps. I mean the yards after catch,
(14:05):
because you need guys who can run away from other
receivers like well, the quickly say you wanted about Jerry Judy,
But Jerry Judy had his moments at times with the
run after the catch, like against the Raiders at the
end of last season, and also was a game against
the Chargers at one point.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You know, that's what you need. You need yards after catch.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
That's the thing that scares the Jesus out of the
fenders because they know this guy is a gamer. Where
you put it on him one cut go, he gets vertical.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I mean, that's an explosive and I think that that
element maybe the other part of this is does this
team should they have kept him Patrick?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
See, that's always going to be something that comes.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Up up in Detroit.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Twelve catches one hundred and seventy seven yards, only fifteen targets,
but he catches everything thrown his way.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
But that's Josh Reynolds. And if you want to fast forward,
that's the bond delay.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Twelve of those catches, of those ketches six, I'm gone
for first downs.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
That's the same player. Now. The only difference between Belay and.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Tim Patrick Patrick is a little more aggressive.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, and I think he's a lot more will than
to go dig out of safety than But that's just me, yes,
not just willing, but capable too. We gotta hit a
break here, we come back. Ryan Michael from the Pro
Football Hall of Fame joins us. This is a Broncos
country night. Benjamin Albright, Thick Ferguson here with you, Zack
Seegers as well back there behind the glass as always
(15:35):
doing a great job.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Five six six nine zero is the text line.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Gonna go right out to the knat Wait Commas Spirel
hotline though, and bring on our good buddy, Ryan Michael, Ryan,
how you doing this?
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Evening doing well, then, Nick, how are you guys.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Doing pretty well?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Been a minute since we had a chance to chat,
but looking forward to to being able to catch up.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Here excuse me here tonight. We've heard you share your
thoughts on bow Nicks it this season.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Let's put of it and focus on our opponent this week.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
You've been somewhat critical of.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Pat Mahomes on field play over the last year and
a half.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Is not the lead Sun disput a number one quarterback.
He's not.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
But I think the criticism that I've given we have
to frame it barely. I'm consistent in everything that I've
said over the last two years. Patrick Mahomes is a
future first ballot Hall of Fame quarterback and there is
nothing that he could do that's going to change that status.
So his legacy is locked in forever. In terms of
(16:35):
if that's the floor, it's a very very high floor.
But after his victory in the Super Bowl over the
Philadelphia Eagles, I consistently pounded the desk and said during
the off season, but I predicted that either a the
Chiefs would take a step back, and that certainly has
not been the case whatsoever. Or be Patrick Mahomes statistically
(16:57):
would regress, and there's been significant regrets over the last
one and a half seasons, and relative to the standard
that he set for himself from twenty eighteen to twenty
twenty two, it's a significant drop. So I'm not trying
to sell Patrick Mahomes short. I think Lamar Jackson the
best quarterback in football right now and tell you, but
(17:17):
certainly I wouldn't put Mahomes at number one and right
now in terms of how he's been playing over the
last year and a half, I wouldn't even put him
the cop fire well.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Ryan would that being said, I mean, how much of
this do we look at the injuries and departures at
the wide receiver position to say, well, maybe that's indicative
of why Holmes numbers have gone down over the past
couple of years.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
I think that's perfectly fair, Nick, and I'm in full
agreement with you. The one bit of pushback I would
give is some people did say, I'm not saying that
I was one of these people, that Patrick Mahomes was
somewhat a product of the system and the players around him.
Not that anyone that's calling him a system quarterback, but
he had been surrounded by a wealth of talent, especially
(18:03):
during the first half decade of his career as a starter.
So obviously there have been injuries to the wide receiver position.
Travis Kelcey has been a shell of himself. I mean
to talk about Travis Kelcey, He's another guy who's going
to be a future first ballot wide receiver. So we're nitpicking,
but you're looking at say yards per reception. Twenty twenty,
he averaged thirteen and a half. He went down to
(18:25):
twelve point two from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two.
Last year, dropped all the way to ten point six.
This year he's at eight point four and he's only
produced one touchdown in a game. So I think him
and Pat are going through share in the blame to
an extent. There's no doubt that when you suffer those injuries,
your numbers are going to go down. But when we
get a little bit into the numbers, as I shared
on Twitter earlier today, we're not talking about regression from
(18:48):
being the undisputed number one quarterback in football to being
the fourth or the fifth best quarterback. We're talking about
dropping from being the undisputed best quarterback in football nick
to playing at an average and sometimes below average level.
It's something that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Time with Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter. Well,
let's talk about those numbers themers you shared on Twitter.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
What do they mean?
Speaker 5 (19:10):
So essentially, to paraphrase what they are, I included adjusted
net yards per attempt, adjusted yards for attempt, touchdown percentage,
passer rating, yards for attempt interception percentage.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So if you look at a lot.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Of the advanced metrics like EPA Pro Football focused Grate
success percentage, they rate him a lot more favorably. Some
of those metrics still have him as a top five
quarterback or bottom of the top ten quarterback. But from
twenty seventeen to twenty twenty two, he led the league
in adjust the net yards per attempt, one of my
favorite statistics, and that accounts for yards per dropback, touchdown passes, interceptions,
(19:42):
and sacks take and he was number one in the
league during a five year stretch. In twenty twenty three,
he dropped to fifteenth, and so far through eight games
this year, then he's twenty first in the league at
five point eighty one. His adjusting net yards per attempt
average for that five year window and I'll call the
prime of his his career eight point zero five. So
far this year five point eight one. This is significant regression.
(20:06):
And that's not to say that I think he's the
twenty first best quarterback in football. He's obviously a lot
better than that. I still feel he's a top ten quarterback,
but the regression is significant.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
It's interesting that you talk about the regression of Patrick
Mahomes because over the first couple of years, this production
that they've had have always been centered around what they're going.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
To do offensively, and he's been a huge part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
But over the past couple of years, it's been a
major shift in their philosophy where it seems to be
more focused on the defensive side.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Of the ball.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Do you feel as though this is a long term
outlook that will kind of sue them?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Well, going as we get down the line, as far
as you can't see the Chiefs are concerned, you know.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
Nick, every team can only hope to have what you
had from two thousand and three through two thousand and five,
when you're top ten on both sides of the football.
Difficult to do. So, Kansas City, believe it or not,
from a defensive perspective, has fieled that a top ten
scoring defense in five out of seven years. Right now,
they're fourth in the NFL. It certainly has been trending
(21:12):
to where defense was their strength. And if you look
at points per drive, which might be an even better
stat they were twenty first in the league when they
beat Philadelphia for that Super Bowl. Mahomes carried that team
to a Super Bowl not just by playing good football,
but being the league MVP, setting the all time NFL
record for total yards in a season. I don't think
anybody was prepared to see last year the league's second
(21:35):
ranked scoring defense. I don't have the numbers in front
of me, but the amount of points that Kansas City
scored per game during the postseason was somewhat equivalent to
what the Jets scored in the regular season last year.
So he certainly delivered in moments over time of the
Super Bowl being the most notable right But I think
it's important to note that the hard work those guys
are doing on the defensive side of the ball is
(21:56):
facilitating opportunities for Mahomes to deliver air quotes when it
matters the most. To have those when it matters the
most moments is to be facilitated by defensive excellence, and
that's what we've seen for the last year and a half.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Well, if Mahomes in decline, then what does that mean
for the Broncos going forward.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
There was a little bit of hope, and not necessarily
hope for this weekend, but hope over the long run.
You know, people like to compare then the dynasty the
Kansas City has put together with the dynasty that New
England happened, and the strength of New England did fluctuate
a little bit from being a little bit more defensive
centric during the first half decade of Brady's run as
a starter. Brady's prime, which was really two thousand and
(22:37):
seven to twenty twelve, produced as zero wings. The level
of football complay during that window was better than any
other time in his career. The consistency that New England
had was almost every single year they were top ten
on both sides of the ball, and with as well
as Mahomes performed against Campa Bay. Right now, the Chiefs
are top ten again. They're tenth in the league in scoring,
(22:58):
their fourth in terms of points surrendereds So if there
is going to be division between excellents on both sides
of the football. They were fifteen from scoring last year.
That makes them beatable even with Russell Wilson. Last year,
Russell Wilson outplayed a sick Patrick Mahomes building the best.
We've proven that we can beat them in short windows.
So that's not my prediction for this Sunday. But if
(23:21):
they're not able to consistently field an offense that's anything
close to what they were doing from twenty eighteen to
twenty twenty two, what it shows is that they are
still the class of the NFL. Yes, they're the defending
Super Bowl champions. Where the team be, but they're mortal
and that's something men is that I'm something I'm hopeful for.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Last year with Russell Wilson at the helm in the
sixteen games sample size call, the Sudden finished the season
with seven hundred and.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Seventy two yards and ten touchdowns.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Right now, at the nine week mark, he is sitting
at four hundred and ninety nine yards in two touchdowns.
Do you believe that Lus' season is over and all
is done, that Collon Sudden will be able to eclipse
the numbers with both nicks that he had with Russell Wilson.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
I think it's possible. What I really, you know, in
my opinion, this season is really about the development of
Bonis and the fact that we're sitting with a record
over five hundred isn't something that we should take for
granted in terms of the rapport between Courtly and everything
that Bonis is doing right now. To back to back
one hundred yard games right seven receptions and ten targets
(24:31):
one hundred and twenty two yards, it was one of
the few high points of last week's blowout. What I'm
looking more aar is that he is playing his best
football right now as Bonis is developing, so, you know, injuries, health,
the rest of the season has yet to be determined.
But I am excited Nick that he's playing his best
football over the last two years, arguably over the last
(24:52):
two weeks.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Does the lack of skill position players or the changing
rogue's gallery as it were, has that been part of
this decrease or is this really just all on Mahomes
and the way the offense is structured now.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
It's absolutely not fully on Mahomes, and I think it's
something that in team sports he failed to appreciate just
how important it is to be surrounded by talent. So
when you had Tyreek Hill at the peak of his
power and Travis Kelsey at the peak of his power,
and the many weapons and the continuity that they were
really able to put together for a period of time
when Mahomes is at his best, of course, that had
(25:31):
a lot to do with his success. I do think
Mahomes is regressing. I'm concerned about his health. I'm glad
he was able to finish the game against Tampa Bay.
You mean you see a lot of the plays then
that he makes out of structure, that baseball sand lot style.
He does things with his body that no other quarterback
in football can do. But in my opinion, you can
only contort your body in so many ways seventeen regular
(25:54):
season games a year plus postseason for a certain period
of time before you're bound to miss some games. So
if you look at my gold standard for the quarterback position,
Peyton Manning, outside of the neck injury, he never missed
the game until a final season in twenty fifteen. He
was a pocket pouncer and he didn't bring that added
dimension that Mahomes does, but he tore defenses apart at
(26:14):
a rate even higher than what Mahomes has been able
to do without the advantage of that dual threat. So
I'm not saying Mahomes shouldn't be Mahomes, but I'm seeing
some limitations in his game. I'm seeing some chicks in
the paint. So we'll see what happens moving forward, but
I do think there's a cause for concern in Kansas City,
and so far as to say what people are saying
(26:36):
that what we saw from twenty eighteen through twenty twenty fifty,
he's just going to do that for another thirteen fourteen
years and break Tom Brady's record. That's never been realistic
and we're kind of seeing that now.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
So well, right, you know, with that being said and
known as though Patrick Mahomes is not playing now, as
though he played like four years ago, the Chiefs under
his leadership have proven to be a team that can
definitely finish. And it's interesting that you mentioned Patrick Mahomes
(27:07):
and Tom Brady. Brady became one of those types of
guys like John Elway well when their skills started to diminish,
not saying that patrick skills are completely diminishing, they just became.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
More efficient in the fourth quarter.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Could that be where the evolution of Patrick Mahomes has
now progressed too.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
He's one of the most clutch players. I don't like
using the word clutch. I think he's the best postseason
performing quarterback of our lifetime for sure, probably of all
time as he retired today. So again, he obviously delivers
in those clutch moments. I think is somebody who doesn't
want to just be great in the fourth quarter. He
wants to be great for fourth quarters. The thing about
(27:48):
John Elway that I think we've kind of undersold John
Elway is he had the physical skill set that he
had for the first two thirds of his career in
your right. Towards the end of his career, as his
physical skill set dominic, he was able to find excellence
in a very high powered, talented offense, and Mike Shanahan
is a huge part of it. But he honed and
refined his skills as a pocket pouncer. Mahomes isn't necessarily
(28:12):
doing that right now, and that's one of the things
that a quarterback can do to extend the longevity of
their career. I'm not saying at Mahomes' age seems to
necessarily be transitioning to where Elway was in his late thirties.
But I think the goal for Pat is to play
elite football four quarters every week.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
TYO, Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter, contributor
at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. All right, Ryan
brass tax, Bronco's taken all the chiefs in Arrowhead this week.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
You got me pumped up.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
You told me Pat Mahomes the bum that the devil
Broncos a going to steamroll.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
And what is your final prediction?
Speaker 5 (28:43):
You know, I think they're getting seven and a half
last I checked, and I think that's a favorable that's
a favorable bet. I have the final score at twenty
eight to seventeen, and I think they're going to win
by double digits. I think it's going to be a
competitive game, but I do think that Mahomes is due
for another strong performance. And I don't believe our defense
is what we were last week against Baltimore. I think
(29:04):
we're going to clean it up. I don't think that
Mahomes is going to be dropping a perfect one fifty
eight point three passer rating, but I think a close
game will kind of pull out of reach in the
second half. I hope to be wrong, but we'll talk
next week. We'll see where're at.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
That we will, my friend, and we appreciate you joining
us as always look forward to deep diving on the nums.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Hopefully at never Broncos wit even though you are predicting
them to lose.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter, we always
enjoy having him on the show. Nick, what did you
think of him saying that Pat Mahomes is washed?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I don't think he actually put it in those terms.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Now we sound like Ryan Edwards, but I can understand
when you look at the statistical data, it doesn't look
great for Patrick Mahomes in comparison to any of the
other quarterbacks, but more importantly.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
To year's pass Andy Reid's offense.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
But this is where you progress to as a player,
where things start to change and evolve with you, like
you start learning different ways to win games. Think about
Michael Jordan. When he first came into the.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
League to the NBA. He was flying high. That was
dunks and all these types of things.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
As he starts to get wiser as a player, he
started to develop more of a jump shot and more
of a three point shooting stature, but that wasn't who
he was.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
But it's an evolution.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
This is not to take away from Patrick Mahomes and
saying that he's not one of the top players in
the league right now. Sometimes you have to learn different
ways to win ball games. And to me, that's the
thing that makes you dangerous because the one thing that
everyone knew you to be, you're not doing that same thing.
You just it's an evolution, almost like a caterpillar become
(30:55):
in a bubbleply right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But it's it's like magic. Well it's kind of like magic,
but it's not.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
It's the magic that you don't want to see if
you're a Broncos fan.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Well, right, And you know, to me, part of it is,
you know, whatever gripes I have with Eric the enemy,
and I had plenty, there was something to what he
brought to the table because the offense when he was
there versus the offense with Matt now he has not
been the same. So whether that's him on the side
being afraid of him barking at you on the sideline,
(31:27):
or something he actually brought to the table in terms
of actually whatever the case may be. And we've seen
that his offense is by himself, if not exactly lit
the world on fire, might have got his quarterback lit
on fire in Washington last year when Sam Howe got
sacked something like seventy times. But it I mean, we've
seen enough to know that there's a difference with him
not being there, you know, and maybe maybe it's like
a cake, you know, you skip one ingreeted and it
tastes nasty, you know.
Speaker 6 (31:49):
Yeah, you can't put to can't put salt instead of
show now, Oh you can No, I know, I know
they looked the same, looks takes it entirely different.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
So I think that there's something to that.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I think there's something to some of the skill position
players that they've sort of been missing, and I think
that's part of the reason they went got new you know,
and did that kind of so I think that they
were relying on mahomes to do everything, and it was
a lot easier when you had Tyreek Hill there and
a healthy Isaiah p at Checko and Travis Kelcey and
his prime and you know, in.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think that there's a combination of things that have
led to what it is that is Kansas City. I
don't want to call it, decline offensively, but to the
place where they're at offensively.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Now, which is not the heights they used to sar
at Brocos country night. We got hit a break. We'll
be back up this
Next to Steve Atwater for joining us in the last hour.
If you missed the Hall of Famer or any Broncos
Country Tonight, you go to a Broncos Country Tonight, dot Com,
slash podcast wherever you get your podcast, Apple, iTunes, Spotify, Total,
the Free and Awesome, I Hurt Radio app nailed it
where yeah it was me not Grant. You can always
tell the difference where you can get to take it
for Granted podcast as well, whenever you decided to upload
(00:20):
an episode, Nick, you want to talk a little bit
about the the Broncos offense here we've talked about the
lack of playmakers or a lack of a playmaker as
far as that, but what specifically do you want to
drill down on with this Broncos offense.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Well, we've been talking about the Broncos and looking at
what is it they do?
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, what is the culture like?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
And for me I can help but think about what's
been one of the main constants for the Broncos offense
and for me, that's been Cortland Sutton. And the reason
I say that is because when you think about what
Courtland was last year, Courtland had ten toestdowns to him
by Russell Wilson. And when you look at who has
(01:03):
emerged as the most reliable weapon for bo Knicks when
used called upon, it's Courtland Sudden. And when you look
at where Courtland is right now in comparison to last year,
So last year we're talking about sixteen games, fifty nine
receptions and ninety targets, seven hundred and seventy two yards,
(01:26):
and like I said, the ten touchdowns. So right now
he is twenty three receptions, two hundred and seventy three
yards and eight touchdowns. Off of that mark, now, just
reading and doing some things on Courtland, there's somewhat of
a projection that states that, well, Courtland's on pace for
sixty eight catches, nine hundred and fifty three yards and
(01:48):
four touchdowns obviously instead of the six touchdowns under them
what he did last season. And the reason I wanted
to bring that up because we've seen two back to
back games where Courtland had over one hundred yards receiving,
and obviously we go back, you know that Thursday night
game against the New Orleans Saints where he had no targets,
(02:12):
no yards. So with that being said, is like, okay,
well we're looking for a constance, something that can get
the offense into someone of a groove. And I'm like, well,
Courtland is that guy. And granted we're not saying that
Courtland has Tyreek Hill or Jalen Waddle type of speed.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
No he doesn't.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
But we've seen him in certain situations inside the red
zone moving from right to left, left to right that
show of the.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Fate and I'm thinking like, okay, well, why why can't.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
That be something that becomes a mainstay Because he is
by far the number one receiver for the Denver Broncos.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
So you want to see something dissimilar to the connection
that Drew Brees and Michael Thomas had, Well.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Well, yeah, and that was one of the things that
when Sean Payton came here that I believe Courtland had
come station with Michael Thomas.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
What was it like for you in that offense?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Right, But that connection has not materialized yet, whether whether
that's doing different things or spreading the ball around or whatever.
Conto just showed an ability to flourish in this offense.
It just doesn't feel like they go to the well enough.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
Well that's the thing. Why not?
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Because the game against Carolina and albeit I get it,
it was against Carolina. We saw a lot of those
dig routes or those cross country routes, and I'm like,
those are the type of routes that it proven effective
with Courtland Sun, So let's see more of them because
this offense needs more production, not less. We saw that
(03:43):
against Baltimore. That's the one thing that stood out. You
need more offensive production. I don't care where you get
it from. Ben Well, we know that with the back
show to fade, that's a guaranteed eight to ten yards
right there. The dig route at the tour to fifteen
that's the first down, So you know you have that guy.
And most teams use their number one player in that way.
(04:07):
It's like you you want that number one running back
of wide receiver to be exhausted after the game. Yeah,
you go and feed them until they make.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
You stop, right, But that's not happening.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
But I know that it is readily available for the
Broncos if they pick and choose to go to that.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Well, is that a circumstance of play calling? Is it
Bonnicks not seeing it?
Speaker 4 (04:31):
Is it Courtland not you know? Is the connection isn't there? What?
Speaker 3 (04:35):
What? What is the.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Route behind not being able to have that connection be
sort of automatic.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
All those things factor A, but I'm always going to
go back to play call it first. That's the first
thing that jumps out, because you can always build a package,
a set package where you could say, well, we want
to feature this particular player and this situation.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
So that's what you desire to do.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
If you want to say, on third downs, we want
this guy to be our go to guy. Fine, and
I go back to this ben. When I was a kid,
I used to watch the Giants all the time, and
Bill Parcells had a guy by the name of Dave Megant.
Dave Megant was the Giants third down specialist. You know,
he was coming in for those particular reasons, but guess what,
(05:22):
you have to stop it and they were gonna find
ways to get the ball in his hands because he
was really crapped in creative in space. Now, am I
saying that calling sudden has those that type.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
Of wiggle to him. No, but he is a big
body guy that can go up and get.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
You the fifty to fifty ball, So why not utilize
that skill set more and more?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
There were some plays they called last year that I
would like to see a little bit more of and
it was. It'd be Courtland's you know, running up and
then he would turn back towards the sideline and use
his body to box out on the comeback, and then
Russ would just kind of put the ball in there
and let him make a play on it.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
And it play doesn't exist anymore, at least it'll run anymore.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
And it feels like that would be an easy pitch
and catch kind of deal.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
For Bonnett, it is.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And for me, looking at the body size of Courtland,
sudden I think of Roddy White, who played with Atlanta
Falcons with Matt Ryan, and I think about Julio Jones.
These are one of the things that these big body guys,
and this is why teams go on and get big
body guys.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
They may not be.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
As quick and agile as a smaller type guy, but
it's the big body side you're able to.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Box out, box out. Marcus cost a.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Guy who played for Sean Payton with the New Orleans Saints,
wasn't the fastest guy in the world.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
They put him in the slot over a smaller.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
dB and he worked him, just made it work.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yes, you work him inside and out. So Courtland could
be that guy.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, and I believe that, and I would love to
see more of that might for me. I guess my
question is who else is stepping up though? Because it's
Cortland and Givant. When they throw the fuck they throw
the ball, it's going to Courtland or Joonte Okay, even.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
If that's the case we saw that last year with
Russ and Courtland, I don't care if they know it's coming.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
If you can make.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yards and you can move the ball, who cares you
think Jalen hurts.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
When he knows the defense thinks that he's going to
go a ball, he's gonna go to a j Brown
that he cares.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
No, he's throwing it to him, Patrick Mahomes. He knows
that people know the ball is going to Travis Kelsey.
You think he gives who Nicholas about it? No, he's
throwing it to him.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
Sixty five of bow one hundred and eighty four completions
to one of those two players, So one third of
them are going to those two guys, and it still
could be more.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Right.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
I mean, I believe that's what you're saying here, is
that we need to go to the well more. He's
the best player on offense. He's the best thing that
you have. Why are we trying to throw the ball
to Troy Franklin six times a game?
Speaker 2 (07:43):
I mean, I can understand the idea of creating balance
and trying to get other guys in ball.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well, here's what we know about certain teams and certain quarterbacks,
and the tight situation is third and fourteen. What do
you think Shadora Sanders going with the ball. What do
you think Sam Donald is going with the ball?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Well, Sam Donald's not going to Travis Hunter, but you's
a effisit going to Travis?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I mean, that's what you do. That's your third down eight.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Pat Mahome's going to Travis Calsey.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
You know what you doing? And who Yeah, well he's
got his choice, but yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
His dealer's choice on that. But yes, bitty Most, you've
got that anchor.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
You know, you've got that.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Anchor player that on third down when you need it,
you gotta have it. You gotta go get it. We
need a conversion. We've got to move the chains and
you go to that guy and they get it and
we don't.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
We don't do that is how you set things up right,
because you start to build that because on a scouting report,
all the defenses around the league look at it and say, okay,
whoa on these particular game situations, this is where Bonnick's
going to go with the ball. So you build that
character into your scheme, right, and what you do you
work off of that. They're thinking, okay, whoa, here, here
(08:54):
it comes. They're in the same formation, they're going to Courtland.
But guess what they don't. They're now use Courland as
a You got to set.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Up some of those plays.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
And the Broncos this season watching it's been an evolution
and they've tried in a pass success involving the offense.
But for me, it's like it needs to be more robust.
Am I wrong in my process?
Speaker 4 (09:16):
And then I have.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
Questions about this.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Why is little Jordan Humphrey the third targeted player on
the team. Why is Troy Franklin the.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Fourth targeted player all the Troy.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Franklin as the fourth most passing targets on the Denver
Broncos twenty seven targets this season. He's only played eight games,
only started four, and only caught fourteen of those balls.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Meanwhile, he got Devon Valley who's had twenty three.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
That's four fewer targets, and as eighteen catches has four
more catches.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
What are we doing throwing Troy the ball that much?
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Well, the reason I feel, Ben, I don't know this,
but this is just my opinion just watching. Ever since
Troy dropped that pass in the Raiders game, it's been
a conservative effort to try to build his confidence and
get him involved with the short passing game, right, get
him a little more comfortable, and then after that just
try to evolved the play calling in the scheme.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
As it goes along. I'm all for that.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I know when we look at the stat sheet, the
final box score for the quarterback, we want to make
sure that he was spreading the ball around to eight
to nine different receivers. But when I look at that
box score, Coland needs to have at least ten to
twelve targets, even if he catches only nine of them.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
He needs his target ball.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
You needs to go up because now he becomes a
part that you can utilize in your offense to create
options and opportunities for other guys.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yoh, and right now he's you know, he's not averaging that.
I mean, he's sixty eight targets through nine games. We're
you know, we're basically talking about six six targets a game.
Speaker 4 (10:44):
He's under Yeah, we need to be and it needs
to be higher. At ten.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Meanwhile, we're looking at you know, at Troy Franklin. Who
I again, I just don't understand while we're throwing them
all five.
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Times a game trying to get him involved. I mean,
I think that when it comes to the point where he's.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Got the lowest catch percently, his catch rate is the
lowest on the team.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
I get that. And what you could do with Troy
is giving him more.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Of those routes from five to ten yards, just just
to get in your crosser and put it.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
In his hands. That's where he killed at Oregon.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
Put him on the cross or like the shallow cross
and put in his hands.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yes, like wide receivers should be able to run a
multitude of different routes, and they should be able to
put you on, you know, at the X or disease.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
You should be able to.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But he's at his best when he flashing his numbers
back to the quarterback and catching the ball going.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Left to right.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
Then he is trying to go over his shoulder, like
he's always been that guy.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
We'll put him in that position. They don't, don't.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
That's my problem.
Speaker 3 (11:41):
That's why thing.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
It's like we're trying to put square pegs in round hole.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Can't do it, won't do it, can't do it. No,
in the Broncos need more production.
Speaker 2 (11:49):
But we know they've shown as though they have the
propensity to produce at a high volume. But what happens
is almost like they start to produce and then let's
pull back on it.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
This leads me to the question I've been waiting to
ask you for a while. How much does this team
miss Josh Reynolds. I really can't say.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
That's a load of question because even with Josh Reynolds
was playing for the team, it wasn't like he was
lighting it up.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Now three or four catches a game, I mean, that's
what he was at, right.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
But let's be totally honest.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
But by far their best vertical weapon, right, But Josh
was more of a possession receiver. Even when he was
with Detroit, he was that third possession receiver. It was
maybe that third option that was reliable. You knew where
he's going to be, where he needed to be. Now,
That's what I think the Broncos are missing as far
as Josh Reynolds is concerned, reliability opposite Courtland.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
That's what I'm.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Thinking now as far as having the guy who is
isn't a burner, right, He's like remember Akwa Bolden who
played for San Francisco and the Ravens. Oh yeah, Josh
Reynolds is kind of a smaller, slimmer version of both.
And the reason I say that because put him in
a slot. He's worked the slot and he's reliable.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
It's interesting, though, he has the highest yards per target
of any player on the team at nine point six.
For Cortland, for instance, is seven point three. Most of
the other ones go down from their vala seven points that.
Most of the other ones are well below that in
the six and five range. He is by far the
most vertically targeted wide receiver, So I guess they're pressing
vertical out of the slot. But yeah, it makes me
(13:26):
wonder if we're actually missing him overall, which I you know,
I hadn't considered that as a huge fat because he's
not you know, he's not a guy that's a huge
catch percentage. I mean only catches sixty three percent of
the target stone his way.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But yeah, but the only thing you're missing is the reliability.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
But when he was acquired from the Detroit Lions, that's
how I viewed Josh Reynolds was he was going to
be maybe that second a third receiver who was a
kind of reliable as both Nix is going through the progression,
he finds a way to find that the soft spot
in his own room. You put it on and maybe
give you some yards at catch. But that's another issue
with the Broncos receiving corps. I mean the yards after catch,
(14:05):
because you need guys who can run away from other
receivers like well, the quickly say you wanted about Jerry Judy,
But Jerry Judy had his moments at times with the
run after the catch, like against the Raiders at the
end of last season, and also was a game against
the Chargers at one point.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You know, that's what you need. You need yards after catch.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
That's the thing that scares the Jesus out of the
fenders because they know this guy is a gamer. Where
you put it on him one cut go, he gets vertical.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
I mean, that's an explosive and I think that that
element maybe the other part of this is does this
team should they have kept him Patrick?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
See, that's always going to be something that comes.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
Up up in Detroit.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Twelve catches one hundred and seventy seven yards, only fifteen targets,
but he catches everything thrown his way.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
But that's Josh Reynolds. And if you want to fast forward,
that's the bond delay.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Twelve of those catches, of those ketches six, I'm gone
for first downs.
Speaker 3 (15:05):
That's the same player. Now. The only difference between Belay and.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Tim Patrick Patrick is a little more aggressive.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Yeah, and I think he's a lot more will than
to go dig out of safety than But that's just me, yes,
not just willing, but capable too. We gotta hit a
break here, we come back. Ryan Michael from the Pro
Football Hall of Fame joins us. This is a Broncos
country night. Benjamin Albright, Thick Ferguson here with you, Zack
Seegers as well back there behind the glass as always
(15:35):
doing a great job.
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Five six six nine zero is the text line.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Gonna go right out to the knat Wait Commas Spirel
hotline though, and bring on our good buddy, Ryan Michael, Ryan,
how you doing this?
Speaker 5 (15:45):
Evening doing well, then, Nick, how are you guys.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
Doing pretty well?
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Been a minute since we had a chance to chat,
but looking forward to to being able to catch up.
Speaker 4 (15:54):
Here excuse me here tonight. We've heard you share your
thoughts on bow Nicks it this season.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Let's put of it and focus on our opponent this week.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
You've been somewhat critical of.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Pat Mahomes on field play over the last year and
a half.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Is not the lead Sun disput a number one quarterback.
He's not.
Speaker 5 (16:15):
But I think the criticism that I've given we have
to frame it barely. I'm consistent in everything that I've
said over the last two years. Patrick Mahomes is a
future first ballot Hall of Fame quarterback and there is
nothing that he could do that's going to change that status.
So his legacy is locked in forever. In terms of
(16:35):
if that's the floor, it's a very very high floor.
But after his victory in the Super Bowl over the
Philadelphia Eagles, I consistently pounded the desk and said during
the off season, but I predicted that either a the
Chiefs would take a step back, and that certainly has
not been the case whatsoever. Or be Patrick Mahomes statistically
(16:57):
would regress, and there's been significant regrets over the last
one and a half seasons, and relative to the standard
that he set for himself from twenty eighteen to twenty
twenty two, it's a significant drop. So I'm not trying
to sell Patrick Mahomes short. I think Lamar Jackson the
best quarterback in football right now and tell you, but
(17:17):
certainly I wouldn't put Mahomes at number one and right
now in terms of how he's been playing over the
last year and a half, I wouldn't even put him
the cop fire well.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Ryan would that being said, I mean, how much of
this do we look at the injuries and departures at
the wide receiver position to say, well, maybe that's indicative
of why Holmes numbers have gone down over the past
couple of years.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
I think that's perfectly fair, Nick, and I'm in full
agreement with you. The one bit of pushback I would
give is some people did say, I'm not saying that
I was one of these people, that Patrick Mahomes was
somewhat a product of the system and the players around him.
Not that anyone that's calling him a system quarterback, but
he had been surrounded by a wealth of talent, especially
(18:03):
during the first half decade of his career as a starter.
So obviously there have been injuries to the wide receiver position.
Travis Kelcey has been a shell of himself. I mean
to talk about Travis Kelcey, He's another guy who's going
to be a future first ballot wide receiver. So we're nitpicking,
but you're looking at say yards per reception. Twenty twenty,
he averaged thirteen and a half. He went down to
(18:25):
twelve point two from twenty twenty one to twenty twenty two.
Last year, dropped all the way to ten point six.
This year he's at eight point four and he's only
produced one touchdown in a game. So I think him
and Pat are going through share in the blame to
an extent. There's no doubt that when you suffer those injuries,
your numbers are going to go down. But when we
get a little bit into the numbers, as I shared
on Twitter earlier today, we're not talking about regression from
(18:48):
being the undisputed number one quarterback in football to being
the fourth or the fifth best quarterback. We're talking about
dropping from being the undisputed best quarterback in football nick
to playing at an average and sometimes below average level.
It's something that needs to be addressed.
Speaker 4 (19:03):
Time with Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter. Well,
let's talk about those numbers themers you shared on Twitter.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
What do they mean?
Speaker 5 (19:10):
So essentially, to paraphrase what they are, I included adjusted
net yards per attempt, adjusted yards for attempt, touchdown percentage,
passer rating, yards for attempt interception percentage.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So if you look at a lot.
Speaker 5 (19:20):
Of the advanced metrics like EPA Pro Football focused Grate
success percentage, they rate him a lot more favorably. Some
of those metrics still have him as a top five
quarterback or bottom of the top ten quarterback. But from
twenty seventeen to twenty twenty two, he led the league
in adjust the net yards per attempt, one of my
favorite statistics, and that accounts for yards per dropback, touchdown passes, interceptions,
(19:42):
and sacks take and he was number one in the
league during a five year stretch. In twenty twenty three,
he dropped to fifteenth, and so far through eight games
this year, then he's twenty first in the league at
five point eighty one. His adjusting net yards per attempt
average for that five year window and I'll call the
prime of his his career eight point zero five. So
far this year five point eight one. This is significant regression.
(20:06):
And that's not to say that I think he's the
twenty first best quarterback in football. He's obviously a lot
better than that. I still feel he's a top ten quarterback,
but the regression is significant.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
It's interesting that you talk about the regression of Patrick
Mahomes because over the first couple of years, this production
that they've had have always been centered around what they're going.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
To do offensively, and he's been a huge part of it.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
But over the past couple of years, it's been a
major shift in their philosophy where it seems to be
more focused on the defensive side.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Of the ball.
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Do you feel as though this is a long term
outlook that will kind of sue them?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Well, going as we get down the line, as far
as you can't see the Chiefs are concerned, you know.
Speaker 5 (20:52):
Nick, every team can only hope to have what you
had from two thousand and three through two thousand and five,
when you're top ten on both sides of the football.
Difficult to do. So, Kansas City, believe it or not,
from a defensive perspective, has fieled that a top ten
scoring defense in five out of seven years. Right now,
they're fourth in the NFL. It certainly has been trending
(21:12):
to where defense was their strength. And if you look
at points per drive, which might be an even better
stat they were twenty first in the league when they
beat Philadelphia for that Super Bowl. Mahomes carried that team
to a Super Bowl not just by playing good football,
but being the league MVP, setting the all time NFL
record for total yards in a season. I don't think
anybody was prepared to see last year the league's second
(21:35):
ranked scoring defense. I don't have the numbers in front
of me, but the amount of points that Kansas City
scored per game during the postseason was somewhat equivalent to
what the Jets scored in the regular season last year.
So he certainly delivered in moments over time of the
Super Bowl being the most notable right But I think
it's important to note that the hard work those guys
are doing on the defensive side of the ball is
(21:56):
facilitating opportunities for Mahomes to deliver air quotes when it
matters the most. To have those when it matters the
most moments is to be facilitated by defensive excellence, and
that's what we've seen for the last year and a half.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Well, if Mahomes in decline, then what does that mean
for the Broncos going forward.
Speaker 5 (22:15):
There was a little bit of hope, and not necessarily
hope for this weekend, but hope over the long run.
You know, people like to compare then the dynasty the
Kansas City has put together with the dynasty that New
England happened, and the strength of New England did fluctuate
a little bit from being a little bit more defensive
centric during the first half decade of Brady's run as
a starter. Brady's prime, which was really two thousand and
(22:37):
seven to twenty twelve, produced as zero wings. The level
of football complay during that window was better than any
other time in his career. The consistency that New England
had was almost every single year they were top ten
on both sides of the ball, and with as well
as Mahomes performed against Campa Bay. Right now, the Chiefs
are top ten again. They're tenth in the league in scoring,
(22:58):
their fourth in terms of points surrendereds So if there
is going to be division between excellents on both sides
of the football. They were fifteen from scoring last year.
That makes them beatable even with Russell Wilson. Last year,
Russell Wilson outplayed a sick Patrick Mahomes building the best.
We've proven that we can beat them in short windows.
So that's not my prediction for this Sunday. But if
(23:21):
they're not able to consistently field an offense that's anything
close to what they were doing from twenty eighteen to
twenty twenty two, what it shows is that they are
still the class of the NFL. Yes, they're the defending
Super Bowl champions. Where the team be, but they're mortal
and that's something men is that I'm something I'm hopeful for.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Last year with Russell Wilson at the helm in the
sixteen games sample size call, the Sudden finished the season
with seven hundred and.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Seventy two yards and ten touchdowns.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
Right now, at the nine week mark, he is sitting
at four hundred and ninety nine yards in two touchdowns.
Do you believe that Lus' season is over and all
is done, that Collon Sudden will be able to eclipse
the numbers with both nicks that he had with Russell Wilson.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
I think it's possible. What I really, you know, in
my opinion, this season is really about the development of
Bonis and the fact that we're sitting with a record
over five hundred isn't something that we should take for
granted in terms of the rapport between Courtly and everything
that Bonis is doing right now. To back to back
one hundred yard games right seven receptions and ten targets
(24:31):
one hundred and twenty two yards, it was one of
the few high points of last week's blowout. What I'm
looking more aar is that he is playing his best
football right now as Bonis is developing, so, you know, injuries, health,
the rest of the season has yet to be determined.
But I am excited Nick that he's playing his best
football over the last two years, arguably over the last
(24:52):
two weeks.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Does the lack of skill position players or the changing
rogue's gallery as it were, has that been part of
this decrease or is this really just all on Mahomes
and the way the offense is structured now.
Speaker 5 (25:08):
It's absolutely not fully on Mahomes, and I think it's
something that in team sports he failed to appreciate just
how important it is to be surrounded by talent. So
when you had Tyreek Hill at the peak of his
power and Travis Kelsey at the peak of his power,
and the many weapons and the continuity that they were
really able to put together for a period of time
when Mahomes is at his best, of course, that had
(25:31):
a lot to do with his success. I do think
Mahomes is regressing. I'm concerned about his health. I'm glad
he was able to finish the game against Tampa Bay.
You mean you see a lot of the plays then
that he makes out of structure, that baseball sand lot style.
He does things with his body that no other quarterback
in football can do. But in my opinion, you can
only contort your body in so many ways seventeen regular
(25:54):
season games a year plus postseason for a certain period
of time before you're bound to miss some games. So
if you look at my gold standard for the quarterback position,
Peyton Manning, outside of the neck injury, he never missed
the game until a final season in twenty fifteen. He
was a pocket pouncer and he didn't bring that added
dimension that Mahomes does, but he tore defenses apart at
(26:14):
a rate even higher than what Mahomes has been able
to do without the advantage of that dual threat. So
I'm not saying Mahomes shouldn't be Mahomes, but I'm seeing
some limitations in his game. I'm seeing some chicks in
the paint. So we'll see what happens moving forward, but
I do think there's a cause for concern in Kansas City,
and so far as to say what people are saying
(26:36):
that what we saw from twenty eighteen through twenty twenty fifty,
he's just going to do that for another thirteen fourteen
years and break Tom Brady's record. That's never been realistic
and we're kind of seeing that now.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
So well, right, you know, with that being said and
known as though Patrick Mahomes is not playing now, as
though he played like four years ago, the Chiefs under
his leadership have proven to be a team that can
definitely finish. And it's interesting that you mentioned Patrick Mahomes
(27:07):
and Tom Brady. Brady became one of those types of
guys like John Elway well when their skills started to diminish,
not saying that patrick skills are completely diminishing, they just became.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
More efficient in the fourth quarter.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Could that be where the evolution of Patrick Mahomes has
now progressed too.
Speaker 5 (27:28):
He's one of the most clutch players. I don't like
using the word clutch. I think he's the best postseason
performing quarterback of our lifetime for sure, probably of all
time as he retired today. So again, he obviously delivers
in those clutch moments. I think is somebody who doesn't
want to just be great in the fourth quarter. He
wants to be great for fourth quarters. The thing about
(27:48):
John Elway that I think we've kind of undersold John
Elway is he had the physical skill set that he
had for the first two thirds of his career in
your right. Towards the end of his career, as his
physical skill set dominic, he was able to find excellence
in a very high powered, talented offense, and Mike Shanahan
is a huge part of it. But he honed and
refined his skills as a pocket pouncer. Mahomes isn't necessarily
(28:12):
doing that right now, and that's one of the things
that a quarterback can do to extend the longevity of
their career. I'm not saying at Mahomes' age seems to
necessarily be transitioning to where Elway was in his late thirties.
But I think the goal for Pat is to play
elite football four quarters every week.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
TYO, Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter, contributor
at the Pro Football Hall of Fame. All right, Ryan
brass tax, Bronco's taken all the chiefs in Arrowhead this week.
Speaker 4 (28:36):
You got me pumped up.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
You told me Pat Mahomes the bum that the devil
Broncos a going to steamroll.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
And what is your final prediction?
Speaker 5 (28:43):
You know, I think they're getting seven and a half
last I checked, and I think that's a favorable that's
a favorable bet. I have the final score at twenty
eight to seventeen, and I think they're going to win
by double digits. I think it's going to be a
competitive game, but I do think that Mahomes is due
for another strong performance. And I don't believe our defense
is what we were last week against Baltimore. I think
(29:04):
we're going to clean it up. I don't think that
Mahomes is going to be dropping a perfect one fifty
eight point three passer rating, but I think a close
game will kind of pull out of reach in the
second half. I hope to be wrong, but we'll talk
next week. We'll see where're at.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
That we will, my friend, and we appreciate you joining
us as always look forward to deep diving on the nums.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Hopefully at never Broncos wit even though you are predicting
them to lose.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter, we always
enjoy having him on the show. Nick, what did you
think of him saying that Pat Mahomes is washed?
Speaker 3 (29:39):
I don't think he actually put it in those terms.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
Now we sound like Ryan Edwards, but I can understand
when you look at the statistical data, it doesn't look
great for Patrick Mahomes in comparison to any of the
other quarterbacks, but more importantly.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
To year's pass Andy Reid's offense.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
But this is where you progress to as a player,
where things start to change and evolve with you, like
you start learning different ways to win games. Think about
Michael Jordan. When he first came into the.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
League to the NBA. He was flying high. That was
dunks and all these types of things.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
As he starts to get wiser as a player, he
started to develop more of a jump shot and more
of a three point shooting stature, but that wasn't who
he was.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
But it's an evolution.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
This is not to take away from Patrick Mahomes and
saying that he's not one of the top players in
the league right now. Sometimes you have to learn different
ways to win ball games. And to me, that's the
thing that makes you dangerous because the one thing that
everyone knew you to be, you're not doing that same thing.
You just it's an evolution, almost like a caterpillar become
(30:55):
in a bubbleply right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
But it's it's like magic. Well it's kind of like magic,
but it's not.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
It's the magic that you don't want to see if
you're a Broncos fan.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Well, right, And you know, to me, part of it is,
you know, whatever gripes I have with Eric the enemy,
and I had plenty, there was something to what he
brought to the table because the offense when he was
there versus the offense with Matt now he has not
been the same. So whether that's him on the side
being afraid of him barking at you on the sideline,
(31:27):
or something he actually brought to the table in terms
of actually whatever the case may be. And we've seen
that his offense is by himself, if not exactly lit
the world on fire, might have got his quarterback lit
on fire in Washington last year when Sam Howe got
sacked something like seventy times. But it I mean, we've
seen enough to know that there's a difference with him
not being there, you know, and maybe maybe it's like
a cake, you know, you skip one ingreeted and it
tastes nasty, you know.
Speaker 6 (31:49):
Yeah, you can't put to can't put salt instead of
show now, Oh you can No, I know, I know
they looked the same, looks takes it entirely different.
Speaker 4 (31:58):
So I think that there's something to that.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
I think there's something to some of the skill position
players that they've sort of been missing, and I think
that's part of the reason they went got new you know,
and did that kind of so I think that they
were relying on mahomes to do everything, and it was
a lot easier when you had Tyreek Hill there and
a healthy Isaiah p at Checko and Travis Kelcey and
his prime and you know, in.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
Those kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
I think that there's a combination of things that have
led to what it is that is Kansas City. I
don't want to call it, decline offensively, but to the
place where they're at offensively.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Now, which is not the heights they used to sar
at Brocos country night. We got hit a break. We'll
be back up this
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