Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Five six six million zero is the text line Grassmen
sex Seger's back there behind the glass, gonna go out
to the k wait commas borl the hot line right away,
Ran I got Tim Jenkins, Tim, how you doing, buddy?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm doing great. I'm doing great.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
How are you doing, mom?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Man?
Speaker 4 (00:15):
I'm doing pretty good.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I watched this Broncos game, and I know it's a
soul crushing loss in the way that it ended, but
I felt like there were optimistic things to take away
from it. It's the first time I watched Bo in
a game and I said.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Okay, we've got somebody here.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I mean, there have been elements of his growth throughout
the you know, the process and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
But you know, this wasn't Bo beating up on a.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Bad Panthers team, or you know, beating up on the
Saints or Bucks who don't have half their defense there
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
This was a legitimate Super.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Bowl defense, a top defense, and he went out there
and absolutely put the work in, and I took a
lot of confidence away from that.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think it's
just like you said, right, a lot of optimism are
coming out of it. I think it's rushing. For how
long me and you have been doing this together. You
sit there and you go like this the first time
in a long time that it felt like, hey, we've
got a game and control against the Chiefs, right.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
I think people take.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
For granted, you know, obviously they're in the division, so
you know there's an extra thing to it. But people
take for granted how good that football team is. And
and I know that there are you know, five plays
away from being four and five or whatever people want
to say, but right now they're nine to zero in
the National Football League. So the fact that if we
just don't have someone squatting right when they're trying to
hold up on a s field goal block, like, we
(01:34):
probably walk out of there with a win. And I
think people are feeling really good. The one that stood
out to me the most that I really agree with
you on bo being a guy was the third and short.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
The third and short they go play action.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
He it's Courtland Sutton. You know they're both supposed to go.
Speaker 6 (01:48):
The tight end on that little over route.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Courtland's the second progression, right, he works to it. It's
not him getting into.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
A second progression, right, because He's done that a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I think he does do a really good job reading
the concept to me though it's completing that ball. I
can't tell you how many times I felt like the
for the past few years, it's like the Broncos are throwing.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Go routes, just roll them right like.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It was like very few and far in between that
we would actually hit one in stride right. We would
underthrow a couple for PI and then every once in
a while the receiver would make a great play. But
it never felt like our quarterback was really like, Okay, hey,
we're actually throwing this go ball to complete it. And
then we hit that one and what was a huge
moment at the time of the game. So that was
I think the clip that really stood out to where
(02:30):
you know, I'm in total agreement with you, where you
started to feel like, man, he's really making the steps
to be a franchise guy.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And I agree, I think he's I think he has
definitely headed that direction. You know, we'll see how high
the ceiling can you know, can be as he continues
to grow.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
There were some things to clean up in there.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We still don't have the connection down with Troy Franklin
going vertical. You mentioned that on the go ball he's
overthrowing a couple up that left sidelined, and then there
were two balls where he was just you know, bailing
out backwards, throwing off his back foot and putting it up,
putting up a prayer. And he's gotten away with it
for a lot our port of this year doing stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
But he's got to clean that up.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You got to find a way to uh to reset
because bow does not have the arm talent to be
slinging things falling off off your back foot and be
able to be able to connect on those.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, there's no doubt.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
There's no doubt he.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Can't connect on those.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
A lot of those too.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Man, I when I look.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
At it, it's it's it's I don't want to say frustrating,
But my worry is what is our process the line
of scrimmage, because what's happening on a lot of these
the lines actually turning away right.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You know, typical protection you have you know your center
working the one side right, either your center's working with
left guard left tackle or right guard right tackle, and
then you got the man on the back side and
you know center will be working away. We've got our
man side and we've got a you know, a d
N and a tackle on those two man side, and
then we also get pressure and it's like we're not hot, right,
(03:51):
Like there's no one breaking off hot. Bow's kind of
staying in there like you're saying he's fading away. So
to me, my bigger concern is like, hey, why are
we not protected up? And then simultaneously, why do we not.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
You know, have our hype or are hot or our site.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And then you sit there and you're kind of like,
you know, that's not Sean Payton, right. To me, it's
like there's stuff that you could criticize Sean for that's
not it. His offense can have built in hats and sites.
A lot of times, right, it's on the quarterback and
the receiver if we have the same page, and usually
the quarterback to over communicate, hey, if it you know,
if this guy's coming right, Hey, it takes two or
it takes one, whatever it is to where these receivers
(04:28):
know they're hot. So I think that's also a concern
to me, right where it's like, you know, you have
the ones that he's bailing out in the pockets clean,
but you also have the ones where it's like somehow
we're turning multiple rushers free on a look that we
probably should be able to slide our protection or get
us into the right look to block it up, and
we're fading away. And like you said, right, he's gotten
away with it. But you know, as you look at
(04:51):
where this Broncos team is, and you really kind of
start to get this feeling of you know, you got Indianapolis,
Denver and Cincinnati kind of those are gonna be what
the the ones fighting for that last spot right or
the sixth or the seventh seed, and and you kind
of worry, Okay, long term, we've gotten away with it
so far, like you said, but that's the kind of
stuff that costs you in one of those late games
(05:12):
down the stretch, and you'd hate to drop one to
you know, we play Cincinnati down the stretch, like you'd
hate to drop that one that means something for the
playoffs because you know we're bailing out and throwing it
off our back foot.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Absolutely, talk with Tim Jenkins, T Jenkins Elite, you know,
real quick, I want a pivot. I don't know if
did you watch the the Houston Texans game Detroit, Oh Yeah, Okay,
it's something I've noticed.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
And I think teams are finally picking up on it.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
With Bobby slow K's offense, you notice how they slide
everybody and they leave tunsl one on one. Uh And
so what what Detroit was doing in that game was
overloading the slide side and then bailing and then and
then bringing everything from the other side where Tunson was
one on one. And teams have been doing that against
Straus successfully this year. We're seeing a regression. What can
they do to pick up on that and and and
kind of find a way to work around that because
(05:56):
that concept killed for him last year.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
But everybody's everybody's wise.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Now I know that what I think is a it's
a first and foremost it's a great question, But secondly,
it's like that's kind of indicative to what you're seeing
across the league. I think Houston obviously has a bigger
issue with it. But you're seeing all these simulated pressures
right where they walk up and they have what we
call a cap defender, meaning the safety's over top of
(06:22):
the linebacker. So it really gives you every indication that
they're coming right and they're walked up and then all
of a sudden last second, they'll spin out and they'll
bring it from the other side. These simulated pressures are
killing you, though, because what they actually end up doing
is they end up only bringing like four or five.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
It's not like a true pressure. You're not getting five
or six or seven guys. They're usually bringing four or five.
But the way they did it, you manipulate your protection
to where you're still have free runners and guess what,
they have extra droppers, right, compared to normal Normally we're
used to facing Hey, a six man rush, right, you're
playing five behind. You're in kind of like that thirty
two fire zone, or you're trying to man everybody up
(07:00):
like that's what quarterbacks you've just seen it right now,
because with these simulated pressures, really like you're you're kind
of sol because it's really tough to do it. The
easiest way to solve this, though, is you see the
Broncos are doing it a lot, in my opinion, and
I think it's really smart. When you start to get
these okay, hey we're gonna get a simulated pressure. Sean
does one or two things. They're getting it empty. Right,
(07:21):
It's tough to simulated pressure when you're an empty because
the more we spread you out, the harder it is.
The cap defenders and do all this stuff, you really
got to show your hand when somebody's empty or sean
gets super heavy and blocks it up. Right, those are
really the two ways you got to attack it. Hey,
we either add people in this box, then we really
scan our protection because we're in the gun, right, our
guards can scan and our backs. So you either getting
(07:43):
the gun with two tight ends, maybe a back too,
and you really scan everybody and or you empty it out.
Speaker 6 (07:49):
I would also advocate for you know, if you're facing
a team that's gonna.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Bring a lot of simulated pressure. For me, Like, what
I would live in is I'd live in twelve first
and all, I'm third and long. I live in that
one back, two tight end, but I would also be
an empty out of that, right, I'd be in twelve personnel,
but I'd be an empty. So it forces those thick
ankles right that you get those thick ankles outside, you
make them cover in space. But also whenever you want
(08:15):
to really block it up and try to shoot it
down the field, you can do that too.
Speaker 6 (08:17):
So to me, that's kind of the way I would
lean to try to answer this.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Stuff with some stimulated pressure to look. But I do think, man,
they're reaking havoc on protections in the NFL, and they've
been around for a little bit. But I just think
teams are getting a lot better at the disguise that
goes along with it. Now.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, and we've certainly seen offensive production drop over the
last couple of years, partially because everybody's going to too
high and you know, ben don't break philosophies. And then
part of it's, you know, like we said, the same
pressures and people get better disguising this defense that they're.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Catching back up to offenses.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I it'd be interesting to see what new rules the
NFL implements to get the scoring sparked again as far
as that kind of stuff goes. Talking about Tim Jenkins said,
T Jenkins elite as we as we look forward to
the Atlanta Falcons, this is a tough offensive matchup, a
little bit different than what Kansas than what's faced over
the last two weeks. I mean, you had Lamar, you know,
in his mobility, and there's just the sheer size and
(09:04):
physicality Derrick Henry. Then you get Pat Mahomes and you
know that cannon for an arm and and everything else.
Now you're you're going with a team that's a bit
more traditional, a drop back passer and Kirk Cousins, they've
got some some talent on the outsides of talent of
the tight end position and a stud running back.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
How do you how do you do your.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Best to defend what it is the Falcons are going
to throw at you.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, it's such a good point because they have gone
through this gauntlet right of where you've got Lamar, who
you're you're more worried about personnel that you got Mahomes,
who you do worry about a little bit pre snap,
but then you now you got Kurt right and and
what you worry about Kirk is not postna. You worry
that he's gonna beat the hell out of your pre
snap though, right Like, that's you know, if you're sitting there,
(09:45):
you're in your vans, Joseph, what you're worried about is, hey, man,
I can't show my front's too earlier. I can't show
my pressures too early. And it's not just you know this, man,
it's not just the past game, right Like, that's what
most fans see and they get excited about. It's when
Kirk kills them from what would have been a one
yard run into a six yard run, right, and then
now they're in second and four and they're staying ahead
of the chain. Those are the things a lot of
(10:07):
fans are always like, Man, I can't believe Cousins keeps
getting these forty million dollar deals until you, you know,
get him on a whiteboard and you realize that, you know,
white a dry erase marker is an absolute weapon in
the NFL. Right, if you're good at that process of it,
if you're good at that piece of it, you can
you can really put your offense in a great situation.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
But to me, it's like you.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Almost lean towards how much can we disguise without ever
getting caught out of position?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Can we give him a bunch of different looks to
where we make them over communicate the line of scrimmage?
Speaker 6 (10:39):
You know?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Can we can we kind of force their hand into
you know, really trying to get in and out of
plays versus being able to kind of get up the
line and run it. That would kind of, you know,
be my best best I also think, you know, they're
coming off a tough loss. Where they're sitting there and
it's like, yeah, I don't know. This is a tough
one for me. It's one of those trap games where
I think a lot of people, you know, feel like, Okay,
(11:00):
you know, they see Atlanta's record, but they feel like, oh,
you know, they're the Falcons, and I just don't think
they are anymore. I think they're a pretty dark, good
football team. And this is the one that worries me
because you know, if you steal one against Kansas City,
this game all of a sudden becomes droppable, right you're
and you're not. Now it's like, man, we really gotta
kind of I mean this, we gotta win this thing,
(11:23):
especially the same as playoff on. To me, it's like
these are the kind the kind of teams that freak
you out because I feel like sometimes you can underestimate
going into it and then all of a sudden, you
know they're dashing us for six or seven yards of
pop because they're getting into the right run playing and
from there you know they're ahead of the chains and
they're taking shots and and you know how it is
that's dangerous in the NFL if all of a sudden,
someone in second and short because they can run all
(11:44):
that hard run action and play action, and then they
can recap it on the secondary, no matter how dark
good your secondary is.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, talk with Tim Jenkinson, and that's the thing. You
knew that this part of the schedule, these three games
is gonna be tough. You need to get one of
the three. You really have to get this game to
keep you above five hundred puts you back at six
and five.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
The next three it's pretty winnable.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I mean, the Raiders have been kind of a mess,
the Brown has been a bit of a mess. Colts
have been a bit of a mess. And you got
a bye week before that one. So the next three
games look like something to get you back on track
after that Falcons game. So if you take that, if
you if you do get that Falcons game, now you're
six and five, you win the next three. All of
a sudden, you talk about nine and five going into
that that tough last stretch there with the Chargers, Bengals
and Chiefs, and you're sitting pretty at that point.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Well the thing is too I mean, and they're not
just be too optimistic, but you sit there and it's like,
you know, even hypothetically let's say you win three of
the next four, right, like you're saying, instead of you know,
nine to five are sitting there at eight and six
or whatever. It's like, dude, you know, I feel like
the Broncos have proven that they outside of the Ravens game,
when you go on the road and you play in
(12:42):
that early window, right, you sit there and it's like
they've played some pretty darn competitive football.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
So you think, hey, you got the Chiefs at home.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Who knows where they're going to be out in terms
of have they locked up the one seed? Whatever? You know,
you got the Chargers, which felt like a way more
competitive game than the scoreboard reflected when they played. And
he's got Cincinnati, who Cincinnati feels like one of those
teams who's a really good football team, but for some reason,
play just plays everybody to a one possession game, and
you know how his one possession gets. In the NFL,
those can go either way. So I don't know, I'm
(13:12):
I'm I'm really optimistic about them having a chance to
make the playoffs. And you know how it is, once
you get in the show, you know, anything can happen,
especially with how good this Broncos defense is. And you
see Bou progressing, I think there's a lot of exciting
times ahead. And I think it's a you know, it's
a it's a it's a far.
Speaker 6 (13:29):
Cry from where we were at this time last.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Year when we were coming on to talking. So I'm
excited about where they're at, and I think we all
should be excited about, like you're saying, Bo's progression on
not only being able to read stuff and making those
big moment pros. And you know, I think the there's
a lot of optimism and then, you know, I come
on here and say that, and then next week, all
of a sudden, it's like you, they'll get beat by
thirty and then we'll be yelling at each her. You know.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But that's certainly, certainly a possibility in the ups and
downs of a rookie as far as that goes, I mean,
he's not a rookie as Russell Wilson, who has come
audi in relief of Justin Fields in Pittsburgh and raise
the scoring average the offense. They were averaging twenty points
a game with Fields or averaging thirty two a game
with Russ right now. And I don't know, if you
watch a Washington game and he looked like he was
having fun for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, Russ is it's good to see him doing that.
And I what I will say is, you know, I
think Sean and Russ right, you know, who knows how
that all went down. What I will say is, I
do think if you're a veteran quarterback and you're looking
to stabilize your career, I don't know if there's a
better spot on planet Earth than Mike Tomlin. Right, Like,
(14:33):
just the way that they're going to build their football team,
I don't know. I feel like we could. You know,
sometimes I do all the Bears stuff too, and it's
like sometimes you sit there and it's like, I feel
like if you just picked up the Chicago Bears and
gave him to Tomlin and Pittsburgh, they would all of
a sudden be better. Right. It's just like he's one
of those coaches that you.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
You feel that way with. I feel that way with
Sean right now too.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
I feel like we're starting to see an elevated product.
So to me, I think it's great for us. I mean, obviously,
you know, it would have been awesome to see him
work out in Denver, but I just think when you
look at the contract he had and all these other things,
it was time for Denver to move on. But it's
good to see that he's having success. And it's you know,
I mean, it's always exciting to see what Tomlin's doing
with those guys in Pittsburgh. And I mean, shoot, right
(15:16):
now that they're kind of whoever they're rolling out seems
to be having success under center. Maybe I'll get out
there and try to do a little rehab stit to
see if I can, you know, make a run. If
I can make a run anywhere, it's probably gonna be Pittsburgh.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
We're going to make Netflix documentary just to come back.
It's happening.
Speaker 7 (15:31):
I'm here for all of it. Tim, what what's the
biggest thing you want to see on a bow this weekend?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Real quick?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
My biggest thing is is a couple more of those
protection checks, Like we talked about it. If we can
see him manipulate the Mike backer do some stuff where
he slide in the line to get himself blocked up,
I think that's his next step. I think we've seen
him getting them get them in and out of the
right run to pass or pass to run now that
next step to me is really solidifying his protection and
making sure he's blocked up with it.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Tim Jenkin, t jins Elite, Jenkins Elite, You all know
who he is. We always appreciate having you. Tim. Look
forward checking in with you again here.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Soon brother, you the man. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Here's the man talk etch letter, Tim Jenkins, we come back.
Ryan Michael set Twitter up Laze earlier today. We're gonna
check in with him and have him defend his position
on the inside the number segment cut him next.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Special thanks to Hall of.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Famer Steve Atwater for joining us in the first hour.
Tim Jenkins for joining us in the last segment. You
missed any of that, you go to Brockcos Country Night
dot Com, Slash podcast or where it gets podcast Apple,
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app whether you can get to take it for Granted
podcast as well, which I constantly normally I harangue Grants
for a new episode. I won't do that tonight. I
(16:44):
know how hard Grant's working back there, but you guys
could do that. I six six nine zeros a text line.
You guys can totally sit there and harass Grant into
dropping new episodes of my favorite podcast, to Take It
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(17:05):
Verizon and Park Meadows So on South Yosemity Street, Loan Tree.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
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Speaker 4 (17:22):
With that, let's go out to the KWAE Commas Growth.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Hotline to bring our guy, Ryan Michael at the Ryan
Michael on Twitter. Ryan, you set Twitter ablaze a little
earlier today. I caught some friendly fire in there. It's fine,
I'm used to it, but I want to get into
this stuff. You posted on Twitter and it looked like
you had some numbers there to back it up that
we're going to get the deep dive in this. But
after the Broncos sixteen to fourteen loss to the Chiefs
(17:44):
in Kansas City, how are you feeling about the team's
offense ten games into the twenty twenty four.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Season not the great ben It could be worse, but
it could certainly be a lot better. As it stands
right now, we ranked twenty second in the lead and scoring,
and that's also accounting for two defensive touchdowns. So it
hasn't been the version of Sean Payton that I think
all of us were expecting prior to him coming to town. Certainly,
(18:13):
there's been growth at the quarterback position, and I'm pleasantly
surprised that we're sitting at five hundred and ten games
into the season. But for me, I'm focusing much more
so on the big picture, really, and that's really what
my chart was about. In terms of what Sean Payton
had done with Drew Brees, that's familiar territory, right one
of the greatest resumes in the NFL has ever seen
(18:34):
as far as an offensive play caller and a head coach.
But it's those other twelve seasons been that he's had
outside of Drew Brees, and I think we have a
big enough sample now where we can at least have
a conversation about it.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Well. That was part of my concern when Sean Payton
was hired. I had several things that. You know, I
brought up like, well, Sean only got you know, he
had Drew Brees, He only got one super Bowl in
that run when he was out. The year that he
was suspended and he was out, there wasn't that much
of a production drop off in the offense, to be
honest with you. As a matter of fact, I think
it got better on a on a per play basis.
(19:08):
Now the following year when he came back, it got
even better than that. So there's you know, there's given
take with that. There's context to both sides that argument.
But you know that was I had some concerns when
you know, when he was hired, how much of his
success in New Orleans should be credited to Drew Brees?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
How much of that belongs to Sean Payton.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
We often hear the the you know, the Belichick Bill Brady,
Bill Belichick, Tom Brady thing. Why not the same for
Sean Payton Drew Brees. Why don't we hear that conversation there?
Speaker 5 (19:34):
I think anytime we have this conversation, we tend to
oversimplify it and we forget that there are a lot
more people involved in just the head coach and the quarterback.
So I'll speak in very general terms, right there are
a lot of players on all of those rosters and
a lot of assistant coaches. I think before Sewn took
over here in Denver, the perception amongst fans might have
been somewhere to the tune of sixty percent Seawan forty
(19:56):
percent Drew, and I would say a year and a
half into his run in Denver, maybe that's switched a
little bit. Maybe people are thinking forty percent Sewan, sixty
percent Drew. There's no question the two of them would
not have reached the hype that they reached without having
each other. So it's a collaborative effort. When you look
at what Drew has done outside of Sean Payton to
(20:17):
the point of twenty twelve, they get to in a second.
His last two years in San Diego, the team ranked
third and scoring in two thousand shorshes and scoring in
two thousand and five. I know you've made the point
many times that what Sean Payton did was he allowed
Drew to throw the ball more. So there was more volume, certainly,
But if you go to the twenty twelve season that
you reference with the head coach combo of Aaron Cromer
(20:39):
and Joe Vitt. Drew Brees through for five thousand, one
hundred and seventy seven yards forty three touchdown passes, and
it wasn't exactly a stack roster. The defense was awful.
They finished thirty first in the league in points surrendered,
which wasn't unlike what happened under Sean Payton's watch. But
what Drew was able to produce without him, He virtually
didn't skip the beat, threw a lot more picks that year.
(21:00):
Part of that myfunction of having a defense at second
last and points surrendered. But the resume that Sean Payton
has outside of Drew Brees isn't nearly as pretty as
Druis is without Sean Payton.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Talking with Ryan Michael the Ryan Michael on Twitter, and
I guess I have to ask, why do you hate
Sean Pam's kidding that you and I both get a
little bit of that on Twitter, which it buzzs me
a little bit because I'm like, why why are we
so soft? We can't do honest criticism? You know that
there are things here to talk about, there are things
It's okay to have conversations about things, whether right or wrong,
it's okay to explore premises, and that's a part of
(21:33):
what we do on this show. How when we look
at Sean Payton, what do you attribute his sort of
steep statistical drop off two.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
Well, there are a lot of factors before we get
into that. Then I think we can lay this to
rest this narrative that you and I don't like Sean Payton.
I think we're in agreement. We would much rather cover
a winner. We would much rather cover a top five
offense if we were given the choice. Right, So it's
not exactly what we've seen over the last two weeks
average twelve points per game. Let me ask you this
(22:03):
Ben on a scale of one to ten relative to
all of the context, which is completely fair. He inherited
a team with a quarterback that was in this choice
last year. We're rebuilding an in salary cap heal this year,
so it's not as though he's walking into the twenty
twenty Tampa Bay Buccaneers offense. We'll give him that on
a scale of one to ten. Given that context, what
(22:23):
grade would you give him?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I give him a six, Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I mean above average for sure, A six, probably six
and a seven somewhere in there. I think that he's
brought a core competency back to this. I think that
he's done the same thing that John Fox did for
the Broncos.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
When Josh McDaniel's got here.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Josh McDaniel's wrecked the culture and you needed somebody, you
needed Daddy to come in and reset the culture, right,
And so the same thing with kind of Nate Hackett,
and then you get Sean Payton here to co sort
of reset the culture.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
And I think both those guys have did a great job.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I think John Fox did a great job resetting that
and sort of rebuilding the base. Gary Kubiak ultimately took
them to the promised Land. I think that Sean Payton
has sort of that and rebuilt the culture, got this
back to me being a professional football team. So whatever
criticisms that I have, in the end, he has done
a successful job in elevating this from a bad team
to at least at this point, a competitive football team.
(23:12):
So you know, somewhere between sixty and seven, with the
opportunity for that to go much higher.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
I think they're fair. But even if you ask the
most optimistic fans in Broncos country listening right now, is
there anybody who would great him, even on their most
optimistic day, higher than an eight based on what we've
seen through twenty seven games so far. So if an
optimistic score is an eight, I have him as a six.
You have him as a six, and seven we'll call
it six and a half. We're talking about a one
(23:37):
to two point difference in terms of perception. So I
don't think that you and I are far off from
even the optimistic listeners listening right now. But to your question,
in terms of what I attribute the steep statistical drop off,
certainly the personnel, certainly the time it takes to implement
your system. Right this is still a new team for him,
even twenty seven games in. I think we do overlook
a little bit all of the strengths that Drew Brees
(23:58):
brought to the table, the information processing and execution. I've
gone on record saying that I considered Drew Brees to
be a top three all time quarterback. I think most
people would be in agreement. He's a future first ballot
Hall of Famer. Most would probably have them towards the bottom,
maybe even just outside of the top ten. I think
he was a lot better than that, and I think
the locker room culture and buy in that they had
(24:19):
in New Orleans is easy when you're winning football games.
So when you have a true unicorn in Drew Brees,
the buy into what Sean Payton's doing in the overall
culture in the locker room tends to be a little
bit higher. So as far as the salary cap, hell,
what we're going through this year, I think there's a
balance between weighing the context and making excuses. So when
you're looking at a team that finished nineteenth and scoring
(24:41):
last year twenty second so far through ten games this year, Again,
I'm not giving him a horrible grade BND, but I
think that we're being reasonable when we're saying he's underachieved
relative to what expectations would have been a year and
a half ago.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
But how much of that, how much of that is him,
and how much of that is on a young quarterback
that's growing. And I think that's the sort of the
question that divides not you and me personally, but divides
the fan base. As far as that goes, I think
there's an unwillingness to admit that he's maybe fallen short
of the benchmarks that he previously had and they use
the justification that this is a rookie quarterback and scrolling,
and I find that justification to be fair. But it's
(25:14):
also fair to say that he hasn't hit those marks.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Sure, and certainly bon Nicks is trending upward. And you
look over the last eight games, he has ten touchdowns
to two ticks, a ninety two point nine passer rating
it's difficult to sack, and three touchdowns on the ground,
one through the air. So boone Nicks is not just
trending upward. And of course I did to be honest
and to be fair to Sean Tayton. I think that
the success that we're seeing with bo right now is
(25:37):
a greater credit to Sean Tayton than the success that
Russell Wilson had with a very underrated season last year.
I think was more in spite of Sean system than
because of it. So you can have a quarterback trending upward,
but we have to remember it's not just the quarterback position.
I wish Nick w was tonight because he emphasized that
point too. It's not about just one player. So even
if we acknowledge both, we're having a really good game
(25:59):
against Kansas City. I feel he outplayed Patrick Mahomes in
arguably the toughest stadium to play in the league. Give
Bow all the credits, but it's still a team spot
for coming off back to back games, were ravaging twelve
points a game.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
There's a lot of work to do well right, And
I think that's the other side of the coin here
is that. You know, for me, I've been bickering with
people on Twitter who attribute everything to a penalty flag
in the you know, in the second quarter, and that
didn't even have the biggest WPA probability ad play there.
It was the Kareem Hunt nineteen yard catch and run
with the broken tackles several plays later. Like for me,
(26:34):
when I look at this, I'm like, Okay, we there's
optimism here in the sense that the Broncos belong Clearly
they belonged. They had a game in hand against Super
Bowl champion who was undefeated.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Bo did it against a good defense. This wasn't Bo
beating up on bad Carolina Panthers. This wasn't Bo beating.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Up on a New Orleans team or a Tampa team
that was missing half their defense. This was a starting caliber,
Super Bowl caliber defense. And both came in and outplayed
as Super Bowl champion quarterback, possibly one of the best
in the game, and I think there's certainly optimism to
take from that, and at the same time conversations to
be had about, well, we should have had this in
(27:10):
the bag much more, why are we not scoring points
in the second half and getting into those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Well, I think that we also have to find the
balance between how much credit do we give Sean for
the upward trajectory of the team, because I'm not one
for moral victories. We're a block field goal away from
knocking off an undefeated, two time defending Super Bowl champion,
so that's something to be excited about. It's been forever
since we could say that. At the same time, it's
(27:38):
the defensive side of the ball that's been knocking it
out of the park. Fourth in the league in points surrendered,
second in the league, thirty five sacks collectively as a team,
second in the league, seventy four quarterback hits. Vans Joseph's
defense is exceeding expectations, especially given how far we've come
from last year. And while I won't say that none
of that is a credit to Sean Payton when you
look back to his ears with New Orleans and the
(28:00):
offense was knocking it out of the part. As a
defense was ranked thirty at thirty first, dead last, And
those are some actual rankings. I didn't hear many people
criticizing Sean Payton in the defense was falling short because
he's an offensive minded head coach. So I'll give him
credit for turning around the culture. Sure, but I think
what we're accomplishing on defense is more a credit to
Vance Joseph than it is Sean Payton. If it weren't
(28:20):
for the reality that we have a top four defense,
what is our record? We're five and five right now.
What are we if our defense ranked twenty second in
points per game surrounded?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Now, what does the offense look like at that point
when you're forced into other positions in terms of trying
to play catch up? Talking Ryan Michael, a former offensive
analyst of Barcelona Dragons, contributed Pro Football Hall of Fame
and the Ryan Michael on Twitter. If I think we
do expect BO to continue to grow, right, I think
we all expect that. But if that growth is slower
or doesn't really happen kind of overnight, if this offense
(28:49):
gets stuck in purgatory, what does this mean for the
team over the next year and a half.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Well, we're with Sean Payton for the next year and
a half for sure. We're tethered to him for better
or for worse, and I am rooting for him to
succeed every week. I'm never rooting against them. I'm the
first person to give him credit when the offense is producing.
We're still waiting for that to happen. And I think
we have a very favorable set of games coming up
in the coming week, So that is something that if
you're looking for optimism. I think Atlanta is beatable. I
(29:17):
think I don't think they're as talented as their win
loss record is. And certainly the Raiders in Cleveland before
the bye week very very beatable. The Colt's beatable. There'll
be a tough stretch in the final three with the Chargers, Bangles,
and Chiefs, So this is a good opportunity for him
to show what he can do and to get all
Afronos Country feeling more optimistic. We're going to take it
year by year. Ben, He's not going anywhere. It's just reality.
(29:40):
We can't do anything. Just commenting and covering the team
we're not involved. I think that the outlook is favorable
for the remainder of the season, or at least certainly
over the next four games. It's up to Sean Payton,
the offense, and the team collectively to deliver.
Speaker 7 (29:55):
Oh, Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael as we look
at as we look forward to the Falcon game, here,
what do we need to see in this particular game?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
You know, I mean, obviously a win, but what do
we need to see out of the offense in terms
of the next growth step.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
I think it's a matter of developing some real production
on the ground. I like what we saw in the
final drive against Kansas City. I can't help but think
to myself, why weren't we running some of that a
little bit earlier? I can't Monday morning quarterback. It's easy
or seven done. I think as we establish more balance
on the ground, if that's even achievable, and I'm talking
outside of what bo Nick does with his legs, it's
(30:31):
going to open up things for the passing game. So
there's some goals ahead of us. A little bit more
than a little bit nervous about what Kirk Cousins can do,
because we're talking about a quarterback who's been one of
the best quarterbacks on the road this year. Not only
has he quietly been underrated, seven touchdowns to one tech
on the road, a one hundred and eight point two
passer rating, averages eight point three yards per attempt on
the road. He is a good quarterback on the road
(30:53):
this year, in addition to just being a lot better
than I think people were expecting coming off of an injury.
So a lot of our work cut out for us.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
But it's still in a game, Ryan, We appreciate it
as always, look forward to deep diving next week and
you know, hopefully we can continue this.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
At Twitter on fire.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Sounds good bating here.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
For absolutely Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter
contributor at the Pro Football Hall of Fame, or offensive
analysts the Barcelona Dragons.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
You know it's we with today.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
There was some nasty comments from people that and this
stuff sort of bothers me. It's like, and I get
people making stuffup about me all the time. That's that's
nothing new. But just sit there and trash a guest
that we have on the show for expressing an opinion
and backing it up with data and not you know,
having a civil debate, uh and making up stuff about
(31:41):
hating people and all this kind of stuff. We're not
gonna do that. Just you find somewhere else to go, honestly,
find the worst. I don't care, I won't miss you.
Find somewhere else to go. I'm done putting up with
people that can't tell the truth, can't be honest. And
so if you're not, you know, if you're not gonna
engage in debate and good faith, and I've got no
use for you. And I hope that the people who
obsess over that kind of stuff on Twitter, the people
(32:04):
who make obsessive comments about you know, that kind of
stuff on Twitter, I hope you hear it. You know
this is this is absolutely ludicrous that you're gonna trash
a guest that we have on the show without without
even engaging on their points.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
We come back, We're gonna start previewing this Atlanta Falcons matchup.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
You listen to Broncos Country at night right here on
Kawa
Five six six million zero is the text line Grassmen
sex Seger's back there behind the glass, gonna go out
to the k wait commas borl the hot line right away,
Ran I got Tim Jenkins, Tim, how you doing, buddy?
Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm doing great. I'm doing great.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
How are you doing, mom?
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Man?
Speaker 4 (00:15):
I'm doing pretty good.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I watched this Broncos game, and I know it's a
soul crushing loss in the way that it ended, but
I felt like there were optimistic things to take away
from it. It's the first time I watched Bo in
a game and I said.
Speaker 4 (00:27):
Okay, we've got somebody here.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I mean, there have been elements of his growth throughout
the you know, the process and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
But you know, this wasn't Bo beating up on a.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Bad Panthers team, or you know, beating up on the
Saints or Bucks who don't have half their defense there
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 4 (00:40):
This was a legitimate Super.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Bowl defense, a top defense, and he went out there
and absolutely put the work in, and I took a
lot of confidence away from that.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I think it's
just like you said, right, a lot of optimism are
coming out of it. I think it's rushing. For how
long me and you have been doing this together. You
sit there and you go like this the first time
in a long time that it felt like, hey, we've
got a game and control against the Chiefs, right.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
I think people take.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
For granted, you know, obviously they're in the division, so
you know there's an extra thing to it. But people
take for granted how good that football team is. And
and I know that there are you know, five plays
away from being four and five or whatever people want
to say, but right now they're nine to zero in
the National Football League. So the fact that if we
just don't have someone squatting right when they're trying to
hold up on a s field goal block, like, we
(01:34):
probably walk out of there with a win. And I
think people are feeling really good. The one that stood
out to me the most that I really agree with
you on bo being a guy was the third and short.
Speaker 6 (01:44):
The third and short they go play action.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
He it's Courtland Sutton. You know they're both supposed to go.
Speaker 6 (01:48):
The tight end on that little over route.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Courtland's the second progression, right, he works to it. It's
not him getting into.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
A second progression, right, because He's done that a lot.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I think he does do a really good job reading
the concept to me though it's completing that ball. I
can't tell you how many times I felt like the
for the past few years, it's like the Broncos are throwing.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Go routes, just roll them right like.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
It was like very few and far in between that
we would actually hit one in stride right. We would
underthrow a couple for PI and then every once in
a while the receiver would make a great play. But
it never felt like our quarterback was really like, Okay, hey,
we're actually throwing this go ball to complete it. And
then we hit that one and what was a huge
moment at the time of the game. So that was
I think the clip that really stood out to where
(02:30):
you know, I'm in total agreement with you, where you
started to feel like, man, he's really making the steps
to be a franchise guy.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
And I agree, I think he's I think he has
definitely headed that direction. You know, we'll see how high
the ceiling can you know, can be as he continues
to grow.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
There were some things to clean up in there.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
We still don't have the connection down with Troy Franklin
going vertical. You mentioned that on the go ball he's
overthrowing a couple up that left sidelined, and then there
were two balls where he was just you know, bailing
out backwards, throwing off his back foot and putting it up,
putting up a prayer. And he's gotten away with it
for a lot our port of this year doing stuff
like that.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
But he's got to clean that up.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
You got to find a way to uh to reset
because bow does not have the arm talent to be
slinging things falling off off your back foot and be
able to be able to connect on those.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
Yeah, there's no doubt.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
There's no doubt he.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Can't connect on those.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
A lot of those too.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Man, I when I look.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
At it, it's it's it's I don't want to say frustrating,
But my worry is what is our process the line
of scrimmage, because what's happening on a lot of these
the lines actually turning away right.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
You know, typical protection you have you know your center
working the one side right, either your center's working with
left guard left tackle or right guard right tackle, and
then you got the man on the back side and
you know center will be working away. We've got our
man side and we've got a you know, a d
N and a tackle on those two man side, and
then we also get pressure and it's like we're not hot, right,
(03:51):
Like there's no one breaking off hot. Bow's kind of
staying in there like you're saying he's fading away. So
to me, my bigger concern is like, hey, why are
we not protected up? And then simultaneously, why do we not.
Speaker 6 (04:02):
You know, have our hype or are hot or our site.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And then you sit there and you're kind of like,
you know, that's not Sean Payton, right. To me, it's
like there's stuff that you could criticize Sean for that's
not it. His offense can have built in hats and sites.
A lot of times, right, it's on the quarterback and
the receiver if we have the same page, and usually
the quarterback to over communicate, hey, if it you know,
if this guy's coming right, Hey, it takes two or
it takes one, whatever it is to where these receivers
(04:28):
know they're hot. So I think that's also a concern
to me, right where it's like, you know, you have
the ones that he's bailing out in the pockets clean,
but you also have the ones where it's like somehow
we're turning multiple rushers free on a look that we
probably should be able to slide our protection or get
us into the right look to block it up, and
we're fading away. And like you said, right, he's gotten
away with it. But you know, as you look at
(04:51):
where this Broncos team is, and you really kind of
start to get this feeling of you know, you got Indianapolis,
Denver and Cincinnati kind of those are gonna be what
the the ones fighting for that last spot right or
the sixth or the seventh seed, and and you kind
of worry, Okay, long term, we've gotten away with it
so far, like you said, but that's the kind of
stuff that costs you in one of those late games
(05:12):
down the stretch, and you'd hate to drop one to
you know, we play Cincinnati down the stretch, like you'd
hate to drop that one that means something for the
playoffs because you know we're bailing out and throwing it
off our back foot.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Absolutely, talk with Tim Jenkins, T Jenkins Elite, you know,
real quick, I want a pivot. I don't know if
did you watch the the Houston Texans game Detroit, Oh Yeah, Okay,
it's something I've noticed.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
And I think teams are finally picking up on it.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
With Bobby slow K's offense, you notice how they slide
everybody and they leave tunsl one on one. Uh And
so what what Detroit was doing in that game was
overloading the slide side and then bailing and then and
then bringing everything from the other side where Tunson was
one on one. And teams have been doing that against
Straus successfully this year. We're seeing a regression. What can
they do to pick up on that and and and
kind of find a way to work around that because
(05:56):
that concept killed for him last year.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
But everybody's everybody's wise.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Now I know that what I think is a it's
a first and foremost it's a great question, But secondly,
it's like that's kind of indicative to what you're seeing
across the league. I think Houston obviously has a bigger
issue with it. But you're seeing all these simulated pressures
right where they walk up and they have what we
call a cap defender, meaning the safety's over top of
(06:22):
the linebacker. So it really gives you every indication that
they're coming right and they're walked up and then all
of a sudden last second, they'll spin out and they'll
bring it from the other side. These simulated pressures are
killing you, though, because what they actually end up doing
is they end up only bringing like four or five.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
It's not like a true pressure. You're not getting five
or six or seven guys. They're usually bringing four or five.
But the way they did it, you manipulate your protection
to where you're still have free runners and guess what,
they have extra droppers, right, compared to normal Normally we're
used to facing Hey, a six man rush, right, you're
playing five behind. You're in kind of like that thirty
two fire zone, or you're trying to man everybody up
(07:00):
like that's what quarterbacks you've just seen it right now,
because with these simulated pressures, really like you're you're kind
of sol because it's really tough to do it. The
easiest way to solve this, though, is you see the
Broncos are doing it a lot, in my opinion, and
I think it's really smart. When you start to get
these okay, hey we're gonna get a simulated pressure. Sean
does one or two things. They're getting it empty. Right,
(07:21):
It's tough to simulated pressure when you're an empty because
the more we spread you out, the harder it is.
The cap defenders and do all this stuff, you really
got to show your hand when somebody's empty or sean
gets super heavy and blocks it up. Right, those are
really the two ways you got to attack it. Hey,
we either add people in this box, then we really
scan our protection because we're in the gun, right, our
guards can scan and our backs. So you either getting
(07:43):
the gun with two tight ends, maybe a back too,
and you really scan everybody and or you empty it out.
Speaker 6 (07:49):
I would also advocate for you know, if you're facing
a team that's gonna.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Bring a lot of simulated pressure. For me, Like, what
I would live in is I'd live in twelve first
and all, I'm third and long. I live in that
one back, two tight end, but I would also be
an empty out of that, right, I'd be in twelve personnel,
but I'd be an empty. So it forces those thick
ankles right that you get those thick ankles outside, you
make them cover in space. But also whenever you want
(08:15):
to really block it up and try to shoot it
down the field, you can do that too.
Speaker 6 (08:17):
So to me, that's kind of the way I would
lean to try to answer this.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Stuff with some stimulated pressure to look. But I do think, man,
they're reaking havoc on protections in the NFL, and they've
been around for a little bit. But I just think
teams are getting a lot better at the disguise that
goes along with it. Now.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Yeah, and we've certainly seen offensive production drop over the
last couple of years, partially because everybody's going to too
high and you know, ben don't break philosophies. And then
part of it's, you know, like we said, the same
pressures and people get better disguising this defense that they're.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Catching back up to offenses.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
I it'd be interesting to see what new rules the
NFL implements to get the scoring sparked again as far
as that kind of stuff goes. Talking about Tim Jenkins said,
T Jenkins elite as we as we look forward to
the Atlanta Falcons, this is a tough offensive matchup, a
little bit different than what Kansas than what's faced over
the last two weeks. I mean, you had Lamar, you know,
in his mobility, and there's just the sheer size and
(09:04):
physicality Derrick Henry. Then you get Pat Mahomes and you
know that cannon for an arm and and everything else.
Now you're you're going with a team that's a bit
more traditional, a drop back passer and Kirk Cousins, they've
got some some talent on the outsides of talent of
the tight end position and a stud running back.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
How do you how do you do your.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Best to defend what it is the Falcons are going
to throw at you.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Yeah, it's such a good point because they have gone
through this gauntlet right of where you've got Lamar, who
you're you're more worried about personnel that you got Mahomes,
who you do worry about a little bit pre snap,
but then you now you got Kurt right and and
what you worry about Kirk is not postna. You worry
that he's gonna beat the hell out of your pre
snap though, right Like, that's you know, if you're sitting there,
(09:45):
you're in your vans, Joseph, what you're worried about is, hey, man,
I can't show my front's too earlier. I can't show
my pressures too early. And it's not just you know this, man,
it's not just the past game, right Like, that's what
most fans see and they get excited about. It's when
Kirk kills them from what would have been a one
yard run into a six yard run, right, and then
now they're in second and four and they're staying ahead
of the chain. Those are the things a lot of
(10:07):
fans are always like, Man, I can't believe Cousins keeps
getting these forty million dollar deals until you, you know,
get him on a whiteboard and you realize that, you know,
white a dry erase marker is an absolute weapon in
the NFL. Right, if you're good at that process of it,
if you're good at that piece of it, you can
you can really put your offense in a great situation.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
But to me, it's like you.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Almost lean towards how much can we disguise without ever
getting caught out of position?
Speaker 5 (10:32):
Right?
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Can we give him a bunch of different looks to
where we make them over communicate the line of scrimmage?
Speaker 6 (10:39):
You know?
Speaker 2 (10:39):
Can we can we kind of force their hand into
you know, really trying to get in and out of
plays versus being able to kind of get up the
line and run it. That would kind of, you know,
be my best best I also think, you know, they're
coming off a tough loss. Where they're sitting there and
it's like, yeah, I don't know. This is a tough
one for me. It's one of those trap games where
I think a lot of people, you know, feel like, Okay,
(11:00):
you know, they see Atlanta's record, but they feel like, oh,
you know, they're the Falcons, and I just don't think
they are anymore. I think they're a pretty dark, good
football team. And this is the one that worries me
because you know, if you steal one against Kansas City,
this game all of a sudden becomes droppable, right you're
and you're not. Now it's like, man, we really gotta
kind of I mean this, we gotta win this thing,
(11:23):
especially the same as playoff on. To me, it's like
these are the kind the kind of teams that freak
you out because I feel like sometimes you can underestimate
going into it and then all of a sudden, you
know they're dashing us for six or seven yards of
pop because they're getting into the right run playing and
from there you know they're ahead of the chains and
they're taking shots and and you know how it is
that's dangerous in the NFL if all of a sudden,
someone in second and short because they can run all
(11:44):
that hard run action and play action, and then they
can recap it on the secondary, no matter how dark
good your secondary is.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah, talk with Tim Jenkinson, and that's the thing. You
knew that this part of the schedule, these three games
is gonna be tough. You need to get one of
the three. You really have to get this game to
keep you above five hundred puts you back at six
and five.
Speaker 4 (11:59):
The next three it's pretty winnable.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
I mean, the Raiders have been kind of a mess,
the Brown has been a bit of a mess. Colts
have been a bit of a mess. And you got
a bye week before that one. So the next three
games look like something to get you back on track
after that Falcons game. So if you take that, if
you if you do get that Falcons game, now you're
six and five, you win the next three. All of
a sudden, you talk about nine and five going into
that that tough last stretch there with the Chargers, Bengals
and Chiefs, and you're sitting pretty at that point.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Well the thing is too I mean, and they're not
just be too optimistic, but you sit there and it's like,
you know, even hypothetically let's say you win three of
the next four, right, like you're saying, instead of you know,
nine to five are sitting there at eight and six
or whatever. It's like, dude, you know, I feel like
the Broncos have proven that they outside of the Ravens game,
when you go on the road and you play in
(12:42):
that early window, right, you sit there and it's like
they've played some pretty darn competitive football.
Speaker 6 (12:48):
So you think, hey, you got the Chiefs at home.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Who knows where they're going to be out in terms
of have they locked up the one seed? Whatever? You know,
you got the Chargers, which felt like a way more
competitive game than the scoreboard reflected when they played. And
he's got Cincinnati, who Cincinnati feels like one of those
teams who's a really good football team, but for some reason,
play just plays everybody to a one possession game, and
you know how his one possession gets. In the NFL,
those can go either way. So I don't know, I'm
(13:12):
I'm I'm really optimistic about them having a chance to
make the playoffs. And you know how it is, once
you get in the show, you know, anything can happen,
especially with how good this Broncos defense is. And you
see Bou progressing, I think there's a lot of exciting
times ahead. And I think it's a you know, it's
a it's a it's a far.
Speaker 6 (13:29):
Cry from where we were at this time last.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Year when we were coming on to talking. So I'm
excited about where they're at, and I think we all
should be excited about, like you're saying, Bo's progression on
not only being able to read stuff and making those
big moment pros. And you know, I think the there's
a lot of optimism and then, you know, I come
on here and say that, and then next week, all
of a sudden, it's like you, they'll get beat by
thirty and then we'll be yelling at each her. You know.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But that's certainly, certainly a possibility in the ups and
downs of a rookie as far as that goes, I mean,
he's not a rookie as Russell Wilson, who has come
audi in relief of Justin Fields in Pittsburgh and raise
the scoring average the offense. They were averaging twenty points
a game with Fields or averaging thirty two a game
with Russ right now. And I don't know, if you
watch a Washington game and he looked like he was
having fun for the first time in a long time.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Yeah, Russ is it's good to see him doing that.
And I what I will say is, you know, I
think Sean and Russ right, you know, who knows how
that all went down. What I will say is, I
do think if you're a veteran quarterback and you're looking
to stabilize your career, I don't know if there's a
better spot on planet Earth than Mike Tomlin. Right, Like,
(14:33):
just the way that they're going to build their football team,
I don't know. I feel like we could. You know,
sometimes I do all the Bears stuff too, and it's
like sometimes you sit there and it's like, I feel
like if you just picked up the Chicago Bears and
gave him to Tomlin and Pittsburgh, they would all of
a sudden be better. Right. It's just like he's one
of those coaches that you.
Speaker 6 (14:53):
You feel that way with. I feel that way with
Sean right now too.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
I feel like we're starting to see an elevated product.
So to me, I think it's great for us. I mean, obviously,
you know, it would have been awesome to see him
work out in Denver, but I just think when you
look at the contract he had and all these other things,
it was time for Denver to move on. But it's
good to see that he's having success. And it's you know,
I mean, it's always exciting to see what Tomlin's doing
with those guys in Pittsburgh. And I mean, shoot, right
(15:16):
now that they're kind of whoever they're rolling out seems
to be having success under center. Maybe I'll get out
there and try to do a little rehab stit to
see if I can, you know, make a run. If
I can make a run anywhere, it's probably gonna be Pittsburgh.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
We're going to make Netflix documentary just to come back.
It's happening.
Speaker 7 (15:31):
I'm here for all of it. Tim, what what's the
biggest thing you want to see on a bow this weekend?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Real quick?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
My biggest thing is is a couple more of those
protection checks, Like we talked about it. If we can
see him manipulate the Mike backer do some stuff where
he slide in the line to get himself blocked up,
I think that's his next step. I think we've seen
him getting them get them in and out of the
right run to pass or pass to run now that
next step to me is really solidifying his protection and
making sure he's blocked up with it.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
Tim Jenkin, t jins Elite, Jenkins Elite, You all know
who he is. We always appreciate having you. Tim. Look
forward checking in with you again here.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Soon brother, you the man. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Here's the man talk etch letter, Tim Jenkins, we come back.
Ryan Michael set Twitter up Laze earlier today. We're gonna
check in with him and have him defend his position
on the inside the number segment cut him next.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
Special thanks to Hall of.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Famer Steve Atwater for joining us in the first hour.
Tim Jenkins for joining us in the last segment. You
missed any of that, you go to Brockcos Country Night
dot Com, Slash podcast or where it gets podcast Apple,
I to the Spotify totally freeing Awsome my heart radio
app whether you can get to take it for Granted
podcast as well, which I constantly normally I harangue Grants
for a new episode. I won't do that tonight. I
(16:44):
know how hard Grant's working back there, but you guys
could do that. I six six nine zeros a text line.
You guys can totally sit there and harass Grant into
dropping new episodes of my favorite podcast, to Take It
for Granted Podcast Friday joined Kawa Sports The Broncos Cheerleaders
three pm to six pm. Former Broncos Todd Davis at
(17:05):
Verizon and Park Meadows So on South Yosemity Street, Loan Tree.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
You fumbled your phone, It's time for new one. Verizon
the best place to get a new one. Friday Enter to.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Win a pair of Broncos Chiefs tickets, the one where
We're going to get revenge, courtesy of Verizon, the official
five G network of the NFL.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
With that, let's go out to the KWAE Commas Growth.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Hotline to bring our guy, Ryan Michael at the Ryan
Michael on Twitter. Ryan, you set Twitter ablaze a little
earlier today. I caught some friendly fire in there. It's fine,
I'm used to it, but I want to get into
this stuff. You posted on Twitter and it looked like
you had some numbers there to back it up that
we're going to get the deep dive in this. But
after the Broncos sixteen to fourteen loss to the Chiefs
(17:44):
in Kansas City, how are you feeling about the team's
offense ten games into the twenty twenty four.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Season not the great ben It could be worse, but
it could certainly be a lot better. As it stands
right now, we ranked twenty second in the lead and scoring,
and that's also accounting for two defensive touchdowns. So it
hasn't been the version of Sean Payton that I think
all of us were expecting prior to him coming to town. Certainly,
(18:13):
there's been growth at the quarterback position, and I'm pleasantly
surprised that we're sitting at five hundred and ten games
into the season. But for me, I'm focusing much more
so on the big picture, really, and that's really what
my chart was about. In terms of what Sean Payton
had done with Drew Brees, that's familiar territory, right one
of the greatest resumes in the NFL has ever seen
(18:34):
as far as an offensive play caller and a head coach.
But it's those other twelve seasons been that he's had
outside of Drew Brees, and I think we have a
big enough sample now where we can at least have
a conversation about it.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Well. That was part of my concern when Sean Payton
was hired. I had several things that. You know, I
brought up like, well, Sean only got you know, he
had Drew Brees, He only got one super Bowl in
that run when he was out. The year that he
was suspended and he was out, there wasn't that much
of a production drop off in the offense, to be
honest with you. As a matter of fact, I think
it got better on a on a per play basis.
(19:08):
Now the following year when he came back, it got
even better than that. So there's you know, there's given
take with that. There's context to both sides that argument.
But you know that was I had some concerns when
you know, when he was hired, how much of his
success in New Orleans should be credited to Drew Brees?
Speaker 4 (19:22):
How much of that belongs to Sean Payton.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
We often hear the the you know, the Belichick Bill Brady,
Bill Belichick, Tom Brady thing. Why not the same for
Sean Payton Drew Brees. Why don't we hear that conversation there?
Speaker 5 (19:34):
I think anytime we have this conversation, we tend to
oversimplify it and we forget that there are a lot
more people involved in just the head coach and the quarterback.
So I'll speak in very general terms, right there are
a lot of players on all of those rosters and
a lot of assistant coaches. I think before Sewn took
over here in Denver, the perception amongst fans might have
been somewhere to the tune of sixty percent Seawan forty
(19:56):
percent Drew, and I would say a year and a
half into his run in Denver, maybe that's switched a
little bit. Maybe people are thinking forty percent Sewan, sixty
percent Drew. There's no question the two of them would
not have reached the hype that they reached without having
each other. So it's a collaborative effort. When you look
at what Drew has done outside of Sean Payton to
(20:17):
the point of twenty twelve, they get to in a second.
His last two years in San Diego, the team ranked
third and scoring in two thousand shorshes and scoring in
two thousand and five. I know you've made the point
many times that what Sean Payton did was he allowed
Drew to throw the ball more. So there was more volume, certainly,
But if you go to the twenty twelve season that
you reference with the head coach combo of Aaron Cromer
(20:39):
and Joe Vitt. Drew Brees through for five thousand, one
hundred and seventy seven yards forty three touchdown passes, and
it wasn't exactly a stack roster. The defense was awful.
They finished thirty first in the league in points surrendered,
which wasn't unlike what happened under Sean Payton's watch. But
what Drew was able to produce without him, He virtually
didn't skip the beat, threw a lot more picks that year.
(21:00):
Part of that myfunction of having a defense at second
last and points surrendered. But the resume that Sean Payton
has outside of Drew Brees isn't nearly as pretty as
Druis is without Sean Payton.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Talking with Ryan Michael the Ryan Michael on Twitter, and
I guess I have to ask, why do you hate
Sean Pam's kidding that you and I both get a
little bit of that on Twitter, which it buzzs me
a little bit because I'm like, why why are we
so soft? We can't do honest criticism? You know that
there are things here to talk about, there are things
It's okay to have conversations about things, whether right or wrong,
it's okay to explore premises, and that's a part of
(21:33):
what we do on this show. How when we look
at Sean Payton, what do you attribute his sort of
steep statistical drop off two.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
Well, there are a lot of factors before we get
into that. Then I think we can lay this to
rest this narrative that you and I don't like Sean Payton.
I think we're in agreement. We would much rather cover
a winner. We would much rather cover a top five
offense if we were given the choice. Right, So it's
not exactly what we've seen over the last two weeks
average twelve points per game. Let me ask you this
(22:03):
Ben on a scale of one to ten relative to
all of the context, which is completely fair. He inherited
a team with a quarterback that was in this choice
last year. We're rebuilding an in salary cap heal this year,
so it's not as though he's walking into the twenty
twenty Tampa Bay Buccaneers offense. We'll give him that on
a scale of one to ten. Given that context, what
(22:23):
grade would you give him?
Speaker 4 (22:25):
I give him a six, Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I mean above average for sure, A six, probably six
and a seven somewhere in there. I think that he's
brought a core competency back to this. I think that
he's done the same thing that John Fox did for
the Broncos.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
When Josh McDaniel's got here.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Josh McDaniel's wrecked the culture and you needed somebody, you
needed Daddy to come in and reset the culture, right,
And so the same thing with kind of Nate Hackett,
and then you get Sean Payton here to co sort
of reset the culture.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
And I think both those guys have did a great job.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I think John Fox did a great job resetting that
and sort of rebuilding the base. Gary Kubiak ultimately took
them to the promised Land. I think that Sean Payton
has sort of that and rebuilt the culture, got this
back to me being a professional football team. So whatever
criticisms that I have, in the end, he has done
a successful job in elevating this from a bad team
to at least at this point, a competitive football team.
(23:12):
So you know, somewhere between sixty and seven, with the
opportunity for that to go much higher.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
I think they're fair. But even if you ask the
most optimistic fans in Broncos country listening right now, is
there anybody who would great him, even on their most
optimistic day, higher than an eight based on what we've
seen through twenty seven games so far. So if an
optimistic score is an eight, I have him as a six.
You have him as a six, and seven we'll call
it six and a half. We're talking about a one
(23:37):
to two point difference in terms of perception. So I
don't think that you and I are far off from
even the optimistic listeners listening right now. But to your question,
in terms of what I attribute the steep statistical drop off,
certainly the personnel, certainly the time it takes to implement
your system. Right this is still a new team for him,
even twenty seven games in. I think we do overlook
a little bit all of the strengths that Drew Brees
(23:58):
brought to the table, the information processing and execution. I've
gone on record saying that I considered Drew Brees to
be a top three all time quarterback. I think most
people would be in agreement. He's a future first ballot
Hall of Famer. Most would probably have them towards the bottom,
maybe even just outside of the top ten. I think
he was a lot better than that, and I think
the locker room culture and buy in that they had
(24:19):
in New Orleans is easy when you're winning football games.
So when you have a true unicorn in Drew Brees,
the buy into what Sean Payton's doing in the overall
culture in the locker room tends to be a little
bit higher. So as far as the salary cap, hell,
what we're going through this year, I think there's a
balance between weighing the context and making excuses. So when
you're looking at a team that finished nineteenth and scoring
(24:41):
last year twenty second so far through ten games this year, Again,
I'm not giving him a horrible grade BND, but I
think that we're being reasonable when we're saying he's underachieved
relative to what expectations would have been a year and
a half ago.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
But how much of that, how much of that is him,
and how much of that is on a young quarterback
that's growing. And I think that's the sort of the
question that divides not you and me personally, but divides
the fan base. As far as that goes, I think
there's an unwillingness to admit that he's maybe fallen short
of the benchmarks that he previously had and they use
the justification that this is a rookie quarterback and scrolling,
and I find that justification to be fair. But it's
(25:14):
also fair to say that he hasn't hit those marks.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
Sure, and certainly bon Nicks is trending upward. And you
look over the last eight games, he has ten touchdowns
to two ticks, a ninety two point nine passer rating
it's difficult to sack, and three touchdowns on the ground,
one through the air. So boone Nicks is not just
trending upward. And of course I did to be honest
and to be fair to Sean Tayton. I think that
the success that we're seeing with bo right now is
(25:37):
a greater credit to Sean Tayton than the success that
Russell Wilson had with a very underrated season last year.
I think was more in spite of Sean system than
because of it. So you can have a quarterback trending upward,
but we have to remember it's not just the quarterback position.
I wish Nick w was tonight because he emphasized that
point too. It's not about just one player. So even
if we acknowledge both, we're having a really good game
(25:59):
against Kansas City. I feel he outplayed Patrick Mahomes in
arguably the toughest stadium to play in the league. Give
Bow all the credits, but it's still a team spot
for coming off back to back games, were ravaging twelve
points a game.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
There's a lot of work to do well right, And
I think that's the other side of the coin here
is that. You know, for me, I've been bickering with
people on Twitter who attribute everything to a penalty flag
in the you know, in the second quarter, and that
didn't even have the biggest WPA probability ad play there.
It was the Kareem Hunt nineteen yard catch and run
with the broken tackles several plays later. Like for me,
(26:34):
when I look at this, I'm like, Okay, we there's
optimism here in the sense that the Broncos belong Clearly
they belonged. They had a game in hand against Super
Bowl champion who was undefeated.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Bo did it against a good defense. This wasn't Bo
beating up on bad Carolina Panthers. This wasn't Bo beating.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Up on a New Orleans team or a Tampa team
that was missing half their defense. This was a starting caliber,
Super Bowl caliber defense. And both came in and outplayed
as Super Bowl champion quarterback, possibly one of the best
in the game, and I think there's certainly optimism to
take from that, and at the same time conversations to
be had about, well, we should have had this in
(27:10):
the bag much more, why are we not scoring points
in the second half and getting into those kinds of conversations.
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Well, I think that we also have to find the
balance between how much credit do we give Sean for
the upward trajectory of the team, because I'm not one
for moral victories. We're a block field goal away from
knocking off an undefeated, two time defending Super Bowl champion,
so that's something to be excited about. It's been forever
since we could say that. At the same time, it's
(27:38):
the defensive side of the ball that's been knocking it
out of the park. Fourth in the league in points surrendered,
second in the league, thirty five sacks collectively as a team,
second in the league, seventy four quarterback hits. Vans Joseph's
defense is exceeding expectations, especially given how far we've come
from last year. And while I won't say that none
of that is a credit to Sean Payton when you
look back to his ears with New Orleans and the
(28:00):
offense was knocking it out of the part. As a
defense was ranked thirty at thirty first, dead last, And
those are some actual rankings. I didn't hear many people
criticizing Sean Payton in the defense was falling short because
he's an offensive minded head coach. So I'll give him
credit for turning around the culture. Sure, but I think
what we're accomplishing on defense is more a credit to
Vance Joseph than it is Sean Payton. If it weren't
(28:20):
for the reality that we have a top four defense,
what is our record? We're five and five right now.
What are we if our defense ranked twenty second in
points per game surrounded?
Speaker 1 (28:29):
Now, what does the offense look like at that point
when you're forced into other positions in terms of trying
to play catch up? Talking Ryan Michael, a former offensive
analyst of Barcelona Dragons, contributed Pro Football Hall of Fame
and the Ryan Michael on Twitter. If I think we
do expect BO to continue to grow, right, I think
we all expect that. But if that growth is slower
or doesn't really happen kind of overnight, if this offense
(28:49):
gets stuck in purgatory, what does this mean for the
team over the next year and a half.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Well, we're with Sean Payton for the next year and
a half for sure. We're tethered to him for better
or for worse, and I am rooting for him to
succeed every week. I'm never rooting against them. I'm the
first person to give him credit when the offense is producing.
We're still waiting for that to happen. And I think
we have a very favorable set of games coming up
in the coming week, So that is something that if
you're looking for optimism. I think Atlanta is beatable. I
(29:17):
think I don't think they're as talented as their win
loss record is. And certainly the Raiders in Cleveland before
the bye week very very beatable. The Colt's beatable. There'll
be a tough stretch in the final three with the Chargers, Bangles,
and Chiefs, So this is a good opportunity for him
to show what he can do and to get all
Afronos Country feeling more optimistic. We're going to take it
year by year. Ben, He's not going anywhere. It's just reality.
(29:40):
We can't do anything. Just commenting and covering the team
we're not involved. I think that the outlook is favorable
for the remainder of the season, or at least certainly
over the next four games. It's up to Sean Payton,
the offense, and the team collectively to deliver.
Speaker 7 (29:55):
Oh, Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael as we look
at as we look forward to the Falcon game, here,
what do we need to see in this particular game?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
You know, I mean, obviously a win, but what do
we need to see out of the offense in terms
of the next growth step.
Speaker 5 (30:10):
I think it's a matter of developing some real production
on the ground. I like what we saw in the
final drive against Kansas City. I can't help but think
to myself, why weren't we running some of that a
little bit earlier? I can't Monday morning quarterback. It's easy
or seven done. I think as we establish more balance
on the ground, if that's even achievable, and I'm talking
outside of what bo Nick does with his legs, it's
(30:31):
going to open up things for the passing game. So
there's some goals ahead of us. A little bit more
than a little bit nervous about what Kirk Cousins can do,
because we're talking about a quarterback who's been one of
the best quarterbacks on the road this year. Not only
has he quietly been underrated, seven touchdowns to one tech
on the road, a one hundred and eight point two
passer rating, averages eight point three yards per attempt on
the road. He is a good quarterback on the road
(30:53):
this year, in addition to just being a lot better
than I think people were expecting coming off of an injury.
So a lot of our work cut out for us.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
But it's still in a game, Ryan, We appreciate it
as always, look forward to deep diving next week and
you know, hopefully we can continue this.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
At Twitter on fire.
Speaker 5 (31:08):
Sounds good bating here.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
For absolutely Ryan Michael at the Ryan Michael on Twitter
contributor at the Pro Football Hall of Fame, or offensive
analysts the Barcelona Dragons.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
You know it's we with today.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
There was some nasty comments from people that and this
stuff sort of bothers me. It's like, and I get
people making stuffup about me all the time. That's that's
nothing new. But just sit there and trash a guest
that we have on the show for expressing an opinion
and backing it up with data and not you know,
having a civil debate, uh and making up stuff about
(31:41):
hating people and all this kind of stuff. We're not
gonna do that. Just you find somewhere else to go, honestly,
find the worst. I don't care, I won't miss you.
Find somewhere else to go. I'm done putting up with
people that can't tell the truth, can't be honest. And
so if you're not, you know, if you're not gonna
engage in debate and good faith, and I've got no
use for you. And I hope that the people who
obsess over that kind of stuff on Twitter, the people
(32:04):
who make obsessive comments about you know, that kind of
stuff on Twitter, I hope you hear it. You know
this is this is absolutely ludicrous that you're gonna trash
a guest that we have on the show without without
even engaging on their points.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
It's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
We come back, We're gonna start previewing this Atlanta Falcons matchup.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
You listen to Broncos Country at night right here on
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.