Living the Questions: answering your queries

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
Welcome to Water People, a podcast about the
aquatic experiences that shapewho we become back on land.
I'm your host, Lauren Hill,joined by my partner Dave
Rastevich.
Here we get to talk a story withsome of the most interesting and
adept water folk on the planet.
We acknowledge the BunjalongNation, the traditional

(00:20):
custodians of the land andwaters where we work and play,
who have cared for this seacountry for tens of thousands of
years.
Respect and gratitude to allFirst Nations people, including
elders, past, present, andemerging.
This season is supported byPatagonia, whose purpose-driven

(00:41):
mission is to use business tosave our home planet.
Good morning, David.

SPEAKER_00 (00:48):
Hello, Lauren.

SPEAKER_02 (00:49):
What have you been up to today?

SPEAKER_00 (00:51):
I've been to the local farmers market on the way
to School Drop and encounteredlots of friends and other locals
there and supported our localgrowers and just had a great
time as you do at local markets,and then dropped our boy off at
the last day of school for theyear.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
That's exciting.
It's nice to be sitting downwith you, getting to have a chat
face to face.
I have been listening to this alittle cheesy, but the five love
languages as an audiobook in thecar.
And it's so sweet hearing theauthor with his very rich
southern accent talk throughsubjects of love and marriage
and you know, all thestereotypes that go with that

(01:28):
accent that he's sort of slowlyputting cracks into.
It's been really sweet.
But um I realized that one of myfavorite expressions of love to
receive is quality time andconversation.
So I guess that's part of why Ilove doing the podcast and love
getting to sit down with you andthrow some questions around.

(01:50):
And today is a different kind ofepisode.
Instead of having a guest, weare turning the mics on one
another and answering listenerquestions.
We've got a bunch of reallyprovocative, juicy, interesting
questions that we've pulled fromyou all, and we're gonna dive
right in.

SPEAKER_00 (02:09):
Great.

SPEAKER_02 (02:10):
The first one is an obvious one.
Tell me, Dave, about a timerexperience after which you were
never the same.
You've answered this before, butmaybe think of a different time.
I can't even remember what yousaid last time.
I can't either.

SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
Yeah, I have no idea what I said the last time that
was asked.
Now I know how people feel whenthey sit across from us and we
throw this one at them.
But usually they've been primeda little.
So I didn't get one of those.
Um and I've thrown right intothe middle of things here.
So let's say in the last year, Iwould say there's been a few of

(02:47):
those moments where I just don'tfeel the same after them.
And I would say that going onthe road with Jack McCoy in his
final days and weeks of hislife, and seeing him somehow
making his body follow his will,even though it was like an

(03:12):
organism that was fading, youknow.
He was so short of breathconstantly.
He was so kind of frail on hisfeet, you know, walking and
things.
You saw how he was shufflingaround, and he was struggling,
like really struggling with hisbody, but he was not struggling
in terms of his spirit.

(03:33):
And seeing how common the dyingprocess is in the West, in a
sad, isolated room in a hospitalor in a nursing home, or just
pushed sort of to the side ofthings in the way we deal with
death, which is kind of notdealing with it in the West,

(03:54):
modern Western times, and thenseeing how he was doing it.
He was on the road showing afilm that we were together in
making and touring years ago, 20years ago, Blue Horizon, and he
was sharing it with like a fewhundred people every night, and
he had a stage show where he'dtalk story and give back sort of

(04:16):
story to his favourite shots inthe film and other moments in
his life, key things.
But it was really that thing ofjust seeing how he was just
fully committed to his art anddoing what he wanted to do till
his last possible moment.
And that the night before hislast day on Earth, he was

(04:38):
showing his film to a whole newgeneration and people who had
seen that film, you know, twodecades ago.
And then the next day he waswith his granddaughter and he
went to look at the ocean andthen checked out.
And that just left me with thisdifferent perspective on the

(04:59):
dying process.
I feel like my dad split reallysuddenly and violently and
dramatically and in an isolatedway, very, very isolated, just
you know, solo guy.
And Jack just did this in adifferent way.
And so before that experiencewith Jack and after, I differ in

(05:19):
in my perspective on death.
And that certainly led to methen diving into the next few
months of sailing and going tosea and learning new skills and
sharing that with you and Minnoand my family at lar like larger
family.
Really, you saw that happen tome, you know, that feeling where

(05:40):
I was like, now is the time.
I dream now, I'm dreaming now.
Yeah, I'm not dreaming for somelater point.

SPEAKER_02 (05:47):
Well, that was the um people keep asking me about
the build, you know, buildingthis boat, and there was a bit
of a switcheroo that happenedwhere do you want to tell that
story?
I mean, that that was theimmediacy of that moment.

SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Yeah, well, that's exactly right.
Thanks for the reminder.
It was right at the same time Iwas ill from, you know, nasty
river water.
I'd had a really unwell fewmonths, the rain had not stopped
falling.
I kind of lost my buildingpartner in Turin who moved to
Tassie with his family, which isgreat for him.
But I was left with a bit of aworkload there that I just

(06:21):
couldn't meet, and I had acommitment to try and finish the
boat by spring, and then all ofa sudden, the exact same design,
the exact same boat becameavailable to purchase, and I had
a bit of a moral dilemma where Ifelt like I was a cop out for
even entertaining the idea ofbuying this finished version of
the build.

SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (06:42):
But when I spoke with Wayne Lynch, who I deeply
respect as a waterman and asailor, surfer, master
craftsman, he said, No, Dave, doit, do it.
Just get in the water.
You just need to get in thewater.
People um and are with theirboats for years and years and
years, and builds can take muchlonger than you think.
And he was just like, go for it.
And so I did.
And that was coupled with thatfeeling from Jack and that that

(07:06):
just that go get it, brother,like live now.
That was so Jack.
He was so gung-ho, and it washard at times to deal with that
gung-ho-ness, and I'm surepeople who are listening who
know Jack could relate to that.
But it was also just get busyliving, man, or get busy dying.
It was just yeah, a beautifulexperience.
Yeah.
What about you?

SPEAKER_02 (07:27):
In the last year, that's the frame we're putting
on this.

SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (07:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (07:30):
Well, you had time to prep.
I didn't, so I need to make someparameters to help myself.

SPEAKER_02 (07:34):
Yeah.
Um, per oh gosh, there's freedomand boundaries sometimes, huh?
It's nice to have parameters.
One of the things that pops upfor me this past year is going
on an all-friend surf trip forthe first time, kind of ever in
my life.
Like just organizing a trip todo nothing but slide our brains

(07:57):
out with friends.
You know, we've traveled a lottogether, traveled a lot for
worky kind of things over theyears, but this was markedly
different.
And it was such a fun buildupbeing like on text threads with
these other women that I love,respect, and admire so much
that, you know, I haverelationships with as adult

(08:17):
women surfers, which, you know,those friendships kind of become
rarer and rarer as we get older.
But, you know, we're sendingeach other waves that we're
dreaming of, and just like itwas the kind of thing that the
idea of this trip got us throughtricky moments or monotonous
moments in our parenting or inour work lives, and we had this
thing that we were all lookingforward to together.

(08:39):
But the spanner in the works forme was that about six weeks out
from departure, and I'd likeworked with our friend and
exercise physio John Comer tolike create a program to get us
really paddle strong before ourtrip because it was in the
middle of our winter, and sosometimes that can mean people
aren't surfing as much or notmaking time to surf.

(09:01):
Anyway, six weeks out, I startedfeeling really unwell and ended
up with a rash all over my bodyin a way that I'd never
experienced before as an adult.
And it turned out I had themosquito-born illness Ross River
fever, which pretty much made mefeel ancient for a couple of
months.
My joints seized up super tightand stiff.

(09:24):
It's like a, it's basicallyviral arthritis.
Um, and I didn't have a lot ofenergy, a lot of fatigue, a lot
of resting.
I wasn't able to surf for thatwhole time.
I wasn't able to train with myfriends, even though they were
all meeting just around thecorner from us here to get
paddle fit and strong.
Um, I just felt really unwelland I felt so bummed at the

(09:46):
timing, you know.
Like obviously, this is all inthe context of being incredibly
privileged, getting to go on asurf trip in the first place.
But, you know, when you havethat sort of buildup expectation
for something, um, it can be alittle disappointing.
So I wasn't sure if I wouldactually go or not until the day
of the flight.
And I was like, well, I'll justgo and I'll try.

(10:07):
And I needed help packing myboards because I was literally
winded from zipping up zippersand carrying a board from the
rack to the board bag.
And the the craziest thing waslike my one of my craziest
symptoms that I remember was Iwould, you know, when you turn
over in bed and you just sort oflike shuffle the comforter or

(10:28):
the duna down your shoulderbecause you're a bit hot.
Well, I remember trying to dothat in autumn as winter started
to arrive.
You know, you get sort of hotand you get cold and you move
the blankets a lot.
And I remember the feeling of mybicep feeling like it was being
torn away from the bone in myarm.
It was the most bizarre.
Like I knew intellectually thatnothing was happening, but it
was so incredibly painful.

(10:50):
And I was so sidelined fromdoing almost all the things that
I love.
I'm so grateful to you forsupporting me through that
because it was really tough.
And so anyway, I decided to goand I had to manage my energy,
but overall, I was deeplyreminded of the power of being
in the ocean to heal us in waysthat maybe don't happen on land.

(11:15):
Because I was able to surf andhave an incredible time.
I took some extra naps, but itit was a it was a dramatic shift
for me to go and be with womenthat I love and see these
beautiful, beautiful waves,tropical, turquoisey, spinning,
um, peeling waves.

(11:37):
That's all very healing.
And that sounds super cheesy,but it was a great reminder of
that.

SPEAKER_00 (11:41):
That links into the chat we had with Arna before you
left, where he said the antidotefor things like chronic illness
like that is enthusiasm andexcitement and joy.
And he was like, Go, you'regonna be healed by it.
And that was, I remember I wassaying same similar things but
without the backgroundexperience of being a doctor.

SPEAKER_01 (12:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:02):
And so he when he said that, I was quietly just
like, yes, say it, Anna, say it.
And then you went, and you weregetting wheeled through the
airport on the way there.
Yeah, and then you surfed yourbrains out and you came home.
How were you different?
So before and after, who wereyou?

SPEAKER_02 (12:18):
Uh, I mean, I came back energized and full of sun,
and my eyes were lit up withtropical spinning waves and a
deep sense of connection to thislittle community of women that I
traveled with.
And you know, it maybe wasn'tlike a long arc of time change,
but in terms of a before andafter, I feel like before I was

(12:41):
gray and lethargic and sad, andI came back the opposite of
those things.

SPEAKER_01 (12:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:48):
Really excited and inspired to keep making time to
be with friends in that reallyplayful capacity.

SPEAKER_00 (12:57):
Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 (12:58):
If you hadn't chosen this career path, this surfing
life, what would you have doneinstead?
Was there a back?

SPEAKER_00 (13:04):
Yeah, Lauren, what would you have done?

SPEAKER_02 (13:06):
Your turn.

SPEAKER_00 (13:07):
What?
This is no, you're so you'rejust gonna be the hand on the
steering wheel the whole time,throwing me under the bus while
you get time to think aboutthese things?

SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
You can look too.

SPEAKER_00 (13:17):
Okay, great.
That's good.
That's the better way to do it.
We'll both share this a littlebit.
Well, in my twenties, early 20s,my plan was to be a cocktail
barman and go around the worldsurfing, listening to great
music at night and slingingdrinks and what kind of
cocktails would you have made?

SPEAKER_02 (13:34):
I'm sure you would be very creative.

SPEAKER_00 (13:36):
Really, really bad ones.
I'm a terrible juggler too, so Iwould not have been like Tom
Cruise style guy from the 80s.
But that was that plan then.
And then in my 30s, when I wasreally tired of doing the same
old thing, but mostly tired ofhaving surfing connected to uh
career and just being in thesame circles for so long.

(13:58):
I was ready for somethingdifferent, and I actually went
and did the teacher trainingcourse with Arna Rubinstein for
the rites of passage work thathe does with young people, and I
really loved that, and I recallthat being somewhere in my 30s,
that being the the new wayforward for me, which I
potentially will revisit whenMinno finishes school, and and I

(14:21):
really crave being around youngkids because I love the company
of kids and youth energy.
So that was there in that littlebrief time, if you remember.
I was entertaining the idea ofdoing beach-centric rites of
passage rather than ones in thebush that other people do.

SPEAKER_02 (14:38):
I remember talking about hosting silent fasting
retreats for for ease of thefacilitator.

SPEAKER_00 (14:45):
Yeah, no, you don't hear any complaints when
everyone's sworn to silence andthey don't have to cop my
terrible food and cooking.
That was one thing.
Then also, yeah, laymaking,turning the farm here into quite
a flower haven and making laysfor the local celebratory spaces
in the area, weddings.
I hope we revisit that one.

(15:06):
Yeah.
How about you?

SPEAKER_02 (15:07):
So again, I'm gonna reference the five love
languages.
But so the guy who wrote it,he's he studied anthropology and
he's a therapist.
He's worked cross-culturally,which I find interesting, and
that's why I wanted to listen tothat book.
And a lot of people recommendit.
Have you read it?

SPEAKER_01 (15:24):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (15:25):
I haven't finished it yet, but it's really
interesting in that youbasically it helps you think
about how the people around youmay prefer to receive love in a
way different from how youprefer to receive love.
And so it helps us communicatebetter and more lovingly with
the people around us.
So I think that's a reallyinteresting premise.
Anyway, he was talking about howhis job as a therapist was

(15:48):
basically being trained to askquestions and listen.
And that reminded me of how Ireally wanted to be a therapist
when I was younger.
Really?
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (15:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:58):
Never heard you say that.

SPEAKER_02 (15:59):
It was and it was all in the questioning and the
listening and the story that Ifound really interesting.
So, in a way, I think this issemi parallel work, but in a
totally um less useful way.

SPEAKER_00 (16:12):
Now I know why you say to me quite often, and how
does that make you feel whenthere's certain food on the
table and stuff, and I'm alwaysgot a sense that there's more to
that question.
That's not true.
Oh, okay.
Okay, my turn.
There's one on the list thatsays, Lauren, this is specific,
but can you talk about thetransition from USA to Australia

(16:33):
and what that's been likephysically, emotionally, and how
you managed it?

SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
Ooh, it was so tough.
Do you remember that?
It was a really tough transitionfor me.
Like wonderful and easy in termsof surfing and friendships.
Obviously, you plugged me intoyour community here.
But it took me a long time tomake a community of my own.
I feel like it always takes likefour or five years in a new
place to really find your peopleand develop trust and

(17:00):
relationships.
But I often boil it down to likemy microbiome being thrown out
of whack, having moved from avery sterile, I said it very
Aussie, a very sterile American,a very like just like bleached
and pesticide sprayed existencethat probably is challenging for

(17:24):
diversity in general and in ourparticular bodies, our
microbiomes.
And then when I came here and wewere living in the little cabin
that you built, everything wasalive.
Like your clothes get moldy andthe food grows mold within
hours.
And, you know, we were eatingstraight out of the soil,

(17:45):
picking fruit.

SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
And the water's off the roof.
The water.
Yeah, exactly.
That was the big one, probably.

SPEAKER_02 (17:50):
There was a lot of introduction of new species into
my body and around me, and myskin reacted to it, and my
immune system definitely reactedto it.
Looking back now, knowing what Iknow now, I think probably I
also contracted some sort ofmozzie-born illness at that
point because I had a lot offatigue.

SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:09):
That was unexplained at that point.
And I kept trying to seedoctors, and they were just
telling me that I had anxietyand stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
I never like you.

SPEAKER_02 (18:16):
I'm not like that.
I'm not really prone to anxiety,but um like that was the
physical side.
And then emotionally, it wastough on us.
It wasn't like it was beautifulbecause we were falling in love
and learning how to be friendsand intimate and live together.
Like I'm I moved in first into atent with a friend, and then we

(18:38):
lived together from the verystart.
That was 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 (18:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (18:42):
And that comes with its own challenges.
Living with someone is requirestime and attention.
And it was tricky to move, youknow, far from family and the
community that I'd known and thedreams that I had for, you know,
maybe going back to universityin the States.
But I was really open to whatwas actually happening.
And that led me to stay here.

(19:02):
And of course, our relationship.
That that was what I valued themost.
Like really giving us the besttry, even though there were lots
of challenging elements tomaking that possible.

SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Yeah, I would say from the outside, you had a
common thought you had then andstill do is finding a great love
and creating a great love, notlooking for the perfect love,
but growing it and you know,making it like Tom Robbins says.
And I remember that being a bigthing in the early days, and
when you would have wobblymoments of yeah, coming to a new

(19:36):
country, different side of theworld, those physical
challenges, you know, and thenstill traveling a lot.
We were moving around, youcouldn't stay in Australia
constantly, so we were doing alot of traveling and and all of
that.
But I remember that being athing that you really latched on
to to keep your decision makingprocess clear.
You're like, Well, what do I isis furthering my education as

(19:59):
important?
Important as a great love isbeing in a familiar space like
Florida, you know, suburbanFlorida, is that as important as
finding a great love and growingit?
And I just remember you comingback to that quite often, and I
would be like, Yeah, yeah, thinkof that one.
Let's talk about that.
So that was Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
You brought up Tom Robbins, and that makes me think
of another question that alistener suggested, and that's
about your favorite three booksthat have helped shape who you
are today.
You brought up Tom Robbins.
Um, he's an incredible Americanwriter of fiction.
His book, Even Cowgirls Get theBlues, definitely and others
definitely had a huge impact onme.

(20:41):
What what are three that come tomind for you that, and this is
important, they're not yourfavorite books.
They're three books that helpedshape who you are today.

SPEAKER_00 (20:50):
Okay, so we're not gonna do the guess the other
person's three.

SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
Oh, let's do it.
Okay, let's do that.

SPEAKER_00 (20:55):
Okay, so well, you gave me a hint there.
So my the three that I feel mayhave shaped your life are
certainly women who run withwolves.
Ding ding-ding.
That should have like a happyyay sound with that one, because
I know that's true.
Yeah.
The other one that I know forsure would be an Oprah Winfrey,
what I know for sure.

(21:17):
Perhaps.
And then the third is aquestionable one for me,
actually.
And I think maybe it would be aTom Robbins one of his, but I
wouldn't have been able to saywhich one because he's written
so many.
I can't remember which onereally stuck with you the most.
I know the one that starts aboutthe unbelievable vibrance of Bee

(21:38):
Troot.

SPEAKER_02 (21:38):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (21:39):
Is something that I feel like has stuck in your
mind.

SPEAKER_02 (21:42):
Yeah, for me, for me, definitely he definitely he
is on the list.
I'm not sure exactly which book,but just go with Tom Robbins in
general.
The way he weaves both fictionalstory and conversing about
everything politics, religion,love, life, food.
He weaves it all in in the mostinteresting way.
His play of language just likehas always inspired me.

SPEAKER_00 (22:05):
So tell us the three that you have.

SPEAKER_02 (22:06):
So I'm gonna say that one.
I'm gonna say even cowgirls getthe blues.
And then I'm gonna go way backand I'm actually gonna say the
Bible.

SPEAKER_00 (22:13):
Wow.

SPEAKER_02 (22:15):
Not because it is has been my preferred reading,
but because it was my childhood.
I was drawn to the Christianchurch in my teens, and I loved
it for its sense of community.
It definitely offered somethingthat I wasn't getting anywhere
else in my life.
But it was where I discoveredquestion asking to be

(22:36):
problematic in some settings.
And so I started asking too manyquestions of my Sunday school
teachers and they didn'tappreciate it.
And I was questioning thingslike, well, Eve was made from
Adam's rib.
That's not like biologicallypossible.
What do we, what is that sayingabout women and gender and

(22:56):
anyway.
So it was too much.

SPEAKER_00 (22:57):
Did you then ask?
And how does that make you feel?
The little therapist in youcoming out at a young age?

SPEAKER_02 (23:03):
Probably.
Actually, where I think whereall of that question asking
comes from is asking so manyquestions of my mom and dad, who
are both like pretty notoriouslyvaulted people who were none,
neither of them have been veryforthcoming with stories about
our family.
And I was always really curiousabout that.

(23:23):
Maybe that comes back to my lovelanguage being like quality eye
contact conversation.
But by not getting that, maybeI've set out into my adult life
just hounding people withquestions.
Okay, third one, a major turningpoint for me was reading Brian
Weiss's Only Love is Real inhigh school.

(23:46):
I had this incredible teacher,Mr.
Fecto, and he taught sociology,psychology, and he introduced us
to these very esotericleft-of-field experiments from
people in psychological studies.
And one of these was Dr.
Brian Weiss and his book, OnlyLove is Real.
And I guess maybe one of theseeds of how you were talking

(24:09):
about earlier about me wanting agreat love really comes back to
that book, Only Love is Real,and the mysticism and the magic
of this world.
And how we, you know, I guessI'm probably most naturally a
more logical person, but bookslike that helped create an
awareness of like there of therebeing forces that are so much

(24:33):
bigger than our minds cancomprehend and love being one of
those forces, whether you thinkabout it in terms of like a
mystical, fated sort ofexperience or something else.
What about you?
Three books.

SPEAKER_00 (24:47):
Yes, Lauren.
What about me?
The three books.

SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
Oh, okay, yes.
Uh so I'm gonna go with a BenOakry book.
He wrote a book calledAstonishing the Gods.
Bing, bing, bing.
Yes, that's correct.
Albi Falzon planted in yourlife, if I'm not mistaken, and
you come back to it time andagain.
I think it's your most giftedbook.

SPEAKER_01 (25:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (25:05):
And I feel like Women Who Run with the Wolves
that you guessed is probably mymost gifted book.
Okay, number two.
I'm gonna say Drunvalo's Book ofthe Flower of Life.
It's one of the books thatyou've always had around.
It's come with us no matterwhere we've lived, and it's
still around.

SPEAKER_00 (25:23):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (25:24):
Yeah?
Yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (25:25):
That was the third one.

SPEAKER_02 (25:26):
That was easy.
Um third one.
Maybe a lunag book.
It's another one that I see youpick up all the time.
That's true.
Cartoons that are deceptivelysimple with deeper reflective
meaning from the greatAustralian cartoonists.

SPEAKER_00 (25:43):
Right on, yeah.
Musings from the inner duck.

SPEAKER_02 (25:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:47):
Check him out.
Yeah, so the the three I wouldchoose definitely Astonishing
the Gods by Ben Oakry.
And uh it is so masterfullywritten.
Oh my lord, just stops me in mytracks.
One sentence, just I can rereadover and over.
It's just stunning, absolutelystunning.

(26:08):
Second one would be LeonardOrr's Breaking the Death Habit.
Oh, yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_02 (26:13):
That one has always been on the shelf.

SPEAKER_00 (26:15):
I rebought that one recently, and I was going to
gift it to someone, but then Icouldn't let it go, so we've
still got it on the shelf.
And that one for when I readthat I was around 20 years old,
and that was all about hisquest.
He was the guy who startedrebirthing as a healing um
modality, which was basicallybeing in a bath and doing a
certain breathing pattern, andhe found that it would take

(26:37):
people back to their births, andif their birth had been
traumatic, the person couldessentially review that birth
and release the tension and thetrouble in their body from that
birth.
So he's a pretty cosmic guy, buthe went on an even more cosmic
search to find living immortals,people who had lived beyond 200

(26:58):
years of age in the one physicalbody.
And that book is unbelievable.
And that's actually what got mestarted in my 20s with doing
personal experiments.
So fasting every Tuesday, beingsilent every Tuesday, having
days of rest, justexperimenting, also being aware
of the benefits of being arounda fire, because he states that

(27:21):
every immortal had the samecertain things going on, no
matter where they were fromaround the world, and that was
every day they bathed in fireand it cleaned their energy
systems in their bodies.
Every day bathing in water.
So we've got that one prettysorted.
And then everyday music playingand being in a creative act, so

(27:42):
art and music basically being anadoration of life, the universe
creation.
And then there were a few otherthings, but that one's a
definite one.
And then the third one's, Iguess, a bit of a meandering
one, perhaps.
Yeah, those flower of lifebooks.

SPEAKER_02 (27:58):
I mean you have it tattooed on your foot.

SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
The pattern, yeah.
Something like that.

SPEAKER_02 (28:03):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
What's next?

SPEAKER_02 (28:04):
This person writes in, I would love to hear more
about what it took to be livingthe way you all do.
Home, farm, surf life, gardenlife.

SPEAKER_00 (28:12):
What do you think of when you hear that question?

SPEAKER_02 (28:14):
I think of over the long arc of time.
I feel like I've been in anespecially busy season the last
few months.
But over the course of ourdecade and a half together, I'd
say we very much prioritizespaciousness and time, owning
our time.
And that has meant saying no tothings and definitely saying no

(28:38):
to money to things at times.
But retaining the ability torespond to the conditions of the
living world, the wind, thetide, the swell, that's
definitely been a constant, andhasn't always been true, but
it's definitely been a guidingpart of life to keep surfing as
much as possible has definitelybeen one of those pillars.

(29:01):
And then with the garden, I feellike the garden was just an like
it became another outlet forconnecting with the elements,
different elements at differenttimes.

SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
I think when I look at that question, it says home,
farm, surf life, garden life,they all feel like things that
neatly sort of slide in witheach other, kind of like a piece
of music, you know, like youdon't do all the strikes on a
drum or a guitar or a toot of ahorn and a lyric all in the same

(29:33):
beat.
They come one after the other.
And you know, if you haven'theard the drums for a moment,
because there's some beautifulstrings playing, then when the
drums come back in, you're like,ooh, that feels good or sounds
good.
And so for me, it really feelslike that.
The wind's been on shore, it'sfull of blue bottles in the

(29:54):
water.
You know, it's a little bit of astretch to just be on autopilot
and be like, I've got to serveevery day.
So we let it go, and then it'slike, wow, look at this though.
With all this sunshine and thisnorth wind, everything's growing
like crazy.
And then you we get in thegarden or we get busy like
yesterday.
You know, I went to the ocean toget to specifics here.

(30:15):
I'll give you an example.
I went to the ocean afterdropping me out at school.
I was hoping to go surfing, itwas quite wobbly.
A big group of sharks had justcome through the lineup.
There was not one single personsurfing, and I thought, today's
probably not the date.
And I came home, lit up, becauseI had a huge roll of mulch
that's been sitting on the farmfor ages.
And I threw it in the back ofthe Ute, and I drove around the

(30:37):
land and I mulched around allthe plants and tended the tarot
along the edge of the creek, andthen continued on with lots of
farm jobs all day.
It just got in a rhythm with itand was really enjoying it
because it had been a while.

SPEAKER_01 (30:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (30:52):
Um, and uh, and that was that, you know.
And so I feel like that's quitethe dance here when it comes to
those specifics, how theyhappen.
One goes, you know, one ishappening now, and then the
other is not, and they just comeand go, like, today I went for a
swim in the ocean.
It felt so nice to just go andflop around in the shore break
for a moment after being soterrestrial and busy, busy

(31:13):
working guy on the landyesterday.
So I like the way we do that,and having the option to do
that.
Yeah.
Knowing that, yeah, you can't dothem all at once.
And in fact, it's none of themreally uh none of those efforts
really thrive and are at theirbest, and we try and do them all
at the same time.
You know, like, oh, I've got toget a surfing today, then I
gotta go do this work, and thenI've got to do this.

(31:35):
It's not really our way.

SPEAKER_02 (31:37):
Okay, here's a left left field one.
I would love to hear yourthoughts, the question asker
wrote, on how we can all worktogether to make surfing
communities less divided betweenlong and short boards as well as
beginners and experiencedsurfers, as our favorite surf
spots continue to get busier anda more diverse selection of

(31:58):
watercrafts riding waves.
Ooh, what comes up for you?

SPEAKER_00 (32:02):
Well, what do you think?
Because you surf the placeswhere there's more range with
beginners and all of that kindof stuff when you think of the
bay and the waves you longboard.

SPEAKER_02 (32:12):
Yeah, we talked about this a bit in our episode
with Holly Beck.
She's a surf coach and atherapist.
I think I I'm a real, as I'mgetting older, I feel a real
responsibility to takeresponsibility in the lineup to
um to like make eye contact withpeople, first of all, say good

(32:33):
morning, like make it a lovelyspace to be with people when
it's a crowd.
Like I it's so funny when peopletry to pretend like no one's
there by putting the blinders onand just paddling by people
without acknowledging theirhumanity.
I have a pee for that.
Um, but also when people aredoing the wrong thing, when
they're dropping in, whenthey're paddling around, when

(32:55):
they're snaking, whatever, liketaking the time to call it out
in a friendly, sort of jovialway, I think is the direction
that we have to be going ifwe're gonna be surfing crowded
spots without like going into ittoo far.
That feel that have really takenthat on in the last couple of
years.
Just like if you see something,say something, be kind about it.
If the person is being naughtyand behaving back to you in a an

(33:19):
aggressive way, like make surethere are other people to back
you up.

SPEAKER_00 (33:24):
That's the key thing, I think, too.

SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Especially for women in the lineup.

SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
Yeah.
Oh man, gee whiz.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If yeah.
I I had that sort of moment notlong ago where I was playing at
the end of a wave, right at thevery end of a wave with Minnow,
a couple other parents who werewith their little kids, like
just the very end of a longwave, nowhere near the zone
where people are taking itseriously and stuff, but still
someone came through and did thewrong thing and then had

(33:50):
whatever reason in their head toyell at the person that they
just run over.
And I called the guy out on itand sort of stopped him in his
tracks by calling him out.
But I had someone else with meverifying my point of view with
him about educating this man,especially given that he was

(34:11):
yelling at a lady in the waterwhich just pushes my buttons.
But it was really effective tohave a a few of us educating
this guy so he didn't just thinksomeone else was getting
personal perspective.
It wasn't personal, it was Ithink that thing sticking
together, and if you see someoneplaying up like that and working
as a community to educate them.

SPEAKER_02 (34:30):
Yeah, it just comes back to take like looking out
for each other.

SPEAKER_00 (34:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So yep.
And then when it comes to surfcraft, it's just like no one has
any right to tell anyone what toride.
It's just ridiculousconversations, not even worth
ever having with someone.
But when you look at the waysurfing is now, as it where it
used to be in the 90s, I've saidthis for years because I've been
sharing boards for years withfriends who were struggling on

(34:55):
the pointy nose thruster ofyesteryear, and when I got them
on a stretched fish or somethingwith a bit of foam, they just
had so much more fun.

SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:02):
I realised lineups are actually happier these days
because people are being able tocatch a wave more easily, which
means they'll probably that ifyou go, there's not so much
desperation, and then when theyride them, they're having fun.
So, you know, there's justthere's nothing to gain from
comparison when it comes tosaying longboards suck or
shortboards suck or anything ofthat nature.
Um, it's just a matter ofchoice, and it's really

(35:25):
wonderful when you see someonemake the right choice, which
means they're having fun.

SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
We still do love to demonize a particular craft.
Not we, but like as a culture.

SPEAKER_00 (35:36):
You know, I'm thinking about the boat deserves
it.
What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 (35:39):
I'm thinking about SAPs a few a few years ago that
were really like really um sortof given the side eye from many
of us.
And now foils.
I wanted to ask you about foilsin and around the lineup.
What's your feeling?

SPEAKER_00 (35:54):
Well, quite often those those two have been the
you know, have copped it frompeople just because of the
safety factor.

SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (36:01):
And I remember when the SUP thing came along, that's
what it was.
It's because generally it waspeople who were new to surfing
and new to lineups would bring abig board like that into a
lineup and just be clueless andlet the thing swing around and
take people out.

SPEAKER_02 (36:15):
And remember, we were seeing people getting
punctured lungs and broken ribsand one of our first episodes,
Crystal Jameson talked aboutthat happening too.

SPEAKER_00 (36:24):
Yeah, so that was a thing there, and then the foil
thing was is similar where it'slike, okay, near to people,
probably not the great idea.
And I think that just comes downto that as a safety thing and
figuring out like most things,like with jet skis when they
first came out, we don't knowthe parameters, we don't know
exactly what they're good for,where they belong, and then you
know they've been put in theirplace nowadays, hopefully in

(36:47):
most lineups around the world,probably the Gold Coast
excluded, where we go, oh yeah,jet skis are great for rescue
factors and when the waves areridiculously enormous, but
they're not for use to dostep-offs in a four-foot or
six-foot wave somewhere likeKira or a beach break around
other people.

SPEAKER_02 (37:03):
Yeah.
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SPEAKER_00 (39:49):
Okay, this question is uh what's the one thing?
One you'll have many, I'm sure,for me, but uh what's the one
thing that drives you nuts aboutthe other?
Well Over the years, hopefullyI'm getting better right now,
but I know stuffing has alwaysbeen your thing.
Hundred percent.
It's been like, I want a cleanspace.
And so I'll just grab things andjust stuff them somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 (40:10):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
So basically like underneath theissue is like we have different
ideas of what clean means.
And for Dave, that often meansjust eradicating the space of
clutter, but not necessarilyputting the things back where
they might live permanently.
Maybe they all just go into adrawer hidden away.
But then the bomb site that wasthe room is now in the drawer,

(40:34):
but you still have to go throughthe thing in the drawer.
So yes, you've nailed it.

SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
But then I do the thing in the drawer too over
time.
Remember how you mean who doesthat top drawer that you can do?

SPEAKER_02 (40:43):
You're getting so much better at it.
And I only see it in you becauseI have that same tendency as
well.
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (40:49):
So it's still actually stuffing.

SPEAKER_02 (40:51):
100%.

unknown (40:52):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (40:53):
I thought I'd evolved out of that.

SPEAKER_02 (40:55):
I love that it has a like a clear single word that
communicates so much.
That's how long it's beenaround.
And it's a real problem in thisclimate because if you stuff
things, then they get moldy andthen they get ruined, and then
you just have to throw themaway, which is probably your
strategy.

SPEAKER_00 (41:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (41:12):
Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 (41:13):
So my thing about you is not stuffing.
It's nearly as good as stuffing.
It's two words, but not stuff.
I would love it if you stuffed.

SPEAKER_02 (41:22):
What are we talking about?

SPEAKER_00 (41:24):
Because if you just put it away, then I would look
around and be like, oh, howclean and good is everything
right now.
And then I wouldn't mind if itwas all some drawer hidden in a
corner.

SPEAKER_01 (41:33):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (41:33):
So yeah, stuffing and not stuffing.
Is that enough?
Have we revealed enough?
No.
No.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (41:38):
You didn't even say anything.
You just used a lot of wordsthat say nothing.

SPEAKER_00 (41:42):
Drive you nuts.

SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
How deep do you want to go?

SPEAKER_00 (41:45):
Well, I would say the on the top of the pile,
which is a tiny pile, is mangoseeds and date seeds.

SPEAKER_02 (41:55):
The date seeds.

SPEAKER_00 (41:56):
Okay, so there's two things here
because there's still so muchgood meat to eat around the
seed, but it's not as enjoyableas the cheek.
We all know that.

SPEAKER_02 (42:06):
I enjoy it, but I just get full by the time I get
to the seed.

SPEAKER_00 (42:09):
Oh, your tiny belly.
And so filling that extra bit.
I'm sure it's that.
But anyway, I quite often I findan entire ant colony around that
seed.
And I think, wow, look at thatmound.
And then I shake them all off,and there's a seed underneath
there.
And the other one is the dateseeds.
If anyone knows what a date seedlooks like from a distance, it's

(42:31):
literally a rat nugget.
It's mouse poo.
Convinced, and I'll find themall over the joint.
In the shower.
Next to the soap and thetoothbrushes.
I'll find them on the couch.
On the lovely couch, just on theside, where I'm like, yep,
Lauren read a magazine.
She had a date.
She had a shower.
She had a date in the shower.

(42:53):
I'll find them next to yourcomputer thing.

SPEAKER_02 (42:55):
That's my moment when I'm like, yep, I can have
it all.
Hot shower and a delicious,fresh, meduled date.
Wow.

SPEAKER_00 (43:03):
So I usually scoff and do whatever that sort of
sound is.
And then I laugh because I'mlike, I imagined what you were
doing and how much joy it wasbringing you to do that there,
that you just step up and walkaway and leave a seed.

SPEAKER_02 (43:17):
That's kind.

SPEAKER_00 (43:18):
There we go.

SPEAKER_02 (43:19):
We were kind.
How did you find my address tostart writing letters?

SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
Well, it wasn't too many hundreds of years ago.
So there was a thing calledinternet and emails.
Yeah, yeah.
So if that's what they mean byletters.
So that was the thing of stillmy favourite surfing image of a
lady ever.
And it's you hanging 10 in yourPaisley shirt with the what
looks like a necktie hangingdown your hair in a disheveled

(43:47):
beehive.

SPEAKER_02 (43:47):
And um that style of shirt I now know is called a
pussy bow.

SPEAKER_00 (43:51):
Oh wow.
Okay.
So yeah, wearing your pussy bowand and hanging ten.
And it was just the mostgobsmacking image and still is.
You recently asked me to get aniPhone for the big sailing
adventure, and it is the pictureon the front of the iPhone when
I turn it on.

SPEAKER_02 (44:12):
Okay.
I feel like a demon in thatposturing.
I didn't ask you to get aniPhone, I just asked you to get
a phone that is able tocommunicate both with text and
calls.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (44:24):
I get it.
No, it's a good safety net forwhen you're at sea.
But yeah, that image is there.
So every time I I um use thetelefrican, there's your
beautiful face.
So I got that picture burnt intomy brain when I saw it, and then
reached out to my friend who wascommunicating with you for being
able to run that picture in hisbook, and and I got your email

(44:44):
and we wrote and we wrote and wewrote.

SPEAKER_02 (44:47):
Our internet romance.
Do you remember the moment whenyou each thought this is the
person I want to do life with?
Oh, that's a sweet question.

SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:00):
Yeah.
I remember being 20 in yourliving room with your partner at
the time.
And I remember just looking atthe way you'd set up life and
not having a TV in the house andspending lots of time in the
ocean.
And the people that were aroundyou, really creative, fun,

(45:22):
quirky folks.
Everyone was a bit older thanme.
So there was that layer ofaspirational age thing built
into it too.
But yeah, I remember going, wow,this is this is a life I want to
live.
And this person, like, I wanna Iwant to know what life is like
with this person, but thatwasn't possible at the time.

SPEAKER_00 (45:40):
Yeah, same thing.
It's so fantastic.
We have the same moment and weweren't ready for each other.
I was 25 or something, you wouldhave been 20.
Yeah.
So 20 or 24, 25.

SPEAKER_01 (45:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:52):
Um, and I remember similarly just being like, oh my
word, there is a woman like thisthat exists.
I hadn't entertained the ideathat there would be someone like
you who had convictions andmorals that you were willing to
follow through with at a youngage, like you know, 20.

(46:16):
I was so impressed that you werea vegan, that you had hairy
legs, that you had unbelievablechops in the water.
Your surfing skill was a hugething for me, just to be able to
s to to look into the nature ofyou.
Um and uh just to yeah, just tosee that you existed was just

(46:40):
shocking to me that you weresomeone I could see living a
life with, but I couldn't atthat time.
I was in a committedrelationship, and I just
remember watching you on waves,listening to the tone in your
voice, honey-like tone that Ijust could listen to all day.
And then the things you weresaying, your third-wave

(47:03):
eco-feminist perspective, wow,what a refreshing one that was.
And then your willingness tostick to that choice of not
eating anything with a face or amother.
And I remember having similartendencies at the time, but I
wasn't fully into that level ofbeing vegan.
I I wasn't eating fish andthings like that.

(47:23):
But you know, we aren't vegansnow.
No, but it's a thing ofconsideration.
I feel like you were soconsidered, you still are so
considered.
And it was just, yeah, it wasalmost a little bit torturous to
just be like, wow, you exist,but I can't be with you.
I'm with this other person.

(47:44):
And that's why then, you know, afew years later, when I happened
to be single and available, Isaw that photo of you, and why
it struck me.
And I was just compelled towrite to you immediately on the
thinnest one in a million,you're saying there's a chance,
possibility that you could maybealso be single, and maybe we

(48:08):
could hang out.
And it was incredible that whenI reached out, you were also
single.
And in that moment we could talkand we could perhaps get
together.
Yeah, super special.

SPEAKER_02 (48:22):
It really is.
And when I reflect on doing lifetogether and being at our age
when a lot of people aresplitting up, a lot of our
friends are deciding theirrelationships aren't going to
continue on.
I just think about you and usand how I knew from so early on

(48:43):
that there is no one bettermatched for me than you.
And any issues that come up, andthere are plenty of issues,
those issues would come up inany relationship because they're
because I'm contributing themprobably maybe more so than the
other person, and thateverything is worth working
through because of I mean,largely your ability to

(49:07):
communicate and to listen and tohave a sense of humor and heavy
moments.
And yeah.
Early on I was I was struck byyour willingness to sit and and
really talk things through in away that I hadn't really
experienced from people in myfamily.
And so I knew we could kind ofwork through anything if we

(49:27):
could keep doing that.
And I wanted to, you know, Iwanted to have that level of
openness and communication inthat love space.
Yeah.
Okay, another question.
What's your number oneingredient for building and
staying in a lovingrelationship?
Partnership, they wrote stayingin a loving partnership.

SPEAKER_00 (49:46):
Uh one of the things for me is love notes.
I've really latched onto that asa thing because we did that so
much when we were firsttogether.
And for me, it's something Ijust do whenever I think the
thought now.
I'm like, and I'm near a pen andpaper, so if I'm around the
house, then I'll start writing.

(50:07):
Or when I'm about to leave thefarm and I know you're gonna
come home, I think, oh, wouldn'tit be cool for Lauren to come
home?
And out of a day of doing this,thinking about getting stuff
done, all of a sudden, here is anote that stops that in its
tracks, and you hear somethingfrom me that's just about

(50:28):
gratitude for you.
Something that I see in you thatI really am feeling at that
time.
And uh I I've latched onto thatbecause you know, like you've
said, things change asrelationships grow and go
further down the line and stuff,and maybe yeah, you don't say
the sort of every night I loveyou before you go to sleep

(50:49):
thing.
Do some of the things that youused to do, like every day, you
know, they change.

SPEAKER_02 (50:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (50:55):
And you've got a child that wants you, and you're
tired, but you've got to read oryou've got to prep things for
the next day, and life justchanges in that time.
But there's just something amongall of that that I have latched
onto when I think of writinglove notes and stashing them in
places where you'll find them ina in a surprising way, even if
it's not in a inner space, it'sin a time that'll surprise you.

(51:18):
For me, that's one specific.
You know, we could talk bigpicture here and think about
ideas, but I'm saying a specificthat's what I that's what I do.
And I know that it meanssomething to you when you see
them and you go, Oh, thank you.
Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (51:33):
Yeah, there are a lot of things.
I think probably one of the mostmeaningful things to me has been
laughing together, especiallyhaving a young child or being in
really heavy situations whereone of us is bleeding or broken
in some way.
Um, being able to really seeeach other in a clear-eyed way

(51:55):
and still be able to laughamongst the chaos.
That's like I really get hit bythose heartfelt moments when
it's the light on top of theheavy.
There's something effervescentabout that that makes always
makes me feel more connected toyou.
How did you both deal with anewborn baby while being
addicted to waves?

(52:16):
We took turns.
Yes.
We took turns.
Yeah.
That was it.
We supported each other and andwe've we find the joy and each
other's joy.
I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 (52:27):
Totally.
Yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 (52:29):
There's energy in that for both of us.
Yeah.
Um, was there ever a possibilityof you two settling in the US?
Oh, I'll throw that one to you.

SPEAKER_00 (52:37):
Pretty much no.

SPEAKER_02 (52:39):
Yeah.
We did talk about it for alittle bit when I was thinking
about going to get my master'sin Hawaii.

SPEAKER_00 (52:43):
Yeah, that's true.
Hawaii and maybe still Hawaiiperiod period for periods.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (52:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (52:49):
Yeah.
It's pretty of a culture shockfor us these days when we go
back to Florida or Yeah.
And the experience to bespecific, like the experience of
having a child, and that childnow is eight years old, he's
broken two arms and one leg,he's been hit by scorpions, he's
like a little adventure boy, andhe's not crazy, but he's he's

(53:10):
not risk averse.

SPEAKER_01 (53:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (53:12):
And we end up at the you know, the emergency
department every year, and so doI.

SPEAKER_02 (53:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (53:18):
And so the experience here in Australia,
where certainly it is not aperfect system, but the
experience that we've had, whichis you go in, you get great care
immediately, yeah, and you leavehugging the people and saying
thank you, you don't sign orfork out money, comparing that
to our experiences in America,where we've gone to just get his

(53:40):
temperature checked and beendenied because we weren't with
the right insurance companies orwhatever, and the frickin'
people at the emergency thingwouldn't even take his
temperature.
Yeah.
Stuff like that, I think, is ahuge one for us now as young
parents.
We're like, well, actually, ourpreference is for health and
well-being and safety, and wejust don't feel it there.

(54:00):
I I certainly don't.

SPEAKER_02 (54:02):
Yeah, and I never thought I would say that I don't
either.
I did not expect that.
I didn't expect to feel thatway, but I really do now.

SPEAKER_01 (54:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:10):
Okay, here's a bit of a complex one.
In what ways has societal orfamily pressure of what a
relationship should look liketested your confidence in how
you choose to be together?
If it did or does affect you,how do you both stand firm
together that you're comfortableshedding the expectations?

(54:30):
And the question writer wrote,This is an adapted version of a
question by Mel Robbins to betransparent.
Does anything spring forth foryou from that question?

SPEAKER_00 (54:40):
Not really, actually.
I think it's our relationship issuch a personal choice, a
personal experience with so manyunique to us aspects that I
don't find myself looking tomany other people for uh insight
into how you and I can betogether.

SPEAKER_02 (55:02):
I know I had some pretty like full respect to my
mom and dad and their subsequentpartners afterward afterward,
but I feel like I didn't havesuper aspirational relationship
modeling around me that I feltlike were successful.
Um, and so I had a real clearvision of wanting to create
something specifically aroundcloseness and communication and

(55:26):
a lot of time spent together.
And I know that's not possiblefor all families.
It wasn't possible in my familybecause of the pressures of the
cost of life and then singleparents.
Those are pressures that Ihaven't had to face.

SPEAKER_00 (55:40):
Yeah, I feel like for us, we just know when things
are in a right sort of way andfeeling healthy and when they're
not.

SPEAKER_02 (55:48):
Can we can we talk about this?
Is this different than that?
But I was chatting with ourfriend Zara in the water a
couple of days ago, and we weretalking about what happens when
we're out of orbit.
Like how do we how do we eachrespond?
And I was like, oh, well, wejust both shut down.
We don't like we ignore eachother, and that's probably not
like the healthiest way torespond.
But what does happen because ofthat is we don't say things we

(56:12):
don't mean.
And I feel like that is that isa um that is an unspoken value
of our relationship.
We don't yell, yeah, we don'tscream, and I'm not saying that
we're perfect in any way.
This is just our adaptivestrategy, one of many.
And we never say, really, Ican't remember ever saying
something I didn't mean, or yousaying something that you didn't

(56:34):
mean out of the fire ofimmediacy of the moment.

SPEAKER_01 (56:39):
And that's where that strategy has served us
well.

SPEAKER_02 (56:41):
Yep, yeah, and I saw I definitely saw a lot of
screaming and yelling andviolence in my home.
And I and I have consciouslywanted to create something more
peaceful and communicative.

SPEAKER_00 (56:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (56:54):
Sometimes that means ignoring each other.

SPEAKER_00 (56:57):
But in that ignoringness, it's like the
knowing that okay, this issurface chop, we always go back
to that.
This is surface chop.
It'll it was deeper underneaththat surface level, which is
always changing and swirling, isa deeper feeling, and that's
that one of us just being soperfectly matched for each
other.
That it's like, yeah, well,there'll be wobbly times on top.

(57:19):
There always is.

SPEAKER_01 (57:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:20):
They're just the nature of the world and life,
but underneath is thatsolidarity.

SPEAKER_02 (57:25):
And the thing that always for me, the thing that
heals that distance when it doeshappen is like the sitting down
or open-hearted eye contactconversation.
I don't know if that's the samefor you.

SPEAKER_00 (57:36):
Yeah.
I like it when we break a cyclelike that, you know, with one of
us saying how much of an idiotwe've been.
Yeah.
And you can have a laugh atyourself.
Then you're like, okay, I'mreally.
Laughter's always part of it.

SPEAKER_02 (57:48):
Laughter's always part of it.
The breaking the breaking ofthat.

SPEAKER_00 (57:51):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (57:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (57:52):
Just then there's like a willingness to talk
because you're like, you'reacknowledging the fact that
you've been a knucklehead andyou're not so weighed down by
all the considering.
Because I feel like in thosesort of full out-of-orbit, dark
and moody times, there's just alot of internal dialogue going
on.
Like, how do I feel about that?
Did I actually do the wrongthing there?

(58:14):
Didn't I?
Do I really feel super duperstrong about that one thought?
There's a lot of that going on,which is nice to hear you say
that it's a good part of thatsort of quietness is that there
isn't that fiery reaction whereyou just say silly things.
Yeah, good question.

SPEAKER_02 (58:32):
What are your boundaries or thoughts around
faithfulness, loyalty, andmonogamy?
We've never really spoken aboutthis before, but I'm interested
to get your opinion about it.

SPEAKER_00 (58:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (58:42):
Well something real left of field could come out
right now.
I keep saying left and field.
Something real juicy could comeout right now.
Really?
Why?

SPEAKER_00 (58:49):
Why do you say that when you look at me?
Well, I you know, you know mystory of my life before we were
together.

SPEAKER_02 (58:58):
I just want to say that I love that.

SPEAKER_00 (59:00):
Oh yeah, your faces to hear the tone go up then and
and your voice and there's a bigsmile.

SPEAKER_02 (59:06):
I feel like so the the work of being an adult human
is becoming more of yourself.
And for as much as maybe we liketo think of ourselves as
subversive or pushing againstconvention in some ways, we're
so conservative in the ways ofour relationship.
Would you agree?

SPEAKER_00 (59:27):
Sure.
Can you give me an example?

SPEAKER_02 (59:29):
Well, just in terms of like being loyal, faithful,
and monogamous.

SPEAKER_00 (59:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (59:34):
Like we aren't married, but we just want to
honor each other.
I feel weird speaking for you,but I want to honor us, and that
means yeah, staying loyal tothat long goal.

SPEAKER_00 (59:50):
Yeah.
And because I'm many years olderthan you, Lauren, I speak or
experience in a way.
Well, you know, my relationship.
Life before we were together, Ihad that experience of open
relationship experiment, andyeah, like more of a fluid idea
of what uh intimate relationshipis.

(01:00:11):
And and it was a short-livedidea that I was, you know, asked
to live through.
And for me, that was so usefulto have that experience to
realize how much energy it takesfor us to maintain a healthy,
deeply intimate relationship.
Just one.

(01:00:31):
Just one.

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:32):
You know, and so that experience for me of having
perhaps more than one showedthat no, that's that's really
complex.
There's a lot if someone can dothat and everyone is feeling
respected, seen, heard, honored,full of joy, then good on you if

(01:00:53):
you can achieve that.
That's fantastic.
That's like you've got someserious capacity.
In my experience, I I could notdo that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:02):
And so I love, I love the feeling of being clear
and devoted to thisrelationship.
That's enough.
That fills me with a type offaith in it that even through
wobbly times or death and birth,all these things that can be
make or break situations, wejust will hold each other and

(01:01:27):
laugh and cry and laugh again.
And that gives me faith in thevalue of being loyal.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:36):
Yeah, it really is.
I've I'm so grateful for ourrelationship.
I feel like this is getting outof control how much we're
talking about it right now.
Um just the foundation thatcomes from having stability at
home, whatever that looks likefor you, but having that
stability and support hasallowed me to to work in

(01:01:57):
different capacities and have asurfing life and have rich
friendships because of thestability at home.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:04):
Yeah.
I feel like one of the questionsthere too, we may have just
scrolled past it, but was onearound, you know, supporting
each other's work and efforts.
Yeah.
And I I feel like that in thisrelationship with you that
there's this, there's this needfor what it is you do.
There's this need that is metwhen you're writing and working

(01:02:27):
on the things that truly lightyou up.
That I love to see, and I loveit when you come to me with an
idea that you're trying tofigure out, and we just talk
about it and brainstorm.
And then I see you, you know, inthe muck with an idea, like, oh,
where is this going?
What is this even for?
And and then you come through itand you're clear, and then you

(01:02:48):
share it with people throughyour written word or through a
project uh or through just yourinteractions with people, and I
see the response to that as onethat's really wonderful.
That I I just it's a funny word,but I feel really proud of you
when that happens and you'redoing that.
And so, yeah, there's just alevel of backing you up that I

(01:03:11):
really enjoy.
And that happens with this whenwe sit down and do these
podcasts, and um, you know,you're the one doing the work
with the tech side of this, andum also yeah, organizing a lot
of the people we we speak with,and you just do that really
well, and yeah, I feel likethat's sort of supporting

(01:03:33):
feeling, like we're not incompetition.
Thank you, you know, because youlook at there's potentially
other ways that could go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:39):
Totally.

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:40):
Where it's like, wow, look at you, you got like
you got so many great thingshappening, you've got all these
projects going on, and maybesome people could be envious of
their partner in that instance,but it's just never even come
into the equation for us.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:51):
It's that's what I knew at the start I wanted to
see what was possible with anegalitarian partnership, really
sharing, especially inparenthood.
Like, what does that look likeand feel like if we both take
equal responsibility?
It doesn't mean we do the samejobs, it just means we really
show up for each other.
And sometimes that meansleading, and sometimes that
means following and acceptingthe yin-yang-ness of that has

(01:04:16):
been a great and continuallearning.
But it can feel as good to leadas it does to follow.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:23):
This is a question from another listener.
How do you think about extendingthe lifestyle and teaching of
surfing to our family, to Minno?
Like what's in what's importantin that generational passing on?

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:38):
And passing forward and backwards and every other
direction.
Because look at my mum, she's inher 70s now and is a surf rat, a
newly formed surf rat.
And the joy that brings.
Yeah.
And the inspiration that brings.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:53):
All of it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:53):
And then with Minnow, you know, you go the
other way and it's just waterplay.
And that's a huge thing for us.
It's just water play.
It's not surfboard-centric, youknow.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:03):
Yeah, it's whatever's fun.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:04):
Yeah, it's whatever's fun.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:05):
No pressure.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:07):
And not a lot not a lot of correcting, not a lot of
feedback.
I see that in both of us.
Like and I I stop myself oftenlike, oh, maybe paddle for the
or maybe sit here.
You know, those are the wordsthat are going on in my head.
And actually, what what'simportant is not has nothing to
do with catching waves or notcatching waves or what you're
writing.
It's about developing arelationship with the water,

(01:05:29):
being able to learn the languageand also being able to trust
yourself.
I've been thinking about howgreat surfing is at teaching us
to trust our instincts, ourintuition, and our um
relationship with, you know,forces so much larger than
ourselves.
When to catch a wave, when notto catch a wave, um, learning
about when to go under so youdon't get smacked in the face by

(01:05:52):
the lip, all of those things.
Like you have you develop aninternal dialogue that you learn
to to trust.
And I think that translates toother parts of life.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:00):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's great.
It's such a um dance with thatone where it's about assessing
the true danger of a situationtoo, with like your your son or
your mum, like either directionin the age groups, but knowing
that it if they endure a set onthe head, then they probably

(01:06:21):
picked up a couple lessons in itabout how it feels to be in an
impact zone and what to do, whento just let go of your board,
when to hang on to it, when toturn and ride it back to short,
those sort of things.
But they will not learn anythingif we grab them and pull them to
the channel.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:38):
And they'll be safe, but he wouldn't have learnt a
thing in that.
So, within that though, is theassessment of like, oh, that's a
pretty dangerous section.
Oh, there's multiple peoplewho'll probably ditch their
boards.
I'm grabbing him, and we're outof it.
It's a timing.
Or mum, yeah, get the hell outof there, Nanavon.
Yeah.
And you get, you know, you avoidthat risk.
And it's like always changing.

(01:06:59):
But that is a really great oneto navigate.
I love that because it's like,oh, you get the protective
parental urge kicking in, butthen you go, well, hang on a
second.
Is there actually any immediatedanger?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:11):
There's a challenge, and if I take him out of this
situation, he will not get theopportunity to rise to that
challenge or just learn, yeah,or be schooled and still learn.
So I love that.
I think that's so great, andit's a lot of playfulness in
that.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:26):
Yeah.
Allowing kids to develop anawareness of their own
capability.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:30):
And then when things happen, the big one for us, and
I I find that we've been reallylucky with Minno having a
natural tendency not to add astory to things, is that not
adding a scenario to somethingbefore it happens.
So before we go in the water andnot saying, okay, now you've got
to be really careful becausethere's this thing over here,

(01:07:52):
and then if that happens,they'll hit you there, and then
you'll get washed up here.
Not building up a big scenario,and then the other side of an
event is not building up a bigstory when a stack or something
has happened, and then thatchild or that person doesn't
want to go back to the oceanbecause they're freaked out
about what happened.
And so I I really enjoy thatexperience of bringing family

(01:08:16):
members into a surfing lifebecause you really can see,
like, you know, your friendswho, you know, are perhaps in
their 30s, 40s women who sort oflet go of surfing.
You know, what's the storythere?
There's some story that's beingtold in their minds about that,
or maybe they just grow out ofit and they go in a different
direction.
But I I really love thatexperience as a parent and being

(01:08:39):
with other people's kids andseeing how we can help them
navigate this big new world ofthe ocean in a way that isn't
troubling or traumatic, but isalso getting the best out of
them and seeing them lit up bythe experience.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:56):
Speaking of which, what's been lighting you up
lately?

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:58):
Surfing.
So I've just come out of asailing, busy social period in
time, lots of things happening,also kind of a period of
physical challenge with illnessand different things through
this year.
It's been a strange year.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:12):
Before this episode, we released one called The
Rivers Run, and there's a bitmore about the story of that
deep physical challenge that youset up for our community, and
then the episode after the oneyou're listening to now will be
a deep dive into the boat tripthat you initiated.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:30):
Yeah.
So all those things areocean-centric, but in different
ways.
The paddle from Balloner toBruns, for me, it was a paddle
because I can't run.
And so I just paddled and swam.
You know, and then sailing isdeep water sailing.
You can feel it like surfing,but it's different.
And then now, yeah, is I I'mjust so pump.
I said this to you the other daywhen we went surfing together

(01:09:52):
for the first time in a while.
We hadn't had a surf like thatin a while.

SPEAKER_01 (01:09:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:55):
But I was just sharing with you how great it
felt for me to notice a changein the wind and say, Yes, I will
meet you there to that southeastwind.
Saying, Come, let's meet downdown the road here at this
little corner.
And I can say to the wind, sure,let's go.
And then you could too that day,and we did that together.

(01:10:16):
That to me is health, that iswealth, and that is very, very
fortunate life.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:22):
Yeah.
I had the great privilege ofgetting to see Upper Winfrey
speak in person not long ago,just a few weeks ago.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:29):
That lit you up.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:30):
It did light me up, that's for sure.
She is one of my childhoodinspirations because of the way
she brought great conversationand great questions into my home
and into my life as a kid.
Um, not to mention herincredible story of overcoming
adversity, but that's anothertime, a different story.
Um, she spoke about greatnessand how you can be kind of good

(01:10:54):
or make a living doing anythingyou can get by.
But to be truly great, you needlove.
And I so, when she was talkingabout that, I so thought of you
and your surfing life and yoursurfing career because you have
had incredible longevity withit, but also because I see how
much you protect it and how muchlove you have shielding outside

(01:11:19):
influence or meddling.
Like there's a large part ofyour surfing life that is deeply
personal.
You go away from people, yourarely surf in front of cameras.
You really make sure yourrelationship is strong and
connected with the ocean, withyour surfing life.
And I I just wanted to honorthat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:40):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:41):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:42):
How do you see your life, our lives looking in five,
10, 15 years from now?
And maybe more specifically,what areas of growth will you
pursue?
I feel like that's theinteresting part of that
question.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:53):
That was a question from a from a listener.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:55):
Yeah.
What areas of growth will youpursue?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:59):
Well, five years we'll have a 13-year-old, and I
would like to imagine hiscapabilities in the world are
all healthy and strong.
And that's interpersonalrelationships, but also with the
rest of the living world.
So I'd love for him to be astrong, capable young man around

(01:12:21):
the ocean, on the land, and withthe people.
And for us still able to laughand be as we are now in, I'm
sure, new and interesting ways.
And then the same again and thesame again.
I just don't really think ofprojecting that far into the
future quite often.

(01:12:41):
I don't think so.
Do you?
Do you think I do?

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:45):
No, I don't think you do, but I th I think you
have maybe they bubble uporganically, but you have big
dreams.
And maybe they can't come up andyou service them pretty
immediately, like the boat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:12:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:59):
Like the garden.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:00):
You know, returning to those themes of your early
life and influences and buildingsomething big and exciting as an
outlet to dive into them.
I'm not sure what the next onewill be for you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:13:10):
Yeah, me either.
Oh, great.
What about you?

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:13):
Um I've been really leaning into creative life.
I feel like I feel older all ofa sudden, 40.
Not that that feels old orsounds old to me, but I feel
like I've aged a lot in the lastcouple of years.
And with that has come this realwillingness to be with creative
process and creative practiceand like working with mixed

(01:13:36):
media and putting gifts togetherfor friends and family, and
specifically getting intowatercolors and watching the way
water and pigment move together.
That's been really lighting meup lately.
And I can see over the next 10,you know, five, 10, 15 years
moving into that more, maybegetting in touch with my inner

(01:13:56):
ceramicist again, making spacesfor that to happen really
easily.
And I guess, like you said,toward the start of this
conversation, from breaking thedeath habit, making sure those
creative practices are a part ofeveryday life.
And so the spaces are set up andready to roll as soon as you
have the time or the space tojump into them.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:15):
Yeah.
Great.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:17):
We always at the end of a year, we usually sit down
and have a big time forreflection.
How was 2025 for you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:24):
Oh well, this year, in terms of the calendar year,
has been uh quite challenging ina lot of ways with physical
stuff.
You getting Ross River, megetting staffed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:34):
Um we got hit by the crazy influenza bee.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:38):
Yeah, the Minnow broke his arm again, another
broken thing.
Um so there's a few physicalthings there, family members
getting quite sick andovercoming, thankfully.
But yeah, a bit of a bit of afull year when it came to
physical health.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:52):
I think I was I think I was sick for three
months out of this year.
Like really sick.

SPEAKER_00 (01:14:57):
Yeah.
But then, you know, othermoments like then we got to sail
with close friends up to thebarrier reef and follow through
on great oceanic adventures.
You got to go on yourall-friends surf trip and and
just surf as much as youphysically could, and that was
so great to see.
Uh, and then Minnow reallycoming into his own as a young
boy, lots of really wonderfulthings too, though, in some

(01:15:20):
ways, pretty happy to look at2026 around the corner and start
a different cycle of some sortand wondering where we'll go
next year with sort of someguiding thoughts.
You know, we often have a momentto look back and then look
forward.
And I loved your moment at thestart of this year where you
said uh that your guiding linewas to take good care of this.

(01:15:43):
And as I was cleaning solarpanels and mulching gardens and,
you know, really looking aftersystems and ecology around our
home space yesterday, I wasthinking that and I was thought,
wow, you did good with that.
I thought you did quite good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:59):
I forgot about that.
Did you?
Yeah, I totally forgot.
It's so funny.
It's so funny when you set awhen you set an intention or you
have some sort of guidingprinciple or area of growth that
you want to pursue, theopportunity to pursue it arises.
So I just think about you know,take good care of this.
I thought meant one thing, butfor me it actually ended up

(01:16:21):
coming back to taking care ofmyself.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:23):
Your body keeping your body.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:24):
I had lots of opportunity to work out, okay,
what does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:28):
So this year's one will be surfing a lot.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:33):
Yeah, and then that'll happen all year.
Great.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:36):
How should we end?

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:37):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 (01:16:38):
Do you have a bow?
Do you have a line or anintention for the year ahead?

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:44):
Surfing a lot.
No, I don't.
It's cool to sit down and dothis, and this reminds me of the
the kind of the feeling whenyeah, you just have a friend
that just maybe wants to have achat and just check in on you
and see how you're going and hownice that feels.
And you know, we've had the goodfortune to have a list of
prompts there from people whotune into this podcast, which is

(01:17:06):
amazing.
I still I'm so grateful thatwe're doing this because so
often when I'm having a surfsomewhere where there are people
around, I'll have an interactionwith someone who says, like
Banana Man at the farmer'smarket this morning, who goes,
Mate, I love the SterlingSpencer episode.
I got so much out of that.
And then he started gettingteary talking about what he felt
when he listened to that, whichI thought was just going to be

(01:17:29):
quite a comedic conversation,but it was actually for him
really moving.
There was a part of it thatreally got to him.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:35):
Love your banana man.

SPEAKER_00 (01:17:36):
Yeah, we love Craig, and so that is really great.
I love that that's stillhappening and happening more and
more.
Actually, this year's beenamazing for that.
There's been so many wonderfulsupportive moments where people
have said thanks for doing this.
So I would like for that tocontinue next year with that
knowing, going, hang on asecond, yeah.
This sort of creative process,making something like this,

(01:17:58):
yeah, it's great.
You get to see crazy-lookingnumbers of people who listen to
something like this.
You get a bit of support from asponsor here and there, those
are good things.
But really, for me, it's thatthat kind of conversation like
this morning, where you look atsomeone and they tell you, thank
you.
When I listened to thatconversation from that person
you had on there, you helped mewith something I really was

(01:18:22):
struggling with, or you helpedme see things in a new way, or
whatever it was useful and andvalued by them.
That's just so great.
It's really, really great.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:32):
And isn't that what great stories do?

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:37):
Time is precious.
Thanks for spending some ofyours listening with us today.
Our editor this season is themulti-talented Ben Jake
Alexander.
The soundtrack was composed byShannon Soul Carroll, with
additional tunes by Dave andBen.
We'll be continuing today'sconversation on Instagram, where
we're at Water People Podcast.
And you can subscribe to ourvery infrequent newsletter to

(01:18:59):
get book recommendations,questions for pondering, behind
the scenes glimpses intorecording the podcast, and more
via our website,waterpeoplepodcast.com.

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