Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer those
of the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's staff management or ownership.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find out Pete and Poet Gold. I'm
Peter Leonnone and I'm the poet Gold and we were
on the air this morning with Brigham may Azuka. She
is the Commissioner and Dutchess County Commission of Community and
Family Services. And we really eager to catch up to Sabrina,
but not before we go to the poet goal for
her weekly prayer poem incantation goal.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Let it roll please, Hey today I'm going to read
this morning foundation stable Love is not always at any time.
It can slide off of a cliff, land in a
precarious position, or become nestled in again. Rebuilding a foundation.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And foundation counts. And thank you for poem Gold and
Sabrina want you pick up in a in a enlightening
but non poetic way, what foundations are about? Foundation?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, thank you, thank you, Peter, thank you for it. Well,
that was beautiful foundation. I mean it is. I love
what you read because you started with love, right, and
that is the foundation. I tell myself all the time,
and I tell anyone you cannot do the job that
we do in our department if you do not have love.
(01:23):
It's impossible.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And so you think love is foundational.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Love is foundational to anything you want to accomplish. I mean,
we hear it all the time, right. If with no love,
there is nothing that the world stopped rolling and it truly,
I really believe. So I can't tell you how to
act if or even give you any advice if I
(01:50):
don't have a desire for your good. Right, If I hate,
I stop life. But if I I love, I bring life.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Right. Okay, So now you're with that. This is a
surprising answer, right, I say, okay, And we're on the
air with the commissioner of a community and Family services
and so what's the kido is? Oh, it's love. I
mean I was expecting a more bureaucratic answer, is my point.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There lies the difference, that's my point.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And I think also, you know your response to it
is that you look at your role and that could
be wrong. You know in some capacity that there has
to be a vulnerability in the leadership, absolutely, because that's
how you can acknowledge so easily where does it come
from It comes from love.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Correct, That's it. That's exactly it. And you know, I
mean anybody can push paper here and there and be
a bureaucruct and that's fine, you know, but if you
really want to help people, which is our mission, then
it's not about paper. It's about a person and it's
about loving them.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
And now, I guess loving it gets me nervous because
I'm that's good at loving people than I am liking them.
In other words, loving has sort of has a cosmic
feel to it. And and you know, I'm a little
shy are talking about that, although I think that, you know,
(03:28):
one of the crucial things or any community or any
national society is the people like each other.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I would say, like is not enough. I like chocolate,
you know, but I love my person and I can
like someone. So imagine I'm in my office and I
have thousands of applicants coming through the building looking for
a different support system, right, whether it's financial or whatnot.
And I like this one, but I don't like that one.
(04:00):
I'm gonna treat them differently. But if I love people,
if I love humanity, if I love I will treat
them the same.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Okay, Now this is it's not a truck question, so
actually a very genuine question. I mean, is love a
concept or is it a feeling? Oh?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I think it's not just a feeling. It's a belief.
It's a way of living. So if it's about feeling,
then yes, it's about liking disliking, you know, I mean
you hate as much as you love, right, that's your feeling.
But it's what do you do with your feelings and
how you melt that feeling into your belief, into your philosophy,
(04:40):
into how you see the world. So I'm talking about love,
how how you see the world and what your belief is.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Always, when I say sometimes in a space, do no harm?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Do you no harm?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
That comes from a love space that we can still disagree,
we can disagree passionately, but within my own psyche is
no matter how much we disagree, I.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Will do no harm.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Exactly, I will not.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's sort of like, go to that mean space and
just strike at you just because I know it's mean.
You know, it's it's that space it's operating, and that's
that's a love space in my humble opinion.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I think you got it, and that's foundational, right,
that's how I related to your poem.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And uh, you know, Pope Francis started in the last week,
and you know, both Sabinia and all a Catholics and
we are alert to that. But I feel as if
Sabernia's explanation of love there might have been a somewhat
(05:51):
like well, although possibly superior. That's Pope Francis's notion. I mean,
I would superior.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I think we've probably shared the same view.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Traditional but uh, yeah, the part where, uh, the fundamental
prohibition of the love dictates is don't do any harm.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Right right, right, right, and there's not a hierarchy with it. Yeah,
it's not when you say superior, there's not. There's not
a hierarchy in love.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Okay, it's just love. But love is better than doing home.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And if you love it, you can't you can't do
harm yet.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, do you know? Harm is a famous expression from
Hippocrity is the Greek adoptor who said the foundation of
Western medicine don't mess anything up, but you know, insurance
paying for it.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Otherwise the insurance has to pay more you.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So it's it gives us a sense of you know,
starting from a berief system, a sensor belief, the sensitor
on love. How that works into such a big social
system like the Duchess County Social Services say nothing of
you know, American Medicaid.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Oh gosh, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So you know, this is the.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Daily dilemma if you may between your desire to help
someone and then the tools that you have at your
possession to a system. Right, sometimes the tools are not working.
You know, there's eligibility criteria, there is all kinds of
red tape and processes people have to go through. It's
(07:49):
not always use a friendly and we don't have control
over that. These are dictated by the FEDS, by the state,
and we're just the arm that's implementing. Right. So I
tell staph think about it as a mechanic, right. You
go to a mechanic and you say, Okay, my car
is not working, can you check it out? They check,
and they may or may not have the equipment or
the piece that's missing that they need to order or whatever.
(08:12):
And I am like, similarly, we are here with the
set of tools and somebody comes forward with a need
and or tool may or may not work. If they work, yes, allelujah,
let's do this. But if they don't your role as
(08:33):
somebody who really is here to help and do no
harm is really to say, okay, I can't use these tools. Now,
let's see what's out there that may be helpful to you.
Maybe there's another organization that doesn't have all the stringent
requirements that we have that you may qualify for. Maybe
I know of, you know, a food pantry that's close
(08:56):
to where you live, where you could have access to
some food because you don't qualify for now whatever. So
that type of going above and beyond the paperwork is my.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Expectation, your expectation for staff, from correct for yourself, and
how do you know, I guess what I really want
to get to. Sometimes there's things that can't be done
for individuals and that must be hard to work.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That is very hard, That is extremely stressful. I mean
we we and when I say me, I'm talking to
my staff. You know we we suffer from secondary trauma
daily because everybody that comes to you is not coming
to you with a happy story, right, So you're listening
to these types of traumatic situation day in and day out.
(09:47):
You know, twenty thirty hundreds of those cases, and after
a while, it takes a tour on you, right, because
you you love and you you know, you come to
this job with the desire to help, and it becomes
more difficult when you're not successful for whatever reason, right,
whether you didn't have to write tools, or whether the
(10:08):
qualifications or whatever it was that you know, if you succeed,
that that's an amazing feeling that keeps you going. But
when you can't, you know you're already traumatized double right
by all these sad stories, and then you can't even
make a difference. So it does take a toe. And
(10:31):
you know, the self care is very important for us
because if you don't take care of yourself, you could
end up with creating barriers to protect yourself. Right. And
they call it in our world compassion fatigue. Right where
you seem to be dealing with someone who doesn't have
any compassion for you. That may not necessarily be what
(10:55):
it is. It could be a symptom of being burned
out that I can't deal with this, this is too
much for me, and so you start protecting yourself and
have so as soon as you see these types of symptoms,
you try to make sure you need some self care.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I want to come back to that, but before we
do to our listening audience. If you're just tuning in,
you're listening to finding out with Pete in the poet
Gold and I'm the poet Gold and we're here with
Sabrina Mazuka, Dutchess County Commissioner of Community and Family Services. Now,
you were speaking about compassion fatigue fatigue. Are there any
programs within the construct of the Dutchess count Community Office
(11:36):
for the employees like in EAP programs. Yes, absolutely, our
county get to that place.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, so our county And this is not just for
our department obviously, right, our county is very fortunate and
that we do have a strong EAP program. But I
think Dutchess County is also unique in that we have
a very strong internal collaboration among ourselves. So sometimes when
we have traumatic events, I would make a phone call
or direct phone call to my Commissioner of Mental Hygiene
(12:05):
and I'll say, Hey, I have staff who are you know,
really experiencing something really hard right now? Could you send
somebody over to have a conversation with them one on
one or a little bit of this therapeutic approach if
you may. And she's always very generous with that right,
because yes, staff knows they have the EP and you
(12:28):
know all of those other you know, available tools, but
the reality is sometimes you need a little more one
on one and a little more and even myself just
making a phone call if I know something happened. If
a case manager, for example, who's been taking care of
an adult Protective service client for a very long time
in a nursing home and this person passed away, it's
(12:50):
it's it's hard, right, I mean they know eventually somebody
will pass away, but it's still hard. So you know,
I tend to try to make a phone call to
that staff and make sure they are okay, and if
they need extra help, maybe reaching out to DMH or whatnot.
And you know, we've done little things. We've done things
like I think a couple of years ago, I had
(13:10):
a therapy dog come over to the office a few times,
you know, just to assist. If we've done things like
tai chika, you know, on Friday, just to help people.
We have different type of if you may possibilities for
stuff to take advantage of, and sometimes stuff will give
(13:32):
me ideas, Hey what about can we do this right?
Mindful mondays or exercises or anything. Yesterday, one of my
secretaries actually came in and said, hey, can we do
a little bit of chair exercises because she was a
little stressed, And I said, you know what I needed too,
So we went to the conference room. We did it
for ten minutes. It was great.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Now I have a question, I know if you can
answer it or not. But like those types of programs
like the tai Chi or the therapy dog, those are
those funded by state or is that uneral money?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I tend to try to ask for favor, so I
get it for free.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But it doesn't last too long, gotcha, gotcha? You know
it sounds like you know, it's it's definitely it's great programming,
and it's and it's mindful programming, you know, support for
for people. But I know some of the mindful things
and languages are being you know targeted as sort of
like on the cutting block and so you know, so
(14:27):
I was just curious how vulnerable those type of things
to help staff be holistically healthy, if they're a threat
as well.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Or keep or EP program I don't think it's going anywhere.
You know, this is a count E commitment, and I
feel comfortable saying that knowing or county executive. It is
very keen on being supportive. That being said, you know,
I think that part of leadership is trying to figure
(14:57):
out how you help your stuff and being creative how
you do it. So a lot of what the little
things here and there that we do are you know,
usually free kind of approaches and little parties, little things
you know, like Sinkle de Mayo is coming, you know,
let's do a Sinkle the Mayo thing. We've done all
kinds of little employee appreciation, right. We try to do
(15:22):
different themes around the employee appreciation. It's small, it's a
small gesture, but it's important, you know. You people need
to know that that they are heard. I give them
an opportunity to have an open door policy. I also
do what I call listening tours, So I'll sit down
with staff for an hour different units and just I
(15:43):
have no agenda. It's whatever they want to talk about,
and it's an opportunity to you know, have a conversation about,
you know, what can we do to improve the work
environment or anything. I mean, really, it's it's whatever they
want to talk about.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
You certainly have to keep the stay of healthy as
a simple way to put it. Absolutely, but h and
you know, some things are free, some things that people
can have mutual supports and all. But if you had
a worst case scenario, let's say there was an eight
hundred million dollars to medicaid, how would that look in
(16:22):
Duct's county? Because it's been talked about in a serious way.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well, I do think that there is a lot of
questions about, you know, what's going on with the federal government,
what money is, are we going to get what money
is or not? And a lot of it is obviously
in my department, right, I mean, whether it's SNAP or
food or temporary assistance or medicaid. You know, a lot
of these are heavily food stuff. It's foods them, right.
(16:46):
It's heavily federal funding, but it's also state funding. I
think partly we have to think about you know what,
I don't like to panic. I think when we panic,
we make stupid decsis, right, But it's important to be mindful, right.
So it's a concept of assessing what what is really happening,
(17:09):
and how do we educate our representative to what services
are available and what impact any cut could have. I
currently serve as the president of the New York State
Public Welfare Association, And that is one thing that we
are focusing on to try to all of the commissioners.
(17:33):
Every every county has the commissioner of Social Services, so
every every commissioner is part.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Of the commissioner's commissioner.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I'm not the commissions just I'm just this year just
the president of the association. And this is one of
the things that we are focusing on is trying to assess, Okay,
so how many people do we serve and and what
what funding goes along with that service and the so
if there is an impact, what does that look like
(18:03):
in your community? And then the state, of course, you know,
has a role to play because a lot of that
funding also has a percentage of state funding. You know,
it's not all federal. Some of them are, some of
them are also states. So it's it's it's really an
interesting time, I think because it forces you to look
(18:23):
at your mandates and really try to assess how to
be more effective right in this in your approach, and
there's a lot I think of opportunity. I know it
sounds crazy for me to say that in this time,
but I think it is in crisis that we have
opportunities because we take so many things for granted. But
(18:47):
when things become oh maybe it's not for granted, it
forces off to think differently, right, and to come up
with different ways of doing things. And I think we
are sort of in the middle of this right now.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I'm a true believer in that that when I always
feel that we don't grow as individuals in complacency, it's
it's it's when the when the friction happens, that's when
the growth happens. And that's in anything in life. There's
always an opportunity sort of in that storm, you just
have to settle down and.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Just don't panic, right, but think if you're.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Just doing and you're listening to finding out with Pete
and the Poet Gold, I'm Peter o'len and I'm the
Poet Gold. And once again we're here with Sabrina Mazuka,
Dutchess County Commission of Community and Family Services.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And Sabrina, I want to say a less I'm curious
or optimistic version of cutting eight hundred million dollars head
of the federal budget. To me, that's how you refer
to the tools that you know any system has. That's
how taking all the wrenches in a in a garage
and that hey, I got let's melt down the wrenches.
(19:50):
Everyone throw their tools in the in the fire and
will melt it down. And thought over again, I I
think we're in a crisis time. And unlike both of you,
who are both more you know, hopeful or spiritually year
than I might be, I think if you cut eight
hundred million dollars out or four hundred million dollars or
(20:13):
whatever you cut out, we're already on the half underwater.
And you know, you put lead shoes on somebody who's drowning, they.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Drown and so as you unless unless you send them
a different lifesaver.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeahs drowning. But we we are certainly at a time
of crisis. And I guess what I want to go
back to our earlier conversation with uh. You know, and
(20:50):
I know from watching you for decades work you're very
nimble in terms of UH taking what's available in max.
But sometimes just the way you know, it's hard when
you can't help a person, the system will allow that
that whole system might become relative relatively the funt And
(21:14):
now that's where my worries are currently.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
This is where I'm hopeful because I know the system
right now really doesn't do as good as it could. Right,
So now it's like the perfect time to say, Okay,
maybe I can change this system to make it more efficient,
meaning meeting the needs, not the need of the paperwork,
(21:43):
but meeting the need of that individual in a more
impactful way that's really going to take him or her
out of poverty. Right, So it's one thing to help.
I'll just give you an example. So you come in, see,
you know, unfortunate circumstances, you lost your job, you had
some health issues, so you kind of lost your health insurance.
(22:04):
I mean, you're really you're not in a good state.
And then of course now you can't pay your rent.
Your landlord is you're increasing the rent. You don't have
you rent through your savings. Right, So now you come
to us because you're like, okay, I'm desperate here, like
I need help. I need help on so many level.
Right first, but first things first, I don't want to
(22:25):
get evicted, right, So obviously we're going to try to
see how we can manage you. Well, guess what one
of the current systems, the traditional rental assistance over your program, right,
the traditional federal system says, I'm not going to pay
your rentalreer if you cannot demonstrate that you can sustain
(22:48):
payment moving forward. Well, obviously if you're out of a
job and you don't get right, So now you're like, well,
maybe you need temporary assistance, so you should apply for
temporary assistance. And then maybe temporary assists and could you
know through its cash to you provide what you would need. Well,
the THHA, the temporary housing assistance dollars is definitely not
(23:11):
gonna pay you rent. It's not not the place of rent.
So you know, again, the New York State has tried
to look at different ways and saying oh, okay, well,
well will allow you to apply for a waiver and
maybe give you some supplements. So I applied for that
ages ago, right, give me a supplements so that it
can be more money for the individual to afford. Well,
(23:34):
the rent went up again, So you know, we're constantly
battling the system itself, applying for waivers, doing you know,
any whichever way you you know, I always say God
God puts you sometimes in places and you wonder why
and then later on you find out. Right, you know,
my my background between public health and law has helped
(23:57):
me a lot. In my current world. I can kind
of look at the rags and sort of see loopholes
and say, oh, let's try this right in different things
of that nature. But ultimately, the system itself was designed
ages and ages ago to address issues that are so
different than the issues we're dealing with right now that
(24:18):
it really needs to be reworked because the individuals we're
serving now have complex issues that cannot be addressed the
way or system or system is punished approach. Right, you
want this, you must do that. But if I'm not
in the mental state to be able to do that,
(24:38):
I'm gonna get sanctioned. So I'm losing the help. So
how are we helping you? Right? So the system really
needs to be revamped. And this is to me the
crisis time where we can really knock on those doors
and say, Okay, you could save money, literally save money
if you change the system, because you're way wasting some
(25:00):
of that money because you're trying to put the circle
in the square. So let's make the system a square
and maybe we will stop the nonsense.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Right. So, sometimes the system does harm and in the
beginning of the conversation with saying that general rule should
be or the specific rule should be, you no harm,
give us a sense. We only have you know, five
minutes left, but I would appreciate it if you gave
us a sense of you know, how you came to
(25:31):
your job. I know you may you mentioned a lawyer,
and you have a public health and you have credentials.
But what is it about your life that made you
get those credentials? And how did they show? That spirit
show up in your will?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Do you have sixty years? That's a luded Christian Peter.
I was born and raised in Haiti, and it is
the restination in this setmosphere right and still is battling
lots of issues. So I was exposed, I guess, early
on to poverty and its impact on people's life. But
(26:12):
I was also exposed to a culture that is extremely
hopeful in light of all of the difficulties. And I
always say to people, when you when you grow up
in those circumstances, you kind of like a very clear
understanding of gratitude, of appreciation for what you have. You
understand how it could have been very different for you,
(26:35):
and then you sort of have you come to a
point where you make a choice. You either it's so
you feel guilty, Why me? Why was I born in
this house and not in the house next door? Right,
You have that guilt experience, and you choose to either
roll up your sleeve and do something about it or
just ignore it because you just can't handle it. Right,
(26:58):
And I just choose to rule my sleeves. And that's
my story.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
And then you went to school in the United States
from Haiti.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I was. I came here first. My father was
very instrumental in that I wanted to go to law school,
and I think he was concerned for my safety and
made a deal, made a deal for me to come
to the United States and take my degree, hoping that
I would change my mind.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
But I did not.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
So I did get a bachelor's and went back to
Haiti to go back to law school. And I appreciate
what my father did and that helped me a lot
in my current situation. And while in Haiti and going
to law school, I worked in the slums and that's
where I fell in love with public health and pursued
public health.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
And so when I first knew you a very long
time ago, are you were working at Catherine six Community
What year was that about ninety two?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, nineteen ninety two when I moved here, Wow, yeah,
and started at Catherine Street. That was my first job
in Dutchess County. Yeah, and county for a minute since
ninety two.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, And what was the experience Catherine's Community Center? How
did that propel you into a Duchess County life and structure?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, Catherine Street was my stepping stone, I guess, you know,
getting to know the community and understanding the needs of
the community and getting immersed into Poughkeepsie and life in
Dutchess County. I had two children, and when I had
my second child, I realized that I just could not
sustain I'm really a workaholic, and I really couldn't do
(28:48):
justice to Catherine Street in terms of how much time
that I would want to spend and need to spend
to continue to be successful and have two children, you know,
eighteen months apart. It felt like Kevin Twins. So I
took a break for lack of a better term, and
worked and stayed at home for a while. I think
(29:09):
it's very important to be there for your children, particularly
in the early ages. And then when I felt ready
to go back to work, and opportunity came at the
Health Department for a position that they had just created,
which was really like written for me. It was it
was a director of Health Planning and Education and that
(29:31):
was my mph and that that's how I entered public life.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Having a degree. How is that? How was that?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Oh? My god? Everything every day? Every day. I mean
to practice law here, I would have to go back
to school because i Haiti is a French Napoleonic system,
so I can I can practice I think in Louisiana,
but that's the only state that has a Napoleonic good
and I I'm not going back to those school.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Sabrina has been great speaking with you. Thank you for
being here today and finding Out with Pete and the
poet Gold. And thank you to our listeners. And once again,
you know, if you like to hear the show again
and just tune into our podcast every Saturday morning, and
I mean our show is every Saturday morning and Sunday,
but but tune into the podcast through iHeart and look
up finding Out with Pete and the poet Gold. Thank
you so much, prank you
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer those
of the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the station.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
It's staff management or ownership.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find out Pete and Poet Gold. I'm
Peter Leonnone and I'm the poet Gold and we were
on the air this morning with Brigham may Azuka. She
is the Commissioner and Dutchess County Commission of Community and
Family Services. And we really eager to catch up to Sabrina,
but not before we go to the poet goal for
her weekly prayer poem incantation goal.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Let it roll please, Hey today I'm going to read
this morning foundation stable Love is not always at any time.
It can slide off of a cliff, land in a
precarious position, or become nestled in again. Rebuilding a foundation.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And foundation counts. And thank you for poem Gold and
Sabrina want you pick up in a in a enlightening
but non poetic way, what foundations are about? Foundation?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Well, thank you, thank you, Peter, thank you for it. Well,
that was beautiful foundation. I mean it is. I love
what you read because you started with love, right, and
that is the foundation. I tell myself all the time,
and I tell anyone you cannot do the job that
we do in our department if you do not have love.
(01:23):
It's impossible.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And so you think love is foundational.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Love is foundational to anything you want to accomplish. I mean,
we hear it all the time, right. If with no love,
there is nothing that the world stopped rolling and it truly,
I really believe. So I can't tell you how to
act if or even give you any advice if I
(01:50):
don't have a desire for your good. Right, If I hate,
I stop life. But if I I love, I bring life.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
Right. Okay, So now you're with that. This is a
surprising answer, right, I say, okay, And we're on the
air with the commissioner of a community and Family services
and so what's the kido is? Oh, it's love. I
mean I was expecting a more bureaucratic answer, is my point.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
There lies the difference, that's my point.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And I think also, you know your response to it
is that you look at your role and that could
be wrong. You know in some capacity that there has
to be a vulnerability in the leadership, absolutely, because that's
how you can acknowledge so easily where does it come
from It comes from love.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Correct, That's it. That's exactly it. And you know, I
mean anybody can push paper here and there and be
a bureaucruct and that's fine, you know, but if you
really want to help people, which is our mission, then
it's not about paper. It's about a person and it's
about loving them.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
And now, I guess loving it gets me nervous because
I'm that's good at loving people than I am liking them.
In other words, loving has sort of has a cosmic
feel to it. And and you know, I'm a little
shy are talking about that, although I think that, you know,
(03:28):
one of the crucial things or any community or any
national society is the people like each other.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I would say, like is not enough. I like chocolate,
you know, but I love my person and I can
like someone. So imagine I'm in my office and I
have thousands of applicants coming through the building looking for
a different support system, right, whether it's financial or whatnot.
And I like this one, but I don't like that one.
(04:00):
I'm gonna treat them differently. But if I love people,
if I love humanity, if I love I will treat
them the same.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Okay, Now this is it's not a truck question, so
actually a very genuine question. I mean, is love a
concept or is it a feeling? Oh?
Speaker 2 (04:19):
I think it's not just a feeling. It's a belief.
It's a way of living. So if it's about feeling,
then yes, it's about liking disliking, you know, I mean
you hate as much as you love, right, that's your feeling.
But it's what do you do with your feelings and
how you melt that feeling into your belief, into your philosophy,
(04:40):
into how you see the world. So I'm talking about love,
how how you see the world and what your belief is.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Always, when I say sometimes in a space, do no harm?
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Do you no harm?
Speaker 1 (04:55):
That comes from a love space that we can still disagree,
we can disagree passionately, but within my own psyche is
no matter how much we disagree, I.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Will do no harm.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Exactly, I will not.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
It's sort of like, go to that mean space and
just strike at you just because I know it's mean.
You know, it's it's that space it's operating, and that's
that's a love space in my humble opinion.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
So I think you got it, and that's foundational, right,
that's how I related to your poem.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
And uh, you know, Pope Francis started in the last week,
and you know, both Sabinia and all a Catholics and
we are alert to that. But I feel as if
Sabernia's explanation of love there might have been a somewhat
(05:51):
like well, although possibly superior. That's Pope Francis's notion. I mean,
I would superior.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
I think we've probably shared the same view.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
Traditional but uh, yeah, the part where, uh, the fundamental
prohibition of the love dictates is don't do any harm.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Right right, right, right, and there's not a hierarchy with it. Yeah,
it's not when you say superior, there's not. There's not
a hierarchy in love.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
Okay, it's just love. But love is better than doing home.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And if you love it, you can't you can't do
harm yet.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Yeah, do you know? Harm is a famous expression from
Hippocrity is the Greek adoptor who said the foundation of
Western medicine don't mess anything up, but you know, insurance
paying for it.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Otherwise the insurance has to pay more you.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
So it's it gives us a sense of you know,
starting from a berief system, a sensor belief, the sensitor
on love. How that works into such a big social
system like the Duchess County Social Services say nothing of
you know, American Medicaid.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Oh gosh, yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:25):
So you know, this is the.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Daily dilemma if you may between your desire to help
someone and then the tools that you have at your
possession to a system. Right, sometimes the tools are not working.
You know, there's eligibility criteria, there is all kinds of
red tape and processes people have to go through. It's
(07:49):
not always use a friendly and we don't have control
over that. These are dictated by the FEDS, by the state,
and we're just the arm that's implementing. Right. So I
tell staph think about it as a mechanic, right. You
go to a mechanic and you say, Okay, my car
is not working, can you check it out? They check,
and they may or may not have the equipment or
the piece that's missing that they need to order or whatever.
(08:12):
And I am like, similarly, we are here with the
set of tools and somebody comes forward with a need
and or tool may or may not work. If they work, yes, allelujah,
let's do this. But if they don't your role as
(08:33):
somebody who really is here to help and do no
harm is really to say, okay, I can't use these tools. Now,
let's see what's out there that may be helpful to you.
Maybe there's another organization that doesn't have all the stringent
requirements that we have that you may qualify for. Maybe
I know of, you know, a food pantry that's close
(08:56):
to where you live, where you could have access to
some food because you don't qualify for now whatever. So
that type of going above and beyond the paperwork is my.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
Expectation, your expectation for staff, from correct for yourself, and
how do you know, I guess what I really want
to get to. Sometimes there's things that can't be done
for individuals and that must be hard to work.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
That is very hard, That is extremely stressful. I mean
we we and when I say me, I'm talking to
my staff. You know we we suffer from secondary trauma
daily because everybody that comes to you is not coming
to you with a happy story, right, So you're listening
to these types of traumatic situation day in and day out.
(09:47):
You know, twenty thirty hundreds of those cases, and after
a while, it takes a tour on you, right, because
you you love and you you know, you come to
this job with the desire to help, and it becomes
more difficult when you're not successful for whatever reason, right,
whether you didn't have to write tools, or whether the
(10:08):
qualifications or whatever it was that you know, if you succeed,
that that's an amazing feeling that keeps you going. But
when you can't, you know you're already traumatized double right
by all these sad stories, and then you can't even
make a difference. So it does take a toe. And
(10:31):
you know, the self care is very important for us
because if you don't take care of yourself, you could
end up with creating barriers to protect yourself. Right. And
they call it in our world compassion fatigue. Right where
you seem to be dealing with someone who doesn't have
any compassion for you. That may not necessarily be what
(10:55):
it is. It could be a symptom of being burned
out that I can't deal with this, this is too
much for me, and so you start protecting yourself and
have so as soon as you see these types of symptoms,
you try to make sure you need some self care.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
I want to come back to that, but before we
do to our listening audience. If you're just tuning in,
you're listening to finding out with Pete in the poet
Gold and I'm the poet Gold and we're here with
Sabrina Mazuka, Dutchess County Commissioner of Community and Family Services. Now,
you were speaking about compassion fatigue fatigue. Are there any
programs within the construct of the Dutchess count Community Office
(11:36):
for the employees like in EAP programs. Yes, absolutely, our
county get to that place.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yes, so our county And this is not just for
our department obviously, right, our county is very fortunate and
that we do have a strong EAP program. But I
think Dutchess County is also unique in that we have
a very strong internal collaboration among ourselves. So sometimes when
we have traumatic events, I would make a phone call
or direct phone call to my Commissioner of Mental Hygiene
(12:05):
and I'll say, Hey, I have staff who are you know,
really experiencing something really hard right now? Could you send
somebody over to have a conversation with them one on
one or a little bit of this therapeutic approach if
you may. And she's always very generous with that right,
because yes, staff knows they have the EP and you
(12:28):
know all of those other you know, available tools, but
the reality is sometimes you need a little more one
on one and a little more and even myself just
making a phone call if I know something happened. If
a case manager, for example, who's been taking care of
an adult Protective service client for a very long time
in a nursing home and this person passed away, it's
(12:50):
it's it's hard, right, I mean they know eventually somebody
will pass away, but it's still hard. So you know,
I tend to try to make a phone call to
that staff and make sure they are okay, and if
they need extra help, maybe reaching out to DMH or whatnot.
And you know, we've done little things. We've done things
like I think a couple of years ago, I had
(13:10):
a therapy dog come over to the office a few times,
you know, just to assist. If we've done things like
tai chika, you know, on Friday, just to help people.
We have different type of if you may possibilities for
stuff to take advantage of, and sometimes stuff will give
(13:32):
me ideas, Hey what about can we do this right?
Mindful mondays or exercises or anything. Yesterday, one of my
secretaries actually came in and said, hey, can we do
a little bit of chair exercises because she was a
little stressed, And I said, you know what I needed too,
So we went to the conference room. We did it
for ten minutes. It was great.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Now I have a question, I know if you can
answer it or not. But like those types of programs
like the tai Chi or the therapy dog, those are
those funded by state or is that uneral money?
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (14:01):
I tend to try to ask for favor, so I
get it for free.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But it doesn't last too long, gotcha, gotcha? You know
it sounds like you know, it's it's definitely it's great programming,
and it's and it's mindful programming, you know, support for
for people. But I know some of the mindful things
and languages are being you know targeted as sort of
like on the cutting block and so you know, so
(14:27):
I was just curious how vulnerable those type of things
to help staff be holistically healthy, if they're a threat
as well.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
Or keep or EP program I don't think it's going anywhere.
You know, this is a count E commitment, and I
feel comfortable saying that knowing or county executive. It is
very keen on being supportive. That being said, you know,
I think that part of leadership is trying to figure
(14:57):
out how you help your stuff and being creative how
you do it. So a lot of what the little
things here and there that we do are you know,
usually free kind of approaches and little parties, little things
you know, like Sinkle de Mayo is coming, you know,
let's do a Sinkle the Mayo thing. We've done all
kinds of little employee appreciation, right. We try to do
(15:22):
different themes around the employee appreciation. It's small, it's a
small gesture, but it's important, you know. You people need
to know that that they are heard. I give them
an opportunity to have an open door policy. I also
do what I call listening tours, So I'll sit down
with staff for an hour different units and just I
(15:43):
have no agenda. It's whatever they want to talk about,
and it's an opportunity to you know, have a conversation about,
you know, what can we do to improve the work
environment or anything. I mean, really, it's it's whatever they
want to talk about.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
You certainly have to keep the stay of healthy as
a simple way to put it. Absolutely, but h and
you know, some things are free, some things that people
can have mutual supports and all. But if you had
a worst case scenario, let's say there was an eight
hundred million dollars to medicaid, how would that look in
(16:22):
Duct's county? Because it's been talked about in a serious way.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well, I do think that there is a lot of
questions about, you know, what's going on with the federal government,
what money is, are we going to get what money
is or not? And a lot of it is obviously
in my department, right, I mean, whether it's SNAP or
food or temporary assistance or medicaid. You know, a lot
of these are heavily food stuff. It's foods them, right.
(16:46):
It's heavily federal funding, but it's also state funding. I
think partly we have to think about you know what,
I don't like to panic. I think when we panic,
we make stupid decsis, right, But it's important to be mindful, right.
So it's a concept of assessing what what is really happening,
(17:09):
and how do we educate our representative to what services
are available and what impact any cut could have. I
currently serve as the president of the New York State
Public Welfare Association, And that is one thing that we
are focusing on to try to all of the commissioners.
(17:33):
Every every county has the commissioner of Social Services, so
every every commissioner is part.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Of the commissioner's commissioner.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
I'm not the commissions just I'm just this year just
the president of the association. And this is one of
the things that we are focusing on is trying to assess, Okay,
so how many people do we serve and and what
what funding goes along with that service and the so
if there is an impact, what does that look like
(18:03):
in your community? And then the state, of course, you know,
has a role to play because a lot of that
funding also has a percentage of state funding. You know,
it's not all federal. Some of them are, some of
them are also states. So it's it's it's really an
interesting time, I think because it forces you to look
(18:23):
at your mandates and really try to assess how to
be more effective right in this in your approach, and
there's a lot I think of opportunity. I know it
sounds crazy for me to say that in this time,
but I think it is in crisis that we have
opportunities because we take so many things for granted. But
(18:47):
when things become oh maybe it's not for granted, it
forces off to think differently, right, and to come up
with different ways of doing things. And I think we
are sort of in the middle of this right now.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I'm a true believer in that that when I always
feel that we don't grow as individuals in complacency, it's
it's it's when the when the friction happens, that's when
the growth happens. And that's in anything in life. There's
always an opportunity sort of in that storm, you just
have to settle down and.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Just don't panic, right, but think if you're.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Just doing and you're listening to finding out with Pete
and the Poet Gold, I'm Peter o'len and I'm the
Poet Gold. And once again we're here with Sabrina Mazuka,
Dutchess County Commission of Community and Family Services.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
And Sabrina, I want to say a less I'm curious
or optimistic version of cutting eight hundred million dollars head
of the federal budget. To me, that's how you refer
to the tools that you know any system has. That's
how taking all the wrenches in a in a garage
and that hey, I got let's melt down the wrenches.
(19:50):
Everyone throw their tools in the in the fire and
will melt it down. And thought over again, I I
think we're in a crisis time. And unlike both of you,
who are both more you know, hopeful or spiritually year
than I might be, I think if you cut eight
hundred million dollars out or four hundred million dollars or
(20:13):
whatever you cut out, we're already on the half underwater.
And you know, you put lead shoes on somebody who's drowning, they.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Drown and so as you unless unless you send them
a different lifesaver.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeahs drowning. But we we are certainly at a time
of crisis. And I guess what I want to go
back to our earlier conversation with uh. You know, and
(20:50):
I know from watching you for decades work you're very
nimble in terms of UH taking what's available in max.
But sometimes just the way you know, it's hard when
you can't help a person, the system will allow that
that whole system might become relative relatively the funt And
(21:14):
now that's where my worries are currently.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
This is where I'm hopeful because I know the system
right now really doesn't do as good as it could. Right,
So now it's like the perfect time to say, Okay,
maybe I can change this system to make it more efficient,
meaning meeting the needs, not the need of the paperwork,
(21:43):
but meeting the need of that individual in a more
impactful way that's really going to take him or her
out of poverty. Right, So it's one thing to help.
I'll just give you an example. So you come in, see,
you know, unfortunate circumstances, you lost your job, you had
some health issues, so you kind of lost your health insurance.
(22:04):
I mean, you're really you're not in a good state.
And then of course now you can't pay your rent.
Your landlord is you're increasing the rent. You don't have
you rent through your savings. Right, So now you come
to us because you're like, okay, I'm desperate here, like
I need help. I need help on so many level.
Right first, but first things first, I don't want to
(22:25):
get evicted, right, So obviously we're going to try to
see how we can manage you. Well, guess what one
of the current systems, the traditional rental assistance over your program, right,
the traditional federal system says, I'm not going to pay
your rentalreer if you cannot demonstrate that you can sustain
(22:48):
payment moving forward. Well, obviously if you're out of a
job and you don't get right, So now you're like, well,
maybe you need temporary assistance, so you should apply for
temporary assistance. And then maybe temporary assists and could you
know through its cash to you provide what you would need. Well,
the THHA, the temporary housing assistance dollars is definitely not
(23:11):
gonna pay you rent. It's not not the place of rent.
So you know, again, the New York State has tried
to look at different ways and saying oh, okay, well,
well will allow you to apply for a waiver and
maybe give you some supplements. So I applied for that
ages ago, right, give me a supplements so that it
can be more money for the individual to afford. Well,
(23:34):
the rent went up again, So you know, we're constantly
battling the system itself, applying for waivers, doing you know,
any whichever way you you know, I always say God
God puts you sometimes in places and you wonder why
and then later on you find out. Right, you know,
my my background between public health and law has helped
(23:57):
me a lot. In my current world. I can kind
of look at the rags and sort of see loopholes
and say, oh, let's try this right in different things
of that nature. But ultimately, the system itself was designed
ages and ages ago to address issues that are so
different than the issues we're dealing with right now that
(24:18):
it really needs to be reworked because the individuals we're
serving now have complex issues that cannot be addressed the
way or system or system is punished approach. Right, you
want this, you must do that. But if I'm not
in the mental state to be able to do that,
(24:38):
I'm gonna get sanctioned. So I'm losing the help. So
how are we helping you? Right? So the system really
needs to be revamped. And this is to me the
crisis time where we can really knock on those doors
and say, Okay, you could save money, literally save money
if you change the system, because you're way wasting some
(25:00):
of that money because you're trying to put the circle
in the square. So let's make the system a square
and maybe we will stop the nonsense.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Right. So, sometimes the system does harm and in the
beginning of the conversation with saying that general rule should
be or the specific rule should be, you no harm,
give us a sense. We only have you know, five
minutes left, but I would appreciate it if you gave
us a sense of you know, how you came to
(25:31):
your job. I know you may you mentioned a lawyer,
and you have a public health and you have credentials.
But what is it about your life that made you
get those credentials? And how did they show? That spirit
show up in your will?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Do you have sixty years? That's a luded Christian Peter.
I was born and raised in Haiti, and it is
the restination in this setmosphere right and still is battling
lots of issues. So I was exposed, I guess, early
on to poverty and its impact on people's life. But
(26:12):
I was also exposed to a culture that is extremely
hopeful in light of all of the difficulties. And I
always say to people, when you when you grow up
in those circumstances, you kind of like a very clear
understanding of gratitude, of appreciation for what you have. You
understand how it could have been very different for you,
(26:35):
and then you sort of have you come to a
point where you make a choice. You either it's so
you feel guilty, Why me? Why was I born in
this house and not in the house next door? Right,
You have that guilt experience, and you choose to either
roll up your sleeve and do something about it or
just ignore it because you just can't handle it. Right,
(26:58):
And I just choose to rule my sleeves. And that's
my story.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
And then you went to school in the United States
from Haiti.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, I was. I came here first. My father was
very instrumental in that I wanted to go to law school,
and I think he was concerned for my safety and
made a deal, made a deal for me to come
to the United States and take my degree, hoping that
I would change my mind.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
But I did not.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
So I did get a bachelor's and went back to
Haiti to go back to law school. And I appreciate
what my father did and that helped me a lot
in my current situation. And while in Haiti and going
to law school, I worked in the slums and that's
where I fell in love with public health and pursued
public health.
Speaker 3 (27:48):
And so when I first knew you a very long
time ago, are you were working at Catherine six Community
What year was that about ninety two?
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Yeah, nineteen ninety two when I moved here, Wow, yeah,
and started at Catherine Street. That was my first job
in Dutchess County. Yeah, and county for a minute since
ninety two.
Speaker 3 (28:09):
Yeah, And what was the experience Catherine's Community Center? How
did that propel you into a Duchess County life and structure?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Well, Catherine Street was my stepping stone, I guess, you know,
getting to know the community and understanding the needs of
the community and getting immersed into Poughkeepsie and life in
Dutchess County. I had two children, and when I had
my second child, I realized that I just could not
sustain I'm really a workaholic, and I really couldn't do
(28:48):
justice to Catherine Street in terms of how much time
that I would want to spend and need to spend
to continue to be successful and have two children, you know,
eighteen months apart. It felt like Kevin Twins. So I
took a break for lack of a better term, and
worked and stayed at home for a while. I think
(29:09):
it's very important to be there for your children, particularly
in the early ages. And then when I felt ready
to go back to work, and opportunity came at the
Health Department for a position that they had just created,
which was really like written for me. It was it
was a director of Health Planning and Education and that
(29:31):
was my mph and that that's how I entered public life.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Having a degree. How is that? How was that?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Oh? My god? Everything every day? Every day. I mean
to practice law here, I would have to go back
to school because i Haiti is a French Napoleonic system,
so I can I can practice I think in Louisiana,
but that's the only state that has a Napoleonic good
and I I'm not going back to those school.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Sabrina has been great speaking with you. Thank you for
being here today and finding Out with Pete and the
poet Gold. And thank you to our listeners. And once again,
you know, if you like to hear the show again
and just tune into our podcast every Saturday morning, and
I mean our show is every Saturday morning and Sunday,
but but tune into the podcast through iHeart and look
up finding Out with Pete and the poet Gold. Thank
you so much, prank you
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