Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer those
of the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the
station it's staff, management or ownership.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find out with Pete and Poet Cold.
I'm Peter Leonard and I'm the poet Gold and we're
on the this morning with people from Cash which stands
we're celebrating the African spirit. And the people we are
going to be speaking with today is Khalema Kareem, the
treasury of the organization and the co founder Calmen Negil.
And before we get to Calmen and Kalima, we're going
(00:31):
to go right through the Poe Cold for her weekly
poem prayer incantation Gold, please let it roll.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm going to be doing another poem out of my
upcoming book. From the book is titled Be the Poem
Living Beyond Our Fears. Black boys dance. I love watching
black boys dance. Black men dance. I love watching black
men dance. The contour of their bodies upright, curve, disjointed,
aligned feet, moving fast and slow, then slow, then fast, glide.
(01:00):
They got to glow. They gotta glow. I shed tears,
I laugh, I smile, my eyes twinkle and gleam, knowing
for that moment they are truly free dance. Black boy dance,
black men dance as Shay.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And you know, that's the first time I heard that
poem read. I read the poem and the word that
really moved me was the word God. And then when
you performed it, you read it right now, God really
works in that poem. Goal and that poem celebrates the
African spirit and calm. Maybe you could give us a
(01:42):
sense of what cast is about you celebrating the African spirit,
how it thoughted and you know what's going on with
you guys.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Okay, Catherine Height, who's a professor at Vassar College and
myself we met through a mutual friend.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Uh he was.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
She gave him a presentation that the student had made,
and the last paragraph of the presentation was that because
of the Livingston slaves in Dutchess County, that the people
of Poughkeepsie need to experiment and need to find out
research to see whether see what you can find about
(02:27):
those people who did the work.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And uh uh, I'm going to interrupt you right away
when you say the Livingston slaves, you want to explain that.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yes, the Livingston family in Dutchess County owned more enslaved
people than anybody else in Dutchess County, and all around
the Hudson Valley, you know, in Sullivan County there's Livingston
manor the Livingston evidence all over the all over the
Hudson Valley area.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So you wanted to make that.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Right, No, So the last paragraph of her presentation was, well,
the people at Poughkeepsie need to find out what happened
to these people because there's no evidence that they existed
at all, and it's not taught in the schools. And
so the Black History Project Committee, of which I was
the chair, we said, that's so obvious. Wow, you know,
(03:23):
we should definitely do that, you know. And so that's
how the Black History Project Committee morphed into They had
a baby, and the baby became celebrating the African spirit,
and that's how I met Katie Heyde.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Okay, And you know, I like when you say it
just seems so obvious, you know, But believe me, if
you're a white middle class person like me, it's not
obvious because it's hidden. You know, I didn't know that.
I mean, you guys are going out of your way
to teach it to the whole community is a big
(03:59):
deal because it's not obvious to anybody but you but yourselves,
and you're you're making it part of what it means
to be in the Hudson Valley is to know something
about your history and that we had a lot of
slaves here, right.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And it depends on I guess it depends on the
perspective of those people who are other than than black
or brown as to whether or not such a thing
would be, you know, obvious, or they would be aware
of that that's missing in the curriculum. You know, that
(04:34):
is not that that's not available, And so some are
Katie is a good example. And uh, but uh, and
there are a lot of black people who did not
know that we there were enslaved people in New York
in New York State, and New York State had the
second highest number of enslaved people any other state besides
South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
And and and it goes back to your point that
one is not taught in schools and is a reason
why it's not taught in schools because when you're dealing
with colonization, you know, those who hold the power designed
the story exactly so if that's a story historically that
you don't want people to know because it just doesn't
have a good look, you know, you know, right exactly,
(05:17):
you know, then you tell a different story. And so
that's our whole curriculum has been built on telling a
different story.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That's true, a revisionist story. But then at what point
do you take responsibility and then get that monkey off
your back so that you can proceed forward? And our
Congress has not has not determined that yet.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, well it takes It takes organizations like yours, you know,
to put that information out there. It takes an extra effort.
I commented on someone's social media last night that that
I considered myself lucky to your point because my parents,
knowing that I was being educated in white institutions, you know,
(06:00):
started at seven years old. After school, I had to
go study African studies, you know. But that was something
that they were very conscious of and it's and I
think it's something a common practice, you know, within our community.
So I was so I got lucky in that respect
that it gave me some some grounding. But it takes
organizations like Celebrating the African Spirit to bring that information forward,
(06:23):
knowing that our children are not they may not be
in environments that's going to teach you the contributions that
that Africans made to this country.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And then it becomes difficult also overcoming that barrier.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Is that yes, go ahead, Kallemba, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I mean it's it's as you said, it's a deliberate omission,
and everything is very curtailed and very hard and upon whitewashed,
so that only, uh, we see the Martin Luther King
I have a dream, and that's supposed to represent black
and African American history. And by now fourteen year old grandson,
(07:06):
when he was only eight years old, said, oh, I
can tell February's over. They stopped talking about black people.
So you had your Martin Lutherkine day and your lessons
about Martin Lutherkin, and that was supposed to see it.
And never mind that here in New York State, as
Carmen was saying, we had the second largest population of
(07:28):
enslaved people in what was then the colony. And this
is something that has been withheld from the average person
of every color and was add an opportunity to learn
the history. And this is why it's so important that
the work that we're doing in especially that Carmen and
Katie are doing with the Kitsie school system, and that
(07:51):
culmin Natesan are educating the children so that the future,
in the future, they'll know about our history and about
our contribution to build in this region. The young people
today need to know about how we built the buildings,
how we planted the seats and so the crops, and
(08:14):
that's something that we're depicting literally on the marker that
we've been blessed to be able to have in Warrior's
Park with the support of the City of and their flowers.
Because as you come upon the marker, you're able to
see some of the work that enslaved people have done
to build this region, to build the Gypsie and the
(08:36):
greater what's now not just Honey Area. And so we
think that this is going to be an important point
for many many people of an opportunity to see the
marker in Warrior's Park and to also see some of
the information that we have available for them about the
illustrations on the marker and about our history Insie.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So when you say the marker, you're unveiling, yes, a
mark or a plaque in Warriors Park, which is right
in the river front and Main Street and to certify,
if not certify, document take us as a better word,
document slavery in Dutchess County. And now that day is
(09:20):
June nineteenth.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I believe June nineteenth is the dedication of the marker.
It was installed yesterday by Forced Forced State Metals who
built the structure, and so we're very fortunate that they
are local and they are very very professional and they
(09:41):
have been so wonderful and patient with us. Isaac Zal
is absolutely fabulous. But yes, they installed it yesterday on
the cement block down at Warriors Park. And we wanted
it in the park because we wanted and facing the
river because the river with such an important part in
(10:03):
the slave trade and also in those who escaped slavery.
And it's very interesting because the Hudson River technically is
an estuary. Estuaries go both ways, and that is the Hudson,
that is the Hudson River. So it's symbolic of the
slave trade coming up north and the the escaped slaves
(10:27):
going back down to the metropolitan area. So yeah, and
the energy from the river is fabulous.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And so what you're pointing out is poetry does not
only live in poet goal, it lives in history. It's
both ways, right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to finding out
a Pete and the poet Gold and I'm the poet Gold.
That we're here with Carmen McGill of CASTS which stands
for Celebrating the African Spirit and she is the co
founder along with the Catherine Height. And we're also here
with Kalema Kareem, the treasurer.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yes, and she spearheaded the project for the for the
marker for the market. That's it's her baby, all right.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
We're very honored to be able to say that, uh
to Kissie. Young people are really the driving force behind
there being U this sculpture in Maurrius Park because the
student who created the sculpture, Jason umens Ar High School graduate,
the student who illustrated the created the original illustration, uh
(11:32):
Myra Maxwell is the Pepsie High School graduates. So that
young people from the area have shown their interest in
bringing to history to life for their peers and for
the rest of us UH in the Pepsie area and
thanks to them and thanks to the additional art in
the art direction of David Long young people of color
(11:56):
have given to Kissie something that they and the appreciate
so many many years to come.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And where is absolutely right?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Where is it located with regards to you know, the
bottom main Street with.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
John Flowers, you know where the skate park is. We're
down at that end where the skate park and the
Discovery Museum. Okay, it's there was a vacant cement block
there and and it's closer to the state than the
skate park than the museum. And but anyway, that's where it's.
That's where it's located. And for our reception everything, the
(12:31):
Discovery Museum is allowing us to use the pavilion and
UH in the parking area and they're parking in addition
to the other parking.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So you're down by way the fall Kill Creek UH goes.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Into the Yes Well. And it's very interesting because the
river and the fall Kill they fight practically every day
as to whether or not the Hudson is going to
go into the fall Kill or the is going to
go into the Hudson, depending on the day how that feels.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I always think in my mind that the fall Kill Creek,
which is such a beautiful thing. That's sort of it's
a snakelike creek goes through the city of Poughkeepsie as
well as other areas, but when it empties into the
Hudson that's really the natural downtown of Poughkeepsie. The fall
(13:25):
Kill Creek in the Hudson River is where we grew
out of.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Can you tell the listeners give them specific information about
the dedication, the date, the time, so that you know
people will come and participate.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Kalima, Sure, Okay, we're delighted. The dedication is going to
be June nineteenth, June teenth, sharing at five thirty PM
at the pavilion, the outside area of the Discovery Museums,
and we're going to have refreshments and a few greetings,
and then at six thirty out in the area right
(14:02):
by the marker, we're going to have seating and going
to have the ceremony where we're going to be fortunate
to have several speakers who are going to talk about
the significance of the marker to not only Africans American
African Americans into fixties, but to everyone in the mid
Hudson area. And we're going to be blessed to hear
words by the Mayor, by poet goals, by j Henry,
(14:27):
and others who are going to give their thoughts on
the significance of that day. And we're looking forward to
the community joining with us on that day, and we're
very hopeful that we'll see many of you there actually
Discovery Museum Pavilion and at Warriors Park on Juneteenth this year,
starting at five.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Thirty p m. May I jump in and Helena, I
don't want to pick on you common, so maybe let
me pick on gold when you would say you went
to after school to African studies and African studies after school,
doctor Hamilco. Well, okay, well as you're happy with it,
(15:07):
you're smiling.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I remember that.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I remember it so well.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
But today, uh, you know, there's such an emphasis on
banning DEI, which is diversity, equity and inclusion. I mean,
so you went to g E I after school and
you want to defend that. What do you want to
(15:29):
ian it? Load it?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You know, I mean, it's it's it's fine, you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Just but why is it important in your life that
you did that?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Well?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Really, my parents, my parents did it. Our parents did yes, yes,
my parents did it. You know, because they they they
knew they wanted me to have a a viable education
that would allow me to grow in the in the
world in which we live in today. But they also
wanted me to understand our history, you know, and which
(15:58):
wasn't that far in the past ast, you know, and
what world I was I was walking into because I
be I could be confronted, you know, by by hate,
I can be confronted by racism, and to have a
twofold to go in and enriched with understanding of of
of who I am as a as a black person
living living in America, and and to be able to
(16:20):
uh navigate in those environments and also at the same
time be also be able to not be intimidated, you know,
by by others, like I have found in my journey,
very few things intimidate me. But I link that to
having an understanding of my culture and my people, you know,
(16:43):
and uh and and and a basis of knowledge of foundation.
So they wove it into my foundation.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Right, Colin, you were an educator all your life, And
do you think that what Gold's parents did is applicable
or a sensible thing to have as a general policy?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Must Okay, it's a must for for people who look
like us. My parents, I was only one of three
blacks who graduated from North High School in Binghamton, New
York at the time, and out of two hundred and
sixty three graduates. So my parents, though they prepared me,
(17:19):
every black publication came into our household and we talked,
we read it, we talked about it, and all of
those kinds of things all, you know, all the time.
So I knew who I was. And I also it
was very good because very early I learned how black
how white people function, and so you know, it's so
(17:40):
and black people learn to perform very well, very well
in order to get in order to get their point across.
And then you know, you always have to excel. You
have to do more. My mother said, you have to
do twice as much to get to to get half
as much. And so that's what So that's what I did.
(18:04):
I performed.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Kareema, do you have a perspective on this.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I think that we need to have our children feel
that they have the background in terms of the knowledge
and the fact of our contributions to civilization in the
kipside in the greater world. One of the things that
we're happy about is at a dedication, we're going to
(18:29):
be unveiling some technology that has been developed by a
young black man who's an inventor who's going to address
some of our communication needs.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And the.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Contributions in many areas, but particularly in the sciences are
something that we need to remain more aware of. We're
only starting to hear more about all the different scientific
inventions that have been created by African Americans or the
things that are part of our daily lives that were
created by African African Americans because that knowledge would hell
(19:06):
from us. So it's important that that young people have
this information so that they can have the confidence to
make their own contributions to the.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Future, right And I think that is one of that's
one of the things the struggles that we have is
overcoming that they're feeling less than because they don't know
to get rid of that so that they're open to
what they what they should know and that so that
is the that's the challenge. That is the challenge.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Kalemial and uncomon all of you refer to the you know,
the confidence that's required that you need training in it
really in order to uh make a level playing field
in terms of in America, a lot of people going
to confront sism. And one of the things that you
(20:02):
said that was so.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Interesting, Uh, if you're just tuning in, you're listening to
finding out with Pete the poet Gold and I'm the
poet Gold and we're here speaking with co founder Carmen
McGill from Celebrating the African Spirit and Kalema Kareem, the
treasurer of the organization, and Catherine Hyde is the other
co founders not with us today.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
But the point I wanted to emphasize, the common said
is the way part of your education as a black
person is to know who white people are. And my
experience is that virtually all the black people and I've
ever associated with know more about me and other white
(20:47):
people then white people know about black people. White people
are not trained to know about black people. Uh, and
you know, sort of at best, they think they're just
like us, right, whereas they don't really consider the historical
position of and everyday position of black people. So white
(21:11):
people really don't know that. As Carmon said, there's a
way in which black people are performing for they're in
control of the situation in the sense that the black
people have knowledge that the white people don't have.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
But I think that it's very important though, for us
to understand that the history of black people did not
begin four hundred years ago. That I mean, it's thousands
of years old. A lot of a lot of the
English language we use, we use words that come from
the Gulla. We use the language, the the the vegetation
(21:51):
and the plants that came over here when we were
when we were dragged here, and thousands of years of
kings and queens, tribes and so forth, that that started
most of these things, including math and science, you know.
And uh, I think find it very interesting that the
(22:12):
Dogun people of West Africa were able to thousands of
years ago, we're able to see to map out all
of the sky with the naked eye, uh, you know,
And so that also illustrates the de and that's documented,
and that's also illustrates the deterioration of the of the
human census since then because we don't we can't do that,
(22:36):
We can't do that anymore. And so the Dogun people,
I find are absolutely fascinating. I'm going on a trip
to Africa in September, and I hope to be able
to to meet with them.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's part of celebrating the African spiritual which you so
your organizations not only reminding us about the history of
Leutrs County in America, of having slavery is an important
part of our history, but to celebrate the broad magnificence
of the African spirit that we see in history as
(23:08):
well as in American culture is right to a large extent,
determined by Black culture.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Absolutely, Clem, I have a question for you that and
I often ask people what brought you to this work?
What brought you to the vision of as Carmen had
pointed out, having the monument, the dedication, what is it
that brought you to this space.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I have four grandchildren, and I did not want to
pass into the next phase of my journey and have
life for black people be the same or no better
for them than it was for me. I have a
beautiful daughter who has so many talents and who I
(23:54):
wanted to have more opportunities than I have, and whom
I want in the world to I want the world
to view her and her children differently than the world
to view me viewed me. And so change is necessary,
and a lot of education is necessary in order for
the people I love to live in a better world
(24:14):
than I've lived in.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Yes, and DEI, no matter what happens, DEI is out
of the bottle. Okay, no matter what happens. Banned books,
you can ban all the books you want, but the
genies out of the bottle, now, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
So.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
I mean there are just so many public different types
of publications and everything that are available to all anybody
who is interested and wants to hear.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I always wondering it's probably a joke. And people who
are against THEI, I wonder what part of that they're against?
Are they against diversity? Are they against?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I think they're against diversity and so forth. But you
wouldn't have to have DEI. He didn't have racism right, right,
and half exactly what you wouldn't need d E right
and the lesson.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I'm sorry. Until six months ago, nobody, virtually nobody would
admit they're against diversity. They just you know, their line
would be, well, we don't want, you know, special emphasis on.
But I'm for diversity. But you're right, I think against.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
And I think that the whole DEI topic. Certainly because
of social media, people have gotten an education but a
lot of folks didn't realize how they benefited. When they
thought of DEI, they thought about black people. They think
about anyone else, anything about women, anything about disabled, you know,
they didn't think about white women. One of the one
of the largest benefits of DEI. It was really going
(25:43):
back to the racism. It was DEI black people getting
special treatment. And then as the genie came out the
box social media education, folks were like, well, well, wait
a minute, my handicapped child is what do you mean
I mean, that's not de I. Well, why am I
losing my job as the white woman? Well, that's not
the I. I got my job, quote unquote, fair and square. Well, no,
you got your job because the way the construct has
(26:05):
been designed has been designed for white men, exactly right.
And so so everybody outside of that is de I.
In in the workplace, everyone is de I. You know so, I'm.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
But it's okay, you've had all these you've had all
these years of freedom. Now it's not.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
You know so so and it's and it's not I mean,
from my perspective, it's not a becoming getting an education
in all of this, getting an education in black history.
It's not from a place of hate, you know. And
and I think sometimes there's a there's confusion if I
if I know about me, that means I must hate
you or I must find something to dislike about you.
(26:52):
And and it's it's not it's that's not what it's
it's about. It's about being the evolved human being.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
And you and you appreciating your own culture. I mean,
this is why, uh, some some people we know send
their children for for Chinese lessons on Saturday so they
understand their their own uh, you know, ethnic history through language.
This is why some people take lessons in Jewish history.
(27:19):
This is why everyone wants their uh, their children to
appreciate their history and who they are and where they
come from. This is a natural human condition.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Right right, And it's not only a human conditions in
American condition. In other words, we love being Americans and
we also love our own heritage. I mean, I went
to old Catholic school, so I didn't go to Catholic
after school. I went to Catholic school. Like from the
moment you wake up in the morning, he could have
been I mean, I always I was brought up by
(27:52):
the Catholic Taliban, you know. I mean we really went
all out. But uh yeah, so we want to embrace
who we are.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
To absolutely, that's all of us have so much to contribute,
but some of us it's not allowed, you know. It's
it's very difficult sometimes to enter to enter the room.
And that's why we have to have your own room,
you know, or your own table, you know, for people
(28:26):
to sit down. And everybody is welcome to the table.
Who wants to come to the table. In the black
with in the black community, in the black culture, it's
not it's not the same. And a lot of white
folks think that, well, if if we give all the
liberties to black folks that we have, then then they
will try to do the same thing to to us
(28:49):
that that we did to that and and and that's
that's that's a part, that's a part of a psychological issue.
Psychological but you're still go get tans, you still go
get tans.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Absolutely live about a minute.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And going back to the river, I mean, one of
the things that is going to be going forward now
compared to the rest of the history of Poughkeepsie, we're recognizing, embracing,
embracing and facing the truth of slavery in Duchess County
and celebrating the African spirit has brought that to us.
(29:28):
It's called education.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Absolutely, we grow, we grow, and we grow. So Carmen,
thank you for being here. Kalema, thank you so much.
In the work that the three of you have done
and others with this project is commendable. So it's the nineteenth,
is that correct again?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Thursday the nineteenth, five thirty to eight pm. You know,
there will be a little reception in Mingling in the
beginning for the first a half hour forty five minutes,
and then we will have the whole dedication project. But
the the monument stands now. It's there now, so if
you're curious and you want to go down and see it,
(30:07):
by all means and give us whatever critiques. There are
few other things we're waiting for, some signage. We don't
have that yet, but we will have it well by
that date.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I saw a couple of the pictures and it looks
stunning and I can't wait to be present and see
it up close.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
And personally was helpful and Mayor Flowers and the Common
Council have been wonderful. But Mayor Flowers, even when she
was fifth ward council person. She she she was on our,
she was on our and helped it all along.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Once again, thank you so much for listening to finding
out and Pete and the Poe Wull Go. We appreciate you,
and once again, thank you for being annoying.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Thank you
The views and opinions expressed in the following programmer those
of the speaker and don't necessarily represent those of the
station it's staff, management or ownership.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Good morning, you'll find out with Pete and Poet Cold.
I'm Peter Leonard and I'm the poet Gold and we're
on the this morning with people from Cash which stands
we're celebrating the African spirit. And the people we are
going to be speaking with today is Khalema Kareem, the
treasury of the organization and the co founder Calmen Negil.
And before we get to Calmen and Kalima, we're going
(00:31):
to go right through the Poe Cold for her weekly
poem prayer incantation Gold, please let it roll.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I'm going to be doing another poem out of my
upcoming book. From the book is titled Be the Poem
Living Beyond Our Fears. Black boys dance. I love watching
black boys dance. Black men dance. I love watching black
men dance. The contour of their bodies upright, curve, disjointed,
aligned feet, moving fast and slow, then slow, then fast, glide.
(01:00):
They got to glow. They gotta glow. I shed tears,
I laugh, I smile, my eyes twinkle and gleam, knowing
for that moment they are truly free dance. Black boy dance,
black men dance as Shay.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
And you know, that's the first time I heard that
poem read. I read the poem and the word that
really moved me was the word God. And then when
you performed it, you read it right now, God really
works in that poem. Goal and that poem celebrates the
African spirit and calm. Maybe you could give us a
(01:42):
sense of what cast is about you celebrating the African spirit,
how it thoughted and you know what's going on with
you guys.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
Okay, Catherine Height, who's a professor at Vassar College and
myself we met through a mutual friend.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Uh he was.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
She gave him a presentation that the student had made,
and the last paragraph of the presentation was that because
of the Livingston slaves in Dutchess County, that the people
of Poughkeepsie need to experiment and need to find out
research to see whether see what you can find about
(02:27):
those people who did the work.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
And uh uh, I'm going to interrupt you right away
when you say the Livingston slaves, you want to explain that.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Yes, the Livingston family in Dutchess County owned more enslaved
people than anybody else in Dutchess County, and all around
the Hudson Valley, you know, in Sullivan County there's Livingston
manor the Livingston evidence all over the all over the
Hudson Valley area.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
So you wanted to make that.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Right, No, So the last paragraph of her presentation was, well,
the people at Poughkeepsie need to find out what happened
to these people because there's no evidence that they existed
at all, and it's not taught in the schools. And
so the Black History Project Committee, of which I was
the chair, we said, that's so obvious. Wow, you know,
(03:23):
we should definitely do that, you know. And so that's
how the Black History Project Committee morphed into They had
a baby, and the baby became celebrating the African spirit,
and that's how I met Katie Heyde.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Okay, And you know, I like when you say it
just seems so obvious, you know, But believe me, if
you're a white middle class person like me, it's not
obvious because it's hidden. You know, I didn't know that.
I mean, you guys are going out of your way
to teach it to the whole community is a big
(03:59):
deal because it's not obvious to anybody but you but yourselves,
and you're you're making it part of what it means
to be in the Hudson Valley is to know something
about your history and that we had a lot of
slaves here, right.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And it depends on I guess it depends on the
perspective of those people who are other than than black
or brown as to whether or not such a thing
would be, you know, obvious, or they would be aware
of that that's missing in the curriculum. You know, that
(04:34):
is not that that's not available, And so some are
Katie is a good example. And uh, but uh, and
there are a lot of black people who did not
know that we there were enslaved people in New York
in New York State, and New York State had the
second highest number of enslaved people any other state besides
South Carolina.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
And and and it goes back to your point that
one is not taught in schools and is a reason
why it's not taught in schools because when you're dealing
with colonization, you know, those who hold the power designed
the story exactly so if that's a story historically that
you don't want people to know because it just doesn't
have a good look, you know, you know, right exactly,
(05:17):
you know, then you tell a different story. And so
that's our whole curriculum has been built on telling a
different story.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That's true, a revisionist story. But then at what point
do you take responsibility and then get that monkey off
your back so that you can proceed forward? And our
Congress has not has not determined that yet.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, well it takes It takes organizations like yours, you know,
to put that information out there. It takes an extra effort.
I commented on someone's social media last night that that
I considered myself lucky to your point because my parents,
knowing that I was being educated in white institutions, you know,
(06:00):
started at seven years old. After school, I had to
go study African studies, you know. But that was something
that they were very conscious of and it's and I
think it's something a common practice, you know, within our community.
So I was so I got lucky in that respect
that it gave me some some grounding. But it takes
organizations like Celebrating the African Spirit to bring that information forward,
(06:23):
knowing that our children are not they may not be
in environments that's going to teach you the contributions that
that Africans made to this country.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
And then it becomes difficult also overcoming that barrier.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Is that yes, go ahead, Kallemba, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:43):
I mean it's it's as you said, it's a deliberate omission,
and everything is very curtailed and very hard and upon whitewashed,
so that only, uh, we see the Martin Luther King
I have a dream, and that's supposed to represent black
and African American history. And by now fourteen year old grandson,
(07:06):
when he was only eight years old, said, oh, I
can tell February's over. They stopped talking about black people.
So you had your Martin Lutherkine day and your lessons
about Martin Lutherkin, and that was supposed to see it.
And never mind that here in New York State, as
Carmen was saying, we had the second largest population of
(07:28):
enslaved people in what was then the colony. And this
is something that has been withheld from the average person
of every color and was add an opportunity to learn
the history. And this is why it's so important that
the work that we're doing in especially that Carmen and
Katie are doing with the Kitsie school system, and that
(07:51):
culmin Natesan are educating the children so that the future,
in the future, they'll know about our history and about
our contribution to build in this region. The young people
today need to know about how we built the buildings,
how we planted the seats and so the crops, and
(08:14):
that's something that we're depicting literally on the marker that
we've been blessed to be able to have in Warrior's
Park with the support of the City of and their flowers.
Because as you come upon the marker, you're able to
see some of the work that enslaved people have done
to build this region, to build the Gypsie and the
(08:36):
greater what's now not just Honey Area. And so we
think that this is going to be an important point
for many many people of an opportunity to see the
marker in Warrior's Park and to also see some of
the information that we have available for them about the
illustrations on the marker and about our history Insie.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
So when you say the marker, you're unveiling, yes, a
mark or a plaque in Warriors Park, which is right
in the river front and Main Street and to certify,
if not certify, document take us as a better word,
document slavery in Dutchess County. And now that day is
(09:20):
June nineteenth.
Speaker 3 (09:21):
I believe June nineteenth is the dedication of the marker.
It was installed yesterday by Forced Forced State Metals who
built the structure, and so we're very fortunate that they
are local and they are very very professional and they
(09:41):
have been so wonderful and patient with us. Isaac Zal
is absolutely fabulous. But yes, they installed it yesterday on
the cement block down at Warriors Park. And we wanted
it in the park because we wanted and facing the
river because the river with such an important part in
(10:03):
the slave trade and also in those who escaped slavery.
And it's very interesting because the Hudson River technically is
an estuary. Estuaries go both ways, and that is the Hudson,
that is the Hudson River. So it's symbolic of the
slave trade coming up north and the the escaped slaves
(10:27):
going back down to the metropolitan area. So yeah, and
the energy from the river is fabulous.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
And so what you're pointing out is poetry does not
only live in poet goal, it lives in history. It's
both ways, right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
If you're just tuning in, you're listening to finding out
a Pete and the poet Gold and I'm the poet Gold.
That we're here with Carmen McGill of CASTS which stands
for Celebrating the African Spirit and she is the co
founder along with the Catherine Height. And we're also here
with Kalema Kareem, the treasurer.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yes, and she spearheaded the project for the for the
marker for the market. That's it's her baby, all right.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
We're very honored to be able to say that, uh
to Kissie. Young people are really the driving force behind
there being U this sculpture in Maurrius Park because the
student who created the sculpture, Jason umens Ar High School graduate,
the student who illustrated the created the original illustration, uh
(11:32):
Myra Maxwell is the Pepsie High School graduates. So that
young people from the area have shown their interest in
bringing to history to life for their peers and for
the rest of us UH in the Pepsie area and
thanks to them and thanks to the additional art in
the art direction of David Long young people of color
(11:56):
have given to Kissie something that they and the appreciate
so many many years to come.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
And where is absolutely right?
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Where is it located with regards to you know, the
bottom main Street with.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
John Flowers, you know where the skate park is. We're
down at that end where the skate park and the
Discovery Museum. Okay, it's there was a vacant cement block
there and and it's closer to the state than the
skate park than the museum. And but anyway, that's where it's.
That's where it's located. And for our reception everything, the
(12:31):
Discovery Museum is allowing us to use the pavilion and
UH in the parking area and they're parking in addition
to the other parking.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
So you're down by way the fall Kill Creek UH goes.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Into the Yes Well. And it's very interesting because the
river and the fall Kill they fight practically every day
as to whether or not the Hudson is going to
go into the fall Kill or the is going to
go into the Hudson, depending on the day how that feels.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I always think in my mind that the fall Kill Creek,
which is such a beautiful thing. That's sort of it's
a snakelike creek goes through the city of Poughkeepsie as
well as other areas, but when it empties into the
Hudson that's really the natural downtown of Poughkeepsie. The fall
(13:25):
Kill Creek in the Hudson River is where we grew
out of.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Can you tell the listeners give them specific information about
the dedication, the date, the time, so that you know
people will come and participate.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Kalima, Sure, Okay, we're delighted. The dedication is going to
be June nineteenth, June teenth, sharing at five thirty PM
at the pavilion, the outside area of the Discovery Museums,
and we're going to have refreshments and a few greetings,
and then at six thirty out in the area right
(14:02):
by the marker, we're going to have seating and going
to have the ceremony where we're going to be fortunate
to have several speakers who are going to talk about
the significance of the marker to not only Africans American
African Americans into fixties, but to everyone in the mid
Hudson area. And we're going to be blessed to hear
words by the Mayor, by poet goals, by j Henry,
(14:27):
and others who are going to give their thoughts on
the significance of that day. And we're looking forward to
the community joining with us on that day, and we're
very hopeful that we'll see many of you there actually
Discovery Museum Pavilion and at Warriors Park on Juneteenth this year,
starting at five.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Thirty p m. May I jump in and Helena, I
don't want to pick on you common, so maybe let
me pick on gold when you would say you went
to after school to African studies and African studies after school,
doctor Hamilco. Well, okay, well as you're happy with it,
(15:07):
you're smiling.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
I remember that.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
I remember it so well.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
But today, uh, you know, there's such an emphasis on
banning DEI, which is diversity, equity and inclusion. I mean,
so you went to g E I after school and
you want to defend that. What do you want to
(15:29):
ian it? Load it?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You know, I mean, it's it's it's fine, you know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Just but why is it important in your life that
you did that?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
Well?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Really, my parents, my parents did it. Our parents did yes, yes,
my parents did it. You know, because they they they
knew they wanted me to have a a viable education
that would allow me to grow in the in the
world in which we live in today. But they also
wanted me to understand our history, you know, and which
(15:58):
wasn't that far in the past ast, you know, and
what world I was I was walking into because I
be I could be confronted, you know, by by hate,
I can be confronted by racism, and to have a
twofold to go in and enriched with understanding of of
of who I am as a as a black person
living living in America, and and to be able to
(16:20):
uh navigate in those environments and also at the same
time be also be able to not be intimidated, you know,
by by others, like I have found in my journey,
very few things intimidate me. But I link that to
having an understanding of my culture and my people, you know,
(16:43):
and uh and and and a basis of knowledge of foundation.
So they wove it into my foundation.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Right, Colin, you were an educator all your life, And
do you think that what Gold's parents did is applicable
or a sensible thing to have as a general policy?
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Must Okay, it's a must for for people who look
like us. My parents, I was only one of three
blacks who graduated from North High School in Binghamton, New
York at the time, and out of two hundred and
sixty three graduates. So my parents, though they prepared me,
(17:19):
every black publication came into our household and we talked,
we read it, we talked about it, and all of
those kinds of things all, you know, all the time.
So I knew who I was. And I also it
was very good because very early I learned how black
how white people function, and so you know, it's so
(17:40):
and black people learn to perform very well, very well
in order to get in order to get their point across.
And then you know, you always have to excel. You
have to do more. My mother said, you have to
do twice as much to get to to get half
as much. And so that's what So that's what I did.
(18:04):
I performed.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Kareema, do you have a perspective on this.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I think that we need to have our children feel
that they have the background in terms of the knowledge
and the fact of our contributions to civilization in the
kipside in the greater world. One of the things that
we're happy about is at a dedication, we're going to
(18:29):
be unveiling some technology that has been developed by a
young black man who's an inventor who's going to address
some of our communication needs.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And the.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
Contributions in many areas, but particularly in the sciences are
something that we need to remain more aware of. We're
only starting to hear more about all the different scientific
inventions that have been created by African Americans or the
things that are part of our daily lives that were
created by African African Americans because that knowledge would hell
(19:06):
from us. So it's important that that young people have
this information so that they can have the confidence to
make their own contributions to the.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
Future, right And I think that is one of that's
one of the things the struggles that we have is
overcoming that they're feeling less than because they don't know
to get rid of that so that they're open to
what they what they should know and that so that
is the that's the challenge. That is the challenge.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Kalemial and uncomon all of you refer to the you know,
the confidence that's required that you need training in it
really in order to uh make a level playing field
in terms of in America, a lot of people going
to confront sism. And one of the things that you
(20:02):
said that was so.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Interesting, Uh, if you're just tuning in, you're listening to
finding out with Pete the poet Gold and I'm the
poet Gold and we're here speaking with co founder Carmen
McGill from Celebrating the African Spirit and Kalema Kareem, the
treasurer of the organization, and Catherine Hyde is the other
co founders not with us today.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
But the point I wanted to emphasize, the common said
is the way part of your education as a black
person is to know who white people are. And my
experience is that virtually all the black people and I've
ever associated with know more about me and other white
(20:47):
people then white people know about black people. White people
are not trained to know about black people. Uh, and
you know, sort of at best, they think they're just
like us, right, whereas they don't really consider the historical
position of and everyday position of black people. So white
(21:11):
people really don't know that. As Carmon said, there's a
way in which black people are performing for they're in
control of the situation in the sense that the black
people have knowledge that the white people don't have.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
But I think that it's very important though, for us
to understand that the history of black people did not
begin four hundred years ago. That I mean, it's thousands
of years old. A lot of a lot of the
English language we use, we use words that come from
the Gulla. We use the language, the the the vegetation
(21:51):
and the plants that came over here when we were
when we were dragged here, and thousands of years of
kings and queens, tribes and so forth, that that started
most of these things, including math and science, you know.
And uh, I think find it very interesting that the
(22:12):
Dogun people of West Africa were able to thousands of
years ago, we're able to see to map out all
of the sky with the naked eye, uh, you know,
And so that also illustrates the de and that's documented,
and that's also illustrates the deterioration of the of the
human census since then because we don't we can't do that,
(22:36):
We can't do that anymore. And so the Dogun people,
I find are absolutely fascinating. I'm going on a trip
to Africa in September, and I hope to be able
to to meet with them.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's part of celebrating the African spiritual which you so
your organizations not only reminding us about the history of
Leutrs County in America, of having slavery is an important
part of our history, but to celebrate the broad magnificence
of the African spirit that we see in history as
(23:08):
well as in American culture is right to a large extent,
determined by Black culture.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Absolutely, Clem, I have a question for you that and
I often ask people what brought you to this work?
What brought you to the vision of as Carmen had
pointed out, having the monument, the dedication, what is it
that brought you to this space.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I have four grandchildren, and I did not want to
pass into the next phase of my journey and have
life for black people be the same or no better
for them than it was for me. I have a
beautiful daughter who has so many talents and who I
(23:54):
wanted to have more opportunities than I have, and whom
I want in the world to I want the world
to view her and her children differently than the world
to view me viewed me. And so change is necessary,
and a lot of education is necessary in order for
the people I love to live in a better world
(24:14):
than I've lived in.
Speaker 3 (24:17):
Yes, and DEI, no matter what happens, DEI is out
of the bottle. Okay, no matter what happens. Banned books,
you can ban all the books you want, but the
genies out of the bottle, now, you know.
Speaker 4 (24:32):
So.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
I mean there are just so many public different types
of publications and everything that are available to all anybody
who is interested and wants to hear.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
I always wondering it's probably a joke. And people who
are against THEI, I wonder what part of that they're against?
Are they against diversity? Are they against?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
I think they're against diversity and so forth. But you
wouldn't have to have DEI. He didn't have racism right, right,
and half exactly what you wouldn't need d E right
and the lesson.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
I'm sorry. Until six months ago, nobody, virtually nobody would
admit they're against diversity. They just you know, their line
would be, well, we don't want, you know, special emphasis on.
But I'm for diversity. But you're right, I think against.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
And I think that the whole DEI topic. Certainly because
of social media, people have gotten an education but a
lot of folks didn't realize how they benefited. When they
thought of DEI, they thought about black people. They think
about anyone else, anything about women, anything about disabled, you know,
they didn't think about white women. One of the one
of the largest benefits of DEI. It was really going
(25:43):
back to the racism. It was DEI black people getting
special treatment. And then as the genie came out the
box social media education, folks were like, well, well, wait
a minute, my handicapped child is what do you mean
I mean, that's not de I. Well, why am I
losing my job as the white woman? Well, that's not
the I. I got my job, quote unquote, fair and square. Well, no,
you got your job because the way the construct has
(26:05):
been designed has been designed for white men, exactly right.
And so so everybody outside of that is de I.
In in the workplace, everyone is de I. You know so, I'm.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
But it's okay, you've had all these you've had all
these years of freedom. Now it's not.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
You know so so and it's and it's not I mean,
from my perspective, it's not a becoming getting an education
in all of this, getting an education in black history.
It's not from a place of hate, you know. And
and I think sometimes there's a there's confusion if I
if I know about me, that means I must hate
you or I must find something to dislike about you.
(26:52):
And and it's it's not it's that's not what it's
it's about. It's about being the evolved human being.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
And you and you appreciating your own culture. I mean,
this is why, uh, some some people we know send
their children for for Chinese lessons on Saturday so they
understand their their own uh, you know, ethnic history through language.
This is why some people take lessons in Jewish history.
(27:19):
This is why everyone wants their uh, their children to
appreciate their history and who they are and where they
come from. This is a natural human condition.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Right right, And it's not only a human conditions in
American condition. In other words, we love being Americans and
we also love our own heritage. I mean, I went
to old Catholic school, so I didn't go to Catholic
after school. I went to Catholic school. Like from the
moment you wake up in the morning, he could have
been I mean, I always I was brought up by
(27:52):
the Catholic Taliban, you know. I mean we really went
all out. But uh yeah, so we want to embrace
who we are.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
To absolutely, that's all of us have so much to contribute,
but some of us it's not allowed, you know. It's
it's very difficult sometimes to enter to enter the room.
And that's why we have to have your own room,
you know, or your own table, you know, for people
(28:26):
to sit down. And everybody is welcome to the table.
Who wants to come to the table. In the black
with in the black community, in the black culture, it's
not it's not the same. And a lot of white
folks think that, well, if if we give all the
liberties to black folks that we have, then then they
will try to do the same thing to to us
(28:49):
that that we did to that and and and that's
that's that's a part, that's a part of a psychological issue.
Psychological but you're still go get tans, you still go
get tans.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
Absolutely live about a minute.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
And going back to the river, I mean, one of
the things that is going to be going forward now
compared to the rest of the history of Poughkeepsie, we're recognizing, embracing,
embracing and facing the truth of slavery in Duchess County
and celebrating the African spirit has brought that to us.
(29:28):
It's called education.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Absolutely, we grow, we grow, and we grow. So Carmen,
thank you for being here. Kalema, thank you so much.
In the work that the three of you have done
and others with this project is commendable. So it's the nineteenth,
is that correct again?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Thursday the nineteenth, five thirty to eight pm. You know,
there will be a little reception in Mingling in the
beginning for the first a half hour forty five minutes,
and then we will have the whole dedication project. But
the the monument stands now. It's there now, so if
you're curious and you want to go down and see it,
(30:07):
by all means and give us whatever critiques. There are
few other things we're waiting for, some signage. We don't
have that yet, but we will have it well by
that date.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
I saw a couple of the pictures and it looks
stunning and I can't wait to be present and see
it up close.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
And personally was helpful and Mayor Flowers and the Common
Council have been wonderful. But Mayor Flowers, even when she
was fifth ward council person. She she she was on our,
she was on our and helped it all along.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
Once again, thank you so much for listening to finding
out and Pete and the Poe Wull Go. We appreciate you,
and once again, thank you for being annoying.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Thank you
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History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.