May 12, 2023 • 44 mins
It's Legend of Zelda: Tears Of The Kingdom Day! Jason goes over reviews for the latest Zelda game, then he tackles the "classic vs modern" Zelda debate before ending with his thoughts on the best entry point for non-Zelda fans to enter the franchise.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:26):
Hello, and welcome to episode numberone thirty one of The Cheese Steaks,
a controller's podcast presented by Fox PHL, The Gambler one or two point five
FM, fourteen eighty AM and IHeart Radio. This is Jason Vanella.
You know, I've been a raway for a bit, not gonna lie.
Went through a bit of a monthhiatus. There had my show that
went on Mary Poppins at St.Francis over in Springfield. That was a
(00:47):
good couple of weeks. Then Icame down with a bit of a cold.
Sounded like dust for a little bit. Probably still will. Maybe I
might sneak in here, might seehere. I feel a little you know,
weird voice stuff happening, just youknow, try to ignore it.
Sorry about that, but I hadto record something. I had to come
back this week, and the reasonfor that is because it's Zelda week.
(01:12):
Yep. Zelda Tears of the Kingdomhas released today. As you're listening to
this, my version is probably downloadingon my switch as you hear this.
I'm not sure when I want tobe able to jump in myself. I
did not review it was not partof the initial reviews of although if you
(01:32):
want to check those out. Ihope you like the number ten because there
were a lot of them, andwe'll get into that. We will start
the episode with the what the criticsare saying about Tiers of the Kingdom,
and then I want to move intomore discussion about how to get into Zelda,
classic Zelda versus modern Zelda, becauseevery time I feel like a new
(01:53):
Zelda comes out of this debate startsup again about the classic version versus the
new way to play, and kindof gauge you know, what Zelda is
now or what it's going to be. And then finally we'll start with the
best entry point for new Zelda playersis that this new game should you try
something different, I mean there forall of Nintendo's wacky like shop preservations sort
(02:20):
of things, most if not all, of the Zelda games are available to
you right now, I think,with some exceptions. So um, we'll
go through what would be the bestone to start with if you were getting
into Zelda for the first time atthe end of the episode. But first
let's start with that review round upfour Tiers of the Kingdom and whole Boy,
(02:46):
is this game really impressing people?Ninety seven average on open Critic,
which is just absolutely absurd. Thehighest rated game ever on the platform,
which is saying something considering elden Ringwas last year and probably was the previously
(03:10):
highest rated before that. Thanks toDarren Bontas over at game Spot, he
provided a very good review round up, and we're going to go through a
couple of the more choice quotes,plus some things that I was seeing on
Twitter from folks who had reviewed thegame. So let's start with that.
Game Spot. Their reviewer was alsoten out of ten. Steve Watts quote
(03:36):
here is Tears of the Kingdom isa canvas for your own creativity, a
book to write your own stories,a world to create your own legends.
It gives you back as much asyou put into it and beckons you to
soar borrow, engineer, solve,adventure, and explore. And that seems
to be right off the jump.The big takeaway from all of these reviews
(03:58):
is the freedom that this game givesyou, even more so than what Breath
of the Wild gave you. Someonesaid in their review, I want to
say it was Igenne tom Marks.He said that Breath of the Wild some
areas felt unfinished or they didn't likethey didn't get their full creative vision all
(04:21):
the way through. But now playingTiers of the Kingdom, the entire game
looks like a rough draft, andthat to me was eye opening. Look
I'm not naive, I'm not.This is my first rodeo. I did
not expect Tears of the Kingdom tocome out and be panned or like a
Red Fall situation, no offense toRed Fall. I did not expect people
(04:45):
to hate it. Did I expectpeople to like it this much? No,
Honestly, I really thought that basedon what I was seeing, it
was just you know, I don'twant to say Breath the Wild one point
five, because there was definitely moreto do, like the sky the sky
islands and building things and stuff likethat. So I want to say that
(05:09):
it wasn't just derivative or just smalliterations. But I also didn't think it
was going to be different enough toreally get people's eyes opening like this.
But man, I was wrong.And then Tom Marx in his IgM review,
he continues that the game is anunfathomable follow up to one of the
greatest games ever made, somehow improvingupon it nearly every way, be that
(05:31):
with simple quality of life improvements,a genuinely exciting story which we'll get to,
or wildly creative new building mechanics thatmake you rethink what is possible.
That is some high praise there fromTom Marks. And speaking of the story,
it seems that Gannendorff, his absencein the first game, is heavily
(05:53):
remedied in this one. Someone's sayingthat in comparison to the lad game,
he's back and he's chatty, whichI'm fine with. I feel that the
first game, that wonder of notknowing what the overall villain, what to
expect from the overall villain, andthat feeling of you know it fitting in
(06:16):
with the rest of the game,where the entire game was a curiosity,
including the main malevolent force, andyou don't see it until the very end
or whenever you decide to take onhigh roll Castle. I appreciated that,
But here bringing him in and makinghim more of a major part of the
(06:38):
story, it sounds like it wasthe right call not to mention Giant Samurai
Daddy that he is. But Ilike that he's back. I like that
he has a more prevalent part ofthe story, or more of focus in
the story at least it sounds like. And then again the word I say,
the word focus, But in agame like this, the word focus,
(07:02):
I guess doesn't really apply because it'sso open ended. I was reading
times another GameSpot article how Long toBeat Tiers of the Kingdom, said that
fifty hours is probably a minimum,right. If you just do the story
things, you're going to be inthis game for a long time, and
if you want to complete everything,you're looking at one hundred plus hours.
(07:26):
So saying that anything is a focusis a bit of a misnowhere because you
can't really focus on anything other thanwhatever you decide to do when you first
turn the game on. In thatmoment, little chunks of the story a
side quest here, a discovery there, that's what you're focusing on. Obviously,
when you get back to the mainstory beats, you can talk about
(07:46):
the main players like Ganad Orphan,Lincoln Zell are there, but it's not
really You can't really say that thisgame is focused because it's so open,
it's so much to do. Atleast based on the reviews that I've been
reading, Jordan Midler from VGC anotherten out of ten says the game reinterprets
(08:07):
Breath of the Wild for the better. Instead of removing all the aches and
pains of that game, it completesthe circle by adding gameplay based solutions to
annoyances and encouraging you to let yourimagination run free. Easily one of the
very best games on the Switch again, freedom, imagination. Words that are
(08:28):
going to be coming up, butbig one here is not removing the aches
and pains of the old game,but completing the circle. So instead of
taking away breakable weapons, they justallowed you to make weapons out of anything.
That was one of the coolest partsof that one reveal from about a
month ago, I would say maybea little more where they were creating bomb
(08:50):
arrows on the fly or creating weaponsby sticking two items together right then and
there. That I think is hugefor this game. I think it's going
to be one of the biggest partsof the entire game is seeing people experiment
with different ways to take on enemiesusing just what's around them. There's a
very primal survival sort of feeling tothat that I imagine is a big part
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of what's making this game feel sogood for the folks that are playing it.
I am very very excited to diginto myself. But reading these ten
out of ten reviews, I've definitelygiven me some sparks on what I want
to do when I first start.Another one from inverse another ten out of
ten. This is Hayes Madison.The game is so much more than a
sequel, total reimagining. There's thatwording in of what Nintendo did with Breath
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of the Wild in twenty seventeen.There are still some minor quibbles like cooking
and clumsy horse controls, but allthat pales in the face of the many,
many things this game does write andI do not like to hear about
the clumsy horse controls. That wasa problem that I had in the last
game. But there is a horserelated thing that I saw from kind of
(10:00):
Funny on YouTube. They do those. They had a short from Blessing Blessing
Junior who that's not his name,is a Blessing Junior from Blessing who said
that one of the coolest things aboutthis game is that he went to the
stable in Tears of the Kingdom forthe first time and all of the horses
(10:22):
that he had raised in the oldgame were still there. So it takes
the hole having to train a horsething right out of the equation. I
love that that's one less tedious taskI have to do, allowing me to
jump right back into exploration of theentire world. Yes, please, that's
fantastic. More of that, please, But yeah, I'm not excited to
(10:48):
expect this to be completely without quibbles, but it sounds like if cooking and
horse controls are it, I thinkwe're in a pretty good spot. Nintendo
Life also ten out of ten,a glorious triumphant sequels one of the best
games of all time, unfiltered blissto lose yourself in for hundreds of hours.
We can't wait to see what theworld will do with the game,
and that, Yeah, that isone thing that I am now that the
(11:09):
game is out in the public.I am excited to see again going to
the experimentation of the weapons and stufflike that, what players decide to do
in this high fantasy sandbox essentially thatthey've been given to build or to you
know, the way they approach battlesor puzzles or things like that. I
(11:30):
had already seen in some gameplay.I think it was game spots gameplay.
Actually, they built this massive likeflying raft with guns laser guns for lack
of a better term, underneath it, and they flew it to a sky
island with a bunch of enemies,and and that raft took out most of
them, and then he jumped downand slashed the rest of them. It
(11:50):
was very Star Wars esque, butin Zelda and that that really piqued my
interest. I am curious to seewhat goes on there. So here's one
that is not a perfect score.It is nine point seven five out of
ten from Game Informer. It mightas well be a perfect score from Kyle
Hilliard, good fella friend of theshow. To Doc get the same goosebumps
(12:11):
exploring High Rule as I did inthe past, but I did experience new
emotions, both a granular level fromsolving individual puzzles and on a larger scale
by going back to one of myfavorite video game locations. They say you
can never go home again, butI adored returning to High Rule with all
new tools that I can get behindthat. I imagine that's something I'm going
(12:35):
to have to feel for myself onceI start my playthrough. But hearing that,
you know, it still invokes thosesort of reactions or emotions after spending
dozens of hours in the world inthe first game, and now coming back
to spend dozens of hours more.The fact that it's still can elicit those
feelings out of players is very good. Games Radar with a four and a
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half out of five game builds onwhat breadth of the Wild previously we've heard
that already, and with a platformlike that to work on, the result
can't help but be fantastic that withthe occasional hiccup and execution, the end
result is a game as broad asit is deep, and something that comfortably
justifies the six year weight and thenthe final one. Here you're a game
(13:16):
or four out of five stars andastonishing quite literally top the bottom se equal
adding complexity and splendor to the formulawithout sacrificing its enchantment. I wonder if
Edwin Evans Thirwell is a magic theGathering player with a phrase like sacrificing the
enchantment. But yeah, so,Zelda, good y'all. I mean,
if I could really sum this upin three words, Zelda, good y'all,
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there are some caveats obviously, ifyou did. If Beth of the
Wild wasn't your jam this may notbe your jam either. There are still
some things from the previous game thatannoyed people that are still here, like
the weapons grading, the grading system, and the aforementioned horse controls and cooking
and things like that. But itsounds like these are minor squabbles or minors
(14:03):
what is the word I'm looking for, minor complaints. Let's just say,
in the grand scheme of the entiregame, and I'm thinking that even problems
of before are lessened based on thedecisions that they made here, as described
earlier in one of the other reviews. So yes, the media gaming media
(14:24):
world was enamored with this one.Reviews were absolutely bonkers. Ninety seven percent
top critic average on the tiers ofthe Open Critic four Tiers of the Kingdom.
Not a surprise that it's reviewing well, but it is a surprise that
it's reviewing this well, if thatmakes sense. Moving, so, let's
(14:46):
go to the top five on OpenCritic for twenty twenty three. So far,
Tiers of the Kingdom takes the firstspot. Resideval four remake is second
at ninety two, the surprise HiFi Rush coming in and number three with
an eighty nine Vernal Edge, whichis a console RPG, only has six
(15:07):
reviews, but it's reviewing it ineighty eight, so I wonder if just
more people have to review that onecassette Beasts, which came out of nowhere
and is apparently phenomenal at eighty six, Theorism Final bar Line also at eighty
six, Optopath Traveler two, eightyfive, Star Wars Jedi Survivor also eighty
five, The Space for the Spacefor the Unbound and excellent indie adventure title
(15:31):
from Mokagin Studios at eighty five,and then Hogwarts Legacy at eighty four.
So I know I said top five, but that's actually the top ten so
far for twenty twenty three as perOpen Critic. I'm not sure what's going
to be able to get into thatlist from here on out, but there
are some heavy hitters coming in thenext six weeks between Diablo four and Street
(15:56):
Fighter six and Final Fantasy sixteen,Yes and Amnesia the Bunker for the low
key horror fan or the for theindependent horror fans. There's a lot to
like, a lot going on inthe next couple of weeks, but right
now it's all Zelda, all thetime, and if you're planning on going
to High Rule, it sounds likebased on critical reception, you will not
(16:18):
be disappointed. Coming up after thequick break, we will talk about Classic
Zelda versus Modern Zelda, which youryour preferences might be, where you might
sit on that spectrum, and whereI personally find myself in recent years being
pulled when it comes to Nintendo's HighFantasy franchise. Stick around all right,
(16:42):
Welcome back to Chief Steaks and Controllers, Episode one thirty one. The High
Rule episode just got done talking aboutthe reviews for Tiers of the Kingdom.
I know I'll be tearing into HighRule as soon as possible later today after
downloads on my console and work isdone and all that good stuff. But
(17:02):
I want to move on now toan interesting conversation. Every time a new
game comes out in this franchise,I feel like a debate starts once again
between Old Zelda versus New Zelda,Modern Zelda versus Class Zelda. Where you
fall in that time frame. Andthere's an one review in particular that makes
(17:25):
this apparent from Gfinity E Sports,not a place you would expect your review
for Zelda would come from, butthat does not mean that it's not worth
it's merit. And this is thelowest review that I've seen for Tiers of
the Kingdom at six out of ten. And right here is an interesting paragraph
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about thirty to forty hours in Tiersof the Kingdom looks to be a victim
of Nintendo's obtuse marketing strategy, fromhearing next to nothing about the game to
getting almost too much information in theweek's leading to release. The suddenly fast
moving cloud of information was makes tooquickly into a pot already simmary with speculation
reaching up a willing point that peoplemaking concrete claims from veague assumptions. And
then he gets into classic Zelda,right, like what a classic Zelda is,
(18:12):
and I want to I want tokind of dig into what he says
here. So it's I'm sad tosay that the legend of Zelda Tears the
Kingdom just isn't worth the weight forme personally. It takes too much from
the one title in the series ittook me years to finish, and does
too little to invigorate the classic Zeldamagic back into its reused world. So
(18:33):
there it is. Classic Zella seemsto be a mantra that always appears,
like I said, when a newgame is launched, But what does that
mean anymore? Like obviously you couldsay, you know, and he has
Zelda. Well, okay, sowhat's anys Zelda? It's a top down
the venture title takes about forty fiveminutes to an hour complete if you're talking
(18:56):
Zelda two, because Zelda two isa whole different animal, which a lot
of people, if you recall,panned as being not as good as the
other ones linked to the past.Okay, now we're talking. It builds
on the first game. It youknow, puts in the new graphics,
the new dungeon structures, things likethat, Okaine of Time that seemed this
seems to be the lynchpin, right, Okarine of Time seems to be the
(19:18):
the catalyst for this debate, ifyou ask me, because that's where three
D happened. That's where you know, a full fleshed out story happened.
That's where the series really evolved fromyou know what it was with a you
know, it was a popular game, but I don't think it was as
popular at least growing up to me, I didn't hear about it as much
(19:41):
as I heard about Mario or evenlike you know, Street Fighter two and
stuff like that. Maybe that wasjust my circle of friends but just weren't
playing Zelda as much, right,Okurative time change that okerative time put that
thing squarely on the map for everyonein my group at least. And then
from there we never Backmador's Mask,which I personally have never played, but
(20:03):
I know enough about it, TwilightPrincess, which is for a long time
once my favorite wind Waker, andthe list goes on. So we need
to find then what people were talkingabout when they're talking about classic versus modern
Zelda, because that conversation has shifted, Right, there was a time going
into Skywards Sword where people were yearningfor a change to the formula it did.
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It wasn't you know, modern classicZelda versus modern Zelda. It was
formulaic Zelda versus open Zelda. Right, Starting with the karein of time,
you had a couple of dungeons,then a central point, then a couple
more dungeons to gather items. Asyou gained items, or as you gained
weapons and tools in each dungeon,you use that tool for the rest of
(20:52):
the dungeon, and then you foughta boss, and then you moved to
the next dungeon. So it wasvery structured formulaic in that regard. Part
of what made Zelda great and theoriginal game was that you could go anywhere
you wanted. You'd get your buttkicked if you weren't ready in certain areas,
but you could go wherever you wishto go. Okareend of Time put
that formulaic, linear esque linear ishstructure into it. It followed that through
(21:18):
Majora and through Windwaker. Although Windwaker'sOcean gave the presentation of an open world
you could sail wherever you wanted,but you could only advance the story in
certain places. There wasn't as much. There was some discovery in Windwaker.
It's a it's an interesting outlier,but I don't think it was as fundamental
to that feeling as people might think, at least not now. Then maybe,
(21:44):
but not now and then Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, which has its
own problems, and now hear Breathof the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
So between Skyward Sword and Breath ofthe Wild, people wanted Zelda to
get back to that classic Zelda field. So first it was, you know,
get rid of the formula, andthen Skyward Sword came out and it
(22:04):
was all right, now we needsomething a little more open, we need
something a little more free. Justdrop us in, let us adventure all
that, and then Breath of theWild came out and now Tears of the
Kingdom. People are asking for thatclass Zelda. But what do they want.
Do they want Links Awakening again whereit's it's like the remake in twenty
nineteen, where it's that classic topdown not isommetric, but you know,
(22:29):
screen to screen to screen sort ofmovement. Do you want the three D
Zelda format where it's story story,a couple of dungeons, story story,
more dungeon story, story end.Do you want that structure back? What?
Unfortunately, just saying classic Zelda,you have to be more specific now
because there are multiple Classic Zelda's.In my opinion, I think they do
(22:56):
a good job of catering to bothof those folks. At least they were
with a link between worlds. Andthen when Skywards sort of when that came
out at the time, Skyward's Sword, Let's not Forget still has one of
the highest highest regarded single dungeons inany Zelda game ever. The motion controls
were you know, poop and doingthings like dowsing were admittedly very dumb,
(23:18):
but when it when it shined,when it shown, it really shone.
It was really really well designed incertain places. Um Twilight Princess, same
thing. I loved Twilight Princess fora while. It was my favorite Zelda
of all time, more than windWaker, more than Akarena, more than
linked to the past, more thanall of them. I loved the the
(23:41):
darkness to it right like the wholeTwilight realm, really appealed to me.
The hero shade was very cool,learning the moves of the hero from the
hero. It's that it's himself eventhough he was you know, dead.
Story implications there were really really cool. I thought Midna probably the best sidekick
(24:06):
of any of the sidekicks that theyemployed. Navi was annoying. Fee or
five whatever her name is was fineat least meant more to the overarching Zeldas
story. But still I think Midna'sattitude and midness personality kind of pushed her
over the edge for me. Robablyprotested a lot for me as far as
what I wanted in games at thetime. So that that was always a
(24:30):
favorite of mine, probably my favoriteof that structure of that era of Zelda.
But but now now I think we'rein best Zelda mode, right.
Best Breath of the Wild was thesix year old me or ten year old
me imagined in my head as Iwas playing Linked to the Past. Is
what Breath of the Wild ended upbeing. Yeah, and it sounds like
(24:52):
Tears of the Kingdom was just goingto expand on that. There's your modern
Zelda, modern Zelda. There isno debate. It's Breath of the Wild.
It's probably Tears of the Kingdom atsome point, as more people play
it, they still you know,they modernized some class Exelda in that time.
I mentioned Links Awakening, I mentionedLink between Worlds, which was essentially
(25:15):
a sequel to Link to the Past. So there has been some modernization of
the classic formula. But I thinknow there is a clear divide from where
modern is. I think modern Zeldais clearly defined as Breath of the Wild
and Tears of the Kingdom. Butafter that, class Axelda gets a little
hazy and you need to be alittle more specific. Can't just say I
(25:37):
want class Exelda again, because thatcould mean any one of a multitude of
things. It's kind of like howas a pro wrestling fan, the first
thing I think of is when apromotion, a new promotion, says they
want to get back to the rootsof professional wrestling. We want to take
professional wrestling back to its roots.Unfortunately, that is a format that always
(26:03):
progresses, and when you try andgo back to the roots of wrestling,
you end up making a subpar product, an inferior product. There's a great
Brian Zane wrestling with regret, greatwrestling YouTube, are not sure if you've
ever watched it. He talks aboutthis in his review of the AWF,
a shortlift promotion from the mid ninetiesthat talks about getting back to the roots
(26:29):
of pro wrestling with a round systemwhere instead of you know, it was
just one match, which is abunch of different rounds over and over again,
and how ultimately that promise of goingback to its roots didn't work.
I find some similarities in that tovideo game discourse in general, when they
(26:49):
talk about classic versus modern there isa way to bring good retro gameplay to
the current scene. I think YachtClub Games is a perfect example of being
able to do that. Between ShovelNight and the upcoming Mina The Hollower.
But taking a franchise back to whatmade it so good in the first place
(27:11):
is difficult because a lot of thatis steeped in nostalgia, right. A
lot of what made those games verygood is that you were a kid playing
them. They do those experiences translateas well when you're an adult, or
should they try and modernize them tonow so that you can have those same
feelings you had when you were akid as an adult. That is the
(27:34):
line that developers have to tight ropetight walk, tight rope walk as they
are making games for the first time, sorry, as they're designing a new
game for the first time. Ishould say in a franchise, I'm fine
with something like Tears of the Kingdom. Keep building, making things more modern.
(27:55):
Eventually you're gonna get to a pointwhere it's too big, and then
players will have what I call aparalysis of decision. They'll turn on a
game, they'll have fifty million thingson their map to do. They'll decide,
screw it, I'm not doing anyof these. They'll walk around for
an hour and then turn the gameoff. That's what I call playing a
Ubisoft game in this day and age. But with Zelda, I don't think
(28:15):
there's ever going back to classic Zelda. You're gonna have a classic esque,
You're gonna have a modernized classic,let's call it. But you're never going
to be able to go back tothe feelings that Link to the Past engendered.
You're never gonna be able to goback to the first time you turn
on Anchoreen of Time. That's nevergoing to happen. You're going to have
the first time you turn on amodern Zelda and how that makes you feel.
(28:36):
But it's not going to be thesame similar, maybe, but it's
not going to be the same aswhat classic Zelda made you feel like.
So I think the whole, ultimately, the whole classic versus modern Zelda debate
is pointless, right, I mean, if you want to class Ezelta format,
that's fine, but it's going tobe a modern version of it.
(28:57):
If you're if you're pining for tothe past, so bad, just go
play Link to the Past. Right. Zelda needs to modernize, and in
Tears of the Kingdom it sounds thatthey've done that by building on the last
time they modernized in Breadth of theWild, moral combat. It sounds like
it's going to do that by rebootingthe franchise again after rebooting it in two
(29:18):
thousand and nine, not fifteen yearslater. At least it seems like it.
I could be wrong, but basedon their marketing, with the clock
that hits nine ten, eleven skipstwelve goes to one, sounds like they're
rebooting again or at least going backto the time of the Great Kongoloo.
That is the challenge a game developer, a game designer. Chasing that feeling
(29:41):
of classic, you know, childhoodfavorite games is a fool's errand it's a
fallacy. It's never going to happen. You need to make a game in
that with that name on it thatengenders modern feelings of you know, love
and nostalgia and things like that.You're never going to get back to where
(30:03):
you were, That's impossible. Thisis the industry that only moves forward.
Even when it seems retro, it'sstill moving forward because a game like Shovel
Night, yes it looks like classicMega man, you know, two D
platforming, but there's a lot underthat hood that give it more depth.
I just think that pining for thedays of classic games ultimately will leave you
(30:29):
more disappointed than just trying to appreciatethe modern stuff that's here now. But
that's me. I could be wrongat Big Finale on Twitter, tell me
I'm wrong. I'm open to thedebate. I am not closed minded on
this. I would like to hearyour feelings on that. But after the
break, we're going to get intothe best way to enter Zelde. If
(30:53):
you've ever played Zelda game before andyou're wondering what the hype is all about,
what would I suggest to be thestarting point for a new person coming
into the franchise for the first time. And I'll just say right now,
spoiler alert, it is not wantof Gamelon on CDI you can be safe
in that knowledge. Stick around,all right, Welcome back to Chiefs Takes
(31:18):
the Choler's episode number one thirty one, zooming right along here to the final
segment of the show, and we'vebeen talking about the new Zelda. We've
been talking about classic versus modern,But now we're going to talk about a
good entry point. What is thebest entry point for someone who is brand
new to the Zelda franchise, hasnever played the game before, but wants
(31:38):
to get into it, wants tosee what this whole Zelda things old event
wants with this guy run them aroundas green pajamas, and you know,
figure out maybe which game they don'twant to play in the franchise for the
first time. I have a coupleof ideas of where to start, and
it would depend, honestly on thatbirth particular tastes. If they don't mind
they're an older game, right,if they're like my age, mid thirties,
(32:01):
potentially older. I almost said latethirties. I am not late thirties
yet, don't you put that onme. If they're around my age or
older and they've been playing for avery long time and they've played old retro
style games, just didn't put Zeldaon their radar. Maybe they were a
PC player, or maybe they weremore into platforms when they were a kid,
(32:22):
or like me, when they werefirst growing up, they were more
into Mario and Punch Out, StreetFighter and stuff like that, and didn't
really get into the adventure stuff untillater. I would be comfortable saying the
first Zelda or linked the past rightfor that kind of person who has retro
style gaming under their belt. Insome regard, I would go back and
(32:45):
say, go back and play thefirst one. It's forty five to fifty
minutes. Go in and do it, and enjoy it and love it,
and then you'll understand. Maximilian Dude, one of the best fighting game YouTubers
on the planet, recently played thefirst Zelda for the first time on his
channel. That was exactly what I'mtalking about. The kind of reactions he
was getting being a gamer for aslong as he has been is what I
(33:07):
imagine someone else in his position woulddo. So if they're an older an
older fellow or less who has beenplaying games for a long times like me,
then I would say, you knowZelda one or linked to the past
Zelda two. I would not sayfirst, I would tell them to play
it, but just to get thefeel for how the franchise has iterated in
(33:31):
the past. I would definitely notstart them with the Adventures of Link,
just because that is a major barrierand they would get the wrong impression of
what the entire franchise is if theystarted with the first NPC you can talk
to or one of the first sayingI am error. I just don't think
(33:51):
that would work out for them verywell. So I would not start them
with Adventures of Link. But ifthey're a little younger, right, if
they're let's say mid to early twentiesand they started playing around PS two GameCube
era something like that, then Iwould say something like Win Waker, Twilight
(34:15):
Princess, maybe Akarina of Time threeD. Specifically, I feel like Okarina
of Time for sixty four, asgreat as it was at the time,
visually has not aged as well asother Zelda titles, So if you didn't
(34:37):
play it, then you may notget as much out of it as it
pertains to the wonder of being inthat world, if that makes sense.
So if I'm going to introduce someoneto the three D style of Zelda,
I'd go a little further in thetimeline. Have them play Win Waker,
have them play Twilight Princess, getthem accustomed to the format, and then
(35:01):
say, Okay, go back andplay Aquareine of Time. They're not going
to appreciate it as much as wedid when it first launched, but I
think that's just the cost of notplaying it until now. Whether they weren't
old enough to play it then orweren't interested then in it, then I
think that's the issue because while gameplayit's you know, it's where it's one
(35:27):
of the main reasons Zelda is whereit is today. Look, visuals graphics
were only revolutionary at the time,and they have not aged well okerate of
time. Three D does a goodjob of bringing it into a more modern
look if they have a three DSor access to a three DS, But
(35:47):
if they don't, Win Waker withits timeless cartoonish style or Twilight Princess,
which also you know isn't comparable totoday either but also is not as blocky
let's say polygonal as N sixty fourwas, would be a good start as
(36:09):
well. Younger than that, likehigh schooler, middle schooler, I may
stick with wind Waker or Twilight Princess. Maybe move into Skyward Sword with motion
controls as much as they think SkywardSword HD on switch is a good bridge
(36:30):
there, as it kind of lessensthe whole dependence on motion controls, still
uses them to a point, butnot as much. That might be a
good gateway into that game, butI would probably still say wind Waker or
Twilight Princess for like a teenager forthe same reasons that I say it for
the mid to early twenties, andI guess late twenties, like all of
(36:54):
twenties, I guess, just becauseI don't know that operend of Time or
Major's Mask kind of translates as well. And Skyward Sword did things so wildly
differently as far as like dependence onmotion controls and dungeon structures and storyline and
(37:14):
stuff like that. It's easy tosay Skyward Sword because it's the first one
on the timeline, but I feellike to get that Zelda feel Twilight Princess
or Windwaker would be the best choicesto start. And then for the younger
folks, I would say Breath ofthe Wild or Tears of the Kingdom,
just because of how much you cando in these games. Like my daughter
(37:39):
live at the age of one,was able to run around Breath of the
Wild and you know, look around, jump on stuff, shoot all of
my shock arrows into the sky somehow, just tinker around. It's very much
super Mario Odyssey in that regard,where you can have someone with high gills
(38:00):
who's doing all the things you needto do and getting all the items and
stuff like that, or you canhave a young kid who's just mucking around
in a world jumping on things andseeing what works and what doesn't, and
I think the Breath of the WildTears the Kingdom are the best for that.
So ultimately, the answer to whatis the best entry point for the
(38:20):
Zelda series, in my opinion,is how old you are? Depending on
how old you are, how oldthe person that we're talking to is.
There is no one clear this isthe Zelda you need to start with.
It is not a binary question,for lack of a better term. There
are multiple answers here depending on theage and experience of the person who's asking
(38:44):
the question. Now, are you'regoing to find a lot of people who
have never played the Zelo game before. No. I imagine that there are
plenty of gamers who have played atleast one, But I don't think that
it's as ubiquitous as some people makeit seem. I feel like if you're
going to introduce the franchise for thefirst time, you need to be careful
(39:05):
in how you do it, becauseit's if you take someone who is,
you know, a gamer for thirtyplus years, maybe they played elden Ring
and they loved it, and youthrow them right into Breath of the Wild
they're going to say this, Imean, didn't I do this in Elden
Ring, Right, So you wantto take them back to the retro era,
let them see how it started andbuild them from there. Someone who
(39:27):
is younger, like high school ageor just out of a college age,
they may think they may not beready to go back to retro if they
were even into retro at all,and they may not be interested in a
full on, hundred hour open world, do whatever you want sort of games.
You have to find that middle groundin a place like Windwaker or Twilight
Princess or something of that. IlkLink between worlds on three D s would
(39:52):
be a good option too, ifthey wanted to try something that was retro
with a more modern feel. Okarinaof Time three DS. Same thing.
But a lot of people may sayoperative Time as the first one, and
I just don't know that that's goingto do what the person requests. The
(40:12):
person suggesting it would want it todo, right. They say that because
it's the most popular Zelda game orthe most famous Zelda game, or what
have you. But ultimately that isa tough nut to crack now thanks to
its limited visual identity and to thenow sort of rudimentary dungeon designs. Back
(40:37):
then they were great, but nowthey're they're just kind of there right ocherative
time. As much as I loveit does not age as well as some
people would like it too. Iknow that's a hard pill to swallow,
but it just doesn't. It's it'sit's it's not. It's a fundamental part
of the industry now. It's afundamental building block to where we are now.
(40:57):
But it is one that definitely hasas its cracks and one that shows
its age more than other timeless classicsif you ask me. It's not to
say it's not a great game.It is one of my favorites of all
time and will remain and will remainso it will definitely be one of the
highest regarded games I ever play.But I have to be honest with myself.
(41:22):
It's not perfect. It's definitely notperfect now, and there are better
games in the franchise to be thatfirst one. I would recommend anyone getting
into the franchise to play it eventually, but I wouldn't lead with it.
Whether they're you know, a brandnew, like ten year old kid playing
games for the first time, orthey've been playing games for thirty years like
(41:44):
I have. I wouldn't lead withAkarreina of Time, and some people might
find that controversial, but I justdon't think it would be a good first
Zello game for people. I thinkthere are better options. And I also
think that the question is completely dependenton who's talking to you. Is it
a veteran of gaming who's been playingfor thirty years and just didn't have a
Nintendo or what have you, oris it someone brand new to gaming who's
(42:07):
playing a game for the first time. That's how you have to approach these
things. You can't just pick thisis the Zelda you should start with.
That's another fallacy. It's another fool'serrand you have to ask the questions and
then come to a logical conclusion thatmakes the most sense. But as I
said before the break, that questionwill never be answered with the words wand
(42:27):
of Gamelon or Zelda's Adventure because theCDI Zelda's we can all agree our total
poop, but they are good forsome jokes. Excuse me, princess.
And with that we were at theend of episode number one thirty one of
Chief Steaks and Controllers, presented byFox PHL, The Gambler one or two
point five FM, fourteen eighty AM, and iHeartRadio. If you're listening to
(42:50):
these words at the end of thisepisode, you have reached the final moments.
And as always, I appreciate thatyou are here listening to these That
means you were entertained and educated enoughto stick around for forty five plus minutes
and listen to me talk about aguy in green pajamas who runs around try
and save a princess and has beendoing so for nearly thirty five years now.
(43:10):
Thank you as always for your supportand your patients. I apologize for
the brief hiatus I took at theend of April in the beginning of May,
but I am back now and I'llbe running all the way up to
Summer Games Fest. When I dogo out to Los Angeles to check out
play days, I will be inattendance for Jeff Keeley Summer Game Fest Live
YouTube Theater in Los Angeles. Iwill be there as well, just hanging
(43:32):
out and I will be seeing somestuff and some things while I am out
there with a full report the weekI come back for sure, and hopefully
maybe some interviews I can talk withsome folks and let you listen to their
voices about the things that we areplaying on the floor at sg F.
But with that, I am JasonFinelli. This is Chief sixty and Scholler's
(43:54):
podcast. As always, I hopeyou have a fantastic weekend. I hope
you have an even better week wereright behind it, and we will be
back next time with more of thelatest and greatest from video games. Here
on Cheese, Steaks and Controllers bouthour
Hello, and welcome to episode numberone thirty one of The Cheese Steaks,
a controller's podcast presented by Fox PHL, The Gambler one or two point five
FM, fourteen eighty AM and IHeart Radio. This is Jason Vanella.
You know, I've been a raway for a bit, not gonna lie.
Went through a bit of a monthhiatus. There had my show that
went on Mary Poppins at St.Francis over in Springfield. That was a
(00:47):
good couple of weeks. Then Icame down with a bit of a cold.
Sounded like dust for a little bit. Probably still will. Maybe I
might sneak in here, might seehere. I feel a little you know,
weird voice stuff happening, just youknow, try to ignore it.
Sorry about that, but I hadto record something. I had to come
back this week, and the reasonfor that is because it's Zelda week.
(01:12):
Yep. Zelda Tears of the Kingdomhas released today. As you're listening to
this, my version is probably downloadingon my switch as you hear this.
I'm not sure when I want tobe able to jump in myself. I
did not review it was not partof the initial reviews of although if you
(01:32):
want to check those out. Ihope you like the number ten because there
were a lot of them, andwe'll get into that. We will start
the episode with the what the criticsare saying about Tiers of the Kingdom,
and then I want to move intomore discussion about how to get into Zelda,
classic Zelda versus modern Zelda, becauseevery time I feel like a new
(01:53):
Zelda comes out of this debate startsup again about the classic version versus the
new way to play, and kindof gauge you know, what Zelda is
now or what it's going to be. And then finally we'll start with the
best entry point for new Zelda playersis that this new game should you try
something different, I mean there forall of Nintendo's wacky like shop preservations sort
(02:20):
of things, most if not all, of the Zelda games are available to
you right now, I think,with some exceptions. So um, we'll
go through what would be the bestone to start with if you were getting
into Zelda for the first time atthe end of the episode. But first
let's start with that review round upfour Tiers of the Kingdom and whole Boy,
(02:46):
is this game really impressing people?Ninety seven average on open Critic,
which is just absolutely absurd. Thehighest rated game ever on the platform,
which is saying something considering elden Ringwas last year and probably was the previously
(03:10):
highest rated before that. Thanks toDarren Bontas over at game Spot, he
provided a very good review round up, and we're going to go through a
couple of the more choice quotes,plus some things that I was seeing on
Twitter from folks who had reviewed thegame. So let's start with that.
Game Spot. Their reviewer was alsoten out of ten. Steve Watts quote
(03:36):
here is Tears of the Kingdom isa canvas for your own creativity, a
book to write your own stories,a world to create your own legends.
It gives you back as much asyou put into it and beckons you to
soar borrow, engineer, solve,adventure, and explore. And that seems
to be right off the jump.The big takeaway from all of these reviews
(03:58):
is the freedom that this game givesyou, even more so than what Breath
of the Wild gave you. Someonesaid in their review, I want to
say it was Igenne tom Marks.He said that Breath of the Wild some
areas felt unfinished or they didn't likethey didn't get their full creative vision all
(04:21):
the way through. But now playingTiers of the Kingdom, the entire game
looks like a rough draft, andthat to me was eye opening. Look
I'm not naive, I'm not.This is my first rodeo. I did
not expect Tears of the Kingdom tocome out and be panned or like a
Red Fall situation, no offense toRed Fall. I did not expect people
(04:45):
to hate it. Did I expectpeople to like it this much? No,
Honestly, I really thought that basedon what I was seeing, it
was just you know, I don'twant to say Breath the Wild one point
five, because there was definitely moreto do, like the sky the sky
islands and building things and stuff likethat. So I want to say that
(05:09):
it wasn't just derivative or just smalliterations. But I also didn't think it
was going to be different enough toreally get people's eyes opening like this.
But man, I was wrong.And then Tom Marx in his IgM review,
he continues that the game is anunfathomable follow up to one of the
greatest games ever made, somehow improvingupon it nearly every way, be that
(05:31):
with simple quality of life improvements,a genuinely exciting story which we'll get to,
or wildly creative new building mechanics thatmake you rethink what is possible.
That is some high praise there fromTom Marks. And speaking of the story,
it seems that Gannendorff, his absencein the first game, is heavily
(05:53):
remedied in this one. Someone's sayingthat in comparison to the lad game,
he's back and he's chatty, whichI'm fine with. I feel that the
first game, that wonder of notknowing what the overall villain, what to
expect from the overall villain, andthat feeling of you know it fitting in
(06:16):
with the rest of the game,where the entire game was a curiosity,
including the main malevolent force, andyou don't see it until the very end
or whenever you decide to take onhigh roll Castle. I appreciated that,
But here bringing him in and makinghim more of a major part of the
(06:38):
story, it sounds like it wasthe right call not to mention Giant Samurai
Daddy that he is. But Ilike that he's back. I like that
he has a more prevalent part ofthe story, or more of focus in
the story at least it sounds like. And then again the word I say,
the word focus, But in agame like this, the word focus,
(07:02):
I guess doesn't really apply because it'sso open ended. I was reading
times another GameSpot article how Long toBeat Tiers of the Kingdom, said that
fifty hours is probably a minimum,right. If you just do the story
things, you're going to be inthis game for a long time, and
if you want to complete everything,you're looking at one hundred plus hours.
(07:26):
So saying that anything is a focusis a bit of a misnowhere because you
can't really focus on anything other thanwhatever you decide to do when you first
turn the game on. In thatmoment, little chunks of the story a
side quest here, a discovery there, that's what you're focusing on. Obviously,
when you get back to the mainstory beats, you can talk about
(07:46):
the main players like Ganad Orphan,Lincoln Zell are there, but it's not
really You can't really say that thisgame is focused because it's so open,
it's so much to do. Atleast based on the reviews that I've been
reading, Jordan Midler from VGC anotherten out of ten says the game reinterprets
(08:07):
Breath of the Wild for the better. Instead of removing all the aches and
pains of that game, it completesthe circle by adding gameplay based solutions to
annoyances and encouraging you to let yourimagination run free. Easily one of the
very best games on the Switch again, freedom, imagination. Words that are
(08:28):
going to be coming up, butbig one here is not removing the aches
and pains of the old game,but completing the circle. So instead of
taking away breakable weapons, they justallowed you to make weapons out of anything.
That was one of the coolest partsof that one reveal from about a
month ago, I would say maybea little more where they were creating bomb
(08:50):
arrows on the fly or creating weaponsby sticking two items together right then and
there. That I think is hugefor this game. I think it's going
to be one of the biggest partsof the entire game is seeing people experiment
with different ways to take on enemiesusing just what's around them. There's a
very primal survival sort of feeling tothat that I imagine is a big part
(09:16):
of what's making this game feel sogood for the folks that are playing it.
I am very very excited to diginto myself. But reading these ten
out of ten reviews, I've definitelygiven me some sparks on what I want
to do when I first start.Another one from inverse another ten out of
ten. This is Hayes Madison.The game is so much more than a
sequel, total reimagining. There's thatwording in of what Nintendo did with Breath
(09:39):
of the Wild in twenty seventeen.There are still some minor quibbles like cooking
and clumsy horse controls, but allthat pales in the face of the many,
many things this game does write andI do not like to hear about
the clumsy horse controls. That wasa problem that I had in the last
game. But there is a horserelated thing that I saw from kind of
(10:00):
Funny on YouTube. They do those. They had a short from Blessing Blessing
Junior who that's not his name,is a Blessing Junior from Blessing who said
that one of the coolest things aboutthis game is that he went to the
stable in Tears of the Kingdom forthe first time and all of the horses
(10:22):
that he had raised in the oldgame were still there. So it takes
the hole having to train a horsething right out of the equation. I
love that that's one less tedious taskI have to do, allowing me to
jump right back into exploration of theentire world. Yes, please, that's
fantastic. More of that, please, But yeah, I'm not excited to
(10:48):
expect this to be completely without quibbles, but it sounds like if cooking and
horse controls are it, I thinkwe're in a pretty good spot. Nintendo
Life also ten out of ten,a glorious triumphant sequels one of the best
games of all time, unfiltered blissto lose yourself in for hundreds of hours.
We can't wait to see what theworld will do with the game,
and that, Yeah, that isone thing that I am now that the
(11:09):
game is out in the public.I am excited to see again going to
the experimentation of the weapons and stufflike that, what players decide to do
in this high fantasy sandbox essentially thatthey've been given to build or to you
know, the way they approach battlesor puzzles or things like that. I
(11:30):
had already seen in some gameplay.I think it was game spots gameplay.
Actually, they built this massive likeflying raft with guns laser guns for lack
of a better term, underneath it, and they flew it to a sky
island with a bunch of enemies,and and that raft took out most of
them, and then he jumped downand slashed the rest of them. It
(11:50):
was very Star Wars esque, butin Zelda and that that really piqued my
interest. I am curious to seewhat goes on there. So here's one
that is not a perfect score.It is nine point seven five out of
ten from Game Informer. It mightas well be a perfect score from Kyle
Hilliard, good fella friend of theshow. To Doc get the same goosebumps
(12:11):
exploring High Rule as I did inthe past, but I did experience new
emotions, both a granular level fromsolving individual puzzles and on a larger scale
by going back to one of myfavorite video game locations. They say you
can never go home again, butI adored returning to High Rule with all
new tools that I can get behindthat. I imagine that's something I'm going
(12:35):
to have to feel for myself onceI start my playthrough. But hearing that,
you know, it still invokes thosesort of reactions or emotions after spending
dozens of hours in the world inthe first game, and now coming back
to spend dozens of hours more.The fact that it's still can elicit those
feelings out of players is very good. Games Radar with a four and a
(12:56):
half out of five game builds onwhat breadth of the Wild previously we've heard
that already, and with a platformlike that to work on, the result
can't help but be fantastic that withthe occasional hiccup and execution, the end
result is a game as broad asit is deep, and something that comfortably
justifies the six year weight and thenthe final one. Here you're a game
(13:16):
or four out of five stars andastonishing quite literally top the bottom se equal
adding complexity and splendor to the formulawithout sacrificing its enchantment. I wonder if
Edwin Evans Thirwell is a magic theGathering player with a phrase like sacrificing the
enchantment. But yeah, so,Zelda, good y'all. I mean,
if I could really sum this upin three words, Zelda, good y'all,
(13:41):
there are some caveats obviously, ifyou did. If Beth of the
Wild wasn't your jam this may notbe your jam either. There are still
some things from the previous game thatannoyed people that are still here, like
the weapons grading, the grading system, and the aforementioned horse controls and cooking
and things like that. But itsounds like these are minor squabbles or minors
(14:03):
what is the word I'm looking for, minor complaints. Let's just say,
in the grand scheme of the entiregame, and I'm thinking that even problems
of before are lessened based on thedecisions that they made here, as described
earlier in one of the other reviews. So yes, the media gaming media
(14:24):
world was enamored with this one.Reviews were absolutely bonkers. Ninety seven percent
top critic average on the tiers ofthe Open Critic four Tiers of the Kingdom.
Not a surprise that it's reviewing well, but it is a surprise that
it's reviewing this well, if thatmakes sense. Moving, so, let's
(14:46):
go to the top five on OpenCritic for twenty twenty three. So far,
Tiers of the Kingdom takes the firstspot. Resideval four remake is second
at ninety two, the surprise HiFi Rush coming in and number three with
an eighty nine Vernal Edge, whichis a console RPG, only has six
(15:07):
reviews, but it's reviewing it ineighty eight, so I wonder if just
more people have to review that onecassette Beasts, which came out of nowhere
and is apparently phenomenal at eighty six, Theorism Final bar Line also at eighty
six, Optopath Traveler two, eightyfive, Star Wars Jedi Survivor also eighty
five, The Space for the Spacefor the Unbound and excellent indie adventure title
(15:31):
from Mokagin Studios at eighty five,and then Hogwarts Legacy at eighty four.
So I know I said top five, but that's actually the top ten so
far for twenty twenty three as perOpen Critic. I'm not sure what's going
to be able to get into thatlist from here on out, but there
are some heavy hitters coming in thenext six weeks between Diablo four and Street
(15:56):
Fighter six and Final Fantasy sixteen,Yes and Amnesia the Bunker for the low
key horror fan or the for theindependent horror fans. There's a lot to
like, a lot going on inthe next couple of weeks, but right
now it's all Zelda, all thetime, and if you're planning on going
to High Rule, it sounds likebased on critical reception, you will not
(16:18):
be disappointed. Coming up after thequick break, we will talk about Classic
Zelda versus Modern Zelda, which youryour preferences might be, where you might
sit on that spectrum, and whereI personally find myself in recent years being
pulled when it comes to Nintendo's HighFantasy franchise. Stick around all right,
(16:42):
Welcome back to Chief Steaks and Controllers, Episode one thirty one. The High
Rule episode just got done talking aboutthe reviews for Tiers of the Kingdom.
I know I'll be tearing into HighRule as soon as possible later today after
downloads on my console and work isdone and all that good stuff. But
(17:02):
I want to move on now toan interesting conversation. Every time a new
game comes out in this franchise,I feel like a debate starts once again
between Old Zelda versus New Zelda,Modern Zelda versus Class Zelda. Where you
fall in that time frame. Andthere's an one review in particular that makes
(17:25):
this apparent from Gfinity E Sports,not a place you would expect your review
for Zelda would come from, butthat does not mean that it's not worth
it's merit. And this is thelowest review that I've seen for Tiers of
the Kingdom at six out of ten. And right here is an interesting paragraph
(17:47):
about thirty to forty hours in Tiersof the Kingdom looks to be a victim
of Nintendo's obtuse marketing strategy, fromhearing next to nothing about the game to
getting almost too much information in theweek's leading to release. The suddenly fast
moving cloud of information was makes tooquickly into a pot already simmary with speculation
reaching up a willing point that peoplemaking concrete claims from veague assumptions. And
then he gets into classic Zelda,right, like what a classic Zelda is,
(18:12):
and I want to I want tokind of dig into what he says
here. So it's I'm sad tosay that the legend of Zelda Tears the
Kingdom just isn't worth the weight forme personally. It takes too much from
the one title in the series ittook me years to finish, and does
too little to invigorate the classic Zeldamagic back into its reused world. So
(18:33):
there it is. Classic Zella seemsto be a mantra that always appears,
like I said, when a newgame is launched, But what does that
mean anymore? Like obviously you couldsay, you know, and he has
Zelda. Well, okay, sowhat's anys Zelda? It's a top down
the venture title takes about forty fiveminutes to an hour complete if you're talking
(18:56):
Zelda two, because Zelda two isa whole different animal, which a lot
of people, if you recall,panned as being not as good as the
other ones linked to the past.Okay, now we're talking. It builds
on the first game. It youknow, puts in the new graphics,
the new dungeon structures, things likethat, Okaine of Time that seemed this
seems to be the lynchpin, right, Okarine of Time seems to be the
(19:18):
the catalyst for this debate, ifyou ask me, because that's where three
D happened. That's where you know, a full fleshed out story happened.
That's where the series really evolved fromyou know what it was with a you
know, it was a popular game, but I don't think it was as
popular at least growing up to me, I didn't hear about it as much
(19:41):
as I heard about Mario or evenlike you know, Street Fighter two and
stuff like that. Maybe that wasjust my circle of friends but just weren't
playing Zelda as much, right,Okurative time change that okerative time put that
thing squarely on the map for everyonein my group at least. And then
from there we never Backmador's Mask,which I personally have never played, but
(20:03):
I know enough about it, TwilightPrincess, which is for a long time
once my favorite wind Waker, andthe list goes on. So we need
to find then what people were talkingabout when they're talking about classic versus modern
Zelda, because that conversation has shifted, Right, there was a time going
into Skywards Sword where people were yearningfor a change to the formula it did.
(20:29):
It wasn't you know, modern classicZelda versus modern Zelda. It was
formulaic Zelda versus open Zelda. Right, Starting with the karein of time,
you had a couple of dungeons,then a central point, then a couple
more dungeons to gather items. Asyou gained items, or as you gained
weapons and tools in each dungeon,you use that tool for the rest of
(20:52):
the dungeon, and then you foughta boss, and then you moved to
the next dungeon. So it wasvery structured formulaic in that regard. Part
of what made Zelda great and theoriginal game was that you could go anywhere
you wanted. You'd get your buttkicked if you weren't ready in certain areas,
but you could go wherever you wishto go. Okareend of Time put
that formulaic, linear esque linear ishstructure into it. It followed that through
(21:18):
Majora and through Windwaker. Although Windwaker'sOcean gave the presentation of an open world
you could sail wherever you wanted,but you could only advance the story in
certain places. There wasn't as much. There was some discovery in Windwaker.
It's a it's an interesting outlier,but I don't think it was as fundamental
to that feeling as people might think, at least not now. Then maybe,
(21:44):
but not now and then Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, which has its
own problems, and now hear Breathof the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.
So between Skyward Sword and Breath ofthe Wild, people wanted Zelda to
get back to that classic Zelda field. So first it was, you know,
get rid of the formula, andthen Skyward Sword came out and it
(22:04):
was all right, now we needsomething a little more open, we need
something a little more free. Justdrop us in, let us adventure all
that, and then Breath of theWild came out and now Tears of the
Kingdom. People are asking for thatclass Zelda. But what do they want.
Do they want Links Awakening again whereit's it's like the remake in twenty
nineteen, where it's that classic topdown not isommetric, but you know,
(22:29):
screen to screen to screen sort ofmovement. Do you want the three D
Zelda format where it's story story,a couple of dungeons, story story,
more dungeon story, story end.Do you want that structure back? What?
Unfortunately, just saying classic Zelda,you have to be more specific now
because there are multiple Classic Zelda's.In my opinion, I think they do
(22:56):
a good job of catering to bothof those folks. At least they were
with a link between worlds. Andthen when Skywards sort of when that came
out at the time, Skyward's Sword, Let's not Forget still has one of
the highest highest regarded single dungeons inany Zelda game ever. The motion controls
were you know, poop and doingthings like dowsing were admittedly very dumb,
(23:18):
but when it when it shined,when it shown, it really shone.
It was really really well designed incertain places. Um Twilight Princess, same
thing. I loved Twilight Princess fora while. It was my favorite Zelda
of all time, more than windWaker, more than Akarena, more than
linked to the past, more thanall of them. I loved the the
(23:41):
darkness to it right like the wholeTwilight realm, really appealed to me.
The hero shade was very cool,learning the moves of the hero from the
hero. It's that it's himself eventhough he was you know, dead.
Story implications there were really really cool. I thought Midna probably the best sidekick
(24:06):
of any of the sidekicks that theyemployed. Navi was annoying. Fee or
five whatever her name is was fineat least meant more to the overarching Zeldas
story. But still I think Midna'sattitude and midness personality kind of pushed her
over the edge for me. Robablyprotested a lot for me as far as
what I wanted in games at thetime. So that that was always a
(24:30):
favorite of mine, probably my favoriteof that structure of that era of Zelda.
But but now now I think we'rein best Zelda mode, right.
Best Breath of the Wild was thesix year old me or ten year old
me imagined in my head as Iwas playing Linked to the Past. Is
what Breath of the Wild ended upbeing. Yeah, and it sounds like
(24:52):
Tears of the Kingdom was just goingto expand on that. There's your modern
Zelda, modern Zelda. There isno debate. It's Breath of the Wild.
It's probably Tears of the Kingdom atsome point, as more people play
it, they still you know,they modernized some class Exelda in that time.
I mentioned Links Awakening, I mentionedLink between Worlds, which was essentially
(25:15):
a sequel to Link to the Past. So there has been some modernization of
the classic formula. But I thinknow there is a clear divide from where
modern is. I think modern Zeldais clearly defined as Breath of the Wild
and Tears of the Kingdom. Butafter that, class Axelda gets a little
hazy and you need to be alittle more specific. Can't just say I
(25:37):
want class Exelda again, because thatcould mean any one of a multitude of
things. It's kind of like howas a pro wrestling fan, the first
thing I think of is when apromotion, a new promotion, says they
want to get back to the rootsof professional wrestling. We want to take
professional wrestling back to its roots.Unfortunately, that is a format that always
(26:03):
progresses, and when you try andgo back to the roots of wrestling,
you end up making a subpar product, an inferior product. There's a great
Brian Zane wrestling with regret, greatwrestling YouTube, are not sure if you've
ever watched it. He talks aboutthis in his review of the AWF,
a shortlift promotion from the mid ninetiesthat talks about getting back to the roots
(26:29):
of pro wrestling with a round systemwhere instead of you know, it was
just one match, which is abunch of different rounds over and over again,
and how ultimately that promise of goingback to its roots didn't work.
I find some similarities in that tovideo game discourse in general, when they
(26:49):
talk about classic versus modern there isa way to bring good retro gameplay to
the current scene. I think YachtClub Games is a perfect example of being
able to do that. Between ShovelNight and the upcoming Mina The Hollower.
But taking a franchise back to whatmade it so good in the first place
(27:11):
is difficult because a lot of thatis steeped in nostalgia, right. A
lot of what made those games verygood is that you were a kid playing
them. They do those experiences translateas well when you're an adult, or
should they try and modernize them tonow so that you can have those same
feelings you had when you were akid as an adult. That is the
(27:34):
line that developers have to tight ropetight walk, tight rope walk as they
are making games for the first time, sorry, as they're designing a new
game for the first time. Ishould say in a franchise, I'm fine
with something like Tears of the Kingdom. Keep building, making things more modern.
(27:55):
Eventually you're gonna get to a pointwhere it's too big, and then
players will have what I call aparalysis of decision. They'll turn on a
game, they'll have fifty million thingson their map to do. They'll decide,
screw it, I'm not doing anyof these. They'll walk around for
an hour and then turn the gameoff. That's what I call playing a
Ubisoft game in this day and age. But with Zelda, I don't think
(28:15):
there's ever going back to classic Zelda. You're gonna have a classic esque,
You're gonna have a modernized classic,let's call it. But you're never going
to be able to go back tothe feelings that Link to the Past engendered.
You're never gonna be able to goback to the first time you turn
on Anchoreen of Time. That's nevergoing to happen. You're going to have
the first time you turn on amodern Zelda and how that makes you feel.
(28:36):
But it's not going to be thesame similar, maybe, but it's
not going to be the same aswhat classic Zelda made you feel like.
So I think the whole, ultimately, the whole classic versus modern Zelda debate
is pointless, right, I mean, if you want to class Ezelta format,
that's fine, but it's going tobe a modern version of it.
(28:57):
If you're if you're pining for tothe past, so bad, just go
play Link to the Past. Right. Zelda needs to modernize, and in
Tears of the Kingdom it sounds thatthey've done that by building on the last
time they modernized in Breadth of theWild, moral combat. It sounds like
it's going to do that by rebootingthe franchise again after rebooting it in two
(29:18):
thousand and nine, not fifteen yearslater. At least it seems like it.
I could be wrong, but basedon their marketing, with the clock
that hits nine ten, eleven skipstwelve goes to one, sounds like they're
rebooting again or at least going backto the time of the Great Kongoloo.
That is the challenge a game developer, a game designer. Chasing that feeling
(29:41):
of classic, you know, childhoodfavorite games is a fool's errand it's a
fallacy. It's never going to happen. You need to make a game in
that with that name on it thatengenders modern feelings of you know, love
and nostalgia and things like that.You're never going to get back to where
(30:03):
you were, That's impossible. Thisis the industry that only moves forward.
Even when it seems retro, it'sstill moving forward because a game like Shovel
Night, yes it looks like classicMega man, you know, two D
platforming, but there's a lot underthat hood that give it more depth.
I just think that pining for thedays of classic games ultimately will leave you
(30:29):
more disappointed than just trying to appreciatethe modern stuff that's here now. But
that's me. I could be wrongat Big Finale on Twitter, tell me
I'm wrong. I'm open to thedebate. I am not closed minded on
this. I would like to hearyour feelings on that. But after the
break, we're going to get intothe best way to enter Zelde. If
(30:53):
you've ever played Zelda game before andyou're wondering what the hype is all about,
what would I suggest to be thestarting point for a new person coming
into the franchise for the first time. And I'll just say right now,
spoiler alert, it is not wantof Gamelon on CDI you can be safe
in that knowledge. Stick around,all right, Welcome back to Chiefs Takes
(31:18):
the Choler's episode number one thirty one, zooming right along here to the final
segment of the show, and we'vebeen talking about the new Zelda. We've
been talking about classic versus modern,But now we're going to talk about a
good entry point. What is thebest entry point for someone who is brand
new to the Zelda franchise, hasnever played the game before, but wants
(31:38):
to get into it, wants tosee what this whole Zelda things old event
wants with this guy run them aroundas green pajamas, and you know,
figure out maybe which game they don'twant to play in the franchise for the
first time. I have a coupleof ideas of where to start, and
it would depend, honestly on thatbirth particular tastes. If they don't mind
they're an older game, right,if they're like my age, mid thirties,
(32:01):
potentially older. I almost said latethirties. I am not late thirties
yet, don't you put that onme. If they're around my age or
older and they've been playing for avery long time and they've played old retro
style games, just didn't put Zeldaon their radar. Maybe they were a
PC player, or maybe they weremore into platforms when they were a kid,
(32:22):
or like me, when they werefirst growing up, they were more
into Mario and Punch Out, StreetFighter and stuff like that, and didn't
really get into the adventure stuff untillater. I would be comfortable saying the
first Zelda or linked the past rightfor that kind of person who has retro
style gaming under their belt. Insome regard, I would go back and
(32:45):
say, go back and play thefirst one. It's forty five to fifty
minutes. Go in and do it, and enjoy it and love it,
and then you'll understand. Maximilian Dude, one of the best fighting game YouTubers
on the planet, recently played thefirst Zelda for the first time on his
channel. That was exactly what I'mtalking about. The kind of reactions he
was getting being a gamer for aslong as he has been is what I
(33:07):
imagine someone else in his position woulddo. So if they're an older an
older fellow or less who has beenplaying games for a long times like me,
then I would say, you knowZelda one or linked to the past
Zelda two. I would not sayfirst, I would tell them to play
it, but just to get thefeel for how the franchise has iterated in
(33:31):
the past. I would definitely notstart them with the Adventures of Link,
just because that is a major barrierand they would get the wrong impression of
what the entire franchise is if theystarted with the first NPC you can talk
to or one of the first sayingI am error. I just don't think
(33:51):
that would work out for them verywell. So I would not start them
with Adventures of Link. But ifthey're a little younger, right, if
they're let's say mid to early twentiesand they started playing around PS two GameCube
era something like that, then Iwould say something like Win Waker, Twilight
(34:15):
Princess, maybe Akarina of Time threeD. Specifically, I feel like Okarina
of Time for sixty four, asgreat as it was at the time,
visually has not aged as well asother Zelda titles, So if you didn't
(34:37):
play it, then you may notget as much out of it as it
pertains to the wonder of being inthat world, if that makes sense.
So if I'm going to introduce someoneto the three D style of Zelda,
I'd go a little further in thetimeline. Have them play Win Waker,
have them play Twilight Princess, getthem accustomed to the format, and then
(35:01):
say, Okay, go back andplay Aquareine of Time. They're not going
to appreciate it as much as wedid when it first launched, but I
think that's just the cost of notplaying it until now. Whether they weren't
old enough to play it then orweren't interested then in it, then I
think that's the issue because while gameplayit's you know, it's where it's one
(35:27):
of the main reasons Zelda is whereit is today. Look, visuals graphics
were only revolutionary at the time,and they have not aged well okerate of
time. Three D does a goodjob of bringing it into a more modern
look if they have a three DSor access to a three DS, But
(35:47):
if they don't, Win Waker withits timeless cartoonish style or Twilight Princess,
which also you know isn't comparable totoday either but also is not as blocky
let's say polygonal as N sixty fourwas, would be a good start as
(36:09):
well. Younger than that, likehigh schooler, middle schooler, I may
stick with wind Waker or Twilight Princess. Maybe move into Skyward Sword with motion
controls as much as they think SkywardSword HD on switch is a good bridge
(36:30):
there, as it kind of lessensthe whole dependence on motion controls, still
uses them to a point, butnot as much. That might be a
good gateway into that game, butI would probably still say wind Waker or
Twilight Princess for like a teenager forthe same reasons that I say it for
the mid to early twenties, andI guess late twenties, like all of
(36:54):
twenties, I guess, just becauseI don't know that operend of Time or
Major's Mask kind of translates as well. And Skyward Sword did things so wildly
differently as far as like dependence onmotion controls and dungeon structures and storyline and
(37:14):
stuff like that. It's easy tosay Skyward Sword because it's the first one
on the timeline, but I feellike to get that Zelda feel Twilight Princess
or Windwaker would be the best choicesto start. And then for the younger
folks, I would say Breath ofthe Wild or Tears of the Kingdom,
just because of how much you cando in these games. Like my daughter
(37:39):
live at the age of one,was able to run around Breath of the
Wild and you know, look around, jump on stuff, shoot all of
my shock arrows into the sky somehow, just tinker around. It's very much
super Mario Odyssey in that regard,where you can have someone with high gills
(38:00):
who's doing all the things you needto do and getting all the items and
stuff like that, or you canhave a young kid who's just mucking around
in a world jumping on things andseeing what works and what doesn't, and
I think the Breath of the WildTears the Kingdom are the best for that.
So ultimately, the answer to whatis the best entry point for the
(38:20):
Zelda series, in my opinion,is how old you are? Depending on
how old you are, how oldthe person that we're talking to is.
There is no one clear this isthe Zelda you need to start with.
It is not a binary question,for lack of a better term. There
are multiple answers here depending on theage and experience of the person who's asking
(38:44):
the question. Now, are you'regoing to find a lot of people who
have never played the Zelo game before. No. I imagine that there are
plenty of gamers who have played atleast one, But I don't think that
it's as ubiquitous as some people makeit seem. I feel like if you're
going to introduce the franchise for thefirst time, you need to be careful
(39:05):
in how you do it, becauseit's if you take someone who is,
you know, a gamer for thirtyplus years, maybe they played elden Ring
and they loved it, and youthrow them right into Breath of the Wild
they're going to say this, Imean, didn't I do this in Elden
Ring, Right, So you wantto take them back to the retro era,
let them see how it started andbuild them from there. Someone who
(39:27):
is younger, like high school ageor just out of a college age,
they may think they may not beready to go back to retro if they
were even into retro at all,and they may not be interested in a
full on, hundred hour open world, do whatever you want sort of games.
You have to find that middle groundin a place like Windwaker or Twilight
Princess or something of that. IlkLink between worlds on three D s would
(39:52):
be a good option too, ifthey wanted to try something that was retro
with a more modern feel. Okarinaof Time three DS. Same thing.
But a lot of people may sayoperative Time as the first one, and
I just don't know that that's goingto do what the person requests. The
(40:12):
person suggesting it would want it todo, right. They say that because
it's the most popular Zelda game orthe most famous Zelda game, or what
have you. But ultimately that isa tough nut to crack now thanks to
its limited visual identity and to thenow sort of rudimentary dungeon designs. Back
(40:37):
then they were great, but nowthey're they're just kind of there right ocherative
time. As much as I loveit does not age as well as some
people would like it too. Iknow that's a hard pill to swallow,
but it just doesn't. It's it'sit's it's not. It's a fundamental part
of the industry now. It's afundamental building block to where we are now.
(40:57):
But it is one that definitely hasas its cracks and one that shows
its age more than other timeless classicsif you ask me. It's not to
say it's not a great game.It is one of my favorites of all
time and will remain and will remainso it will definitely be one of the
highest regarded games I ever play.But I have to be honest with myself.
(41:22):
It's not perfect. It's definitely notperfect now, and there are better
games in the franchise to be thatfirst one. I would recommend anyone getting
into the franchise to play it eventually, but I wouldn't lead with it.
Whether they're you know, a brandnew, like ten year old kid playing
games for the first time, orthey've been playing games for thirty years like
(41:44):
I have. I wouldn't lead withAkarreina of Time, and some people might
find that controversial, but I justdon't think it would be a good first
Zello game for people. I thinkthere are better options. And I also
think that the question is completely dependenton who's talking to you. Is it
a veteran of gaming who's been playingfor thirty years and just didn't have a
Nintendo or what have you, oris it someone brand new to gaming who's
(42:07):
playing a game for the first time. That's how you have to approach these
things. You can't just pick thisis the Zelda you should start with.
That's another fallacy. It's another fool'serrand you have to ask the questions and
then come to a logical conclusion thatmakes the most sense. But as I
said before the break, that questionwill never be answered with the words wand
(42:27):
of Gamelon or Zelda's Adventure because theCDI Zelda's we can all agree our total
poop, but they are good forsome jokes. Excuse me, princess.
And with that we were at theend of episode number one thirty one of
Chief Steaks and Controllers, presented byFox PHL, The Gambler one or two
point five FM, fourteen eighty AM, and iHeartRadio. If you're listening to
(42:50):
these words at the end of thisepisode, you have reached the final moments.
And as always, I appreciate thatyou are here listening to these That
means you were entertained and educated enoughto stick around for forty five plus minutes
and listen to me talk about aguy in green pajamas who runs around try
and save a princess and has beendoing so for nearly thirty five years now.
(43:10):
Thank you as always for your supportand your patients. I apologize for
the brief hiatus I took at theend of April in the beginning of May,
but I am back now and I'llbe running all the way up to
Summer Games Fest. When I dogo out to Los Angeles to check out
play days, I will be inattendance for Jeff Keeley Summer Game Fest Live
YouTube Theater in Los Angeles. Iwill be there as well, just hanging
(43:32):
out and I will be seeing somestuff and some things while I am out
there with a full report the weekI come back for sure, and hopefully
maybe some interviews I can talk withsome folks and let you listen to their
voices about the things that we areplaying on the floor at sg F.
But with that, I am JasonFinelli. This is Chief sixty and Scholler's
(43:54):
podcast. As always, I hopeyou have a fantastic weekend. I hope
you have an even better week wereright behind it, and we will be
back next time with more of thelatest and greatest from video games. Here
on Cheese, Steaks and Controllers bouthour
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