Episode 134 - WrestleQuest with Mega Cat Studios

This week, Jason sits down with James Deighan and Zack Manko of Mega Cat Studios ahead of their appearance at San Diego Comic-Con to talk all about WrestleQuest, which launches August 8!

Topics include Zack's burgeoning wrestling career, PAX East, the "wrestlfication" of the RPG, and more!

Episode Transcript

(00:25):
Hello, and welcome to episode numberone thirty four of the Chief Steaks and
Controllers podcast. Coming at you alittle later than usual, but there's a
good reason, I promise you,and as soon as we get right into
it, you'll understand what that is. My name is Jason Finelli, and
I am the video game and competitivegaming insider for Fox PHL The Gambler one

(00:47):
or two point five FM fourteen eightyAM iHeartRadio. Wherever you get your podcasts,
you can download and listen to thisright now. And this is a
special episode. I don't think I'veever done an episode like this before.
I have had interviews, I've hadinterviews that go longer than one segment.
I've had guests for the entire show, but I don't think I've ever done
an actual episode long interview. It'sgoing to be quite a quest and that

(01:15):
it's appropriate that the first time Iever do this is with the folks who
made Wrestle Quest. Megacat Studios isback on Cheese, Steaks and Controllers,
and we're going to talk about thegame because that launch is finally knocking on
the door. James dan zach Mankoback with me here on Cheese steaks and
controllers talk about wrestle quest gentleman,how's it going, good man? Well,

(01:38):
I'm excited to come back where hugefans of cheesecake can control. You
can see how he ended up here. I I a cheese steak, cheesecake.
I don't call him what every wantedon the show, Martin murpetin the
better find it all? That's correct, Amen to that. So last time

(01:59):
we saw each there was Pax East. Zach was doing his very a very
good uh professional wrestling uh in thatin that boxing ring that you got.
Yeah, um, how did thatfeel? Getting into the ring. It's
as opposed to just watching from before, so honestly great, Like just even
when we had so for those Idon't know, at PAXI East, we

(02:21):
had a real ring on site andwe had real um indie pro wrestlers there.
Um when the wrestling wasn't going on, you know, we were in
the ring hanging out. We hada photo boot set up and just being
in the ring between the ropes upyou know on a stand, it does
make you just want to like bounceoff the road, throw your friends around,
you just get giddy being in there. Um. So yeah, it

(02:45):
was definitely a blast. And thenwe did do some you know, some
actual pro wrestling. We got askip going on where my arch nemesis had
stole the game and wasn't going torelease it, but we managed to defeat
him. So yes, nothing sayswrestling like, let's determine the ownership of
this ip or this property then witha wrestling match. The only the only

(03:07):
other thing that Trump's stat is custodyof a child. We've done that,
ay about eighteen years ago. SoJames, you're watching this match, You're
watching Zach, you know, dohis thing in the ring, and you
have to be half excited and halfoh my god, I hope he doesn't
hurt himself. We have too muchwork to do between now all this right,
You know, it's funny we takeso many risks and never crossed my
mind and at no point that Ithink Man of Zach breaks his neck would

(03:30):
happen. Let's keep thinking, goZach finally living our dream in there.
You know, if you cly wrestlefied ourselves. What if I told you,
Jason that wrestle Quest was actually theprequel to Zach actually becoming a wrestler,
and the game is a second tothat that that would be the most
unique indie wrestling story for the lastcouple of years. I feel like,

(03:51):
if this game ends with Muchacho Man, Randy Santo's actually being Zach Manko and
it's just like this live shot orhe's the one playing with the zoys at
the end, opens the door andhe's like it is screaming, Oh man,
that's a great idea. There's yourDLC pitch right there, Zach.

(04:13):
We're launching Zach's career. Now werethey Were they local wrestlers to the Boston
area? Did you bring them fromother parts of the country? How'd you?
I noticed one of them at leastI've already seen in my playthrough.
Uh he's standing. Where was he? Was he at the Macho Man statue?
I think? Yeah? Yeah?So they right? Caliro? So

(04:34):
are they were they local Boston orfriends of yours? Like? How'd you
find them? So Cal is afriend of ours? They's are friends of
ours? So Cal we met wayback through bookings. His dad, David
has been like a career like wrestlingcommunity ambassador. He's just one of these
bookers that everybody loves. He justtreats talent really well. He just is

(04:57):
really consistent guy. Love that andCow's on the come up and we just
we met David, we just clickedimmediately and he's loved like our kind of
approach to like talent forward, transparencyand the TAKERI Dy driven deals and he
was like, this was great.Not a lot of those all the time
in wrestling. Let's find more waysto work together. And as we got
to know Cow, we like lovedhim. He's like a fanny pack gimmick,

(05:19):
which you can imagine as a retrogaming base, like retro company.
We have a soft spot for fannypacks. And then Vinnie Vinnie League Glamrock,
who was there. So Vinny wasthe original trademark copyright owner for the
name Wrestling Quest, so he hadan app he was working on. It
was intended to connect all of thedifferent independent wrestling events into one place.

(05:45):
And it's funny like Vinny was workingon that app while we were working in
the game and both using the name. We just made a put the barn
like upside down like reverse Mortgar atour houses, placed a giant bad Vinnie
was like, every once in awhile work on the zapp of my free
time. And after many love lettersand emails and phone calls eventually to his

(06:08):
employer to get a hold of him. We're able to come to terms on
the wrestle Quest trademark, so webecame we became friends. It's funny that
he's actually from Northern PA, butVinny's like a good friend of us now,
like I like love. Then hewas just talking to him this morning,
and we knew we wanted something withCal and Vinnie to connect as like
our two retros themed wrestlers. Likeif you look at the Vinnie glam Rock's

(06:30):
backstory, he's like electrocuted by Nintendocontroller to become a wrestler. Pretty good
stuff. But we just knew theyhad to be together at some point.
So when we had our wish listitem granted through sky bound up having the
ring live at Pax East, whichwas a feat in and of its own.
Getting through all the insurance requirements,the paperwork, and getting all the

(06:50):
enforcers like comfortable with the idea ofZach wrestling everybody like, um, you
know, we basically decided we wantedthose folks to be there, and then
we wanted to get like top performingindie talent that for a casual wrestling audience
packs didn't get excited. And there'ssome folks that are like JT. Dunn,
who's like top three unsigned independent talent. Yeah right now, he's awesome.

(07:12):
You know. Um Zach actually haslike a JT. Dunn collection on
his hard drive. Really that's trueof his matches, though maybe it's Becca.
Actually we have different collections for differentreasons. I'm just a fan of
his Helism's like he's just a masterheal. Yeah, he's my favorite.
Heel at paxis, Like I wasdying every time he was like calling out

(07:34):
Yoshi or making like you know,Pokemon, You're never going to catch them
all. Like I was just sointo all of his ad hoc like he
healss life, Like he was justgreat, you know, awesome performer.
But it's like we're just fans ofwrestling, And so I made Wrestling Quest
and as we got to go throughlike the series of booking, it was

(07:55):
a lot of fun being able towork with David and some local promotions kind
of cherry pick, you know.Also we got to ask them like who,
like which of them are wrestling andgaming fans and like that intersection was
key and which is plenty of handsto choose from. Not to mention a
little mean Kathleen. I don't wantto like go let her go unoticed.
She was hilarious. I remember distinctlylocking eyes with you, Jason, whenever

(08:16):
we were watching watching their first card. But yeah, it was, it
was. It was a lot offun. I'm really glad to pick that
up. That was. I wouldsay top five proudest moments of being at
Megacat would be like looking over andseeing the team respond to like the crowd
of people, like going like wrestsoul quest, so quest like that was.
It was pretty wild, man,And it's um it's the unifying energy

(08:39):
of wrestling right Like it was justlike too much fun for people to ignore
all these like laps wrestling fans thathad probably not watched wrestling in a long
time. We're just like vacuumed intothe entertainment factor and uh, it was
just awesome. It was so muchfun to be part of it. I
wish every event we did was likethat. I was just saying to the
team, I don't want to goto Pack's West this year because there's no

(09:01):
wrestling ring. What's the point,all right? Well, I mean you
could always resurrect backstage assault and juststarts through and like like just put a
circle down and do hardcore in theparking lot. Maybe it's like a like
a fiery totally. I'm sure theywould. If you want to talk insurance
requirements, Oh dear, so onething real quick, I do want to

(09:24):
I think a special mention. Theone wrestler who sticks out in my head
besides Zach of course, was theWas he the Angel of Love? Was
he cupid? Or I still thinkabout that Kim Back and I'm like,
man, I wish I could seethat a little more prevently. Who talk
to me about that guy? He'sexcellent. Look, get up the name

(09:46):
of that tag team right now?So they're through the heart, that's right,
Yeah, they're so good. Actuallyhave an autographed date by ten from
the event somewhere. Yeah that thatthat was really cool? Did The entrance
was great? Right? It wasjust so good man excellent. So coming
out of packs East, I haveto say two things. The crowd,

(10:07):
like you said, was electric,And there was always a crowd at your
booth, whether it was in linefor the photos or when you were doing
the wrestling matches. They were peoplewatching through the glass and the catwalk.
You were in prime position there.I don't know if you intended that,
but that was prime spots where peoplecould still watch up above. It seemed
like excitement was high, and overallopinion of people I spoke to on the

(10:33):
floor and articles that I read afterthe fact was positive. Is that what
you took away too or were theresome were there some things that maybe were
said to you or whatever that youyou thought, Okay, this is something
we need to work on or whatwe need to focus on going forward.
We did get some feedback that wasconstructive, but it's good. Most of
it was like high fives and likeheartwarming wrestling stories and mail for Zack's wrestling

(10:56):
career. All right. It washonestly, it was a that'll be the
first and maybe only ever trade showwe go to where we just have fans
in line, just super hype,just telling us how excited they are about
the game. Because normally when we'reat a trade show, one of the
main reasons we're there is to collectlive, like dynamic feedback from like expert

(11:18):
players and looking ways to improve thegame and see what we can learn from
these these like pre launched showings andbecause the rest request had been through so
many like fi fistfuls of focused groupsand play sessions and events, it was
like it was like finally ready forits main event, right Like it didn't
just show up for Paxiast that year. We already brought it to two other

(11:41):
Pax East and you know we workedon it for a while. So this
is this is where you went allout. This was no doubt, all
out, for no doubt, allout trademark that the owners I don't own
all that the people who want allout a lot. I'm just saying the
two words leave you alone, Tonyum. So my now have a done
that. I understand you are goingto Comic Con this week, which is

(12:03):
part of the reason why we havewe have met where we're meeting today,
they will be at San Diego ComicCon. If you're listening to this and
you will be to check them out. I am the sky Bound booth.
I imagine you have demos there isthat what will be? Do they have
a wrestling ring for you this time? But I can't spoil what we have
this time not a wrestling ring,but it's pretty dope. I think.

(12:24):
I think if you're a wrestling fan. There's gonna be a whole lot of
a whole lot of stuff to dothem all right. Making a note,
since I won't be at Comic Con, ask after we are done talking today,
after I stop recording. Um,that's awesome cool. Um so yeah,
so Thobe at San Diego Comic Conthis week, you sold him at
Paxy's launch is coming up soon.August the ninth, We are knocking on

(12:46):
the door. How do you feelgoing into the final month? You're in
the final month now before launch,five years in the making. Here we
are. What are both of you? What are your first thoughts when you
think, man, we are weare at the finish line? Well,
August eighth, actually wait, sorry, yeah, yeah, okay, gave
you a day. I would sayI'm mostly worried about Zach's wrestling career these

(13:07):
days. The game. The game'sready, it's tests, it's localized,
it's balanced. We've been oiling anddoing push ups and just smack talking each
other and just going hard for enoughcycles now that we feel like the fans
are ready to to get some wrestling. Question. So it's I can't wait
for Andy to push the button.Since Andy released still the games, but

(13:28):
um, yeah, doubt. Yeah. Everyone everyone's good at something, you
know, Shawn Michael's and that giftdude. Yeah, And it's like for
years he just stretching the fingers out, like make sure it's ready, you
know, lining up over the button, tapping race keys. But it's like
Mario teaches typing, but there's justone key, you know, the wrestle

(13:50):
Quest launch keyboard. And he's beenpre training this the whole time. Um
comes into the office. He slapat himself with the cheeks. Got this,
no doubt. You know what I'mmost excited about for rest Requests and
this I guess it's also for Zach, but for anyone listening. We just
packed rest Requests with Easter eggs andfan moments like so Daisy, and I

(14:13):
just cannot wait for people to findthem and share them, because the few
that have little bits here and therewould league or we share them with you
know, first party partners or promotionalpartners. Like the reaction has been so
incredibly positive, Like it's it's justvery obvious that it's crafted with care by
wrestling fans and RPG fans, andI just can't wait for people to share
some of these insane things we packedin UM for no good reason other than

(14:37):
like love for it, like you'veour commercial reason, and uh, I
just can't wait. I can't waitfor like you know, Twitter to blow
up with people finding some of thesereally wild things that we brought to life
in the game. Zach, youwant to do want to comment on that?
UM? Just as far as emotionsleading up to launch UM, You're
right, it has been this multiyear long development, so it is kind

(15:01):
of like very exciting, very sweatytime. I'm sure once it's actually launched,
it'll be like you know, likeBitter Sweet's like finishing like a movie
or a TV show or something.You're like wow, like you know,
it's almost like how what But Iknow that Wrestle Quest, we've definitely wrestle
Fight ourselves and I can't imagine thenext project or excited to see the next

(15:22):
project and taking that energy like intoit, taking the mindset of like Wrestlification
and you know, stronger and moredramatic, more story, you know,
more impact, more wild moments,that type of thing, and applying that
to you know, a game thathas nothing to do with wrestling, and
see what happens Okay, so youshow that that actually answered a question I
had later on. If you're ifyou would concept in your next game,

(15:45):
if you have a choice, wouldit be trying to adapt something else to
an RPG or try to adapt wrestlingto something else? So I think you
just answered my question. Oh man, Yeah, honestly like both. Like
I love RPGs, you know,definitely favorite genre. I don't have as
much time to play them now asit did throwing up and whatnot. But
I mean, obviously that's one ofthe goals of wrestle Quest, was taking
that beloved JRPG formula and then updatingthe parts that have an aged so well,

(16:08):
exploring something that's completely new, youknow, wrestle Quest is it's all
it's wrestling world, so you're notin another yet another like kind of fantasy
world. You know, it's thisentirely new set up and everything. But
I would love to do another RPG, and just as we wrestle fight RPGs,
you know, maybe there's something elseyou can adapt to that formula.

(16:29):
But I think the lens that wedid it through with wrestle Quests, you
can take sort of the spirit behindit, if not the actual you know,
boots to the ground tactics, right, James with au there, I
wish every game we did was wrestlingbase wrestling inspired. I would say that
there is a couple of different timesthroughout this process, Zack and I talked

(16:53):
about just rebranding like Wressell Cats Studiosand like we've opted talked about the wrestle
vacation and how like I mean really, um, wrestling can be used across
any mechanic, any genre, andthere's nothing preventing us from even aside from
what we hope is Russel quest too, like everything can benefit from a little

(17:15):
bit of wrestling powder. Agree withthat at all? I thought, I
wonder if wrestle powder, um,almost's a powder and not you know shot,
We're okay, uh. I wantto add to that, Jason.
I was pretty bummed out to seethat the domain name wrestlvania was taken because
I was like, that was goingto be good one. But well that

(17:37):
and you might be able to consolea fellow Indy. I think you're still
in the studio. H the guacameleateam because they basically did that with Luja
Libre. They made an eventuvania.Um, but yeah, Wrestlvania. Oh
God, I like that. Ilike that a lot. Um, I
was actually I mean, I hadbeen following the game, so I knew
what you were coming into, whatyou were you were trying to do here,
But I was surprised with how manypeople came away impressed that, like

(18:02):
the whole I'm not a wrestling fan, I'm an RPG fan and this still
works for me. Right, that'ssort of opinion um prevalent throughout packs East.
I know I've read it again afterthis most recent preview run. What
last week I think in Bargo was, if I remember correctly, Um,
did you expect that? Like,were you hoping for that sort of reaction

(18:22):
where you get the non wrestling fansto play the RPG? You figured you
had the wrestling fans to try outthe RPG format. I feel like,
if I have to, it wouldbe easier to convince a wrestling fan to
try this then it would be toconvince an RPG fan to try this.
Does that make sense? Um?Do you think you have done that so
far before we've gotten you know,since we first started the game. Um,

(18:45):
I don't know. I don't wantto speak for Zach. He's a
whole lot to say on this topic. But and he'll beat you up.
He's a wrestler now, dude.Trust me. He lets everybody know.
I just break their chairs before theyget to work. A d it's a
drive any minutes to fill its gastank these days because you keep cause of
trouble with every gas station attendant.He just greets people with an Okada elbow.

(19:07):
Jimmy Johns will deliver to the office. You know, everyone's very hunger
here. But that the you know, the the origin of Wrestle Requests design
was how do we take like agenre we have so much reverence for that
we like, were raised by,that we love and we know as a
player what goes into progression and systemsand balancing and like, just to make

(19:29):
a good RPG or a great RPGit's the goal. It's like, it's
massive undertaking. And you know,we decided from a product standpoint that if
we were going to double or tripledown on Wrestle quest as we did,
that, we had to make itaccessible to someone who doesn't like wrestling.
So we've been focusing on since dayzero, how do we make it a

(19:49):
great RPG through wrestling lens and thewrestling characters come to life and we can
actually introduce people to wrestling. AndI say, like top five produs moment
for Make a Cat. One ofthem was the ring And one of them
that I think shared with a lotof the team members is we had a
like a member of the press atthe first pack. Heats have played it
that like discovered wrestling through wrestle Questand he wrote he wrote this as awesome

(20:12):
like fanmail later it was like monthslater and he's like, I took your
advice and I started with the WrestleManiasand he's like, can I just subcribe
to subscribe to Peacock. He's like, now I'm like consuming every Sunday a
few hours of it for fun.And he's like, I just love this
so much. He's like, youbrought all the fun that I find in
like anime through this larger than lifeinstead of real characters. And he's like,

(20:36):
I just can't deal with that.Plus a nostalgia. He's like,
I feel like I missed out ontwenty years of wrestling and you like saved
me from losing twenty more, likethank you so much. It was just
this really great email. I remembershowing the team, I'm like, well,
I guess we won voice. Youknow, like, even if we
don't ship the game, what elsecan we say? We changed someone's lives,
We change the lives around here?What do you do with your game?

(20:56):
You know? And the team waslike, we're shipping the game though,
you guess of course, yeah,no doubt. I'm like, I'm
like, as you guys, comedown, We're just here to evangelize wrestling
fans, you know, Like it'sbut it's it's like a you can't make
that stuff up. It's like someof my favorite memories of being at Megacat
have been these like profoundly cool fanmoments for people today they proposed or their

(21:18):
wives playing whatever games are they.You know, all all those things are
what you really remember way later afterthe medic critic, after the sales,
and and it's like the the ideathat we introduce people to something we love
so dearly, like that is justamazing. So exactly. I don't mean
it to keep down of that.I know I know how much you care
about all these things. Please likeshare your sentiment totally. I mean,

(21:41):
from from the ground up, thegame is always meant to appeal to both
audiences, wrestling fans j RPG fans, And it's weird because you know,
we were very shocked that rest ofthe pro wrestling hasn't been explored through an
RPG, you know, prior tothis um just because there is so much
shared blood there between the larger lifecharacters, the storytelling, you know,

(22:02):
these betrayals, dramatic reveals, evena boss fight. A boss fight and
RPG. I mean that's like apay per view for wrestling, yep,
so there's there's you know, obviouslyall of those correlations are explored. Sou
I was also pleased to see peoplecome up and like say like, well
I love RPG's but never never watchwrestling, and then play the demo at
the booth and the come away like, but this is awesome. I can't

(22:22):
wait. You know, maybe Ishould check out wrestling now. And um
So, anytime someone's playing, Ialways preface like RBG fan, wrestling fan,
both neither, and no matter whatthey seem, to come away like
just pump the game. So happyto hear that. Yeah, now in
in your wrestlification of the JRPG,I do want to talk about that panel

(22:42):
too. At Paxy's was excellent.Um, did you find that there was
a part of pro wrestling, likea certain section whatever it may be,
that didn't fit as well into theRPG formula as you kind of hoped it
would. Like you have obviously wrestlers, you have moves, you have the
pin mechanic, which I also wantto talk about. That's great, um,

(23:04):
Managers as a passive fourth party member, was there any facet of pro
wrestling that you were like, well, we can incorporate it this way,
but it may not be to itsfull potential? Does that make sense?
Was so how I'm getting at there? Um? I think there's some stuff
that we probably could have taken liketo the next level, and that had
we had we had to do overa wrestle quest too, that will definitely
you know address like. Um,obviously, wrestling is very physical, and

(23:29):
I do think that the combat andwrestle Quest reflects that well while maintaining a
turn based framework. Um, butI think there's there's additional things we could
do to make it, you know, pop off even more in the next
go round. James, You know, we we have over ten thousand hand
drawn sprites and wrestle quests just acrazy amount of art and you know,

(23:52):
part of like the spectacle and funand the just insane handcrafted moment. I
wish we had more in budget andtimeline for that. I could probably have
worked on rest the Quest forever.So I take it with a grain of
salt, but I'd like, Ilove the setup. I love like,
you know, cutting, cutting promosand you know, having these big moments,
and I wish we had enough budgetimproven market for what everyone said was

(24:15):
not going to land to be ableto capture things like you know, crazy
camera finishing moments and like these,like the dramatic you know scenes and dramatic
moments within a match of a bossbattle and actually really zooming in and having
just insanely cool additional animations, whichwe already did a lot for that.
But it's true, it's like,I feel like that's just um as a

(24:36):
wrestling fans, and I could haveused even more of like just pour that
sauce until it was over the cup. You know. Yep, that's fair.
No, that's completely fair. Andagain, with since your hand rolling
these animations, that the game's alreadytaken five years, you don't want it
to take five more for something witheighty year old James the egan all of

(24:56):
a sudden. So let's get intothat panel that you had at Packs East
to rectification. The JRP was arestification of JRPG, jfication of pro wrestling
the name okay, restification of job. I thought it was a fascinating talk
that really got into like your philosophybehind this game. I loved the mentions

(25:17):
of Super Mario RPG, which,by the way, our time has come.
That game is finally back after twentyseven years. So I remember seeing
that trailer and being like the WrestleQuest, guys are gonna love this.
Like I cried. I don't knowabout you, but I cried. But
anyway, um, I cry everyday. My eyes are welling again.

(25:38):
Don't bring it up during the interview, Jason. You know I feel about
Gino Mallow every time you do it. It's so good. Uh. And
it looked great. Okay, Yeah, I could do an entire interview on
that, and you didn't. Youguys didn't make that. We're talking about
the game that you made. Um, So for those who weren't at the
panel, or you're doing it againat San Diego, right, bigger and

(26:00):
better bigger and better, more wrestlersthis time too. So for oh oh
so for some poor sap who wasat back ceased and wasn't at San Diego
Comicon me, or won't be atSan Diego Comicon, talk to me about
what you might touch on here thatyou've added since the last time, or
maybe expanded upon certain topics that wereaddressed in that padel that you've had some

(26:21):
time to like flesh out this time. Well, zact before you take over,
I wanted to add that Sergeant Slaughter, Jake the Snake, Jeff Jarrett
are going to be giving the panelwith us. Oh that's awesome Comicon.
Yeah, and uh, you knowSerge has been making his act with out
of push ups constantly. Good,yeah, lots of that. Yeah.
And then just in general, um, you know, we're able to go

(26:45):
a little bit further behind the curtainfor like how these folks were involved more
than just licenses, Like we've beenreally specific and that like some of the
talent um, you know, we'veactually been able to apply their creative and
some of their insights on what islike actually being on the road or what
it's like living through this independent depressionalcircuit. Basis, and they definitely asked
some stories to tell, so thosefolks, those folks are part of the

(27:07):
panel this time. And then thehead wrestle father himself, Zack, please,
you know, talk us to talka little bit about the Rustification panel
because we just got done redoing it, like the three taking all the different
I want to say, like fanservice moments or questions and requests people have
had, and making sure that that'sfront and center to give them all the

(27:29):
other raditional wish lists information they wantedto see. That's fair. Yeah,
I think as far as you knowwhat's been expanded on or what's been added
since Pass East besides what James mentioned, really the focus on now on the
section about JRPG like tropes or staplesand how we wrestle fied them. Like
we talked a little bit about thecombat, but really the idea of restification

(27:52):
is making it, you know,adding wrestling, so making it bigger,
you know, sweatier, more spectacle. So something even as simple as opening
a locked door in a RPG,it's this mundane mechanic you find everywhere,
So how do you wrestlefy that?How do you turn that into something that's
a delight for the player, andwe did in Wrestle Quest is instead of
locked doors, you find tables blockingyour path, and if you know anything

(28:14):
about wrestling, you know that table'sgetting smashed. So instead of finding a
key, you find this token thatsummons an NPC wrestler that you pick up
and slammed at the tables. Sonow when you open a door, it's
this. You know, it's thisfunny, awesome animation if your guy pile
driving it, and it's different forwhatever lead character you have to So I
mean, even that little bit mixesit up and adds that flair. But
again it's about taking these like kindof stay at elements and amping them up

(28:40):
wrestlefying them. I love that tablespot. By the way, the first
time I did it in the inthe Pink Shop. It's early in the
game, so anybody who's who's gonnaplay it, that's not a big spoiler.
But oh man, as soon asI did that for the first time,
but I realized what was actually happening, I'm like wow. And I
played that in the demo at PAXseason I did it again in the preview

(29:00):
build, and I don't know ifI just forgot where I put it out
of my mind, but to seeit again, I was like, oh,
yeah, this is still awesome eventhe second time. So I loved
I love that mechanic there. Ialso like that you have two stories going
on. I didn't remember that.So Randy Santos Mucaco Man voiced by Patrick

(29:21):
Kikey, is the main guy.He's he's the guy that you've had.
He's front and center in the postersand everything else. But there's a whole
other side story going on here,which I feel like is more rooted in
wrestling history. I'm getting I'm surethis is intentional. I'm getting major Heart
Family vibes from this other story.There's a dungeon in the basement, it's

(29:41):
in the north, There's a wholeall these different sort of things that are
given me this edge. So isthis like, is the is the Muchaco
Man's story like the RPG story,and then the other story like the wrestling
history story. I imagine they're goingto blend at some point, But how
how is that? How was likewriting two different stories to come together?

(30:03):
Were did you intend to do thator did you try to put a little
bit of history into both? Amight making sense here, I feel like
I'm not making any sense here.I don't know. Just the Logan story
seems like it's more steeped in wrestlinghistory for the before Jack action. I'm
saying, Becazach that can go deepon this, But I would argue that
there's many great legacy wrestling families,like sure, the Roads and the Funks,

(30:26):
and it's like, you know,Bring definitely intended to like like the
Logan families intended to be this homegrownwrestling dynasty. And also when we talked
about laying out the world map,but the different styles of wrestling and the
regions of wrestling, and you know, we had to have something with the
great history of Canadian wrestler could justso many of them, right, And

(30:48):
all that said, we did signbred Hart, then we had to terminate
the agreement, so that sucks.Thanks Jason, But oh, I don't
know, I'm just messing around,but it's it's yeah, I mean,
it was like our part of ouroriginal product was was to have like something
representing all these pillars, and thenwhen we signed Brett, we went really
deep on Brink. And then wheneverBrett was terminated with wwwe purchasing out everything.

(31:14):
We had to make some really hardchanges, and we decided we loved
like the Locan family too much,so we just we just made sure that
there was enough about it that wasnot just heart based. And and there's
so much to that too. There'sprobably fifty wrestling the families we found that
are multigenerational, that are just theserich, kind of bleeding grounds of just

(31:34):
crazy wrestling talent that the industry wouldn'tbe the same without them. And there's
just an epic number of Canadian wrestlers, like just crazy good talent that comes
out of Canada. And oh yeah, I mean it's like it's probably ten
pages of content on Wikipedia for Canadianwrestlers. Like if you know Chris Jericho,
it's a great one, right.It's like, you know, there's

(31:56):
actually a number of wrestling schools andindependent wrestling feds through Canada, which is
not a great slog for traveling.He actually gets a folks from my Jim
the wrestle in Nova Scotia and butyou know, locally here and pitching Jim.
But it's it's definitely am like Iwould say like celebrated sports on hockey,
you know, but it's a right, it's definitely like a celebrated Canadian

(32:20):
event. But Zach, I knowyou know the logans personally. I know
you actually went to school with Brink, so yeah, yeah, totally got
stretched in the same gyms. Um. So, as far as the difference
between we chatch Himan and Brink Logan, we chatch hi Man is this storied
eide innocent like love wrestling his wholelife, and his thing is that he
exists in constant cafe like for him, wrestling is all real, all the

(32:45):
time, um. Whereas Brink isvery much in the know, like he's
a mid card jobber in his father'spromotion and he does it even though he's
like very technically capable. He's actuallya very you know, proficient wrestler.
He's willing to take on that roleto help the family business out, like
he understands like Okay, these guysare you know hot right now, Like
sure, I'll help put them over. But it grates on him where he

(33:06):
wants to be a champion because heknows he is the better wrestler, whereas
Muchacha man um he wants to bea hero, like he sees these faces
on screen, he's like I wantto be like that. I want to
be this super good guy. Sofor him, his journey is more about
how do I become this this herohis face without compromising that starry idealism,

(33:29):
like without you know, if itgets into the ins and outs of the
industry. How does he do thatwithout compromising without losing his soul? Really
is kind of like the his narrative, whereas Brinks is more about, well,
how do I become a champion onmy own terms? How do I
get the get the belt without youknow, kind of shoving my family to
the side, letting the family businessdown. How do I spread my wings,

(33:51):
you know, without kicking dirt myfamily's face type of thing. So
they're sort of like opposite sides ofthe same coin Muchacha Man is very like
rash and bold and raisin, andthat speaks to like his move set,
whereas Brank you know, is oppositecolors, cool colors, calm, cool,
collected. He's professional um in hisstyle is less grandiose and more technical,

(34:12):
wrestling based and everything. So andthat that plays into the game mechanics
as well, which Joaman is moremore like hard hitting, spread attack,
damage type things, whereas Brinks ismore disabling attacks and I'll put you in
a submission. Hold add a deebuffthat type of thing. Love. I
love that dichotomy too. There's twodifferent, two different play styles. But
you also in the in the sectionswith Brink Logan, you have his brother

(34:35):
who is more of the hard hitter, so you still have that. And
then the sister shows up after awhile. Um, she's interesting. She
she what what sort of uh rpgarchetype? I guess were you thinking of
with her? Is she just morelike a like a supporting for the other
two. She's got a couple ofpretty good moves on her road. I
love the name saddle Sore. Ilove that it's star. Yeah. So

(35:00):
what were you thinking when you whenyou were developing the three family members next
to each other, trying to createa bit of a balance. So Selene,
we'll start with her. Um,she brings little sister and she's not
as involved with the family promotion.She's more of like an indie darling where
she, you know, runs thecircuit. She goes from promotion promotion promotion,
and she has this whole cowgirl gimmickwhich does fit some of the Canadian

(35:23):
styles as well stampede, that's right. And as far as like what RPG
class she would fall into, thereis a large playable cast and resequist.
It's twelve. Overall, she's whatI would consider more of like a dualist
almost, where she has high agilityand then a kind of high risk,
high reward maneuvers where a lot ofher move set is based around counters.

(35:47):
So you know, you can activatea counter like that's your turn, and
then you basically entice the enemy toattack you. And you can do that
with different equipment and manager abilities andwhat not to draw fire to one specific
character. And she has pound setup, you know, where someone rushes
at her, she'll interrupt their moveand then whip them into the ropes and
follow up with the back elbow orthings like that. Um, the trade

(36:07):
off is that she's kind of squishy. She is like low HP, low
defense, So it's it's again it'sall about that kind of like high risk,
high reward. And then how youplay into that, you know,
do you double down and equip allthose mechanics and all that equipment and those
managers to make those opportunities happen,or do you you know, take a
more measured approach and instead, youknow, put heavy armor or put a

(36:28):
manager that can buffer defenses. Thatso if those you know, those setups
fail, she won't be as asas damaged. Yeah yeah, yeah,
no, go for it. Iwas gonna say, just to I know,
we talked about it a little bit. For those listening who haven't played
the game yet, I haven't seena game yet. Managers are passive members
of your party who you can equip, essentially to give a buff to the

(36:50):
entire team. Give like like apark that runs, a passive park that
runs throughout the entire match. Thefirst one you run into is the Alligator.
His name alludes to him like slimy, slimy, I mean, uh
so, and then you'll find morethroughout the adventure that you can add to
your party. Equip one at thetime, right, it's one one propt
one from battle, uh and thenthey provide past so go ahead. Sorry
yeah yeah no. The manager isgreat. Um. Quick side note,

(37:13):
some of the legends you can actuallyunlock as uh as managers love that.
Yeah, I love that. That'scool, um cool, Yeah, that's
that's awesome. So I want toget back into real quick. Some of
the mechanics in the game. Iknow we talked about the pin first off,
but before we get into that,you mentioned equipping the abilities and things

(37:35):
like that. I love the gimmicksystem. I think that's a really cool
way to implement. Like if awrestler is a powerhouse, you can you
can know there are obvious, youknow, perks and downsides to that,
and they are incorporated here. Atechnician is one and and so talk to
me about developing that system and figuringout a way to get these different wrestling

(37:57):
market types into an RPG. Butnot like as a class system. It's
a little more to it than that. That's definitely where it started out,
the idea of JRPG classes. Youknow, you have your your wizard or
your fighter, your thief, etcetera. And that's reflected in the cast
a little bit like each one lendsthemselves to that to an extent. But
again, like that system is youknow, it's been it's been done,
everyone knows it, it's recognizable.How do we wrestlefy it? So wrestling

(38:21):
you have again these these sort ofarchetypes where the powerhouse, big strong guys,
the high flyer. You know,these lucolibre, you know, deathstifying,
moves off the top rope and whatnotum. So we tied that into the
other combat mechanics for wrestle quests,most notably the hype meter. The hype
meter is peers in every battle andit's an indication of the audience's engagement with

(38:42):
the fight. So if you comein and you're just tapping the attack button
all the time on autopilot, likeyou know, like you used to do
an RPGs UM, the audience isgoing to get bored and that meter drains
out and then your enemies get stronger. But if you approach combat with you
know, a little bit of strategy, you can have that meter sway in
your favor instead. When you do, you get more damage, better experience
points, better loot after the battle. So it's all ties back into controlling

(39:07):
that. And the hype types arehow you do that, you know,
and they determine how you generate height. So the powerhouse type will generate whenever
you attacks someone or whenever he youknow, chaos someone, the technician whenever
he nails a button prompt or inflictsa status effect. So it's the idea

(39:29):
beyond restification is a player agency.Too many times in RPGs, you have
a limited sort of way to expressyour move set, and there's a little
crossover between the characters, and insome cases it might even seem like,
well, all my characters interchangeable ata certain point, like they're they're more
or less they can all do thesame damage. There's no really, there's
no point to have anyone in myparty restile guests. We really try to

(39:52):
give the player the freedom to choosetheir party and then choose their strategy in
combat. So you can just gofor straight damage and hope Tom the hype
meter that way, or you know, you can choose your manager, choose
your equipment, choose your character.Is based on inflicting debuffs, and that's
a whole new strategy, and that'sa whole new way to get that hype
meter pumped up again. It's allabout giving players agency in a genre where

(40:15):
they typically don't have as much,right, Yeah, which makes a lot
of sense. Like I said,it feels more pro wrestling than it does
basic JRPT classes. And I findmyself going into party building, like when
I'm crafting it to go to thenext section of the game based on that,

(40:36):
Like, if this guy's going tobe the technician, I need to
make sure he's you know, builtlike a technician or a powerhouse and stuff
like that. I really do enjoythat. So this pin mechanic, right,
I have. My only criticism ofthis game so far is that I
want the pin mechanic to be asolid one two three, like it has
been my entire life watching wrestling.But it doesn't work like that. Sometimes

(40:58):
you can do a little one twoand then three, or if you're lucky
enough, you can get it aquick three count stuff like that. Um,
have you heard as other people saidthis to you about how it's not
the normal like normal like cadence,normal cadence, and whether or not it
took them some time to get usedto that. I think more so than
the idea of like the cadence ofthe one two three, we spent a

(41:22):
lot of time thinking, even backto the first Packs East where we kind
of like debuted wrestle Quest in twentytwenty two to now in twenty twenty three.
Even since then, like you know, it's come leaps and bounds,
but tweaking the difficulty has been themajor standing point there because you know,
as we play tests, we becomeexperts and we're able to nail it,
and then we show it live andpeople are like, wow, this is

(41:44):
hard, and you know, werealized that fifty percent of people struggle with
it, and then make it easierand you know, add some other things
to make it feel nicer. SoI think more so than matching that cadence,
it's been a it's a way ofmaking it have good game feel first.
That's been our priority. Yeah,I would I would say there were
a couple of times where, evenafter I got the flow of it,

(42:07):
where I would miss um mostly onthree I noticed a two count not on
purpose, I promise, and likeI was like, oh wow, I
missed that, and it caught meby surprise, so I was a little
more engaged and ready for the nexttime the pin being able to pin in
general, how did you decide whatenemies to pin and which enemies to not

(42:29):
Because some enemies I can just knockout, or some I can do this
pin mechanic. And are there benefitsto pinning as opposed to knocking out?
Because I think I also noticed ifI failed enough times, I just beat
them. So is there an addedbesides maybe like extra bonus at the end
to nailing that pin timing or didyou think did you ever float the idea

(42:52):
of the pin is the only wayyou can beat them? Yeah, So
it comes back to the idea aboutbalance for one. And then also,
I don't know if you'd call itquality of life or what, but if
we made every enemy pinnable, whichwas originally what we intended, we realized
battles would be way too long,sure, because it does add an extra

(43:14):
step where like, okay, nowthe enemy's down, Now I'm going to
go in and pin them. Sowe made it suggest enemies that are more
like wrestler wrestlers or wrestling based youwould have to pin and normal sort of
like grunt type enemies you can defeatnormally just by reducing their HP to zero.
So that was the first kind ofstep was like all right, like,
you know, how long do wewant this game to be? Because
if battles are too long you needto pin every character all the time,

(43:36):
it's going to drag out. Sowe tried to have a mix, especially
early on when you're just learning andthings like that mix of you know,
make it one to two rather thanall three are mandatory pins. The other
other aspect of that, too,is that we also wanted to have more
ways than just pinning to defeat thewrestlers. So many abilities are based around

(43:58):
finishing moves instead, where if youcan get your enemy fatigued we call it
is either when they're at low HPlike sub twenty percent, or if it's
just the thing where you can addit as a status effect. There's a
lot of moves will fatigue your enemy. You know. They're like moves that
aim towards the gut or things likethat. When they're in that fatigue state,

(44:19):
you can do a finishing move onthem which has a chance to automatically
koe them. So it gets backto again the idea of wrestling. Sometimes
it's not always like a pin howyou do it. Sometimes you know,
it's just you knock them out cold. So there's that, and that's a
whole other combat strategy to approach thoseenemies that need pinned. Yeah, okay,
yeah, I noticed like after awhile the pinning mechanic did become a

(44:43):
little more natural. I don't wantyou to think I'm still stuck in the
cadence, but I also completely agreewith you that if every enemy could be
pinned, the game would be bloated. So I'm glad whoever decided that,
whatever whatever team decided to pull backback on that have to show that restraint,
which I'm sure it was hard todo because it's a really cool thing.

(45:05):
That was who Arson shout Darson,um shout out there because that was
a that was the right call.Good. Yeah, I appreciate that.
Um So, last mechanical thing orlast thing I want to get into kay
mechanically, But and then I havetwo more two more questions, one mechanically
and one story mechanically. Tag teamstriple teams. Um, very cool way

(45:27):
to incorporate, uh, the tagteam feel by just setting up for a
tag team and then as long asthey're compatible being able to execute that team
move. What does that What doesit take to become compatible in order to
unlock those moves? Because I noticedin the beginning I didn't have had tea
people on my team, but therewasn't the tag team move there. Do

(45:49):
they have to level up so manytimes together in order to create that that
tag team edge or do they haveto be a certain level and then just
have those people in the party doesthat makes that Yeah, it's the latter.
You have to be at a certainlevel before they're available, and then
it depends on when those party membersare together, because they will some will

(46:09):
come and go, others will beavailable at only at certain parts. Eventually
you know you have all of themat your disposal. But it, yeah,
it depends basically on individual power leveland then story progress and then you're
making parties of three at once youhave more than three, do you have
to like eventually select Yeah, Sothat's actually one of the one of the
things we actually don't talk about toomuch in panels or at the booth and

(46:30):
whatnot. There are several dungeons thathave you splitting your party into multiple sub
teams. Interesting, so you know, like early on, I would say,
like you know, in the firstquarter of the game, and there's
one where you have two parties oftwo. But eventually you get to the
point where you have three parties ofthree and there's different things where you know,
it's separate tracks in the same dungeonwhere you have to solve tandem puzzles

(46:52):
and things like that, And onceyou get to that point, you can
also assign a manager to each oneof those parties. Obviously we had as
like save stuff like that for thelate game once you're used to all the
mechanics, but um, you doencounter those, you know, a handful
of times route. Just for anothersort of unique take on dungeons and RPGs,
are you switching at will? Oris there like you do an event

(47:13):
and then you switch the now you'reswitching at will because most of the time,
most of the time it requires likeyou know, you'll have Team A
you know, up on a catwalksor something, but there's something blocking their
way and teamb down in the groundcan deactivate that and vice versa. I
got it. Okay, well that'scool. That's cool. Complex dungeons in

(47:34):
my wrestle quest, yes please,um yeah, that's exciting cool all right.
Uh So, my one question aboutstory is I'm gonna go I'm gonna
talk about Randy Santos for a secondbecause in my written preview, which you
can read at mmorpg dot com forthose listening, went up last Thursday the
twelfth, I think it was,um, you mentioned he's always ink fabe
and there's dialogue between him and othercharacters, which someone mentions the writers and

(47:57):
he's like, writers, what areyou talking about? And things like that.
I think the idea and if youdon't want to talk about this,
I understand of exploring that moment inevery wrestling's fans life where they realize what's
actually happening, right, Like thatmoment of realization that well it's not it's

(48:20):
not real, or it's it's scriptedor whatever. I don't think using were
fake. I'm sure you guys don'teither. Um, is that something you
plan to explore or is is thatnot something you wanted to do in this
first girl round? I love thatidea. I love if that's something you're
gonna do, that's that's cool asshit. Um, I got to beat

(48:40):
myself. Oh but I just Iwanted to. I wanted to make sure
I asked about that because it's somethingthat definitely stuck out to me. Definitely.
Yeah. I mean, not notto give too much away, but
again, that's Randy's you know,entire character. You know, is is
this idea of Kfabe? You knowit's for him, it's so real and
that and this this child I wouldlike innocence he has with it's not even

(49:01):
so much highlike innocence it's more justlike this purity he has with the sport
and the idea of being a hero. And obviously as he gets deeper in
the industry and he's going on thisjourney, that that idea, that innocence,
that purity gets challenged again and again. So eventually it comes down to
the point of him, yeah,sort of having that moment and then it's

(49:21):
like, well, where do yougo from there? What do you do
with that? So, again don'twant to get too much away, but
I think you'll be pleased when youhave a chance to play the entire game.
Awesome, that's exciting. So SanDiego Comic Con this week, and
then we're a couple of weeks outfrom launch. August eighth. I keep
wanting to say ninth. It's notthe ninth, it's the eighth. August
eighth is when you can play wrestleQuest on everything even Oh, another thing

(49:45):
I wanted to ask you about.You guys are coming to Netflix. You
will be mobile via Netflix. Youwill be exclusive to the Netflix app.
So you load up the Netflix Appleon your phone, you find wrestle Quest,
you download it to your iPad,your iPhone ORR and and you can
play Wrestle Quest on the go.Um, talk to me a little bit
about how that came to be.I know that's relatively new. Last couple

(50:07):
of months. That was I thinkit was announced. What may I want
to say May or June that actuallyhappened. What about Netflix as a mobile
carrier or mobile carrier, a mobilehost for your game stuck out to you
not only you know, as apublisher, but also as like an alternative
to self publishing, if that makessense. You know, they had a

(50:28):
kind of a call out throughout theindustry looking for like narrative driven, like
story driven game projects, and somebodywho was working on press for Wrestle Quests
on the behalf of sky betten wasjust working with them in like a collaborative
way of saying, hey, likethere's this game we think he's check out.

(50:49):
It's called Wrestle Quests. Here's here'sthe hook, and here's the art.
And they just embraced it right awayand they were just really excited about
adding it into the fold. Sowe're you know, for us, it's
um, it's a way to getwrestle Requests and more hands, more people.
You know, they brought more languages, more regions. Um, you
know, I can't wait to seehow like that platform develops. In general.

(51:13):
I think I think there's a lotof new momentum and like the subscription
like World on the Future, LikeI think I mentioned a lot of games
coming that way. Um, wedidn't see it as something that takes away
anything either from the wrestling fans.I have to imagine a lot of folks
who are playing on mobile aren't aren'tplaying on Switch and vice versa. So
you know, it was kind oflike serendipitous. I guess, you know,

(51:36):
some folks who were just wrestling questsfans brought it up and they kind
of sought it out. Yeah,now will that be touchscreen play control with
play both deadly touch screenplay? I'mnot actually sure. I don't think there's
controller um functionality for the mobile port. We're kind of like watching them build

(51:57):
the Netflix platform. So we're likedriving the car while the back the cars
being assembled. Right. Interesting,It's like it's like they're like I just
just shard that this morning with Zacas an analogy for how we operate Megact
driving with the car still no doubt. But but it's funny because like the
you know, the Neflix Games teamwas like five people and now it's like

(52:17):
fifty people or something. So they'rejust actively adding in all these layers and
layers of of kind of like feedbackof like how fans are responding and how
to make bigger, better games andwhere they goes or we're excited to be
part of it at this phase becausethey just stacked up a ton of talent
and do all sorts of cool stuff. So it's it's been interesting to watch
though, because even since we startedwrestle requests for the Netflix platform to now

(52:38):
that platform, that team has developeda great deal. Yeah, have they
been hands on in your or theyjust kind of let Yeah, they're super
hands on. Yeah, they havelike a they have like a high high
expectation for a mobile expertise, whichwe don't have, like we're not a
mobile games company, right, Soso that's been awesome. Um, they
definitely have like a north Star qualityStandard two which made it so pretty good.

(53:00):
Awesome. Well, gentlemen, Ireally appreciate your time. I know
you're getting ready to go out toSan Diego, so the fact that you're
able to sit down with me talkabout your great game very much appreciated August
eighth, Wrestle quest on Everything.If you haven't pre ordered, or you're
not ahead of the game yet,get on it. Because if you're a
wrestling fan, an RPG and fanboth or neither, I do think there

(53:22):
is something for you here. AndZac Manko and James Degan, I can
talk to you guys forever, butI know our time is coming up soon.
Wanted to make sure I said aproper farewell and thank you for coming
on, very excited to play yourgame, and good luck with everything.
I guess that's all I think Ican say. Thanks Jason, thanks for
having us one wrestling fan to another. Yeah. Always a pleasure, always

(53:45):
a pleasure. Thanks guys, Andwith that that is the end of episode
number one thirty four of The ChiefStakes The Controllers podcast presented by Fox PHL
The Gambler one or two point fiveFM fourteen eight am. iHeart Radio.
And as I say every week,if you're listening to these words, you've
reached the end of the episode.I very much appreciate that you have done
so. It always means a lotto me that everyone listens to this show.
When I get to talk to reallycool people, or if you just

(54:07):
listen to my voice for a now, and with that, I wish you
a fantastic weekend and even better weekright behind it, and I will be
back again next week with Moore onche Steaks and Contract. Goodbye,