We’re joined by Mike Papantonio, renowned trial attorney, legal analyst, and bestselling author. A senior partner at Levin Papantonio Rafferty, Mike has led high-profile legal battles against Big Pharma, tobacco companies, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers. His latest novel, The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller that delves into the shadowy world of Pharmacy Benefit Managers (PBMs) and their role in skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real-life courtroom experience, Papantonio blends legal insight with suspense to shine a light on urgent consumer issues.
📚 Learn more: www.levinlaw.com | mikpapantonio.com
📲 Follow: Facebook | Twitter/X @AmericasLawyer | YouTube: Mike Papantonio
Anthony Morris is an accomplished double bass musician, professor, and author of An Epigrammatist’s Epic Edification. Blending a deep love of music with a sharp ear for wordplay, Anthony invites us on a playful and thoughtful journey through sound and speech. His book is packed with original tongue twisters that are as fun to say as they are to stumble through — perfect for kids, families, educators, and anyone who loves a good linguistic challenge. In addition to writing, Anthony is a Professor of Double Bass at Brooklyn College and offers music lessons both in-person and virtually. He also brings his creativity to life through greeting cards made from tongue twisters, available to preview on his Instagram.
📘 An Epigrammatist’s Epic Edification is available now:
👉 Buy the book on Amazon
📲 Connect with Anthony Morris:
📧 Email (for lessons): anfitrisaty@yahoo.com
📸 Instagram: @twistedtonguetales
📺 YouTube: Anthony Morris on YouTube
📚 Learn more: www.levinlaw.com | mikpapantonio.com
📲 Follow: Facebook | Twitter/X @AmericasLawyer | YouTube: Mike Papantonio
Anthony Morris is an accomplished double bass musician, professor, and author of An Epigrammatist’s Epic Edification. Blending a deep love of music with a sharp ear for wordplay, Anthony invites us on a playful and thoughtful journey through sound and speech. His book is packed with original tongue twisters that are as fun to say as they are to stumble through — perfect for kids, families, educators, and anyone who loves a good linguistic challenge. In addition to writing, Anthony is a Professor of Double Bass at Brooklyn College and offers music lessons both in-person and virtually. He also brings his creativity to life through greeting cards made from tongue twisters, available to preview on his Instagram.
📘 An Epigrammatist’s Epic Edification is available now:
👉 Buy the book on Amazon
📲 Connect with Anthony Morris:
📧 Email (for lessons): anfitrisaty@yahoo.com
📸 Instagram: @twistedtonguetales
📺 YouTube: Anthony Morris on YouTube
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, Welcome to What's going on a show about
making a difference in our lives and our communities. I'm
Lorraine ballat Morrow.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Self centered Seth's second best September Septuagenarian sex Tips.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
That's renaissance man Anthony Morris, who has not only written
a book about tongue twisters, he's also an accomplished double
based musician. But first. Mike Papentonio is a renowned trial lawyer,
media personality, and best selling author not for exposing corporate
corruption through both his legal work and legal thrillers. A
(00:35):
senior partner at Levin Papentonio, He's fought high profile battles
against big pharma, the tobacco industry, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers.
His latest novel, The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller
that uncovers the dark world of pharmacy benefit managers will
refer to them from now on as PBMs and their
(00:57):
impact on skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real life cases,
pat Antonio craft's a suspenseful, high stake story that reflects
urgent issues facing consumers today. Well, I want to thank
you so much for coming back and talking about Your
latest book, Mike the Middleman, delves into the hidden world
of PBMs and pharmaceutical pricing. What drew you to this
(01:20):
particular subject for your latest novel.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I've brought a case against the PBM industry. It's a
national case.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Typically what I do. These books that I.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Produced, there's seven of them, and they're all based on
actual cases that I've handled. The tobacco case was that originated,
if you can imagine right here in Pensacola. The opioid case,
the national opioid case originated here human trafficking. So the
firm is not a one eight hundred car crash case.
It's a firm that specializes in these really unique kind
(01:52):
of social, bigger social issues. We filed as an anti
trust case, Lorraine, because we saw that the companies had
very clear plan on how to mark up insulin one thousand,
five hundred percent and then his highest two thousand, five
hundred percent. So we brought a case against him, and
I'm very optimistic that it's going to go well. But
(02:14):
the PBMs, the problem, Lorraine is people simply don't understand it.
If you ask ten people what it is, they would
have no idea. And unfortunately, it's costing them forty or
fifty percent higher money on every prescription that's been filled.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I equate it.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
In the book Middleman, I really use the mobster structure
one of the lead characters, and here is a mobster
from Ireland who comes to the United States and says,
gee whiz, this is better than I could do with
cocaine heroin. Whatever we sell, I can do better with
the legal pharmacy industry. So he moves into the PBM industry,
(02:51):
and unfortunately it's a cabal where kickbacks take place, extortion
takes place, and I trust takes place, price gal takes place.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
And the awful thing.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
About it is nobody even knows what's happening. With this book,
you're able to I feel like you're able to read
a good story. It's definitely a page turner, and at
the same time, you come away with information that you
had no idea really existed. And if you google any
part of the actual structure of the PBM and the
discussions about PBM in this book, you'll find every bit
(03:23):
of it is absolutely true, and it's just a reflection
of the lawsuit that we're bringing.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
But it's fictionalized.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
You know. The murders that take place and those types
of things that you know that's part of the fiction process.
People listening to this right now would have no idea
that for the last eleven years, their co pays on
pharmaceuticals have gone up every single year. And the reason
that happens is because the PBM is what we call
the reason I call it middleman. It's interesting, I brought
(03:52):
the lawsuit and we use the term middleman in that lawsuit.
New York Times picked that up and they wrote an
entire exposee on the middleman, and that's the first time
that there's ever been any serious discussion about PBM and
corporate media. What they do is, you have this entity,
the pharmaceutical maker has got to go through the PBM
(04:13):
as the middleman before that drug is then used at
the pharmacy. What the PBM does, It says a couple
of things. First of all, we're going to set the
price of the drug, and they know the higher they
set the price, the bigger.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
What they call rebate. It's nothing more the kickback.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
It's a kickback that they get from the pharmaceutical company.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
That's the first thing they do. The second thing they
do is.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
If Pfizer, for example, produces a new pill, but there's
five other pills that do exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
The same thing.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
The PBM makes the decision, unilateral decision on which one
of those pills is going to be paid for by insurance,
you understand it.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So they're very powerful, they have a lot of influence,
and they're basically the average person has no idea. I
wonder if you could talk about how these PBMs came
to be in the position that they are and so powerful.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
That is a wonderful question, because if you really dig
into which we've done, they just appeared virtually out of nowhere.
You had the insurance industry and the manufacturing industry. There
was a time when we were actually asking serious questions
why is medicine so expensive?
Speaker 4 (05:21):
And so all of a sudden they just appear. They
literally they're on the scene. It's a cooperative effort by the.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Pharmacy industry and the manufacturing industry and the insurance industry,
and so all of a sudden, Their talking point, Lorraine,
is that we're here to help. We're going to keep
the prices down. And as you might expect with any
organization that's completely utterly unregulated, these folks said, Wow, this
is really a good opportunity, and we're going to jack
(05:50):
up the prices of medicine. We're going to get kickbacks
for doing it. We're going to extort the manufacturers, and
if they don't play by our rules, we're not going
to put them on the phone tmulary list to where
insurance won't pay for their product. That's kind of the
quick ten thousand foot of where they came from and
how it happened. There's no legitimate route to say. As
a matter of fact, the first time I've even heard
(06:12):
oddly enough. I mean, you know, they've been around for
a long time. You have administration after administration that's ignored
the impact that they're having. Right now, this is the
first administration where they've even talked about, you know, we
got to do something about PBMs. So I'm optimistic something
may be done, But in the meantime, they continue to
price gouge. In this book The Middleman, for example, I
(06:34):
talk about how all the way back to the beginning
of insulin, insulin was developed in Canada and it was
developed for university taxpayers paid.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Is typical in the pharmaceutical industry.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Taxpayers pay for research and development, not the company, and
then the company after the product is developed, comes and
buys it and jacks up the price astronomically. In this situation,
there was a Canadian doctor scientist came up with how
to administer insulin, what's the mixture.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Of that type of thing? He sold it to Canada.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
He sold it to the university system in the medical
system in Canada for one dollar, and then all of
the flying monkeys from Wall Street came in and said, hey,
we want to buy this, and they ever since then.
So it costs two dollars to make two.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Dollars to produce this product.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
In the United States, they sell it anywhere from ninety
eight dollars to one hundred and twenty five dollars, and
that same product sells in Australia, in Canada for seven dollars.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Wow. The FTC recently revealed that major PBMs dramatically mark
up drug prices, as you've already explained, leading to billions
and excess costs for consumers. What you see is the
best way for the public to push back against these prices.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Right now is the first time, Lorraine, that I've seen
momentum right now, as a matter of fact, I think
the New York Times might have shamed the rest of
corporate media into paying at time, why would corporate media
come out against PBMs or the pharmaceutical industry. There's no reason,
because every eight minutes on your television there's a new ad.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Are you sad?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Are you walking slow? Well, we've got the medicine for you.
So it's an industry that brings in tens of billions
of dollars into corporate media.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Right, so we're not going to get it.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
We have no success in that regard, just like just
like I experienced with both tobacco and opioids, I had
no success getting the corporate media to respond.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
And so it was ground swell.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Where a couple of a couple of outlets said, you know,
it's time for us to really pay attention to it,
and they basically shamed the rest of corporate media.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I don't know that you can do that.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
With this case because the money is so huge. I
always believe, and I've you know, having practice as a
trial lawyer for forty two years and been in courtrooms
all over this country. I see when when a jury
finally gets it and they say, you know, we're really
being victimized. Oftentimes, those are the very people that create
letter writing campaigns to the local newspaper, and there every
(09:08):
day there's a new letter from somebody saying this is wrong.
We have to do something about it. The problem is, Lorraine,
the cavalry is not coming. Okay, there's no cavalry here.
I guess we're the closest thing to a cavalry in
the sense that if we get a result and we
hammer these companies like I believe we're going to do,
I think that might.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Cause some change.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I'm optimistic that I keep hearing, you know, a little
bits and pieces coming out of this administration. We need
to do something about PBMs. That could happen. I use
the gangster profile in this book. Connor Devlin is an
Irish gangster. He was raised by gangsters as a child.
He doesn't have a mother and father and these group
(09:51):
of gangsters raise them and they're running basically, they're running
big swaths of.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Ireland a gangster system.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Well, when he comes here, he says, takes that and
supplants it into the same thing the PBMs are doing,
and it's almost unrecognizable. You almost look at Okay, here's
Connor Devlin's program, here's wall Street's program. And so you
see this interesting confrontation between Connor Devlin and wall Street
and you don't know who you're pulling for. Connor Devlin
(10:20):
is a wholly awful person. He's total a totally awful person.
But then you're looking at and you say, well, you know,
wall Street.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
I don't know. It's a close call.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
You know. And Mike is a trial lawyer. You fought
some of the biggest corporate battles. And I have to
tell you that your last book on human trafficking, I
learned so much. I had no idea the implications of
corporate America in human trafficking. And so I love the
fact that you combine this fictional approach but with a
(10:53):
lot of research and a lot of real life information
in it. And I wonder if you can talk a
little more about how your legal experience has shaped the
storytelling that you present.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Well, basically, I'm a trial lawyer, okay, And that's all
I've ever done, Lorraine. I try cases for lawyers all
over the country. They hire me to come in if
they've got a project that usually involves pharmaceuticals, that usually
involves a corporation that's that's destroying an ecosystem with chemicals,
or might involve mom and Pop losing millions of dollars
(11:26):
in their pension programs because of something that's been done
on Wall Street. Those are the only kinds of cases
I handle. And as you might imagine, it's not like
one eight hundred car crash. The people that you're dealing
with are They're awful people. I'd love to say, I
hate to cover it with one big swath, but go ahead.
That's been my That's been my but that's been my
(11:47):
experience most of the time. I tell people when I'm
in trial or when I'm in a deposition, I look
at that person across the table from me, and they're
you know, they're CEOs with the silver hair and you know,
the Armani suits, and they don't look like they have
a criminal element to them. They certainly don't look like sociopaths.
(12:07):
But at the same time, after doing this for forty
two years and taking hundreds and hundreds of these depositions
at the very highest level, I always say, if I
had a DSM five in front of me and I
was doing check check check filling the checks, is this
person a sociopath every single time.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yes, they would be a sociopath.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
So it sounds like an overstatement, but it really isn't
it started. I really started noticing it back in the
tobacco days. By the time you had opioids come along,
you had an industry that's killing one hundred and fifty
people a day conservatively, and doing that for almost twenty years.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
I look at this a little differently.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I look at it with a little more rage maybe
than most people do, because I'm in the center of
the fight. I've always been, really, in a matter of fact,
in the middlemen. I have a real, I think an
important DISCUSSI why is it the Department of Justice doesn't
step up and do what they're supposed to do? Okay,
why is it that the CEO that this character, Connor Devlin,
(13:10):
he's very sophisticated, all right. He's six foot four, white hair,
impeccable speech, incredible education that the gangsters gave him when
he was in Ireland. You know, he was very, very
sophisticated education. But he doesn't look like a gangster. He
doesn't look like a sociopath. And so I run into
that all the time. Lorraine, like the book you're talking
(13:33):
about in human trafficking.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
My god, you should have been in the room when I.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Was taking the depositions of the people that were financing
all that, and you look.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Across the table that you say, really, really, they're allowed
to go on.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
We don't purp walk them because they don't look like
a kid on the street corner with a hoodie selling
five ounces of marijuana. These people are committing manslaughter. That's
no exact say in the opioid industry. If I were
to give you the equivalent, what is the definition of
manslaughter from a legal analysis, Well, it's that reckless indifference
(14:09):
for human life. That's what gets you to the manslaughter threshold.
Right here was a company in the opioid industry in
the book that I wrote on that was called Law
and Addiction. I think you'll enjoy it if I were
to say, you know, Lorraine to go, I'm going to
drink a fifth of Jack Daniels and then I'm going
to drive ninety miles an hour through a school zone
(14:30):
and if I hit one of those children, that's manslaughter.
I go to prison for a very long time. Thankfully,
we have this legal fiction in our mind, this cultural
fiction to where g They're from Harvard, they have an MBA,
they graduated at the top of their class. They have
impeccable speech, they can talk about the classics. They love opera.
(14:54):
They wear Armani suits, they have a Rolex watch. They
drove up in a Bentley. So all of us of
a sudden we look at them differently, don't we. We say, no,
they're not a criminal. There's nothing sociopathic about them. But
in my experience, and you must believe me, in forty
two years doing this the ugliest cases in this country,
(15:14):
this is what I come away with. And my wife
says to me, she says, Mike, take off that cynical
hat sometimes and let's look at let's look the rosier
and glasses. But inevitably, when I'm writing these books, all
of that comes surging.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
It just comes rolling at me.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
And I say, how can I not talk about these issues?
So I try to round out all of those issues,
and all these books, I think the Middleman I really
accomplish that.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
But it's a great story, Lorraine.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
It's not all hell and damnation. It's a mixture, a
little bit of a love story that goes bad. It
talks about the humanity that we should expect from people
who are at the very top of the pecking order,
that we should expect more humanity from them, and we
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
You have shined the light on so many different is,
including big tobacco, human trafficking, the weapons manufacturers, and of
course the latest big pharma. The Middleman is a gripping
legal thriller that explores the dark world of pharmacy benefit managers.
And if you think that's not sexy and exciting, well
(16:17):
think again, because this book will tell you all about
this hidden element that causes the prices of our drugs
to rise beyond all reason. But it does it in
a way that both entertains and educates. Mike Papantonio, renowned
trial lawyer, media personality and best selling author. Thank you
(16:38):
for all you do, Lorraine.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you. I've
been looking forward to this interview.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Today we are joined by Anthony Morris, an accomplished double
based musician and author of a book, A fascinating one
called and let me see if I can pronounce this correctly.
An epic rammaticists epic edification, blending his passion for rhythm
and language. Anthony invites readers on a playful journey through
sound and speech. His book is packed with original tongue
(17:08):
twisters that are fun to say as they are to
stumble through. Perfect for kids, families, educators, and anyone who
loves a good linguistic challenge. Anthony, thank you so much
for joining us here today.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I wish we were doing video because you are very
sharply dressed. But all that aside, just imagine a very
sharply dressed person here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
How did you go from double based performance to writing
this epigrammaticists epic edification book.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Well, it started as a game on the iPad. I
like building simulation cities and things like that. So with
this particular game, which has to be online, you have
to communicate with other people who you do not know
to get your raw materials to build your city.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
This is like SimCity, right, absolutely, and I love SimCity right.
And it's a multiplayer type thing too.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Is that particular game, Megopolis is the game of the game.
Oh yeah, Megopolis is the game that I started writing
these tongue twisters on. But sim City is a single
player and I'm selfish, so I like to play by myself.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well, but people started taking note of the fact that
you were writing these terrific tongue twisters.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, they did, and so one person started to write
different funny things and everything. I said, you know something
that's pretty cool, so let me try my hand at it.
So I started tongue twisting the days of the week.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Okay, give us an example.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Oh, you're going to kill me now. Well, these are
some of my early tongue twisters, which I'll stumble through
on the radio for your pleasure, for your listening pleasure.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Here we go more mystified muted monks may make Monday
maggotty moose meat muffin madness mournfully mandatory.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that without
without stumbling. I think I might have some difficulty. Well,
that is very cool. So you got some feedback that
these tongue twisters were kind of cool, and so people
were encouraging you to do more. So you did more
and more and more, and then what happened.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Well, on this game, a lady from England, she said,
you know something, these are these are wonderful. You should
not post them here anymore. You should put them in
a book. And so I said to her, that's the
wonderful idea. So I stopped posting them. But as I
continued to play the game anyhow, I found that people
had my tongue twisters in their inboxes for weeks and
(19:33):
months afterwards, and they saved them. You have a choice
of erasing them, but a lot of people saved my stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
So basically this is something that happened at like two
am in the morning where I just felt, okay, let
me right. It's like the witching hour, whereas nothing is
going on, it's very quiet and I can really think
about different things. So it started off with the days
of the week, then the months of the year. I said,
you know something, how about I turned this into reading cards.
(20:00):
So I would, you know, get people's names and get
what they do. If they're a musician or a radio
personality like such as yourself, I would get their birthday,
which is their month in the day that you know,
they wouldn't have to give me their age. Of course,
I can tongue twist that too. I mean, as you know,
if you're eighty years old, you're that's an octogenarian, you know,
and all the other all those sort of classifications that
(20:22):
I can tongue twist get the day that their birthday
falls on, and I would also tongue twist their zodiac sign.
So that turned into a person getting about maybe five
to seven tongue twisters in their card.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Well, that is really delightful. I'm sure that people really
appreciated getting those cards. But you again, you wrote a book,
you compiled these tongue twisters, and I'm wondering, there's something
kind of musical about the tongue twisters, whether you were
saying them out loud or saying them in your in
your brain. How did your musical background help you shape
the rhythm of your writing.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Well, I see I say this, and I tell people
my tongue twisters aren't really meant to be said quickly
because they are short stories, just like music is a story.
So I encourage people, yes, they can do whatever they
want with them, obviously, but to really understand what they're
saying in their fiction as well, you know, recite them slowly,
(21:16):
because every tongue twister is a story in and of herself,
and then you put them together and they create a
world that is about that person. Now, the tongue twisters
may not actually be true because they're fictional, but there
are certain facts and these tunk twitschres that are true,
and that's what you cannot buy in stores.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Well, that's extraordinary. Tongue twisters are kind of tricky. What
makes a good one in your opinion? And can you
share one of your favorite ones from your book? Oh
my gosh, putting you on the spot here, Yes you are.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I have a lot. I used of my earlier ones
because my later ones.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Are very are they very intricate.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Very interesting. I would have to practice them. I mean
I wrote them, and of course I practiced them as
I was writing, because they have to make sense. I
mean before I get into trying to embarrass myself on radio.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
That's why we're here.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Exactly exactly. I did have to, you know, rehearse them
and everything. And then of course I give I sent
this book to an editor, and of course it was
panned because he didn't understand what this was about. And
that's okay, you know, he just thought that I was
throwing words together. No, these words they have to make
sense grammatically. All the syntax has to make sense and everything,
(22:31):
and I recite them over and over and over and
over again. So they're very difficult. And there's so many,
and there's so many, there are so many.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Well, this is a far cry from Sally Cells seashells
at the Sea Shore, which I barely made that. So yeah,
some twisters are in fact what they are. They do
twist your tongues and they're very easy to stumble over,
and children love them and do.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And the thing is, children don't care if these words
have eight to ten or more syllables. They don't care
like we care. We care about embarrassing ourselves. The kids, oh,
I want to do this. This is a challenge for me.
And so they will pick up these words that are
grades ahead of them and they'll do it. And this
is what it's all about, having fun reading also strengthening
(23:18):
your linguistic prowess.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
If I may say, yeah, I can imagine this would
actually be a really wonderful way to encourage kids to read,
because it makes reading really fun and enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Absolutely one of the ones that you read. Oh boy,
this is going to be really difficult.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
All right, let's hear it, let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Okay, here we go. My mouth is already tiredless looking
at it self centered seths second best, September, septuagenarian, sex
tet seldom, sex tupletate, sex egenarians, sect tuplets, seventeenth sesquid,
(23:59):
Oh my goodness, sesscot padilion sentence session.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Okay, I knew some of the words there.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
My goodness, of course hard. Yes, I picked that one
just to embarrass myself.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I think you did quite well. I don't know how
I would well. Let me ask you this, do you
test these tongue twisters out on anyone while writing? Nope,
it's on me, It's all on you. And then were
there any that were too hard to include?
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I put them all in. My main thing is they
must make sense. I know they're fictional, but they must
make sense. I look at Star Trek, Yes, okay, Star Trek.
We didn't have spaceships flying from you know, planet to planet,
but somehow it made sense enough for people to watch
it and accept it. You know, So with this, this
(24:50):
is also fiction, but it has to make sense grammatically.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, well, I'd like to pivot a little bit and
talk a bit about the other side of what you
do and that is you are an accomplished double bass musician.
I had a chance to see a picture of you
with this beautiful instrument that was taller than you, and
you're pretty tall. Tell us about your career as a
double basis, because that's not something you usually see people.
(25:16):
Oh yeah, I like the violin or the viola or
even the cello, but a double bass that is quite
an instrument and quite an accomplishment to be so good
at it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Thank you, Thank you very much. Well. To start off,
I almost didn't get to play my instrument because there
were only four instruments when I started, which was the
fifth grade, and there are five of us who wanted
to play it, and so the teacher kept asking, come on, guys,
who wants to play another interest? We don't have enough
instruments in the building. And so someone finally relented and
(25:45):
played another instrument. So fifth grade through seventh grade there
was the four of us. By the time eighth grade
came in the same building, there were only two of
us playing. By the time high school came, I was
the only one playing from my grade for my class.
I picked the instrument because of the size and the sound. Now,
the thing is As I got older, I fell also
(26:06):
in love with the pipe organ, and so when I
was looking for basses to buy, I was always looking
for an instrument that would mimic that sound of the
pipe organ the low bass pipes. So I know it
would be sacrileagues for me to say it, but I
enjoy listening to pipe organ more so than my own instrument.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Well, your own instrument is quite extraordinary. Tell us about it,
because it's not something you get off the shelf.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right exactly. Yes, yes, that's nothing you would find in Walmart. Well,
my particular instrument is a three hundred year old Dutch instrument.
Now it was sold to me as a two hundred
year old German instrument, which was a bit more common,
but Dutch instruments like that are less common, so.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I'm kind of looked out there.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I did, and as far as price is concerned too,
because the dealer did not know exactly what he had
to so that was.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
A good bargain exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So I said, yes, I'll take it, because when I
first bought it, he said, you know something, Yes it
may be this, but it's it's not that good, and
he didn't know what he had so I took it
to other people and say, yeah, that's not what that is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
And then when you found out what it was, three
hundred years old and quite a vented, beautiful instrument, then
that must have been a really nice surprise.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Oh yes it was. He didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Who cares about him? Exactly exactly, I.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
See you by exactly what I got this instrument. That's
around twenty oh two. I believe I purchased it. It's
been a love affair ever since.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, it is absolutely gorgeous. And you play in various orchestras,
you teach tell us a little more about all that.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So I purchased this instrument while I was supping with
the New York Philharmonic. That was between nineteen ninety nine
and two thousand and six. Also during that time I
was working on Broadway. Really yep. I did some Broadway
shows including Titanic, High Society, Beauty and The Beast, Fan
of the Opera, things like that. But after the New Yorkuleharmonic,
(28:10):
I started playing with other orchestras like New Jersey Symphony.
I played with many others, many chamber orchestras. In one
particular orchestra which I am the personnel manager of is
the Harlem Chamber Players, So it's a shout out to
Harlem Chamber Players. Come see our concert and come check
out our website there Harlem Chamber Players dot org. But yeah,
I play in many, many different orchestras and also the
(28:32):
Little Orchestra Society, which I such just started playing with
about a couple of years ago. So it's a really busy,
busy schedule.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You are a neclecting dude. Not only are you an
extraordinary double bassed musician, you are the author of this
book and epigrammaticist epic edification not too bad.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Right, exactly. I think it's an epigrammatist.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think that's epigrammatis epic edifications, ma'am, yes, ma'am. Well, thankfully,
I'm not going to try to accomplish any of these
tongue twisters, because you know you did that so beautifully,
and I myself, although I do talk for a living,
I could see myself beautifully. Thank you, thank you. But
I well, you know what, let me try, are you sure? Yes?
(29:17):
Pick one out for me. I'm going to try, and
you know I may do terribly, but I am game,
So pick something not too hard, but not too easy.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Okay, how about this w one. One of the things,
one of the things I try to do is I
try to tongue twist using all of the alphabets.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Oh boy, this is this one? Well groomed? That one
right there? Okay, all right, here we go, Here we go,
and three two one well groomed Westernized renegades repetitiously rectify
Wednesday's well toweight Wet Bags Wedgie retrospective webcast.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That is delicious. That is great.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Well, that was fun. That was fun. Boy. I'm gonna
have to read a bunch of those. I think they're
very relaxing.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
They can be once you get past how are you
putting the accents where they need to be?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
All right?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yes, you know that's what throws people. And that's the
game of English.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
That is the game of English. I love words, and
if you are a lover of words, you want to
check this book out. And epigrammatisis epigrammatist, epigrammatist, and epigrammatist
epic edification written by Anthony Morris, who's also an accomplished
double based musician. He is an extraordinarily gifted musician, but
(30:32):
also a gifted writer of ton Twisters. Thank you so much,
thank you, thank you very much. You can listen to
all of today's interviews by going to our station website
and typing in keyword Community. You can also listen on
the iHeartRadio app yey Words Philadelphia Community Podcast. Follow me
on Twitter and Instagram at Lorraine Ballard. I'm Lorraine Ballard
(30:53):
MORL and I stand for service to our community and
media that empowers. What will you stand for? You've been
listening ley to what's going on, and thank you
Good morning, Welcome to What's going on a show about
making a difference in our lives and our communities. I'm
Lorraine ballat Morrow.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Self centered Seth's second best September Septuagenarian sex Tips.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
That's renaissance man Anthony Morris, who has not only written
a book about tongue twisters, he's also an accomplished double
based musician. But first. Mike Papentonio is a renowned trial lawyer,
media personality, and best selling author not for exposing corporate
corruption through both his legal work and legal thrillers. A
(00:35):
senior partner at Levin Papentonio, He's fought high profile battles
against big pharma, the tobacco industry, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers.
His latest novel, The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller
that uncovers the dark world of pharmacy benefit managers will
refer to them from now on as PBMs and their
(00:57):
impact on skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real life cases,
pat Antonio craft's a suspenseful, high stake story that reflects
urgent issues facing consumers today. Well, I want to thank
you so much for coming back and talking about Your
latest book, Mike the Middleman, delves into the hidden world
of PBMs and pharmaceutical pricing. What drew you to this
(01:20):
particular subject for your latest novel.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I've brought a case against the PBM industry. It's a
national case.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
Typically what I do. These books that I.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Produced, there's seven of them, and they're all based on
actual cases that I've handled. The tobacco case was that originated,
if you can imagine right here in Pensacola. The opioid case,
the national opioid case originated here human trafficking. So the
firm is not a one eight hundred car crash case.
It's a firm that specializes in these really unique kind
(01:52):
of social, bigger social issues. We filed as an anti
trust case, Lorraine, because we saw that the companies had
very clear plan on how to mark up insulin one thousand,
five hundred percent and then his highest two thousand, five
hundred percent. So we brought a case against him, and
I'm very optimistic that it's going to go well. But
(02:14):
the PBMs, the problem, Lorraine is people simply don't understand it.
If you ask ten people what it is, they would
have no idea. And unfortunately, it's costing them forty or
fifty percent higher money on every prescription that's been filled.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I equate it.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
In the book Middleman, I really use the mobster structure
one of the lead characters, and here is a mobster
from Ireland who comes to the United States and says,
gee whiz, this is better than I could do with
cocaine heroin. Whatever we sell, I can do better with
the legal pharmacy industry. So he moves into the PBM industry,
(02:51):
and unfortunately it's a cabal where kickbacks take place, extortion
takes place, and I trust takes place, price gal takes place.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
And the awful thing.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
About it is nobody even knows what's happening. With this book,
you're able to I feel like you're able to read
a good story. It's definitely a page turner, and at
the same time, you come away with information that you
had no idea really existed. And if you google any
part of the actual structure of the PBM and the
discussions about PBM in this book, you'll find every bit
(03:23):
of it is absolutely true, and it's just a reflection
of the lawsuit that we're bringing.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
But it's fictionalized.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
You know. The murders that take place and those types
of things that you know that's part of the fiction process.
People listening to this right now would have no idea
that for the last eleven years, their co pays on
pharmaceuticals have gone up every single year. And the reason
that happens is because the PBM is what we call
the reason I call it middleman. It's interesting, I brought
(03:52):
the lawsuit and we use the term middleman in that lawsuit.
New York Times picked that up and they wrote an
entire exposee on the middleman, and that's the first time
that there's ever been any serious discussion about PBM and
corporate media. What they do is, you have this entity,
the pharmaceutical maker has got to go through the PBM
(04:13):
as the middleman before that drug is then used at
the pharmacy. What the PBM does, It says a couple
of things. First of all, we're going to set the
price of the drug, and they know the higher they
set the price, the bigger.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
What they call rebate. It's nothing more the kickback.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
It's a kickback that they get from the pharmaceutical company.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
That's the first thing they do. The second thing they
do is.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
If Pfizer, for example, produces a new pill, but there's
five other pills that do exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
The same thing.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
The PBM makes the decision, unilateral decision on which one
of those pills is going to be paid for by insurance,
you understand it.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
So they're very powerful, they have a lot of influence,
and they're basically the average person has no idea. I
wonder if you could talk about how these PBMs came
to be in the position that they are and so powerful.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
That is a wonderful question, because if you really dig
into which we've done, they just appeared virtually out of nowhere.
You had the insurance industry and the manufacturing industry. There
was a time when we were actually asking serious questions
why is medicine so expensive?
Speaker 4 (05:21):
And so all of a sudden they just appear. They
literally they're on the scene. It's a cooperative effort by the.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Pharmacy industry and the manufacturing industry and the insurance industry,
and so all of a sudden, Their talking point, Lorraine,
is that we're here to help. We're going to keep
the prices down. And as you might expect with any
organization that's completely utterly unregulated, these folks said, Wow, this
is really a good opportunity, and we're going to jack
(05:50):
up the prices of medicine. We're going to get kickbacks
for doing it. We're going to extort the manufacturers, and
if they don't play by our rules, we're not going
to put them on the phone tmulary list to where
insurance won't pay for their product. That's kind of the
quick ten thousand foot of where they came from and
how it happened. There's no legitimate route to say. As
a matter of fact, the first time I've even heard
(06:12):
oddly enough. I mean, you know, they've been around for
a long time. You have administration after administration that's ignored
the impact that they're having. Right now, this is the
first administration where they've even talked about, you know, we
got to do something about PBMs. So I'm optimistic something
may be done, But in the meantime, they continue to
price gouge. In this book The Middleman, for example, I
(06:34):
talk about how all the way back to the beginning
of insulin, insulin was developed in Canada and it was
developed for university taxpayers paid.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Is typical in the pharmaceutical industry.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Taxpayers pay for research and development, not the company, and
then the company after the product is developed, comes and
buys it and jacks up the price astronomically. In this situation,
there was a Canadian doctor scientist came up with how
to administer insulin, what's the mixture.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Of that type of thing? He sold it to Canada.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
He sold it to the university system in the medical
system in Canada for one dollar, and then all of
the flying monkeys from Wall Street came in and said, hey,
we want to buy this, and they ever since then.
So it costs two dollars to make two.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Dollars to produce this product.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
In the United States, they sell it anywhere from ninety
eight dollars to one hundred and twenty five dollars, and
that same product sells in Australia, in Canada for seven dollars.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Wow. The FTC recently revealed that major PBMs dramatically mark
up drug prices, as you've already explained, leading to billions
and excess costs for consumers. What you see is the
best way for the public to push back against these prices.
Speaker 3 (07:49):
Right now is the first time, Lorraine, that I've seen
momentum right now, as a matter of fact, I think
the New York Times might have shamed the rest of
corporate media into paying at time, why would corporate media
come out against PBMs or the pharmaceutical industry. There's no reason,
because every eight minutes on your television there's a new ad.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Are you sad?
Speaker 3 (08:12):
Are you walking slow? Well, we've got the medicine for you.
So it's an industry that brings in tens of billions
of dollars into corporate media.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Right, so we're not going to get it.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
We have no success in that regard, just like just
like I experienced with both tobacco and opioids, I had
no success getting the corporate media to respond.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
And so it was ground swell.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Where a couple of a couple of outlets said, you know,
it's time for us to really pay attention to it,
and they basically shamed the rest of corporate media.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
I don't know that you can do that.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
With this case because the money is so huge. I
always believe, and I've you know, having practice as a
trial lawyer for forty two years and been in courtrooms
all over this country. I see when when a jury
finally gets it and they say, you know, we're really
being victimized. Oftentimes, those are the very people that create
letter writing campaigns to the local newspaper, and there every
(09:08):
day there's a new letter from somebody saying this is wrong.
We have to do something about it. The problem is, Lorraine,
the cavalry is not coming. Okay, there's no cavalry here.
I guess we're the closest thing to a cavalry in
the sense that if we get a result and we
hammer these companies like I believe we're going to do,
I think that might.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
Cause some change.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I'm optimistic that I keep hearing, you know, a little
bits and pieces coming out of this administration. We need
to do something about PBMs. That could happen. I use
the gangster profile in this book. Connor Devlin is an
Irish gangster. He was raised by gangsters as a child.
He doesn't have a mother and father and these group
(09:51):
of gangsters raise them and they're running basically, they're running
big swaths of.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
Ireland a gangster system.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Well, when he comes here, he says, takes that and
supplants it into the same thing the PBMs are doing,
and it's almost unrecognizable. You almost look at Okay, here's
Connor Devlin's program, here's wall Street's program. And so you
see this interesting confrontation between Connor Devlin and wall Street
and you don't know who you're pulling for. Connor Devlin
(10:20):
is a wholly awful person. He's total a totally awful person.
But then you're looking at and you say, well, you know,
wall Street.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
I don't know. It's a close call.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
You know. And Mike is a trial lawyer. You fought
some of the biggest corporate battles. And I have to
tell you that your last book on human trafficking, I
learned so much. I had no idea the implications of
corporate America in human trafficking. And so I love the
fact that you combine this fictional approach but with a
(10:53):
lot of research and a lot of real life information
in it. And I wonder if you can talk a
little more about how your legal experience has shaped the
storytelling that you present.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Well, basically, I'm a trial lawyer, okay, And that's all
I've ever done, Lorraine. I try cases for lawyers all
over the country. They hire me to come in if
they've got a project that usually involves pharmaceuticals, that usually
involves a corporation that's that's destroying an ecosystem with chemicals,
or might involve mom and Pop losing millions of dollars
(11:26):
in their pension programs because of something that's been done
on Wall Street. Those are the only kinds of cases
I handle. And as you might imagine, it's not like
one eight hundred car crash. The people that you're dealing
with are They're awful people. I'd love to say, I
hate to cover it with one big swath, but go ahead.
That's been my That's been my but that's been my
(11:47):
experience most of the time. I tell people when I'm
in trial or when I'm in a deposition, I look
at that person across the table from me, and they're
you know, they're CEOs with the silver hair and you know,
the Armani suits, and they don't look like they have
a criminal element to them. They certainly don't look like sociopaths.
(12:07):
But at the same time, after doing this for forty
two years and taking hundreds and hundreds of these depositions
at the very highest level, I always say, if I
had a DSM five in front of me and I
was doing check check check filling the checks, is this
person a sociopath every single time.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Yes, they would be a sociopath.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
So it sounds like an overstatement, but it really isn't
it started. I really started noticing it back in the
tobacco days. By the time you had opioids come along,
you had an industry that's killing one hundred and fifty
people a day conservatively, and doing that for almost twenty years.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
I look at this a little differently.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I look at it with a little more rage maybe
than most people do, because I'm in the center of
the fight. I've always been, really, in a matter of fact,
in the middlemen. I have a real, I think an
important DISCUSSI why is it the Department of Justice doesn't
step up and do what they're supposed to do? Okay,
why is it that the CEO that this character, Connor Devlin,
(13:10):
he's very sophisticated, all right. He's six foot four, white hair,
impeccable speech, incredible education that the gangsters gave him when
he was in Ireland. You know, he was very, very
sophisticated education. But he doesn't look like a gangster. He
doesn't look like a sociopath. And so I run into
that all the time. Lorraine, like the book you're talking
(13:33):
about in human trafficking.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
My god, you should have been in the room when I.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
Was taking the depositions of the people that were financing
all that, and you look.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
Across the table that you say, really, really, they're allowed
to go on.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
We don't purp walk them because they don't look like
a kid on the street corner with a hoodie selling
five ounces of marijuana. These people are committing manslaughter. That's
no exact say in the opioid industry. If I were
to give you the equivalent, what is the definition of
manslaughter from a legal analysis, Well, it's that reckless indifference
(14:09):
for human life. That's what gets you to the manslaughter threshold.
Right here was a company in the opioid industry in
the book that I wrote on that was called Law
and Addiction. I think you'll enjoy it if I were
to say, you know, Lorraine to go, I'm going to
drink a fifth of Jack Daniels and then I'm going
to drive ninety miles an hour through a school zone
(14:30):
and if I hit one of those children, that's manslaughter.
I go to prison for a very long time. Thankfully,
we have this legal fiction in our mind, this cultural
fiction to where g They're from Harvard, they have an MBA,
they graduated at the top of their class. They have
impeccable speech, they can talk about the classics. They love opera.
(14:54):
They wear Armani suits, they have a Rolex watch. They
drove up in a Bentley. So all of us of
a sudden we look at them differently, don't we. We say, no,
they're not a criminal. There's nothing sociopathic about them. But
in my experience, and you must believe me, in forty
two years doing this the ugliest cases in this country,
(15:14):
this is what I come away with. And my wife
says to me, she says, Mike, take off that cynical
hat sometimes and let's look at let's look the rosier
and glasses. But inevitably, when I'm writing these books, all
of that comes surging.
Speaker 4 (15:27):
It just comes rolling at me.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
And I say, how can I not talk about these issues?
So I try to round out all of those issues,
and all these books, I think the Middleman I really
accomplish that.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
But it's a great story, Lorraine.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
It's not all hell and damnation. It's a mixture, a
little bit of a love story that goes bad. It
talks about the humanity that we should expect from people
who are at the very top of the pecking order,
that we should expect more humanity from them, and we
don't get it.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
You have shined the light on so many different is,
including big tobacco, human trafficking, the weapons manufacturers, and of
course the latest big pharma. The Middleman is a gripping
legal thriller that explores the dark world of pharmacy benefit managers.
And if you think that's not sexy and exciting, well
(16:17):
think again, because this book will tell you all about
this hidden element that causes the prices of our drugs
to rise beyond all reason. But it does it in
a way that both entertains and educates. Mike Papantonio, renowned
trial lawyer, media personality and best selling author. Thank you
(16:38):
for all you do, Lorraine.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Thank you for the opportunity to talk to you. I've
been looking forward to this interview.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Today we are joined by Anthony Morris, an accomplished double
based musician and author of a book, A fascinating one
called and let me see if I can pronounce this correctly.
An epic rammaticists epic edification, blending his passion for rhythm
and language. Anthony invites readers on a playful journey through
sound and speech. His book is packed with original tongue
(17:08):
twisters that are fun to say as they are to
stumble through. Perfect for kids, families, educators, and anyone who
loves a good linguistic challenge. Anthony, thank you so much
for joining us here today.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
I wish we were doing video because you are very
sharply dressed. But all that aside, just imagine a very
sharply dressed person here. Tell us a little bit about yourself.
How did you go from double based performance to writing
this epigrammaticists epic edification book.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Well, it started as a game on the iPad. I
like building simulation cities and things like that. So with
this particular game, which has to be online, you have
to communicate with other people who you do not know
to get your raw materials to build your city.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
This is like SimCity, right, absolutely, and I love SimCity right.
And it's a multiplayer type thing too.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Is that particular game, Megopolis is the game of the game.
Oh yeah, Megopolis is the game that I started writing
these tongue twisters on. But sim City is a single
player and I'm selfish, so I like to play by myself.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Well, but people started taking note of the fact that
you were writing these terrific tongue twisters.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yes, they did, and so one person started to write
different funny things and everything. I said, you know something
that's pretty cool, so let me try my hand at it.
So I started tongue twisting the days of the week.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Okay, give us an example.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Oh, you're going to kill me now. Well, these are
some of my early tongue twisters, which I'll stumble through
on the radio for your pleasure, for your listening pleasure.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Here we go more mystified muted monks may make Monday
maggotty moose meat muffin madness mournfully mandatory.
Speaker 1 (18:54):
Oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that without
without stumbling. I think I might have some difficulty. Well,
that is very cool. So you got some feedback that
these tongue twisters were kind of cool, and so people
were encouraging you to do more. So you did more
and more and more, and then what happened.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Well, on this game, a lady from England, she said,
you know something, these are these are wonderful. You should
not post them here anymore. You should put them in
a book. And so I said to her, that's the
wonderful idea. So I stopped posting them. But as I
continued to play the game anyhow, I found that people
had my tongue twisters in their inboxes for weeks and
(19:33):
months afterwards, and they saved them. You have a choice
of erasing them, but a lot of people saved my stuff.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
So basically this is something that happened at like two
am in the morning where I just felt, okay, let
me right. It's like the witching hour, whereas nothing is
going on, it's very quiet and I can really think
about different things. So it started off with the days
of the week, then the months of the year. I said,
you know something, how about I turned this into reading cards.
(20:00):
So I would, you know, get people's names and get
what they do. If they're a musician or a radio
personality like such as yourself, I would get their birthday,
which is their month in the day that you know,
they wouldn't have to give me their age. Of course,
I can tongue twist that too. I mean, as you know,
if you're eighty years old, you're that's an octogenarian, you know,
and all the other all those sort of classifications that
(20:22):
I can tongue twist get the day that their birthday
falls on, and I would also tongue twist their zodiac sign.
So that turned into a person getting about maybe five
to seven tongue twisters in their card.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Well, that is really delightful. I'm sure that people really
appreciated getting those cards. But you again, you wrote a book,
you compiled these tongue twisters, and I'm wondering, there's something
kind of musical about the tongue twisters, whether you were
saying them out loud or saying them in your in
your brain. How did your musical background help you shape
the rhythm of your writing.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Well, I see I say this, and I tell people
my tongue twisters aren't really meant to be said quickly
because they are short stories, just like music is a story.
So I encourage people, yes, they can do whatever they
want with them, obviously, but to really understand what they're
saying in their fiction as well, you know, recite them slowly,
(21:16):
because every tongue twister is a story in and of herself,
and then you put them together and they create a
world that is about that person. Now, the tongue twisters
may not actually be true because they're fictional, but there
are certain facts and these tunk twitschres that are true,
and that's what you cannot buy in stores.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
Well, that's extraordinary. Tongue twisters are kind of tricky. What
makes a good one in your opinion? And can you
share one of your favorite ones from your book? Oh
my gosh, putting you on the spot here, Yes you are.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
I have a lot. I used of my earlier ones
because my later ones.
Speaker 1 (21:56):
Are very are they very intricate.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Very interesting. I would have to practice them. I mean
I wrote them, and of course I practiced them as
I was writing, because they have to make sense. I
mean before I get into trying to embarrass myself on radio.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
That's why we're here.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Exactly exactly. I did have to, you know, rehearse them
and everything. And then of course I give I sent
this book to an editor, and of course it was
panned because he didn't understand what this was about. And
that's okay, you know, he just thought that I was
throwing words together. No, these words they have to make
sense grammatically. All the syntax has to make sense and everything,
(22:31):
and I recite them over and over and over and
over again. So they're very difficult. And there's so many,
and there's so many, there are so many.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Well, this is a far cry from Sally Cells seashells
at the Sea Shore, which I barely made that. So yeah,
some twisters are in fact what they are. They do
twist your tongues and they're very easy to stumble over,
and children love them and do.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
And the thing is, children don't care if these words
have eight to ten or more syllables. They don't care
like we care. We care about embarrassing ourselves. The kids, oh,
I want to do this. This is a challenge for me.
And so they will pick up these words that are
grades ahead of them and they'll do it. And this
is what it's all about, having fun reading also strengthening
(23:18):
your linguistic prowess.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
If I may say, yeah, I can imagine this would
actually be a really wonderful way to encourage kids to read,
because it makes reading really fun and enjoyable.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Absolutely one of the ones that you read. Oh boy,
this is going to be really difficult.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
All right, let's hear it, let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Okay, here we go. My mouth is already tiredless looking
at it self centered seths second best, September, septuagenarian, sex
tet seldom, sex tupletate, sex egenarians, sect tuplets, seventeenth sesquid,
(23:59):
Oh my goodness, sesscot padilion sentence session.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Okay, I knew some of the words there.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
My goodness, of course hard. Yes, I picked that one
just to embarrass myself.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I think you did quite well. I don't know how
I would well. Let me ask you this, do you
test these tongue twisters out on anyone while writing? Nope,
it's on me, It's all on you. And then were
there any that were too hard to include?
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Nope?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
I put them all in. My main thing is they
must make sense. I know they're fictional, but they must
make sense. I look at Star Trek, Yes, okay, Star Trek.
We didn't have spaceships flying from you know, planet to planet,
but somehow it made sense enough for people to watch
it and accept it. You know, So with this, this
(24:50):
is also fiction, but it has to make sense grammatically.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, well, I'd like to pivot a little bit and
talk a bit about the other side of what you
do and that is you are an accomplished double bass musician.
I had a chance to see a picture of you
with this beautiful instrument that was taller than you, and
you're pretty tall. Tell us about your career as a
double basis, because that's not something you usually see people.
(25:16):
Oh yeah, I like the violin or the viola or
even the cello, but a double bass that is quite
an instrument and quite an accomplishment to be so good
at it.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Thank you, Thank you very much. Well. To start off,
I almost didn't get to play my instrument because there
were only four instruments when I started, which was the
fifth grade, and there are five of us who wanted
to play it, and so the teacher kept asking, come on, guys,
who wants to play another interest? We don't have enough
instruments in the building. And so someone finally relented and
(25:45):
played another instrument. So fifth grade through seventh grade there
was the four of us. By the time eighth grade
came in the same building, there were only two of
us playing. By the time high school came, I was
the only one playing from my grade for my class.
I picked the instrument because of the size and the sound. Now,
the thing is As I got older, I fell also
(26:06):
in love with the pipe organ, and so when I
was looking for basses to buy, I was always looking
for an instrument that would mimic that sound of the
pipe organ the low bass pipes. So I know it
would be sacrileagues for me to say it, but I
enjoy listening to pipe organ more so than my own instrument.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Well, your own instrument is quite extraordinary. Tell us about it,
because it's not something you get off the shelf.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right exactly. Yes, yes, that's nothing you would find in Walmart. Well,
my particular instrument is a three hundred year old Dutch instrument.
Now it was sold to me as a two hundred
year old German instrument, which was a bit more common,
but Dutch instruments like that are less common, so.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
I'm kind of looked out there.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
I did, and as far as price is concerned too,
because the dealer did not know exactly what he had
to so that was.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
A good bargain exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (27:04):
So I said, yes, I'll take it, because when I
first bought it, he said, you know something, Yes it
may be this, but it's it's not that good, and
he didn't know what he had so I took it
to other people and say, yeah, that's not what that is.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
And then when you found out what it was, three
hundred years old and quite a vented, beautiful instrument, then
that must have been a really nice surprise.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Oh yes it was. He didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Who cares about him? Exactly exactly, I.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
See you by exactly what I got this instrument. That's
around twenty oh two. I believe I purchased it. It's
been a love affair ever since.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, it is absolutely gorgeous. And you play in various orchestras,
you teach tell us a little more about all that.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
So I purchased this instrument while I was supping with
the New York Philharmonic. That was between nineteen ninety nine
and two thousand and six. Also during that time I
was working on Broadway. Really yep. I did some Broadway
shows including Titanic, High Society, Beauty and The Beast, Fan
of the Opera, things like that. But after the New Yorkuleharmonic,
(28:10):
I started playing with other orchestras like New Jersey Symphony.
I played with many others, many chamber orchestras. In one
particular orchestra which I am the personnel manager of is
the Harlem Chamber Players, So it's a shout out to
Harlem Chamber Players. Come see our concert and come check
out our website there Harlem Chamber Players dot org. But yeah,
I play in many, many different orchestras and also the
(28:32):
Little Orchestra Society, which I such just started playing with
about a couple of years ago. So it's a really busy,
busy schedule.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
You are a neclecting dude. Not only are you an
extraordinary double bassed musician, you are the author of this
book and epigrammaticist epic edification not too bad.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Right, exactly. I think it's an epigrammatist.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
I think that's epigrammatis epic edifications, ma'am, yes, ma'am. Well, thankfully,
I'm not going to try to accomplish any of these
tongue twisters, because you know you did that so beautifully,
and I myself, although I do talk for a living,
I could see myself beautifully. Thank you, thank you. But
I well, you know what, let me try, are you sure? Yes?
(29:17):
Pick one out for me. I'm going to try, and
you know I may do terribly, but I am game,
So pick something not too hard, but not too easy.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Okay, how about this w one. One of the things,
one of the things I try to do is I
try to tongue twist using all of the alphabets.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Oh boy, this is this one? Well groomed? That one
right there? Okay, all right, here we go, Here we go,
and three two one well groomed Westernized renegades repetitiously rectify
Wednesday's well toweight Wet Bags Wedgie retrospective webcast.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
That is delicious. That is great.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Well, that was fun. That was fun. Boy. I'm gonna
have to read a bunch of those. I think they're
very relaxing.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
They can be once you get past how are you
putting the accents where they need to be?
Speaker 1 (30:07):
All right?
Speaker 2 (30:08):
Yes, you know that's what throws people. And that's the
game of English.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
That is the game of English. I love words, and
if you are a lover of words, you want to
check this book out. And epigrammatisis epigrammatist, epigrammatist, and epigrammatist
epic edification written by Anthony Morris, who's also an accomplished
double based musician. He is an extraordinarily gifted musician, but
(30:32):
also a gifted writer of ton Twisters. Thank you so much,
thank you, thank you very much. You can listen to
all of today's interviews by going to our station website
and typing in keyword Community. You can also listen on
the iHeartRadio app yey Words Philadelphia Community Podcast. Follow me
on Twitter and Instagram at Lorraine Ballard. I'm Lorraine Ballard
(30:53):
MORL and I stand for service to our community and
media that empowers. What will you stand for? You've been
listening ley to what's going on, and thank you
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