Honoring Coach Fred Rosenfeld’s Legacy
If you’re lucky, you’ve had a mentor like Coach Fred Rosenfeld—a Philadelphia legend whose impact as a teacher, track coach, and community builder lives on.
Rachel Berger of the Weitzman National Museum of American Jewish History and Steven Bayne, a former political consultant and Overbrook Track alum, share efforts to rename a street in Fred’s honor and raise $30,000 to preserve his legacy. 🕊️ A memorial event is planned for this fall at the Weitzman Museum. Every donation supports this tribute to a life of mentorship and service. 🔗 Donate or learn more: theweitzman.org/fred-rosenfeld
📬 Tax-deductible checks can be sent to:
Rachel Berger
Weitzman National Museum
101 S. Independence Mall East, Philadelphia, PA 19106
Mike Papantonio – Exposing Greed Through Law and Fiction
We’re also joined by Mike Papantonio, renowned trial attorney, legal analyst, and bestselling author. A senior partner at Levin Papantonio Rafferty, Mike has led high-profile legal battles against Big Pharma, tobacco companies, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers. His latest novel, The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller that delves into the shadowy world of Pharmacy Benefit Managers (PBMs) and their role in skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real-life courtroom experience, Papantonio blends legal insight with suspense to shine a light on urgent consumer issues.
📚 Learn more: www.levinlaw.com | mikpapantonio.com
📲 Follow: Facebook | Twitter/X @AmericasLawyer | YouTube: Mike Papantonio
If you’re lucky, you’ve had a mentor like Coach Fred Rosenfeld—a Philadelphia legend whose impact as a teacher, track coach, and community builder lives on.
Rachel Berger of the Weitzman National Museum of American Jewish History and Steven Bayne, a former political consultant and Overbrook Track alum, share efforts to rename a street in Fred’s honor and raise $30,000 to preserve his legacy. 🕊️ A memorial event is planned for this fall at the Weitzman Museum. Every donation supports this tribute to a life of mentorship and service. 🔗 Donate or learn more: theweitzman.org/fred-rosenfeld
📬 Tax-deductible checks can be sent to:
Rachel Berger
Weitzman National Museum
101 S. Independence Mall East, Philadelphia, PA 19106
Mike Papantonio – Exposing Greed Through Law and Fiction
We’re also joined by Mike Papantonio, renowned trial attorney, legal analyst, and bestselling author. A senior partner at Levin Papantonio Rafferty, Mike has led high-profile legal battles against Big Pharma, tobacco companies, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers. His latest novel, The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller that delves into the shadowy world of Pharmacy Benefit Managers (PBMs) and their role in skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real-life courtroom experience, Papantonio blends legal insight with suspense to shine a light on urgent consumer issues.
📚 Learn more: www.levinlaw.com | mikpapantonio.com
📲 Follow: Facebook | Twitter/X @AmericasLawyer | YouTube: Mike Papantonio
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good morning, and welcome to what's going on a show
about making a difference in our lives and our communities.
I'm Lorraine Ballard Morrell. You're going to want to listen
to my interview with Mike Papentonio. His latest novel, The Middleman,
is a gripping legal thriller that delves into the shadowy
world of pharmacy benefit managers. And if you think that
sounds kind of boring, guess what. They have a huge
(00:21):
role in skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real life courtroom experience,
Papentonio Blend's legal insight with suspense to shine a light
on this urgent consumer issue. But first, today we're honoring
the life and legacy of coach Fred Rosenfeld, a Philadelphia
legend whose impact is a track coach, mentor, and teacher
(00:42):
continues to shape lives long after his passing. Joining us
today are Rachel Berger, Major Gifson, corporate giving officer at
the Weitzman National Museum of American Jewish History, and Stephen Baine,
a former political consultant and proud Overbrooke Track alum. Together
there leading fas to rename a street in Fred's honor
(01:02):
and raise funds to celebrate his lifelong commitment to uplifting
youth from all walks of life. A memorial event is
planned for this fall at the Whitesman Museum, and every
dollar raised will go towards preserving his extraordinary legacy. So
let's talk about the legacy of Coach Fred Rosenfeld. I'm
going to start with you, Rachel. What inspired the Whitesman
(01:22):
Museum to get involved in honoring Coach Fred Rosenfeld's legacy?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Thank you so much, Lorraine. What inspired the Whitesmen were
a few reasons. First and foremost, Steve Bain approached us
a few months ago with this idea and this opportunity
to honor Coach Fred Rosenfeld, who was a high school
track coach and a mentor to so many. He was Jewish,
(01:46):
and the Whitesman's mission is to share the stories of
how Jews have shaped and have been shaped by this country,
and I think Fred Rosenfeld's story is such a beautiful
encapsulation of that mission, and so telling his story at
the museum felt like a really wonderful opportunity and a
(02:07):
real connection to our community. And I was so glad
that Steve approached us because I actually have a personal
connection to Fred. I myself, I'm not a runner, but
my sister Riiselberger was a runner and she ran for
Coach Rose in high school. He was a great mentor
to her personally, and after she ran for him in
(02:28):
high school, she actually ran eleven marathons in her lifetime. Yeah,
she passed away last fall. So it's very personally meaningful.
And I've spoken to a lot of people over the
course of the beginning of this campaign, and everyone has
shared that Coach Rose had this incredible ability to make
people feel seen and to push them to be their
(02:50):
best selves. And it's just been so moving to talk
to people about his legacy, about Coach Rose, to get
to know his family, and to get to know the
people who who he impacted.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Well, Stephen, as someone who actually knew Fred personally, what
do you believe made his coaching style so impactful across
generations and communities, And tell us a little more about
your own personal connection with him.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Coach Rose, and I will waffle through a few different ways.
Coach Rose, Fred mister Rose, because I knew him as
all three of those things. He was a person who
was genuine, He was very real about what he did
and how he did it. He didn't see color, he
didn't see athleticity. There was a time mister man Frisbee
shared the story that one time they got stuck in
(03:36):
Syracuse and it was snowed in. Mister Rose was downstairs
talking to somebody and the person heard that the kids
were stuck for it extra day. He said, oh, I'll
I'll buy breakfast for him, buy breakfast for him. When
mister heard it, he turned around and said, well, mister Rose,
did you tell her we were black? And this maybe
ended up paying for everybody who came down and got
(03:57):
stuck up there from Philadelphia. But his was a way
that he just did not understand how we could not
help the person directly in front of you.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
He didn't see color.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
He didn't see color. He didn't see color. He was
a little frustrated by the fact that a lot of
people did do that because even when he began coaching,
and I was fortunate, I was I think his third
or fourth class after he accepted the head coaching job
from mister Harding, the late Jonas Harding. He just had
a way of knowing how to make you feel special
(04:27):
in that space. Nobody ever got cut from the team.
You found your way off. You saw you couldn't do it.
But he made sure the first guy and the sixty
fourth guy had the same rules and regulations to run by.
So if your grades weren't right, you didn't run, you
could have been the fastest person in the world. You
did not run, you didn't practice. We're not talking about
the game, but I talked about the meet. We're talking
(04:48):
about practice C minus. You could not practice. So he's
very real about that. From my experience, from my time
in the eleventh grade through my senior year, we won
two city championships, he was very much part of that
support base that I needed to have to do what
I did. I was an egghead and I was one
of those street runners. I could race anybody in the
street and win. They showed me the way to run,
(05:09):
mister Jones, who was my sprint coach, mister Rose. They
showed me how to do what it is I love
to do, got me into coaching for a short period
of time, and they spawned a number of guys throughout
the years, Olympians, World champions We're talking to Jason Grimes,
to late Paul Jordan. I'm saying that Paul was really
(05:30):
special to me. He just he just mentored a lot
of people, and he kept it real with all of
us even throughout the years. Once a month we all talked.
We always got on the phoney talked to the last
this last dying breath. We always talked. And he was
just one of those guys that I was fortunate. I
had my mother and father at home. However, you need
(05:51):
a village and that track team, those coaches became our village,
and he extended it past that all the way through
until his last days. Oh there's a friendship. It begins coach, teacher, coach,
mentor friend.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Wow, that is a wonderful story. And I wonder, Rachel,
if you could walk us through how people can contribute
to the fundraiser. And you have a goal of thirty
thousand dollars, what will that goal support?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yes, people can contribute to the fundraiser in a few
different ways. If you'd like to make a gift online,
you can do so by going to the Whitesman National
Museum of American Jewish History's website, which is the Whitesman
dorg Forward slash Fred Rosenfeldt and you can click on
(06:38):
that link and you can make a donation, and when
you do, in the note section you can just indicate
in memory of Fred rosenfeldt If you'd like to send
a check, that's also wonderful. You can send it to
my attention, Rachel Berger at the Whitesman Museum, one zero
one South Independence Mall, East, Philadelphia, PA, one nine one zero.
(07:01):
You can again write in the notes Fred Rosenfeld. You
had asked the question what will the thirty thousand dollars
goal support? So it'll support two different things. The first
is we will be putting up a plaque in our
Core exhibition in memory of Fred Rosenfeld's legacy. We have
a section on Jews and sports, and we think that
(07:23):
his story fits really beautifully within that larger narrative. And
the second thing that thirty thousand dollars will contribute to
is free admission to the museum. And what we plan
to do is have a weekend this fall where admission
will be free in Fred Rosenfeld's honor, and we invite
his friends and family. We invite all the students, all
(07:46):
the campers, all of the many runners and athletes and
former athletes who were affected by him to come to
the museum, we'll have some of his stories available to
share and really be able to go through the museum
and hear his story among a larger story.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
This will have already happened by the time this interview airs.
But you, Stephen, were very instrumental in a partnership with
council member Curtis Jones and state Representative Morgan cephust about
renaming a street in the name of coach Fred Rosenfeld.
Tell us what that means to you and all the
(08:25):
people that were touched by him.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Well, first, let me let me give them the full credit,
because Curtis is the council person in the area who
actually was cross country a manager of the cross country
team when he was there, really, and Morgan was a
former runner of Fred's at Central Kidding, So they were
really the one instrumental because it's their district to make
sure that happened. But I think it's really something to
be said because he meant a lot, not just to
(08:49):
the runners that Overbrook, but being an over Of alumni
then coming back a student teaching at the school, and
actually he was not supposed to be a track coach.
He was supposed to coach the soccer team. Soccer team
didn't develop. He wanted to do something. He started helping
out the track team and that's how the track team
got him. It's going to mean something to a lot
of people because he meant a lot to a lot
(09:11):
of people in different parts of their lives. Thousands of
people through Overbrook Central. And I have to give a
shout out to Patrick de Savada and Lynn Robbins Norton.
They have helped pull this together to make sure we
got people to know what's going on and getting people
to donate, and they've been very much the instrumental in this.
I really appreciate their help as well as everybody else
(09:33):
is to bring this together and bring us around.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And where is that street.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's going to be the corner of fifty ninth in Oxford,
right on the corner Overbrook, right where the g bus
lets you all. You're right there on that corner. I
love that.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And just to close, I wonder if you can share
maybe something that really stands out in your mind as
to something that coach Rosenfeldt said or did for you
personally that you'll never forget.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Wow, there there are several things, but I remember when
we were coming down my senior year, coming to city
council so they could recognize us. And we're coming across
the park, going past whereas now I guess it's the
police Chest Museum. And he's riding across and suddenly he
decides he wants to get some gum out of his pocket.
(10:19):
Now we're already late, and he's doing about sixty going
across the park and I'm in the passenger. See he
stands up, he said, get the wheel.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Can you drive?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I said, yeah, I got my license. He said, well,
get the wheel. He stands up in the car, the
cars running, running thing, and I'm and I'm trying to
be you know, Pard rocking coming around doing it. And
I realized he had to have a lot of trust
in me to allow me to do that, because we
were coming towards that curve real quick and he was
(10:49):
just he was just digging in. He finally found it,
and he found it. He sat back down there like
nothing happened. I, on the other hand, my heart is
just like just like leaping. But that that showed me
how much he trust me. And we had a lot
of competence compensations over the years, really a awful lot Wendy,
his wife is a God send. She allowed us to
have them for all those years. Really do appreciate his
(11:11):
time and his friendship.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, well, he's certainly made a huge difference in so
many people's lives, certainly your life and countless others and Rachel.
If again people want more information about how they can
find out more about Coach Fred Rosenfeldt and also donate.
What is the.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Website www dot t h E W E I t
z M A N dot org. And you can also
email me at our b e R G E R
at the Whitesman dot org. So our burger at the
Whitesman dot org.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
We all have I would hope someone or many people
that have made a huge difference in our lives. And
it seems as though Coach Fred Rosenfeldt over the many
decades has touched so many lives. Said really really has
been the supporter and mentor for individuals who've gone on
to do so many things. And that is the life
and legacy of Coach Fred rosenfeld a Philadelphia legend whose
(12:12):
impact is a track coach, mentor, and teacher continues to
shape lives long after his passing. We want to thank
Rachel Berger, major Gifts and Corporate Giving officer at the
Weitzman National Museum of American Jewish History, And of course
Stephen Bain, a former political consultant, a proud overbooked track,
a lum, and someone who counts coach Fred Rosenfeld as
(12:34):
a mentor and coach. Thank you both for joining us today.
Thank you. Mike Papentonio is a renowned trial lawyer, media personality,
and best selling author not for exposing corporate corruption through
both his legal work and legal thrillers. A senior partner
(12:54):
at Levin Papentonio, He's fought high profile battles against big pharma,
the tobacco industry, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers. Is latest novel,
The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller that uncovers the
dark world of pharmacy benefit managers will refer to them
from now on as PBMs and their impact on skyrocketing
(13:16):
drug prices. Drawing from real life cases, pap Antonio craft's
a suspenseful, high stake story that reflects urgent issues facing
consumers today. Well, I want to thank you so much
for coming back and talking about your latest book, Mike.
The Middleman delves into the hidden world of PBMs and
pharmaceutical pricing. What drew you to this particular subject for
(13:40):
your latest novel.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
I've brought a case against the PBM industry. It's a
national case. Typically what I do. These books that I produced,
there's seven of them, and they're all based on actual
cases that I've handled. The tobacco case was that originated
if you can imagine right here in Pensacola, the opioid case,
the national opia case originated here human trafficking. So the
(14:04):
firm is not a one eight hundred car crash case.
It's a firm that specializes in these really unique kind
of social, bigger social issues. We filed as an anti
trust case, Lorraine, because we saw that the companies had
a very clear plan on how to mark up insulin
one thousand, five hundred percent and then its high at
(14:25):
two thousand, five hundred percent. So we brought a case
against him, and I'm very optimistic that it's going to
go well. But the PBMs, the problem, Lorraine is people
simply don't understand it. If you ask ten people what
it is, they would have no idea, and unfortunately it's
costing them forty or fifty percent higher money on every
(14:46):
prescription that's been filled. I equate it. In the book Middleman,
I really used the mobster structure one of the lead characters,
and here is a mobster from Ireland who comes to
the United States and says, gee whiz, this is better
than I I could do with cocaine heroin, whatever we sell,
I can do better with the legal pharmacy industry. So
(15:07):
he moves into the PBM industry, and unfortunately it's a
cabal where kickbacks take place, extortion takes place, and I
trust takes place, price gouging takes place, and the awful
thing about it is nobody even knows what's happening. With
this book, you're able to I feel like you're able
to read a good story. It's definitely a page turner,
(15:29):
and at the same time, you come away with information
that you had no idea really existed. And if you
google any part of the actual structure of the PBM
and the discussions about PBM in this book, you'll find
every bit of it is absolutely true, and it's just
a reflection of the lawsuit that we're bringing. But it's fictionalized.
You know. The murders that take place and those types
(15:50):
of things that you know that's part of the fiction process.
People listening to this right now would have no idea
that for the last eleven years, their cope pays on
pharmaceuticals have gone up every single year. And the reason
that happens is because the PBM is what we call
the reason I call it middleman. It's interesting I brought
the lawsuit and we use the term middleman in that lawsuit.
(16:14):
New York Times picked that up and they wrote an
entire expose on the middleman, and that's the first time
that there's ever been any serious discussion about PBM and
corporate media. What they do is, you have this entity,
the pharmaceutical maker has got to go through the PBM
as the middleman before that drug is then used at
the pharmacy. What the PBM does, It says a couple
(16:37):
of things. First of all, we're going to set the
price of the drug, and they know the higher they
set the price, the bigger. What they call rebate. It's
nothing more the kickback. It's a kickback that they get
from the pharmaceutical company. That's the first thing they do.
The second thing they do is if Pfizer, for example,
produces a new pill, but there's five other pills that
(16:59):
do exactly the same thing. The PBM makes the decision,
unilateral decision on which one of those pills is going
to be paid for by insurance, you understand it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So they're very powerful, they have a lot of influence,
and they're basically the average person has no idea. I
wonder if you could talk about how these PBMs came
to be in the position that they are and so powerful.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
That is a wonderful question, because if you really dig
into which we've done, they just appeared virtually out of nowhere.
You had the insurance industry and the manufacturing industry. There
was a time when we were actually asking serious questions
why is medicine so expensive? And so all of a
sudden they just appear. They literally they're on the scene.
It's a cooperative effort by the pharmacy industry and the
(17:47):
manufacturing industry and the insurance industry, and so all of
a sudden, Their talking point, Lorraine, is that we're here
to help. We're going to keep the prices down. And
as you might expect with any organization that's completely utterly unregulated,
these folks said, Wow, this is really a good opportunity,
and we're going to jack up the prices of medicine.
(18:10):
We're going to get kickbacks for doing it. We're going
to extort the manufacturers, and if they don't play by
our rules, we're not going to put them on the
formulary list to where insurance won't pay for their product.
That's kind of the quick ten thousand foot of where
they came from and how it happened. There's no legitimate
route to say. As a matter of fact, the first
time I've even heard, oddly enough. I mean, you know,
(18:31):
they've been around for a long time. You have administration
after administration that's ignored the impact that they're having. Right now.
This is the first administration where they've even talked about,
you know, we got to do something about PBMs. So
I'm optimistic something may be done, But in the meantime,
they continue to price gouge. In this book The Middleman,
for example, I talk about how all the way back
(18:55):
to the beginning of insulin, insulin was developed in Canada
and it was developed for in a university. Taxpayers paid
is typical in the pharmaceutical industry. Taxpayers pay for research
and development, not the company, and then the company after
the product is developed, comes and buys it and jacks
up the price astronomically. In this situation, there was a
(19:15):
Canadian doctor scientist that came up with how to administer insulin,
what's the mixture of that type of thing? He sold
it to Canada. He sold it to the university system
in the medical system in Canada for one dollar, and
then all of the flying monkeys from Wall Street came
in and said, hey, we want to buy this, and
(19:36):
they ever since then. So it costs two dollars to
make two dollars to produce this product. In the United States,
they sell it anywhere from ninety eight dollars to one
hundred and twenty five dollars, and that same product sells
in Australia, in Canada for seven dollars.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Wow. The FTC recently revealed that major PBMs dramatically mark
up drug prices, as you've already explained, leading to billions
and excess costs for consumers. What you see is the
best way for the public to push back against these prices.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Right now is the first time, Lorraine, that I've seen
momentum right now as a matter of fact, I think
the New York Times might have shamed the rest of
corporate media into paying attention. Why would corporate media come
out against PBMs or the pharmaceutical industry. There's no reason
because every eight minutes on your television there's a new ad.
(20:28):
Are you sad? Are you walking slow? Well, we've got
the medicine for you. So it's an industry that brings
in tens of billions of dollars into corporate media, right,
so we're not going to get it. We have no
success in that regard, just like I experienced with both
tobacco and opioids. I had no success getting the corporate
(20:50):
media to respond, and so it was ground swell where
a couple of a couple of outlets said, you know,
it's time for us to really pay attention to it,
and they basically shame aimed the rest of corporate media.
I don't know that you can do that with this
case because the money is so huge. I always believe,
and I've you know, having practice as a trial lawyer
(21:11):
for forty two years and been in courtrooms all over
this country. I see when a jury finally gets it
and they say, you know, we're really being victimized. Oftentimes,
those are the very people that create letter writing campaigns
to the local newspaper, and there every day there's a
new letter from somebody saying this is wrong. We have
to do something about it. The problem is, Lorraine, the
(21:33):
cavalry is not coming. Okay, there's no cavalry here. I
guess we're the closest thing to a cavalry in the
sense that if we get a result and we hammer
these companies like I believe we're going to do, I
think that might cause some change. I'm optimistic that I
keep hearing, you know, little bits and pieces coming out
of this administration. We need to do something about PBMs.
(21:56):
That could happen. I use the gangster profile in this book.
Connor Devlin is an Irish gangster. He was raised by
gangsters as a child. He doesn't have a mother and
father and these group of gangsters raise him and they're
running basically, they're running big swaths of Ireland. Is a
gangster system. Well, when he comes here, he simply takes
(22:18):
that and supplants it into the same thing the PBMs
are doing, and it's almost unrecognizable. You almost look at Okay,
here's Connor Devlin's program, here's wall Street's program. And so
you see this interesting, this interesting confrontation between Connor Devlin
and wall Street, and you don't know who you're pulling for.
Connor Devlin is a holy awful person. He's total a
(22:41):
totally awful person. But then you're looking at and you say, well,
you know, wall Street. I don't know. It's a close.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Call, you know. And Mike is a try lawyer. You
fought some of the biggest corporate battles. And I have
to tell you that your last book on human trafficking,
I learned so much. I had no idea the implications
of corporate America in human trafficking. And so I love
the fact that you combine this fictional approach but with
(23:11):
a lot of research and a lot of real life
information in it. And I wonder if you can talk
a little more about how your legal experience has shaped
the storytelling that you preciently.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah, well, basically, I'm a trial lawyer, okay, And that's
all I've ever done, Lorraine. I try cases for lawyers
all over the country. They hire me to come in
if they've got a project that usually involves pharmaceuticals, that
usually involves a corporation that's destroying an ecosystem with chemicals,
or might involve Mom and Pop losing millions of dollars
(23:44):
in their pension programs because of something that's been done
on Wall Street. Those are the only kinds of cases
I handle. And as you might imagine, it's not like
one eight hundred car crash. The people that you're dealing
with are They're awful people. I'd love to say I
hate to cover it with one big swath, but that's
been my That's been my but that's been my experience
(24:05):
most of the time. I tell people when I'm in
trial or when I'm in a deposition, I look at
that person across the table from me, and they're you know,
they're CEOs with the silver hair and you know, the
Armani suits, and they don't look like they have a
criminal element to them. They certainly don't look like sociopaths.
(24:25):
But at the same time, after doing this for forty two
years and taking hundreds and hundreds of these depositions at
the very highest level, I always say, if I had
a DSM five in front of me and I was
doing check check check filling, the filling the checks, is
this person a sociopath? Every single time? Yes, they would
be a sociopath. So so it sounds like an overstatement,
(24:49):
but it really isn't it started. I really started noticing
it back in the tobacco days. By the time you
had opioids come along, you had an industry that's killing
a hundre and fifty people a day conservatively, and doing
that for almost twenty years. I look at this a
little differently. I look at it with a little more
rage maybe than most people do, because I'm in the
(25:10):
center of the fight. I've always been really in this.
In a matter of fact, in the middlemen. I have
a real, I think an important discussion. Why is it
the Department of Justice doesn't step up and do what
they're supposed to do? Okay, why is it that the
CEO that this character, Connor Devlin, he's very sophisticated, all right.
(25:31):
He's six foot four, white hair, impeccable speech, incredible education
that the gangsters gave him when he was in Ireland.
You know, he was very, very sophisticated education. But he
doesn't look like a gangster. He doesn't look like a sociopath.
And so I run into that all the time, Lorraine,
like the book you're talking about in human Trafficking. My god,
(25:54):
you should have been in the room when I was
taken to depositions of the people that were financing all that,
and you look across the table let you say, really, really,
they're allowed to go on. We don't purp walk them
because they don't look like a kid on the street
corner with a hoodie selling five ounces of marijuana. These
(26:15):
people are committing manslaughter. That's no exaggeration. In the opioid industry.
If I were to give you the equivalent, what is
the definition of manslaughter from a legal analysis, Well, it's
that reckless indifference for human life. That's what gets you
to the manslaughter threshold. Right here was a company in
the opioid industry in the book that I wrote on
(26:35):
that was called Law and Addiction. I think you'll enjoy it.
If I were to say, you know, Lorraine, I go
I'm going to drink a fifth of Jack Daniels and
then I'm going to drive ninety miles an hour through
a school zone and if I hit one of those children,
that's manslaughter. I go to prison for a very long time. Thankfully,
we have this legal fiction in our mind, this cultural
(26:58):
fiction towards. They're from Harvard, they have an MBA, they
graduate at the top of their class, they have impeccable speech,
they can talk about the classics. They love opera. They
wear Armani's suits, they have a Rolex watch. They drove
up in a Bentley. So all of a sudden we
(27:19):
look at them differently, don't we. We say, no, they're
not a criminal. There's nothing sociopathic about them. But in
my experience, and you must believe me, in forty two
years doing this the ugliest cases in this country, this
is what I come away with. And my wife says
to me, she says, Mike, take off that cynical hat
sometimes and let's look at let's look the rosier and glasses.
(27:41):
But inevitably, when I'm writing these books, all of that
comes surging. It just comes rolling at me, and I say,
how can I not talk about these issues? So I
try to round out all of those issues and all
these books. I think the Middleman I really accomplish that.
But it's a great story, Lorraine. It's not all hell
and damnation. It's a mixture, a little bit of a
(28:02):
love story that goes bad. It talks about the humanity
that we should expect from people who who are at
the very top of the pecking order, that we should
expect more humanity from them, and we don't get it.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
You have shined the light on so many different issues,
including big tobacco, human trafficking, the weapons manufacturers, and of
course the latest big pharma. The Middleman is a gripping
legal thriller that explores the dark world of pharmacy benefit managers.
And if you think that's not sexy and exciting, well
(28:35):
think again, because this book will tell you all about
this hidden element that causes the prices of our drugs
to rise beyond all reason. But it does it in
a way that both entertains and educates. Mike Papantonio, renowned
trial lawyer, media personality and best selling author.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Thank you for all you do, Lorraine. Thank you for
the opportunity to talk to you. I've been looking forward
to this interview.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You can listen to all of today's interviews by going
to our station website and typing in keyword Community. You
can also listen on the iHeartRadio app Keywords Philadelphia Community Podcast.
Follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Lorraine Ballard. I'm
Lorraine Ballard Morel and I stand for service to our
community and media that empowers. What will you stand for?
(29:23):
You've been listening to what's going on, and thank you
Good morning, and welcome to what's going on a show
about making a difference in our lives and our communities.
I'm Lorraine Ballard Morrell. You're going to want to listen
to my interview with Mike Papentonio. His latest novel, The Middleman,
is a gripping legal thriller that delves into the shadowy
world of pharmacy benefit managers. And if you think that
sounds kind of boring, guess what. They have a huge
(00:21):
role in skyrocketing drug prices. Drawing from real life courtroom experience,
Papentonio Blend's legal insight with suspense to shine a light
on this urgent consumer issue. But first, today we're honoring
the life and legacy of coach Fred Rosenfeld, a Philadelphia
legend whose impact is a track coach, mentor, and teacher
(00:42):
continues to shape lives long after his passing. Joining us
today are Rachel Berger, Major Gifson, corporate giving officer at
the Weitzman National Museum of American Jewish History, and Stephen Baine,
a former political consultant and proud Overbrooke Track alum. Together
there leading fas to rename a street in Fred's honor
(01:02):
and raise funds to celebrate his lifelong commitment to uplifting
youth from all walks of life. A memorial event is
planned for this fall at the Whitesman Museum, and every
dollar raised will go towards preserving his extraordinary legacy. So
let's talk about the legacy of Coach Fred Rosenfeld. I'm
going to start with you, Rachel. What inspired the Whitesman
(01:22):
Museum to get involved in honoring Coach Fred Rosenfeld's legacy?
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Thank you so much, Lorraine. What inspired the Whitesmen were
a few reasons. First and foremost, Steve Bain approached us
a few months ago with this idea and this opportunity
to honor Coach Fred Rosenfeld, who was a high school
track coach and a mentor to so many. He was Jewish,
(01:46):
and the Whitesman's mission is to share the stories of
how Jews have shaped and have been shaped by this country,
and I think Fred Rosenfeld's story is such a beautiful
encapsulation of that mission, and so telling his story at
the museum felt like a really wonderful opportunity and a
(02:07):
real connection to our community. And I was so glad
that Steve approached us because I actually have a personal
connection to Fred. I myself, I'm not a runner, but
my sister Riiselberger was a runner and she ran for
Coach Rose in high school. He was a great mentor
to her personally, and after she ran for him in
(02:28):
high school, she actually ran eleven marathons in her lifetime. Yeah,
she passed away last fall. So it's very personally meaningful.
And I've spoken to a lot of people over the
course of the beginning of this campaign, and everyone has
shared that Coach Rose had this incredible ability to make
people feel seen and to push them to be their
(02:50):
best selves. And it's just been so moving to talk
to people about his legacy, about Coach Rose, to get
to know his family, and to get to know the
people who who he impacted.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Well, Stephen, as someone who actually knew Fred personally, what
do you believe made his coaching style so impactful across
generations and communities, And tell us a little more about
your own personal connection with him.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Coach Rose, and I will waffle through a few different ways.
Coach Rose, Fred mister Rose, because I knew him as
all three of those things. He was a person who
was genuine, He was very real about what he did
and how he did it. He didn't see color, he
didn't see athleticity. There was a time mister man Frisbee
shared the story that one time they got stuck in
(03:36):
Syracuse and it was snowed in. Mister Rose was downstairs
talking to somebody and the person heard that the kids
were stuck for it extra day. He said, oh, I'll
I'll buy breakfast for him, buy breakfast for him. When
mister heard it, he turned around and said, well, mister Rose,
did you tell her we were black? And this maybe
ended up paying for everybody who came down and got
(03:57):
stuck up there from Philadelphia. But his was a way
that he just did not understand how we could not
help the person directly in front of you.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
He didn't see color.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
He didn't see color. He didn't see color. He was
a little frustrated by the fact that a lot of
people did do that because even when he began coaching,
and I was fortunate, I was I think his third
or fourth class after he accepted the head coaching job
from mister Harding, the late Jonas Harding. He just had
a way of knowing how to make you feel special
(04:27):
in that space. Nobody ever got cut from the team.
You found your way off. You saw you couldn't do it.
But he made sure the first guy and the sixty
fourth guy had the same rules and regulations to run by.
So if your grades weren't right, you didn't run, you
could have been the fastest person in the world. You
did not run, you didn't practice. We're not talking about
the game, but I talked about the meet. We're talking
(04:48):
about practice C minus. You could not practice. So he's
very real about that. From my experience, from my time
in the eleventh grade through my senior year, we won
two city championships, he was very much part of that
support base that I needed to have to do what
I did. I was an egghead and I was one
of those street runners. I could race anybody in the
street and win. They showed me the way to run,
(05:09):
mister Jones, who was my sprint coach, mister Rose. They
showed me how to do what it is I love
to do, got me into coaching for a short period
of time, and they spawned a number of guys throughout
the years, Olympians, World champions We're talking to Jason Grimes,
to late Paul Jordan. I'm saying that Paul was really
(05:30):
special to me. He just he just mentored a lot
of people, and he kept it real with all of
us even throughout the years. Once a month we all talked.
We always got on the phoney talked to the last
this last dying breath. We always talked. And he was
just one of those guys that I was fortunate. I
had my mother and father at home. However, you need
(05:51):
a village and that track team, those coaches became our village,
and he extended it past that all the way through
until his last days. Oh there's a friendship. It begins coach, teacher, coach,
mentor friend.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Wow, that is a wonderful story. And I wonder, Rachel,
if you could walk us through how people can contribute
to the fundraiser. And you have a goal of thirty
thousand dollars, what will that goal support?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yes, people can contribute to the fundraiser in a few
different ways. If you'd like to make a gift online,
you can do so by going to the Whitesman National
Museum of American Jewish History's website, which is the Whitesman
dorg Forward slash Fred Rosenfeldt and you can click on
(06:38):
that link and you can make a donation, and when
you do, in the note section you can just indicate
in memory of Fred rosenfeldt If you'd like to send
a check, that's also wonderful. You can send it to
my attention, Rachel Berger at the Whitesman Museum, one zero
one South Independence Mall, East, Philadelphia, PA, one nine one zero.
(07:01):
You can again write in the notes Fred Rosenfeld. You
had asked the question what will the thirty thousand dollars
goal support? So it'll support two different things. The first
is we will be putting up a plaque in our
Core exhibition in memory of Fred Rosenfeld's legacy. We have
a section on Jews and sports, and we think that
(07:23):
his story fits really beautifully within that larger narrative. And
the second thing that thirty thousand dollars will contribute to
is free admission to the museum. And what we plan
to do is have a weekend this fall where admission
will be free in Fred Rosenfeld's honor, and we invite
his friends and family. We invite all the students, all
(07:46):
the campers, all of the many runners and athletes and
former athletes who were affected by him to come to
the museum, we'll have some of his stories available to
share and really be able to go through the museum
and hear his story among a larger story.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
This will have already happened by the time this interview airs.
But you, Stephen, were very instrumental in a partnership with
council member Curtis Jones and state Representative Morgan cephust about
renaming a street in the name of coach Fred Rosenfeld.
Tell us what that means to you and all the
(08:25):
people that were touched by him.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
Well, first, let me let me give them the full credit,
because Curtis is the council person in the area who
actually was cross country a manager of the cross country
team when he was there, really, and Morgan was a
former runner of Fred's at Central Kidding, So they were
really the one instrumental because it's their district to make
sure that happened. But I think it's really something to
be said because he meant a lot, not just to
(08:49):
the runners that Overbrook, but being an over Of alumni
then coming back a student teaching at the school, and
actually he was not supposed to be a track coach.
He was supposed to coach the soccer team. Soccer team
didn't develop. He wanted to do something. He started helping
out the track team and that's how the track team
got him. It's going to mean something to a lot
of people because he meant a lot to a lot
(09:11):
of people in different parts of their lives. Thousands of
people through Overbrook Central. And I have to give a
shout out to Patrick de Savada and Lynn Robbins Norton.
They have helped pull this together to make sure we
got people to know what's going on and getting people
to donate, and they've been very much the instrumental in this.
I really appreciate their help as well as everybody else
(09:33):
is to bring this together and bring us around.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
And where is that street.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
It's going to be the corner of fifty ninth in Oxford,
right on the corner Overbrook, right where the g bus
lets you all. You're right there on that corner. I
love that.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And just to close, I wonder if you can share
maybe something that really stands out in your mind as
to something that coach Rosenfeldt said or did for you
personally that you'll never forget.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
Wow, there there are several things, but I remember when
we were coming down my senior year, coming to city
council so they could recognize us. And we're coming across
the park, going past whereas now I guess it's the
police Chest Museum. And he's riding across and suddenly he
decides he wants to get some gum out of his pocket.
(10:19):
Now we're already late, and he's doing about sixty going
across the park and I'm in the passenger. See he
stands up, he said, get the wheel.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Can you drive?
Speaker 3 (10:28):
I said, yeah, I got my license. He said, well,
get the wheel. He stands up in the car, the
cars running, running thing, and I'm and I'm trying to
be you know, Pard rocking coming around doing it. And
I realized he had to have a lot of trust
in me to allow me to do that, because we
were coming towards that curve real quick and he was
(10:49):
just he was just digging in. He finally found it,
and he found it. He sat back down there like
nothing happened. I, on the other hand, my heart is
just like just like leaping. But that that showed me
how much he trust me. And we had a lot
of competence compensations over the years, really a awful lot Wendy,
his wife is a God send. She allowed us to
have them for all those years. Really do appreciate his
(11:11):
time and his friendship.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
Yeah, well, he's certainly made a huge difference in so
many people's lives, certainly your life and countless others and Rachel.
If again people want more information about how they can
find out more about Coach Fred Rosenfeldt and also donate.
What is the.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Website www dot t h E W E I t
z M A N dot org. And you can also
email me at our b e R G E R
at the Whitesman dot org. So our burger at the
Whitesman dot org.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
We all have I would hope someone or many people
that have made a huge difference in our lives. And
it seems as though Coach Fred Rosenfeldt over the many
decades has touched so many lives. Said really really has
been the supporter and mentor for individuals who've gone on
to do so many things. And that is the life
and legacy of Coach Fred rosenfeld a Philadelphia legend whose
(12:12):
impact is a track coach, mentor, and teacher continues to
shape lives long after his passing. We want to thank
Rachel Berger, major Gifts and Corporate Giving officer at the
Weitzman National Museum of American Jewish History, And of course
Stephen Bain, a former political consultant, a proud overbooked track,
a lum, and someone who counts coach Fred Rosenfeld as
(12:34):
a mentor and coach. Thank you both for joining us today.
Thank you. Mike Papentonio is a renowned trial lawyer, media personality,
and best selling author not for exposing corporate corruption through
both his legal work and legal thrillers. A senior partner
(12:54):
at Levin Papentonio, He's fought high profile battles against big pharma,
the tobacco industry, weapons manufacturers, and human traffickers. Is latest novel,
The Middleman, is a gripping legal thriller that uncovers the
dark world of pharmacy benefit managers will refer to them
from now on as PBMs and their impact on skyrocketing
(13:16):
drug prices. Drawing from real life cases, pap Antonio craft's
a suspenseful, high stake story that reflects urgent issues facing
consumers today. Well, I want to thank you so much
for coming back and talking about your latest book, Mike.
The Middleman delves into the hidden world of PBMs and
pharmaceutical pricing. What drew you to this particular subject for
(13:40):
your latest novel.
Speaker 4 (13:41):
I've brought a case against the PBM industry. It's a
national case. Typically what I do. These books that I produced,
there's seven of them, and they're all based on actual
cases that I've handled. The tobacco case was that originated
if you can imagine right here in Pensacola, the opioid case,
the national opia case originated here human trafficking. So the
(14:04):
firm is not a one eight hundred car crash case.
It's a firm that specializes in these really unique kind
of social, bigger social issues. We filed as an anti
trust case, Lorraine, because we saw that the companies had
a very clear plan on how to mark up insulin
one thousand, five hundred percent and then its high at
(14:25):
two thousand, five hundred percent. So we brought a case
against him, and I'm very optimistic that it's going to
go well. But the PBMs, the problem, Lorraine is people
simply don't understand it. If you ask ten people what
it is, they would have no idea, and unfortunately it's
costing them forty or fifty percent higher money on every
(14:46):
prescription that's been filled. I equate it. In the book Middleman,
I really used the mobster structure one of the lead characters,
and here is a mobster from Ireland who comes to
the United States and says, gee whiz, this is better
than I I could do with cocaine heroin, whatever we sell,
I can do better with the legal pharmacy industry. So
(15:07):
he moves into the PBM industry, and unfortunately it's a
cabal where kickbacks take place, extortion takes place, and I
trust takes place, price gouging takes place, and the awful
thing about it is nobody even knows what's happening. With
this book, you're able to I feel like you're able
to read a good story. It's definitely a page turner,
(15:29):
and at the same time, you come away with information
that you had no idea really existed. And if you
google any part of the actual structure of the PBM
and the discussions about PBM in this book, you'll find
every bit of it is absolutely true, and it's just
a reflection of the lawsuit that we're bringing. But it's fictionalized.
You know. The murders that take place and those types
(15:50):
of things that you know that's part of the fiction process.
People listening to this right now would have no idea
that for the last eleven years, their cope pays on
pharmaceuticals have gone up every single year. And the reason
that happens is because the PBM is what we call
the reason I call it middleman. It's interesting I brought
the lawsuit and we use the term middleman in that lawsuit.
(16:14):
New York Times picked that up and they wrote an
entire expose on the middleman, and that's the first time
that there's ever been any serious discussion about PBM and
corporate media. What they do is, you have this entity,
the pharmaceutical maker has got to go through the PBM
as the middleman before that drug is then used at
the pharmacy. What the PBM does, It says a couple
(16:37):
of things. First of all, we're going to set the
price of the drug, and they know the higher they
set the price, the bigger. What they call rebate. It's
nothing more the kickback. It's a kickback that they get
from the pharmaceutical company. That's the first thing they do.
The second thing they do is if Pfizer, for example,
produces a new pill, but there's five other pills that
(16:59):
do exactly the same thing. The PBM makes the decision,
unilateral decision on which one of those pills is going
to be paid for by insurance, you understand it.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
So they're very powerful, they have a lot of influence,
and they're basically the average person has no idea. I
wonder if you could talk about how these PBMs came
to be in the position that they are and so powerful.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
That is a wonderful question, because if you really dig
into which we've done, they just appeared virtually out of nowhere.
You had the insurance industry and the manufacturing industry. There
was a time when we were actually asking serious questions
why is medicine so expensive? And so all of a
sudden they just appear. They literally they're on the scene.
It's a cooperative effort by the pharmacy industry and the
(17:47):
manufacturing industry and the insurance industry, and so all of
a sudden, Their talking point, Lorraine, is that we're here
to help. We're going to keep the prices down. And
as you might expect with any organization that's completely utterly unregulated,
these folks said, Wow, this is really a good opportunity,
and we're going to jack up the prices of medicine.
(18:10):
We're going to get kickbacks for doing it. We're going
to extort the manufacturers, and if they don't play by
our rules, we're not going to put them on the
formulary list to where insurance won't pay for their product.
That's kind of the quick ten thousand foot of where
they came from and how it happened. There's no legitimate
route to say. As a matter of fact, the first
time I've even heard, oddly enough. I mean, you know,
(18:31):
they've been around for a long time. You have administration
after administration that's ignored the impact that they're having. Right now.
This is the first administration where they've even talked about,
you know, we got to do something about PBMs. So
I'm optimistic something may be done, But in the meantime,
they continue to price gouge. In this book The Middleman,
for example, I talk about how all the way back
(18:55):
to the beginning of insulin, insulin was developed in Canada
and it was developed for in a university. Taxpayers paid
is typical in the pharmaceutical industry. Taxpayers pay for research
and development, not the company, and then the company after
the product is developed, comes and buys it and jacks
up the price astronomically. In this situation, there was a
(19:15):
Canadian doctor scientist that came up with how to administer insulin,
what's the mixture of that type of thing? He sold
it to Canada. He sold it to the university system
in the medical system in Canada for one dollar, and
then all of the flying monkeys from Wall Street came
in and said, hey, we want to buy this, and
(19:36):
they ever since then. So it costs two dollars to
make two dollars to produce this product. In the United States,
they sell it anywhere from ninety eight dollars to one
hundred and twenty five dollars, and that same product sells
in Australia, in Canada for seven dollars.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Wow. The FTC recently revealed that major PBMs dramatically mark
up drug prices, as you've already explained, leading to billions
and excess costs for consumers. What you see is the
best way for the public to push back against these prices.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Right now is the first time, Lorraine, that I've seen
momentum right now as a matter of fact, I think
the New York Times might have shamed the rest of
corporate media into paying attention. Why would corporate media come
out against PBMs or the pharmaceutical industry. There's no reason
because every eight minutes on your television there's a new ad.
(20:28):
Are you sad? Are you walking slow? Well, we've got
the medicine for you. So it's an industry that brings
in tens of billions of dollars into corporate media, right,
so we're not going to get it. We have no
success in that regard, just like I experienced with both
tobacco and opioids. I had no success getting the corporate
(20:50):
media to respond, and so it was ground swell where
a couple of a couple of outlets said, you know,
it's time for us to really pay attention to it,
and they basically shame aimed the rest of corporate media.
I don't know that you can do that with this
case because the money is so huge. I always believe,
and I've you know, having practice as a trial lawyer
(21:11):
for forty two years and been in courtrooms all over
this country. I see when a jury finally gets it
and they say, you know, we're really being victimized. Oftentimes,
those are the very people that create letter writing campaigns
to the local newspaper, and there every day there's a
new letter from somebody saying this is wrong. We have
to do something about it. The problem is, Lorraine, the
(21:33):
cavalry is not coming. Okay, there's no cavalry here. I
guess we're the closest thing to a cavalry in the
sense that if we get a result and we hammer
these companies like I believe we're going to do, I
think that might cause some change. I'm optimistic that I
keep hearing, you know, little bits and pieces coming out
of this administration. We need to do something about PBMs.
(21:56):
That could happen. I use the gangster profile in this book.
Connor Devlin is an Irish gangster. He was raised by
gangsters as a child. He doesn't have a mother and
father and these group of gangsters raise him and they're
running basically, they're running big swaths of Ireland. Is a
gangster system. Well, when he comes here, he simply takes
(22:18):
that and supplants it into the same thing the PBMs
are doing, and it's almost unrecognizable. You almost look at Okay,
here's Connor Devlin's program, here's wall Street's program. And so
you see this interesting, this interesting confrontation between Connor Devlin
and wall Street, and you don't know who you're pulling for.
Connor Devlin is a holy awful person. He's total a
(22:41):
totally awful person. But then you're looking at and you say, well,
you know, wall Street. I don't know. It's a close.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Call, you know. And Mike is a try lawyer. You
fought some of the biggest corporate battles. And I have
to tell you that your last book on human trafficking,
I learned so much. I had no idea the implications
of corporate America in human trafficking. And so I love
the fact that you combine this fictional approach but with
(23:11):
a lot of research and a lot of real life
information in it. And I wonder if you can talk
a little more about how your legal experience has shaped
the storytelling that you preciently.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah, well, basically, I'm a trial lawyer, okay, And that's
all I've ever done, Lorraine. I try cases for lawyers
all over the country. They hire me to come in
if they've got a project that usually involves pharmaceuticals, that
usually involves a corporation that's destroying an ecosystem with chemicals,
or might involve Mom and Pop losing millions of dollars
(23:44):
in their pension programs because of something that's been done
on Wall Street. Those are the only kinds of cases
I handle. And as you might imagine, it's not like
one eight hundred car crash. The people that you're dealing
with are They're awful people. I'd love to say I
hate to cover it with one big swath, but that's
been my That's been my but that's been my experience
(24:05):
most of the time. I tell people when I'm in
trial or when I'm in a deposition, I look at
that person across the table from me, and they're you know,
they're CEOs with the silver hair and you know, the
Armani suits, and they don't look like they have a
criminal element to them. They certainly don't look like sociopaths.
(24:25):
But at the same time, after doing this for forty two
years and taking hundreds and hundreds of these depositions at
the very highest level, I always say, if I had
a DSM five in front of me and I was
doing check check check filling, the filling the checks, is
this person a sociopath? Every single time? Yes, they would
be a sociopath. So so it sounds like an overstatement,
(24:49):
but it really isn't it started. I really started noticing
it back in the tobacco days. By the time you
had opioids come along, you had an industry that's killing
a hundre and fifty people a day conservatively, and doing
that for almost twenty years. I look at this a
little differently. I look at it with a little more
rage maybe than most people do, because I'm in the
(25:10):
center of the fight. I've always been really in this.
In a matter of fact, in the middlemen. I have
a real, I think an important discussion. Why is it
the Department of Justice doesn't step up and do what
they're supposed to do? Okay, why is it that the
CEO that this character, Connor Devlin, he's very sophisticated, all right.
(25:31):
He's six foot four, white hair, impeccable speech, incredible education
that the gangsters gave him when he was in Ireland.
You know, he was very, very sophisticated education. But he
doesn't look like a gangster. He doesn't look like a sociopath.
And so I run into that all the time, Lorraine,
like the book you're talking about in human Trafficking. My god,
(25:54):
you should have been in the room when I was
taken to depositions of the people that were financing all that,
and you look across the table let you say, really, really,
they're allowed to go on. We don't purp walk them
because they don't look like a kid on the street
corner with a hoodie selling five ounces of marijuana. These
(26:15):
people are committing manslaughter. That's no exaggeration. In the opioid industry.
If I were to give you the equivalent, what is
the definition of manslaughter from a legal analysis, Well, it's
that reckless indifference for human life. That's what gets you
to the manslaughter threshold. Right here was a company in
the opioid industry in the book that I wrote on
(26:35):
that was called Law and Addiction. I think you'll enjoy it.
If I were to say, you know, Lorraine, I go
I'm going to drink a fifth of Jack Daniels and
then I'm going to drive ninety miles an hour through
a school zone and if I hit one of those children,
that's manslaughter. I go to prison for a very long time. Thankfully,
we have this legal fiction in our mind, this cultural
(26:58):
fiction towards. They're from Harvard, they have an MBA, they
graduate at the top of their class, they have impeccable speech,
they can talk about the classics. They love opera. They
wear Armani's suits, they have a Rolex watch. They drove
up in a Bentley. So all of a sudden we
(27:19):
look at them differently, don't we. We say, no, they're
not a criminal. There's nothing sociopathic about them. But in
my experience, and you must believe me, in forty two
years doing this the ugliest cases in this country, this
is what I come away with. And my wife says
to me, she says, Mike, take off that cynical hat
sometimes and let's look at let's look the rosier and glasses.
(27:41):
But inevitably, when I'm writing these books, all of that
comes surging. It just comes rolling at me, and I say,
how can I not talk about these issues? So I
try to round out all of those issues and all
these books. I think the Middleman I really accomplish that.
But it's a great story, Lorraine. It's not all hell
and damnation. It's a mixture, a little bit of a
(28:02):
love story that goes bad. It talks about the humanity
that we should expect from people who who are at
the very top of the pecking order, that we should
expect more humanity from them, and we don't get it.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
You have shined the light on so many different issues,
including big tobacco, human trafficking, the weapons manufacturers, and of
course the latest big pharma. The Middleman is a gripping
legal thriller that explores the dark world of pharmacy benefit managers.
And if you think that's not sexy and exciting, well
(28:35):
think again, because this book will tell you all about
this hidden element that causes the prices of our drugs
to rise beyond all reason. But it does it in
a way that both entertains and educates. Mike Papantonio, renowned
trial lawyer, media personality and best selling author.
Speaker 4 (28:56):
Thank you for all you do, Lorraine. Thank you for
the opportunity to talk to you. I've been looking forward
to this interview.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
You can listen to all of today's interviews by going
to our station website and typing in keyword Community. You
can also listen on the iHeartRadio app Keywords Philadelphia Community Podcast.
Follow me on Twitter and Instagram at Lorraine Ballard. I'm
Lorraine Ballard Morel and I stand for service to our
community and media that empowers. What will you stand for?
(29:23):
You've been listening to what's going on, and thank you
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