November 12, 2021 • 45 mins
We catch up with award-winning journalist John Ziegler on today's edition of the Fifth Hour. John has enjoyed a long distinguished career wearing many hats in radio, TV, documentary films, and internet media, he's spent the better part of the past decade investigating the Penn State Football scandal frame by frame and believes he has uncovered new evidence that should turn the Joe Paterno, Jerry Sandusky narratives upside down. Buckle up for a wild ride! Follow John on Twitter @Zigmanfreud / Follow Ben on Twitter @BenMaller and listen to the original "Ben Maller Show," Monday-Friday on Fox Sports Radio, 2a-6a ET, 11p-3a PT!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
If you thought four hours a day, minutes a week
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break free for something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben
(00:24):
Maller starts right now in the air everywhere the weekend
has begun. Welcome in. It is a fresh, piping hot
edition of The Fifth Hour with Ben Mallard. Because four
hours a night are not enough. On the overnight, we
(00:47):
do this eight days a week, and you know the drill.
On Fridays in the Magic Podcast Studio and a secret
location somewhere in the north Woods, we like to have
a conversation on the Fifth Hour and bring people in
who are interesting, fascinating, rivet ng And we have one
of those type figures today. We welcome in a man
(01:09):
who is a social media foot soldier. He's a political columnist.
He is an old talk show host. I first heard
this particular person back in the day at KFI in
l A as a talk show hosted a talk show
at night, and I said this guy is good. I
like this guy. I like his passion, his enthusiasm, the
(01:32):
way he approaches talk radio. I really enjoyed that. And
he moved on and he has done a bunch of
documentaries and written political columns. So let's welcome in now,
John Ziegler. He's noticed the Penn State guy. We are
going to get to that, John, the Penn State stuff,
but let's start with you and the fact that you
(01:52):
originally got into the media business as a sports guy
and then you made the quantum leap who firebrand political pundit.
How did that happen? Well, Um, I've done a lot
of things in a very mediocre fashion in my media career.
I began as a TV sportscaster. My first on air
(02:16):
job was in Steubenville, Ohio, Wheeling, West Virginia, back in
the early nineties at w t o v TV, the
NBC affiliate, where I was a sports anchor reporter. And
then I went and did that at the Fox affiliate
in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Um, I realized a couple
of things. That one that my rather controversial, outspoken nature
(02:39):
was not really suited for network sportscasting, so I went
into talk radio and that's what eventually led me to
here in Los Angeles and the KFI, which at the
time was the number one talk station in the country.
And then after that, UM, I started get into documentary
films and more I guess you would call an investigative
(02:59):
journe realism and commentary and column writing and and so
that's where I am today. So I've done a lot
of different things, um, none of which in a particularly
spectacular fashion, but it's been interesting. Well, I enjoyed. John.
You've been very outspoken about the zeitgeist of the times,
with you know, doing sports radio. We had no sports
(03:20):
last year, everything was shut down. Sports are back, but
everything's been politicized and and all that. And you've been
very outspoken about all the ridiculous UM rules and regulations
and and is is there any end of this? I mean,
you've you've been ranting day after day about it, John,
Is there an end of the madness? Well, I have
(03:42):
to say, and someone needs to tell this story. I've
actually tried to tell this story, and I've been yet
been successful in doing so in a documentary form. But
I believe that sports played an intricral role, intricral in
what happened with our reaction to COVID, and it was
all negative, and it was all based on panic and stupidity.
(04:05):
And we're not getting too deeply into it. This this
might shock you. I don't know how much you've thought
about this, but I actually think that one of the
biggest decisions in the entire reaction of the pandemic, the
one that set off a remarkable domino effect from which
we may never recover, was when the IVY League decided
to cancel their basketball tournament in March of Until that happened,
(04:29):
we were still in the rational world. But within twenty
four two, two thirty six hours after that, the entire
world changed, and it changed not based on science, not
based on logic, based on the idea wall. The smart
guys of the IVY League decided that they couldn't even
have their tournament forget about this, you know, not having fans,
(04:50):
they couldn't even play the tournament. Uh, then we have
to do the same, and including golf, which as a golfer,
I will always be totally offended by how golf handled
this thing. Golf should have been a leader in showing
us that we can survive this, because it was perfectly
designed to do so. But because golf is seen as
(05:12):
a white male, conservative sport at the time tied to
Donald Trump, it was very politicized and they were terrified
that they would get destroyed if they were the only
sports still standing, so they came like everybody else, even
though to this day not one golfer has ever even
gotten sick from COVID and UH and you know, as
an outdoor sport with inherent social distancing, there was no
(05:34):
reason why golf should not have maintain itself. And frankly,
I think the most recent you know data would act
what we've seen with college football this year. I think
the entire notion that outdoor crowds are a threat is
a complete myth, and golf, especially being as outdoors that
can get I don't think could have should have even
(05:57):
at any limitations on it self based upon COVID, and
I don't think anybody would have ever been endangered by that.
So sports played an incredibly important role and how we
got here, and also in why it's we've been so
slow to get out of this because the woke sports
media and I don't understand this at all, and I
(06:18):
the only thing that makes any sense to me is
that it was all seen as in an election year,
as as a way to get it Donald Trump. But
the woke sports media went all in, all in on this,
and you know, frankly, sports fans ought to be furious
at the sports media. You know, these commercials and ESPN runs,
well they say welcome back to college football, and they
(06:40):
celebrate the fan. What a what a load of crap?
That is ESPN openly campaigned for a over a year
for you not to be allowed to go see us
a sports event. And how they're gonna I mean so, um,
I really do believe that sports played an incredibly erosive
(07:00):
role here. And as far as how we get out
of this, the reaction to Aaron Aaron Rodgers, We're never
getting out of this, I mean, this thing is business
forever in some realms. I mean, college football seems to
be about the only place that it has mostly emerged
from this. And um, and that's again it's it's largely
(07:21):
before political reasons. It's only in the Deep South that politically,
you know, these institutions are able to do this. And
what's really shocking and usibly my last point before right
shut up, I honestly thought that when you know, a
good number of sports teams started to get back to normal,
(07:42):
and they did so without incident that everyone else would follow.
But that really hasn't been the case because, I guess
because we're now living in a world where you have
to signal your virtue by continuing with these restrictions, and
if you don't, in certain areas, you're considered to be
bad people, even though it has absolutely no science. Find
it well, and John, it really is. And you brought
(08:04):
up the South and that whole thing that the Dodgers,
I was just some Dodger playoff games. They're playing the
Atlanta Braves in the NLCS and and it's a totally
different world in Atlanta going to a Major League Baseball
game than Los Angeles. And and the Dodgers when they
opened it up and they allowed people to to not
wear masks, that lasted for a little while, and then
(08:26):
you know, the politicians got involved in no, you gotta
you gotta put the mass on. And of course, you know,
being out there, John, it was mostly people to enter
the stadium, you had to have the mask on. And
then after that people pretty much did what people do
and they took the mask off. And and live their
life well to that point. I actually think that that
college football, especially is the ultimate proof that most people
(08:49):
don't really believe in masks, because if they did. Let's
pretend people really believe that masks worked, right, you wouldn't
you would see more than a handful of me that's
in a back stadium with eighty thousand people. Yeah. But
but but it's all about the politics. It's all about
peer pressure. And when people are in a situation where
(09:12):
the non maskers have control, they don't bother the mask
because they feel no compulsion to do so, because they
don't really believe in the science of it. They're just
going along because they don't want to win yelling at them.
That's what this is about and and the mask. But
I am positive, I am positive that masks do nothing
(09:33):
to hinder the spread of COVID. Now, now I've I've
I've mentioned this and I've seen some of the data
you've you've been outspoken about. Explain to the person listening now,
because when I've said this in the past, I've gotten
some pushback. So explain. You've actually seen the same numbers
you've seen, probably more numbers than I've seen that there
is no correlation, right that it is pretty much for
(09:55):
theatrics to wear the mask for the most part, for
most people. Right well, from every single angle, the mask
the pro mask narrative makes no sense. First of all,
before COVID, we had tons of studies on masks and
the flu, which is the same type of virus as
COVID is. It's not in most of the the cases, is
(10:17):
not as bad, but it's the same. It's talking about
the same animal. Here there are There were about a
dozen studies Donne in the previous decade about masks and
the flu. Not one of them showed any real impact
of masks. And that was before this became politicized. This
is why Dr Fauci said at the beginning of this
(10:37):
whole thing, don't bother wearing a mask. Now he's completely
lied about why he said that and what he said,
and but that was the conventional wisdom before COVID. Let's
under let's understand why that changed. It changed not because
the science came in, not because because we suddenly had
new data and here we have unprecedented amounts of data
(11:00):
we've never had before over the last nineteen months. It
changed because liberals in this country have changed. Now I'm
not talking about Asia. Asia is completely different culturally, and
Asia has been misinterpreted. But in this country, the mass
became popular among the left as a virtue signal against
Trump and a security blanket, that's what it was. And
(11:23):
once they become deeply invested in that, there's no going back,
deep emotional investment. And I'm a big believer, been huge believer,
And I assume we're gonna get to this with regard
to the Penn State case, which is a classic example
of this, when when if something is true, then you
must look at what you would expect to happen if
(11:45):
that was true. And here we have this unprecedented amount
of data for nineteen months. We've never done data like
this ever before. So if mass actually worked, there would
be O. J. Simpson level evidence of it by now
O J. Simpson. Instead, there's nothing, nothing, there's and and frankly,
(12:05):
here in southern California we have the best example of it.
If you chart the rate of spread in Los Angeles
County versus Orange County, which is are obviously butted against
each other sat climate, you know the same basic everything.
L A is a mass capital of the of the country.
Orange County currently has no mash mandate. No one's wearing
(12:27):
masks there. From the beginning, no one wore masks as
much in Orange County as they did in l A County,
caause Orange County is much less liberal. The chart is
identical except for one thing. The case right in Orange
County is always a little bit less than that of
Los Angeles County, but it could not be more identical,
(12:48):
which shows me that this whole thing, I actually believe
what we do has very little impact over the spread
of the virus. I think it's partially seasonal. I think
it's parsonal. Actually luck or bad luck. The whole notion
that we have have control over a virus is a fantasy. Uh,
it's the idea that man can control nature. And and frankly,
(13:13):
so much of this is as a result of liberal insanity.
And you know, I'm I'm not a Trump guy. I mean,
I'm a conservative, but I'm not a Trump guy. And
I just I just think so much of this was
in reaction to liberals losing their minds in an election
year when Donald Trump was was president well, and John
the thing too about the last year and a half,
the follow the science mantra which we hear so often
(13:37):
in and I learned when I was in school that
you know, there science is just people disagreeing. So it
has totally become politicized. And you know, on both sides,
people pick what they want and what they believe in,
and they you can it's like doctor shopping, right, John.
You find a scientist that will tell you what you
want and then you just go with it. Science has
(14:00):
become so politicized, and I find this to be a tragic,
and it's so it's really a weapon. Follow the science
is a weapon of the left. It's basically shut up. Uh,
you know, we we don't have the proof to back
up our side, so we're just gonna rely on well
all the scientists, say well, what what's the motivation of
all the scientists? And again there's a relationship to this
(14:23):
what happened at the Penn State when when all the
experts are saying one thing on a controversial topic, nobody
wants to go outside of that herd because if they
go outside of that herd on a big topic, we're
gonna get run over because there's an incentive of the
herd to not have anyone embarrassed them. And you know
this is a my My grandfather was a rather well
(14:45):
known rocket scientist for the United States. Came over from
Germany and Operation paper Clip, and his claim to fame
was actually with regard to our first satellite in space.
He told the Navy there was no gnass of the
time he was working for the Army. He told the
Navy that they were full the crap when it came
to the way they were going to try to power
our first satellite, and he fought like hell to put
(15:06):
these things called solar panels on and they laughed at him. Well,
within a few hours of our first satellite turned out
the Navy was wrong, he was right. And the rest
is history. I mean so unpopular positions throughout it, throughout
the history of science have always turned out that are
not always turned out, but often turned out to be
(15:26):
the right way to go. And group think is always
very dangerous and we have seen it here. And it's
not about science. It's about politics, pure politics, not just
the Democrat and Republican type of politics, but the politics
of people who are within the science community. No one
wants to lose their position in the cool kids table
(15:49):
at school, that's what this is about. Be sure to
catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at
two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
and the Radio. Well and also, John, it seems like
you're on Twitter a lot, and I'm in their affair
amount It's like that has so much power now, and
you mentioned the group think, and you know, everyone wants
(16:11):
to be involved with the cool kids and all that,
but the the Twitter ROTI the wocaati that all get
together on on Twitter, and and the media companies. You've
been in the media business your your entire life. Here
the amount of power that the algorithms have on what
the news of the day is is insane and is
(16:32):
here's another one of those questions, John, where I look
at that and I've seen some of the studies about
how how few people actually provide content the Twitter based
on the amount of people you know, in America, for example,
here we talked about, you know, many people actually contribute.
There's a lot of people that are on there that
don't actually add to the conversation. But media companies, and
(16:53):
you know, I work for you one in particular, and
and the some other big ones, they just whatever Twitter
says that goal with it, like that's the gospel. Is
there any getting back from that? They've given so much power.
I couldn't agree with you more that Twitter has extraordinarily
outsized power in driving the narrative. And you know, especially
(17:14):
now that Trump has gone from Twitter, and I'm assuming
many of his supporters are too, It's it is unbelievable.
I mean, they have a stranglehold on the narrative of Twitter.
And you know, media members love Twitter. Why because it's
one of the few places well, frankly, all comes down
to this. On Twitter, especially woke media members can get
(17:38):
lots of affirmation and love at any moment. All they
have to do is tweet out some you know, some
PC bullcrap and they're gonna get thousands of bread tweets
and they will get affirmation and love. And that's what
they want. And on Twitter, the media because they're all
got blue check marks. I mean, how even I have
a blue checkmark? The the that's this is a place
(18:02):
where they are deemed to be important people and they
get respect and their opinion is deemed matter and so
this is why they love it, and therefore they publicize
it more and it becomes you know, the symbiotic relationship.
And I think you're exactly right that the number of
people that are actually driving this as a percentage of
the population is minuscule, which is why we see, you know,
(18:27):
the election results in Virginia last week be so completely
different than you know what the world the Twitter would
have indicated. Yeah, and I use the analogy, you know,
dealing with Twitter, mostly in the sports world, but just
in general, it's like the matrix. You don't know what's
real and what's not, and you know, you the algorithms,
(18:48):
the bots that are on there. It is a wild
world in that space. And yet again, the major media
companies love it. And as you said, the meat you
people like it too. Well. It's easy also, right, Uh.
As a reporter, if you needed to get feedback from
somebody for a story, a quote for a story, you'd
have to go out and chase people down. Now you
(19:09):
can just go on Twitter on your phone and get
comments from random people and put that in your story
and boom, you're done. Right, You're you're good to go.
You can wash your hands with it and move on
to the next one. So uh, yeah, I wanted to
move over that now I love documentaries, John, I am
obsessed with documentaries. I love that you're making documentaries. You
(19:30):
but this Penn State story, which you have been all
over and you talked about your past, But why this story?
You are known as the Pen Steak Guy. I was
talking to a friend of mine and I I said, I'm
gonna have John Zigler on the on the podcast. Oh
he's the Penn Steak guy. You're the Penn Steak Guy. John.
You've become that you've been all over this story for
ten years. Uh. While you know most other people have
(19:52):
moved on, you have stuck with it. You've got a
podcast that you've done, You've written a number of stories.
One of the reasons I wanted to have you on here,
and your latest alumn you wrote about your experience ten
years almost You have been all over the Penn State
story and you have a very unpopular opinion for a
lot of people that they don't want to hear what
you have to say about this because it goes against
(20:15):
everything that was reported ten years ago. But for those
that don't know, maybe the one or two people listening
that don't know the back store in this, John, explain
how you fell down this rabbit hole with Penn State.
It's crazy. Um, this is the most extraordinary experience of
my life and career. In many ways, it has been
(20:36):
the most interesting. It's also been the most excruciating. It's
been the best work of my career. But it's also
something that I wish I had never done. And I
think it tells a lot about the times in which
we live, which is why this story is way bigger
than just the Penn State scandal. Obviously, what people know
is that Jerry Zandowski was arrested on child sex abuse charges,
and then a few days later, ten years ago this week,
(20:58):
Joe Paterno was fired on a cell phone just before
his last home game to Stetory. Had become the winner's
coach and history of college football. The president university, Grand Spaniard,
was also fired. Two Pence State administrators were effectively also fired,
and they were charged. The three administrators ended up going
to jail for two months. Jerry Sandusky is still in
(21:18):
jail and almost certainly will die in jail. And I
have no connection Defense State. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia,
not really that close to State College, but I was
a Notre Dame fan growing up I went to Georgetown University,
but I know the news media better than anybody on
the planet, especially now. Even back in two thousand eleven,
I knew the news media very well, and I knew
(21:41):
that this was the case, that they were extraordinarily vulnerable,
especially under the perfect storm circumstances in the middle of
a moral panic of blowing. I also have an extraordinary
BS detector. And this story never made a damn bit
of sense, not from the Sandosky perspective. I did not
go into this thinking, all right, Jerry Sandusky must be innocent.
(22:01):
I'm gonna I'm gonna exonerate Jerry Sandusky. That was the
first thing from my mind. I was talking about the
Joe paternal angle on this. It made no sense and
it's a completely nonsensical story for anybody who understands sports.
I mean, I had coached high school football in two
different states, covered college and pro football at a very
high level. I know the culture of football, I know
(22:23):
the culture of Penn State that I frankly, just from
a human perspective, none of this story made any damn sense.
Now that doesn't mean it doesn't true. You know, j
doesn't make any sense that though j Simpson would kill
two people, but there's a ton of evidence though j
Simpson killed two people, ton of it, and there was
no evidence here that made any sense. And so I
(22:44):
started getting involved, and at first it was from the
perspective of Joe Paterno, and it was became very obvious,
very early that that the idea of that Joe paternal
participated in the cover up for Jerry Sonduski was absurd,
completely absurd, and even the prosecutor in the case eventually
told h e oh that he didn't believe that that happened. Uh,
And the media course ignored that because they already had
(23:04):
their narrative and Joe Paterno was dead at that point. Long,
long story short. I kept digging and digging and digging
because Joe Paterno on his deathbed said just find out
what the truth is, and nobody seemed to be interested
in what the truth of this was. And I wanted
to find a narrative that actually had some evidence behind
it and made some damn sense, And eventually I ended
up an interviewing Jayson Dusky in prison twice for a
(23:25):
total of six hours. I want on the Today Show
to do high profile interviews with Matt Lawer not once,
but twice, the second one with Doddie Sandusky back in,
and eventually I became completely, totally, one hundred percent convinced,
without a shred of doubt against my own self interest.
But not only was Joe Paterno innocent, not only were
(23:47):
the administrators innocent, but the only way to make this
story fit at all, that make the puzzle pieces of
this story fit was that Jerry Sandusky is also innocent.
And it's not even close. And we created a podcast
called With the Benefit of Hindsight, which is an epic
journey through the real story of what really happened here.
(24:08):
It's twenty one episode. Is It Ends? As we just
posted a couple of days ago with a four hour
exclusive interview with the former president of the Penn State,
Graham Spaniard. We have two of the administrators who went
to jail on the podcast, both of whom make it
very clear that they believe that Jerry Sandusky is in
fact innocent, which is shocking and should be national news.
(24:28):
But the news media doesn't work that way anymore. And
the evidence that we have accumulated both in breaking down
the convention wisdom of this case and telling you what
actually really did happen is extraordinary. It's it's it's I
mean people who have no connection to me, who have
fallen on on the podcast with the benefit of hindsight,
(24:50):
I'd say we've had hundreds and hundreds of people, not
thousands of contact me to say this is the greatest
podcast they've ever heard and they don't even really have
any connection to Penn State. Uh and uh and in
it extraordinary achievement, But it's not gonna do any good
because the news media as their narrative and once they're
this invested, they're never going back. They're never going back
because they put too many chips down on this one.
(25:12):
Then and and and um and I'm telling you it's
not close. I'm telling you, But Jo, what was the moment,
because you know a lot of people might be listening
to the same What are you doing Jerry Sanduski's you know,
he molested children, He's in jail for the rest of
his life. Here, what are you saying because you talked
to him, and yet what was the thing that led you?
(25:32):
Was there one thing in particular other than talking to
Jerry Sandusky and his wife that we let may be clear.
Let maybe it's a great question, because I'm gonna be clear.
I didn't talk to Jerry. Sanduski gets snowed. I'm just checking.
I'm just checking John. I just want there were there
were uh two hundred data points before I even talked
(25:54):
to Jerry, and then there and then after I talked
to Jerry the first time I didn't. I went out
of the prison that day saying, oh my god, please
don't let him be innocent. Please don't let him be innocent,
because I know this is going to ruin my life,
because I know myself well enough to know I'm not
going to be level able to let this go. Because
I'm the only one in the position to tell this story.
(26:17):
I don't want this. So I spent a year trying
to prove him guilty, Ben and I couldn't do it
because there's no damn evidence and everything he told me
checked out a thousand percent. And then I got deeper
and deeper and deeper, and it's not close. This this
story is absurd, and we you asked, Okay, what was
the moment. There's so many moments, But you know, Malcolm
(26:39):
Gladwell wrote a book called Talking to Strangers, the best seller.
He's a very famous author and Talking to Strangers best
seller book. There's a chapter, chapter five in there, which
basically deals with my work on this case, and glad
Well goes right up to the precipice of saying Sandusky
is innocent, but doesn't have the courage to do so.
I think he actually changed his mind of the publisher
(27:00):
changed there his mind at the last minute. But one
of the key pieces of information in that chapter is
maybe the biggest revelation that we have found, and there's
been there's so many of these it's hard to know
for sure. But for me, this whole story starts, and
this is the first episode of our podcast with the
benefit of hindsight. It all starts with the date of
the Mike mcquerie episode. You know, to me, you're you're
(27:24):
gonna make an allegation as Mike mcquery did that. I
you know, I witnessed Jerryson Dusky. He's actually assaulting a
young boy in a Penn State shower. The first thing
you want to know is, Okay, when did this happen?
The vast majority of people, even media members, ben don't
know that. When he testified for the first time, and
this was reported widely ten years ago. This week he
(27:47):
said that this happened on March one of two thousand
and two, and that's you know, that was the date
that Joe Paterno thought this happened when he died a
couple of months after the scandal. But then very qui
lightly and the media was very diligent about covering this up.
Just before Jerry Sinowski's trial, the prosecution had to announce, um, oops, um,
(28:10):
Mike got the date, the month, and the year wrong,
because now we have emails that prove when he went
to go see Joe Paterno, and so now we are surmising,
based upon those emails, does this actually happened in February
February ninth of the year before two thousand one, thirteen
months before what had been widely reported. When Paterno got fired,
(28:34):
Spaniard got fired, all firestorms started. And my my reaction was, Woa, woa,
woo woo woo woo, woa, We're gonna put all of
this on a story that's ten years old, where we
have no accuser at this point none. The media just
ignored that part of this and where the witness this
during incredibly dramatic event. He can't tell you the date,
(28:57):
the month, or the year in which had happened. And
then it gets better, And this is where I made
my biggest screw up of the entire case. I should
have been able to figure out that even that second
date was wrong very early on in my investigation. But
even I felt like, there's no possible way the prosecution
could get this so wrong twice, but they did. The
(29:21):
second date is a fabrication. Mike mcquerie did not witnessed
this event on February ninth of two thousand one, and
then go see Joe Paterno on the next morning. That's
not what happened. He saw this, or witness this whatever.
It was a shower with a boy, and that's a
whole different story who the boy was on December twenty nine,
(29:41):
two thousand. I've now proven that Malcolm Gladwell believes. I've
proven that Gary Schultz, the administrator, believes. I've proven that
Grand Span of the President believes. I've proven that Jerry
Sandusky believes. I've proven that because even he couldn't remember
what the date was, he just knew that the prosecution's
date was wrong. And the reason why that's so critical,
then is it? Now there's a six week gap, six
(30:02):
weeks in the time that this happens, and Mike mcquery
first reports it, not to the police but to Joe
Paternal in the morning in February ten, two thousand one.
And then here's the kicker. What happened on February uh
the day before he goes to see Joe paternal Sebury nine,
two thousand one. What what might have been the trigger
for why Mike McQuary goes to see Joe paternal Not
(30:24):
this six weeks old witnessing of Jerry in a shower
with a boy. No, the job that Mike mcquery wanted,
the wide receiver's coaching job opens up at Penn State
when Kenny Jackson leaves Penn State to go to the
Pittsburgh's Dealers. It's in the paper the morning of February ninth,
two thousand and then, Whailah, Just by coincidence, Mike McQuary
(30:48):
goes to see Joe Paterno on February tenth. That morning.
He's not going there to tell him, oh my god, Joe,
I saw Jerry Zudoski raping a boy last night. He's
going there to see what or not he can get
the Kenny Jackson job and the oh, by the way, coach,
I saw Jerry in a in a shower with a boy.
It made me uncomfortable. You might want to talk to
(31:09):
him about it. That was the afterthought of what happened,
and all the evidence supports that scenario. And when the
Mike mcquery episode disintegrates into not a rape of a boy,
but of Jerry Sandusky showering after a workout with a
thirteen year old he thought of as a son by
the name of Alan Myers, whose own testimony is very
(31:31):
clear that nothing bad ever happened between him and Jerry Zandusky,
then now all of a sudden, the pillar of the
case has just been disintegrated and the case falls apart
from there. And that's really the key element of this
or people to understand. Once you understand the Mike mcquery
episode was a fabrication, then you understand that the rest
(31:55):
of this case and in an incredible easy fashion and
a domino effect of of a perfect storm of panic
and injustice. All right, So then the question would be,
if that's the case, and you've been investigating this, why
would there not be some kind of opening up of
the case again and looking it over, because, as you said,
(32:15):
Jerry Sanduski is likely going to to die in in jail.
If if what you're saying is accurate and this is
all all checks out, why couldn't they go back and
open up Because that's not There's a couple of reasons. One,
that's not the way this system works. That's not the
way the legal system works. In order for Jerry Sandowski
(32:37):
to get a new trial, they have to prove a
constitutional issue with the due process of the first trial. Now,
in a irrational world, that would be incredibly easy. I
have to tell you, even if Jerry Sandowski was guilty,
even if he was guilty, his trial was such an
(32:57):
unbelievable joke that if it was not a famous case,
if there was not politics involved, a new trial would
have been a faded complete I mean, I've I've watched
a hundred date lines where people get new trials based
upon one one thousands of the due process issues that
were involved in Jerry Sandowski's trial. But here's where the
(33:18):
perfect storm comes in. In Pennsylvania, all the judges are elected,
and because of the politics of this case, because of
the media coverage of this case. Any judge that orders
a new trial for Jerry Sandowski is effectively ending their career,
and Jerry Sanowski's lawyer himself has been shocked time and
time again. People don't even understand Jerry is still appealing
(33:41):
on a regular basis that never happens in a serial
child molester case. You I would I defy anyone to
find me a serial child molester case with no pornography,
no confession, no plea bargain, and where the person who
end up getting convicted is still appealing vigorously with no money,
(34:02):
no political capital, ten years later. That never ever, ever,
ever happens. And the reason why it's happening in this
case is because you have an innocent man who has
no other choice. He's fighting for his life and he
doesn't understand because he's very naive that he that he
will never getting fair shake in Pennsylvania because of the
(34:24):
politics involved, because everyone is so deeply invested in this
fairy tale. That's why this cannot be reversed. I have
urged him, and other people close to him, including his lawyer,
have urged him to go to federal court. But if
he goes to federal court and he loses. His life
is over because now he has nothing to do, he
has nothing to focus on, he has no hope I have.
(34:46):
I've given this analogy to his family. I think it's
a good one. In state court, he can keep going
back and appealing basically every six months or a year.
So basically, for the rest of Jerry Sanduski's life, he
gets to run a fourth and seventy five play, you know,
every six months or a year. He's never gonna make
that fourth and seventy five, but he gets to keep trying.
(35:07):
If he goes to federal court, he gets one shot
at fourth and six, and if he misses the fourth
and six, his life is over. And he cannot handle
that from a psychological standpoint. So that's the answer to
your question. Be sure to catch live editions of The
Ben Miller Show weekdays at two a m. Eastern eleven
p m. Pacific. So, John, you've done the podcast talking
(35:27):
about this, You've covered it. What is next for you
on this st are you? Are you done with the
Penn State story and now has been ten years. Are
you going to continue to follow this or are you
just gonna move on to something else? What's the plan here, Well,
I still want people to listen to our podcast with
the benefit of hindsight. It's a remarkable historical document. You
don't even have to care about the Penn State case
(35:49):
to be interested in the podcast. It tells you so
much about the nature of our media, the nature of
our our system, the nature of humanity. By the way,
I've had a lot of people tell me this organical,
and I did this on purpose. I actually think you
can understand a lot about our reaction to COVID, as
I've already implied in this interview, by by listening to
this podcast. I mean, the parallels are remarkable, you know,
(36:12):
the the reaction to everything in a panic, the politics,
the propaganda, the emotional investment, the lack of evidence supporting
what we're doing. But there's no way to get out
of this, and there's so many comparisons, So I really
want people to check out with the benefit of hindsight.
I um fully acknowledge that that the ten year marked
(36:34):
for me psychologically. I was spen pointing as the time
when I I end this for me. Um you know,
there there are a couple of things that were supposed
to happen on the tenth anniversary that have been delayed.
ESPN is has been planning a special I have no
faith in them at all, but those who have been
interviewed for it say that it's far more pro paternal
(36:55):
than anything LS ESPN has ever done before. And there's
a mainstream news media, let a print outlet that's been
investigating this case or two years from what seems to
be a very pro Jerry Zandowski perspective. For some reason,
they have not hit the tenth anniversary. So unfortunately, those
are gonna still hang over my head, as you know,
some semblance of hope that theoretically something might change, even
(37:17):
though I have grave skepticism about that. But I have
to tell you my experience in this case, combined with
my experience with COVID, combined with having gone through the
Trump era, I'm now at the point where I don't
even know why I bothered to be part of the
public discourse, because we're now living in a world where
(37:38):
truth means nothing. In fact, when I ended the documentary
film I did about the Penn State case back at
two thousand twelve, called The Framing of Joe Paternal you
can find it for free at YouTube, I end the
documentary by saying, one of these we're gonna fight out
in this case is whether or not the truth still matters?
And uh, And here we are now nine years after that,
(37:58):
and at least we now know the truth does not matter.
The truth does not matter in today's world. And I'm
a truth guy. I am not a you know, give
you what you want to hear for to make me
popular guy. That's what sells in the media now, the
coin of the realm, and the media used to be
mostly truth. Now it's all popularity. It's all tell people
(38:21):
what they want to hear. And there's there's reasons why
that happened once. I'm happy to go into if you're interested,
But the reality is that's the case. And you know,
I don't know what I'm gonna do, but there's a
there's a reasonable chance that in the next few weeks
or whatever, a month, you may never hear from me again.
I may just go off the grid and just say
screw it, because it's just it's just not worth it
(38:44):
to me. I just don't have is This has never
been a money making endeavor for me. It's not about
making a living. And now you can't even tell the
truth in any platform or forum that that makes any
difference if it doesn't fit with what the corporate media wants. Well, yeah,
and John, I mean I just to follow that up.
(39:05):
I mean, the thing we deal with it a lot
in the sports world, but in politics it's even worse.
It's tribalism, right, It's like you gotta give the give
the red meat to the people that you know need
the red meat, and not you know, not give them
anything other than that. And you know, it's it's become
even worse over the last like five ten years, it's
gotten completely out of the media is now all about
(39:29):
finding a tribe that fits you know, who you are,
and then feeding that tribe what they want. That's what
this is, which is the exact opposite of what journalism
is supposed to be. And I don't believe journalism was
ever perfect, but it was a lot better than it
is now, that's for sure. Well, you mentioned you mentioned
John and your in your column that you wrote h
(39:52):
the latest column about the Penn State story, and I'm
sure you mentioned this on the on the the podcast
you did that the modern media, Uh, it's it's you
compared it to the movie industry, right, the way that
they handle things in media today. Can you expand on that?
And because I I think that was a thank you,
thank you for pointing that out, because I do think
(40:13):
it's true. You know, movies, and I know here we
are in Los Angeles and Pensiltown, the movies, even movies
that were about true stories, they used to at least
say based on a true story, right, and now the
dramatic license has gotten so ridiculous that basically it's just
(40:34):
based on theoretical stuff that might have been true, probably wasn't.
But you know what makes a great story. I mean
that that's that's the new standard in Hollywood for a
supposed non fiction movie. Well, the news media is following
that model. Is all now about narrative. What's the most
compelling narrative we can find? So so we're gonna cobble
(40:58):
together these fun means what seemed to be facts. We
don't even know if they're really facts, but they're you know,
fact ish, and we're gonna cobble these together, and we're
gonna get cocked the narrative that is most salacious and
best for us in that moment. And we've seen this
constantly and you know, I think again, I'm not a
(41:19):
trunk guy, but I think the media did that with
the Trump Russia investigation. I mean, all you know, basically
Trump was a Manchurian candidate, right because they cobbled together, um,
you know, some of these things that seemed to be facts.
And I think Trump actually did some things wrong with
reguard to to Russia, but he's clearly not a Manchurian candidate.
We've seen it in so many other situations. I mean,
(41:41):
this keeps happening, you know. I've often said that the
Penn State cases that commonents, Like if I was pitching
in as a movie, it's basically Faraknos meets Jesse small
Act meets man Ti Teo meets Duke Lacrosse. I mean,
I mean that's basically me what it is. Um And
(42:01):
it keeps happening because the media falls in love with narrative,
and then once they fall in love, there's no going
back because, as we've seen with COVID, nobody ever wants
to admit they were wrong. It's amazing. I mean, I'm
the only guy and I know that I admit I'm
wrong all the time. I frankly, as a married guy,
(42:23):
I thought that came a second nature. You admit you're
wrong constantly. I mean, but it's just amazing to me
that no one ever wants to admit that they were wrong.
We all got it wrong about Penn State, and it
created a massive injustice to destroy the lives of five
really good men, and an institution's reputation was destroyed forever,
and a lot of other people got hurt tangentially. But
(42:46):
this story is much bigger than that, because if it
can happen to them, it can happen to anybody. And
it shows us so much about what is wrong with
our culture. And frankly, I don't think it's gonna get
any better. I think it's only gonna get worse. It's
also it's also human nature, though, right, I mean, people,
you know basic marketing. I remember taking a marketing class
back in in college and they said, you gotta get
(43:08):
kids early. That's why the happy meal is so successful,
is because once somebody makes their mind up that something's
good or bad or right or wrong, they don't Nobody
wants to change their mind. But it is even worse
now than you know, at any other point I in
my life anyway, I don't know before that. But it's
and and there's a lot of reasons why it happened,
(43:29):
why it can't be fixed. But a large part of
this has to do with fragmentation of the news media.
Because we you know, back in the in the in
the era where we had four television stations and it
was a license to print money to own a newspaper
or radio station. No one needed to do this. You
didn't have to create the fictional movie. You could actually
(43:51):
run the real movie and it would make movie, It
would make money. You see where I'm going is you
didn't have to juice it. Now you have to juice
said because everyone is so desperate for every scrap of
ratings they can get, because the business model is broken.
That's the heart of a problem. And um, and you know,
(44:12):
Penn State really was the first major story that made
this abundantly clear. You know, I will now forever, based
upon what's happened this year, I will now refer to
Penn State as the first let's go Brandon story. I mean,
where where the news media it didn't matter. I mean,
(44:32):
I I truly believe, I truly believe that to this day.
A couple of the major accusers in this case could
come forward, They could do an interview saying we lied
for money. Jerry Zudoski never abused us, and the media
would report that they said, let's go Brandon. That's what
they would do. That's hilarious. Hey, John, listen, I love
(44:54):
you for doing this man, Thank you so much. You
are I love your enthusiasm, your passion as uh as
I told you earlier, but continued success. And how can
people follow you if they want to read your column
and you've obviously made a bunch of documentaries and whatnot,
and you're all over Twitter. Yeah, the best place to
find me is on Twitter. And my Twitter feed is
is a terrible handle. It's zigmn freud z e I
(45:17):
g m A n freud um. Or just look up
for John John Sigler z I E g l e
r uh and everything I do you can find there.
Although our our website for the With the Benefit of
Findsight podcast is www dot Framing Paterno dot com. You
can find all the raw interviews. We did dozens of
hours of raw interviews, but we that's how transparent we are.
(45:39):
We put out the raw unedited interviews we did for
this podcast at Framing Paterno dot com. Awesome. Thank you, John,
appreciate it. Thanks Man,
If you thought four hours a day, minutes a week
was enough, I think again. He's the last remnants of
the old republic, a sole fashion of fairness. He treats
crackheads in the ghetto cutter the same as the rich
pill poppers in the penthouse, to clearing house of hot takes,
break free for something special. The Fifth Hour with Ben
(00:24):
Maller starts right now in the air everywhere the weekend
has begun. Welcome in. It is a fresh, piping hot
edition of The Fifth Hour with Ben Mallard. Because four
hours a night are not enough. On the overnight, we
(00:47):
do this eight days a week, and you know the drill.
On Fridays in the Magic Podcast Studio and a secret
location somewhere in the north Woods, we like to have
a conversation on the Fifth Hour and bring people in
who are interesting, fascinating, rivet ng And we have one
of those type figures today. We welcome in a man
(01:09):
who is a social media foot soldier. He's a political columnist.
He is an old talk show host. I first heard
this particular person back in the day at KFI in
l A as a talk show hosted a talk show
at night, and I said this guy is good. I
like this guy. I like his passion, his enthusiasm, the
(01:32):
way he approaches talk radio. I really enjoyed that. And
he moved on and he has done a bunch of
documentaries and written political columns. So let's welcome in now,
John Ziegler. He's noticed the Penn State guy. We are
going to get to that, John, the Penn State stuff,
but let's start with you and the fact that you
(01:52):
originally got into the media business as a sports guy
and then you made the quantum leap who firebrand political pundit.
How did that happen? Well, Um, I've done a lot
of things in a very mediocre fashion in my media career.
I began as a TV sportscaster. My first on air
(02:16):
job was in Steubenville, Ohio, Wheeling, West Virginia, back in
the early nineties at w t o v TV, the
NBC affiliate, where I was a sports anchor reporter. And
then I went and did that at the Fox affiliate
in Raleigh, North Carolina, and Um, I realized a couple
of things. That one that my rather controversial, outspoken nature
(02:39):
was not really suited for network sportscasting, so I went
into talk radio and that's what eventually led me to
here in Los Angeles and the KFI, which at the
time was the number one talk station in the country.
And then after that, UM, I started get into documentary
films and more I guess you would call an investigative
(02:59):
journe realism and commentary and column writing and and so
that's where I am today. So I've done a lot
of different things, um, none of which in a particularly
spectacular fashion, but it's been interesting. Well, I enjoyed. John.
You've been very outspoken about the zeitgeist of the times,
with you know, doing sports radio. We had no sports
(03:20):
last year, everything was shut down. Sports are back, but
everything's been politicized and and all that. And you've been
very outspoken about all the ridiculous UM rules and regulations
and and is is there any end of this? I mean,
you've you've been ranting day after day about it, John,
Is there an end of the madness? Well, I have
(03:42):
to say, and someone needs to tell this story. I've
actually tried to tell this story, and I've been yet
been successful in doing so in a documentary form. But
I believe that sports played an intricral role, intricral in
what happened with our reaction to COVID, and it was
all negative, and it was all based on panic and stupidity.
(04:05):
And we're not getting too deeply into it. This this
might shock you. I don't know how much you've thought
about this, but I actually think that one of the
biggest decisions in the entire reaction of the pandemic, the
one that set off a remarkable domino effect from which
we may never recover, was when the IVY League decided
to cancel their basketball tournament in March of Until that happened,
(04:29):
we were still in the rational world. But within twenty
four two, two thirty six hours after that, the entire
world changed, and it changed not based on science, not
based on logic, based on the idea wall. The smart
guys of the IVY League decided that they couldn't even
have their tournament forget about this, you know, not having fans,
(04:50):
they couldn't even play the tournament. Uh, then we have
to do the same, and including golf, which as a golfer,
I will always be totally offended by how golf handled
this thing. Golf should have been a leader in showing
us that we can survive this, because it was perfectly
designed to do so. But because golf is seen as
(05:12):
a white male, conservative sport at the time tied to
Donald Trump, it was very politicized and they were terrified
that they would get destroyed if they were the only
sports still standing, so they came like everybody else, even
though to this day not one golfer has ever even
gotten sick from COVID and UH and you know, as
an outdoor sport with inherent social distancing, there was no
(05:34):
reason why golf should not have maintain itself. And frankly,
I think the most recent you know data would act
what we've seen with college football this year. I think
the entire notion that outdoor crowds are a threat is
a complete myth, and golf, especially being as outdoors that
can get I don't think could have should have even
(05:57):
at any limitations on it self based upon COVID, and
I don't think anybody would have ever been endangered by that.
So sports played an incredibly important role and how we
got here, and also in why it's we've been so
slow to get out of this because the woke sports
media and I don't understand this at all, and I
(06:18):
the only thing that makes any sense to me is
that it was all seen as in an election year,
as as a way to get it Donald Trump. But
the woke sports media went all in, all in on this,
and you know, frankly, sports fans ought to be furious
at the sports media. You know, these commercials and ESPN runs,
well they say welcome back to college football, and they
(06:40):
celebrate the fan. What a what a load of crap?
That is ESPN openly campaigned for a over a year
for you not to be allowed to go see us
a sports event. And how they're gonna I mean so, um,
I really do believe that sports played an incredibly erosive
(07:00):
role here. And as far as how we get out
of this, the reaction to Aaron Aaron Rodgers, We're never
getting out of this, I mean, this thing is business
forever in some realms. I mean, college football seems to
be about the only place that it has mostly emerged
from this. And um, and that's again it's it's largely
(07:21):
before political reasons. It's only in the Deep South that politically,
you know, these institutions are able to do this. And
what's really shocking and usibly my last point before right
shut up, I honestly thought that when you know, a
good number of sports teams started to get back to normal,
(07:42):
and they did so without incident that everyone else would follow.
But that really hasn't been the case because, I guess
because we're now living in a world where you have
to signal your virtue by continuing with these restrictions, and
if you don't, in certain areas, you're considered to be
bad people, even though it has absolutely no science. Find
it well, and John, it really is. And you brought
(08:04):
up the South and that whole thing that the Dodgers,
I was just some Dodger playoff games. They're playing the
Atlanta Braves in the NLCS and and it's a totally
different world in Atlanta going to a Major League Baseball
game than Los Angeles. And and the Dodgers when they
opened it up and they allowed people to to not
wear masks, that lasted for a little while, and then
(08:26):
you know, the politicians got involved in no, you gotta
you gotta put the mass on. And of course, you know,
being out there, John, it was mostly people to enter
the stadium, you had to have the mask on. And
then after that people pretty much did what people do
and they took the mask off. And and live their
life well to that point. I actually think that that
college football, especially is the ultimate proof that most people
(08:49):
don't really believe in masks, because if they did. Let's
pretend people really believe that masks worked, right, you wouldn't
you would see more than a handful of me that's
in a back stadium with eighty thousand people. Yeah. But
but but it's all about the politics. It's all about
peer pressure. And when people are in a situation where
(09:12):
the non maskers have control, they don't bother the mask
because they feel no compulsion to do so, because they
don't really believe in the science of it. They're just
going along because they don't want to win yelling at them.
That's what this is about and and the mask. But
I am positive, I am positive that masks do nothing
(09:33):
to hinder the spread of COVID. Now, now I've I've
I've mentioned this and I've seen some of the data
you've you've been outspoken about. Explain to the person listening now,
because when I've said this in the past, I've gotten
some pushback. So explain. You've actually seen the same numbers
you've seen, probably more numbers than I've seen that there
is no correlation, right that it is pretty much for
(09:55):
theatrics to wear the mask for the most part, for
most people. Right well, from every single angle, the mask
the pro mask narrative makes no sense. First of all,
before COVID, we had tons of studies on masks and
the flu, which is the same type of virus as
COVID is. It's not in most of the the cases, is
(10:17):
not as bad, but it's the same. It's talking about
the same animal. Here there are There were about a
dozen studies Donne in the previous decade about masks and
the flu. Not one of them showed any real impact
of masks. And that was before this became politicized. This
is why Dr Fauci said at the beginning of this
(10:37):
whole thing, don't bother wearing a mask. Now he's completely
lied about why he said that and what he said,
and but that was the conventional wisdom before COVID. Let's
under let's understand why that changed. It changed not because
the science came in, not because because we suddenly had
new data and here we have unprecedented amounts of data
(11:00):
we've never had before over the last nineteen months. It
changed because liberals in this country have changed. Now I'm
not talking about Asia. Asia is completely different culturally, and
Asia has been misinterpreted. But in this country, the mass
became popular among the left as a virtue signal against
Trump and a security blanket, that's what it was. And
(11:23):
once they become deeply invested in that, there's no going back,
deep emotional investment. And I'm a big believer, been huge believer,
And I assume we're gonna get to this with regard
to the Penn State case, which is a classic example
of this, when when if something is true, then you
must look at what you would expect to happen if
(11:45):
that was true. And here we have this unprecedented amount
of data for nineteen months. We've never done data like
this ever before. So if mass actually worked, there would
be O. J. Simpson level evidence of it by now
O J. Simpson. Instead, there's nothing, nothing, there's and and frankly,
(12:05):
here in southern California we have the best example of it.
If you chart the rate of spread in Los Angeles
County versus Orange County, which is are obviously butted against
each other sat climate, you know the same basic everything.
L A is a mass capital of the of the country.
Orange County currently has no mash mandate. No one's wearing
(12:27):
masks there. From the beginning, no one wore masks as
much in Orange County as they did in l A County,
caause Orange County is much less liberal. The chart is
identical except for one thing. The case right in Orange
County is always a little bit less than that of
Los Angeles County, but it could not be more identical,
(12:48):
which shows me that this whole thing, I actually believe
what we do has very little impact over the spread
of the virus. I think it's partially seasonal. I think
it's parsonal. Actually luck or bad luck. The whole notion
that we have have control over a virus is a fantasy. Uh,
it's the idea that man can control nature. And and frankly,
(13:13):
so much of this is as a result of liberal insanity.
And you know, I'm I'm not a Trump guy. I mean,
I'm a conservative, but I'm not a Trump guy. And
I just I just think so much of this was
in reaction to liberals losing their minds in an election
year when Donald Trump was was president well, and John
the thing too about the last year and a half,
the follow the science mantra which we hear so often
(13:37):
in and I learned when I was in school that
you know, there science is just people disagreeing. So it
has totally become politicized. And you know, on both sides,
people pick what they want and what they believe in,
and they you can it's like doctor shopping, right, John.
You find a scientist that will tell you what you
want and then you just go with it. Science has
(14:00):
become so politicized, and I find this to be a tragic,
and it's so it's really a weapon. Follow the science
is a weapon of the left. It's basically shut up. Uh,
you know, we we don't have the proof to back
up our side, so we're just gonna rely on well
all the scientists, say well, what what's the motivation of
all the scientists? And again there's a relationship to this
(14:23):
what happened at the Penn State when when all the
experts are saying one thing on a controversial topic, nobody
wants to go outside of that herd because if they
go outside of that herd on a big topic, we're
gonna get run over because there's an incentive of the
herd to not have anyone embarrassed them. And you know
this is a my My grandfather was a rather well
(14:45):
known rocket scientist for the United States. Came over from
Germany and Operation paper Clip, and his claim to fame
was actually with regard to our first satellite in space.
He told the Navy there was no gnass of the
time he was working for the Army. He told the
Navy that they were full the crap when it came
to the way they were going to try to power
our first satellite, and he fought like hell to put
(15:06):
these things called solar panels on and they laughed at him. Well,
within a few hours of our first satellite turned out
the Navy was wrong, he was right. And the rest
is history. I mean so unpopular positions throughout it, throughout
the history of science have always turned out that are
not always turned out, but often turned out to be
(15:26):
the right way to go. And group think is always
very dangerous and we have seen it here. And it's
not about science. It's about politics, pure politics, not just
the Democrat and Republican type of politics, but the politics
of people who are within the science community. No one
wants to lose their position in the cool kids table
(15:49):
at school, that's what this is about. Be sure to
catch live editions of The Ben Meller Show weekdays at
two am Eastern eleven pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio
and the Radio. Well and also, John, it seems like
you're on Twitter a lot, and I'm in their affair
amount It's like that has so much power now, and
you mentioned the group think, and you know, everyone wants
(16:11):
to be involved with the cool kids and all that,
but the the Twitter ROTI the wocaati that all get
together on on Twitter, and and the media companies. You've
been in the media business your your entire life. Here
the amount of power that the algorithms have on what
the news of the day is is insane and is
(16:32):
here's another one of those questions, John, where I look
at that and I've seen some of the studies about
how how few people actually provide content the Twitter based
on the amount of people you know, in America, for example,
here we talked about, you know, many people actually contribute.
There's a lot of people that are on there that
don't actually add to the conversation. But media companies, and
(16:53):
you know, I work for you one in particular, and
and the some other big ones, they just whatever Twitter
says that goal with it, like that's the gospel. Is
there any getting back from that? They've given so much power.
I couldn't agree with you more that Twitter has extraordinarily
outsized power in driving the narrative. And you know, especially
(17:14):
now that Trump has gone from Twitter, and I'm assuming
many of his supporters are too, It's it is unbelievable.
I mean, they have a stranglehold on the narrative of Twitter.
And you know, media members love Twitter. Why because it's
one of the few places well, frankly, all comes down
to this. On Twitter, especially woke media members can get
(17:38):
lots of affirmation and love at any moment. All they
have to do is tweet out some you know, some
PC bullcrap and they're gonna get thousands of bread tweets
and they will get affirmation and love. And that's what
they want. And on Twitter, the media because they're all
got blue check marks. I mean, how even I have
a blue checkmark? The the that's this is a place
(18:02):
where they are deemed to be important people and they
get respect and their opinion is deemed matter and so
this is why they love it, and therefore they publicize
it more and it becomes you know, the symbiotic relationship.
And I think you're exactly right that the number of
people that are actually driving this as a percentage of
the population is minuscule, which is why we see, you know,
(18:27):
the election results in Virginia last week be so completely
different than you know what the world the Twitter would
have indicated. Yeah, and I use the analogy, you know,
dealing with Twitter, mostly in the sports world, but just
in general, it's like the matrix. You don't know what's
real and what's not, and you know, you the algorithms,
(18:48):
the bots that are on there. It is a wild
world in that space. And yet again, the major media
companies love it. And as you said, the meat you
people like it too. Well. It's easy also, right, Uh.
As a reporter, if you needed to get feedback from
somebody for a story, a quote for a story, you'd
have to go out and chase people down. Now you
(19:09):
can just go on Twitter on your phone and get
comments from random people and put that in your story
and boom, you're done. Right, You're you're good to go.
You can wash your hands with it and move on
to the next one. So uh, yeah, I wanted to
move over that now I love documentaries, John, I am
obsessed with documentaries. I love that you're making documentaries. You
(19:30):
but this Penn State story, which you have been all
over and you talked about your past, But why this story?
You are known as the Pen Steak Guy. I was
talking to a friend of mine and I I said, I'm
gonna have John Zigler on the on the podcast. Oh
he's the Penn Steak guy. You're the Penn Steak Guy. John.
You've become that you've been all over this story for
ten years. Uh. While you know most other people have
(19:52):
moved on, you have stuck with it. You've got a
podcast that you've done, You've written a number of stories.
One of the reasons I wanted to have you on here,
and your latest alumn you wrote about your experience ten
years almost You have been all over the Penn State
story and you have a very unpopular opinion for a
lot of people that they don't want to hear what
you have to say about this because it goes against
(20:15):
everything that was reported ten years ago. But for those
that don't know, maybe the one or two people listening
that don't know the back store in this, John, explain
how you fell down this rabbit hole with Penn State.
It's crazy. Um, this is the most extraordinary experience of
my life and career. In many ways, it has been
(20:36):
the most interesting. It's also been the most excruciating. It's
been the best work of my career. But it's also
something that I wish I had never done. And I
think it tells a lot about the times in which
we live, which is why this story is way bigger
than just the Penn State scandal. Obviously, what people know
is that Jerry Zandowski was arrested on child sex abuse charges,
and then a few days later, ten years ago this week,
(20:58):
Joe Paterno was fired on a cell phone just before
his last home game to Stetory. Had become the winner's
coach and history of college football. The president university, Grand Spaniard,
was also fired. Two Pence State administrators were effectively also fired,
and they were charged. The three administrators ended up going
to jail for two months. Jerry Sandusky is still in
(21:18):
jail and almost certainly will die in jail. And I
have no connection Defense State. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia,
not really that close to State College, but I was
a Notre Dame fan growing up I went to Georgetown University,
but I know the news media better than anybody on
the planet, especially now. Even back in two thousand eleven,
I knew the news media very well, and I knew
(21:41):
that this was the case, that they were extraordinarily vulnerable,
especially under the perfect storm circumstances in the middle of
a moral panic of blowing. I also have an extraordinary
BS detector. And this story never made a damn bit
of sense, not from the Sandosky perspective. I did not
go into this thinking, all right, Jerry Sandusky must be innocent.
(22:01):
I'm gonna I'm gonna exonerate Jerry Sandusky. That was the
first thing from my mind. I was talking about the
Joe paternal angle on this. It made no sense and
it's a completely nonsensical story for anybody who understands sports.
I mean, I had coached high school football in two
different states, covered college and pro football at a very
high level. I know the culture of football, I know
(22:23):
the culture of Penn State that I frankly, just from
a human perspective, none of this story made any damn sense.
Now that doesn't mean it doesn't true. You know, j
doesn't make any sense that though j Simpson would kill
two people, but there's a ton of evidence though j
Simpson killed two people, ton of it, and there was
no evidence here that made any sense. And so I
(22:44):
started getting involved, and at first it was from the
perspective of Joe Paterno, and it was became very obvious,
very early that that the idea of that Joe paternal
participated in the cover up for Jerry Sonduski was absurd,
completely absurd, and even the prosecutor in the case eventually
told h e oh that he didn't believe that that happened. Uh,
And the media course ignored that because they already had
(23:04):
their narrative and Joe Paterno was dead at that point. Long,
long story short. I kept digging and digging and digging
because Joe Paterno on his deathbed said just find out
what the truth is, and nobody seemed to be interested
in what the truth of this was. And I wanted
to find a narrative that actually had some evidence behind
it and made some damn sense, And eventually I ended
up an interviewing Jayson Dusky in prison twice for a
(23:25):
total of six hours. I want on the Today Show
to do high profile interviews with Matt Lawer not once,
but twice, the second one with Doddie Sandusky back in,
and eventually I became completely, totally, one hundred percent convinced,
without a shred of doubt against my own self interest.
But not only was Joe Paterno innocent, not only were
(23:47):
the administrators innocent, but the only way to make this
story fit at all, that make the puzzle pieces of
this story fit was that Jerry Sandusky is also innocent.
And it's not even close. And we created a podcast
called With the Benefit of Hindsight, which is an epic
journey through the real story of what really happened here.
(24:08):
It's twenty one episode. Is It Ends? As we just
posted a couple of days ago with a four hour
exclusive interview with the former president of the Penn State,
Graham Spaniard. We have two of the administrators who went
to jail on the podcast, both of whom make it
very clear that they believe that Jerry Sandusky is in
fact innocent, which is shocking and should be national news.
(24:28):
But the news media doesn't work that way anymore. And
the evidence that we have accumulated both in breaking down
the convention wisdom of this case and telling you what
actually really did happen is extraordinary. It's it's it's I
mean people who have no connection to me, who have
fallen on on the podcast with the benefit of hindsight,
(24:50):
I'd say we've had hundreds and hundreds of people, not
thousands of contact me to say this is the greatest
podcast they've ever heard and they don't even really have
any connection to Penn State. Uh and uh and in
it extraordinary achievement, But it's not gonna do any good
because the news media as their narrative and once they're
this invested, they're never going back. They're never going back
because they put too many chips down on this one.
(25:12):
Then and and and um and I'm telling you it's
not close. I'm telling you, But Jo, what was the moment,
because you know a lot of people might be listening
to the same What are you doing Jerry Sanduski's you know,
he molested children, He's in jail for the rest of
his life. Here, what are you saying because you talked
to him, and yet what was the thing that led you?
(25:32):
Was there one thing in particular other than talking to
Jerry Sandusky and his wife that we let may be clear.
Let maybe it's a great question, because I'm gonna be clear.
I didn't talk to Jerry. Sanduski gets snowed. I'm just checking.
I'm just checking John. I just want there were there
were uh two hundred data points before I even talked
(25:54):
to Jerry, and then there and then after I talked
to Jerry the first time I didn't. I went out
of the prison that day saying, oh my god, please
don't let him be innocent. Please don't let him be innocent,
because I know this is going to ruin my life,
because I know myself well enough to know I'm not
going to be level able to let this go. Because
I'm the only one in the position to tell this story.
(26:17):
I don't want this. So I spent a year trying
to prove him guilty, Ben and I couldn't do it
because there's no damn evidence and everything he told me
checked out a thousand percent. And then I got deeper
and deeper and deeper, and it's not close. This this
story is absurd, and we you asked, Okay, what was
the moment. There's so many moments, But you know, Malcolm
(26:39):
Gladwell wrote a book called Talking to Strangers, the best seller.
He's a very famous author and Talking to Strangers best
seller book. There's a chapter, chapter five in there, which
basically deals with my work on this case, and glad
Well goes right up to the precipice of saying Sandusky
is innocent, but doesn't have the courage to do so.
I think he actually changed his mind of the publisher
(27:00):
changed there his mind at the last minute. But one
of the key pieces of information in that chapter is
maybe the biggest revelation that we have found, and there's
been there's so many of these it's hard to know
for sure. But for me, this whole story starts, and
this is the first episode of our podcast with the
benefit of hindsight. It all starts with the date of
the Mike mcquerie episode. You know, to me, you're you're
(27:24):
gonna make an allegation as Mike mcquery did that. I
you know, I witnessed Jerryson Dusky. He's actually assaulting a
young boy in a Penn State shower. The first thing
you want to know is, Okay, when did this happen?
The vast majority of people, even media members, ben don't
know that. When he testified for the first time, and
this was reported widely ten years ago. This week he
(27:47):
said that this happened on March one of two thousand
and two, and that's you know, that was the date
that Joe Paterno thought this happened when he died a
couple of months after the scandal. But then very qui
lightly and the media was very diligent about covering this up.
Just before Jerry Sinowski's trial, the prosecution had to announce, um, oops, um,
(28:10):
Mike got the date, the month, and the year wrong,
because now we have emails that prove when he went
to go see Joe Paterno, and so now we are surmising,
based upon those emails, does this actually happened in February
February ninth of the year before two thousand one, thirteen
months before what had been widely reported. When Paterno got fired,
(28:34):
Spaniard got fired, all firestorms started. And my my reaction was, Woa, woa,
woo woo woo woo, woa, We're gonna put all of
this on a story that's ten years old, where we
have no accuser at this point none. The media just
ignored that part of this and where the witness this
during incredibly dramatic event. He can't tell you the date,
(28:57):
the month, or the year in which had happened. And
then it gets better, And this is where I made
my biggest screw up of the entire case. I should
have been able to figure out that even that second
date was wrong very early on in my investigation. But
even I felt like, there's no possible way the prosecution
could get this so wrong twice, but they did. The
(29:21):
second date is a fabrication. Mike mcquerie did not witnessed
this event on February ninth of two thousand one, and
then go see Joe Paterno on the next morning. That's
not what happened. He saw this, or witness this whatever.
It was a shower with a boy, and that's a
whole different story who the boy was on December twenty nine,
(29:41):
two thousand. I've now proven that Malcolm Gladwell believes. I've
proven that Gary Schultz, the administrator, believes. I've proven that
Grand Span of the President believes. I've proven that Jerry
Sandusky believes. I've proven that because even he couldn't remember
what the date was, he just knew that the prosecution's
date was wrong. And the reason why that's so critical,
then is it? Now there's a six week gap, six
(30:02):
weeks in the time that this happens, and Mike mcquery
first reports it, not to the police but to Joe
Paternal in the morning in February ten, two thousand one.
And then here's the kicker. What happened on February uh
the day before he goes to see Joe paternal Sebury nine,
two thousand one. What what might have been the trigger
for why Mike McQuary goes to see Joe paternal Not
(30:24):
this six weeks old witnessing of Jerry in a shower
with a boy. No, the job that Mike mcquery wanted,
the wide receiver's coaching job opens up at Penn State
when Kenny Jackson leaves Penn State to go to the
Pittsburgh's Dealers. It's in the paper the morning of February ninth,
two thousand and then, Whailah, Just by coincidence, Mike McQuary
(30:48):
goes to see Joe Paterno on February tenth. That morning.
He's not going there to tell him, oh my god, Joe,
I saw Jerry Zudoski raping a boy last night. He's
going there to see what or not he can get
the Kenny Jackson job and the oh, by the way, coach,
I saw Jerry in a in a shower with a boy.
It made me uncomfortable. You might want to talk to
(31:09):
him about it. That was the afterthought of what happened,
and all the evidence supports that scenario. And when the
Mike mcquery episode disintegrates into not a rape of a boy,
but of Jerry Sandusky showering after a workout with a
thirteen year old he thought of as a son by
the name of Alan Myers, whose own testimony is very
(31:31):
clear that nothing bad ever happened between him and Jerry Zandusky,
then now all of a sudden, the pillar of the
case has just been disintegrated and the case falls apart
from there. And that's really the key element of this
or people to understand. Once you understand the Mike mcquery
episode was a fabrication, then you understand that the rest
(31:55):
of this case and in an incredible easy fashion and
a domino effect of of a perfect storm of panic
and injustice. All right, So then the question would be,
if that's the case, and you've been investigating this, why
would there not be some kind of opening up of
the case again and looking it over, because, as you said,
(32:15):
Jerry Sanduski is likely going to to die in in jail.
If if what you're saying is accurate and this is
all all checks out, why couldn't they go back and
open up Because that's not There's a couple of reasons. One,
that's not the way this system works. That's not the
way the legal system works. In order for Jerry Sandowski
(32:37):
to get a new trial, they have to prove a
constitutional issue with the due process of the first trial. Now,
in a irrational world, that would be incredibly easy. I
have to tell you, even if Jerry Sandowski was guilty,
even if he was guilty, his trial was such an
(32:57):
unbelievable joke that if it was not a famous case,
if there was not politics involved, a new trial would
have been a faded complete I mean, I've I've watched
a hundred date lines where people get new trials based
upon one one thousands of the due process issues that
were involved in Jerry Sandowski's trial. But here's where the
(33:18):
perfect storm comes in. In Pennsylvania, all the judges are elected,
and because of the politics of this case, because of
the media coverage of this case. Any judge that orders
a new trial for Jerry Sandowski is effectively ending their career,
and Jerry Sanowski's lawyer himself has been shocked time and
time again. People don't even understand Jerry is still appealing
(33:41):
on a regular basis that never happens in a serial
child molester case. You I would I defy anyone to
find me a serial child molester case with no pornography,
no confession, no plea bargain, and where the person who
end up getting convicted is still appealing vigorously with no money,
(34:02):
no political capital, ten years later. That never ever, ever,
ever happens. And the reason why it's happening in this
case is because you have an innocent man who has
no other choice. He's fighting for his life and he
doesn't understand because he's very naive that he that he
will never getting fair shake in Pennsylvania because of the
(34:24):
politics involved, because everyone is so deeply invested in this
fairy tale. That's why this cannot be reversed. I have
urged him, and other people close to him, including his lawyer,
have urged him to go to federal court. But if
he goes to federal court and he loses. His life
is over because now he has nothing to do, he
has nothing to focus on, he has no hope I have.
(34:46):
I've given this analogy to his family. I think it's
a good one. In state court, he can keep going
back and appealing basically every six months or a year.
So basically, for the rest of Jerry Sanduski's life, he
gets to run a fourth and seventy five play, you know,
every six months or a year. He's never gonna make
that fourth and seventy five, but he gets to keep trying.
(35:07):
If he goes to federal court, he gets one shot
at fourth and six, and if he misses the fourth
and six, his life is over. And he cannot handle
that from a psychological standpoint. So that's the answer to
your question. Be sure to catch live editions of The
Ben Miller Show weekdays at two a m. Eastern eleven
p m. Pacific. So, John, you've done the podcast talking
(35:27):
about this, You've covered it. What is next for you
on this st are you? Are you done with the
Penn State story and now has been ten years. Are
you going to continue to follow this or are you
just gonna move on to something else? What's the plan here, Well,
I still want people to listen to our podcast with
the benefit of hindsight. It's a remarkable historical document. You
don't even have to care about the Penn State case
(35:49):
to be interested in the podcast. It tells you so
much about the nature of our media, the nature of
our our system, the nature of humanity. By the way,
I've had a lot of people tell me this organical,
and I did this on purpose. I actually think you
can understand a lot about our reaction to COVID, as
I've already implied in this interview, by by listening to
this podcast. I mean, the parallels are remarkable, you know,
(36:12):
the the reaction to everything in a panic, the politics,
the propaganda, the emotional investment, the lack of evidence supporting
what we're doing. But there's no way to get out
of this, and there's so many comparisons, So I really
want people to check out with the benefit of hindsight.
I um fully acknowledge that that the ten year marked
(36:34):
for me psychologically. I was spen pointing as the time
when I I end this for me. Um you know,
there there are a couple of things that were supposed
to happen on the tenth anniversary that have been delayed.
ESPN is has been planning a special I have no
faith in them at all, but those who have been
interviewed for it say that it's far more pro paternal
(36:55):
than anything LS ESPN has ever done before. And there's
a mainstream news media, let a print outlet that's been
investigating this case or two years from what seems to
be a very pro Jerry Zandowski perspective. For some reason,
they have not hit the tenth anniversary. So unfortunately, those
are gonna still hang over my head, as you know,
some semblance of hope that theoretically something might change, even
(37:17):
though I have grave skepticism about that. But I have
to tell you my experience in this case, combined with
my experience with COVID, combined with having gone through the
Trump era, I'm now at the point where I don't
even know why I bothered to be part of the
public discourse, because we're now living in a world where
(37:38):
truth means nothing. In fact, when I ended the documentary
film I did about the Penn State case back at
two thousand twelve, called The Framing of Joe Paternal you
can find it for free at YouTube, I end the
documentary by saying, one of these we're gonna fight out
in this case is whether or not the truth still matters?
And uh, And here we are now nine years after that,
(37:58):
and at least we now know the truth does not matter.
The truth does not matter in today's world. And I'm
a truth guy. I am not a you know, give
you what you want to hear for to make me
popular guy. That's what sells in the media now, the
coin of the realm, and the media used to be
mostly truth. Now it's all popularity. It's all tell people
(38:21):
what they want to hear. And there's there's reasons why
that happened once. I'm happy to go into if you're interested,
But the reality is that's the case. And you know,
I don't know what I'm gonna do, but there's a
there's a reasonable chance that in the next few weeks
or whatever, a month, you may never hear from me again.
I may just go off the grid and just say
screw it, because it's just it's just not worth it
(38:44):
to me. I just don't have is This has never
been a money making endeavor for me. It's not about
making a living. And now you can't even tell the
truth in any platform or forum that that makes any
difference if it doesn't fit with what the corporate media wants. Well, yeah,
and John, I mean I just to follow that up.
(39:05):
I mean, the thing we deal with it a lot
in the sports world, but in politics it's even worse.
It's tribalism, right, It's like you gotta give the give
the red meat to the people that you know need
the red meat, and not you know, not give them
anything other than that. And you know, it's it's become
even worse over the last like five ten years, it's
gotten completely out of the media is now all about
(39:29):
finding a tribe that fits you know, who you are,
and then feeding that tribe what they want. That's what
this is, which is the exact opposite of what journalism
is supposed to be. And I don't believe journalism was
ever perfect, but it was a lot better than it
is now, that's for sure. Well, you mentioned you mentioned
John and your in your column that you wrote h
(39:52):
the latest column about the Penn State story, and I'm
sure you mentioned this on the on the the podcast
you did that the modern media, Uh, it's it's you
compared it to the movie industry, right, the way that
they handle things in media today. Can you expand on that?
And because I I think that was a thank you,
thank you for pointing that out, because I do think
(40:13):
it's true. You know, movies, and I know here we
are in Los Angeles and Pensiltown, the movies, even movies
that were about true stories, they used to at least
say based on a true story, right, and now the
dramatic license has gotten so ridiculous that basically it's just
(40:34):
based on theoretical stuff that might have been true, probably wasn't.
But you know what makes a great story. I mean
that that's that's the new standard in Hollywood for a
supposed non fiction movie. Well, the news media is following
that model. Is all now about narrative. What's the most
compelling narrative we can find? So so we're gonna cobble
(40:58):
together these fun means what seemed to be facts. We
don't even know if they're really facts, but they're you know,
fact ish, and we're gonna cobble these together, and we're
gonna get cocked the narrative that is most salacious and
best for us in that moment. And we've seen this
constantly and you know, I think again, I'm not a
(41:19):
trunk guy, but I think the media did that with
the Trump Russia investigation. I mean, all you know, basically
Trump was a Manchurian candidate, right because they cobbled together, um,
you know, some of these things that seemed to be facts.
And I think Trump actually did some things wrong with
reguard to to Russia, but he's clearly not a Manchurian candidate.
We've seen it in so many other situations. I mean,
(41:41):
this keeps happening, you know. I've often said that the
Penn State cases that commonents, Like if I was pitching
in as a movie, it's basically Faraknos meets Jesse small
Act meets man Ti Teo meets Duke Lacrosse. I mean,
I mean that's basically me what it is. Um And
(42:01):
it keeps happening because the media falls in love with narrative,
and then once they fall in love, there's no going
back because, as we've seen with COVID, nobody ever wants
to admit they were wrong. It's amazing. I mean, I'm
the only guy and I know that I admit I'm
wrong all the time. I frankly, as a married guy,
(42:23):
I thought that came a second nature. You admit you're
wrong constantly. I mean, but it's just amazing to me
that no one ever wants to admit that they were wrong.
We all got it wrong about Penn State, and it
created a massive injustice to destroy the lives of five
really good men, and an institution's reputation was destroyed forever,
and a lot of other people got hurt tangentially. But
(42:46):
this story is much bigger than that, because if it
can happen to them, it can happen to anybody. And
it shows us so much about what is wrong with
our culture. And frankly, I don't think it's gonna get
any better. I think it's only gonna get worse. It's
also it's also human nature, though, right, I mean, people,
you know basic marketing. I remember taking a marketing class
back in in college and they said, you gotta get
(43:08):
kids early. That's why the happy meal is so successful,
is because once somebody makes their mind up that something's
good or bad or right or wrong, they don't Nobody
wants to change their mind. But it is even worse
now than you know, at any other point I in
my life anyway, I don't know before that. But it's
and and there's a lot of reasons why it happened,
(43:29):
why it can't be fixed. But a large part of
this has to do with fragmentation of the news media.
Because we you know, back in the in the in
the era where we had four television stations and it
was a license to print money to own a newspaper
or radio station. No one needed to do this. You
didn't have to create the fictional movie. You could actually
(43:51):
run the real movie and it would make movie, It
would make money. You see where I'm going is you
didn't have to juice it. Now you have to juice
said because everyone is so desperate for every scrap of
ratings they can get, because the business model is broken.
That's the heart of a problem. And um, and you know,
(44:12):
Penn State really was the first major story that made
this abundantly clear. You know, I will now forever, based
upon what's happened this year, I will now refer to
Penn State as the first let's go Brandon story. I mean,
where where the news media it didn't matter. I mean,
(44:32):
I I truly believe, I truly believe that to this day.
A couple of the major accusers in this case could
come forward, They could do an interview saying we lied
for money. Jerry Zudoski never abused us, and the media
would report that they said, let's go Brandon. That's what
they would do. That's hilarious. Hey, John, listen, I love
(44:54):
you for doing this man, Thank you so much. You
are I love your enthusiasm, your passion as uh as
I told you earlier, but continued success. And how can
people follow you if they want to read your column
and you've obviously made a bunch of documentaries and whatnot,
and you're all over Twitter. Yeah, the best place to
find me is on Twitter. And my Twitter feed is
is a terrible handle. It's zigmn freud z e I
(45:17):
g m A n freud um. Or just look up
for John John Sigler z I E g l e
r uh and everything I do you can find there.
Although our our website for the With the Benefit of
Findsight podcast is www dot Framing Paterno dot com. You
can find all the raw interviews. We did dozens of
hours of raw interviews, but we that's how transparent we are.
(45:39):
We put out the raw unedited interviews we did for
this podcast at Framing Paterno dot com. Awesome. Thank you, John,
appreciate it. Thanks Man,
Host
Ben Maller
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