August 5, 2024 • 9 mins
On this episode of Our American Stories, Vietnam Veteran and best-selling author Karl Marlantes shares his story of war, memory, and loss.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
And we returned to our American stories. Up next, a
story from Carl Merlantis. Carl is a recipient of the
Navy Cross and the author of the best selling books
Matterhorn and What it Is Like to Go to War,
two books he wrote after his service in Vietnam, a
service he didn't talk about it until after undertaking the
(00:31):
process of putting pen to paper. Let's get into the story.
Here's Carl talking about what he did immediately after the war.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
First of all, I hid, I mean, I avoided talking
about it with anybody because I did have the feeling,
and I think it's shared by.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
A lot of veterans, not all veterans, but I.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Did have the feeling that people wouldn't understand, particularly the dark.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Side of things. There's a thrill to war.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
There's a thrill to crack cocaine too, and there's enormous,
enormous costs. I would never want to pay the cost
to get that thrill. But to deny the thrill is false.
How do you tell somebody who's you know, I don't know,
I you know, somebody that you're trying to date and
she's a college girl and you just you just come back.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I mean how do you talk about that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
You don't because you're just first of all, back in
the Vietnam era, you would be just you know, people
really were horrible to us, you know, like we were
really criminals, you know, So why would you even want
to open yourself up to that? So, I mean, I
just you know, I never told anybody it was in
the Marines Order.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
In Vietnam, just didn't. So that was one way of
handling it. It's not right.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Because you've got to talk about it for two reasons.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
One is for your own mental health. You got to
get these these ghosts out where you can see them.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
My friend Joe bobro calls it turning ghosts into ancestors.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
They're part of you, but if you don't deal with them,
they'll haunt you.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I mean, the reason that you're getting bar fights and
your marriage breaks up and you start doing too much.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Alcohol is is because you're being driven by a ghost
and you're not conscious of it. You've got to get
it out.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And one of the ways of getting it out I
did it by writing. But a classic way is just
talking to people, people who you trust, and that would
be like your spouse or your brother or your sister,
we didn't even do that. And the other side is
if you don't tell people what they're actually asking, you know,
nineteen year old kids to do for their country, they'll
(02:43):
ask them for really trivial both. I think half of
the military is from seven southern states. The people that
are fighting or you know, their mom and dad works
for Walmart.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
They're not partners in big city law firms.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
If you don't get these stories out, the people who
are making the big decisions, who and most of them
have never even been in the military, uh, will have
no idea what they're asking, and will continue to sacrifice our.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Kids for really trivial reasons. Anyway, I I just clammed up.
It's the wrong way of doing it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I use it in this analogy. Most men, I mean,
I would say really a vast vast majority of men
don't uh understand W and W Young women who have
not done it, done the experience, what it's like to
have a child, what is it like to go through childbirth.
If the women who have gone through childbirth feel that
they're somehow superior to the rest of us, that's a
(03:38):
horrible tragedy for the human race, and luckily for us,
the women don't do that, but they've been through an
experience that young women and men have no clue about
really other than what you read in stories or what
you hear people talk about. But if you listen to
you know, your mother or your sister or or y
you know in my age, your daughters talk about childbirth,
(04:01):
and they talk about it freely.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You get an idea. You'll never really understand it, but
you get an idea.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And if it wasn't for that, you would have no idea.
But I think that veterans, and I often tell you know,
combat veterans don't leave.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
That chip on your shoulder because it is true. I
don't think anybody can understand it unless they've done it.
I just think that's just the case. You can get close.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean good storytelling, good writing, you know, good poetry.
There's been some wonderful songs. They get close, but you'll
never get there. And you and I'll never understand really childbirth.
The only people that understand are once have've done it.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It's the same with combat.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
But th the key is that that can't put you
into a category where you think that you're better than
other people. You just have had a different experience from
other people. And that's a very important thing to understand.
Like I say, I I use the example of women
who've had babies. They're not superior to the women who haven't.
(05:02):
And I think that that's the right attitude, not superior, inferior,
just different. And the you won't ever, I don't think
you'll ever be able to bridge the gap, just that simple.
I had to deal with this bronze star I got
for pulling the kid from out from underneath the machine gun.
I wasn't written up for that, you know, you know,
(05:25):
did a heroic deed, brave deed in front of a
whole bunch of people, and so I got.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Written up for a medal. Uh, And I have that one.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It's on it's in the shadow box on the wall
in the living room.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I had to deal with it. I I wouldn't have
been able.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
To talk to you about that, and without having written
it first, because I the the feeling of I wonder
if I killed him.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I wonder if I killed.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Him, God, I could I don't know, I mean, it
would it.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It would haunt me at night. I'd wake up in
the middle of the night, go oh Jesus, did I
put that ball hole in it.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We'll never know cause the bodies were blown up. And uh,
I wish, I I wish i'd've you know, I known then,
I mean I I you know that I I'll I'll
never know. But having written it down and got it
got it out. I I remember, you know, literally bawling
and snot hitting the keyboard.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I mean, I was ball I wasn't crying. I was bawling,
you know, you know when you're bawling as.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
When you're running out of you know, both nostrils as
well as your eyes.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And uh, writing it down got it out, and I
could examine it and take responsibility for what I might've.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Done or didn't do. Uh.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And it was clearly uh easy, cause it after I
wrote it.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
First of all, I can talk about it without I
I mean, I think it it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Before I'd written about it, i'd i'd just start shaking,
literally start shaking it I I and would have to
shut up, couldn't carry on.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I don't have that problem. And I think that.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Having written it, the ghost is turned into an ancestor.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
It doesn't haunt me anymore. It's just part of my life.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So the writing was important for those reasons, and also
it was important for the other side of it, which
I said that people who haven't had the experience. I
wanted to tell our story, our story what nineteen year
old kids are trying to grow up and be marines
and be in combat all at the same time.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
And it wasn't easy.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And you know, unless our story gets told, no one
will know. That means this is kind of a funny story.
But a woman came up to me at a reading
and want me to you know, it was the line
to sign the books and signing books, and her turn
came up, and she was sort of and I'm really
embarrassed and sort of hemming and hauling on.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I don't know what to say I want to say.
I said, what's wrong? What do you want to talk about?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And I said go ahead, and she said, well, you know,
I was in college.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
During the Vietnam War and I just hated it. It
was wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I hated the war, and I was a protester.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
I protested every chance I could get. I protested.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And then I read Matterhorn and I didn't know you
guys slept outside.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I about fell out of my chair.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
But you see, there's a college educated woman college educated
and didn't know we slept outside in Vietnam. I'm going like,
there's a large, large gap between you know, the military
and the civilians, and that writing helps close it.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
And a terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling
by our own Monty Montgomery, and a special thanks to
call Or Lantes. And by writing these things down he
was able to turn ghosts into ancestors. But more importantly,
I think he was connecting warriors' lives with civilian lives,
just as Steven Ambrose did with saving Private Ryan, interviewing
(09:09):
all those men and women who put their lives at
risk in World War Two. Call Merlantis turning ghosts into
ancestors here on our American Stories.
And we returned to our American stories. Up next, a
story from Carl Merlantis. Carl is a recipient of the
Navy Cross and the author of the best selling books
Matterhorn and What it Is Like to Go to War,
two books he wrote after his service in Vietnam, a
service he didn't talk about it until after undertaking the
(00:31):
process of putting pen to paper. Let's get into the story.
Here's Carl talking about what he did immediately after the war.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
First of all, I hid, I mean, I avoided talking
about it with anybody because I did have the feeling,
and I think it's shared by.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
A lot of veterans, not all veterans, but I.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Did have the feeling that people wouldn't understand, particularly the dark.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Side of things. There's a thrill to war.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
There's a thrill to crack cocaine too, and there's enormous,
enormous costs. I would never want to pay the cost
to get that thrill. But to deny the thrill is false.
How do you tell somebody who's you know, I don't know,
I you know, somebody that you're trying to date and
she's a college girl and you just you just come back.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I mean how do you talk about that.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
You don't because you're just first of all, back in
the Vietnam era, you would be just you know, people
really were horrible to us, you know, like we were
really criminals, you know, So why would you even want
to open yourself up to that? So, I mean, I
just you know, I never told anybody it was in
the Marines Order.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
In Vietnam, just didn't. So that was one way of
handling it. It's not right.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Because you've got to talk about it for two reasons.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
One is for your own mental health. You got to
get these these ghosts out where you can see them.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
My friend Joe bobro calls it turning ghosts into ancestors.
Speaker 3 (02:05):
They're part of you, but if you don't deal with them,
they'll haunt you.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
I mean, the reason that you're getting bar fights and
your marriage breaks up and you start doing too much.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Alcohol is is because you're being driven by a ghost
and you're not conscious of it. You've got to get
it out.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And one of the ways of getting it out I
did it by writing. But a classic way is just
talking to people, people who you trust, and that would
be like your spouse or your brother or your sister,
we didn't even do that. And the other side is
if you don't tell people what they're actually asking, you know,
nineteen year old kids to do for their country, they'll
(02:43):
ask them for really trivial both. I think half of
the military is from seven southern states. The people that
are fighting or you know, their mom and dad works
for Walmart.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
They're not partners in big city law firms.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
If you don't get these stories out, the people who
are making the big decisions, who and most of them
have never even been in the military, uh, will have
no idea what they're asking, and will continue to sacrifice our.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Kids for really trivial reasons. Anyway, I I just clammed up.
It's the wrong way of doing it.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
I use it in this analogy. Most men, I mean,
I would say really a vast vast majority of men
don't uh understand W and W Young women who have
not done it, done the experience, what it's like to
have a child, what is it like to go through childbirth.
If the women who have gone through childbirth feel that
they're somehow superior to the rest of us, that's a
(03:38):
horrible tragedy for the human race, and luckily for us,
the women don't do that, but they've been through an
experience that young women and men have no clue about
really other than what you read in stories or what
you hear people talk about. But if you listen to
you know, your mother or your sister or or y
you know in my age, your daughters talk about childbirth,
(04:01):
and they talk about it freely.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
You get an idea. You'll never really understand it, but
you get an idea.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
And if it wasn't for that, you would have no idea.
But I think that veterans, and I often tell you know,
combat veterans don't leave.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
That chip on your shoulder because it is true. I
don't think anybody can understand it unless they've done it.
I just think that's just the case. You can get close.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
I mean good storytelling, good writing, you know, good poetry.
There's been some wonderful songs. They get close, but you'll
never get there. And you and I'll never understand really childbirth.
The only people that understand are once have've done it.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
It's the same with combat.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
But th the key is that that can't put you
into a category where you think that you're better than
other people. You just have had a different experience from
other people. And that's a very important thing to understand.
Like I say, I I use the example of women
who've had babies. They're not superior to the women who haven't.
(05:02):
And I think that that's the right attitude, not superior, inferior,
just different. And the you won't ever, I don't think
you'll ever be able to bridge the gap, just that simple.
I had to deal with this bronze star I got
for pulling the kid from out from underneath the machine gun.
I wasn't written up for that, you know, you know,
(05:25):
did a heroic deed, brave deed in front of a
whole bunch of people, and so I got.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
Written up for a medal. Uh, And I have that one.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
It's on it's in the shadow box on the wall
in the living room.
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I had to deal with it. I I wouldn't have
been able.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
To talk to you about that, and without having written
it first, because I the the feeling of I wonder
if I killed him.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I wonder if I killed.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Him, God, I could I don't know, I mean, it
would it.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
It would haunt me at night. I'd wake up in
the middle of the night, go oh Jesus, did I
put that ball hole in it.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
We'll never know cause the bodies were blown up. And uh,
I wish, I I wish i'd've you know, I known then,
I mean I I you know that I I'll I'll
never know. But having written it down and got it
got it out. I I remember, you know, literally bawling
and snot hitting the keyboard.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
I mean, I was ball I wasn't crying. I was bawling,
you know, you know when you're bawling as.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
When you're running out of you know, both nostrils as
well as your eyes.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
And uh, writing it down got it out, and I
could examine it and take responsibility for what I might've.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Done or didn't do. Uh.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And it was clearly uh easy, cause it after I
wrote it.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
First of all, I can talk about it without I
I mean, I think it it.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Before I'd written about it, i'd i'd just start shaking,
literally start shaking it I I and would have to
shut up, couldn't carry on.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I don't have that problem. And I think that.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Having written it, the ghost is turned into an ancestor.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
It doesn't haunt me anymore. It's just part of my life.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
So the writing was important for those reasons, and also
it was important for the other side of it, which
I said that people who haven't had the experience. I
wanted to tell our story, our story what nineteen year
old kids are trying to grow up and be marines
and be in combat all at the same time.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
And it wasn't easy.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
And you know, unless our story gets told, no one
will know. That means this is kind of a funny story.
But a woman came up to me at a reading
and want me to you know, it was the line
to sign the books and signing books, and her turn
came up, and she was sort of and I'm really
embarrassed and sort of hemming and hauling on.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
I don't know what to say I want to say.
I said, what's wrong? What do you want to talk about?
Speaker 2 (08:03):
And I said go ahead, and she said, well, you know,
I was in college.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
During the Vietnam War and I just hated it. It
was wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I hated the war, and I was a protester.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
I protested every chance I could get. I protested.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
And then I read Matterhorn and I didn't know you
guys slept outside.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I about fell out of my chair.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
But you see, there's a college educated woman college educated
and didn't know we slept outside in Vietnam. I'm going like,
there's a large, large gap between you know, the military
and the civilians, and that writing helps close it.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
And a terrific job on the production, editing and storytelling
by our own Monty Montgomery, and a special thanks to
call Or Lantes. And by writing these things down he
was able to turn ghosts into ancestors. But more importantly,
I think he was connecting warriors' lives with civilian lives,
just as Steven Ambrose did with saving Private Ryan, interviewing
(09:09):
all those men and women who put their lives at
risk in World War Two. Call Merlantis turning ghosts into
ancestors here on our American Stories.
Host
Lee Habeeb
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