February 14, 2025 • 30 mins
"Does the status of your mental health impact your closest relationships OR do your closest relationships impact your mental health? It could drive you crazy!" www.nfnlp.com
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Sylvia Moss. This is in Sight, a presentation
of iHeartMedia where we really do care about our local
communities and all our listeners who live here. Here's something
to think about. Does the status of your mental health
have an impact on your relationships or do your relationships
impact your mental health. I've been thinking about that one
(00:22):
for a while. With mental health actually being at the
top of the list of your concerns, thought we'd take
a closer look at this question and further examine some
of the most personal relationships they have out there, those
with a spouse or even a life partner. I can
tell you that this is the first time in twenty
years that divorce rates have been falling. Wondering if it's
(00:45):
because more people have chosen to live together, and maybe
it's that younger generation. Maybe they know that I don't
know something to it because they've chosen to wait till
they're thirty and forty years old to tie the knot.
Today's guests can answer all these questions about mental health,
then relationships, and I'm hoping she's gonna be willing to
(01:05):
give us some insight into our best chances of finding
that one thing we all seem to want a happy, healthy,
and lasting relationship with This is the wonderful Michelle Willard Hoffer.
She is a mindful cognitive behavioral instructor, a stress management consultant,
and a therapeutic hypnotist. She has been a teacher, and
she's also a successful author of the book called The
(01:27):
ABC's of Narcissism. Let me say that again, Narcissism soaring
past talk to taxic partners. Michelle, you're the narcissist slayer, right,
I had you on here before. We're going to talk
about that a little bit later. But I wanted at
the top of the question a program. I was thinking
about that question, am I Is there something wrong with
(01:49):
me if I can't get along with my spouse? Or
is it the other way around? Let me repeat that.
Does the status of my mental health have an impact
on my relationship or does my relationship impact my mental health?
Or maybe it's just a cycle.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I'll say this what most people have mental health.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Issues issues one way or the other.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I agree, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So you know you, you, they, we us, everyone everyone
on the planet is bringing something positive something negative to
a relationship. How you reveal and share that information and
(02:36):
that you are handling it is what's really important, not
that you have this problem you don't know what to
do about it, and you're looking for a hero. Because
you you need to go into a relationship knowing who
you are, knowing your strengths and weaknesses and how you
(02:58):
are handling them. You also need to know how that
person is handling their strengths and their weaknesses, their areas
for improvement.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Okay, here's a quick true or false. We all take
in their most personal relationships ships. By that, I mean
one with a partner or spouse, negative positive character traits
that we learned from our mothers and fathers. True. True,
But isn't the thing is to recognize them because I've
(03:30):
known people have seen them. They're just like their parents were. Yes,
And then I see people that they did not their
prinsdn't get along, and they thought, I'm not living by them.
I'm not doing anything like them, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Still that's still reacting off their parents. Well, there there's
a story. There's a story about a father and two sons,
identical twins, who had They were taken away because the
father was abusive, he was an alcoholic, and one son
(04:08):
had to go live with family A. One son had
to go live with family B. And they didn't really
know each other. Then in adulthood they found.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Each other again.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, the one was an alcoholic and the one and
abusive and all this, and the other was pulled together.
It got good grades in school, really figured out his life.
And the one son said, well, Dad was like this,
of course I have to. It's just that's how it is.
(04:40):
And the other one had the mindset, well Dad was
like that, of course I'm going to change because I
don't want to be like that.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So we had only go to prove that it's not.
I guess you have a better chance of being out
physiologically an alcoholic. But the biggest influence on you is
environment like what you see them actually do. Because your
parents are mentors.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Absolutely, they are your first mentors, your first mentors, your
only mentors for the first seven years of life.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
So you choose as.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
A little little being, you're choosing making decisions like that
doesn't seem right, but they're doing it. Yeah, you know,
and that's how you start shaping your personality.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Okay, we talked about this one before we start the program.
Do women subconsciously look for their daddy when they're picking partner,
and do men look for their mother?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It depends if a woman. We'll start with the woman.
If a woman was in a healthy family, or feels
as though she was in a healthy family, she's going
to look for her dad, the man you know, who
loved her most, the person who loved her most. And
(06:06):
if that person doesn't feel as though she was in
a healthy relationship with her parents or her mother or father,
she's going to look for the partner who she can
fix that past relationship, the one with her parents, that
(06:28):
past relationship. So she's feeling unhealed, wounded, and she's carrying
that and still trying to fix it with her partner.
And that could be a man or woman her partner.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
But oh, that's interesting. Is what about guys?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Sort of the same, sort of the same men? Males
have a little different twist because because men and women
are different, Males will look for the nurse. Of course,
they will look for the being nurtured maybe well yes,
nurtured at praised, given the right amount of challenges, but
(07:12):
nothing too hard for their development.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
But what happens to boys who don't get that from
their mind?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
They keep trying. They keep trying to be chosen. That
is one of the things about childhood is being chosen,
feeling chosen for men and women, both both. So everyone
wants to feel chosen. If you're not chosen as a
(07:38):
child from neglect, from abuse, or you from a big family,
and you just don't feel chosen, that follows you.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And how does it manifest this?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
You look for you look for someone who is going
to choose you, good or bad, and you will that
person will glob on to the first person.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
That appears to have chosen them.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And it's not about being chosen, it's about entering. Men
and women want to enter a relationship with someone that
is compatible with them with kindness, empathy, showing up, compassion, honesty,
trustworthy communication, showing up as a teammate, showing up someone
(08:30):
who's going to support them, showing up that cares about them,
cares about their day, shows up. Not that they feel chosen,
because feeling chosen is a trick and a tactic. It
puts you in a lower role and that person who
chose you in a higher role.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Oh boy, oh boy, I'm learning a lot here. Here's
something I've always told I told my son that I've
told friends' kids when they asked me about stuff. When
you're dating, start dating somebody, you get to meet their parents,
you've been with them a little while, and you should
see how their mother and father treat each other, because
(09:12):
that's what the child is going. That's what this girl's
gonna want from you, right or this guy? Is that true?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It is partially true. Yes, absolutely, Seeing how the parents
work together or not. I mean they could be divorced
or just not living together. But how this adult is
interacting with other adults is key because that, again, was
(09:43):
their first role model, whether it's their mother or father,
that's their first role model, and that's in their unconscious mind. Wow,
they can work through it. It's still in there.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Well, we were talking about character traits. Okay, there are
certain red flags. I don't care if it's a man
or a woman. There are women out there who are
her abusive and I know you'll agree with me about that,
but we hear more about the women. What are some
of the red flags? Like, how do you know? I
know control is huge that can lead to abuse and
(10:18):
even death at times. What are some of the major
things that you should be looking for in a partner,
and how will they manifest Like, if somebody's controlling you,
how will they control you? Give me some examples.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, one of the things, and it's intermittent, which is
really clever, because intermittent reinforcement of the positive and the negative.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's tricky.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
It is, it's it's like Pavlovs dog.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Pavlovs dog got the treat sometimes and then kept looking
for it, kept looking for it, kept looking for it,
kept looking for the good thing. So a toxic person
will give you the goods sometimes. Oh I saw the
good in him, I saw good in her.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I know it's and that's why I don't want to
leave them, even though he gave me a black eyeway.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, but I know there's good in there. No, No,
that's the fake, that's the trick. The real one is
the one who gave you the black eye or screamed
at you or withheld affection or gave you the silent treatment.
And that's the real one. So some red flags are,
as you said, control, poor communication, not letting you know
(11:27):
pieces that you need to know for your day or
your evening or your weekend. Another one is they are
always the victim, always the victim. Even if they're highly successful,
they are still blaming someone else. They are taking no accountability.
That's not a strength, that's a weakness.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Okay that.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
A strong person mentally, a strong person takes accountability, owns it,
and works on improving it. Uses the words oh, I'm
really sorry about that, apologizes, apologizes.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What about everybody thinks they're they're good communicators? What have
you found in what in your practice? I would think
that's huge that you should be with somebody who's good communicator.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
That communication is one of the mutual respect keys, mutual
respect tenants. Communication is so important and not everybody thinks
they are a good communicator. A toxic person will say
(12:47):
I'm not good at communicating.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
They will let you know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And then of course when you talk about communication, they
will shift it. They will project it onto you, back
to you, deflect, spin it, gaslight you say you're not
a good communicator, even though it is they who are
not the good communicator.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So communication is huge.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
No, what else? Respect? That is huge? I think that
is huge.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Authentic respect. Authentic respect respect comes in the form again
of being trustworthy, showing someone that you care about them,
asking about their day, that you support them through the ugly,
the challenges, the sad that goes along with the commitment
(13:42):
that does the compassion. Not that they are such a
good provider. They look the best in that bathing suit.
That's that is so superficial. And you had mentioned about
people who are in their thirties and forties.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, I want to I wanted to talk about that
then too.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, so I'm sorry about jumping out.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
But they, I will say, they are more knowledgeable in
knowing that it's not the package, it's not the Instagram,
it's not the wrapping of a person. It is actually deeper.
They are learning that on their own. A big part
(14:29):
of them they are there's still a big part that
is the Instagram. Ready TikTok. Ready superficial because during COVID
it's swung that way.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
But well, do you think it's that or do you
think I know my generation. If you're twenty two three,
you weren't married, you're an old maid, you know, And
we a lot of us during that time stayed home
and raise our children, so we were financially de on
someone else. That's a perfect situation for abuse. That is
that is but these younger people, women are doing they're
(15:08):
out there, they're help there are it's for most even
if they don't get couples don't get along. There's typically
a man and a woman who are both bringing in
some sort of income. So women aren't dependent on this,
and a lot of them don't. Well, let me ask you,
do you still see a lot of women, even though
they're in these situations where they're contributing financially, still are
victims of abuse.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Oh my gosh, yes, yes, I do that.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I mean, I just I can understand somebody makes you
feel bad when they're holding because a lot of women,
you know this, A lot of women with children stay
in abusive relationships because they're so beaten down and the
first thing at the top of their mind is their kids.
At Least the kids are fit, at least the kids
are warm. That's what we always do. But it surprises
(15:53):
me that younger, younger women would stay in those relationships
if they're contributing.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
They men and women do they do because it is
it's both. You would be surprised women are staying in
these types of relationships out of fear. Men are staying
in abusive relationships out of the duty, out of fear
(16:18):
for their children, so sad it is.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Well, how do you know, I know there's something called well,
here's two parts of this thing. Women. As you said earlier,
we're looking to fix the last relationship through the next relationship.
We always think if we love them enough, he'll change.
What a crock? That is? Right?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Well, people, if I love them enough to change, or
some women and men, some men to want to be rescued.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, it's either.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm still trying to fix myself or I need to
be rescued. No, no, none of us needed to be rescued. Also,
none of us need to fix someone else. Really, we
need to understand.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Who we are, who we are.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
A lot of times people are afraid to figure that out.
That's the thing of it.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
In a comfortable hell, rather than taking a chance on
a what they see is being uncomfortable heaven to get
there right right.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And as you spoke about how the keys to Heaven,
the keys to the kingdom is awareness, awareness of who
you are.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And I'm so glad you brought that up because that's
my next question. Okay, here you go. You're in a relationship. Well,
first of all, how do you know if it's addiction
that you're addicted to this relationship, this constantly repeating itself
back and forth. Or if you love somebody, what is love? Love? Well,
(18:01):
it's a combination of all those things.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's a combination of the positive things that we've talked about.
I mean, you can a young love, you know, our
high school love we're looking at just like oh this
boy is not allowed to me, or this girl she's
so pretty. But adult love, adult love really is meeting
of the minds and emotional intelligence. So when someone says,
(18:27):
and this is just one offul a little bit, when
someone says, what wasn't a sexual affair, it was an
emotional one? Oh oh oh no. Because first of all,
if you're having sex and emotions and it's all an affair,
the word affair is attached to it, you're cheating, period.
(18:48):
But love is with the emotions. Emotionally intelligent is being
in a relationship of mutual respect, respect, respect, respect for
yourself and that person, understanding, oh that he she respects themselves.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And that you respect your partner too.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You have to respect your partner, they have to respect you.
You have to respect yourself awareness, awareness and not covering
up their red flags. Because trust and believe they have them, and.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
So do you.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You know, making excuses for another person never ever works
out well in the end.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You remember that book Manner from Mars, Women from Venus. Yes,
that was pretty much like leave them alone. When he's upset,
he goes to his cave. And that's just the part
of it. What do you think about things like that?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Oh, if someone's treating you bad, definitely leave them alone
and keep going.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Men in general, it's like, we get into argument and
then let them cool down. And and how women are
we want to fix now? We don't want to wait.
And he's like, he'll go to a bar with his
buddies or something, and they don't Guys don't talk I mean,
they don't talk about women. They don't even talk to women.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Right, But that.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
It made a lot of sense to me at one time.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Right, And that's the beauty of emotional intelligence and the
beauty of being evolved. You're open to hearing new ideas,
new theories because at one time that did make sense
for a lot of people, and now we know that
it no longer does. So okay, let's let's move forward
(20:44):
into now the emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
But the society dictate where we are in our relationships.
It it has to. I mean La Clow said years ago,
your mother stayed home.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Right back, I mean society does the tribe. The tribe
dictates it. And when I say tribe, I'm going all
the way back to Caveman times, the tribe. That's the
most ancient part of your brain is being part of
(21:20):
a tribe. And if you are kicked out of the tribe,
you will cease to exist. Because a person from Caveman
time could not exist by themselves. They could not It
was just impossible. You were attacked by a monster.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Or yeah, tiger or whatever.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
But as a tribe together, you are more successful in
having food, heat relationships. Well we'll keep it PG relationships.
But when you're off on your own and you've been kicked, ostracized,
out it from the tribe.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
You cease to exist.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
People always want connection, So if you feel chosen, then
you think you have a connection. It's a false connection.
But people are looking for connection.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Oh yeah, that's the number one thing, and they're looking
for somebody who can ease the pain and that they
haven't dealt with yet, and they should have dealt with
before they got into the next relationship. Okay, let's talk
about it. I mean, it's always the other person. The
other person. Yeah, how important it is to know yourself
(22:37):
and what you expect. Like, my father was successful, I'm
going to want a guy that is successful, right.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I will say that is a piece of it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
More so though my father was successful, I'm going to
be successful. Ah my partner, Hey, I want my partner
to have the emotional intelligence and yeah, my partner's successful
great or my partner is an up and comer. Super,
my partner's trying really hard. Yes, as long as there's movement, movement,
(23:18):
movement in the right way, and that depends on what
stage of life you're at.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
All, that's true. That's true. Well, you know, I always
thought about these couples that were fixed up by their
parents in like Japan. I used to think that's awful,
you don't even love somebody. But then I started thinking,
they have so much in common. Chances are they're going
to get What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Well, I think that that is also.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
From another culture.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
It works for them because they have different mindset, a
different approach. And that's not my answer.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
History.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
However, in looking at it and studying it, it started
out as sort of a bartering thing, you know, my
my son, my daughter for this, for that, for a
place in study. Yeah, for money, for riches and wealth.
So it was a boring thing. Now it's turned into
(24:21):
something else. However, that's where it started historically, and it's
a totally different culture than what I was raised in.
But it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Just like our ways,
are you know, ways from our.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Ways? That works sometimes they.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Don't, you know it just well that's why you know,
I'm I think these kids who don't get married till
they're thirty forty years old, I think they have it
right because first of all, what the heck do you
know at twenty years old?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And thinking what if you get married to somebody you
want to have children and they don't want to have children,
or religious things are an issue, So are we better
off looking for someone? There's got to be that attraction though.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Too, of course there is. There is the attraction. Now
is it physical? Is it emotional? It's not you know
a little of both, but more so the emotional because
you can have a physical attraction the person's and.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I can't carry a conversation with them.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So what would you what would your advice be to
anybody out there whether you can fix it. You can
fix it. First is not to blame the other person,
right is, if you're in a relationship, even if they
don't want to talk about it, you get yourself fixed.
And I would think that's empowering.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Fixing yourself is hugely empowering. My lot of people come
to me with that whole you know, do I've had
this happen, and this happen, and this happened, and this happened,
and isn't me? And I know they don't want me
to say yes, But guess what I do tell them
because that's who I am. I want them to get
(26:13):
healed and better. So I'm going to make them aware
real fast. Yes, yes, yes it's you, and not in
a negative way, but in a fun way, so that
they have the awareness. You know, people pleasing is bad.
People pleasing is.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Not pleasing at all.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
People pleasing is detrimental. It steals your soul never never
end never never. And the people when you finally become
aware that, oh I've been people pleasing, that's why I'm
so unhappy. That's why I can't get out from under
these patterns of negativity and patterns of bad relationships, either
(26:49):
with friends, with coworkers, with someone you're romantically involved with.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
It's you know, right, people pleasing.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Will steal yourself. And so when you realize that, you
acknowledge it, and you're like, I'm changing it, and you
start to change it, you start to change it, the
hell that rains down on your head because you are
no longer being controlled anymore. You are no longer being
the rescuer, the healer for someone who doesn't want to
(27:21):
put in the work for the work, a voider. They
get mad at you. They're not happy for you, they
are not happy that you have this new awareness.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I wouldn't tell people to tell anybody like, oh, I've
been a people pleaser. I'm going to stop doing that.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
No, just stop, just stop, because they're still going to
be the person is still out there that's going to
try to control them. Well, I depend on you. You're the
only one that can do this.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
That's not true. That's not true.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So they will use manipulative tactics to try and make
someone go back into people pleasing, which is why boundaries
are so important.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Boundaries, But boundaries.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
But you know what, all this stuff we're talking about it,
so it's common sense. But when emotion and addiction, I'm
not necessarily talking about drugs or alcohol. You can become
a drink addicted in a relationship to that person. At
what point you say stop stop, I need to get
out of here.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
That's different for every person. When it finally comes around
to the stop stop, I have to get out of here,
then you get out. Then you just go it's time.
There's no no more time.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
It's over.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
And you know, with a lot of resources out there
for even women in abusive relationships, you know how you
have to plan and get out and not there. But
if you're waiting for things to change, let me say
this to anybody out there. If you're listening to this
program and you're forty years old and you're miserable, but
you love them and blah blah blah blah, are you
(28:58):
going to be singing the same song at fifty think
about that. Michelle, this has been awesome. You're gonna have
to come back. My guest again is with the per book.
I want to talk about a book with the abcs
of narciss systems soaring past toxic relationships. This has been awesome.
Michelle Willard Hoffer please come in again. Have you Valentine's Day?
(29:21):
By the way, this show airs. But how does somebody
get in touch with you?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Well, they can email me at Michelle m I C
H K L L E two ls at Soaringminds, dot.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Me me and you can always get in touch with
me here at the station. I'll pass the information on it. Also,
don't forget you can catch Inside every weekend on each
of our ten iHeart stations are Anytime I'm your favorite
podcast that I'm Sylvia Moss. This has been insight Thanks
so much for listening. To see you next week.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
M
Hi, I'm Sylvia Moss. This is in Sight, a presentation
of iHeartMedia where we really do care about our local
communities and all our listeners who live here. Here's something
to think about. Does the status of your mental health
have an impact on your relationships or do your relationships
impact your mental health. I've been thinking about that one
(00:22):
for a while. With mental health actually being at the
top of the list of your concerns, thought we'd take
a closer look at this question and further examine some
of the most personal relationships they have out there, those
with a spouse or even a life partner. I can
tell you that this is the first time in twenty
years that divorce rates have been falling. Wondering if it's
(00:45):
because more people have chosen to live together, and maybe
it's that younger generation. Maybe they know that I don't
know something to it because they've chosen to wait till
they're thirty and forty years old to tie the knot.
Today's guests can answer all these questions about mental health,
then relationships, and I'm hoping she's gonna be willing to
(01:05):
give us some insight into our best chances of finding
that one thing we all seem to want a happy, healthy,
and lasting relationship with This is the wonderful Michelle Willard Hoffer.
She is a mindful cognitive behavioral instructor, a stress management consultant,
and a therapeutic hypnotist. She has been a teacher, and
she's also a successful author of the book called The
(01:27):
ABC's of Narcissism. Let me say that again, Narcissism soaring
past talk to taxic partners. Michelle, you're the narcissist slayer, right,
I had you on here before. We're going to talk
about that a little bit later. But I wanted at
the top of the question a program. I was thinking
about that question, am I Is there something wrong with
(01:49):
me if I can't get along with my spouse? Or
is it the other way around? Let me repeat that.
Does the status of my mental health have an impact
on my relationship or does my relationship impact my mental health?
Or maybe it's just a cycle.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Well, I'll say this what most people have mental health.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Issues issues one way or the other.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
I agree, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
So you know you, you, they, we us, everyone everyone
on the planet is bringing something positive something negative to
a relationship. How you reveal and share that information and
(02:36):
that you are handling it is what's really important, not
that you have this problem you don't know what to
do about it, and you're looking for a hero. Because
you you need to go into a relationship knowing who
you are, knowing your strengths and weaknesses and how you
(02:58):
are handling them. You also need to know how that
person is handling their strengths and their weaknesses, their areas
for improvement.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Okay, here's a quick true or false. We all take
in their most personal relationships ships. By that, I mean
one with a partner or spouse, negative positive character traits
that we learned from our mothers and fathers. True. True,
But isn't the thing is to recognize them because I've
(03:30):
known people have seen them. They're just like their parents were. Yes,
And then I see people that they did not their
prinsdn't get along, and they thought, I'm not living by them.
I'm not doing anything like them, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Still that's still reacting off their parents. Well, there there's
a story. There's a story about a father and two sons,
identical twins, who had They were taken away because the
father was abusive, he was an alcoholic, and one son
(04:08):
had to go live with family A. One son had
to go live with family B. And they didn't really
know each other. Then in adulthood they found.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Each other again.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, the one was an alcoholic and the one and
abusive and all this, and the other was pulled together.
It got good grades in school, really figured out his life.
And the one son said, well, Dad was like this,
of course I have to. It's just that's how it is.
(04:40):
And the other one had the mindset, well Dad was
like that, of course I'm going to change because I
don't want to be like that.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
So we had only go to prove that it's not.
I guess you have a better chance of being out
physiologically an alcoholic. But the biggest influence on you is
environment like what you see them actually do. Because your
parents are mentors.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
Absolutely, they are your first mentors, your first mentors, your
only mentors for the first seven years of life.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
So you choose as.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
A little little being, you're choosing making decisions like that
doesn't seem right, but they're doing it. Yeah, you know,
and that's how you start shaping your personality.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Okay, we talked about this one before we start the program.
Do women subconsciously look for their daddy when they're picking partner,
and do men look for their mother?
Speaker 2 (05:40):
It depends if a woman. We'll start with the woman.
If a woman was in a healthy family, or feels
as though she was in a healthy family, she's going
to look for her dad, the man you know, who
loved her most, the person who loved her most. And
(06:06):
if that person doesn't feel as though she was in
a healthy relationship with her parents or her mother or father,
she's going to look for the partner who she can
fix that past relationship, the one with her parents, that
(06:28):
past relationship. So she's feeling unhealed, wounded, and she's carrying
that and still trying to fix it with her partner.
And that could be a man or woman her partner.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
But oh, that's interesting. Is what about guys?
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Sort of the same, sort of the same men? Males
have a little different twist because because men and women
are different, Males will look for the nurse. Of course,
they will look for the being nurtured maybe well yes,
nurtured at praised, given the right amount of challenges, but
(07:12):
nothing too hard for their development.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
But what happens to boys who don't get that from
their mind?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
They keep trying. They keep trying to be chosen. That
is one of the things about childhood is being chosen,
feeling chosen for men and women, both both. So everyone
wants to feel chosen. If you're not chosen as a
(07:38):
child from neglect, from abuse, or you from a big family,
and you just don't feel chosen, that follows you.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
And how does it manifest this?
Speaker 2 (07:51):
You look for you look for someone who is going
to choose you, good or bad, and you will that
person will glob on to the first person.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
That appears to have chosen them.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Oh boy.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
And it's not about being chosen, it's about entering. Men
and women want to enter a relationship with someone that
is compatible with them with kindness, empathy, showing up, compassion, honesty,
trustworthy communication, showing up as a teammate, showing up someone
(08:30):
who's going to support them, showing up that cares about them,
cares about their day, shows up. Not that they feel chosen,
because feeling chosen is a trick and a tactic. It
puts you in a lower role and that person who
chose you in a higher role.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
Oh boy, oh boy, I'm learning a lot here. Here's
something I've always told I told my son that I've
told friends' kids when they asked me about stuff. When
you're dating, start dating somebody, you get to meet their parents,
you've been with them a little while, and you should
see how their mother and father treat each other, because
(09:12):
that's what the child is going. That's what this girl's
gonna want from you, right or this guy? Is that true?
Speaker 2 (09:19):
It is partially true. Yes, absolutely, Seeing how the parents
work together or not. I mean they could be divorced
or just not living together. But how this adult is
interacting with other adults is key because that, again, was
(09:43):
their first role model, whether it's their mother or father,
that's their first role model, and that's in their unconscious mind. Wow,
they can work through it. It's still in there.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Well, we were talking about character traits. Okay, there are
certain red flags. I don't care if it's a man
or a woman. There are women out there who are
her abusive and I know you'll agree with me about that,
but we hear more about the women. What are some
of the red flags? Like, how do you know? I
know control is huge that can lead to abuse and
(10:18):
even death at times. What are some of the major
things that you should be looking for in a partner,
and how will they manifest Like, if somebody's controlling you,
how will they control you? Give me some examples.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Well, one of the things, and it's intermittent, which is
really clever, because intermittent reinforcement of the positive and the negative.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
That's tricky.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
It is, it's it's like Pavlovs dog.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Pavlovs dog got the treat sometimes and then kept looking
for it, kept looking for it, kept looking for it,
kept looking for the good thing. So a toxic person
will give you the goods sometimes. Oh I saw the
good in him, I saw good in her.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
I know it's and that's why I don't want to
leave them, even though he gave me a black eyeway.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Yeah, but I know there's good in there. No, No,
that's the fake, that's the trick. The real one is
the one who gave you the black eye or screamed
at you or withheld affection or gave you the silent treatment.
And that's the real one. So some red flags are,
as you said, control, poor communication, not letting you know
(11:27):
pieces that you need to know for your day or
your evening or your weekend. Another one is they are
always the victim, always the victim. Even if they're highly successful,
they are still blaming someone else. They are taking no accountability.
That's not a strength, that's a weakness.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Okay that.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
A strong person mentally, a strong person takes accountability, owns it,
and works on improving it. Uses the words oh, I'm
really sorry about that, apologizes, apologizes.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
What about everybody thinks they're they're good communicators? What have
you found in what in your practice? I would think
that's huge that you should be with somebody who's good communicator.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
That communication is one of the mutual respect keys, mutual
respect tenants. Communication is so important and not everybody thinks
they are a good communicator. A toxic person will say
(12:47):
I'm not good at communicating.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
They will let you know.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And then of course when you talk about communication, they
will shift it. They will project it onto you, back
to you, deflect, spin it, gaslight you say you're not
a good communicator, even though it is they who are
not the good communicator.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
So communication is huge.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
No, what else? Respect? That is huge? I think that
is huge.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Authentic respect. Authentic respect respect comes in the form again
of being trustworthy, showing someone that you care about them,
asking about their day, that you support them through the ugly,
the challenges, the sad that goes along with the commitment
(13:42):
that does the compassion. Not that they are such a
good provider. They look the best in that bathing suit.
That's that is so superficial. And you had mentioned about
people who are in their thirties and forties.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Yeah, I want to I wanted to talk about that
then too.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
Yeah, so I'm sorry about jumping out.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
But they, I will say, they are more knowledgeable in
knowing that it's not the package, it's not the Instagram,
it's not the wrapping of a person. It is actually deeper.
They are learning that on their own. A big part
(14:29):
of them they are there's still a big part that
is the Instagram. Ready TikTok. Ready superficial because during COVID
it's swung that way.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
But well, do you think it's that or do you
think I know my generation. If you're twenty two three,
you weren't married, you're an old maid, you know, And
we a lot of us during that time stayed home
and raise our children, so we were financially de on
someone else. That's a perfect situation for abuse. That is
that is but these younger people, women are doing they're
(15:08):
out there, they're help there are it's for most even
if they don't get couples don't get along. There's typically
a man and a woman who are both bringing in
some sort of income. So women aren't dependent on this,
and a lot of them don't. Well, let me ask you,
do you still see a lot of women, even though
they're in these situations where they're contributing financially, still are
victims of abuse.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Oh my gosh, yes, yes, I do that.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
I mean, I just I can understand somebody makes you
feel bad when they're holding because a lot of women,
you know this, A lot of women with children stay
in abusive relationships because they're so beaten down and the
first thing at the top of their mind is their kids.
At Least the kids are fit, at least the kids
are warm. That's what we always do. But it surprises
(15:53):
me that younger, younger women would stay in those relationships
if they're contributing.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
They men and women do they do because it is
it's both. You would be surprised women are staying in
these types of relationships out of fear. Men are staying
in abusive relationships out of the duty, out of fear
(16:18):
for their children, so sad it is.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
Well, how do you know, I know there's something called well,
here's two parts of this thing. Women. As you said earlier,
we're looking to fix the last relationship through the next relationship.
We always think if we love them enough, he'll change.
What a crock? That is? Right?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Well, people, if I love them enough to change, or
some women and men, some men to want to be rescued.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
You know, it's either.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm still trying to fix myself or I need to
be rescued. No, no, none of us needed to be rescued. Also,
none of us need to fix someone else. Really, we
need to understand.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Who we are, who we are.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
A lot of times people are afraid to figure that out.
That's the thing of it.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
In a comfortable hell, rather than taking a chance on
a what they see is being uncomfortable heaven to get
there right right.
Speaker 2 (17:31):
And as you spoke about how the keys to Heaven,
the keys to the kingdom is awareness, awareness of who
you are.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And I'm so glad you brought that up because that's
my next question. Okay, here you go. You're in a relationship. Well,
first of all, how do you know if it's addiction
that you're addicted to this relationship, this constantly repeating itself
back and forth. Or if you love somebody, what is love? Love? Well,
(18:01):
it's a combination of all those things.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
It's a combination of the positive things that we've talked about.
I mean, you can a young love, you know, our
high school love we're looking at just like oh this
boy is not allowed to me, or this girl she's
so pretty. But adult love, adult love really is meeting
of the minds and emotional intelligence. So when someone says,
(18:27):
and this is just one offul a little bit, when
someone says, what wasn't a sexual affair, it was an
emotional one? Oh oh oh no. Because first of all,
if you're having sex and emotions and it's all an affair,
the word affair is attached to it, you're cheating, period.
(18:48):
But love is with the emotions. Emotionally intelligent is being
in a relationship of mutual respect, respect, respect, respect for
yourself and that person, understanding, oh that he she respects themselves.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
And that you respect your partner too.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
You have to respect your partner, they have to respect you.
You have to respect yourself awareness, awareness and not covering
up their red flags. Because trust and believe they have them, and.
Speaker 3 (19:27):
So do you.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
You know, making excuses for another person never ever works
out well in the end.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You remember that book Manner from Mars, Women from Venus. Yes,
that was pretty much like leave them alone. When he's upset,
he goes to his cave. And that's just the part
of it. What do you think about things like that?
Speaker 2 (19:52):
Oh, if someone's treating you bad, definitely leave them alone
and keep going.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Men in general, it's like, we get into argument and
then let them cool down. And and how women are
we want to fix now? We don't want to wait.
And he's like, he'll go to a bar with his
buddies or something, and they don't Guys don't talk I mean,
they don't talk about women. They don't even talk to women.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
Right, But that.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
It made a lot of sense to me at one time.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Right, And that's the beauty of emotional intelligence and the
beauty of being evolved. You're open to hearing new ideas,
new theories because at one time that did make sense
for a lot of people, and now we know that
it no longer does. So okay, let's let's move forward
(20:44):
into now the emotional intelligence.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
But the society dictate where we are in our relationships.
It it has to. I mean La Clow said years ago,
your mother stayed home.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Right back, I mean society does the tribe. The tribe
dictates it. And when I say tribe, I'm going all
the way back to Caveman times, the tribe. That's the
most ancient part of your brain is being part of
(21:20):
a tribe. And if you are kicked out of the tribe,
you will cease to exist. Because a person from Caveman
time could not exist by themselves. They could not It
was just impossible. You were attacked by a monster.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Or yeah, tiger or whatever.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
But as a tribe together, you are more successful in
having food, heat relationships. Well we'll keep it PG relationships.
But when you're off on your own and you've been kicked, ostracized,
out it from the tribe.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
You cease to exist.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
People always want connection, So if you feel chosen, then
you think you have a connection. It's a false connection.
But people are looking for connection.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Oh yeah, that's the number one thing, and they're looking
for somebody who can ease the pain and that they
haven't dealt with yet, and they should have dealt with
before they got into the next relationship. Okay, let's talk
about it. I mean, it's always the other person. The
other person. Yeah, how important it is to know yourself
(22:37):
and what you expect. Like, my father was successful, I'm
going to want a guy that is successful, right.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
I will say that is a piece of it.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
More so though my father was successful, I'm going to
be successful. Ah my partner, Hey, I want my partner
to have the emotional intelligence and yeah, my partner's successful
great or my partner is an up and comer. Super,
my partner's trying really hard. Yes, as long as there's movement, movement,
(23:18):
movement in the right way, and that depends on what
stage of life you're at.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
All, that's true. That's true. Well, you know, I always
thought about these couples that were fixed up by their
parents in like Japan. I used to think that's awful,
you don't even love somebody. But then I started thinking,
they have so much in common. Chances are they're going
to get What do you think about that?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Well, I think that that is also.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
From another culture.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
It works for them because they have different mindset, a
different approach. And that's not my answer.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
History.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
However, in looking at it and studying it, it started
out as sort of a bartering thing, you know, my
my son, my daughter for this, for that, for a
place in study. Yeah, for money, for riches and wealth.
So it was a boring thing. Now it's turned into
(24:21):
something else. However, that's where it started historically, and it's
a totally different culture than what I was raised in.
But it sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. Just like our ways,
are you know, ways from our.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Ways? That works sometimes they.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Don't, you know it just well that's why you know,
I'm I think these kids who don't get married till
they're thirty forty years old, I think they have it
right because first of all, what the heck do you
know at twenty years old?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Right?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
And thinking what if you get married to somebody you
want to have children and they don't want to have children,
or religious things are an issue, So are we better
off looking for someone? There's got to be that attraction though.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Too, of course there is. There is the attraction. Now
is it physical? Is it emotional? It's not you know
a little of both, but more so the emotional because
you can have a physical attraction the person's and.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I can't carry a conversation with them.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
So what would you what would your advice be to
anybody out there whether you can fix it. You can
fix it. First is not to blame the other person,
right is, if you're in a relationship, even if they
don't want to talk about it, you get yourself fixed.
And I would think that's empowering.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Fixing yourself is hugely empowering. My lot of people come
to me with that whole you know, do I've had
this happen, and this happen, and this happened, and this happened,
and isn't me? And I know they don't want me
to say yes, But guess what I do tell them
because that's who I am. I want them to get
(26:13):
healed and better. So I'm going to make them aware
real fast. Yes, yes, yes it's you, and not in
a negative way, but in a fun way, so that
they have the awareness. You know, people pleasing is bad.
People pleasing is.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Not pleasing at all.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
People pleasing is detrimental. It steals your soul never never
end never never. And the people when you finally become
aware that, oh I've been people pleasing, that's why I'm
so unhappy. That's why I can't get out from under
these patterns of negativity and patterns of bad relationships, either
(26:49):
with friends, with coworkers, with someone you're romantically involved with.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
It's you know, right, people pleasing.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Will steal yourself. And so when you realize that, you
acknowledge it, and you're like, I'm changing it, and you
start to change it, you start to change it, the
hell that rains down on your head because you are
no longer being controlled anymore. You are no longer being
the rescuer, the healer for someone who doesn't want to
(27:21):
put in the work for the work, a voider. They
get mad at you. They're not happy for you, they
are not happy that you have this new awareness.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
I wouldn't tell people to tell anybody like, oh, I've
been a people pleaser. I'm going to stop doing that.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
No, just stop, just stop, because they're still going to
be the person is still out there that's going to
try to control them. Well, I depend on you. You're the
only one that can do this.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
That's not true. That's not true.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So they will use manipulative tactics to try and make
someone go back into people pleasing, which is why boundaries
are so important.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Boundaries, But boundaries.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
But you know what, all this stuff we're talking about it,
so it's common sense. But when emotion and addiction, I'm
not necessarily talking about drugs or alcohol. You can become
a drink addicted in a relationship to that person. At
what point you say stop stop, I need to get
out of here.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
That's different for every person. When it finally comes around
to the stop stop, I have to get out of here,
then you get out. Then you just go it's time.
There's no no more time.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
It's over.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
And you know, with a lot of resources out there
for even women in abusive relationships, you know how you
have to plan and get out and not there. But
if you're waiting for things to change, let me say
this to anybody out there. If you're listening to this
program and you're forty years old and you're miserable, but
you love them and blah blah blah blah, are you
(28:58):
going to be singing the same song at fifty think
about that. Michelle, this has been awesome. You're gonna have
to come back. My guest again is with the per book.
I want to talk about a book with the abcs
of narciss systems soaring past toxic relationships. This has been awesome.
Michelle Willard Hoffer please come in again. Have you Valentine's Day?
(29:21):
By the way, this show airs. But how does somebody
get in touch with you?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Well, they can email me at Michelle m I C
H K L L E two ls at Soaringminds, dot.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Me me and you can always get in touch with
me here at the station. I'll pass the information on it. Also,
don't forget you can catch Inside every weekend on each
of our ten iHeart stations are Anytime I'm your favorite
podcast that I'm Sylvia Moss. This has been insight Thanks
so much for listening. To see you next week.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
M
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