INTERVIEW: Michael Eric Dyson On Trump-Biden Rematch, J. Cole's Maturity, Beyonce's Achievements + More

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Wake that ass up in the morning. Breakfast Club Morning.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
Everybody's DJ n V Jess hilarious, Chelamine the guy. We
are the Breakfast Club. You got a special guests in
the building. That's right, the good brother Michael Eric Dison.

Speaker 3 (00:13):
Welcome back, brother, Hey, it's good to be here. The
new digs they looked great.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
Wow, man, sal how come no pictures of dicing on
the walls headline the same thing you got the crispy here.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
No.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
I had to get it faded up before I came here, man,
you know, I had to hang with y'all. I had
to get right. Man.

Speaker 4 (00:31):
Now you in town for the National Action Network Summit. Yeah,
something the good brother, Reverend Shoping had been doing for years.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
But what exactly is that.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Well, it's a convention, an annual gathering for his organization,
National Action Network, and it's a remarkable gathering of all
kinds of folks.

Speaker 3 (00:46):
I was at the gala last night.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
He's honoring everybody from Whoopi Goldberg uh, to Caroline Wanga,
the CEO of Essence UH to to you know, the
the young lady Alexis Magil who runs the Planned Parenthood.
So it's an awards banquet, but the entire gathering, you
might see Vice President Harris, you might see President Biden,

(01:07):
you might see Charlamagne the God rolling through their DJ
envy And it's an incredible gathering to talk about politics, culture,
religion and what we do as a society to respond
to the need for justice. And I'm actually a keynote
for the Minister's luncheon on Friday to try to talk
about social justice and the necessity of the church connecting

(01:31):
to the social justice arena.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Okay, well it is a big election. Yeah, it is
a big election. Bro man. How you feel is Biden?
How you feel about Truma? The rematch? American does not
wanting It's true, but it's what we got.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
You know. I want the Lakers to be every year
in the finals, because I was raised as a Lakers fan.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
But that ain't who's plan.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
You know. It's probably gonna be the Nuggets and maybe
the Celtics, So you gotta choose one of them. And
the thing is is that, yes, we think we want
better choices because we want better choices. We think that
better people should run because we think better people should run.
But these are the people running. I happen to believe
that there is not even a question for black people

(02:13):
of who to choose. I mean, Joe Biden has been
far above anything that President or ex President Trumps provided.
I saw him in the What was it talking about jobs,
bro I mean, the unemployment rate of Black America now
is about five point six.

Speaker 3 (02:32):
When Biden came into office, it was nine point three.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
He's talking about money and checks, and I see Sexy
Read and other rappers talking about he gave us a check.
First of all, please study your politics and ya civics.
That's the Congress that allotted that money. Plus is yodo.
And if you're going to count that way, then count
what Biden did for relieving the burden of people paying
back their student loans, and on and on and on

(02:56):
when we look at every metric, not only putting a
black woman in the Vice president office, not only putting
a black woman on the Supreme Court, but doing programs
that lift all boats, that address African American people specifically
in some instances, but more broadly issues that are concerning us,
whether it's about discrimination and housing, whether it's about not

(03:18):
only student loans, but every effort of education, kicking kids
out of school early and on and on and on.
It ain't no question for me. Donald Trump is a
vortex of bigotry. He is the leader of the big autocracy,
the rule reign and tyranny of forces that are antithetical
to our best interests, not only as black people, but
as a nation. And when we look at every indication

(03:41):
of where we are as a nation, this is a
guy who's still standing by people who supported January sixth,
the insurrectionist. He's trying to make them American patriots, but
demonizing Black Lives matter, demonizing.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
People who protest for the right and ability to live.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
In this nation without the unjust encumbrances imposed on us
by white supremacy. So I don't understand what black people
see in Donald Trump's swag. I mean, come on, this
borrowswag at best, it's referred swag at best. I mean
Barack Obama had swag coming down Air Force run. It
might as well been, you know, fifty cent planning in

(04:16):
the background. I don't know what you heard about me,
but the reight can't get a dollar out of me. Right,
he had swag, but he had a tan suiting people
went crazy. Now, Donald Trump the face of neo fascism,
the face of an authoritarian government that is already indicated
if he gets back in office what he's going to do.
There ain't no choice for us and black people. We
got to wake up. These are the things we have

(04:38):
to attend to. And look, you saw the article I
think in the New York Times yesterday that said recently
that said that Donald Trump and the Republican Party are
supporting third party interest because those detract from and take
votes away from Joe Biden.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
So we know in a tight race, every vote counts.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Tell r RFK Jr.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
In particular.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
And I think that again, this is not time for
this extended journey of narcissism, this escapade of self deification. Bro,
these are serious issues at stake, and Black folk got
to get out there and vote.

Speaker 4 (05:14):
I don't disagree with anything that you said, but I
think that we don't take the time sometimes to take
a step back and see why people do gravitate towards,
you know, somebody like Trump, Because I keep telling folks
over and over, you know, people will forget what you did,
they'll forget what you said, but they won't forget how.

Speaker 3 (05:31):
You made them feel.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
In twenty people felt they got the stimulus checks, they
got the PPP loans, so they felt like it was
more money in their pocket. Now, what I tell folks is,
let's think about how we got there. We got there
because of Donald Trump's mishandling of COVID. So do you
want to see millions of people die thanks in order
for you to get that check in your pocket?

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Right?

Speaker 4 (05:50):
And I think the other problem is the Democrats just
do a terrible job messaging. And I think sometimes we
helped them with terrible messaging because we spend so much
time talking about how bad Donald Trump is, knowing you
ain't gonna change none of those people in mind who's
supporting Trump. You don't talk about the good that the
Biden Harris administration is doing enough.

Speaker 1 (06:07):
I think amen, I mean absolutely right. And they could
do a better job of evangelizing their own evolution, their
own viewpoints, and what they've done for black people and others.
But you you know, you damned if you do, then
you damned if you don't. Look on your show, Joe
Biden made a joke. He was like, if you don't
vote for me, you ain't black.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Oh my god, I don't know that was a joke. Well,
here's my point.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
We say we want a white person who understands us
and con vibe with us, right, Bill Clinton playing the saxophone,
but more importantly understanding the limits, the interests, the ideals
of Black America. That was an inside joke, Joe Biden saying,
if you don't vote for me, that's a bit of swag,
if you will, by saying, by promoting the fact that

(06:53):
he understood the inside language and discourse of Black America.
That was not laying laying claims to the fact that,
of course, if you are authentically black, then I am
the only choice for you.

Speaker 3 (07:03):
That was a bit of swag. And then we're tripping.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
We don't want it.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Say if you go for Trump, you voting get your
own interest. I mean, he ain't lying. I don't detect
no lives. So I'm saying, if he's got that, we
don't mind it.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
If you know, you know some rapper who's white doing it,
you know, if it's Eminem and you know doctor Draken
Sentim said he's the coldest brother on the microphone and
what he does and blah blah blah.

Speaker 3 (07:24):
So we don't mind that kind of swag.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
But if a guy who understands us who's had Look
look complicated histories.

Speaker 3 (07:31):
You know, people are constantly pointing, well, look at Joe
Biden in the nineteen nineties, bro, what have you done
for me?

Speaker 1 (07:35):
Lately?

Speaker 3 (07:35):
People evolve and grow, they change.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Now Joe Biden is still saying the stuff he said
back then about you know, not wanting his kids to
be involved in a racial jungle or you.

Speaker 3 (07:45):
Know, against busting.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
Well find me a white person that really wasn't against
busting at that particular point, even in enlightened white liberals.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
Now, my point is not to say that he is perfect.

Speaker 4 (07:55):
He's not.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
The point is, though, what has he become? What is
he evolved to rock him said, it's not where you're from,
is where you're at?

Speaker 3 (08:01):
What is he doing now?

Speaker 1 (08:02):
What is his interest in our progress? And what do
we get from supporting that particular figure Donald Trump? Again,
your point is right, Let's figure out why.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
People are attracted him. It ain't it ain't great.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
I mean, we could be attracted him because rappers who
put Donald Trump on understood that Donald Trump was like them,
swag a lot of bravado. But we see he ain't
got the He lying like most rappers, you know, about
what they got. When Jay Z said, well, hey hey, homeboy, playboy,
where's those those diamonds? That's not what you said. Where's
the hummer? That's not what you said you had. So

(08:38):
we know a lot of rappers lie, that's what they do.
So Donald Trump was attractive because he was a liar.
He was full of mendacity. Here's a guy we're talking about,
Joe Biden back in the day. You and your daddy
are racist in terms of the what buildings you owned
and not wanting black people to be there.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
So if we gonna do it, let's go to for tap.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
But my point is that, yes, at this point, don't
we we understand enough of why black people might be
attracted him some black men. Let's go there, some black
men because of the swag of patriarchy, a man in charge.
He's talking about grabbing stuff.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
This is vicious.

Speaker 1 (09:13):
Repudiation of an enlightened sense of masculinity. You ain't got
to do that in order to be a man. So
everything that Donald Trump represents that is attracted to us
ain't great. So let's get a do away with the
kind of patriarchy, the misogyny, the sexism that royal so
much of our community in ways that are destructive, whether
we see it in the church or the temple of
the synagogue and so on, or whether we see it

(09:34):
in schools. So the point is, yes, let's examine why
black people may be attracted or others. And we ain't
gonna change their minds, but we can change enough minds
within our own community to say, don't vote against your
own best interests.

Speaker 3 (09:47):
And in that case, I think there's little choice about
who we should vote for on that day.

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Well, you say the black conservatives who say our best
interests are conservative.

Speaker 1 (09:54):
Rue, That's why so few of them, they numbers speak
for themselves, right, Black conservatives are quite interesting. You know,
you had a wonderful interview here with Canda's owns.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
She ain't you know what's interesting to me.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
Candi's owners ain't apologized for what she said about George Floyd.
She made an entire documentary, but you know, besmirching this
man's attitude posthumously, no apology for that.

Speaker 3 (10:22):
If that's how you feel, why should she apologize.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Well, first of all, because she shouldn't have. She should
apologize because she's wrong.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
Number one.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
Number two, she can feel that way, and that's your
point about feeling. Let me connect these two black people
what we feel as opposed to what we do. Sometimes
you don't feel like loving your partner, you don't feel
like loving your wife or your husband or the person
you wit, but you do it out of what a
sense of duty and obligation. Those are not bad words.
So just because she felt that way, the facts show
that's not true. The stuff she tried to make up

(10:49):
has been empirically disproved. At the same time, here's a
man lying on the ground begging for his life that
millions of black people can identify with, and she's trying
to turn it into some conspiration see of black you know,
refusal to be responsible. You know her and Jason Whitlock.
These are people who are destructive for our community. And
Candace Owns gets a break because white folk got rid

(11:12):
of her, The right wing got tired of her on
the issue of Israel versus Palestine when she had a
fleeting moment of revelation. And now she's accepted and embraced.
If that's what black conservativism is her or Jason Whitlock
or Clarence Thomas, who has been a singular source of
destruction for our people. The black conservatives ain't that much

(11:34):
to recommend for their particular viewpoint.

Speaker 3 (11:36):
This is what I think we're missing, And I'm not
defending any of these people.

Speaker 4 (11:40):
What I think with somebody like a canvas owns, I
don't think black people, certain black people didn't.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
Realize she already had a large audience Black.

Speaker 4 (11:48):
She had a movement called Blexit, and that was six
seven years ago when she was trying to get people,
black people in particular, to get off the Democratic plantation
and seek other things, whether it was being a conservative,
being an independent, whatever it is. So I think now
when people say this thing about, oh, it's black people
embracing her, it's like, nah, she already had an audience.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
When we say black people are really talking about new
black people who we wasn't embracing her before, the black
people who weren't. Look, of course they are conservative black
people in this country. The average Black person, without respect
to politics, is culturally and religiously and morally conservative. They
believe in tank commandments. Yeah, they might want to support
a woman's right to have abortion, bodily autonomy, but for real,

(12:28):
for real, when they go to church, they're concerned about
the fact that you might be a bored in a baby, right,
So you can have a particular religious viewpoint about an
issue and have a political and understanding the political consequence
of that viewpoint. That's why black people have been radically
dissimilar to white evangelicals and the politicization of white evangelicals
who have used their religion to try to make this

(12:49):
a Christian nation. Martin Luther King Junior used his Christianity
to make this as nation. And that's a big difference.
When I see people praying in certain legislatures and praising
to God, I'm an atheist to that, God said I
only I'm tired of your incense. I'm tired of the bs.
So I'm saying God, if God is an atheist to that,
I ain't gonna believe in it either. So back to

(13:11):
the point of Candace Owns, Yeah, there are some black
people who follow her.

Speaker 3 (13:14):
This. Look the great beloved.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
May Angelo, a dear friend of mine whom I loved,
who I think was right in ninety nine point nine
percent of time. I think she was wrong about supporting
Clarence Thomas. Give him a chance. Let's see what he'll
do when he gets in there. And then he got
there and he his Rex shop every since. So there
are always gonna be Black people who are gonna give
ear to certain conservative values, viewpoints and visions. The point is,
what are the political consequences of what she's arguing. And

(13:38):
I'm saying, at the end of the day, most the
masses of black people are not co signing the kinds
of viewpoints that black conservatives are putting forward. And Candace
Owns in particular may have Look, she's bright, she's intelligence,
she's articulate, she can be funny, she has a decided viewpoint,
and I think she should be able to say that,
and we should be able to say, what you are
doing is counterproductive to the interests of African American people.

(14:01):
The masses of black people can't co sign that because
of the masses of black people. Don't see reflected in
your vision of standing with Kanye West and saying white
lives matter. I'm saying, at what point.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Within those same black people stand with Kanye West still
that they do, but not a bunch of them, not
a whole bunch of them.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Not When I'm saying, the masses of black people love
Kanye for what he did, his music, what he represented,
there's no question about that. The first five six albums incredible,
and some of the music sinci It is incredible. We
also have an understanding about him because of mental illness,
and we know that mental health and mental illness are
things he struggled with in public. So yes, we're gonna

(14:39):
grant him some kind of recognition and we're gonna stand
up for what he did when he stood up for
us when he said George Bush doesn't care for black people.
So there were moments in Kanye's evolution where he made
significant political interventions in the name of a kind of
understanding of that blackness. Viscerally, he didn't have a sophisticated

(14:59):
political expression, but.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
He said stuff that we could vibe with. So yeah, yeah,
I got to help Trump in the White House. You
also hope trumping White House that you momy a superman.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
I mean, come on, bro, I mean at that level,
are we going to ascribe that to an issue of
mental health or we're going to say that's your choice
and what you did. Sammy Davis Junior went to the
White House with Richard Nixon, right, but it was a
different consequence. He was raising money for black people and
standing behind us and by us. So I think that, Look,
Candace Owns and Kanye West.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Bless them.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
They can do what they want, they can believe what
they want. But we have a right and an obligation
to say but that is not productive for us. And
just because you may can doe from that, or some
black people follow you, the masses of black people enough
following you, because the masses of black people don't desern
in your belief system, a structure of reliable confidence invested
in this political order. For you to represent us, you

(15:49):
ain't representing what we believe. When you believe in things
you don't understand, then you suffer superstition. Ain't the way
the great Stevie Wonder said. And some of that conservative
stuff is kind of political superstition premised upon empirical facts.
It's not based upon what we know to be the case.
It's an idealized expression of where we are. So when
the conservatives latch on, you shouldn't be the color of

(16:10):
your skin, It should be the count of your character.
That was a dream that a man articulated, that was
not a reality. So again, for Candace Owns to get
a pass, and this is what I mean by pass,
not that they weren't already black people following her, but
for our sympathies of those who didn't necessarily sign on
to what she believed to now be sympathetic to her

(16:31):
because she's gotten mistreated by white folks.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
That's what we've been telling you. Sympathetic the hurdle. You
don't think anybody's being sympathetic to Candasons.

Speaker 1 (16:39):
Oh yeah, there are a lot of people sympathetic to
Candassones as a black woman. Stand up for her the
same way I was talking about Maya Angelo with Clarence Thomas,
and he's a black man.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
Don't jump on him. Let's be concerned. Uh you know,
it could be.

Speaker 4 (16:51):
It could be because they agree on the God's issue.
That's probably I can do that. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
So my point is, again for black concernservatives who articulate
their ideas and beliefs, that's fine, but most of them
don't have rooting, In fact, don't have rooting in a
political order that has respected the integrity of our being,
that has respected us, that has appreciated us. Some of
the same white conservatives that they joined with now celebrating
Martin L. King Junior couldn't stand him when he was alive,

(17:18):
called him Martin Luther. Kuhm saw him as the worst
scourge on the American democracy, a blemish to the record
of the American Constitution of Declaration of Independence. Not embrazen
then why because they think they can use them. These
are the same people who stand against the very politics
that we're invested in, and when black folk do it,
there's an especial assault and insult to us, because y'all

(17:40):
been there long enough. Clarience, Thomas is a dark skinned
black man. I'm sure some of his animals toward black
people has to do with being mistreated by black people
because he.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Was such a dark sand black man.

Speaker 1 (17:51):
My daddy was from all Benny, Georgia, a blue black man,
So as a light skinned Negro, I saw that growing up,
and I saw how people treat him and mistreated him. Me,
being a curly haired used to wear glasses till I
got my eyes fixed the other day on the cataracts,
so I can see you now, huh yeah, no, no, no,
I got well, it's like LASiS, but I had cataracts,

(18:13):
so they removed the cataracts. It was lasers and surgery, man,
So now I can see I ain't got no glass
and I can see a handsome all I mean, you know,
the two are not contradicted. I happened to be allergic. However,
let me be honest that I can't smoke weed, and
I found out by well anyway. So the point is,
the point is ultimately at the end of the day,
then when we think about who we are as a

(18:35):
people and what kind of ideas we put forth and
who we are, I'm just saying, the black conservatives have
not stood up for it. So Clarence Thomas probably has
animus toward people because they mistreated him as a dark
sanded black man. But what he's done since has more
than paid us back, the furious indifference to the being
of black people deciding what folks even when conservative white

(18:55):
folks are how you going too far, Clarence Thomas said,
you ain't gone far enough. We have authenticated these people
to a certain degree by not speaking out vociferously against them.
And I'm saying again with Candice Owns, she might feel
that George Floyd represented a certain threat, but when it
comes down to facts versus fiction, it ain't even true.

Speaker 3 (19:14):
And we got to hold people accountable for that.

Speaker 4 (19:16):
I guess for me, I feel like somebody like Clarence Thomas, Yeah,
I can understand holding him accountable, somebody like Candace Ows
and it could just be me. It's just like she's
not an elected official. She's the person with a platform
on YouTube the podcast. Sure, like, how much are we
supposed to argue about something like that, especially when we
already know the truth. The troop is right there in
your face, the cops who killed George Floyd dre in prison.

(19:38):
You know, we saw George Floyd get killed, the coroners
that he got choked out, and that's what this cause
of death.

Speaker 3 (19:43):
Watching it run and argue with somebody.

Speaker 1 (19:45):
Well, because the thing is is that her viewpoints until
her I guess she had a blexit from Ben Shapiro,
so maybe she had a bensis. The point is that
that influences white other white people, other white conservatives. You
ideas that filter into legislatures where in Tennessee where I live,
they kick out to the two young justins and a

(20:07):
white woman, where it makes a difference in terms of
shutting up discourse and dialogue about beliefs that they don't
cherish about closing down conversations about who owns, guns and
the nut. So the influence of that platform has far
reaching consequence in ways that we can determine. In some
ways we may not be immediately able to determine, but

(20:30):
that have an effect on white folk who think about
these issues of race and who feel justified because they
can point to a black face to say, Oh, my god,
this is what Jason Whitlock believes. This is what Candice
Owns believes, this is what Glenn Lowry believes. So the
justification for certain self hating moments of African American politics, ideology,

(20:51):
and interests is enough to say to us, we got
to speak up and out against this, because there's a
relationship between that kind of stuff and the belief that
Trump represents a certain kind of virtue and value. If
you hear enough black people or enough times of a
conservative articulate black person suggesting that this is not a problem,
it does have consequence, and those little inter you know,

(21:13):
those are where the little space.

Speaker 3 (21:15):
It's not the most black people who think, oh, that's bullshit.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
We know that, it's enough black people who may not
understand what the differences are ideologically and politically between what
they articulate and what the interests of African American people
are to make a difference.

Speaker 3 (21:28):
I think a lot of people are.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
I agree with with a lot of what you said,
but I think a lot of people are tied of
I call it the daddy's law in my house.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
The daddy's law in my house is I said it,
and you do what I say, don't ask me no questions.
I feel like that's a lot with Democrats.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
We see things sometimes when we ask a question and
be like, oh, you're going against us.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
I'm not going against you. I'm asking a question. Right.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
We talked about Body, Right, when you talk about body
and people thought he had amnesia just watching the things
that he do. And then when you ask about it,
it's like, oh, you're going against him, You're given you,
given you given the Republicans. No, I'm just asking because
I might not want that.

Speaker 4 (22:02):
Democrats any critique, any critique, critique, automatically making where the
money goes with this, that.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
And the other.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
If I ask a question or question anybody like anybody like,
I can question you, you can question me. Doesn't necessarily
mean we enemies, doesn't mean.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
I'm going against you, but were just having a real conversation.

Speaker 2 (22:19):
And I think that's what bothers a lot of black
Americans when it comes to Democrats.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
I get that, I mean, but if you think that's
the problem with Democrats, what in the hell do you
think that's in regard to Republicans who at least with Democrats,
you have.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
An argument to be made.

Speaker 1 (22:31):
And by the way, I agree with all that in
the sense that we should be able to criticize. I
wrote an entire book as this Generation, as a whole
book on Barack Obama. And even though I distinguished myself
from them in terms of how far at least Wes
was able to go, I think Tavis had a bit
more decor.

Speaker 3 (22:52):
But but the decorum, I'm sorry, But the point.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Is this is that, yes, you know, I was out
there taking strays, uh, because I believe a certain thing
and I wanted to hold people accountable. Still love them. See,
I believe in the six inning theory of baseball. As
you know, this is baseball season, and the sixth inning,
if it stars raining, whoever is the head is gonna win. Right.
If you go six innings, whoever's the head gonna win.

(23:15):
So I think we got to go six innings. That
means we got to stay on the same team, have
the message of productive engagement politically for our people, what
helps us, what hurts us, unidentifying enemies, friends and opponents,
and then after six innings you got some stuff to
spread around. So when you make a critical comment like that,
don't be naive. I'm just being objective and neutral. I'm

(23:37):
answered raising a question. You ain't just being objective and neutral,
even if you intend to be the consequence of your
talk is not your intent may be to be neutral,
the consequence is it reinforces a certain narrative or belief.
That doesn't mean you can't be critical because I was critical,
but I put it in context. I specified how much
love I had for Obama. I specified what I thought

(23:58):
he was doing right, talked about the interests he held.
I talked about how white supremacy ganged up on him.
But I also said he had three bites at the apple.
He ain't chose no black woman to be on the
Supreme Court. He had many opportunities where he spoke up
and out against black people. I think that his comments
about and especially his spouse in regard to Jeremia Wright,

(24:19):
were wholly gratuitous and destructive. After the fact. So I
got criticisms, but I got to understand the degree to
which they play into a narrative that either supports my
beliefs or undercuts them. So there's no kind of objective.
This our comedian point of objectivity. I stand outside the
flow of human history. No, bro, you down here with
West Montgomery on the ground, as y'all probably too young,

(24:41):
remember West Montgomery, the great jazz guitarist, down here on
the ground. We're down here on the ground. So it's
not that we can't be critical, But I'm saying, what's
your critique of a political order where Republicans don't even
give a damn about who you are? At least what
Democrats you can push them? At least with democrats. Minute
you said you claimed you were part of, and then you.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Fill into blanks. So what are you doing? You're failing us.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
That kind of critique is is quite necessary and powerful,
and when we do it, however, is extremely powerful as well,
and we have to be strategic about.

Speaker 3 (25:14):
It to do it. It's all right.

Speaker 1 (25:17):
Time in the election is a damn good time.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
Here's my point.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
It's four years in between. Where is the critique It's
been happening I mean, look, look, there's no question Biden
can say, hey, calm down with some of that, because
you've been consistent in the critique. But I'm saying we
got to be strategic about what we're saying, and when
we're saying that, I'm not saying, surrender your capacity as
a free thinking person. But what kills me, what cracks

(25:43):
me up? When I hear canvas ons and and Kanye,
I'm talking about getting off the Democratic plantation?

Speaker 3 (25:49):
What damn plantation do you.

Speaker 1 (25:50):
Think you're on?

Speaker 3 (25:51):
When you are with Ben Shapiro.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
When you were with Donald Trump, you owned the biggest
plantation at all, the mental one, the one that is
exercising your mind, and the ventriloquism of white supremacy, black
mouth moving, white ideas flowing out of you. So please
tell me when you disparage and legitimately criticize so called
plantations politics of the Democrats, What damn plantation are.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
You speaking for? What master's voice are you amplifying when
you say that?

Speaker 4 (26:18):
I agree with you wholeheartedly, And I also say I
feel like black people in particular, we shouldn't be beholden
to any party. I don't think these fanatics over Democrats
are insane to me. These fanatics over conservatives are insane
to me. We should always be looking at who and
what serves our best interests. I don't even think we
should be talking about voting for individuals.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
Let's talk about the.

Speaker 4 (26:37):
Ideas and the ideas that that individual is putting on
the table. But I think that'll get you, father, But
let me in a conversation with you.

Speaker 3 (26:43):
Let me ask you this. Here's the point. Why are
black people stupid? I don't think so. No, not are
they dumb?

Speaker 1 (26:48):
I don't think so. So why is it that black
people are voting for the Democrats. It's not because they're
on a damn plantation. Because at least the Democrats they
serve limitis, They serve our best interests.

Speaker 3 (26:57):
So you know the old saying, no permanent party, just
permanent interests.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
I get that. But our interests have been tied up
with people who at least are willing to listen to us.
Tell me what interests of African American people accept a
few black rappers that Donald Trump got out of jail.
What black person can point to him and say these
This man articulates the interests of my community, embraces us
as a people understands our plight. In predicament, he's talking

(27:22):
about shitthold countries, many of whom, many of which are
countries of color black people in them. This is a
dude consistently talking about hurting and harming Black people, using
the police power of the state to circumscribe.

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Us and to undermine us.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
So I'm saying, even by your litmus tests, the Republicans
ain't gotten nothing for us. This ain't old school Republicans.
Back in when Nelson Rockefeller was a Republican, my god,
or William Cohen was a Republican, a liberal Republican. That's
unheard of at this point. So there are some people
who are certainly in the history in the history books,
who are Republicans, who are down with us. That's that's

(28:00):
why black people were a Republican. When I hear Republicans,
we are the Party of Lincoln, Brodad was a long
time ago. That was a long long time ago when
the Republican Party was concerned about our interests and the
Democratic Party represented as part of the Dixiecrats and others
who were a Southern base against the best interests of
black people.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
I'm saying, even by your litmus tests.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Why are we wen talking about what Republicans done because
they don't give a damn And let me just say this,
when you look at the fact that in these state legislatures,
thirty eight out of fifty of them are run by
Republicans and they don't give a good gosh darn.

Speaker 3 (28:34):
About black people.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
They're voting against us, They're creating rules and restrictions against us.
The voting has been made far more difficult. Even conservative
courts say you are going too far. You've redrawn the maps.
They don't respect the integrity of black voting. The Voting
Rights Act, which has been gutted but still powerful enough
to provide an umbrella for us, is being assaulted and

(28:56):
attacked every day. Why would we even vote for anybody
who's part of that party?

Speaker 3 (29:00):
And everything you're saying is absolutely correct.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
But what I want us to start doing is just
look at the things that these people are doing that
is getting people's attention. You dismissed something, right, you said that,
you said that he let out three black rappers. It's
not even about the black rappers. It's about the first
step back. Whenever somebody can just point to something and
say that is a tangible thing that person did that
I actually saw for myself, right, that helped somebody in

(29:25):
my community. They'll gravitate towards that.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
OK. I get that, But but Eric Holder really reduced
the disparity between powder cocaine and crack cocaine, which you
know disproportionately assaulted us when you.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
See it and market it well though, Okay.

Speaker 1 (29:41):
What do you want the commercial? The product?

Speaker 3 (29:43):
The commercial? Okay, it's a campaign, I understand, Look.

Speaker 1 (29:48):
But I'm saying the product is more precious than the commercial,
although we do need the commercial the campaign to articulate
what it's done.

Speaker 4 (29:54):
If I'm on further the body right now, everybody that
I gave student loans, that really to right.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
And commercials running over little bit within It's a bunk
with these people.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
Brother saying, hey, I got three hundred thousand dollars taking
off my student loan deb now I'm able to open
a business.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
I would just have them constantly.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
Against none of that, as they say, I'm not against
any of that. But at the same time, we are
sophisticated enough as the people to understand who in our
corner who ain't and who can talk about it and
who can't some things Joe Biden like say, for instance,
I heard some critiques in the State of the Union.
He didn't mention about DEI. That's because he understands that
is such a flashpoint right now on the political trajectory

(30:32):
that for him to endorse that only creates opportunities for
people to assault it. Not that we don't want it,
not that we don't need it, not that we're not
practicing it. We just look. I just saw recently where
it was finally put into order that the Small Business
Administration can't even have loans for African American people, got
to open it up for white folks and others. I'm saying,

(30:54):
this is the terrain on which we exist. Let's not
pretend we don't know. We got to wink, yeah, yeah,
I got you. You ain't got to say everything you know,
and you ain't got to say everything you doing.

Speaker 3 (31:05):
You got to do it.

Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's what I meant by the commercial versus the product.
Let's get the praxis, the practice, the political order together,
and then we can talk about what we say and
what we're not saying. And look, I am for critique,
I'm for pushing them. I'm for demanding that we do
the right thing. But I'm also for understanding we in
what April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November. That

(31:29):
ain't a whole bunch of time. So I'm saying there
some times when we come together to forge a kind
of unity, or at least provisional solidarity, where we operate
in our best interest, knowing that we got to do
the right thing. If Angela Davis, one of the most
radical and progressive voices in the history of America, especially

(31:50):
Black America, and Noam Chomsky, one of the most progressive
voices on the left ever, can both argue about supporting
Joe Biden, it that at least should give us pause
to all of the please mercenary interventions by narcissistic political
figures who want to have their day in the sunlight
as opposed to the best interest of black people in

(32:11):
this country.

Speaker 4 (32:11):
I think Donald Trump is a fascist. I think he's
a threat to democracy. I don't think that, you know,
anybody who calls himself a patriots should want somebody in
the White House who wanted to suspend the Constitution to
overthrow the results of Absolutely yes, But with all of
that on the table, what do you say to people
who say, so what, Well.

Speaker 3 (32:30):
I mean, like, I'm just saying I'm just as Like,
what do you say.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
I hate to sound like the patriots on the right wing,
but going somewhere where you think that's the case, bro,
where you think it doesn't make a difference, where you
can experience fascism up close, where the rule of law
operates against you.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Oh, this country has no crime there.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
That's because they gonna cut your arm off, bro, if
they catch you in the wrong place, and given not
breaking and entering inclinations, that would be very hard.

Speaker 4 (32:55):
Now that's how you talk to people who are already
in hell, because that's when I say, so what I mean, Like,
there's people already living in hell in this country. So
when you tell them that, yo, he's the threat of democracy,
they were like, democracy ain't never worked for us, no.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
Way, Yeah, but that's democracy ain't gonna get worse.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
Well, first of all, if they in hell, you got
to look at the conversation between Divies and Lazarus. Divies
was a rich man in hell and Lazarus ends up
going to heaven.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
So I'm not saying there's a great reversal. But you
tell people who.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Are in hell?

Speaker 3 (33:24):
Do you want to get it hotter?

Speaker 1 (33:25):
I mean there are degrees right, the sixth circle of
hell if you read Dante. So the point is that
you tell people, yeah, you in hell. But if you
think you lonely, now wait.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Until the night.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
You have a Bobby Womack theology. You've got to have
a Bobby Womack theology. If you think it's bad, now
wait until the night.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Girl.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
So black people got to understand that there are degrees
to this, right, and when we look at the degrees
to this, yes, it is tough.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
Child poverty is still real.

Speaker 1 (33:54):
The attack on black women's bodies is still real, the
dismissal of African American is still real. But it is.
If it's bad, Now, what in the hell do you
think is going to be when a fascist takes over,
When a guy who doesn't even who's not even interested
in your particular viewpoint or your suffering takes over. Yes,

(34:15):
he can go to a darn Chick fil a right
now and tell you that Joe Biden is the worst
president in the history. That's another lie he's telling. So
if we don't think that it makes a difference. And look,
it's hard for people who are suffering to hear that.
But our people have always suffered, They've always been in hell.
But they've always understood that if we use a certain
kind of particular perspective to get a certain way, if

(34:36):
we use a certain instrument to realize our ultimate ambitions.
As Howard Thurman, the Great Mystic said, refuse the temptation
to scale down your dreams to what you're experiencing right
now now. And enough Black people, And it wasn't rich
black people who believe that. It wasn't it wasn't people
who are wealthy who believe that. These are everyday people
on the plantation, These are everyday folk in the hood.

(34:58):
These are everyday people who are shared. They understood that
Hope had a message, and the message was beyond what
we can see and hear right now. There is something real.
That's why all these preachers spend Sunday mornings talking about God.
You step out on nothing and something is there. It's
not just magical kumbai ya, It's not abra kadabra. This
is about the heart of hope that animates most Black

(35:20):
activity in this country.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Afro pessimism is real.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
I respect of Frank Wilderson, I respect the theorists of
Afro pessimism because they tell us the stark truth that
we need to grapple with. But there's been a tradition
of hope within black people that makes no sense, that
is not even justified. That is absurd, and Afro absurdism
is a key to our survival. So Howard Thurman said,

(35:44):
the wrong rows of cotton, the raw hide, e whip
of the overseer. But our slave fore parents imagine a
different future. And this is what I want to say
when black people, this is the words, Oh my God,
is her Your mama's and daddy's, your great gad great
grandmamas and great granddaddy's suffered far more than what we're
suffering now. And if they had the possibility of nurturing

(36:07):
hope in their breasts, we have the obligation to do
the same.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
If you can't do it for yourself, do it for
your kids.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
If you can't do it for your kids, remember Grandma
in them and how you are the manifestation of their
very hope. And to get caught in that Heller situation,
you think you in hell? Imagine going out and working
for seventeen hours a day. You think you in hell.
Imagine having no rights and her ability to assert what
your beliefs are. You think you in hell? What about
when you had no choice but to do what a

(36:35):
slave master told you when you were raped, that will,
without moral compunction or legal redress. That was hell. And
in the midst of that hell, those black people held
up and held out hope as our condition if they
could do it. I ain't trying to hear nothing from
people right now.

Speaker 4 (36:51):
What do you think is fair or unfair in regards
to critique of personality? Like what is considered fair unfairl
Because I'm a person that believes you just can't say
what you want to say and expect everybody to agree.
Some people are going to like it, some people are
not going to like it. And with social media math,
people don't have an opinion about.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
I mean, and look, critique is one thing that that
means I'm engaging you. I'm talking to you, but you
and I'm looking at what you said. I read what
you said, I put it in context, and then I
have a response. But that's different than you just assaulting me.
That's just different than you saying stuff that ain't even true,
making it up and here now we got deep fakes.
We're worried about AI. The only AI I did is

(37:30):
Alan Iverson. Other than that, bro, it's rough. So the
thing is this, we got deep fakes, we got lies,
we got mendacities. Look at the convergence of the technology
and the techniques of fascism. The technology facilitates and it's
complicit with the spread of a certain kind of fascist
reality because now we don't we're not sure it was real,
was not? And Black people should be the last people

(37:53):
taking allegations as convictions.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Lord, have mercy.

Speaker 1 (37:55):
I mean, how can you just say something and then
convict somebody black people, of all people. I heard Dominique Martissau,
the great playwright say as bad and as jacked up
as the criminal justice system is. I'll take that any
day over somebody just saying something about you, and then
that's taking his law. And that's across the board. That's

(38:18):
whether it blm me to whatever.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
The point is.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
An allegation alone cannot substantiate or produce evidence to make
a claim worthwhile. But we see this on social media,
and let me tell you what I get. Look, people
jump on me sometimes. Look I try to be nice
to them. They say nasty stuff and I'm nice and
they're embarrassed.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
Some of them have no shame. I done wrote twenty
five books. You wrote twenty five words. Dog, it ain't e.
We're not the same, right, And.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
That's not arrogant. That's I did the work. I actually studied,
I thought about it, I reflect on it. That don't
mean I'm right because people who have thought about it
and studied on it are disagreeing with me. So disagreement
is not the index of one lacking intelligence and one
possessing it. It means that we have the considered reflection
on a particular issue. And the Internet don't even create

(39:06):
the need for that, the desire for that. We think
we can go on and read something. That's the beauty.
The beauty of digital media is that you can have
books or library books in your phone and you can
read twenty five books. I used to have to carry
them on the plane. Now you can put them in
your kindle and read them. That's beautiful. The problem is
when we when we had kind of the visceral interaction
with the paparide the text, we had to read it.

(39:28):
We went to the library because that's where the lies
are buried. We went there to dig them up, and
we look at the card catalog. That ain't the kind
of catalog you got when you got five hundred's numbers
that night, and them cars were talking about we talking
about one't eighty seven point nine.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
That wasn't a local radio station. That was where social
science was.

Speaker 1 (39:43):
My point is there was something about earning that knowledge
and digging for that knowledge and feeling that you couldn't
just take it for granted.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
And we have tremendous access now we know, we.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Have the possibility to know more than we've ever known before,
and we know less than we've ever known because we
don't have the same kind of curiosity because we think
now because we can and say something to somebody, I
like Charlemagne, the God, I can jack him up because
I have access to him now. Before you had to
go to this office write him a letter. He might
not He might not have written you back, Doc, Dear
Doctor King, I disagree with the integration.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
Blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
You don't have that kind of access. You didn't have
that kind of access then that you have now. So
it's as a marvel. But the problem is everybody got
an opinion. Everybody thinks it's equally valuable. And because you
can insult somebody. Do you think with the rhetorical capacity
I possess, I couldn't evisterate you. You don't think I
could do that too. You think that you're the only

(40:34):
one who possesses the ability to call a MF and
MF mother fo.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
I grew up into hisze Rizi nizza briso.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
I could get at you. I can cuss you out
more than you think I can. But the point is
I have restraints because I understand my power like a
like a like an old gun slinger. When you come
to town, put your registerial guns. I got a bazooka
on my hip. I could eviscerate you. The point is,
can we have common sense and civility? I know a
lot people have said civility is a problematic because sometimes

(41:02):
you got to be disruptive. I get that, but I'm saying,
for the most part, when you shutting people down and
you don't want them to that's your yes, your go
shut up? You know, and you're talking, shut up? What
about when they shut you up? What about when you
can't talk?

Speaker 3 (41:13):
That can't help us.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
It's like an eye for an eye as doctor King said,
everybody be blind. So the point is, if we all
shutting each other out, we all hollering each other, we're
all protesting each other, can we ever speak? So I'm
for speaking and listening. I'm not for cancel culture. I'm
for engaging people. I'm for talking to other people, and
I'm for saying, yes, let's talk and.

Speaker 4 (41:33):
We can be critical confrontational conversation, I mean conversation, obal conferenceation.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
How about that? Criticism is not jumping on you, being
nasty about you saying you know what, Dyson, I noticed
you said X, Y, and Z, but you didn't say
this holding holding.

Speaker 3 (41:45):
Me to account.

Speaker 1 (41:46):
We should be able to do that. And I think
that's why I mentioned about a Manda sales or I
know you and I had a conversation about about the
young Jonathan Owens and I posted yesterday and you know
or right right Simon Bio's husband, and people kept saying,
you ain't the whole conversation.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
I listened to the whole conversation.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
In fact, there's worse than that, because at one point
he goes, look, she's the one who kind of you know,
match with me, and something he says, she keeps saying
she matched, but it was really her. I'm saying, bro,
I'm not trying to dog Jonathan on us because that's look.
I've been mad three times, clearly to black women. So
clearly I see on the end of people be saying
he got a white wife. I ain't mad if I
had a white wife. I walk in the room with

(42:23):
a white wife. I ain't had no white wife. I
wrote a book called Why I Love Black Women, so
I done married three of them. My point is, so
I got look the vast reservoir of failure I can
share with you. I can talk to you about it.
I'm saying, let's just put the young man on game.
When you got a woman like that, This is the
point you made again about intent versus consequence. You intent
could have been funny, You inten could have been yeah, girl,

(42:45):
you were chasing me. Look at the consequence in the
world where black women are bitches and holes and skeezers
and slupts and dismissed and not recognized.

Speaker 3 (42:52):
And not valued.

Speaker 1 (42:53):
So when you say that, the reason I juxtaposed Trevor Kelsey,
who's far more famous than you, young man, who says
I'm just lucky that I even got a chance to
holler her because you know about sports and everything like that,
talking about Taylor Swift. I'm saying, the contradistinction is not
to demoralize this young man, is to put you on
game game, grown ass man energy in light, grown ass

(43:15):
man enlightenment. I'm sixty five years old, I'm officially grown,
and I'm saying to you, bro, lift your woman up strategically,
if not even substantively, understand that she is valuable to you.
If this woman is one of the most famous gymnasts
and arguably the greatest gymnasts in the history of gymnastic
exploitation and performance, ain't nobody doubting that, then at least

(43:38):
at this point, don't look like you're trying to to
besmirch her. And again, it was a joke. I get
people who defend it. I understand that. At the end
of the day, though, uplift that woman, elevate that woman,
happy wife, happy life. And I'm sure he's having a
beautiful time, he's doing beautiful things.

Speaker 3 (43:54):
I wasn't trying to jam him up. I'm trying to
say to young people.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
However, in a culture where women have been demonized, stigmatized,
and continue to be We got rappers talking about I
only want to deal with a light skinned woman. I
only you know, Kodak black er. You know, I don't
want to deal with this woman and so on and
so for and hurting her and looking at making the
stallion and siding with a guy who shot her in
the foot. I'm just saying, this is the world in
which black women live, and if we can't acknowledge that,

(44:17):
and put on top of that the ability to get
an abortion, you know who, that affects more than anybody us.
So I'm just asking for a little consideration and a
little knowledge dropping from an older man, That's all I'm.

Speaker 4 (44:29):
Gonna I sent you another article with He is always
gushing over her, and he is always pointing to her,
but also to what if he was just telling.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
This story she did? What if she did try to
holler him that's why they got together.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
But she she argued with him on She argued with
him on say, she said, d ain't what happened. She said,
you had already liked me, and because you liked me,
then I therefore reached out.

Speaker 3 (44:46):
I'm saying, and that, look, that's their business. I don't
want to get into it. I thought the would joking,
but I just wondered why he wasn't.

Speaker 1 (44:54):
Joking at that point when he said, nah, you keep
saying that I and even if he was. Look, my
point is this, I'm not even trying to get in
today thing. I'm trying to talk about the consequence of
what might mean that brought an issue in terms of
elevating black women. Black women get enough of? You ain't
enough Black women get enough of. I don't care how
much you got, you ain't whatever. And when he says I.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
Always think the man is the catch, bro. Now that's
classic definition of patriarchy. Bro.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
I don't know what world you don't think when I
always say the man is the catch, deconstruct that for me.

Speaker 3 (45:26):
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Oh so you're dealing with Simon Bios, the most noteworthy
gymnast in the history of America, but you still to catch.
Now people say, well, he should have that kind of confidence.
I ain't mad at your confidence. I'm saying, what is
it about us as men that we can't acknowledge our women.
We go to church, they already defering to us, ain't
but five men in church, but they the deacon and

(45:47):
the pastor and the cleaner and everything and the trustee.
Because women understand the fragile psychology of black men who
have been emasculated in a white supremacist culture where another
patriarch is a threat to another patriarch, they then already
done that work. When I go out out here, and
I'm sure you two, both of y'all, when you go
out here and see black men's concerns being talked about,
Susan Taylor is at the front of the line, right. Uh,

(46:09):
black women are always speaking up for black men. I'm saying,
can we return the favor and what I mean by
the broader society in a world where black women have
been demonized, even the greatest of them have to be
told that no, the man you got is the catch
because you're living in a world where black women may
not have access to the greatest amount of black men
because of prison and choices and so on and so forth.

(46:31):
I'm just saying, bro, at the end of the day,
a little love, try a little tenderness.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
Yeah, I think it's All's.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Another example to me is like the relationship thing. Keep
that away from the strangers on social media. Let that
be an inside conversation y'all laugh and joke about amongst
each other's at dinner.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
As soon as you bring it to social media, stuff
like this happened.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
But but I think it's helpful. They might not care.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
It might be their relationship, they had jokes, their problem
with their situation had.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
I think it's hard not to kill when everybody jokes.

Speaker 1 (46:59):
Jokes grow out of social situations, grow out of social value.

Speaker 3 (47:03):
That's what they are, right, of course, because they reflect.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
If I start a light on my relationship with my wife,
people might think it's disrespectful, but it's me and my wife.

Speaker 3 (47:09):
We joke all the time. You know, you're a great example.

Speaker 4 (47:12):
And they put their book out and he said in
his book that he had made his wife orgasm in
a decade.

Speaker 3 (47:18):
Right, Yeah, but that's on him. He should have kept himselves.

Speaker 1 (47:21):
But that's on him. Women saying I didn't is a
hero because most big I hear you. Because I couldn't
do it for three years, I can do it for
seven years. He's saying, I'm the one that's But he's.

Speaker 4 (47:35):
Still made something public that he didn't have to make public.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
But the reason I made it public is because of
stories and conversations that I have with people when I
do my podcast, and just see if you don't read it.

Speaker 4 (47:44):
Wasn't the fact that I didn't make a come is
the fact that I couldn't.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Make it come sexually orally. I was good money.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
The problem was, and what I was trying to explain,
he can run his mouth. He can run his mouth.
Me and my wife and together since she was sixteen.

Speaker 2 (47:57):
And what I was saying is most men need to
have conversation, especially with this some because when I looked
at sex.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
I watched porn.

Speaker 2 (48:03):
So I used to go in there like bang bang
bang bang bang bang. It wasn't romantic, it wasn't physical.
I was trying to be a porn star and it
wasn't connecting. But once we figured that out, our relationship
became better.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
To these days.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
What I'm saying, but wait a minute, but see the
difference is his was a moment of vulnerability.

Speaker 3 (48:20):
Correct, My man's moment was a moment of mach mo.
Let's just be real.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
I mean, you can joke, but the joke is reflective
of a temperament, an idea, a politic, an ideology. And
I'm saying again that's their business. You're right, because I
ain't want to put my business out there because there's
plenty of failures and flaws for people to pick apart.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
My point is when I say game though, bruh.

Speaker 1 (48:41):
Even if you believe that respect your woman, elevate your woman,
understand that in a culture where she's already been demonized
as a dark skinned black woman, that could be deeply
and profoundly problematic as well.

Speaker 3 (48:52):
And it wasn't ten years. I wouldn't say that wasn't
ten years. You started to Michaelaeric Dyson, how you do?
It's just hilarious. How you doing?

Speaker 1 (49:04):
I'm good?

Speaker 3 (49:04):
I heard all the bank bank, bank, bank, bang, what's
going on?

Speaker 4 (49:09):
What's going on? Let's let's talk about Beyonce Man and
what she did with with with with Cowboy Carter?

Speaker 3 (49:16):
What do you? What do you? What does it significant?
You jumping? Did you come in case you heard something
that you wanted to say? No? I was like, what's
going on?

Speaker 1 (49:22):
At first I heard the Cantons owns and Trump, Angela Davis.

Speaker 3 (49:25):
You're talking about your father, and then it was like
a lot going on.

Speaker 1 (49:28):
Then I heard bank bank bank point.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
I'm like, what what's going on? Mister Marcus is in
the house.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
I'm sorry, can still but.

Speaker 4 (49:37):
Look what's the significance of what she has just done
with this cowboy carter out.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
It's incredible.

Speaker 1 (49:42):
First of all, she's reunited a constituency of country music
that has been alienated, like rock music. Black people right,
not only the banjo in the Caribbean and in North America.
Hearkening back with an ear to Africa, right, because it
wasn't a same thing. It didn't come over here untranslated.
We did stuff, We fiddled, no pun intended with it

(50:05):
to make it what it is today. So black people
have been in the country my daddy from the beginning.
My daddy was from George and mama from Alabama. We
listened to the country and Detroit I'm Proud to be
and Okie from Muscogee. We listening to people whose politics
were diametrically opposed to ours. I love a lot of
country people who, if they knew who I was, would

(50:28):
find me reprehensible. So we understood the power of the music.
Read Foley listening to this program, Hank Williams, Hey, good.

Speaker 3 (50:35):
Looking, what you got cooking? How's about cooking something up
with me?

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Right? We listened to that. We listened to George Jones,
he's stopped loving her today. Now we didn't see in
the song he stopped loving her because he was dead.
But that was an interesting thing. Or Lee Greenwood who
Donald Trump has made a bible based on his song,
So you know, I find him quite reprehensible, but his
music was powerful. He was talking about a woman who

(51:02):
cheated him. He said she had a ring on her finger,
be time on her hands. Damn, come on, bright, I mean,
come on, I mean or or the song. You know,
if I had killed you when I met you, I
would have been out jail by now. I mean.

Speaker 3 (51:12):
It's some great classics in there.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
What right, there's some there's some gangst the country.

Speaker 3 (51:17):
My point is, what what?

Speaker 1 (51:19):
What?

Speaker 3 (51:20):
What she did?

Speaker 1 (51:20):
What Beyonce did was reintroduced. Allow me to reintroduce myself.
Allow America to understand that country music, right, it's the
white blues and blues might be.

Speaker 3 (51:32):
The black country.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
It's a similar aperture, it's a similar appetite, it's a
similar perspective. And what she is introduced. She's from Houston.
What do you think she listened to Besides R and
B or soul and rock music and so on, she
listened to country music to black folk music. And what
she has done is introduce people to folks that they
never even knew before. The black girls backing her up,

(51:56):
Miss d you know, Britney Spencer, all of them. She
introduced the Linda Martel, who was a great singer and songwriter.
She introduces a black woman, She introduced her to him
to her. Think about Ray Charles. Ray Charles made an
album what Songs of a Country in Western? Right, sounds
of country and Western I'm getting the title wrong. But

(52:17):
the country establishment rejected him, and yet he gave a
greater audience to country music than it had for a
long time. Beyonce is doing the same thing, even th
when some people might try to hate on her. The
fact is she has made country cool as one of
the artists things again, and she's made it viable, and
she's made it controversial in the most productive fashion. That
is to say, she's forced people to consider what is country?

(52:40):
How do we define it? Is it Reba McIntyre? Is
it Dolly pardon? She flips Dolly pardon. No, I ain't
gonna say, hey, Joe Lean, you're taking my man. I'm
saying I'm threatening you. You bet not touch him, so
she adds her Beyonce moment. She says, this is not
a country album. It's a Beyonce album, which means I
am the impresario of my own musical taste. They can
include country music and I can dip down in it,

(53:02):
show you I can do it, and then dip out
and show you I can do other things. I think
what she's done is extraordinary. It's powerful, it's instructive, and again,
like she does with most of her music, it helps
us understand a history, an archive, a tradition, a trajectory,
and the power of what she represents is far more
than some sexy woman on the cover, even the cover
with the American flag right the blue being obscured because

(53:26):
of justice, as some have interpreted the blood flowing, her
ability to be vulnerable at the same time to lay
claim to what it means to be an American. She's courageous,
she's powerful, and that album is dope.

Speaker 4 (53:39):
We had Alex randelon and she said she said the
same thing about Rachel. She actually said, Beyonce is Ray
Charles's daughter, because she speaks about the first family of
Black country music.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
She said, for the same.

Speaker 4 (53:49):
Reason you said Ray Charles bought a brand new audience
to country music, made the audience bigger.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
Beyonce doing the same thing now she.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
Is, I mean, and even the black people like, why
are we doing that a cowboy head? Why she's doing
like a white folk that's you don't even understand. They
didn't white and ize Joe imagination so deep. You don't
understand what y'all gave to the to the art home.
And when I think about my friend Dennis sa Cher
and his lovely wife, uh, they are out here the cheres, uh,

(54:20):
you know.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Doing serious work. He's a cowboy champion.

Speaker 1 (54:23):
She's an articulate spokeswoman, uh for not only cosmetics, but
for country music. They started a radio you know. Uh
uh not a radio, but a music group. They started
their own record label. I mean, black people are doing
a lot of stuff. They're dead with Dick Bill Pickett.
I study these people in the fifth grade. My teacher

(54:44):
made us study them. There's a long tradition of black cowboys,
of black country artists, of people who've been doing stuff,
and yet we don't give them credit. And Beyonce has
single handedly resurrected like she did would Act one when
she delved into the history of dance right, you know,
dance and house music, and to show the gay esthetic

(55:04):
at the heart of that tradition, and now coming back
with the country stuff and showing how we've been involved
in it.

Speaker 3 (55:11):
Just the level of her genius is remarkable.

Speaker 4 (55:13):
I got one last question for you, because we talked
about male vulnerability. You know, we saw J Cole recently
apologize to Kendrick Lamar for some they was going back
and forth on a record, right. I didn't have no
problem with the apology. I feel like you know, if
you if it didn't sit well when he said he
didn't sit well with my spirit, I ain't got no nothing,
just talk about it didn't.

Speaker 3 (55:32):
Say well with his spirit? What do you think?

Speaker 1 (55:34):
No, I saw you you were bringing about that give
him the donkey other day out to people who don't
understand it. What's interesting to me is how Kendrick Lamar
has escaped all screw that. What's interesting to me is
that he started this stuff right. Why is it that
when both Drake and J Cole said with the Big Three,
they're giving you love, bro, they saying you partly bigg No,
it ain't no Big Three, it's Big me. Okay, I

(55:55):
get it. That's the bravado of hip hop and so on.
I think Kendrick Lamar in many ways is Pac as
he was Drake and Ja Cole as Poc as he
could have been. And that's the class right, the evolution
of Tupac. Right, he dies at what twenty five years old?
I mean what would he have been at fifty?

Speaker 3 (56:16):
Right?

Speaker 1 (56:17):
The level of genius he already possessed. Tupac was one
of the greatest intellectuals in the history of hip hop.
Off Mike, he was cold on the mic, Somebody wake me,
I'm dreaming, and started as a seed the semen swimming
upstream planeted in the womb while screaming on the top
was my pops, my mama, hollering, stopped from a single drop.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
This is what they got.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
Not to disrespect my people, but my papa was a loser,
only planning that for Mama was the effort and abuser.
And even as a seed, I could see his plan
for me, stranded on welfare, another broken family.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
He was dope. He would have to do together. You
know so many songs.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
We can do that.

Speaker 3 (56:50):
We can do that.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
But beyond that, his ability to explain, deconstruct and challenge politics.
And that's why he's still relevant because he was so powerful.
But he was also a Gemini, right or was he was? He? Yeah,
and he had a lot of going on in his
mind and he was he was provocative, he was viola

(57:13):
to I think he was out of control in many ways.
And that's why I think Kendrick Lamar had him narrate
right to Pimper Butterfly. Right, he's talking about Paca. I
have a conversation with pop. One of the greatest acts
of rhetorical appropriation in genius that is, uh, mister Kendrick
Lamar's to Pimper Butterfly. But that's why he's He's attracted
to that part of Tupac. I think j Cole and

(57:35):
Drake are the more mature expression of a Pac who
would see, you ain't got to kill everybody, you ain't
got to dog everybody, You ain't got to be better
than everybody. Even jay Z said when he's on that
song with with you know Lil Wayne my heir, so
here is my wife and I you know, come harder,
come faster, Why else?

Speaker 3 (57:55):
Why bother?

Speaker 1 (57:56):
It's right. The mature people, the ones who are in
control of that stuff. They ain't got a damn man,
because I know who I am. But Kendrick seems to
be obsessed, even though he's got a pulletzer, even though
he's brilliant, even though he's a genius. Even though I
do think Rolling Stone had it wrong though Jay z
won Kendrick two nds three, Yes, bro, you ain't got

(58:17):
enough work, right, and you've got great work. But the
work of Nids, the work of j that's on a
different order.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
So I'm saying Kendrick, it is too early.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
He's a genius, he's in He's one of the top
rappers ever. But I say all that to say, look,
I think Jake Cole was mature. He wasn't. It was
half hearted anyway, It's not my heart's not in it,
because he could have destroyed him further than more than
that he could have. J Cole is a surgeon with
those words, he's he's precise, He's surgical in his strikes.
Drake is a monster, right, Jake can't even responded. Maybe

(58:48):
he'll respond to the name, Maybe Jake Cole. I don't
think j Cole will. Maybe it with metro booming and
the future coming out again with their Deluxe. Maybe Kendrick has.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
More to say.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
I think you know, look, it was much sure to
say I'm not gonna take this in a negative fashion.
I don't even believe this guy because I love him
and appreciate him. That should Shane Kendrick. I don't think
it will. That should say to Kendrick, what am I
doing wrong? That three men who are great two of
them recognize me? But I have to be the only
one in the sandlot to play with the toys because

(59:21):
I'm the greatest. That's one way of talking about it.
But there are other ways of talking about masculinity. There
are other ways of talking about greatness. There are other
ways of speaking. Because Drake said he was the coldest,
j Cole said he was the coldest, and Kendrick said
he is the coldest. But they didn't do it at
the expense of you. They didn't name your name to
try to suggest that you are not the bell, whether
the benchmark or the standard by which hip hop should

(59:41):
be judged. So I think it's a little bit more
growing needs to be done by Kendrick Lamar to catch
up with his rhetorical genius, his psychological disposition, because, as
you said, well, when we look back, maybe four four
four and mister bigness Morell big Stepper, I mean to me,
Kingdom Come was a warm up for four four four
that got rejected unfairly. The only beef I've ever had

(01:00:04):
with jay Z is that put Kingdom Come higher on
your list of your own albums because it was a
mature effort. When we look at Drake's take care, when
we look at Maybe Even, nothing was ever the same.
I mean, j Cole, Drake and Kendrick have made ingenious
music and we ain't got to choose one over the other.
We can have personal preferences for sure, but I think

(01:00:25):
Kendrick Lamar needs to be challenged a little.

Speaker 3 (01:00:27):
Bit to grow up. All right, Well, there you have it.
Always a pleasure. I love Kendrick Lamar.

Speaker 1 (01:00:34):
What I'm saying, appreciate you for joining us, Thank you
all for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:00:37):
It's the Breakfast Club. Good morning, wake that ass up
in the morning. The Breakfast Club