July 18, 2023 • 52 mins
On episode 108 Seoul National University master's student An HaKyeng's joins hosts Andre Goulet in Montreal and Gennie Pimentel in Toronto for a conversation unpacking her research on the immigration experience for new arrivals, the challenges migrant workers face in South Korea, ethnonationalism, fertility rates, government policy and more.
Works cited in this episode:
Works cited in this episode:
- Immigration in Japan and Social Mobility: Policies and Implications - HaKyeng An, Henry Cho, Wakana Moriguchi
- Social capital and assimilation of migrant workers and foreign wives in South Korea: The case of Wongok community -
Jun Hee-jung Ha Seong-kyu - Creating hierarchies of noncitizens: race, gender,
and visa categories in South Korea - Erin Aeran Chung - The citizenship of foreign workers in South Korea - Seol Dong-hoon
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
You're listening to The Koreophile. I'mAndre Gule. The Creophile has been exploring
Korean society, culture and politics,and highlighting critical, independent voices you won't
find anywhere else since twenty fourteen.Find almost nine years of archived episodes,
including interviews with academics, activists,musicians, and more. Wherever you get
(00:26):
your podcasts, and you can supportthe show at patreon dot com slash the
Creophile and on this episode, ourguest research explores the immigration experience for new
arrivals in Korea and the challenges migrantworkers face in Japan, and her master's
thesis analyzes Chinese border policy. Shestudies at Soul National University and works part
(00:46):
time as a research lab translator thatan organization that focuses on refugees and the
relationships they have with their children.Co host and executive producer, Jenny Pimintel,
is in Toronto. Jenny, whydid you reach out to our guest
for this episode? Well, weboth follow each other on Instagram and I
know that right now she's currently workingon her masters, so she's really deep
(01:08):
in her research and she's also workingdirectly in the field alongside refugees in Korea,
and I thought we could learn alot from her, So that's why
I reached out and Hick Young joinsus from Soul today to explore immigration and
the migrant worker experienced in Korea.Hi Young, Welcome to the Korea File.
Hi, thank you so much forinviting me. Well, we're really
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excited to talk to you because it'sa topic that is pretty universal, with
the challenges that migrant workers face incountries as diverse as Korea and Canada.
Right, but before we get intothe topic today, we wanted to get
a little bit of background about youracademic work. Tell us how did you
first become interested in immigration and citizenshipin Korea. So, while I am
(01:55):
Korean, I was actually born andraised in China. So as far as
I remember, I had always beeninterested in the immigrant experience and displacement,
and it stemmed from my personal experienceof being a migrant myself. Like I
regularly visited the immigration office with myparents. I knew precisely what kind of
the sister were. All of thisjust I guess, shaped my worldview as
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I grew up, and I alsoactually grew up living with internal migrant workers
within China because my parents provided freehousing for them, and then in university,
when I came back to Korea,I started working at a law firm
that dealt with immigration issues as aresearch assistant. And this was kind of
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a critical moment for me where Irealized how deeply the immigration policies were rooted
in discrimination, whether it be raceor education, which I observe now is
a problem anywhere, but I thinkit's a problem especially in Korea. And
this is also when I learned aboutBenedict Anderson and his theory of imagic communities,
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and I began to really question whatit meant to be a citizen and
why certain immigration policies were in place. What is the theory of imagined communities?
Benedict Anderson is this anthropologist who theorizethat communities essentially are created within our
imagination. So it's not borders aren'tactually physically in place. We kind of
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imagine borders. And like when wethink about culture or you know, like
we always talk about how, oh, you know, we come a long
way, like this has been atradition for a long time, Like we
are this society with this set ofcertain set of like cultural practices or traditions
(03:50):
but all of this Benedict Anderson issaying are imagined, and I think it
really fits well with like the immigration, like the immigrant experience, right.
I love that, And that's sucha revolutionary way of looking at borders and
countries and things like that that wethink are so firm and concrete. And
so how about with the master's work, tell us more about that. So
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my master thesis, I don't know, like I'm hoping that it will be
this topic, but you know,like I'm still working on it, so
I'm not sure yet, but Ithink it's well. I hope it's going
to be about Chinese border policies.And again, the issue of migration is
at the heart of it, right, So rather than researching borders themselves,
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I am more interested in looking athow migrants that live in these border areas
interact with immigration policies and border checkpoints. And I'm also interested in the social
mobility of immigrants within culturally homogeneous countriessuch as Japan and Korea, which led
me to conduct a case study onJapan earlier this year. That's so fascinating,
(04:58):
Okay, I love that. Thankyou a little bit more about your
backgrounds before we get into some ofthe work you've been doing. So you
work as a translator in a researchlab and the lab supports immigrant families.
So what does that work look likeand what have you learned from the families
that you've been working with through yourexperience there. Yes, it's been I
(05:20):
think about four months since I startedworking with them, and I don't like
I'm not like a direct participant inthe research process. I'm just a translation
translator. But to just introduce whatkind of work they do, they focus
on the parenting experience of refugees inKorea, and I think this is so
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important because not only because it supportsimmigrants, specifically refugee families, but also
because it really helps us to understandthat refugees are just the same people as
you and me. Right, Sothe refugees that we talk to are just
parents that want to provide a safelife for their children. And I think
what a lot of people don't realizeis that these people are not just refugees
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or immigrants. I think we oftenmake the mistake of attributing a single identity
to them, which is reflected inthe lack of policies that support these families
and immigration policies I think shouldn't justbe about visas or working conditions, but
you know, also about education andhealthcare and all of that. And mobility
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isn't just about moving up the socialladder, but it is also about the
physical movement where the parents are ableto provide their children with a family vacation
or a safe walk in the park, extracurricular activities like swimming. So I
think talking about refugees in not ina way that characterizes them as refugees,
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but as parents, I think thatis so important. I love how that
can connect these sort of humanizing ofof these individuals with ideas like policy and
stuff, because I'm sure, aswe're going to get into policy doesn't always
really connect with that human side ofthe people behind the policy. Okay,
so let's begin by defining what doesit mean to be a migrant worker.
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The groups like obviously going to bediverse, and every person's going to have
a unique background, But generally speaking, what are migrant workers and why are
they integral? Why are they soimportant of a group or social class in
South Korea's day, So, migrantworkers are economic migrants who have moved from
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one place to another temporarily for jobopportunities. I think saying that they have
temporarily moved maybe a little controversial,but that definition is what Korean policies for
migrant workers are based on. Andso there are internal and international migrants,
and within international migrants who would havelike are they laborers, like are they
(08:03):
students? Like that, you wouldhave different categories, right, But I
think I'll be talking about international migrantworkers, who are specifically blue collar workers
from third world countries today on thisepisode because I think they're the most marginalized
group in Korean society, even thoughthere's such an important social class right now.
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And actually, historically speaking, Koreahas largely been ascending country, which
means that people have historically immigrated outsideof Korea, and in the twentieth century,
many of these Korean immigrants were constructionworkers, miners, and nurses,
the same blue collar workers that wesee well besides nurses, like construction workers
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and miners, they're the blue collarimmigration immigrant workers, blue collar immigrant workers
that come into Korea now. Andso some studies point to this as the
reason for the surgeon, the needfor international migrant workers to fill in those
gaps where people have emigrated outside ofKorea, and when we are talking about
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internal migration, it is also apretty big reason why international migrant workers have
become such an integral part of Koreansociety. And before talking about this,
like I would have to say thatSouth Korea is more of a city state
now, with more than half ofthe population in the capital city, Soul,
and so you see a lot ofshortage in manpower in low wage industries
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like the manufacturing sector just outside ofthe city and agriculture. It's just it's
truly remarkable how much manpower they lack. And right now, most of these
sectors are filled by international migrants.And I think I was reading the twenty
twenty one statistics and it's said thatone out of ten migrant workers work where
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eighty percent of the workforce are foreigners. So they just like most of these
sectors are just almost fully filled byinternational migrants. Now, when you say
Korea as a being more of acity state, now, I never thought
of it that way, but yes, there's like twenty five million people in
the greater Soul area and so that'slike truly the hub of the country,
(10:22):
and that leaves the villages and thesmaller towns like emptying out, especially in
terms of agriculture and stuff like that. And are these people like I remember
when I was living in Korea,like fifteen, ten years ago whatever,
there's lots of people who were ChineseKorean, right, and so that was
like a big part of the likeimmigrant migrant people in the city today.
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Does it look the same or isit other people from Southeast Asia? Where
where are people coming from? Ithink we still like, I think the
biggest try and Chinese, like theToolson Jolk they do you constitute the biggest
percentage of foreign population in Korea,I think still. But there are a
lot of African UM like workers andthere there's definitely a lot of Southeast Asian
(11:13):
like workers that work in UM workaround Korea. I don't know the exact
CITIX six for this, so Ican't say sure, yeah, okay,
yeah, I do think that theChinese, Koreans or tools Angel they do
there there's still a big population.Yeah, and you send your notes here
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that um it's important to remember thatforeigners and Korea still only make up about
four percent of the population. AndI would just say, as an aside
for a lot of listeners of thispodcast. Um, when people from the
West or people from North America Europego to teach English in Korea, we
tend to spend time with the samesorts of people, and so this is
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a very different sort of waygook right, like a very different sort of experience,
and so I'm just like really happyto get to explore that in this
conversation. So thank you for that. That's so interesting. Jenny. Can
you pick up on that. Yeah, Hi Young, you said you recently
conducted a case study on Japan,and I'd kind of like to bring in
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that research and insight. Even thoughthis is, you know, this show
is about Korea, I think it'sstill important. So you recently wrote a
paper titled Immigration in Japan and SocialMobility Policy and Implications, where you talked
about the main stages of Japanese immigration, the four stages being divided by the
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periods from nineteen forty five up untilnow, which pointed to different policies that
the Japanese government took to attract laborersfrom abroad to come and work in Japan.
And it sort of seems like theeconomy was a main driver of any
social policy changes that the Japanese governmentput in place, So what is the
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link between a country's economy and immigrationpolicy Overall? While there is a certain
stigma that immigrants steal jobs or whatnot, there are actually many studies that show
otherwise that immigrants contribute to economic developmentby filling gaps in the labor market and
enhanced competitiveness in industries. And inKorea, it's the same thing like people
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or the general public thinks that immigrantssteal their jobs, but actually in when
you think about it, international migrantsare so vital in Korea's economy because just
because of the shortage of manpower andsectors that require manual work also known as
three D, dirty, dangerous anddifficult jobs. And so I think it's
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really important to look at how thegovernment brings in international migrants because of economic
challenges within the country, but alsohow there's this contested viewpoint about like how
immigrants actually take away jobs or devaluecertain jobs, and how the real aspect
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of how they actually propel a country'seconomy, if that makes sense. And
in both Japan and in Korea,international migrants are we're seen as the solution
for not only covering for the shortagesand sectors that are the basis of the
economy, but also for cheaper laborto propel the economy further, just to
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interject for a second. And Ithink what's really interesting there is that the
reaction people have to immigrants and likequote unquote stealing our jobs, it's like
so tied into sort of late capitalismand like the neoliberal order. Um so
that like if if yeah, ifhundreds of thousands of people are coming in
and doing these sorts of jobs,there's so many other people who are like
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the more you know, traditional Koreanor whatever, and yeah, they're desperate,
right, Like there's so much desperationbecause um it's we don't have very
functional capitalist systems. So um yeah, so this this sort of contrasts with
that at the same time. Butyeah, so what about the governmental programs
in Japan and increate in Korea forum, how they concentrate on recruiting foreign labors
(15:33):
to tell us tell us more aboutthat. Yeah, definitely, Like,
uh, it's really interesting when youthink about it, because immigrants, like
most migrant workers work in different sectorsthat most Koreans work in, so like
they're not they're not even competing inthe same sector. But there's this stigma.
It's just really weird, I think, and I think like this idea
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of economic um my prints as aneconomic solution came from the earliest form of
immigration policy in Japan and Korea,where it was termed like technical intern Training
program and the Industrial Training program,where foreign laborers weren't considered as workers that
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enjoy the same rights and benefits asthe natives, but they were considered as
these third world these people from thirdworld countries would that would come into Korea
on a government contract that would learnthe trade in these manufacturing sectors, and
so you would think, like there'sobviously a big problem with exploitation, such
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as wages that fall lower than theminimum wage, and like I like to
think of it as an absolutely horribleinternship where you are working like all day
but with no zero pay and thehousing stocks even though the company almost do
housing and everything. And it happensbecause these programs really only work to attract
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these workers for a short term economicsolution, not as like it's not humane
at all. Right, this isthis like is identical to Canada system.
And so yeah, you have alot of people coming in and doing the
three D jobs and so like umYeah, it's it's hard work and the
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housing is inadequate, and there's apromise of potentially getting citizenship down the road,
but it doesn't, you know,always happen. It's grim okay.
But let's get to some other factorsthat are driving government interest in immigration,
and it's things like the fertility rate. And I'm kind of excited to talk
about this because it is an explosivelike issue that is really shifting Korea and
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what Krea is going to look likein the future, and how that connects
to things like the working age populationand how all those things affect labor force
participation. So South Korea's current fertilityrates low, like super low, and
it's lower than Japan's one point threebabies per person. Right South Koreas is
a zero point eight four, whichmeans that a woman in Krea has an
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average of zero point eight four babiesper capita over the course of their lifetimes,
and by comparison, in the USit's one point six four, in
China it's one point two eight.However, for the population of a country
to remain stable, they have tohave two point one So these changes really
drive the need for foreign labor ina country like South Korea, Like,
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how does that work? What aresome other factors that have caused Korea's labor
shortage? Yeah, what can youtell us about that? Yeah, the
fertility rate really caused us an alarmbecause the population started decreasing in twenty twenty
one, So it just means thatit's just not sustainable, he said.
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And meanwhile, our aging population isactually increasing, which causes even more labor
shortage as you can imagine, butalso bring about a need for more care
workers. So this besides the governmentproactively recruiting foreign brides as a solution for
the low birth rate, foreign workers, including these brides, are brought into
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the labor force as care workers.And as I said, with a massive
amount of internal migration to Soul fromrural areas, the rural areas are basically
empty, right, so this reallycalls for foreign labor. And I actually
worked on a farm last year fora brief period of time in Chungnam in
Korea, and many of the farmersthat I met were telling me that they
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really can't get anything done without migrantworkers working on their farms. And so
in these rural areas, foreign laboris just so needed and so I'm sorry.
So so for part of your researchgoing to work on a farm and
to get to know what that vibewas like, Oh no, that wasn't
a part of research. It wasjust I was super burnt out. So
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I took some time. There areactually government policies in Korea where they sent
they pay money to younger people togo to these farms to work, and
so I signed up for one ofthose programs, and I was just like,
know what, I'll quit studying fora while and just grow cabbages.
(20:30):
Not to trigger you with your recentresearch, because I know you're burnt out
for a while, but to kindof bring back that topic of migrant workers
in Japan, you bring up thisidea of ethno nationalism or nihonjin in Japanese,
which can be used as an impactfulframework to kind of look at who
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is considered a person or a citizenin Japan and who gets what jobs,
who gets what rights, that sortof thing. So similarly, in Korea,
this idea of one ethnicity, it'sreally been embraced for a very long
time, and the recent increase indiversity and changes in immigration policy have been
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challenging to Korean study in many waysand have challenged this idea of one ethnicity.
So, for instance, South Koreahas seen an increase in ethnic discrimination
due to cultural and language barriers,and an increase in employment discrimination in recent
years. So with such a largegroup of migrant workers living in a new
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country who struggle to assimilate based onthese cultural principles such as one ethnicity or
nijonzon, how is their social andeconomic well being and how is their life
in general affected? Answer it interms of Korea, So, Korea definitely
has this idea of one ethnicity similarto Japan, and I actually might even
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say that it's stronger than the ethnonationalism in Japan. And because of this,
many migrants go through discrimination, andparticularly those from Africa and Southeast Asia
because they look so different from USand there's just a lot of like really
racist discrimination against them, and anydiscrimination would clearly affect their quality of life
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right, And so in terms ofassimilation for these migrant workers, it really
depends on what they do for aliving, their visa and how much Korean
they know. And most migrant workersthat work blue collar jobs, they would
actually live in certain parts of Korea, for example, the city of Ansan
(22:47):
near Soul, Like it's a hugemanufacturing city and a lot of migrant workers
worked there. And as I saidbefore, these migrant workers often work where
eighty percent of their colleagues are migrantworkers. So it goes without saying that
Korea has these enclaves where the migrantworkers and Koreans don't really interact on a
(23:07):
daily basis. My first year inKorea in two thousand and six two thousand
and seven was teaching and living inAnsan, and I was living in one
of the new developments like subdivisions,and then four subway stops down was Ansan
station, where it was like,yeah, the most diverse place in Korea,
and so you know, we'd frequentlygo there for restaurants and stuff and
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it was super fascinating. But yeah, Ansan is a pretty special case.
So I've read this really interesting researchpaper about like how these enclaves work,
and it's a Korean research published backin two thousand and three by Han kongsu,
and to quota, he writes,in fact, the Korean society experienced
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by a migrant worker is limited inscope. Most of them cannot leave the
perimeter of their workplace. Most Koreansalso have little opportunity to encounter migrant workers
if they do not live in thearea where migrant workers work. In this
regard, some analyze that migrant workersexist as an imaginary idea for Koreans.
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It just I think it was writtentwenty years ago, but I think it
really encapsulates like this distinct, likereally clear division between the Native Koreans and
the migrant workers. And I thinkthis has become a little better in the
last twenty years, for sure,but it's still a big problem that much
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of what these blue collar migrant workersgo through is quite invisible to the larger
public. So we hear a lotof reports about physical abuse and inadequate housing
problems, lack of safety procedures,lack of education, and many of these
workers are not given health insurance,and there has been continues well the health
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insurance. It's actually a really bigproblem because you know, they are like,
according to the visa status, theyshould be given a health insurance,
but these companies like or they kindof go around, like maneuver through policies
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and not give their workers adequate healthinsurance. And for the housing, there
has been continuous allegations of workers beingforced into staying in plastic greenhouses that have
no heating or running water. It'sjust it's not really a house. It's
not really a great living situation.And these reports, there's so many of
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them, but they go unnoticed because, you know, the general public don't
interact with them. They they don'treally I don't think a lot of people
realize that they are real people inKorea. That's kind of disheartning to hear.
As a half Korean visiting Korea,I also kind of just experienced this
like, yeah, you know,mom, maybe Korean, and you know,
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you know all this stuff like thelanguage and the culture and the food,
but you're not you know, you'renot allowed to be imagine. I'm
not allowed into that imagine community.So I really wonder, like how hard
it must be for people who don'tspeak the language or aren't familiar with cultural
customs to like live in a societythat can be very isolating, and how
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that makes bad bosses be able totake advantage of the people who come to
work for them. There is onepositive change that is happening right now,
which is the new bill that changesto migrant worker employment at to be geared
towards human and labor rights. Imean, I don't think it's going to
change everything like radically, but it'sa start and maybe there's There has been
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also of movement towards creating a largerimmigration bureau that would be able to handle
a diverse range of policies outside ofjust you know, like visa paperwork.
So hopefully that will change. Andto kind of further this conversation into the
policy sort of sector, it's integralto look at the government's approach to the
(27:15):
immigration system. Right, So youargue in your paper that policy creates a
broad systematic web that influences social,political, and economic dynamics. So not
only are the policies surrounding work andjobs super important, but transportation, education,
and healthcare policies are They all intersectto show us the opportunities or the
(27:40):
disadvantages that are presented to both migrantworkers and citizens, but mainly migrant workers.
So in the case of Korea,how does current government policy reflect the
emerging need for migrant workers and howare they supported when they arrive. Additionally,
what are some of the main institutionalbarriers that migrant workers may face in
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Korea? So I set this earlier, But immigration policies in Korea are put
into place as short term economic solutions, right, Jenny set this, but
they really don't care about career developmentor like individual livelihood that these migrants take
on. And so migrants under thesepolicies, especially those from third world countries
(28:27):
under governmental contracts, are just seenas temporary workers. And they really don't
enjoy any safety nets or support systemwithin Korea, or at least in Korea
that is provided by the government,I guess, And so once they enter
Korea, there aren't other policies youmentioned transportation, education, and healthcare policies
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that really help these migrants to staygrounded in Korea, and general immigrant issues
and refugees issues are kind of different, at least in Korea because of the
different visas that allow them to docertain things such as work. You know,
people on the process of getting theirrefugee status are only given temporary visas
as short as like two months,so they cannot work. But regardless,
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what I see coming up repeatedly duringthe interviews I sit in is the fact
that a lot of the refugees havea hard time visiting the hospital because they
don't have the financial means to doso nor speak the language. And with
the language aspect, the government doesoffer classes, but many of them,
many of the refugees that we talkedto, didn't really know about them because
(29:37):
it wasn't thoroughly advertised. So there'sa certain barrier when it comes to information,
which I feel is a similar barrierto similar barrier that a migrant worker
might experience. And although I've onlyreally been focusing on migrant workers, there
are a lot of things to besaid about their families that they bring to
(29:59):
Korea, right, actually Korean especiallychildren. Any discrimination or institutional barriers parents
face really affects of children obviously,and I have to look into the exact
numbers for Korea. But in Japan'scase, when I was researching, there
had been studies that show a decreasein intragenerational education mobility among migrants. So
(30:22):
if a parent has a high schoolgraduate high school degree, their children may
also have a high school degree orlower, but not really higher. Like
it's really sad when you think aboutit, Like, can usually migrants come
to Korea to offer, like providetheir children better lives, but it's not
really happening. Yeah, it's it'sreally interesting. It's definitely heartbreaking though,
(30:45):
but yeah, thank you for that. We have a few more questions before
we begin to wrap up, andwe want to talk about this twenty fifteen
paper which was called Social Capital andAssimilation of Migrant Workers and Foreign Wives in
Korea, and it talked about theconcept of social capital and it's explained as
assimilation into the economy and general societythrough social integration. And this can look
(31:10):
like anything from language acquisition to theability to make connections outside of work.
But according to the paper, theprevailance is pretty low in communities with a
large immigrant population because of the lackof supportive institutions. So have you noticed
any independent practices in these communities.Are they able to build their own capacity,
(31:33):
their own institutions, their own networks, or do they end up becoming
too disenfranchised because there's no support,not enough support from the government. This
is actually such a like, suchan interesting question. I love this question,
and I can't answer for immigrant communitiesoutside of Soul, but I have
(31:53):
definitely noticed that informal networks are superimportant for immigrants, which is why the
Etawan area. I don't know ifeither of you or any of the listeners
have been there, but it's sovital for immigrants because it's a place where
they not only find friends, butpursue their religious activities, find work opportunities,
(32:15):
seek help when a crisis secures,etc. You know, like a
lot of Korean websites or news they'renot really immigrants can't really get access to
that easily. So when they arein the Etawan area, they are able
to find and information that is reallythat is really helpful for them. And
(32:39):
I find that the mosque in thearea, which is actually the only mosque
in Korea, works as a separatesupport system that you know, like they
offer childcare system childcare for migrant workers, and they have like after school like
after school clubs for the children togo two and everything. And there are
(33:01):
also Christian churches and other NGOs thatprovide education or financial help and most importantly
medical service, especially for those whohave overstayed their visa and cannot really seek
any help from the government because thegovernment sees them as illegal immigrants. And
other than this external help, though, I sent a lot of agency and
(33:24):
active will, if you say,to really create a home in a country
that in many cases works against them. In a lot of these refugees or
immigrants that I meet. I wasthinking about the mosque as well when when
before you mentioned it, and thenI was thinking of like the vibe of
(33:45):
it's wan when I was living therein like the mid Auts or whatever to
late Oughts, like you know,weird vibe, right because the soldiers,
the American soldiers are everywhere, likeit's gross. But because of that bubble,
it allowed for these other sorts ofspaces to strengthen right and become spaces
where people were connecting from migrant communities. And so what that would look like
(34:08):
today and moving forward will be reallyinteresting because it's like a kind of special
space insol that is very very differentthan and lots of other neighborhoods. Okay,
So, Jenny, you wanted toget on the idea of bridging and
this concept of bridging, I'm reallyexcited to hear more about this. Yeah,
(34:30):
it kind of relates to the ideaof having power within your own kind
of like built community, building communitieswithin the larger like Korean society. So
this idea of bridging, when Iwas reading into it, it kind of
(34:51):
applied more to interracial marriages rather thanthe experience of migrant workers. But it's
essentially this idea of an exercise ofsocial capital that brings ideas and information and
consensus together when ethnically and culturally diversegroups come together. For example, on
a smaller scale, this bridging isdone in the Korean home by bringing in
(35:15):
a foreign bride who would then teachher child a different language, cook different
types of food and all that.And I just find this idea really interesting
because you know, in this discourseof migrant workers, where it often highlights
the isolation and disenfranchisement of foreign brides, it almost acknowledges that being from a
(35:38):
different country can actually inherently give yousome social capital. So my question to
this is do you think that wecan insinuate that individual families can have an
impact on the overall experience of immigrantintegration or is this bridging concept just an
(35:58):
academic approach. I do think thatethnically diverse families have a positive impact on
overall immigration, immigrants integration, overallimmigrants integration, there is a certain aspect
in Korea where because it's so ethnicallyhomogeneous, and because it's so important too,
(36:22):
I guess for the people to kindof keep that keep that myth going
on, like continue that myth ofthis ethnically homogeneous country. They really push
for these like interracial Koreans, Koreanchildren, or these families to fit in
(36:49):
with the larger crowd. So likeI see a lot of immigrant children or
interracial children not really embracing the cultureof their parents, like their mothers especially,
and so that is a really sadaspect of this. But overall I
(37:13):
think it does. I think ethnicallydiverse families in the long run does have
a positive impact on the larger Koreansociety. Of course, like the government
would have to play the biggest role, but Korean society has slowly come to
embrace the fact that Korea is notreally an ethnically homogeneous country anymore. Like
(37:34):
you know, they have these dailyinteraction with these families and like especially like
in schools, like these children areregularly they're being being raised with like many
more racially diverse children. And soin this really slow process, I think
(37:55):
there is a positive these families arebringing positive influence and so on an individual
level. Yes, it is certainlya bottom up process when you think about
it this way, And I alsosee a lot more media representation of interracial
marriages now and or any stories morepositive portrayals of migrant workers. Korea has
(38:22):
also had an ethnically Filipino member ofthe National Assembly, which is huge.
She received citizenship through marriage and isstill working towards claiming rights for migrants and
migrant children. So like, it'sa really slow process, but there is
a is definitely like this bridging thathappens. That's extraordinary. I didn't know
(38:44):
that, And yeah, so it'sit's probably important to remember that these are
you know, very early days insort of moving forward and finding justice for
the people who are you know,experiencing lives as migrant workers and refugees in
South Korea. So let's wrap upwith a final question, which is about
visas, which play a crucial rolewhen it comes to working in a foreign
(39:07):
country. Right they're granted on specificcategories that are accessible and tailored to individual
situations, and according to an articlepublished in the Journal of Ethnic and Migration
Studies in twenty nineteen, visa categorieshave a significant impact on residency status,
on rights, and on mobility withinthe host country, and even the potential
(39:30):
for acquiring citizenship. So in simpleterms, a migrants rights are largely determined
by the type of visa they hold, and the issuance of the visas typically
favor individuals with something specific in termsof president credentials and experience, which will
increase their chances of getting the visa. But there's probably also racial and gender
(39:52):
discrimination in visa issuance, right,So, considering this perspective, do you
think that the approach of the Koreangovernment towards immigration has been discriminatory or does
it and does it favor some workersover others. So again with this question,
we are coming back to the Koreangovernment implementing immigration policies that really only
(40:15):
think about the economic sides of things, and so these visas that are provided
are first and foremost about the levelof skill set or the education the individuals
have. We talked about the traineeprogram, where people labeled as unskilled have
to work receiving less than minimum wageunder the pretense that they are being trained.
Right. And on the other hand, however, Korea offers a side
(40:38):
door policy where individuals that have amaster's or a doctorate in the sciences and
technology are able to fast track theircitizenship process. I mean, I wouldn't
say that this policy is unfair becausemost countries, like you said, even
Canada has this, like they usuallydifferentiate visas this way, favoring those who
(40:59):
can, at least in the governmentof the at least in the eyes of
the government, benefit the country insome kind of way. And for instance,
like the US provides an H oneB visa for professionals as well.
I can't see how it is definitelylike how it can be classist and even
(41:22):
racist as it's not evident what theircriteria really look like since not all individuals
with higher education are admitted to thiscategory obviously, and like you could ask
questions like which country are the mostare most of these individuals from and from
which universities that they graduate? Iwould guess that it's mostly from like Western
(41:45):
countries with like yeah, like it'sprobably not going to be heared towards like
their world countries in Southeast Asia.And how does this discrimination extend from the
visa categories to the quality of lifethat migrant workers experience once they actually enter
and living Korea. I am goingto go back to the blue collar workers,
(42:06):
but so a lot of them areunder the employment permit system that are
tied to their workplace. So Jennytalked about this right, and so while
they are granted basic labor rights,there are just so many instances where the
company takes advantage of them. Theyleverage the fact that when they fire the
immigrant worker, the migrant has nochoice but to leave the country. And
(42:28):
most of these migrant workers under thesefeasts, I've had a worry, Hey,
a lot of money to the brokersin the first place to get a
job in a visa. So theyare in so much debt when they first
enter Korea, and that it hastaken advantage of by the companies that they
worked for. Jenny mentioned earlier theethno nationalism how it dictates, dictates who
(42:50):
is considered a Japanese in Japan,right, and who is considered a fellow
citizen, a native if you will. And so in Japan there is immigration
policy directed at remitting Japanese resilience whoare called nik in Japan, and they
are usually given limited citizenship and usuallythey work, usually in the manufacturing sectors.
(43:15):
And Korea offers a similar quasi dualcitizenship rights for coethnics such as Chisando.
And if I remember correctly, Ithink you guys did an episode on
the ethnic hierarchy and Chando back intwenty eighteen. Right, Yeah, when
I was producing this show with KoreaExpose, I spoke with Eddie Park and
(43:37):
he had been doing some investigative reportingfrom the Korean Autonomous Prefecture in Yambion and
China, and so, yeah,listeners can definitely go back and scroll back
about three years worth of episodes todefinitely definitely listen to that one. But
yeah, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah, yeah, I was like
looking through your episodes and I waslike, yeah, this is this definitely
(43:58):
is in line with what I'm gonnatalk about today, and so like,
up to two thousand and three,the citizenship right was only directed to those
who migrated out of Korea after nineteenforty eight, so it really only targeted
Korean Americans who, based on theOverseas Korean Act, were prohibited to work
in manual labor. And on theother hand, Korean, Chinese and other
(44:22):
co ethnic cities from like say Ciscountries who were mostly employed in the manufacturing
sector through the H two working Visa, which didn't really provide them with enough
for renewals for them to gain citizenship. If I remember correctly, like they
last like two months of their entirestay in the time of stay in Korea
(44:46):
to gain citizenship. And so thereis this really distinct division between Korean Americans
and Korean Chinese, creating a hierarchybetween the coethnicmigrants based on how developed their
country of origin was. And Ijust I wonder if I wonder who was
pulling those strings, right, becauseif this was back like which era of
(45:07):
government in South Korea, how werethey influenced by Uncle Sam sort of like
leaning in with with opinions and so, you know, not to be conspiratorial,
but it's not like Korea exactly hadgood governments through the fifty sixties,
seventies and eighties. Um. Andso this, right, this hierarchy between
the co ethnic migrants is really interesting. I never thought about that before.
(45:28):
But I just want to ask whatis CIS countries? Well, so CIS
countries are countries that were originally underthe Soviet Union, Russian Russian countries,
okay, under that influence okay.And then finally what about for gender um?
What about that? Um? Sofor gender um? I guess it's
(45:49):
really weird when you think about it, when because our government worked literally as
a marriage broker providing foreign rice forKorean men. And it's there's definitely super
controversial when you think about its.Yeah, these foreign brides aren't really considered
human when you think about it.They're being sold to these Korean men.
(46:10):
And like other than that, thereis also a category for artists artists quoted
where predominantly women migrant workers. Theyreceive an E six visa and end up
working in clubs, bars and evenread districts in Korea. And I've read
(46:30):
an interesting research paper that looked intohow the E six visa further divides into
racial categories. So as for theChinese, they often go into care work
and other service sectors because they lookmore similar to the native Koreans and can
usually speak more Korean. And thosefrom Russia or like the Soviet Union countries,
(46:51):
they work in bars or casinos,especially near the US Army base because
they look foreign and you can usuallyspeak English. And I think them looking
for and is more important. Andum, yeah, I just want to
point out that there's some really excellentresearch being done on the sort of like,
um, military, the culture,the communities that grow up around American
(47:13):
military bases, and uh, thethe you know and and what what that
was like? Uh in soul inin in other in other parts of the
country. Bridget Martin. Um.I used to play music with her in
Soul back in the um back whenI lived there fifteen years ago, and
she now is a wonderful researcher andso um yeah, definitely check out those
(47:34):
episodes as well. That episode inthe Creophile Archives is Militarism, Development and
the Mixed Legacy of Souls Young SanGarrison from twenty eighteen. UM. So,
this has been so interesting and andI guess for listeners who want to
know more about this topic, whatare things they could check out to to
be able to read or listen orwatch more about to find out more about
(48:00):
migrant work in South Korea. I'mgonna recommend two things, but both of
these are Korean and so I Ireally recommend it to anyone who knows Korean,
but unfortunately there aren't any Korean translation. But there is one book called
get Niptungi but by Utsunhi about migrantworkers in the agricultural sector, and it's
(48:22):
a phenomenal book that came out lastyear. Um. I really recommend for
anyone to check it out. Andthere is also um This movie is by
a really famous Korean director. Idon't know. I think a lot of
the listeners would know him, butyeah, I was like he who famously
(48:45):
did Old Boy and Sympathy from MisterVengeance, Sympathy for Lady Vengeance. His
recent film in english's Decision to Leave. I think in Korean it's like the
Breakup or something. It's like sogreat, it's so good. But yes,
he's kind of one of the twobig internationally renowned directors along with Bungeing
Health. So what about parts onwhich which film of his? So it's
(49:19):
a really short film called Never EndingPeace and Love in English, it's in
Korean it's it's Ko and it talksabout this name um Uh, this Nepal
um migrant worker called Chandra Uh whocan't really speak Korean and she like in
(49:43):
a really I don't really want tospoil the movie, but it's Uh.
It revolves around her being incarcerated inum medical like a mental facility in Korea
because she can't speak Korean, andit just it really revolves around how how
much discrimination these migrants faced just becausethey don't know Korean. And it is
(50:10):
based on a true story, andit's only twenty seven minutes long, and
I think from my memory there's nota lot of Korean. It's it's mostly
like you just watch, there's nota lot of what do you call it?
Like, Yeah, there's not alot of dialogue. So I think
(50:30):
a lot of like people who don'tspeak Korean would be able to understand the
movie. Yeah, even if there'sno subtitles or I feel like the lack
of dialogue might be intentional as well, just because you know, as someone
with a language barrier, you're fairlyable to speak, verily able to communicate.
So everything is you know, interpretingbody language, interpreting the situation.
(50:53):
So that's really interesting. I willdefinitely check that out and we'll try to
track it down and put a linkto that in the show notes. Thank
you for that recommendation. An haakYoung's research focuses on the immigration experience for
new arrivals in South Korea, thechallenges migrant workers face in Japan, and
Chinese border policy. Hi, thiswas such a fascinating conversation. Thank you
(51:15):
so much for joining us and sharingabout all of your research with us today.
Yeah, thank you. Thanks verywonderful having you on the show.
I had a great time. Thankyou so much. And that's episode one
(51:37):
hundred and eight of The Korea File. Check out my other work, including
my progressive politics interview show Unpacking theNews, at Canada's number one politically progressive
podcast network, Harbinger Media. Findout more about our community of more than
fifty left politics shows at Harbinger Medianetwork dot com and follow me on Twitter
at Andre MARGULEA special thanks to executiveproducer and researcher Jenny Pimontel for her work
(52:00):
on this episode. Thank you somuch. Listeners. You can find me
on Twitter at Babe Jenny. TheCreophile has been exploring Korean society, culture,
and politics since August twenty fourteen,and support from listeners like you helps
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few bucks a month to support theshow, go to Patreon dot com Slash
the Creophile. Thanks watch for ournext episode in late twenty twenty three.
(52:22):
Until then, I'm Andre Gouler andI'm Jenny Qantal. Thanks for listening.
You're listening to The Koreophile. I'mAndre Gule. The Creophile has been exploring
Korean society, culture and politics,and highlighting critical, independent voices you won't
find anywhere else since twenty fourteen.Find almost nine years of archived episodes,
including interviews with academics, activists,musicians, and more. Wherever you get
(00:26):
your podcasts, and you can supportthe show at patreon dot com slash the
Creophile and on this episode, ourguest research explores the immigration experience for new
arrivals in Korea and the challenges migrantworkers face in Japan, and her master's
thesis analyzes Chinese border policy. Shestudies at Soul National University and works part
(00:46):
time as a research lab translator thatan organization that focuses on refugees and the
relationships they have with their children.Co host and executive producer, Jenny Pimintel,
is in Toronto. Jenny, whydid you reach out to our guest
for this episode? Well, weboth follow each other on Instagram and I
know that right now she's currently workingon her masters, so she's really deep
(01:08):
in her research and she's also workingdirectly in the field alongside refugees in Korea,
and I thought we could learn alot from her, So that's why
I reached out and Hick Young joinsus from Soul today to explore immigration and
the migrant worker experienced in Korea.Hi Young, Welcome to the Korea File.
Hi, thank you so much forinviting me. Well, we're really
(01:29):
excited to talk to you because it'sa topic that is pretty universal, with
the challenges that migrant workers face incountries as diverse as Korea and Canada.
Right, but before we get intothe topic today, we wanted to get
a little bit of background about youracademic work. Tell us how did you
first become interested in immigration and citizenshipin Korea. So, while I am
(01:55):
Korean, I was actually born andraised in China. So as far as
I remember, I had always beeninterested in the immigrant experience and displacement,
and it stemmed from my personal experienceof being a migrant myself. Like I
regularly visited the immigration office with myparents. I knew precisely what kind of
the sister were. All of thisjust I guess, shaped my worldview as
(02:20):
I grew up, and I alsoactually grew up living with internal migrant workers
within China because my parents provided freehousing for them, and then in university,
when I came back to Korea,I started working at a law firm
that dealt with immigration issues as aresearch assistant. And this was kind of
(02:42):
a critical moment for me where Irealized how deeply the immigration policies were rooted
in discrimination, whether it be raceor education, which I observe now is
a problem anywhere, but I thinkit's a problem especially in Korea. And
this is also when I learned aboutBenedict Anderson and his theory of imagic communities,
(03:05):
and I began to really question whatit meant to be a citizen and
why certain immigration policies were in place. What is the theory of imagined communities?
Benedict Anderson is this anthropologist who theorizethat communities essentially are created within our
imagination. So it's not borders aren'tactually physically in place. We kind of
(03:27):
imagine borders. And like when wethink about culture or you know, like
we always talk about how, oh, you know, we come a long
way, like this has been atradition for a long time, Like we
are this society with this set ofcertain set of like cultural practices or traditions
(03:50):
but all of this Benedict Anderson issaying are imagined, and I think it
really fits well with like the immigration, like the immigrant experience, right.
I love that, And that's sucha revolutionary way of looking at borders and
countries and things like that that wethink are so firm and concrete. And
so how about with the master's work, tell us more about that. So
(04:12):
my master thesis, I don't know, like I'm hoping that it will be
this topic, but you know,like I'm still working on it, so
I'm not sure yet, but Ithink it's well. I hope it's going
to be about Chinese border policies.And again, the issue of migration is
at the heart of it, right, So rather than researching borders themselves,
(04:34):
I am more interested in looking athow migrants that live in these border areas
interact with immigration policies and border checkpoints. And I'm also interested in the social
mobility of immigrants within culturally homogeneous countriessuch as Japan and Korea, which led
me to conduct a case study onJapan earlier this year. That's so fascinating,
(04:58):
Okay, I love that. Thankyou a little bit more about your
backgrounds before we get into some ofthe work you've been doing. So you
work as a translator in a researchlab and the lab supports immigrant families.
So what does that work look likeand what have you learned from the families
that you've been working with through yourexperience there. Yes, it's been I
(05:20):
think about four months since I startedworking with them, and I don't like
I'm not like a direct participant inthe research process. I'm just a translation
translator. But to just introduce whatkind of work they do, they focus
on the parenting experience of refugees inKorea, and I think this is so
(05:41):
important because not only because it supportsimmigrants, specifically refugee families, but also
because it really helps us to understandthat refugees are just the same people as
you and me. Right, Sothe refugees that we talk to are just
parents that want to provide a safelife for their children. And I think
what a lot of people don't realizeis that these people are not just refugees
(06:04):
or immigrants. I think we oftenmake the mistake of attributing a single identity
to them, which is reflected inthe lack of policies that support these families
and immigration policies I think shouldn't justbe about visas or working conditions, but
you know, also about education andhealthcare and all of that. And mobility
(06:28):
isn't just about moving up the socialladder, but it is also about the
physical movement where the parents are ableto provide their children with a family vacation
or a safe walk in the park, extracurricular activities like swimming. So I
think talking about refugees in not ina way that characterizes them as refugees,
(06:53):
but as parents, I think thatis so important. I love how that
can connect these sort of humanizing ofof these individuals with ideas like policy and
stuff, because I'm sure, aswe're going to get into policy doesn't always
really connect with that human side ofthe people behind the policy. Okay,
so let's begin by defining what doesit mean to be a migrant worker.
(07:16):
The groups like obviously going to bediverse, and every person's going to have
a unique background, But generally speaking, what are migrant workers and why are
they integral? Why are they soimportant of a group or social class in
South Korea's day, So, migrantworkers are economic migrants who have moved from
(07:39):
one place to another temporarily for jobopportunities. I think saying that they have
temporarily moved maybe a little controversial,but that definition is what Korean policies for
migrant workers are based on. Andso there are internal and international migrants,
and within international migrants who would havelike are they laborers, like are they
(08:03):
students? Like that, you wouldhave different categories, right, But I
think I'll be talking about international migrantworkers, who are specifically blue collar workers
from third world countries today on thisepisode because I think they're the most marginalized
group in Korean society, even thoughthere's such an important social class right now.
(08:26):
And actually, historically speaking, Koreahas largely been ascending country, which
means that people have historically immigrated outsideof Korea, and in the twentieth century,
many of these Korean immigrants were constructionworkers, miners, and nurses,
the same blue collar workers that wesee well besides nurses, like construction workers
(08:48):
and miners, they're the blue collarimmigration immigrant workers, blue collar immigrant workers
that come into Korea now. Andso some studies point to this as the
reason for the surgeon, the needfor international migrant workers to fill in those
gaps where people have emigrated outside ofKorea, and when we are talking about
(09:13):
internal migration, it is also apretty big reason why international migrant workers have
become such an integral part of Koreansociety. And before talking about this,
like I would have to say thatSouth Korea is more of a city state
now, with more than half ofthe population in the capital city, Soul,
and so you see a lot ofshortage in manpower in low wage industries
(09:39):
like the manufacturing sector just outside ofthe city and agriculture. It's just it's
truly remarkable how much manpower they lack. And right now, most of these
sectors are filled by international migrants.And I think I was reading the twenty
twenty one statistics and it's said thatone out of ten migrant workers work where
(10:01):
eighty percent of the workforce are foreigners. So they just like most of these
sectors are just almost fully filled byinternational migrants. Now, when you say
Korea as a being more of acity state, now, I never thought
of it that way, but yes, there's like twenty five million people in
the greater Soul area and so that'slike truly the hub of the country,
(10:22):
and that leaves the villages and thesmaller towns like emptying out, especially in
terms of agriculture and stuff like that. And are these people like I remember
when I was living in Korea,like fifteen, ten years ago whatever,
there's lots of people who were ChineseKorean, right, and so that was
like a big part of the likeimmigrant migrant people in the city today.
(10:46):
Does it look the same or isit other people from Southeast Asia? Where
where are people coming from? Ithink we still like, I think the
biggest try and Chinese, like theToolson Jolk they do you constitute the biggest
percentage of foreign population in Korea,I think still. But there are a
lot of African UM like workers andthere there's definitely a lot of Southeast Asian
(11:13):
like workers that work in UM workaround Korea. I don't know the exact
CITIX six for this, so Ican't say sure, yeah, okay,
yeah, I do think that theChinese, Koreans or tools Angel they do
there there's still a big population.Yeah, and you send your notes here
(11:37):
that um it's important to remember thatforeigners and Korea still only make up about
four percent of the population. AndI would just say, as an aside
for a lot of listeners of thispodcast. Um, when people from the
West or people from North America Europego to teach English in Korea, we
tend to spend time with the samesorts of people, and so this is
(12:00):
a very different sort of waygook right, like a very different sort of experience,
and so I'm just like really happyto get to explore that in this
conversation. So thank you for that. That's so interesting. Jenny. Can
you pick up on that. Yeah, Hi Young, you said you recently
conducted a case study on Japan,and I'd kind of like to bring in
(12:22):
that research and insight. Even thoughthis is, you know, this show
is about Korea, I think it'sstill important. So you recently wrote a
paper titled Immigration in Japan and SocialMobility Policy and Implications, where you talked
about the main stages of Japanese immigration, the four stages being divided by the
(12:43):
periods from nineteen forty five up untilnow, which pointed to different policies that
the Japanese government took to attract laborersfrom abroad to come and work in Japan.
And it sort of seems like theeconomy was a main driver of any
social policy changes that the Japanese governmentput in place, So what is the
(13:05):
link between a country's economy and immigrationpolicy Overall? While there is a certain
stigma that immigrants steal jobs or whatnot, there are actually many studies that show
otherwise that immigrants contribute to economic developmentby filling gaps in the labor market and
enhanced competitiveness in industries. And inKorea, it's the same thing like people
(13:33):
or the general public thinks that immigrantssteal their jobs, but actually in when
you think about it, international migrantsare so vital in Korea's economy because just
because of the shortage of manpower andsectors that require manual work also known as
three D, dirty, dangerous anddifficult jobs. And so I think it's
(13:56):
really important to look at how thegovernment brings in international migrants because of economic
challenges within the country, but alsohow there's this contested viewpoint about like how
immigrants actually take away jobs or devaluecertain jobs, and how the real aspect
(14:24):
of how they actually propel a country'seconomy, if that makes sense. And
in both Japan and in Korea,international migrants are we're seen as the solution
for not only covering for the shortagesand sectors that are the basis of the
economy, but also for cheaper laborto propel the economy further, just to
(14:46):
interject for a second. And Ithink what's really interesting there is that the
reaction people have to immigrants and likequote unquote stealing our jobs, it's like
so tied into sort of late capitalismand like the neoliberal order. Um so
that like if if yeah, ifhundreds of thousands of people are coming in
and doing these sorts of jobs,there's so many other people who are like
(15:09):
the more you know, traditional Koreanor whatever, and yeah, they're desperate,
right, Like there's so much desperationbecause um it's we don't have very
functional capitalist systems. So um yeah, so this this sort of contrasts with
that at the same time. Butyeah, so what about the governmental programs
in Japan and increate in Korea forum, how they concentrate on recruiting foreign labors
(15:33):
to tell us tell us more aboutthat. Yeah, definitely, Like,
uh, it's really interesting when youthink about it, because immigrants, like
most migrant workers work in different sectorsthat most Koreans work in, so like
they're not they're not even competing inthe same sector. But there's this stigma.
It's just really weird, I think, and I think like this idea
(15:56):
of economic um my prints as aneconomic solution came from the earliest form of
immigration policy in Japan and Korea,where it was termed like technical intern Training
program and the Industrial Training program,where foreign laborers weren't considered as workers that
(16:18):
enjoy the same rights and benefits asthe natives, but they were considered as
these third world these people from thirdworld countries would that would come into Korea
on a government contract that would learnthe trade in these manufacturing sectors, and
so you would think, like there'sobviously a big problem with exploitation, such
(16:42):
as wages that fall lower than theminimum wage, and like I like to
think of it as an absolutely horribleinternship where you are working like all day
but with no zero pay and thehousing stocks even though the company almost do
housing and everything. And it happensbecause these programs really only work to attract
(17:07):
these workers for a short term economicsolution, not as like it's not humane
at all. Right, this isthis like is identical to Canada system.
And so yeah, you have alot of people coming in and doing the
three D jobs and so like umYeah, it's it's hard work and the
(17:30):
housing is inadequate, and there's apromise of potentially getting citizenship down the road,
but it doesn't, you know,always happen. It's grim okay.
But let's get to some other factorsthat are driving government interest in immigration,
and it's things like the fertility rate. And I'm kind of excited to talk
about this because it is an explosivelike issue that is really shifting Korea and
(17:52):
what Krea is going to look likein the future, and how that connects
to things like the working age populationand how all those things affect labor force
participation. So South Korea's current fertilityrates low, like super low, and
it's lower than Japan's one point threebabies per person. Right South Koreas is
a zero point eight four, whichmeans that a woman in Krea has an
(18:15):
average of zero point eight four babiesper capita over the course of their lifetimes,
and by comparison, in the USit's one point six four, in
China it's one point two eight.However, for the population of a country
to remain stable, they have tohave two point one So these changes really
drive the need for foreign labor ina country like South Korea, Like,
(18:40):
how does that work? What aresome other factors that have caused Korea's labor
shortage? Yeah, what can youtell us about that? Yeah, the
fertility rate really caused us an alarmbecause the population started decreasing in twenty twenty
one, So it just means thatit's just not sustainable, he said.
(19:00):
And meanwhile, our aging population isactually increasing, which causes even more labor
shortage as you can imagine, butalso bring about a need for more care
workers. So this besides the governmentproactively recruiting foreign brides as a solution for
the low birth rate, foreign workers, including these brides, are brought into
(19:22):
the labor force as care workers.And as I said, with a massive
amount of internal migration to Soul fromrural areas, the rural areas are basically
empty, right, so this reallycalls for foreign labor. And I actually
worked on a farm last year fora brief period of time in Chungnam in
Korea, and many of the farmersthat I met were telling me that they
(19:47):
really can't get anything done without migrantworkers working on their farms. And so
in these rural areas, foreign laboris just so needed and so I'm sorry.
So so for part of your researchgoing to work on a farm and
to get to know what that vibewas like, Oh no, that wasn't
a part of research. It wasjust I was super burnt out. So
(20:07):
I took some time. There areactually government policies in Korea where they sent
they pay money to younger people togo to these farms to work, and
so I signed up for one ofthose programs, and I was just like,
know what, I'll quit studying fora while and just grow cabbages.
(20:30):
Not to trigger you with your recentresearch, because I know you're burnt out
for a while, but to kindof bring back that topic of migrant workers
in Japan, you bring up thisidea of ethno nationalism or nihonjin in Japanese,
which can be used as an impactfulframework to kind of look at who
(20:53):
is considered a person or a citizenin Japan and who gets what jobs,
who gets what rights, that sortof thing. So similarly, in Korea,
this idea of one ethnicity, it'sreally been embraced for a very long
time, and the recent increase indiversity and changes in immigration policy have been
(21:15):
challenging to Korean study in many waysand have challenged this idea of one ethnicity.
So, for instance, South Koreahas seen an increase in ethnic discrimination
due to cultural and language barriers,and an increase in employment discrimination in recent
years. So with such a largegroup of migrant workers living in a new
(21:36):
country who struggle to assimilate based onthese cultural principles such as one ethnicity or
nijonzon, how is their social andeconomic well being and how is their life
in general affected? Answer it interms of Korea, So, Korea definitely
has this idea of one ethnicity similarto Japan, and I actually might even
(22:00):
say that it's stronger than the ethnonationalism in Japan. And because of this,
many migrants go through discrimination, andparticularly those from Africa and Southeast Asia
because they look so different from USand there's just a lot of like really
racist discrimination against them, and anydiscrimination would clearly affect their quality of life
(22:26):
right, And so in terms ofassimilation for these migrant workers, it really
depends on what they do for aliving, their visa and how much Korean
they know. And most migrant workersthat work blue collar jobs, they would
actually live in certain parts of Korea, for example, the city of Ansan
(22:47):
near Soul, Like it's a hugemanufacturing city and a lot of migrant workers
worked there. And as I saidbefore, these migrant workers often work where
eighty percent of their colleagues are migrantworkers. So it goes without saying that
Korea has these enclaves where the migrantworkers and Koreans don't really interact on a
(23:07):
daily basis. My first year inKorea in two thousand and six two thousand
and seven was teaching and living inAnsan, and I was living in one
of the new developments like subdivisions,and then four subway stops down was Ansan
station, where it was like,yeah, the most diverse place in Korea,
and so you know, we'd frequentlygo there for restaurants and stuff and
(23:30):
it was super fascinating. But yeah, Ansan is a pretty special case.
So I've read this really interesting researchpaper about like how these enclaves work,
and it's a Korean research published backin two thousand and three by Han kongsu,
and to quota, he writes,in fact, the Korean society experienced
(23:51):
by a migrant worker is limited inscope. Most of them cannot leave the
perimeter of their workplace. Most Koreansalso have little opportunity to encounter migrant workers
if they do not live in thearea where migrant workers work. In this
regard, some analyze that migrant workersexist as an imaginary idea for Koreans.
(24:11):
It just I think it was writtentwenty years ago, but I think it
really encapsulates like this distinct, likereally clear division between the Native Koreans and
the migrant workers. And I thinkthis has become a little better in the
last twenty years, for sure,but it's still a big problem that much
(24:32):
of what these blue collar migrant workersgo through is quite invisible to the larger
public. So we hear a lotof reports about physical abuse and inadequate housing
problems, lack of safety procedures,lack of education, and many of these
workers are not given health insurance,and there has been continues well the health
(24:52):
insurance. It's actually a really bigproblem because you know, they are like,
according to the visa status, theyshould be given a health insurance,
but these companies like or they kindof go around, like maneuver through policies
(25:14):
and not give their workers adequate healthinsurance. And for the housing, there
has been continuous allegations of workers beingforced into staying in plastic greenhouses that have
no heating or running water. It'sjust it's not really a house. It's
not really a great living situation.And these reports, there's so many of
(25:37):
them, but they go unnoticed because, you know, the general public don't
interact with them. They they don'treally I don't think a lot of people
realize that they are real people inKorea. That's kind of disheartning to hear.
As a half Korean visiting Korea,I also kind of just experienced this
like, yeah, you know,mom, maybe Korean, and you know,
(26:00):
you know all this stuff like thelanguage and the culture and the food,
but you're not you know, you'renot allowed to be imagine. I'm
not allowed into that imagine community.So I really wonder, like how hard
it must be for people who don'tspeak the language or aren't familiar with cultural
customs to like live in a societythat can be very isolating, and how
(26:26):
that makes bad bosses be able totake advantage of the people who come to
work for them. There is onepositive change that is happening right now,
which is the new bill that changesto migrant worker employment at to be geared
towards human and labor rights. Imean, I don't think it's going to
change everything like radically, but it'sa start and maybe there's There has been
(26:49):
also of movement towards creating a largerimmigration bureau that would be able to handle
a diverse range of policies outside ofjust you know, like visa paperwork.
So hopefully that will change. Andto kind of further this conversation into the
policy sort of sector, it's integralto look at the government's approach to the
(27:15):
immigration system. Right, So youargue in your paper that policy creates a
broad systematic web that influences social,political, and economic dynamics. So not
only are the policies surrounding work andjobs super important, but transportation, education,
and healthcare policies are They all intersectto show us the opportunities or the
(27:40):
disadvantages that are presented to both migrantworkers and citizens, but mainly migrant workers.
So in the case of Korea,how does current government policy reflect the
emerging need for migrant workers and howare they supported when they arrive. Additionally,
what are some of the main institutionalbarriers that migrant workers may face in
(28:03):
Korea? So I set this earlier, But immigration policies in Korea are put
into place as short term economic solutions, right, Jenny set this, but
they really don't care about career developmentor like individual livelihood that these migrants take
on. And so migrants under thesepolicies, especially those from third world countries
(28:27):
under governmental contracts, are just seenas temporary workers. And they really don't
enjoy any safety nets or support systemwithin Korea, or at least in Korea
that is provided by the government,I guess, And so once they enter
Korea, there aren't other policies youmentioned transportation, education, and healthcare policies
(28:48):
that really help these migrants to staygrounded in Korea, and general immigrant issues
and refugees issues are kind of different, at least in Korea because of the
different visas that allow them to docertain things such as work. You know,
people on the process of getting theirrefugee status are only given temporary visas
as short as like two months,so they cannot work. But regardless,
(29:14):
what I see coming up repeatedly duringthe interviews I sit in is the fact
that a lot of the refugees havea hard time visiting the hospital because they
don't have the financial means to doso nor speak the language. And with
the language aspect, the government doesoffer classes, but many of them,
many of the refugees that we talkedto, didn't really know about them because
(29:37):
it wasn't thoroughly advertised. So there'sa certain barrier when it comes to information,
which I feel is a similar barrierto similar barrier that a migrant worker
might experience. And although I've onlyreally been focusing on migrant workers, there
are a lot of things to besaid about their families that they bring to
(29:59):
Korea, right, actually Korean especiallychildren. Any discrimination or institutional barriers parents
face really affects of children obviously,and I have to look into the exact
numbers for Korea. But in Japan'scase, when I was researching, there
had been studies that show a decreasein intragenerational education mobility among migrants. So
(30:22):
if a parent has a high schoolgraduate high school degree, their children may
also have a high school degree orlower, but not really higher. Like
it's really sad when you think aboutit, Like, can usually migrants come
to Korea to offer, like providetheir children better lives, but it's not
really happening. Yeah, it's it'sreally interesting. It's definitely heartbreaking though,
(30:45):
but yeah, thank you for that. We have a few more questions before
we begin to wrap up, andwe want to talk about this twenty fifteen
paper which was called Social Capital andAssimilation of Migrant Workers and Foreign Wives in
Korea, and it talked about theconcept of social capital and it's explained as
assimilation into the economy and general societythrough social integration. And this can look
(31:10):
like anything from language acquisition to theability to make connections outside of work.
But according to the paper, theprevailance is pretty low in communities with a
large immigrant population because of the lackof supportive institutions. So have you noticed
any independent practices in these communities.Are they able to build their own capacity,
(31:33):
their own institutions, their own networks, or do they end up becoming
too disenfranchised because there's no support,not enough support from the government. This
is actually such a like, suchan interesting question. I love this question,
and I can't answer for immigrant communitiesoutside of Soul, but I have
(31:53):
definitely noticed that informal networks are superimportant for immigrants, which is why the
Etawan area. I don't know ifeither of you or any of the listeners
have been there, but it's sovital for immigrants because it's a place where
they not only find friends, butpursue their religious activities, find work opportunities,
(32:15):
seek help when a crisis secures,etc. You know, like a
lot of Korean websites or news they'renot really immigrants can't really get access to
that easily. So when they arein the Etawan area, they are able
to find and information that is reallythat is really helpful for them. And
(32:39):
I find that the mosque in thearea, which is actually the only mosque
in Korea, works as a separatesupport system that you know, like they
offer childcare system childcare for migrant workers, and they have like after school like
after school clubs for the children togo two and everything. And there are
(33:01):
also Christian churches and other NGOs thatprovide education or financial help and most importantly
medical service, especially for those whohave overstayed their visa and cannot really seek
any help from the government because thegovernment sees them as illegal immigrants. And
other than this external help, though, I sent a lot of agency and
(33:24):
active will, if you say,to really create a home in a country
that in many cases works against them. In a lot of these refugees or
immigrants that I meet. I wasthinking about the mosque as well when when
before you mentioned it, and thenI was thinking of like the vibe of
(33:45):
it's wan when I was living therein like the mid Auts or whatever to
late Oughts, like you know,weird vibe, right because the soldiers,
the American soldiers are everywhere, likeit's gross. But because of that bubble,
it allowed for these other sorts ofspaces to strengthen right and become spaces
where people were connecting from migrant communities. And so what that would look like
(34:08):
today and moving forward will be reallyinteresting because it's like a kind of special
space insol that is very very differentthan and lots of other neighborhoods. Okay,
So, Jenny, you wanted toget on the idea of bridging and
this concept of bridging, I'm reallyexcited to hear more about this. Yeah,
(34:30):
it kind of relates to the ideaof having power within your own kind
of like built community, building communitieswithin the larger like Korean society. So
this idea of bridging, when Iwas reading into it, it kind of
(34:51):
applied more to interracial marriages rather thanthe experience of migrant workers. But it's
essentially this idea of an exercise ofsocial capital that brings ideas and information and
consensus together when ethnically and culturally diversegroups come together. For example, on
a smaller scale, this bridging isdone in the Korean home by bringing in
(35:15):
a foreign bride who would then teachher child a different language, cook different
types of food and all that.And I just find this idea really interesting
because you know, in this discourseof migrant workers, where it often highlights
the isolation and disenfranchisement of foreign brides, it almost acknowledges that being from a
(35:38):
different country can actually inherently give yousome social capital. So my question to
this is do you think that wecan insinuate that individual families can have an
impact on the overall experience of immigrantintegration or is this bridging concept just an
(35:58):
academic approach. I do think thatethnically diverse families have a positive impact on
overall immigration, immigrants integration, overallimmigrants integration, there is a certain aspect
in Korea where because it's so ethnicallyhomogeneous, and because it's so important too,
(36:22):
I guess for the people to kindof keep that keep that myth going
on, like continue that myth ofthis ethnically homogeneous country. They really push
for these like interracial Koreans, Koreanchildren, or these families to fit in
(36:49):
with the larger crowd. So likeI see a lot of immigrant children or
interracial children not really embracing the cultureof their parents, like their mothers especially,
and so that is a really sadaspect of this. But overall I
(37:13):
think it does. I think ethnicallydiverse families in the long run does have
a positive impact on the larger Koreansociety. Of course, like the government
would have to play the biggest role, but Korean society has slowly come to
embrace the fact that Korea is notreally an ethnically homogeneous country anymore. Like
(37:34):
you know, they have these dailyinteraction with these families and like especially like
in schools, like these children areregularly they're being being raised with like many
more racially diverse children. And soin this really slow process, I think
(37:55):
there is a positive these families arebringing positive influence and so on an individual
level. Yes, it is certainlya bottom up process when you think about
it this way, And I alsosee a lot more media representation of interracial
marriages now and or any stories morepositive portrayals of migrant workers. Korea has
(38:22):
also had an ethnically Filipino member ofthe National Assembly, which is huge.
She received citizenship through marriage and isstill working towards claiming rights for migrants and
migrant children. So like, it'sa really slow process, but there is
a is definitely like this bridging thathappens. That's extraordinary. I didn't know
(38:44):
that, And yeah, so it'sit's probably important to remember that these are
you know, very early days insort of moving forward and finding justice for
the people who are you know,experiencing lives as migrant workers and refugees in
South Korea. So let's wrap upwith a final question, which is about
visas, which play a crucial rolewhen it comes to working in a foreign
(39:07):
country. Right they're granted on specificcategories that are accessible and tailored to individual
situations, and according to an articlepublished in the Journal of Ethnic and Migration
Studies in twenty nineteen, visa categorieshave a significant impact on residency status,
on rights, and on mobility withinthe host country, and even the potential
(39:30):
for acquiring citizenship. So in simpleterms, a migrants rights are largely determined
by the type of visa they hold, and the issuance of the visas typically
favor individuals with something specific in termsof president credentials and experience, which will
increase their chances of getting the visa. But there's probably also racial and gender
(39:52):
discrimination in visa issuance, right,So, considering this perspective, do you
think that the approach of the Koreangovernment towards immigration has been discriminatory or does
it and does it favor some workersover others. So again with this question,
we are coming back to the Koreangovernment implementing immigration policies that really only
(40:15):
think about the economic sides of things, and so these visas that are provided
are first and foremost about the levelof skill set or the education the individuals
have. We talked about the traineeprogram, where people labeled as unskilled have
to work receiving less than minimum wageunder the pretense that they are being trained.
Right. And on the other hand, however, Korea offers a side
(40:38):
door policy where individuals that have amaster's or a doctorate in the sciences and
technology are able to fast track theircitizenship process. I mean, I wouldn't
say that this policy is unfair becausemost countries, like you said, even
Canada has this, like they usuallydifferentiate visas this way, favoring those who
(40:59):
can, at least in the governmentof the at least in the eyes of
the government, benefit the country insome kind of way. And for instance,
like the US provides an H oneB visa for professionals as well.
I can't see how it is definitelylike how it can be classist and even
(41:22):
racist as it's not evident what theircriteria really look like since not all individuals
with higher education are admitted to thiscategory obviously, and like you could ask
questions like which country are the mostare most of these individuals from and from
which universities that they graduate? Iwould guess that it's mostly from like Western
(41:45):
countries with like yeah, like it'sprobably not going to be heared towards like
their world countries in Southeast Asia.And how does this discrimination extend from the
visa categories to the quality of lifethat migrant workers experience once they actually enter
and living Korea. I am goingto go back to the blue collar workers,
(42:06):
but so a lot of them areunder the employment permit system that are
tied to their workplace. So Jennytalked about this right, and so while
they are granted basic labor rights,there are just so many instances where the
company takes advantage of them. Theyleverage the fact that when they fire the
immigrant worker, the migrant has nochoice but to leave the country. And
(42:28):
most of these migrant workers under thesefeasts, I've had a worry, Hey,
a lot of money to the brokersin the first place to get a
job in a visa. So theyare in so much debt when they first
enter Korea, and that it hastaken advantage of by the companies that they
worked for. Jenny mentioned earlier theethno nationalism how it dictates, dictates who
(42:50):
is considered a Japanese in Japan,right, and who is considered a fellow
citizen, a native if you will. And so in Japan there is immigration
policy directed at remitting Japanese resilience whoare called nik in Japan, and they
are usually given limited citizenship and usuallythey work, usually in the manufacturing sectors.
(43:15):
And Korea offers a similar quasi dualcitizenship rights for coethnics such as Chisando.
And if I remember correctly, Ithink you guys did an episode on
the ethnic hierarchy and Chando back intwenty eighteen. Right, Yeah, when
I was producing this show with KoreaExpose, I spoke with Eddie Park and
(43:37):
he had been doing some investigative reportingfrom the Korean Autonomous Prefecture in Yambion and
China, and so, yeah,listeners can definitely go back and scroll back
about three years worth of episodes todefinitely definitely listen to that one. But
yeah, thank you for mentioning that. Yeah, yeah, I was like
looking through your episodes and I waslike, yeah, this is this definitely
(43:58):
is in line with what I'm gonnatalk about today, and so like,
up to two thousand and three,the citizenship right was only directed to those
who migrated out of Korea after nineteenforty eight, so it really only targeted
Korean Americans who, based on theOverseas Korean Act, were prohibited to work
in manual labor. And on theother hand, Korean, Chinese and other
(44:22):
co ethnic cities from like say Ciscountries who were mostly employed in the manufacturing
sector through the H two working Visa, which didn't really provide them with enough
for renewals for them to gain citizenship. If I remember correctly, like they
last like two months of their entirestay in the time of stay in Korea
(44:46):
to gain citizenship. And so thereis this really distinct division between Korean Americans
and Korean Chinese, creating a hierarchybetween the coethnicmigrants based on how developed their
country of origin was. And Ijust I wonder if I wonder who was
pulling those strings, right, becauseif this was back like which era of
(45:07):
government in South Korea, how werethey influenced by Uncle Sam sort of like
leaning in with with opinions and so, you know, not to be conspiratorial,
but it's not like Korea exactly hadgood governments through the fifty sixties,
seventies and eighties. Um. Andso this, right, this hierarchy between
the co ethnic migrants is really interesting. I never thought about that before.
(45:28):
But I just want to ask whatis CIS countries? Well, so CIS
countries are countries that were originally underthe Soviet Union, Russian Russian countries,
okay, under that influence okay.And then finally what about for gender um?
What about that? Um? Sofor gender um? I guess it's
(45:49):
really weird when you think about it, when because our government worked literally as
a marriage broker providing foreign rice forKorean men. And it's there's definitely super
controversial when you think about its.Yeah, these foreign brides aren't really considered
human when you think about it.They're being sold to these Korean men.
(46:10):
And like other than that, thereis also a category for artists artists quoted
where predominantly women migrant workers. Theyreceive an E six visa and end up
working in clubs, bars and evenread districts in Korea. And I've read
(46:30):
an interesting research paper that looked intohow the E six visa further divides into
racial categories. So as for theChinese, they often go into care work
and other service sectors because they lookmore similar to the native Koreans and can
usually speak more Korean. And thosefrom Russia or like the Soviet Union countries,
(46:51):
they work in bars or casinos,especially near the US Army base because
they look foreign and you can usuallyspeak English. And I think them looking
for and is more important. Andum, yeah, I just want to
point out that there's some really excellentresearch being done on the sort of like,
um, military, the culture,the communities that grow up around American
(47:13):
military bases, and uh, thethe you know and and what what that
was like? Uh in soul inin in other in other parts of the
country. Bridget Martin. Um.I used to play music with her in
Soul back in the um back whenI lived there fifteen years ago, and
she now is a wonderful researcher andso um yeah, definitely check out those
(47:34):
episodes as well. That episode inthe Creophile Archives is Militarism, Development and
the Mixed Legacy of Souls Young SanGarrison from twenty eighteen. UM. So,
this has been so interesting and andI guess for listeners who want to
know more about this topic, whatare things they could check out to to
be able to read or listen orwatch more about to find out more about
(48:00):
migrant work in South Korea. I'mgonna recommend two things, but both of
these are Korean and so I Ireally recommend it to anyone who knows Korean,
but unfortunately there aren't any Korean translation. But there is one book called
get Niptungi but by Utsunhi about migrantworkers in the agricultural sector, and it's
(48:22):
a phenomenal book that came out lastyear. Um. I really recommend for
anyone to check it out. Andthere is also um This movie is by
a really famous Korean director. Idon't know. I think a lot of
the listeners would know him, butyeah, I was like he who famously
(48:45):
did Old Boy and Sympathy from MisterVengeance, Sympathy for Lady Vengeance. His
recent film in english's Decision to Leave. I think in Korean it's like the
Breakup or something. It's like sogreat, it's so good. But yes,
he's kind of one of the twobig internationally renowned directors along with Bungeing
Health. So what about parts onwhich which film of his? So it's
(49:19):
a really short film called Never EndingPeace and Love in English, it's in
Korean it's it's Ko and it talksabout this name um Uh, this Nepal
um migrant worker called Chandra Uh whocan't really speak Korean and she like in
(49:43):
a really I don't really want tospoil the movie, but it's Uh.
It revolves around her being incarcerated inum medical like a mental facility in Korea
because she can't speak Korean, andit just it really revolves around how how
much discrimination these migrants faced just becausethey don't know Korean. And it is
(50:10):
based on a true story, andit's only twenty seven minutes long, and
I think from my memory there's nota lot of Korean. It's it's mostly
like you just watch, there's nota lot of what do you call it?
Like, Yeah, there's not alot of dialogue. So I think
(50:30):
a lot of like people who don'tspeak Korean would be able to understand the
movie. Yeah, even if there'sno subtitles or I feel like the lack
of dialogue might be intentional as well, just because you know, as someone
with a language barrier, you're fairlyable to speak, verily able to communicate.
So everything is you know, interpretingbody language, interpreting the situation.
(50:53):
So that's really interesting. I willdefinitely check that out and we'll try to
track it down and put a linkto that in the show notes. Thank
you for that recommendation. An haakYoung's research focuses on the immigration experience for
new arrivals in South Korea, thechallenges migrant workers face in Japan, and
Chinese border policy. Hi, thiswas such a fascinating conversation. Thank you
(51:15):
so much for joining us and sharingabout all of your research with us today.
Yeah, thank you. Thanks verywonderful having you on the show.
I had a great time. Thankyou so much. And that's episode one
(51:37):
hundred and eight of The Korea File. Check out my other work, including
my progressive politics interview show Unpacking theNews, at Canada's number one politically progressive
podcast network, Harbinger Media. Findout more about our community of more than
fifty left politics shows at Harbinger Medianetwork dot com and follow me on Twitter
at Andre MARGULEA special thanks to executiveproducer and researcher Jenny Pimontel for her work
(52:00):
on this episode. Thank you somuch. Listeners. You can find me
on Twitter at Babe Jenny. TheCreophile has been exploring Korean society, culture,
and politics since August twenty fourteen,and support from listeners like you helps
cover the costs for broadcasting this show. So if you can afford just a
few bucks a month to support theshow, go to Patreon dot com Slash
the Creophile. Thanks watch for ournext episode in late twenty twenty three.
(52:22):
Until then, I'm Andre Gouler andI'm Jenny Qantal. Thanks for listening.
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