Motherhood, Revolution and Fairytales in North Korea

On episode 109 Dr. Theresa Hyun, a York University professor and the author of “Writing Women in Korea: Translation and Feminism in the Colonial Period”, joins hosts Andre Goulet and Gennie Pimentel to talk about children’s literature, fairy tales and the role of mothers in the North Korean revolution.

Plus: a surprising data set on the number of immigrant and multiethnic children who live outside of Seoul and a clip from episode 1 of the classic North Korean children's cartoon 'Squirrel and Hedgehog'.

Watch 'Squirrel and Hedgehog' here.

Support the show at patreon.com/thekoreafile

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
You're listening to The Korea File.I'm Andre Gulai. The Koreafile has been
exploring Korean society, culture and politics, and highlighting critical, independent voices you
won't find anywhere else since twenty fourteen. Find almost nine years of archived episodes,
including interviews with academics, activists,musicians, and more. Wherever you

(00:25):
get your podcasts, and you cansupport the show at patreon dot com slash
the Korea File. And on thisepisode, we'll be speaking with doctor Teresa
Jan, York University professor in Torontoand the author of Writing Women in Korea,
Translation and Feminism in the Colonial Period. She'll be joining us to talk

(00:48):
about children's literature, fairy tales,and the role of mothers in the North
Korean Revolution. Jenny Pimentel is inToronto. Hi Andre, Hi Jenny.
I'm excited about this conversation. Didyou reach out to our guests? I
just thought it would be really neatto have my former professor come on the
show. Totally not intimidating at all, but for real, I am delighted

(01:11):
to have Professor Hann on the show. I have a deep respect for individuals
who pursue translation studies because I personallyfind it to be such a fascinating field
filled with subjectivity and nuance. Andalso, we had a similar discussion a
couple months ago on this podcast onthis topic of women in North Korea,
so I thought this would be agood way to expand on that amazing.

(01:34):
Yeah, I'm really looking forward toit. But before we get to that
conversation, I wanted to fly somethingreally interesting for our listeners. Okay,
so you guys are episode this summerfeatured a conversation with scholar A Hakkiyang about
her research on the immigration experience inSouth Korea. So when I came across
the recent edition of the Blue Roofnewsletter, I really wanted to point this

(01:59):
this this information out. So here'sthe title data of the week, Immigrants
and multi ethnic children live outside ofSoul. Here's what it says. Despite
its reputation, South Korea is alreadya nation of immigrants. More than two
and a half million non Korean nationalslive in South Korea, a record number.
Significant immigration in South Korea began inthe early two thousands, creating a

(02:20):
generation of New Koreans with non Koreanor half Korean ethnicity and parentage. Jenny.
What else does the report say?According to the office of Assembly Member
e Tegu, more than ten percentof elementary school students are immigrants and or
multi ethnic in fifty six of SouthKorea's two hundred and twenty eight localities,
which is the smallest unit of localgovernment. Currently, one hundred and eighty

(02:45):
one thousand multicultural students are enrolled inSouth Korean schools. As of twenty twenty
two, seventy seven of South Korea'ssix thousand, eighty seven elementary schools had
student bodies where more than fifty percentof students were immigrants and or multicultural.
Furthermore, the report reads, mostof these children, who typically trace their
heritage to China, Russia and southeasternCentral Asia, live in rural areas and

(03:08):
manufacturing bases. The farmlands of HampyeongunCounty in Jelinamdo had the highest proportion of
multi ethnic elementary kids twenty point fivepercent, followed by Yungyanggun County in Gyungsan
book at twenty percent, and oneelementary school in the factory town of Ansan
in Yugido, where I used tolive for a long time ago. In

(03:29):
the outskirts of Seoul, has astudent body that's ninety five percent immigrants and
or multi ethnic, which is whichreally like shocked me, Yeah, I
get this. So only three localitiesin South Korea had student bodies with fewer
than one percent immigrant or multi ethnicstudents, the ultra wealthy Konnamgu and Zhotchogu

(03:50):
and the prosperous suburb Quatun. Inmany countries, wealthy cities are where the
immigrants live, where rural areas remainmonolithic, but in South Korea that convey
is reversed. So all this waslike so fascinating, but then also in
the Blue roof, I was supershocked to read this report on how budget
cuts are threatening essential services for thesekids and their families. The Unsukul administration's

(04:13):
pushed to cut taxes, which hasalready eliminated the budget for critical scientific research
and assistance for local governments, isnow beginning to affect basic governmental services like
the Support Center for Foreign Workers.These centers provide critical assistance for migrant factory
and farm workers who always who frequentlyface wage theft and abuse. And these
support centers were at forty locations aroundthe country and they're now all facing elimination

(04:40):
the perspective the report reads at theblue roof. The perspective. Closure of
the centers, which are often thesole lifeline for migrant workers, prompted a
joint letter to the South Korean governmentfrom the embassies of eight Southeastern and Central
Asian nations expressing concern. It's highlyunusual for foreign embassies to directly comment on
the budgetary affairs of a host state. So both of these things taken together

(05:02):
were like really shocking to me,And since we covered it in our last
episode, like the experience of immigrantsin Korea, I just really wanted to
highlight it. But basically, like, it's amazing that this multi ethnic character
now exists in South Korea. Butthe government response to like liquidate these forty

(05:25):
centers that actually help these families inthese communities, it sucks, doesn't it.
Yeah, no, thank you forbringing this up. It really does
suck because for so many migrant workers, this is their only support that they
have in South Korea. And it'snot like they're a small population either,
They're actually growing. So the factthat these facilities are being dissolved is really

(05:46):
sad to hear, and I feellike, I guess just like talking about
it, calling attention to it isa good thing, because I had no
clue that it was that amount ofkids in the schools who were coming from
multi ethnic families. So thank youto the Blue Roof for being an exceptional
resource. If listeners don't already subscribe, they have it in English and in

(06:11):
Korean, so oh okay. Yeah, it's one of the newsletters that I'm
always eager to click through and findout what's up. So check that out,
the Blue Roof Newsletter, And let'smove on from there to welcome our
guest, Once upon a Time,Doctor Teresa janj wrote the writing Women in
Korea, Translation and Feminism in theColonial Period. She joins us today from
Toronto for a conversation exploring children's literature, fairy tales, and the role of

(06:35):
mothers in the North Korean Revolution.Teresa, thanks a lot for coming on
the show. Welcome to the crewfile. Yeah, well, thank you for
having me. I've been looking forwardto this conversation. We have been to
You have a really wide range ofknowledge in a lot of different scholarly fields,
but for this episode, we reallywanted to talk about North Korean children's

(06:56):
literature in the fifties and sixties andhow that inner sex with the revolutionary role
of the mother in North Korea.You presented on this topic at a conference
in twenty twenty three. What wasthe conference and why did you decide to
present on this topic. The conferencewas of the Canadian Association for Translation Studies
otherwise known as CATS, and thegeneral topic was questioning the universal through translation,

(07:23):
translating the social sciences and humanities today. So this was part of a
larger gathering including various fields humanity,social sciences, held at the Keel campus
of York University. And you know, the translation studies part lasted three days.
The title of my paper was translationand Periodicals. The well that was

(07:46):
the title of the of that partof the conference, the spaces of print,
culture, of the social sciences andhumanities. So there were other people
on the panel talking about things liketranslation in Hong Kong, periodicals, how
translation popularizes psychology in Germany, therole of translation in building the modern Turkish

(08:09):
family. So since North Korean cultureand literature are not well known, I
tried to take opportunities to introduce theseinternationally. You know, if you know
there's a conference that deals with thesethings that's so interesting, and I love
how that how how you can bepulling in these sort of untold stories into

(08:30):
academia, something that we tried todo on the show as well. So
we're really really happy to have youhere. So let's get into it a
little bit. Post war times arecritical junctures where social reform happens rapidly,
and in North Korea, the governmentintroduced ideological reform to do just that.
So what sort of methods educational orotherwise did the North Korean government implement after

(08:54):
the war and how did these methodsimpact and target women's Well, when you
talk about post war in Korea,you know, you can be talking about
post World War two in the lateforties or post Korean War in the fifties.
So my work focuses on the latefifties, on the late forties and

(09:16):
mid to late nineteen sixties, Sothis was kind of the heyday of translation
in North Korea. They were heavilyinfluenced by China and the Soviet Union,
but by the mid nineteen sixties therewere growing conflicts between the Soviets and the
Chinese, and so the North Koreanswere compelled to focus on their own resources,

(09:41):
and they developed their policy of selfreliance. So this meant there was
a drastic reduction in translations in allfields, including children's literature. In terms
of policy reforms affecting women, beginningin the late nineteen forties, the initial
phase of the democratic socialist revolution tookplace, and as part of this they

(10:03):
had a campaign to eliminate colonialism andfeudalism. They instituted land reform, nationalization
of important industries, and labor lawsto guarantee gender equality. So you know,
we're focusing on the mobilization of women. In the late nineteen forties,

(10:26):
most women in North Korea were workingon family farms, assuming traditional responsibilities for
household chores. In order to achievea socialist revolution, it was considered essential
to overcome these outmoded social customs bybringing women into the labor force. An

(10:46):
essential phase of North Korean policy onwomen involved changes in social and legal systems
to free women from the patriarchal familysystem, and in the late nineteen forties,
North Korea embarked on a program ofland reform to eliminate or change the

(11:09):
system of landlords and tenant farmers,so women were provided with a way of
economic sustenance, since they were grantedportions of land on the same basis as
men. So this was quite new, you know, Traditionally, you know,
they never had this privilege. InNovember of nineteen forty five, the

(11:31):
Democratic Women's Federation adopted a platform thatsupported giving women the right to vote,
eradicating illiteracy among women, and stressingthat women must devote themselves to defending the
nation. So, in a word, women were expected to transform themselves into
communists, and early childhood education hadto be revamped to prepare future citizens of

(11:58):
the socialist society. But women's studiesscholars have argued that the policy on women
became dualistic. So on the onehand, women were required to enter the
labor force in order to reconstruct theeconomy, but on the other the traditional

(12:20):
submissiveness of women within the household andtheir role within the family was again being
emphasized. So the women's studies scholarspoint out that, you know, this
kind of you know, put alot of stress on women. It's a
bit of a contradiction, and I'mcurious how that pulls into motherhood. Jenny,

(12:41):
go go ahead, pose into that. Yeah, So what I'm hearing
is that this figure of the revolutionarymother was used as a way to kind
of mend the old and new societieslike post pre revolution and post revolutionary societies
together. And according to an articleI read called revolutionary mothers women in the

(13:07):
North Korean Revolution, the state outlawedquote unquote colonial practices such as concubines and
prostitution, which not only submitted womento an oppressed role in a capitalist framework,
but also kept them in a kindof colonial subjectivity from where they couldn't
escape oppressor's desires. So why wasthe government promoting this type of rhetoric and

(13:31):
what were their reactions like from women. Well, it's true that the North
Korean government granted women the right tovote, provided them with portions of land,
but as I said, women werekind of doubly burdened. So of
course, you know, there wasthis attempt to free women from colonialism,

(13:54):
you know, sexual exploitation and thosesorts of evils which they had endured,
particularly during the Japanese colonial period.And they did have you know, more
opportunities, but still, you know, there were many burdens and restrictions on
women. I actually read something elsethat during the Japanese Revolution, Korean North

(14:20):
Korean women or Korean women were kindof forced to mobilize. So because of
this colonial power, women were theykind of mobilized into these these groups and
it was almost it's almost a wayof saying that Korean women's mobilization kind of

(14:46):
started during Japanese colonial the Japanese colonialperiod, and it was almost a way
to kind of boost that, likeKorean women getting together and fighting for their
rights. Yeah, you're probably well, you're talking about partially the comfort women.
I think when women were recruited toyou know, serve the sexual needs

(15:09):
of the you know, soldiers,the Japanese soldiers. But at the same
time, you know, Korean youngmen were being forced to fight, and
there were ways that women could getout of having to serve, you know,
in the sexual core, and thatwas to work in the factory.

(15:31):
And some women, uh if thereis research about this as well. You
know, some women chose to workin factories and it was very hard,
but then they learned some skills whichthey were able to use, you know,
after the war was so, canwe just define motherhood in the North
Korean post war context? The afterthe Korean War? What did that look

(15:52):
like? And how was this ideaof motherhood for women used to construct a
revolutionary subjectivity for them in North Korea. Yeah, I'd like to kind of
bring your attention to a book byEmmanuel Kim called Rewriting Revolution, Women's Sexuality
and Memory in North Korean Fiction,and in Emanuel Kim in this book comments

(16:18):
on a novel which is called theYear nineteen thirty two. So this was
written in North Korea, and itwas written under the direction of Kim Jong
il, you know, son ofKim Ilsong, and the aim of the
novel was to memorialize the exploits ofKim Il sung as a fighter against Japanese

(16:41):
imperialism. So in this novel,Kang Pang Suk, who was the mother
of Kim ils Song, is kindof you know, she's giving a given
a very central role. And I'mquoting Emmanuel Kim here. In the novel,
Kang Bang sulk urges Kimil's Song tojoin his gorilla soldiers rather than stay

(17:03):
with her. This conversation between themother of the dprk and the son became
the template for the way in whichall mothers in North Korean fiction ought to
speak to their children, and theway children ought to respond to the states
beckoning through the words of the mother. So the mother does not try to

(17:25):
hold back and protect the children.Instead she says, go out and fight
for your country. So this wassupposed to be a model, you know,
for women from a manual kind.So he adds, you know,
talking about the mother, the motherfigure represents both the family and the nation.
The two are not supposed to bebifurcated or distinct in North Korean culture,

(17:45):
in the DPRK Constitution and in otherliterature, the family is identified as
the fundamental cell of society. Sothe use of biomedical terminology to describe the
family is political rhetoric of the state. The state is the life of a
family as much as the family isthe life of the state. They are

(18:08):
essentially one and the same. Soyou can see that the role of mothers
was very much politicized. I lovethat. That's so interesting. Let's put
motherhood aside. There's so much moreto explore. But like, that's a
really good, you know, verybasic introduction and definitely gives us some good
ideas to think about and maybe pursuefor our own individual research at home.

(18:30):
But let's move on out to fairytales and how that connects with the work
that you do. So in theWestern world, we have a long history
of fairy tales, obviously, LittleRed Riding Hood, Cinderella, Snowhite,
et cetera. And these are storiesthat have been told and retold and reimagined
for generations by people and cultures aroundthe world. So tell us a little

(18:52):
bit more about how does translation playinto the work you do. What does
that look like when it comes tofairy tales. Well, I should point
out that I am not myself atranslator. What I've looked at is,
uh, trans the way that NorthKoreans translated some European fairy tales, like
The Brothers grim Or La Fontaine andASoP And you know, so why did

(19:21):
they translate these stories? You know, what message were they trying to get
across? Uh? Mostly it wasa question of you know, uh,
the you know, they've read theseyou know, well known authors of classical
children literature as people who were againstthe exploitation of the people and you know,

(19:41):
the you know, the sort ofoppressiveness of the upper classes, you
know, and this was the messagethey were trying to drive home, uh
to you know, to educate childrenat the same time. This is not
directly related to fairy tales, butyou know, they were very much into
science in these children's magazines, youknow, trying to encourage the young North

(20:04):
Koreans to do things like go toMars or you know, explore the bottom
of the ocean or things like that. You know, so they were pushing,
you know, to make the youthmodernized and you know, give them
the sense that they had to fightagainst capitalism and exploitation. I was talking

(20:25):
with a colleague about how we weregoing to be talking with you about about
North Korean fairy tales. And hehas a storytelling background. He has an
environment podcast called Green Majority, buthis other background is storytelling, and so
he was like, oh, yougot to ask about story DNA, And
I was like, what story DNA. So I looked it up and did
some research, and basically, storyDNA is the idea of the DNA of

(20:48):
narrative structure. It's also called dramaticaand it describes how narratives can be formed
and where writers build specific narrative genomesfor specific stories, the same way biologists
can create a human genome. Sowhat are some North Korean fairy tales that
have a story DNA that we mightrecognize as being connected to some of our
Western fairy tales. So you're talkingabout North Korean fairy tales, not translations,

(21:17):
you know, sort of European fairytales. I have to admit that
my the corpus that I have availableto me in English of North Korean fairy
tales consists of eight North Korean folktales translated into English. And these tales
were mostly translated into English from Koreanin the nineteen eighties and nineties. They

(21:41):
include illustrations of costumes and traditional scenes, and you know, they recount victorious
battles against enemies and the importance ofremaining loyalty, loyalty your country, the
triumph of the common people over greedylandlords, you know, the will missed
to sacrifice one's life for the country. And so this is the corpus that

(22:07):
I have available to me in termsof North Korean fairy tales. It's very
limited, No, but that's sointeresting. So like it's interesting to think
of how you know, it's notabout finding the slipper and marrying the prince,
It's about how do you liquidate thegreedy landlord, because that is poison
for the society. Okay, Ilove that, Jenny. I'll pass it

(22:27):
to you to talk a little bitabout socialist mobilization for kids. That sounds
fun. Yeah. So in NorthKorea, imported and domestic fairy tales were
kind of used as tools to mobilizesocialist ideology and children, as Teresa had
mentioned before, and children's literature couldtarget young and impressionable populations to instill morals

(22:52):
and messages valued by the state.But the same could be said for Western
fairy tales as well. Isn't thatright? What are some examples of that
and how are Western values promoted throughour fairy tales. It's a little bit
difficult to, you know, tokind of pinpoint that. I would say,
the North Korean fairy tales, asI said, are very much you

(23:15):
know, focused on having them,you know, promote socialism socialist ideals.
I suppose, you know, maybeif I could, you know, just
think of some of the South Koreanfairy tales that you know, it seems
like they're more interested in getting alongwith people, being fair, you know,

(23:37):
not not brooding too much, notbeing selfish, that kind of thing.
There are many examples of South Koreananimation available widely on YouTube. So
I think that's you know, maybemore in those lines rather than you know,
being heroic for your country and fightingthe enemy and that kind of thing.
What about, Teresa, the waysthat those fairy tales would target the

(24:02):
kids to instill these sort of statemorals or values. Could you give an
example of, like, you know, what is one popular fairy tale where
we would see that, and it'sreally clear in the story itself and in
the characters. Fairy tales for instance, that deal with you know, they
have some like say, one traditionalfairy tale about two generals who were you

(24:26):
know, this is a North Koreanone of the ones that I have,
and they were supposed to go outand perform a deed which would protect their
community, and one of them,you know, went out and said,
okay, I can do this,you know, And so he tried,
and he failed, and he cameback and he realized that one of the

(24:48):
elders in the village had died inthe meantime because of a problem that they
were experiencing. And so, youknow the moral of this tale is that
you know, you accomplish more byworking alongside your comrades, and you know
this is the important thing, youknow, rather than trying to prove how
great you are. So that wasone, you know, kind of tale

(25:11):
that we read. That's a goodexample that kind of really differs from what
we're used to because we usually haveone hero who stands out from the rest
and is able to either save theprincess or save the world, whereas in
a lot of North Korean short storiesthat I've read as well, it's very
much we have to work together toget this project done, and that will

(25:37):
ensure that we all have a greatlife and our homeland will be free.
And there's a lot of those kindsof messages present in your study and in
your research. Have you come acrossa fairy tale that like stands out or
like registers with you more than others. Is there one that you enjoy the
most? Well, I suppose there'sone where you know they're trying to figure

(26:00):
out who the you know, thestrongest or the most able. You know
that these are mostly somewhat male dominated. I'll have to say, who the
who the you know, the themost the protector of their community could be.
And you know they had to figureout how to get a feather to

(26:21):
go over you know, a rowof hedges, and you know, one
of them was you know, huffingand puffing and uh, you know,
practically trying to you know, pushit. But the other one, you
know, just kind of took histime and he kind of waited until the
wind could blow it across, youknow. So you know, maybe a
little maybe a little bit unusual fora North Korean fairy tale, but you

(26:42):
know, wisdom, you know,I think that's something you might find in
a traditional Korean fairy tale as well. Is it kind of like the slow
and study wins the race kind ofdeal, similar to that kind of like
yeah, you know, rather thanyou know, bravado, you know,

(27:03):
wisdom. I mean, they weretrying to emphasize wisdom in that tale in
particular. So what what brought youto doing this kind of work and exploring
motherhood and exploring children's fairy tales.How did you come to this, to
this area of expertise in your professionalwork. Well, I've always been interested
in you know, sort of folktales that sort of thing. When I

(27:27):
was beginning my career, I waslooking at some Western stories. Uh,
and you know how the hero youknow, the different ways of analyzing the
phases or the functions of the hero. And then when I was in Korea,
I just came to be aware ofthe work of some of the scholars

(27:51):
there who work on North Korean literature, and you know, looking around in
the libraries and things, you know, this seemed to be an area that
would be good to go into,because you know, maybe it wasn't as
well recognized or researched as you know, say a work by a major novelist
or something of that sort. Forlisteners who want to find out more about

(28:15):
motherhood in North Korea or about fairytales in North Korea. Are there some
scholarly works that you would point usto or other other kinds of media where
people could could go and find outmore about those topics. Yeah, I
think, you know, I didmention you know, one one scholar,
and you know, I think youcan fairly easily if you you know,

(28:36):
even if you google it, andyou will find works by scholars, and
you know, looking at animation fromNorth and South Korea. I teach a
course on translation and children's literature andanimation in North and South Korea. That's
one of the courses I teach,and you know, North Korea some yeah,

(29:02):
yeah, it's a lot of fun. North Korean animation is fairly available,
I would say, you know,and you can look at it and
get a lot about their values andyou know, compare it to South Korean
animation. I did a little surveywith the students in that course, and
you know, they pointed out thatthe North Korean emphasis was on you know,

(29:23):
protecting the country and you know,fighting, and they felt there was
more violence, whereas the South Koreanwas more you know, imaginative, and
they felt that the South Korean animationwas more technically advanced. Scrorel and Hedgehog
is animation for kids in North Koreaand it's available on YouTube as well.

(29:45):
I've watched some. I do likethe soundtracks though. I feel like the
music is really unique and it feelsvery patriotic as well, but you know,
kind of drive, you know,and how to be clever and kind
of thing. Maria too. Sofinally, we would like to end the

(30:11):
show by giving the guests an opportunityto share with listeners something that they've been
listening to or watching recently or readingas well. So are you into any
Korean TV or free in music.Yeah, I mean, in fact,
I like to start my day bywatching Achi Madan. So this is not

(30:34):
what the younger generation watches, Irealize, but you know, you have
guests coming on and they sing andthey talk about their families and it gets
quite emotional, but you know,it's a good way to get to start
the day. And then at dinnertimeToronto time, I like to decompress by
listening to music from the classical stationin Korea, and it's you know,

(30:56):
it's daytime in Korea. But soyou can say that I kind of keep
in tune with Korea day and nightthat way. Definitely keeping in tune.
That's amazing impressive that you know aboutAtsimada. I think my mom watches that
regularly as well. And Teresa,do you have any last thoughts just to
kind of send us out, youknow, pay attention to, you know,

(31:18):
the kind of genres that are kindof ignored, such as I mean,
children's literature does get a lot ofattention, but somehow it doesn't have
the same prestige as you know,novels and things like that. So you
know, maybe really, you know, take a good look into that children's
literature and These Days animation as well. Doctor Teresa Kean is a York University

(31:41):
professor and the author of writing Womenin Korea, Translation and Feminism in the
Colonial Period. She joined us fromToronto today. Teresa, thanks a lot
for speaking with The Korea File.Thank you very much. I enjoyed it.
And that's episode one hundred and nineof The Korea File. Check out
my other work, including my progressivepoics panel show, Harbinger's Showcase at Canada's

(32:01):
number one politically progressive podcast network,Harbinger Media. Find out more about our
community and more than sixty left politicsshows at harbingermedianetwork dot com and at Canada's
progressive journalism community on rig dot CAAand follow me on Twitter at Andre Margoulai.
Special thanks to associate producer and researcherJenny Pimontel for her work on this

(32:22):
episode. Thank you, this hasbeen so awesome, and listeners you can
find me on Twitter at Bbjen.The Kreafile has been exploring Crean society,
culture and politics since August twenty fourteen, and support from listeners like you helps
cover costs for broadcasting and distribution.This podcast is produced and assistant produced,
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(32:45):
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us a few dollars a month.We really appreciate it. Watch for our
next episode, dropping in early twentytwenty four. Until then, I'm Andre
Gula and I'm Jenny Pimento. Thanksfor listening. I'm here. Hey,

(33:10):
come on la NAA call me aftertaking a map. Yeah,