November 13, 2024 • 40 mins
- Host Chester Moore talks with Shane Bonnot of the Coastal Conservation Association about the state of the southern flounder fishery.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to More Outdoors News Talk five sixty KLVI. This
is Chester More and it is November, and most of
the time in November people will be out fishing for
flounder the fall flounder on but harvest is prohibited from
November first through December the fourteenth, And believe it or not,
Louisiana prohibits harvest. They actually dial back a little earlier
(00:22):
than ours because of problems with southern flounder, and to
talk about southern flounder, the conservation needs and just to
fish themselves. A good friend of mine has probably been
on this show twenty times over the years, Shane, and
though he is the Coastal Advocacy director for our friends
over at the Coastal Conservation Association. Welcome to the program, Chester.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Good to be with you again and excited to talk
about something that we both deeply, deeply care about. So
thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, for sure, it's an incredible fish. And I think
one of the things that people who just kind of
like bild flounder fishing every once in a while bycatch
flounder and they're happy. I don't think they understand what
a kind of a unique life cycle a flounder has
I mean, they're really a different fish. Can you kind
of go through that basic life cycle of a flounder force?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, happy too, And it's good. It is good for
people to have an understanding of what this fish goes
through to become a flat fish in the early stages
of their life and then also what they go through
to ensure that, you know, the successful generations are are
recruited into the base system. So flounder start their life
(01:37):
cycle offshore. Most of them start their life cycle offshore
as a tiny larvae. As you know, flounder spawn in
the winter time. So and that's why we have to
fall my migration closures to allow the fish to go
offshore to spawn. And we'll get into the reasons why.
(01:57):
But anyways, the babies, the larvae start their lives offshore,
and they drift into our base systems and settle out
and recruit into the base systems where they'll the basystem
serves as a nursery for those fish and that's where
they'll they'll grow through their juvenile stages and as they
become adults, they'll do an annual migration offshore to to
(02:22):
spawn again. And the way that they've evolved is you know,
they plounder are really a cold natured fish. They prefer
prefer colder temperatures, and they need a stable environment for
survival in those early life stages. So there's a critical
window for flounder flounders to spawn regarding temperature. There's a
(02:47):
critical temperature window, and then there's also a critical window
for successful survival of the larvae and recruitment of those
larvae into the estuaries. And there's also a critical temperature
window for sex determination, and so all of these things
play into what our populations of flounder look like on
(03:10):
the Texas coast. But the larvae cycle lasts about sixty days.
It could be longer, it could be a little bit
shorter depending on the temperature, but ideally the temperatures around
the mid to upper sixties is what they prefer in
degrees fahrenheit, So sixty seven sixty eight is kind of
an ideal temperature water temperature for them in the Gulf. Yeah,
(03:36):
so when we have really warm winters, temperatures are seventy
or seventy three degrees average in the Gulf of Mexico,
that's a little bit too warm for a successful recruitment
into the bay system. So you know, the hatcheries have
gotten a really really good at southern flounder spawning and
(04:01):
larval raising because they've really dialed in what it takes
temperature wise, what it takes to successfully grow these fish.
But yes, offshore, you need stable water temperatures upper sixties,
and so we want for flounder, we kind of want colder, colder,
colder winter times, and typically when you have a colder winter,
(04:22):
that next year you'll have following the higher recruitment of fish.
So across their entire geographic range from northern Mexico, you know,
to Florida and then up the up the East coast
all the way up to you know, North Carolina Virginia,
we're seeing decreased population sizes of flounders and the main
(04:48):
contributing factor is believed to be warm, warmer water temperatures offshore.
And so a lot of states have implemented these closures
in the and as you mentioned, ours is November one
to December fourteenth. Louisiana's starts in October. I think mid
October that Alabama has a closure. So every Gulf state
(05:13):
now has a closure except Mississippi. The only state that
doesn't have one, and then some of the states on
their eastern seaboard, I have different regulations to try to
help help this species while it's in this period of
downward downward recruitment trends. And so, yeah, we we do
(05:35):
what we can. We're not in total control, so we
got to kind of, you know, use the tools that
we have available to us. And the one that's that's
most widely used now in addition to bag limits and
size restrictions is the seasonal closure to let the fish spawn.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It's a really interesting thing because I got involved in
found flounder conservation a long, long, very early the end
of my career, very very early, and the problem that
was pointed out the most back then was shrimping related bycatch,
and shrimping related bycatch was addressed in a lot of ways.
We can talk a little bit about bycatch because that
(06:17):
if people have any kind of history understanding flounder rags
and things like that, bycatch was big talk back in
the mid nineties to early two thousands.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah, I mean in bycatch is still something that's important
to discuss and it's still something that it can have
an impact on fisheries and certainly, you know the way
that flounder utilized the water column, meaning that they're mostly
on the bottom parts of the water column, they are
highly susceptible to bycatch. And it's not just southern flounder
(06:48):
that we think of. It's all sorts of flatfish. And
I think we have somewhere in the low twenties species
different species of flatfish.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And well, that's interesting because when I was a kid,
I remember getting like, you know, we would go buy
a little a little pack of shrimp, and often it
would have a little flatfish in it, and I'm sure
most of the time that was not a southern flounder.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, it could be sols, it could be tallfish,
you know, maybe maybe small golf flounder. We have, like
I said, we have numerous species. But yeah, that's you know,
bycatch is an important issue. The range of bycatch to
pounds of bye catch to pounds of shrimp has been studied,
(07:31):
and different studies tell you different things, but it's anywhere
between four to twelve pounds of bycatch for every pounds
of shrimp. So there's a lot of different species that
could be negatively affected by that activity. And an as
you mentioned in the nineties there was a big focus
to reduce that effort in our based systems and that
(07:53):
that that has helped with a number of species, but
we still have by catch and we have you know,
targeted catch of croker and other things that that can
have effect on, you know, the population dynamics. But for
flounder specifically, you know, it has helped, but that again
(08:15):
there's there's no panacea for any of these efforts to
recover fisheries. You have to have a holistic approach. By
catches one of them. Uh, and now we've we're trying
to address it through these closures.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, you know, I remember being with Shannon Thompkins, who
was out the writer for the Houston Chronicle with parks
on my life going out of Chema to do when
the bycatch devices were put on and the second wave
of those, and the reason I remember this was because
they caught like a pound pounds and a half gulf flounder,
(08:52):
which I had never only golf funder I've ever seen,
was about the size of my palm, you know, and
it was a really big gulf flounder, which is another
species of flounder. And so we have the history of
trying to address it back then. But there comes a
point where there's different understandings of what's happening, and another
thing we have to talk about. I mean, of course,
(09:13):
we know that recreational fishing has been changed. I mean,
at one point we could keep twenty flounder in Texas.
I mean it was like the wild West, you know,
but you got into flounder or unique because you can
gig them. You know, you can't bowfish or gig a
trout or a redfish or stuff like that. But there
(09:37):
is this traditional thing in Texas a flounder gigging. And
that is not only from a recreational standpoint. Is there's
a commercial fishery that pretty much utilizes like the gigging
and things like that. And I believe there's a component,
or at least has been a component of some of
that bycatch being in the commercial part of that as well.
When we come back, we'll talk more about flounder with
(09:57):
Shane Benot from Cca. Welcome back to More Outdoors on
News Talk five sixty klv I. This is Chester More.
Always catch our show six to seven pm Central Standard
time here on News Talk five sixty k l v I.
Via the iHeartRadio app on the podcast and always catch
(10:17):
my work at Texas Fishing Game. I blog at Highercalling
dot net and follow me on Instagram at the Chester More.
Continue our conversation with Shane b Though of c c
A on flounder. Can we talk about that aspect of
that on the commercial side.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, well we do. You know, flounder is a commercially
viable finfish and it is it is really mostly selective fishing,
as you mentioned, selective fishing through gigging. And you know,
there's not a whole lot of commercial finfish licenses out
there anymore, the ones that are obviously fairly valuable. But
(10:56):
we've we've you know, the state has bought quite a
few of those finfish licenses back. But yes, they're they're
bag limit is thirty fish and there you know, they
report their landings to Texas Parks and Wilife, and Parks
and Wilife tracks landings over time, and you know, I
think there probably could be a greater emphasis put on auditing,
(11:19):
you know, landings and ensuring that land all landings are
getting reported. But we also need to recognize that the
nature of gigging has has changed substantially in the last
twenty years. Technology has gotten better, lighting systems have gotten better.
(11:40):
But with with gigging, there's no bycatch. I mean it
is selective targeted fishing. You're not there's no hooking, mortality
and things like that. So I mean there's arguments to
be made that's a very efficient and effective way to
get fish out of the fishery. But we need to
recognize that the popularity of gigging from boats has increased substantially,
(12:02):
So we need to look at, you know, possibly look
at the level of that activity, how many people are
doing that, and as I mentioned, audit landings, and we
just need to get a better understanding of what's going
on in the nighttime fishery. And then kind of once
you have that, you can say, okay, well, should we
make any adjustments or does this have an impact or
(12:23):
does it not. It just helps you make a better
informed decision if there's a need for any sort of
additional changes to regulations.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
One of the regulations I can think of that certainly
impacts recreational as well was it was very popular to
go out about nine o'clock ten o'clock at night, get
a limit, go back, go back after midnight, get another
limit and we mix that a while back.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, and you know, that's one of those things that
I think it certainly eases enforcement, sure, you know, and
you know, it's people could take advantage of that situation
that you do and they were you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I mean it was legal. I mean, it was it
was the law. I mean, it wasn't like they're coaching,
that's just what they did. But that was that extra
pressure on it. And uh, but that's just part of that.
You know, we talked about unique fish, but it's also
part of a unique fishery. There's no other fishery that's
kind of managed like this or has this history in Texas,
you know, and it's you know, it's way different than
(13:31):
speckled trout, you know. I mean, we don't have a
gigging or boat fishing or fishery for speckled trout and
it's not a commercial fishery. And but flounder have this
unique status among the fish that we look at in Texas.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, they do, they do, and you know, it's it's
you know, there's a lot of people that that would
like to see flounder become a game fish, which would mean,
you could only catch it by by hook and line,
and you know, that would take it away from the
commercial fishery, and that would take away the recreational gigging.
And I just think it's important to recognize that both
(14:07):
of those things, the sustainable commercial fishing of it and
sustainable recreational gigging of it, do have some value, and
not only economic value, but kind of a cultural value
to our state and other states. And so you know,
before you do something that drastic as to have the
(14:29):
discussion about eliminate gigging altogether, like I said, you need
to understand what are the impacts of it, and then
you can make a sort of a refined, refined decision.
But it is again it's we can't put our heads
in the sand on this deal. Sure, And it is
interesting that you know, now we find ourselves in the
(14:50):
situation where the fish that probably needs the most help,
you know, has the most liberal bag limit at this
moment when you talk about the Big Three.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
That's the thing I keep going back to. And you know,
back when there was in the in the like mid
two thousands, like around two thousand and five to ten,
there was just really contentious stuff over trout. I mean,
a guy I'm still a friend with would fly a
flag done import man's field with no croakers, you know,
live bait, and you know, it was just all this
(15:22):
war over these big trout. And I remember, not him,
but fishing with the guy at one time, and it
was one of these guys I know that I was
kind of friends with. It was like if you kept
any trout like over twenty inches, you know, it was
like you're the Antichrist. And this guy cast like a
twenty three inch flounder with me and goes to put
it in the live in the live well, and I'm like,
(15:44):
uh hey, bro, he goes, oh that's great. I said,
hold on, mister conservationist, I said, the difference is the
flounder are doing a lot worse than the trout are,
So what's the difference to your pale? You know. But
it's some of that perception, you know. And I just
thought that was funny. We had kind of an argument,
and it was his boat, so we got to keep
(16:05):
the fish. But you know, that's where I started my
funder Revolution project fifteen years ago this year to promote
voluntary release of flounder measuring twenty inches or more. It's
what we've done with bass, and we've done with redfish
and everything else. Yeah, is you know, putting back those
more breeding sized fish. And by the way, Fund of
Revolution initially gave out replicas. We gave out those for
(16:30):
five years of the program, and I think we gave
out like almost I think eighty something replicas or something
like that for every month. The biggest one release we've
been doing the coins. And by the way, the entire
run of this, CCA was the sponsor of funder Revolution,
So thank you guys from CCA Texas. And we've been
giving out coins in the last five years. I think
(16:51):
we've given out three hundred plus of the what I
call the save the Flatfish coin, which is your twenty
inch back, and then you got the saddle blanket coin,
which is the twenty four inch or better one. Right,
We've given out like maybe one hundred of those, and
then a bunch of first flounder things. So voluntary catch
and release is also a part of this equation, and
(17:14):
you know, anglers have caught on to some of that,
but it's just just such an interesting thing. Like I'm
not on here advocating for anything tonight. I just want
to talk about, like, this is a totally different managed fishery,
a totally different fishery just biologically, you know, than anything
else that we deal with. And let's just go back
to something real quick though. You had mentioned closures and
(17:38):
things in other states as well. These closures in places
like North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida came way before Texas.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, and North Carolina is a little bit different because
they they actually they manage their fishery slightly different than
the other states. And when they determined that their fishery
is is at certain statuses, they refer to it as
either have been overfished or currently undergoing overfishing or or both.
(18:13):
And so they they have different management measures based on
where the fishery is at. And unfortunately, their fishery is
is in the tank, and so they've had these drastic closures,
not just a fall migration spawning closure. I mean, they've
you know, and I don't want to I don't want
to misquote what it exactly is, but it's like extremely
(18:37):
limited windows of opportunity to harvest, like a one week
season or something something to that effect.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
So something comparable to what we've had in red snapper before.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Very compare exactly. That's a great comparison, like that sort
of draconian measure, and I don't want to say draconian,
but just significant measure to try to get try to
help recover the fishery. And and so you know, that's
that's probably the most extreme, uh as far as closures go.
(19:07):
And you know, again Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas on
the Gulf Coast have their fall migration spawn enclosures and
the Gulf really really you know, upper Texas Coast and
Louisiana have the stronghold of the flounder population right now.
(19:30):
And so it's it's it's significant as you kind of
let off this whole conversation and begin with it's significant
that Louisiana has a closure and that should tell everybody that, oh, dang,
this must really yeah, this is not good.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I mean recently they were like, you know, far more
fish than Texas and they're just a state that has
decided over the years that they didn't have to make
adjustments as much. When we come back on more outdoors,
we'll talk more about flounders. Shane Bano from the Coastal
Conservation Association welcome back to More Outdoors on News Talk
(20:06):
five sixty KLBI. Follow me on YouTube at Chestermore Wildlife
Journalists an Investigator, my blog at Higher Calling Dot at
the chestermoren Instagram, and get the podcast of More Outdoors
via the iHeartRadio app. Talking more about flounder with Shane
Bnow of CCH But they've seen numbers and everything from
(20:27):
redfish to the flounder, and they're changing some of their
you know, their management strategies over there because they're responding
to what they're seeing out there. But when Louisiana changes flounder,
because you got to realize when you go to Louisiana
and go fishing with fishing guy, most of the time
it's just a harvest based fishery. It's Dutch.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Just what you do.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You go there, you get your fish. And so for flounder,
which was a nice bonus for a lot of those
coastal guides, it's sort of be off limits. Is it
just shows kind of like how intense that is and
an interesting thing. So I live on you know, Sabine
Lake are Sabine Lake if it was a crow flies
is about six miles through here from me for the marsh,
(21:05):
and you know, when Texas had the closure before Louisiana
had a closure, you know, their people would run over Louisiana,
you know, and they'd still run Louisiana because of limits
were different, right. But when the there was a big
fishery over at a place that we call the it
was the Pogy Factory or whatever it was, you know,
(21:27):
they would have the Pogy old Pogi Factory. And I've
been over there. It's unbelievable. But there were people that
were bringing like ice chests full a flounder across the border.
And there was a story that I wrote about four
years ago of some guys that caught with like one
hundred and fifty flounder or something like that. So is
(21:47):
illegal harvest like on a recreational side like that, or
illegal commercial harvest along the Gulf coast something that's maybe
a contributing factor?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Oh well, yeah, I mean absolutely. You put in regulations
that are that are and nowadays based off of you know,
projected modeling of what what sort of spawning benefit that
that will give you, and if if that modeling or
if you know, if that calculation isn't if you're not
(22:18):
able to ascertain or put in some sort of you know, buffer,
some sort of accountability for over harvest, illegal harvest, what
what have you. Then then yeah, your regulations aren't going
to be as as effective, and so you know, it's
it's important that when people observe these things happening to
(22:44):
utilize as the resources they have two to you know,
let let the game wardens know or law enforcement know,
so that you know, we we have to self police
and we have to do our part as conservationists to
ensure that this this fishery is there for future generation
and that enforcement component is one hundred percent necessary and
(23:07):
part of the whole management philosophy for this, not only
this fish, but all fisheries.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I wrote an article probably six years ago and five
years ago about just you I've been hearing these stories,
you know, and so about like illegal harvest, and then
I got heat for it. You're just trying to stop
people from blah blah blah. And then you know, like
like six months later, it was the story with the
guy that the guys had a couple of hundred flounder
or whatever. So there is definitely that on recreational, commercial
(23:38):
side all of it. I remember seeing a helicopter photo
that a guy in Louisiana shared with me like fifteen
years ago of shrimp boats in an area of Louisiana
and the channel that were set up on the exact
spot they migrate through, and they were filling that thing
up with flounder. You know, they were filling it up
(23:58):
with flounder. And so it was one of the copters
that came from the rigs and they flew over there
and happened to see it and got snap, snap some
photos and share it or whatever. So there's all kinds
of things that go on, and you gotta this is
what we gotta do, is go put this stuff into
the light. But the question that there's gonna be some
people taking notes because this is flounder. Trout's the number
(24:19):
one controversy. Anything with trout we get stuffed on at us.
But flounder's number two right under it, right, So there's
gonna be people taking notes tonight. So with all of this,
with all the measures that have been taken, I mean,
you know, back in like eight oh nine, the commercial
bag limit was cut in half. You know, we had
(24:42):
the restricting of going out you know, at ten o'clock
and going back out of midnight. We had recreational cut
several of those. Now we have closure in these things,
but you said the main cause is the conditions in
the gulf. So do these other regulations matter if they're
(25:03):
still having a problem spawning, Because I know someone I
know the answer of this, but I know someone's going
to ask that question.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, no, and that's a fair that's a fair question. Yeah,
it's an important question to address. Speaking specifically to the
closure regulation is a you have to capitalize on those
windows of opportunity when we have cold, cold winters. Obviously,
(25:31):
we can't project what how cold the winters are going
to be, when the fronts are going to come through,
and that's why you have this sort of prolonged, you know,
forty five day window to try to you know, hopefully
let the fish get the opportunity to go off short
to spawn and then cross your fingers, we have a
colder winter for successful recruitment. Without that, if you're just
(25:54):
hammering these fish as they're going off shore, you're removing
you're you know, you just think about it. That is,
right at the moment where they're about to spawn, they're
loaded with eggs, they're going off shore of doing their
thing and you're taking all of these fish out out
of the fishery, and so the spawning closure has the
(26:15):
potential to have significant impact on successful recruitment in the
following years. But again we're not in total control. We
just have to capitalize on the opportunities when it's most
conducive for you know, the fish to hopefully successfully spawn
and recruit. And it's not just the closure, it's you know,
(26:35):
you have to have many, many approaches, you know, use
different tools in the tool bag, as the commonly used
phrase and fisheries management, and and you have to have
this you know, sort of broad approach to you know,
not just a bag limit, not just to size limit.
(26:56):
You have to do all these sorts of things specifically fishing.
So if you think of redfish, we have a spawning
biomass closure of that fishery. We just do it with
the size limit. Yeah, we're trying to do it more
now with speckled trout with a size limit. With flounder,
we're not really approaching it with a size limit as much,
(27:17):
but we're just doing it from a seasonal aspect. So
when you think about it, those terms protecting or conserving
the spawning stock biomass. Then it sort of makes sense
of why the closures are in place.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, for sure, when you talked about the Gulf temperatures
and that and that crucial window of like prime spawning,
isn't there an aspect where it can shift sex in
what spawns?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, And you know, I don't want to get the
temperatures wrong, so I'm not going to say exactly what temperature.
I've been out of that world for a little bit
too long to give recommendations on that, but think about
it in terms of and again, the ideal window is
in those mid to upper sixties fahrenheit. When you get
outside of the window, you're putting stress on the fish.
(28:07):
And so when a fish is stressed it they're more
likely to be a male. It takes less energy to
be a male than it does to be a female,
and so their sex determination is not does not happen
at their final sex determination does not happen at fertilization.
(28:27):
It happens later on as they in their early juvenile stage,
so past their larval stage, but in their early juvenile stage.
So if they're stressed at that time, they'll they're females.
They'll revert to males. If they're already males, they'll stay males.
If you're in that ideal zone, you should get about
(28:50):
a fifty to fifty mix of males. If you get
way outside the window of a temperature window at least,
then you won't have any survival units, have you know,
you'll have mortality at that point. So yeah, if all
things equal and everything's copasetic and ideal, you'll have fifty
to fifty six male to female, and anything outside of
(29:14):
ideal conditions you'll skew more towards males.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
So is this why you'll have a year where it's
like an unbelievable amount of little flounder little males. And
because I hear people like, I'm catching tons of them,
but they're all like eleven twelve inches, it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Could be and it it also could be the year
following a really successful recruitment because those those females, a
one year old female is going to be about that size.
You know, males rarely get over thirteen inches. I mean,
they do get bigger, but most of them are going
to be you know, fourteen thirteen and under and so,
(29:54):
and it's also believed this is interesting. It's also believed
I mean, there's been some scientific research that study this
out of Louisiana.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
When we come back, we'll wrap up our conversation with
Shame Benow. Welcome back to More Outdoors on News Talk
five sixty klv This is chesterom or don't forget. You
can listen to the podcast a program via the iHeartRadio
apper going to KLVI dot com, click on the podcast
link and you'll see archives of the program. Wrapping up
our conversation with Shae Benow of CCA about flounder.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
So there's a lot that we still need to understand
and study about this fish that can help us make,
you know, a little bit better management decisions. But that
sex determination piece and that temperature aspect to that has
been a very valuable piece of information not only for
understanding their live history, but also for the hatchery production
of these fish when you try to enhance the bays
(30:47):
with finger links.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And that's what I'm going to go into next here.
But I got to ask about this. I mean, so
I'm intrigued as where these flounder exactly go in the Gulf.
I mean, I know there's a lot more tagging in
terms of with you know, maybe you know satellite technology
and things like that that are going our GPS. Is
there any data new data on where flounder go, how
(31:10):
far out in the golf they might go that kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, they they they they'll go pretty far. I mean
they'll go out to depths to ninety two one hundred feet, but.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
You're out of Sabine Bro. That's a long way out,
long ways. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Now, they don't all leave. We know that. And as
we as we dredge our ship channels deeper and deeper,
I think that there's going to be more and more
of these fish not not needing to leave or not
desiring to leave if they're able to find a depth
(31:46):
that has a preferential barometric pressure and and they may
feel like they're offshore, so they're staying in ship channels
more often. But geographically where they are in the golf.
As far as massive spawning aggregations, I'm not aware of
research that's been done to look at that. It may
(32:06):
have been done, I'm just not privy to it. But
they like it. They like deep deep waters.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
You know. It's interesting. Back our good friend Captain Skip
James a passaway a few years ago. Years ago, one
of his clients was a commercial diver and in the
gulf on the upper coast and said that, and I
don't remember how far out it was, but he went
to work on one rig and the bottom of that
rig was just loaded with flounder, like they were flounder
(32:32):
all over it, and it was like in the winter time.
So that thought that was just interesting little yeah, and
flounder evidence.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And flounder like structure. If you think about, you know,
how you target that fishery inshore, you know, changes in
profile of the bottom, you know, cuts and guts and
things like that. So if they're able to find that offshore,
that's going to be the areas where they're probably attracted to.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Absolutely. Let's switch gears here. The production of flounder and
hatcheries facilities. I mean, this began pretty good while ago,
and it's come a long way because you kind of
give us in a nutshell, like you know where this
started in, like you know where we're at this point.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, Well, you know so that you know, flounder flounder
hattery production is a concept that was not born in
in Texas. You know, we we owe a lot of
the work that we've been able to achieve due to
the early pioneers in this deal in the United States,
which come out of North Carolina and South Carolina. And
(33:36):
so their researchers up there, Harry Daniels and doctor Watton Nobby.
You know, they did a lot of the early work
with with flounder research and spawning and larvae production, and
they were looking at it not only to help the
fish recover from a natural you know, from the natural population,
but also as a way to promote the aquaculture of
(33:58):
those those But in Texas it began and you know,
the idea of it was born around two thousand and six.
And I believe the first fish we released were when
Sabine was nine, if I'm.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Not mistaken, it was on nine because my daughter, my
daughter was there.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
So yeah, it was only in two thousand and nine
there at outside of Bridge City. You picked the stocking site.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Old River Cove right there, and uh it was that
little Bayou stream that comes through there that's got a
lot of good marsh and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah. So you know, three years after the you know,
we we started getting broodstock and you were a part
of that early broodstock collection and O seven and we
were able to spawn the fish in O nine actually
put small fingerlings out in two thousand and nine, and
you know, it wasn't many fish, a few hundred, but
(34:55):
from that the program has just just grown. And so
it's grown both in numbers of fingerlings released, and we're
not in the millions yet, uh you know, as far
as annual production like we are with trout and redfish,
but we're I say we collectively parks and Wildlife and
and the you know, the greater conservation UH efforts you included,
(35:18):
we're we're at they're able to release a few hundred
thousand every every year. And we also now have new
buildings with funds raised by private money uh CCA Parks
and Wildlife Foundation and other groups. We have new buildings
both in Lake Jackson and uh in Corpus Christie, and
(35:39):
those are dedicated to flying of production with the temperature
control and everything that you need to feed to feed
the larvae. And so the program's growing and they're getting
better and better, and it's now really it is a
viable part of the whole stock enhancement profile. And there's
efforts underway to increase that production and increase the staffing
(36:00):
to make that happen.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Is it still a situation where they're wanting to only
take flounder from say, Galveston and put them back in Galveston,
spawn Galveston fish and put them back because that was
the early days of that And if so, can you
explain why.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, that practice is still generally adhered to, and it's
something that really Parks and Wildlife takes a concerted effort
to ensure that we're not changing anything as far as
the genetics of the natural population. And it's a focus
(36:36):
that really started with spec with spotted sea trout spec trout,
but we just naturally applied it to southern flounder. But
they do migrate offshore and spawning populations mix offshore. There's
no telling that fish from Galveston is going to recruit
back to Galveston. Likely they're going to Sabine, or they're
(36:57):
going to come down to Matagorda. Really is just going
to depend on occurrence and how they come into our
base systems. So it's an extra step of precaution. We
don't want a black eye like you know some of
the salmon fisheries had on the West Coast with sort
of genetic bottlenecking of broodstock, and so that's that's the
(37:19):
reason for that. We we don't want to put anything
into Galveston Bay that you know, perhaps came from somewhere
else and changed the genetics in Galveston Bay. It's probably
an unnecessary step again because the population spawn off shore,
but it's not that difficult of a thing to the
Y or two and it's better to play it safe.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Just I always thought that was just super interesting, you know,
like the level of care that was being taken to
make sure these things worked out. It wasn't like this
was just gonna Willy Nearly go catch a bunch of
flying and we want to make sure this is done
for long term.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yes, sess and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, And talking about CCA's role in all of this,
you guys have contributed greatly to helping refurbish things like
at CEA Center Texas and yeah, other places, and CCA
has had its hand. I've been there with them, I've
seen it. I've covered this for as long as there's
been a flunder conservation movement, CCA, in particular CCA Texas
(38:17):
has been neck deep in it. So I just want
to salute you guys for being leaders and visionaries and
helping this fishery.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I would say, just you know, in talking about c
Center and the Marine Development Center, between equipment and tanks
and buildings, and then what's gone on at Port raansis
at UTMSI just off the top of my head. Yeah,
don't take this to the bank, but I'd say we're
north of one point two million, maybe closer to one
(38:46):
to five as far as investments and larva culture research
and flounder research. Yeah. Chester, And if I could just
take one minute to tell you thank you. I don't
know that your listeners know that the level of engagement
you've had on this issue, specifically flounder and the sacrifices
(39:07):
that you've made for fifteen something years now. And so
to the listeners, you know, Chester and I knew he
got to know each other when I started Parks and
Wildlife in six and he lives again, as he mentioned,
he lives near Sabine Lake. He would drive to Poor Day,
(39:29):
he would drive to Late Jackson. He would go all
up and down the coast just to get pictures, just
to talk, just to get engaged on the subject. His
own gas money, his own personal time. He is the
champion of Southern flounder conservation in my mind, and I
have a lot of appreciation for you, brother, and thanks
(39:49):
for having me on and and thank yous forward to
many more good years of this sort.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Absolutely brother, thank you so much, and thanks for coming
on more outdoors, Thanks so much for listening. Ask me
at the Chestermoor on Instagram, and have a great, great
outdoors weekend.
Welcome to More Outdoors News Talk five sixty KLVI. This
is Chester More and it is November, and most of
the time in November people will be out fishing for
flounder the fall flounder on but harvest is prohibited from
November first through December the fourteenth, And believe it or not,
Louisiana prohibits harvest. They actually dial back a little earlier
(00:22):
than ours because of problems with southern flounder, and to
talk about southern flounder, the conservation needs and just to
fish themselves. A good friend of mine has probably been
on this show twenty times over the years, Shane, and
though he is the Coastal Advocacy director for our friends
over at the Coastal Conservation Association. Welcome to the program, Chester.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Good to be with you again and excited to talk
about something that we both deeply, deeply care about. So
thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, for sure, it's an incredible fish. And I think
one of the things that people who just kind of
like bild flounder fishing every once in a while bycatch
flounder and they're happy. I don't think they understand what
a kind of a unique life cycle a flounder has
I mean, they're really a different fish. Can you kind
of go through that basic life cycle of a flounder force?
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, happy too, And it's good. It is good for
people to have an understanding of what this fish goes
through to become a flat fish in the early stages
of their life and then also what they go through
to ensure that, you know, the successful generations are are
recruited into the base system. So flounder start their life
(01:37):
cycle offshore. Most of them start their life cycle offshore
as a tiny larvae. As you know, flounder spawn in
the winter time. So and that's why we have to
fall my migration closures to allow the fish to go
offshore to spawn. And we'll get into the reasons why.
(01:57):
But anyways, the babies, the larvae start their lives offshore,
and they drift into our base systems and settle out
and recruit into the base systems where they'll the basystem
serves as a nursery for those fish and that's where
they'll they'll grow through their juvenile stages and as they
become adults, they'll do an annual migration offshore to to
(02:22):
spawn again. And the way that they've evolved is you know,
they plounder are really a cold natured fish. They prefer
prefer colder temperatures, and they need a stable environment for
survival in those early life stages. So there's a critical
window for flounder flounders to spawn regarding temperature. There's a
(02:47):
critical temperature window, and then there's also a critical window
for successful survival of the larvae and recruitment of those
larvae into the estuaries. And there's also a critical temperature
window for sex determination, and so all of these things
play into what our populations of flounder look like on
(03:10):
the Texas coast. But the larvae cycle lasts about sixty days.
It could be longer, it could be a little bit
shorter depending on the temperature, but ideally the temperatures around
the mid to upper sixties is what they prefer in
degrees fahrenheit, So sixty seven sixty eight is kind of
an ideal temperature water temperature for them in the Gulf. Yeah,
(03:36):
so when we have really warm winters, temperatures are seventy
or seventy three degrees average in the Gulf of Mexico,
that's a little bit too warm for a successful recruitment
into the bay system. So you know, the hatcheries have
gotten a really really good at southern flounder spawning and
(04:01):
larval raising because they've really dialed in what it takes
temperature wise, what it takes to successfully grow these fish.
But yes, offshore, you need stable water temperatures upper sixties,
and so we want for flounder, we kind of want colder, colder,
colder winter times, and typically when you have a colder winter,
(04:22):
that next year you'll have following the higher recruitment of fish.
So across their entire geographic range from northern Mexico, you know,
to Florida and then up the up the East coast
all the way up to you know, North Carolina Virginia,
we're seeing decreased population sizes of flounders and the main
(04:48):
contributing factor is believed to be warm, warmer water temperatures offshore.
And so a lot of states have implemented these closures
in the and as you mentioned, ours is November one
to December fourteenth. Louisiana's starts in October. I think mid
October that Alabama has a closure. So every Gulf state
(05:13):
now has a closure except Mississippi. The only state that
doesn't have one, and then some of the states on
their eastern seaboard, I have different regulations to try to
help help this species while it's in this period of
downward downward recruitment trends. And so, yeah, we we do
(05:35):
what we can. We're not in total control, so we
got to kind of, you know, use the tools that
we have available to us. And the one that's that's
most widely used now in addition to bag limits and
size restrictions is the seasonal closure to let the fish spawn.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It's a really interesting thing because I got involved in
found flounder conservation a long, long, very early the end
of my career, very very early, and the problem that
was pointed out the most back then was shrimping related bycatch,
and shrimping related bycatch was addressed in a lot of ways.
We can talk a little bit about bycatch because that
(06:17):
if people have any kind of history understanding flounder rags
and things like that, bycatch was big talk back in
the mid nineties to early two thousands.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
Yeah, I mean in bycatch is still something that's important
to discuss and it's still something that it can have
an impact on fisheries and certainly, you know the way
that flounder utilized the water column, meaning that they're mostly
on the bottom parts of the water column, they are
highly susceptible to bycatch. And it's not just southern flounder
(06:48):
that we think of. It's all sorts of flatfish. And
I think we have somewhere in the low twenties species
different species of flatfish.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
And well, that's interesting because when I was a kid,
I remember getting like, you know, we would go buy
a little a little pack of shrimp, and often it
would have a little flatfish in it, and I'm sure
most of the time that was not a southern flounder.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, I mean, it could be sols, it could be tallfish,
you know, maybe maybe small golf flounder. We have, like
I said, we have numerous species. But yeah, that's you know,
bycatch is an important issue. The range of bycatch to
pounds of bye catch to pounds of shrimp has been studied,
(07:31):
and different studies tell you different things, but it's anywhere
between four to twelve pounds of bycatch for every pounds
of shrimp. So there's a lot of different species that
could be negatively affected by that activity. And an as
you mentioned in the nineties there was a big focus
to reduce that effort in our based systems and that
(07:53):
that that has helped with a number of species, but
we still have by catch and we have you know,
targeted catch of croker and other things that that can
have effect on, you know, the population dynamics. But for
flounder specifically, you know, it has helped, but that again
(08:15):
there's there's no panacea for any of these efforts to
recover fisheries. You have to have a holistic approach. By
catches one of them. Uh, and now we've we're trying
to address it through these closures.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, you know, I remember being with Shannon Thompkins, who
was out the writer for the Houston Chronicle with parks
on my life going out of Chema to do when
the bycatch devices were put on and the second wave
of those, and the reason I remember this was because
they caught like a pound pounds and a half gulf flounder,
(08:52):
which I had never only golf funder I've ever seen,
was about the size of my palm, you know, and
it was a really big gulf flounder, which is another
species of flounder. And so we have the history of
trying to address it back then. But there comes a
point where there's different understandings of what's happening, and another
thing we have to talk about. I mean, of course,
(09:13):
we know that recreational fishing has been changed. I mean,
at one point we could keep twenty flounder in Texas.
I mean it was like the wild West, you know,
but you got into flounder or unique because you can
gig them. You know, you can't bowfish or gig a
trout or a redfish or stuff like that. But there
(09:37):
is this traditional thing in Texas a flounder gigging. And
that is not only from a recreational standpoint. Is there's
a commercial fishery that pretty much utilizes like the gigging
and things like that. And I believe there's a component,
or at least has been a component of some of
that bycatch being in the commercial part of that as well.
When we come back, we'll talk more about flounder with
(09:57):
Shane Benot from Cca. Welcome back to More Outdoors on
News Talk five sixty klv I. This is Chester More.
Always catch our show six to seven pm Central Standard
time here on News Talk five sixty k l v I.
Via the iHeartRadio app on the podcast and always catch
(10:17):
my work at Texas Fishing Game. I blog at Highercalling
dot net and follow me on Instagram at the Chester More.
Continue our conversation with Shane b Though of c c
A on flounder. Can we talk about that aspect of
that on the commercial side.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, well we do. You know, flounder is a commercially
viable finfish and it is it is really mostly selective fishing,
as you mentioned, selective fishing through gigging. And you know,
there's not a whole lot of commercial finfish licenses out
there anymore, the ones that are obviously fairly valuable. But
(10:56):
we've we've you know, the state has bought quite a
few of those finfish licenses back. But yes, they're they're
bag limit is thirty fish and there you know, they
report their landings to Texas Parks and Wilife, and Parks
and Wilife tracks landings over time, and you know, I
think there probably could be a greater emphasis put on auditing,
(11:19):
you know, landings and ensuring that land all landings are
getting reported. But we also need to recognize that the
nature of gigging has has changed substantially in the last
twenty years. Technology has gotten better, lighting systems have gotten better.
(11:40):
But with with gigging, there's no bycatch. I mean it
is selective targeted fishing. You're not there's no hooking, mortality
and things like that. So I mean there's arguments to
be made that's a very efficient and effective way to
get fish out of the fishery. But we need to
recognize that the popularity of gigging from boats has increased substantially,
(12:02):
So we need to look at, you know, possibly look
at the level of that activity, how many people are
doing that, and as I mentioned, audit landings, and we
just need to get a better understanding of what's going
on in the nighttime fishery. And then kind of once
you have that, you can say, okay, well, should we
make any adjustments or does this have an impact or
(12:23):
does it not. It just helps you make a better
informed decision if there's a need for any sort of
additional changes to regulations.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
One of the regulations I can think of that certainly
impacts recreational as well was it was very popular to
go out about nine o'clock ten o'clock at night, get
a limit, go back, go back after midnight, get another
limit and we mix that a while back.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
Yeah, and you know, that's one of those things that
I think it certainly eases enforcement, sure, you know, and
you know, it's people could take advantage of that situation
that you do and they were you know, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I mean it was legal. I mean, it was it
was the law. I mean, it wasn't like they're coaching,
that's just what they did. But that was that extra
pressure on it. And uh, but that's just part of that.
You know, we talked about unique fish, but it's also
part of a unique fishery. There's no other fishery that's
kind of managed like this or has this history in Texas,
you know, and it's you know, it's way different than
(13:31):
speckled trout, you know. I mean, we don't have a
gigging or boat fishing or fishery for speckled trout and
it's not a commercial fishery. And but flounder have this
unique status among the fish that we look at in Texas.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, they do, they do, and you know, it's it's
you know, there's a lot of people that that would
like to see flounder become a game fish, which would mean,
you could only catch it by by hook and line,
and you know, that would take it away from the
commercial fishery, and that would take away the recreational gigging.
And I just think it's important to recognize that both
(14:07):
of those things, the sustainable commercial fishing of it and
sustainable recreational gigging of it, do have some value, and
not only economic value, but kind of a cultural value
to our state and other states. And so you know,
before you do something that drastic as to have the
(14:29):
discussion about eliminate gigging altogether, like I said, you need
to understand what are the impacts of it, and then
you can make a sort of a refined, refined decision.
But it is again it's we can't put our heads
in the sand on this deal. Sure, And it is
interesting that you know, now we find ourselves in the
(14:50):
situation where the fish that probably needs the most help,
you know, has the most liberal bag limit at this
moment when you talk about the Big Three.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
That's the thing I keep going back to. And you know,
back when there was in the in the like mid
two thousands, like around two thousand and five to ten,
there was just really contentious stuff over trout. I mean,
a guy I'm still a friend with would fly a
flag done import man's field with no croakers, you know,
live bait, and you know, it was just all this
(15:22):
war over these big trout. And I remember, not him,
but fishing with the guy at one time, and it
was one of these guys I know that I was
kind of friends with. It was like if you kept
any trout like over twenty inches, you know, it was
like you're the Antichrist. And this guy cast like a
twenty three inch flounder with me and goes to put
it in the live in the live well, and I'm like,
(15:44):
uh hey, bro, he goes, oh that's great. I said,
hold on, mister conservationist, I said, the difference is the
flounder are doing a lot worse than the trout are,
So what's the difference to your pale? You know. But
it's some of that perception, you know. And I just
thought that was funny. We had kind of an argument,
and it was his boat, so we got to keep
(16:05):
the fish. But you know, that's where I started my
funder Revolution project fifteen years ago this year to promote
voluntary release of flounder measuring twenty inches or more. It's
what we've done with bass, and we've done with redfish
and everything else. Yeah, is you know, putting back those
more breeding sized fish. And by the way, Fund of
Revolution initially gave out replicas. We gave out those for
(16:30):
five years of the program, and I think we gave
out like almost I think eighty something replicas or something
like that for every month. The biggest one release we've
been doing the coins. And by the way, the entire
run of this, CCA was the sponsor of funder Revolution,
So thank you guys from CCA Texas. And we've been
giving out coins in the last five years. I think
(16:51):
we've given out three hundred plus of the what I
call the save the Flatfish coin, which is your twenty
inch back, and then you got the saddle blanket coin,
which is the twenty four inch or better one. Right,
We've given out like maybe one hundred of those, and
then a bunch of first flounder things. So voluntary catch
and release is also a part of this equation, and
(17:14):
you know, anglers have caught on to some of that,
but it's just just such an interesting thing. Like I'm
not on here advocating for anything tonight. I just want
to talk about, like, this is a totally different managed fishery,
a totally different fishery just biologically, you know, than anything
else that we deal with. And let's just go back
to something real quick though. You had mentioned closures and
(17:38):
things in other states as well. These closures in places
like North Carolina, South Carolina, Florida came way before Texas.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
Yeah, and North Carolina is a little bit different because
they they actually they manage their fishery slightly different than
the other states. And when they determined that their fishery
is is at certain statuses, they refer to it as
either have been overfished or currently undergoing overfishing or or both.
(18:13):
And so they they have different management measures based on
where the fishery is at. And unfortunately, their fishery is
is in the tank, and so they've had these drastic closures,
not just a fall migration spawning closure. I mean, they've
you know, and I don't want to I don't want
to misquote what it exactly is, but it's like extremely
(18:37):
limited windows of opportunity to harvest, like a one week
season or something something to that effect.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
So something comparable to what we've had in red snapper before.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Very compare exactly. That's a great comparison, like that sort
of draconian measure, and I don't want to say draconian,
but just significant measure to try to get try to
help recover the fishery. And and so you know, that's
that's probably the most extreme, uh as far as closures go.
(19:07):
And you know, again Florida, Alabama, Louisiana, and Texas on
the Gulf Coast have their fall migration spawn enclosures and
the Gulf really really you know, upper Texas Coast and
Louisiana have the stronghold of the flounder population right now.
(19:30):
And so it's it's it's significant as you kind of
let off this whole conversation and begin with it's significant
that Louisiana has a closure and that should tell everybody that, oh, dang,
this must really yeah, this is not good.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
I mean recently they were like, you know, far more
fish than Texas and they're just a state that has
decided over the years that they didn't have to make
adjustments as much. When we come back on more outdoors,
we'll talk more about flounders. Shane Bano from the Coastal
Conservation Association welcome back to More Outdoors on News Talk
(20:06):
five sixty KLBI. Follow me on YouTube at Chestermore Wildlife
Journalists an Investigator, my blog at Higher Calling Dot at
the chestermoren Instagram, and get the podcast of More Outdoors
via the iHeartRadio app. Talking more about flounder with Shane
Bnow of CCH But they've seen numbers and everything from
(20:27):
redfish to the flounder, and they're changing some of their
you know, their management strategies over there because they're responding
to what they're seeing out there. But when Louisiana changes flounder,
because you got to realize when you go to Louisiana
and go fishing with fishing guy, most of the time
it's just a harvest based fishery. It's Dutch.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Just what you do.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You go there, you get your fish. And so for flounder,
which was a nice bonus for a lot of those
coastal guides, it's sort of be off limits. Is it
just shows kind of like how intense that is and
an interesting thing. So I live on you know, Sabine
Lake are Sabine Lake if it was a crow flies
is about six miles through here from me for the marsh,
(21:05):
and you know, when Texas had the closure before Louisiana
had a closure, you know, their people would run over Louisiana,
you know, and they'd still run Louisiana because of limits
were different, right. But when the there was a big
fishery over at a place that we call the it
was the Pogy Factory or whatever it was, you know,
(21:27):
they would have the Pogy old Pogi Factory. And I've
been over there. It's unbelievable. But there were people that
were bringing like ice chests full a flounder across the border.
And there was a story that I wrote about four
years ago of some guys that caught with like one
hundred and fifty flounder or something like that. So is
(21:47):
illegal harvest like on a recreational side like that, or
illegal commercial harvest along the Gulf coast something that's maybe
a contributing factor?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Oh well, yeah, I mean absolutely. You put in regulations
that are that are and nowadays based off of you know,
projected modeling of what what sort of spawning benefit that
that will give you, and if if that modeling or
if you know, if that calculation isn't if you're not
(22:18):
able to ascertain or put in some sort of you know, buffer,
some sort of accountability for over harvest, illegal harvest, what
what have you. Then then yeah, your regulations aren't going
to be as as effective, and so you know, it's
it's important that when people observe these things happening to
(22:44):
utilize as the resources they have two to you know,
let let the game wardens know or law enforcement know,
so that you know, we we have to self police
and we have to do our part as conservationists to
ensure that this this fishery is there for future generation
and that enforcement component is one hundred percent necessary and
(23:07):
part of the whole management philosophy for this, not only
this fish, but all fisheries.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I wrote an article probably six years ago and five
years ago about just you I've been hearing these stories,
you know, and so about like illegal harvest, and then
I got heat for it. You're just trying to stop
people from blah blah blah. And then you know, like
like six months later, it was the story with the
guy that the guys had a couple of hundred flounder
or whatever. So there is definitely that on recreational, commercial
(23:38):
side all of it. I remember seeing a helicopter photo
that a guy in Louisiana shared with me like fifteen
years ago of shrimp boats in an area of Louisiana
and the channel that were set up on the exact
spot they migrate through, and they were filling that thing
up with flounder. You know, they were filling it up
(23:58):
with flounder. And so it was one of the copters
that came from the rigs and they flew over there
and happened to see it and got snap, snap some
photos and share it or whatever. So there's all kinds
of things that go on, and you gotta this is
what we gotta do, is go put this stuff into
the light. But the question that there's gonna be some
people taking notes because this is flounder. Trout's the number
(24:19):
one controversy. Anything with trout we get stuffed on at us.
But flounder's number two right under it, right, So there's
gonna be people taking notes tonight. So with all of this,
with all the measures that have been taken, I mean,
you know, back in like eight oh nine, the commercial
bag limit was cut in half. You know, we had
(24:42):
the restricting of going out you know, at ten o'clock
and going back out of midnight. We had recreational cut
several of those. Now we have closure in these things,
but you said the main cause is the conditions in
the gulf. So do these other regulations matter if they're
(25:03):
still having a problem spawning, Because I know someone I
know the answer of this, but I know someone's going
to ask that question.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Yeah, no, and that's a fair that's a fair question. Yeah,
it's an important question to address. Speaking specifically to the
closure regulation is a you have to capitalize on those
windows of opportunity when we have cold, cold winters. Obviously,
(25:31):
we can't project what how cold the winters are going
to be, when the fronts are going to come through,
and that's why you have this sort of prolonged, you know,
forty five day window to try to you know, hopefully
let the fish get the opportunity to go off short
to spawn and then cross your fingers, we have a
colder winter for successful recruitment. Without that, if you're just
(25:54):
hammering these fish as they're going off shore, you're removing
you're you know, you just think about it. That is,
right at the moment where they're about to spawn, they're
loaded with eggs, they're going off shore of doing their
thing and you're taking all of these fish out out
of the fishery, and so the spawning closure has the
(26:15):
potential to have significant impact on successful recruitment in the
following years. But again we're not in total control. We
just have to capitalize on the opportunities when it's most
conducive for you know, the fish to hopefully successfully spawn
and recruit. And it's not just the closure, it's you know,
(26:35):
you have to have many, many approaches, you know, use
different tools in the tool bag, as the commonly used
phrase and fisheries management, and and you have to have
this you know, sort of broad approach to you know,
not just a bag limit, not just to size limit.
(26:56):
You have to do all these sorts of things specifically fishing.
So if you think of redfish, we have a spawning
biomass closure of that fishery. We just do it with
the size limit. Yeah, we're trying to do it more
now with speckled trout with a size limit. With flounder,
we're not really approaching it with a size limit as much,
(27:17):
but we're just doing it from a seasonal aspect. So
when you think about it, those terms protecting or conserving
the spawning stock biomass. Then it sort of makes sense
of why the closures are in place.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Yeah, for sure, when you talked about the Gulf temperatures
and that and that crucial window of like prime spawning,
isn't there an aspect where it can shift sex in
what spawns?
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah, And you know, I don't want to get the
temperatures wrong, so I'm not going to say exactly what temperature.
I've been out of that world for a little bit
too long to give recommendations on that, but think about
it in terms of and again, the ideal window is
in those mid to upper sixties fahrenheit. When you get
outside of the window, you're putting stress on the fish.
(28:07):
And so when a fish is stressed it they're more
likely to be a male. It takes less energy to
be a male than it does to be a female,
and so their sex determination is not does not happen
at their final sex determination does not happen at fertilization.
(28:27):
It happens later on as they in their early juvenile stage,
so past their larval stage, but in their early juvenile stage.
So if they're stressed at that time, they'll they're females.
They'll revert to males. If they're already males, they'll stay males.
If you're in that ideal zone, you should get about
(28:50):
a fifty to fifty mix of males. If you get
way outside the window of a temperature window at least,
then you won't have any survival units, have you know,
you'll have mortality at that point. So yeah, if all
things equal and everything's copasetic and ideal, you'll have fifty
to fifty six male to female, and anything outside of
(29:14):
ideal conditions you'll skew more towards males.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
So is this why you'll have a year where it's
like an unbelievable amount of little flounder little males. And
because I hear people like, I'm catching tons of them,
but they're all like eleven twelve inches, it.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Could be and it it also could be the year
following a really successful recruitment because those those females, a
one year old female is going to be about that size.
You know, males rarely get over thirteen inches. I mean,
they do get bigger, but most of them are going
to be you know, fourteen thirteen and under and so,
(29:54):
and it's also believed this is interesting. It's also believed
I mean, there's been some scientific research that study this
out of Louisiana.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
When we come back, we'll wrap up our conversation with
Shame Benow. Welcome back to More Outdoors on News Talk
five sixty klv This is chesterom or don't forget. You
can listen to the podcast a program via the iHeartRadio
apper going to KLVI dot com, click on the podcast
link and you'll see archives of the program. Wrapping up
our conversation with Shae Benow of CCA about flounder.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
So there's a lot that we still need to understand
and study about this fish that can help us make,
you know, a little bit better management decisions. But that
sex determination piece and that temperature aspect to that has
been a very valuable piece of information not only for
understanding their live history, but also for the hatchery production
of these fish when you try to enhance the bays
(30:47):
with finger links.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And that's what I'm going to go into next here.
But I got to ask about this. I mean, so
I'm intrigued as where these flounder exactly go in the Gulf.
I mean, I know there's a lot more tagging in
terms of with you know, maybe you know satellite technology
and things like that that are going our GPS. Is
there any data new data on where flounder go, how
(31:10):
far out in the golf they might go that kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Well, they they they they'll go pretty far. I mean
they'll go out to depths to ninety two one hundred feet, but.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
You're out of Sabine Bro. That's a long way out,
long ways. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Now, they don't all leave. We know that. And as
we as we dredge our ship channels deeper and deeper,
I think that there's going to be more and more
of these fish not not needing to leave or not
desiring to leave if they're able to find a depth
(31:46):
that has a preferential barometric pressure and and they may
feel like they're offshore, so they're staying in ship channels
more often. But geographically where they are in the golf.
As far as massive spawning aggregations, I'm not aware of
research that's been done to look at that. It may
(32:06):
have been done, I'm just not privy to it. But
they like it. They like deep deep waters.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
You know. It's interesting. Back our good friend Captain Skip
James a passaway a few years ago. Years ago, one
of his clients was a commercial diver and in the
gulf on the upper coast and said that, and I
don't remember how far out it was, but he went
to work on one rig and the bottom of that
rig was just loaded with flounder, like they were flounder
(32:32):
all over it, and it was like in the winter time.
So that thought that was just interesting little yeah, and
flounder evidence.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
And flounder like structure. If you think about, you know,
how you target that fishery inshore, you know, changes in
profile of the bottom, you know, cuts and guts and
things like that. So if they're able to find that offshore,
that's going to be the areas where they're probably attracted to.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Absolutely. Let's switch gears here. The production of flounder and
hatcheries facilities. I mean, this began pretty good while ago,
and it's come a long way because you kind of
give us in a nutshell, like you know where this
started in, like you know where we're at this point.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Yeah, Well, you know so that you know, flounder flounder
hattery production is a concept that was not born in
in Texas. You know, we we owe a lot of
the work that we've been able to achieve due to
the early pioneers in this deal in the United States,
which come out of North Carolina and South Carolina. And
(33:36):
so their researchers up there, Harry Daniels and doctor Watton Nobby.
You know, they did a lot of the early work
with with flounder research and spawning and larvae production, and
they were looking at it not only to help the
fish recover from a natural you know, from the natural population,
but also as a way to promote the aquaculture of
(33:58):
those those But in Texas it began and you know,
the idea of it was born around two thousand and six.
And I believe the first fish we released were when
Sabine was nine, if I'm.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Not mistaken, it was on nine because my daughter, my
daughter was there.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
So yeah, it was only in two thousand and nine
there at outside of Bridge City. You picked the stocking site.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Old River Cove right there, and uh it was that
little Bayou stream that comes through there that's got a
lot of good marsh and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
Yeah. So you know, three years after the you know,
we we started getting broodstock and you were a part
of that early broodstock collection and O seven and we
were able to spawn the fish in O nine actually
put small fingerlings out in two thousand and nine, and
you know, it wasn't many fish, a few hundred, but
(34:55):
from that the program has just just grown. And so
it's grown both in numbers of fingerlings released, and we're
not in the millions yet, uh you know, as far
as annual production like we are with trout and redfish,
but we're I say we collectively parks and Wildlife and
and the you know, the greater conservation UH efforts you included,
(35:18):
we're we're at they're able to release a few hundred
thousand every every year. And we also now have new
buildings with funds raised by private money uh CCA Parks
and Wildlife Foundation and other groups. We have new buildings
both in Lake Jackson and uh in Corpus Christie, and
(35:39):
those are dedicated to flying of production with the temperature
control and everything that you need to feed to feed
the larvae. And so the program's growing and they're getting
better and better, and it's now really it is a
viable part of the whole stock enhancement profile. And there's
efforts underway to increase that production and increase the staffing
(36:00):
to make that happen.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Is it still a situation where they're wanting to only
take flounder from say, Galveston and put them back in Galveston,
spawn Galveston fish and put them back because that was
the early days of that And if so, can you
explain why.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, that practice is still generally adhered to, and it's
something that really Parks and Wildlife takes a concerted effort
to ensure that we're not changing anything as far as
the genetics of the natural population. And it's a focus
(36:36):
that really started with spec with spotted sea trout spec trout,
but we just naturally applied it to southern flounder. But
they do migrate offshore and spawning populations mix offshore. There's
no telling that fish from Galveston is going to recruit
back to Galveston. Likely they're going to Sabine, or they're
(36:57):
going to come down to Matagorda. Really is just going
to depend on occurrence and how they come into our
base systems. So it's an extra step of precaution. We
don't want a black eye like you know some of
the salmon fisheries had on the West Coast with sort
of genetic bottlenecking of broodstock, and so that's that's the
(37:19):
reason for that. We we don't want to put anything
into Galveston Bay that you know, perhaps came from somewhere
else and changed the genetics in Galveston Bay. It's probably
an unnecessary step again because the population spawn off shore,
but it's not that difficult of a thing to the
Y or two and it's better to play it safe.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Just I always thought that was just super interesting, you know,
like the level of care that was being taken to
make sure these things worked out. It wasn't like this
was just gonna Willy Nearly go catch a bunch of
flying and we want to make sure this is done
for long term.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Yes, sess and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, And talking about CCA's role in all of this,
you guys have contributed greatly to helping refurbish things like
at CEA Center Texas and yeah, other places, and CCA
has had its hand. I've been there with them, I've
seen it. I've covered this for as long as there's
been a flunder conservation movement, CCA, in particular CCA Texas
(38:17):
has been neck deep in it. So I just want
to salute you guys for being leaders and visionaries and
helping this fishery.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
I would say, just you know, in talking about c
Center and the Marine Development Center, between equipment and tanks
and buildings, and then what's gone on at Port raansis
at UTMSI just off the top of my head. Yeah,
don't take this to the bank, but I'd say we're
north of one point two million, maybe closer to one
(38:46):
to five as far as investments and larva culture research
and flounder research. Yeah. Chester, And if I could just
take one minute to tell you thank you. I don't
know that your listeners know that the level of engagement
you've had on this issue, specifically flounder and the sacrifices
(39:07):
that you've made for fifteen something years now. And so
to the listeners, you know, Chester and I knew he
got to know each other when I started Parks and
Wildlife in six and he lives again, as he mentioned,
he lives near Sabine Lake. He would drive to Poor Day,
(39:29):
he would drive to Late Jackson. He would go all
up and down the coast just to get pictures, just
to talk, just to get engaged on the subject. His
own gas money, his own personal time. He is the
champion of Southern flounder conservation in my mind, and I
have a lot of appreciation for you, brother, and thanks
(39:49):
for having me on and and thank yous forward to
many more good years of this sort.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Absolutely brother, thank you so much, and thanks for coming
on more outdoors, Thanks so much for listening. Ask me
at the Chestermoor on Instagram, and have a great, great
outdoors weekend.
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