Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the Dana Simmons Real
Estate Show. My name is Andy Hemmings. I'm with Capital Title.
I'm the guest host for today, Dana. I appreciate you
having me to run your show today. We always appreciate
you and hope you're enjoying your day today, and for
those of you listening, we appreciate you tuning in. We
(00:21):
have our guest today is mister Jonathan Vernon. He is
a local attorney and he does probate and a state
planning business entity formation and we work a lot with
Jonathan in our role there at Capital Title. And Jonathan,
I appreciate you being here today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I appreciate you having me. You missed the most relevant
thing to Capital Title that I do real estate.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
That's right, Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah. So I
met Jonathan some time ago. It's been a couple of
years now. He was sat in on a class that
we had out in our Orange office and it was
a class on it was on the States and Wills
that I was teaching, and as he started asking questions
(01:04):
and bringing up points, I was like, hey man, you
need to kind of help me with this class here, right,
you remember that.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, yeah, I think I've volunteered to help you.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah before you asked, yes, yes, and I appreciate that
very much. So with you know, with in the title
insurance industry, we do have to work with attorneys quite
often to help us clear title and do some do
some different things like that. And so Jonathan, it's always
it's always a pleasure having you, and you've been a
(01:33):
guest on here before. And if I'm going to tell you,
if you have any questions for an attorney, uh that
you want to ask, you can call in. It's four
O nine eight nine six five five eight four four
O nine eight nine six five five eight four And
you've got an attorney here that you can ask questions,
especially in regards to states and estate planning. But Jonathan,
to start off with, tell us just a little bit
(01:55):
about yourself. You know, your history here in the region
and how you decided to go into real estate law.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, all right, So my history in the region goes
back to the first attorney who lived in Beaumont. That
was my great great great grandfather. I always have to
count the greats or I'll get it wrong. After the
Civil War was over, he started his practice. He got
licensed before, but the Civil War interrupted that and he,
you know, was him the first attorney, the first attorney
(02:23):
who the actual quote from the history books I've read,
was the first resident attorney. I'm guessing we had attorneys
in Beaumont before, but none who lived here. He had
a home here that was on Park Street and no,
it was on Pearl Street. Sorry, my office is on
Park Street a few blocks. And he had a tree
(02:44):
in his front yard that took on the family name
because he took care of it and kept it alive
and things like that. It was a big old oak
tree and it's known as the O'Brien oak and Texas
A and M website and I got to go fix
my website because I linked to it. Their page is gone,
but it's as quote legend has it. It was the
first courthouse in Jefferson County, and if you go to
(03:06):
the Jefferson County Courthouse, there's a slice of that oak
tree in the mini museum. And I have a couple
of spindle top pin cases with pins and them. Well,
I have one, my mom has another that are made
from that tree because it was struck by lightning and died.
I got into real estate law. Kind of by accident.
I got into law because my grandmother was a lawyer
(03:30):
in Baton Rouge, and you know, she's very strong leader
of the family. My grandfather was also a lawyer, but
he died before I was born, so I never met him.
That influence is there because my grandmother became a lawyer
because of him. But I saw my grandmother as the strong,
(03:50):
important person in the family, and I probably would have
never been tempted to be a lawyer if it weren't
for her. But just always growing up up looking to her,
I knew, you know, she was an admirable person and
she was a lawyer. So that's what started me on
the path to law. My grandfather was actually in real
estate law, that's not what led me to it. I
(04:13):
kind of by accident ended up in probate law. I
got out of law school during the after the two
thousand and eight financial crisis. The year before I graduated.
The two thousand and eight financial crisis hit the legal industry,
and all the people who were in the kind of
same position as me but a year ahead, started having
(04:34):
their job offers. Yeah, so there was no work, and
I knew someone who was retiring who was an estate
planning attorney, and he's like, my wife says, I can't
take at state, I can't take lawyer cases anymore. He
was a real estate agent as well. I said, you
can keep being a real estate agent, but you can't
(04:55):
be a lawyer anymore. So so he started sending me
stuff over and I mean, I didn't have a job.
So it's like, yeah, I'll take money so I can
pay my rent, my loans, eat food, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of important.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And so in twenty thirteen, I moved back to Beaumont
from Houston, where I went to school and started practicing. Okay,
And well I moved back to Neederland, Yeah, but worked
in you know, Jefferson County counties. Okay, And that pretty
much brings us up to today.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
All right, So you've been been practicing here since around
twenty thirteen, right, great, Great, Well, that's that's great. And
I love hearing about your legacy, the family legacy, and
how it led you to where you are today. That's
you have very very deep roots here.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, and I skipped over a bunch of stuff that
we've talked about before.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right, right, you got a lot of tie ins with
Spindletop and all that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yes, so it went to a meeting of the Gladys
City Oil Company in May because it's still around. Wow,
that Brusard's Patillo's Barbecue. Okay, there's some of the businesses
who are still around from roughly that time.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, where did y'all meet?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
We met in Houston. Every now and then we meet
in Beaumont and we go to the Gladys City Museum
and we go to Spindle Top and we go out
to one of the one of the drill sites or
well sites.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So these are the shareholders of the original Gladys City
Oil Company. Yes, how often do y'all meet?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
The company meets once a year. They're a corporation, so
under the Texas Business Organization Code, they have to meet
once a year. So they meet once a year. I
meet once every two or three years because I'm not
a stockholder. That's my mom's generation now since my grandmother
has passed.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Okay, but they still invite you to the party.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I'm invited to the party and sometimes they you know,
ask me questions. Yeah, because I'm the only employer in
the room.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And this the Gladys City Oil Company. Was it founded
in nineteen hundred or right around there.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I think like eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It was.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Patillo Higgins, Yeah, was you know, the main motivator behind
founding the company.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, all right, and he ended up.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Not owning anything because you know he was.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I know, isn't that crazy? I read that book.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
He was always buying and getting involved selling stuff so
we could keep it moving forward.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah. Yeah, and then the slick businessman came in and.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, like he would sell everything he owned to push forward,
and then he would run out of money and sell
everything he owned to push forward, and that ended up
with him not owning anything.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, strange how that works out.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's my understanding of it. I'm not a historian.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, well I read the book. I think it was
Giant under the Hill, and that's that sounds about right.
So yeah, well, very good. Well we're going to take
a quick break and come back and start talking about
some of the services that Jonathan provides and how it
ties into tile Insurance, how it ties into what we
do at Capitol Title as part of the real estate
(08:00):
transaction process. So stay tuned and we'll be back in
just a moment with The Dana Simons Show. Welcome back everyone.
This is Andy Hemmings with Capital Title, host of the
Dana Simmons Show, and thank you for joining us today.
Our guest today is Attorney Jonathan Vernon with the Law
(08:21):
Office of Jonathan Vernon here in Jefferson County, and he
does a state planning and probate and entity formation. So
if you have any questions in any of those areas,
please give us a call. The calling numbers four O
nine eight nine six five five eight four four oh
nine eight nine six five five eight four. So, Jonathan,
(08:43):
did you you wanted to start? You had a question
for me?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's right, I have a question for you. We always
talk about, oh, this is Andy with Capital Title. Title
shirtin insurance is important. Always go through a title company.
If you're the buyer seller, it doesn't matter as much,
but you still kind of it's helpful, right, So we've
never actually talked about what is title insurance?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm glad that you asked that because I kind of
assume everybody knows, but come to find out, not many
a lot of people don't even know what it is,
what title insurance is. So let me put it let
me kind of put it in context. And you know, historically,
if you go back a couple of hundred years or so,
one hundred fifty years or so, back before eighteen seventy,
(09:30):
when someone would purchase a piece of land or purchase
pers purchase property, it was totally it was buy or
beware because they could be working with a seller who
claimed to have title to the land, who claimed to
be the owner, who claimed that there were no encumbrances
on the land, and they could have you know, there
(09:52):
was no way of checking that out, and they could
you know, you could hire an attorney to give a
legal opinion on it before you made the purchase, but
there was no insurance to back up that opinion. And
so then in the eighteen seventies there was a big
court case where an individual lost their land because of
(10:14):
because there was a title defect and they lost the
land and he sued the attorney or the court determined
that the attorney was not at fault, it was just
an opinion. And so from that moment forward, it was
determined that there needed to be a better solution for
the consumer, for the homeowner, the property owner, and thus
the title insurance industry was born around in the late
(10:37):
eighteen seventies, and so you know, the short answer to
it is it is their title insurance is there to
protect the buyer from something that might have happened in
the past from an unknown heir, someone who had has
a legal right to the property. The insurance is there
to take care of that person and if they were
(11:00):
missed in the title search. Okay, so you close on
a piece of property, come to find out there was
actually an air that we didn't catch, Well, that's what
title insurance policy is for. We'll take care of that
rather than it being on you. If there's any leans
against the property, it's our job to look for all
the leans against, you know, something that may be attached
to the property and make sure all those leans are
taken care of. If there was any forged documents, we
(11:25):
you know, we insure against that as well. So you know, ultimately,
you know, when you think the title insurance industry, it's
just a major underpinning of the entire real estate industry.
You do not if you don't buy a property with
having that title insurance, that title search and the title
insurance policy, you're taking a huge risk. And so as
(11:46):
a result. You know, the vast most all transactions do
involve a title company and title insurance of some sort.
So that's what we do. And one more interesting thing.
It's the only type of insurance that insures against something
that has happened in the past, rather than something that
might happen in the future. Like health insurance, auto insurance,
(12:06):
homeowner's insurance. All that is to protect against a future
event that might happen. Title insurance is retro retrospective. I
guess it looks at the past and that if anything
is just after you close on the property, if something
is discovered that happened in the past that the title
company missed, that's what's title policy is there for. That
(12:29):
was a lot. How did I do?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I think you did a pretty good job. I was
taking some mental notes. So you said if you miss
an air, yes, so I'll answer this question instead of
asking it to you. And a missed air is in
the situation where somebody passes away and then the owners
are and there's no will, so there's no estate that
(12:53):
goes through the court. The missed air would be someone
who is now presently in own owner, but they're not
record owner because there's nothing been done to change record
title over from the deceased person to whoever gets their stuff,
which is what we call an air when they're not
(13:14):
a beneficiary. In the legal world, we distinguish airs and beneficiaries.
Most other people don't. Beneficiary is who you want to
get your stuff and then you have a plan to
where they get it through some sort of document like
a will or a Lady Bird deed or a trust.
An air is someone who the State of Texas says,
get your stuff, gets your stuff because you don't have
(13:34):
an estate plan or a complete estate plan.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, so an air. There's actually a what's it called
the dissent and distribution, like in the State of Texas,
is that what it's called distribution?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So there's a bunch of laws that say who gets
what when someone dies? And I never, you know, tell
people off of memory. Well I tell people of memory
all the time, but I tell him, like, I need
to look at the chart before I commit to that answer,
because it's there's so many different situations like married with
children of the marriage, married with children, some of the
(14:12):
children outside of the marriage, married children, wife passed a
wife or husband passed away, never been married, has children, married,
doesn't have children, never married. You can think everyone's familiar
with the sort of relationships that people have throughout their life.
(14:32):
So the heirs, you know, that's a question that can't
be answered until someone dies. People will often say, oh,
that's the heir to the whatever fortune, and it's they're
actually a prospective heir, like King Charles was not the
heir to the throne of England until his mother died.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, Hey, it looks like we have a caller calling in, Jim.
Do we have a caller on the line, Darwin from Orange. Yes, Hey, Darwin,
thank you for calling in. How's everything over in Orange today?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Well, it's like everywhere else in this area. It's wet.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yes, sir, yes, sir. Okay, yeah, you gotta uh huh.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I got to plan on mowing my yoard this next week.
But listen, I've got a couple of questions I wanted
to ask the gentleman there, uh concerning this wheels. Uh
is he familiar with most of the wheels that are
in the state of Texas.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It depends on what you mean about most of the
wheels in the state of Texas. I'm not familiar with
most of the wheels that have been drafting in the
state of Texas, because that's a whole lot of people
with their individual wheels. But if you mean the different
kinds of wheels, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I am.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Okay, Well, I wanted to ask a question because I've
had some discussions here recently about the Lady Bird Johnson wheel.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Okay, so it's a Lady Bird deed and then has
nothing to do with Lady Bird Johnson. It's just a coincidence,
I believe, if I remember my law school classes correctly,
there was a professor in Florida who came up with
the Lady Bird deed and what it is. It's a
take on the life estate deed, which had existed for hundreds,
(16:20):
if not maybe a thousand years or more in England.
And a life estate just says somebody owns property for
as long as someone is alive. It can be the
same someone, it can be someone else. But with that
life estate there's a bunch of limitations. The Lady Bird
deed attempts to remove those limitations. And since we have
(16:41):
Andy here, I'm going to ask him a question after
I finished talking about it. But the life the Lady
Bird deed is basically a beneficiary designation saying who owns
your property your real property when you die. Like you
can have beneficiary designations on life insurance or bank accounts,
you have beneficiaries and the will. You have beneficiaries on
(17:03):
your retirement, you have beneficiaries on trust. It's just a
beneficiary designation for land. Andy, tell me what title companies
think about ladybird deeds.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Well, I don't know how deep I can get into that,
but I do know that we have to.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Let me clarify my question because I'm going for a
specific answer. Okay, what happens if I have a ladybird
deed that says someone's the beneficiary of it. The lady
bird deed says I can sell the land without their permission.
But I come to a title company and I don't
have that person's permission.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, well then we have a problem. Okay, yeah, yeah,
So so I think you it sounds like this is something,
this ladybird deed is something you're you're considering.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Darwin, Well, uh, it could be. Once again, from what
I understand, there's there's several different types. And so I
don't have any no college in that area, and of course, uh,
the state of Texas. Uh from I know that uh
(18:09):
through uh the regulations and all of that, everything was
established on some of these deeds were done many years ago,
and so now that everything is being updated, it makes
it very complicated for a simple person, uh that's not
into the legal process to understand all of that. So look,
(18:33):
I'm going to hang up and listen, okay, and uh
and if y'all will, if y'all will just go into
detail a little bit about, uh the what direction I
possibly need to go on that uh on that thing
right there.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Okay, okay, all right, So what I say is you
need to sit down and have a private conversation with
an attorney. I can recommend one. His name's Jonathan Vernon.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, let me give your phone number here, Jonathan. His
his number is A four O nine seven two seven
four eight four seven. So Darwin, you might want to
jot that down four oh nine seven two seven four
eight four seven, and I'll be giving it out again
a couple more times during the show.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
But okay, and that's Jonathan Vernon Vernon v.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
E R N O N like Mount Vernon where George
Washington live.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Okay, Well, thanks a lot, gentlemen, Thank you appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Calling in, So I'll go a little bit more into that.
So it sounds like he was touching on what we
call enhanced life estate deeds. So I talked about how
it was a life estate deed that dates back to England.
There's the common law enhanced life estate deed, which we
call the Lady Bird deed. And here in Texas, everybody
thinks it's about Lady Bird Johnson. Yeah, and I most
(19:51):
you know, I did too until I heard the story.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And then we have a statutory enhanced life estate deed
called a Todd transfer on dea deed. I prefer the
Lady Bird deed, and I believe title companies prefer the
Todd Yes. But if someone comes to me and they
says they say, they says, I'm supposed to know how
to talk, and they say, I want a Lady Bird deed,
(20:19):
usually caution against doing a Lady Bird deed alone because
what happens if that person that's the beneficiary can't give permission.
If the person decides to sell the home for whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Reason, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It doesn't have to be a home, it can be
any sort of property.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
So there's a the beneficiary's interest has some contingencies, and
that's what the title company has an issue with. So
many times we will take exception, well it's call it
an exception in the title policy. And you could think
of it like if you compare it like to your
homeowner's policy, if your roof is old or something like that,
(20:58):
they're not gonna they're not going to insure for the
They may not want to insure it because the roof
is too old, something like that. Just trying to draw parallel. So,
because of the way a Ladybird deed is drafted and
the way it's structured, it presents potential risk for us.
It exposes us to some risk in the future, and
we're an insurance company and it's our job to mitigate
(21:19):
our risk as best possible. So Yeah, but they should
sit down and talk with you so you can discuss
all that with it.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, because a lot of people they come in and say,
what I need is a lady Bird deed because I
heard someone say it, right, And a lot of times
they don't need a lady bird deed. Sometimes they do.
But normally, if I'm drafting a lady bird deed for someone,
I do it with a trust. Yeah, because then the
beneficiary is the trust and the person who signed the
Lady Bird deed is the trustee of the trust. So
(21:48):
you need to get permission from yourself to sell the property,
and that's usually pretty easy to do.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah. Yeah, just have a quick meeting with yourself. I
think I'm going to sell this today. I'm going to
give your number out again here, So get your pens handy, everybody.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And you can text this number. You know, you can
text me your name, email address, and what you want
to talk about. That's that's the best way of getting
right old of me.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
That's how I always get him. I got to text
him first. So uh seven to four oh nine seven
two seven four eight four seven four oh nine seven
two seven four eight four seven Attorney Jonathan Vernon. Now, Jonathan,
something else that we were talking about is the difference
between a dependent administration and a and an independent administration.
(22:33):
So first of all, just put it in in context.
What you know for somebody that those words may be
completely foreign. What are we even talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So an administration is when you go to court and
you get someone to pointed to administer the estate, you mean,
be in charge of it and a independent administration, administrator
can do almost whatever they want that's to the benefit
of the estate and the beneficiary of the estate without
(23:03):
court permission and very little court supervision. Somebody can always
come in and say, hey, they're they're cheating us or something,
and then the court gets involved. A dependent administration is
the court's involved the whole way through. The administrator can
make almost no decisions by themselves. Well, they can make
decisions by themselves, but they have to get the court's
(23:25):
permission to execute those decisions to follow through with it.
So you have an independent administration, and that's going to
cost you maybe you know, somewhere between, depending on who
you go to and the complexities of everything. A typical
one somewhere between two thousand and five thousand, okay. A
(23:46):
dependent administration it's going to cost you around ten thousand
if it's not complicated and you don't have any major issues.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Okay, so there's obviously a big cost different. So so
those of you listen right now, you have to think
about it this way. What do they say? What are
the two things is that is certain and certain in life?
Death and taxes and even taxes aren't certain. You cannot
pay your tax and go to prison. But death is
certain it's going to happen, and so the better you
(24:15):
can prepare yourself before that happens, it just can save
your heirs a lot of money and a lot of trouble.
So I think that's kind of at the base of
what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, a lot of trouble, probably more trouble than money. Yeah,
I mean, I know that's a lot of money. Ten
thousand dollars for air quotes. Cheap dependent administration, Yeah, and
cheap is like there's one piece of real estate and
that's all that's being administered, or there's one bank account
that you have to get done with.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
So before we dive too deep into it, I want
to take another break because I really want to unpack
what a dependent talk a little bit about the independent
administration and how you set that up and how that
works after the fact.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
How to avoid a depend how to avoid.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
It, thank you, how to avoid a dependent administration, and
then paint the picture of what happens in a typical
dependent administration. So everybody's stay tuned. We're going to come
back and really unpack those things. And I think what's
going to show you is the importance of proper estate
planning so so important, and so stay tuned here to
a kV I. This is the Dana Simmons Show. Andy
(25:27):
Hemmings with capital title. Welcome back everyone to the Dana
Simmons Real Estate Show. This is Andy Hemmings with capital title,
guest host for today. And today we're talking with attorney
Jonathan Vernon. He's a state planning and a probate attorney
here in Jefferson County. And Jim, you popped in a
(25:50):
minute ago, and I believe you had a question.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well, I do, and it's a fascinating discussion, and I'm
enjoying the show and enjoying what you're talking about as layman.
I guess I was just wondering, after that previous caller,
why not take care of some of these matters with
the will. Simply have the deed and establish the deed
(26:14):
and ownership where you want it, and then that person
would have a proper will that would ensure that their
wishes would be done upon their passing.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Okay, all right, that's a really good question. One of
the reasons you would have a lady bird deed instead
of or in addition to a will is you just
want a smooth process where no one has to go
to court. If you have an independent administrator, court is
pretty simple. Ninety five percent or more of my cases.
(26:50):
We go into court and here in Jefferson County, a
slot a piece of paper over to the executor of
the will and it's called a proof of death in
other facts. And they've, you know, supplied me with the
information and looked over it before we're in court. So
I ask them, is everything in their true and correct?
They say yes because they've I say, are you familiar
with it? Is everything in their true and correct? They
(27:11):
answer yes to both those questions. I give them the will,
tell them to look over it for a minute at
the signatures and that sort of thing, and ask them,
you know, is that your loved one's signatures. They say yes,
they signed their they signed that proof of death and
other facts, they signed their oath, and then Judge Brannet
appoints them as the independent executor of the estate.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yes, so it's a.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Very easy process. Clients are always shocked, even though I
told them it's that process that it was so easy
to go through.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But they but to start off with, they need to
come visit with you and get that will established.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Right, So the deceased person has to get the will.
Then after the person passes away, the will needs to
be brought in to me or another attorney and we
you know, go through that process. But people are terrified.
Sorry I did gem my headphones on.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Well, and that's what I'm wondering. Do you find that
people perhaps don't understand that probate process and they're trying
to do everything possible to avoid it, when in many
cases that may be the simplest thing to do with
property and to make sure your wishes are carried out.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, I find that people overestimate the cost and burden
of an independent administration because they compare it to a
dependent administration or the cost of an administration in a
place like California. In California, uh, you know, selfishly, I
kind of want it to be that way in Texas.
(28:40):
In California, the lawyer gets a percentage of the estate. WHOA,
So you know it's on commission and you know, in
most cases, I'm going to do the same amount of
work for a five hundred thousand dollars estate and a
one hundred thousand dollars estate.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Sure, So you know you.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Get a lot more money on those bit in California,
where a home is millions of dollars get rich off
of one case. Here in Texas, it's almost always an
hourly or flat fee for an administration.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, and so you said it was a couple of
two three thousand dollars or so start to finish soup
to nuts.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah, for most cases, for most cases, for most cases
with for most cases with the will, it's around twenty
five hundred dollars. And that's covers filing feeds, recording a
new deed. But a lady bird deed is a much
simpler process. If everything goes right after you've died. That's
why people want that. And people are terrified of going
(29:39):
to court, even if it's uncontested simple and Judge Brannick
and the other probate judges I've dealt with are always
I mean, it's not contested, you're not in trouble, you
didn't do anything wrong. They know you've lost a loved one.
They're very gentle and calming.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
They are with the people.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I got to give our probate judges a lot of
credited what they do. It's not just Brannick, it's all
the judges are you know, in Southeast Texas, and I
imagine most of the judges in Texas.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Jim, did that answer your question?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Well, it does, and I guess the follow up I'll
leave it to you guys, is so what could go
wrong with a lady bird deed?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
All Right?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
The person you named is beneficiary, isn't alive when the
deed is execute. When when the person passes away, the
person doesn't agree to sell the property when mom decides
to move either because they're a bad child, something happened
(30:45):
to them to where they are not legally allowed to agree,
So then you're in a pickle at that point. One
of the reasons that people want a lady Bird deed,
the most common reason I come across is someone said
I needed a lady Bird Dean. They have no reason themselves,
they just heard it. That's kind of one of the
most common things. When someone comes in and asks for
a specific document that I get. Someone told me I
(31:07):
needed this, and I'm like, well, why do you need
this as opposed to that, and they're like, I don't know,
and that's what I heard. And then a really good
reason for a lady Bird deed is to avoid probate
in a situation where probate will cause a problem in
the state of Texas, if you were on Medicaid, the
(31:30):
program for people who don't have enough money for medical care.
People get Medicaid and medicare confused a lot. Medicare is
for elderly people, Medicaid is for poor people. Well, if
you go through Medicaid, you owe money to the State
of Texas, so when you die, they come with their
hand and say, give me my money back. And if
(31:52):
your state goes through probate, everything that goes through probate
can be reached by the state of Texas. If it
avoids probate, it is not reached by the state of Texas,
And that is a choice of the state of Texas.
The federal government gave the states you can seek reimbursement
for things outside of probate or not, and some states
(32:14):
chose to seek reimbursement. Texas chose not to. But I
really like doing other things to avoid Medicaid. Besides what
I'll call a naked lady bird deed, I'd want something
I usually do the lady bird deed with the trust.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Okay, in conjunction with the trust.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It has all sorts of contingencies that I'm not comfortable
putting in a lady bird deed.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, I got you, all right, Jim. Thank you for
your astute question there. We appreciate you jumping in the conversation.
So let's go now to So you mentioned the independent
administration and how relatively inexpensive and how smooth that can
make the process go. Let's flip to the other side, though,
(32:57):
when somebody hasn't gone through that process, how your face
with a dependent administration? Give us a scenario kind and
kind of walk us through how that looks? Okay?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
All right, So let's say you did everything right, and
you have a will and you have you know, two
or three independent executors in that will, but things went
wrong and they're all dead before you, or mentally incompetent
before you, or not trustworthy enough to do this thing,
and for some reason are disqualified and cannot be the
(33:27):
independent executor. So there's no independent executor. Well, if all
the heirs agree, the court can appoint someone as an
independent administrator. An administrator is somebody who is not named
in the will, and an executor is somebody who is
a lot of times we use the term personal representative
because it covers both, okay, and it's kind of an
(33:49):
arcane difference.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
But an administrator by definition, has to be somebody that
is not in the will.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Not named in the will as executor.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Not named in will as executive.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
They can be somebody named in the will as a beneficiary.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
So most of the time, when you're in a situation
where there's no named executor either because they're all gone,
there is no will, the beneficiars of the estate get
together and agree on who should be in charge most
of the time. But there are circumstances where family's not
going to agree, and there are circumstances where family can agree,
(34:27):
Like if one of the beneficiaries of the estate is
a minor, is somebody who is mentally handicapped to the
point where the court says they're not allowed to make
decisions for themselves, And then you don't have or you know,
maybe in airs, missing somewhere and you can't find them.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, and that happens.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
It happens a lot more than people would think, especially
when you're going far down to grandchildren and stuff. Then
you cannot have a independent administration. Some of those situations
you can and if the judge says so, judge doesn't
have to say so, it's his or her decision. So
(35:07):
then you're in a dependent administration, okay. And in a
dependent administration you have to go to the judge for
permission for just about everything. There's a list of like
eight things you don't have and I'm not going to
recite them off a memory. I look at the statute, yeah,
every time, to make sure I get all of them,
(35:28):
and get all of them right. I don't want to
tell someone they can do something they can't. But there's
like eight eight or so things you can do without
going to the court for permission. Everything else you have
to go to the court for permission. And that's you know,
you pay the lawnman twenty dollars to mow the grass,
which you know, great price of these days, you have
to get the court's permission for that.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You anything from there too. I need to sell all
the property and liquidate it because it can't be divided,
or there are all these debts to pay or or whatever.
You have to go to the court to get permission.
And let's say you know you owe someone money you
pass away. Now they have to go to court and
(36:10):
get the court's permission before the administrator can pay you.
So they got to go to court and say this
money was owed to me, and they have to prove it.
I mean it's not that hard to prove it, but
it's not that easy too, because there's a lot of arcane.
You know, you got to send it this way and
say these magic words and that sort of thing. So
(36:30):
if you owe someone money who died, you got to
go to court to get it approved. And a dependent administration,
and because the administrator cannot pay it until the judge
approves it.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah, I know that. When when we're closing a
transaction a capital title and there's a dependent administration, we
always have to make sure to explain to the parties
how the process works and that there's delays. I mean
there's a lot of times that the closings get delayed
because it's work its way through the different because there's
(37:01):
different steps in a dependent administration for approval, and even
after it closes, even after everybody signs the paper and closes,
we still have to get the judge, a final sign
off from the judge, and a lot sometimes that can
happen pretty quickly. Sometimes it may may take I can't
remember the period of time, but it can take more
than a day or so. And you know we've got
(37:22):
a buyer, yeah, definitely, and we got to buyer ready
to move into the house, and it's like it's not
done yet, and so we always have to be I
have to over explain it to people because they think
they sign the documents and it's done. It's not.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
And you know, the real estate agents normally don't take
it into consideration because you can do things in the
contract where they could move in at closing if they
don't technically own it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, temporary leases, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
But so when someone when you're going through that process,
you first have to get permission from the judge to
sell the home, right you got to come up with
a price and all these things and what the property
is worth, and it's pretty complicated just to just to
get permission. Right, Once you get everything together and you
(38:09):
put it before the judge, it's pretty simple. You usually
do it without a hearing. Hearing is when you go
in from the judge and you present evidence of and
arguments as to why the judge should do what you
want the judge to do. And that's basically what a
trial is. Anytime people are in front of a judge,
that's what you're doing. You're trying to get the judges
permission to do something.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, And so then you.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Go through the sales process and then within I think
it's ten days, someone and the code doesn't actually say who,
someone has to report to the court that a contract's
been signed. So, you know, you get permission to sign
a contract with a realtor to sell the property. Then
(38:52):
you get permission from the court to accept the contract
that's been signed. Then it goes to closing and everybody
signs off. Then you go to court to get permission
from the judge to you know, well, it's not really permission,
it's more of a confirmation. You call it a confirmation
from it.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
The judge looks at everything and says, even though I've
already approved all of this, I want to second look
at it just in case.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, because we have to send like the settlement statement.
They have to look at all the figures and make
sure and it's there to protect the airs that things,
you know that they're that they're being protected, and airs
and creditors, heirs and creditors all of those creditors they're
out there. Hey, we are going to take one more
break and come back and we're going to finish talking
about this because I know we got more to unpack.
This is Andy Hemmings with capital title, and listen right down.
(39:40):
Jonathan's phone number here four nine seven two seven four
eight four seven, give him a text and he'll be
happy to visit with you. We'll be right back. Welcome
back everyone. This is Andy Hemmings with capital title, guest
host of The Dana Simmons Show. And today we're talking
with Attorney John nothing vern In and we're specifically talking
(40:02):
about a state planning and the importance of a state
planning and some steps that you can that you can
take to help you and your heirs. So Jonathan walk
us through, Like when you meet someone meet with someone
and their interested in making sure that they've got their
errs protected and they've got their estate in order. What's
(40:22):
a typical consultation that you have with them.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
So what I do is I charge fifty dollars for
the first thirty minutes, fifty dollars for you know, over
the first thirty minutes up to a total of an hour,
and then I charge my regular hourly rate after that. Okay,
but I designed it that way because most people can
get things done in an hour. Sure, but normally I
send them some sort of questionnaire beforehand so that they
(40:48):
can save time. They have all the information they need
to answer the questions. I don't expect people to completely
fill everything out. I expect them not to, but then
go over all the documents that could be in an
estate plan, things like trusts, medical powers of attorney, power
of attorney, and will. Those are just the four most
(41:08):
common things. There are other documents too, and I would
say almost everyone needs a will, a medical power of attorney,
and a power of attorney. A lot of people don't
have any of them. And when you need those things,
they're much more expensive yeah, after the fact, because you
can't do them after the fact.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
It just creates so many problems when you don't have
those and you need them and money.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And what those are is the will and trust kind
of govern Mostly you can sit down with me for
an hour if you want to really know all this
stuff with no commercial breaks. The will and trust are
mostly geared towards who get your stuff when you die.
The medical power of attorneys who makes medical decisions when
(41:56):
you can't, and then the power of attorney is mostly
geared towards who will make financial decisions when you can't,
and that protects you from some sort of dependent administration.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
If you can have a dependent administration while you're still alive,
that's called a guardianship. That's a whole other topic, does it. Yeah,
it would come into capital title too, yes, yeah, absolutely.
You know, someone needs to sell property and mom is
no longer in the right mind, but her property has
to be sold or it's going to be taken by
the bank or something. There's some reason it has to
(42:32):
be done.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
You know. And we still have people. We run into
people that think the power of attorney is all they need,
and it's like, the power of attorney is only good
as long as the person's still alive, that's right, Yeah, yeah,
And so we've had that.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
With certain rare exceptions that are almost never the case
for people who think that.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah. Yeah, So a will power of attorney and a
medical power of attorney and maybe some other things, but
you sit down with us.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
The basic I think that everyone should have. Yeah, everyone
who is eighteen or older. I think people younger than
that should have it too. They just can't.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Got youa Okay, I'm gonna give you Jonathan's number again.
Here it is four oh nine seven two seven four
eight four seven four oh nine seven two seven four
eight four seven. Sit down and talk with your spouse
about this. If you haven't done that yet, or even
if you're not married, definitely you're gonna want to sit
down and get your estate in order. It's it is
(43:31):
so much less expensive and so much less hassle than
not doing so. So, Jonathan, I really appreciate you being
here today.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I always appreciate the invitation.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yes, this has been Andy Hemmings with Capital Title and
just remember capital title for your future real estate transactions.
We are in Beaumont, Orange, Lumberton Port author and Crystal Beach.
Y'all have a wonderful, wonderful weekend.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
E
Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the Dana Simmons Real
Estate Show. My name is Andy Hemmings. I'm with Capital Title.
I'm the guest host for today, Dana. I appreciate you
having me to run your show today. We always appreciate
you and hope you're enjoying your day today, and for
those of you listening, we appreciate you tuning in. We
(00:21):
have our guest today is mister Jonathan Vernon. He is
a local attorney and he does probate and a state
planning business entity formation and we work a lot with
Jonathan in our role there at Capital Title. And Jonathan,
I appreciate you being here today.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I appreciate you having me. You missed the most relevant
thing to Capital Title that I do real estate.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
That's right, Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah. So I
met Jonathan some time ago. It's been a couple of
years now. He was sat in on a class that
we had out in our Orange office and it was
a class on it was on the States and Wills
that I was teaching, and as he started asking questions
(01:04):
and bringing up points, I was like, hey man, you
need to kind of help me with this class here, right,
you remember that.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah, yeah, I think I've volunteered to help you.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah before you asked, yes, yes, and I appreciate that
very much. So with you know, with in the title
insurance industry, we do have to work with attorneys quite
often to help us clear title and do some do
some different things like that. And so Jonathan, it's always
it's always a pleasure having you, and you've been a
(01:33):
guest on here before. And if I'm going to tell you,
if you have any questions for an attorney, uh that
you want to ask, you can call in. It's four
O nine eight nine six five five eight four four
O nine eight nine six five five eight four And
you've got an attorney here that you can ask questions,
especially in regards to states and estate planning. But Jonathan,
to start off with, tell us just a little bit
(01:55):
about yourself. You know, your history here in the region
and how you decided to go into real estate law.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Okay, all right, So my history in the region goes
back to the first attorney who lived in Beaumont. That
was my great great great grandfather. I always have to
count the greats or I'll get it wrong. After the
Civil War was over, he started his practice. He got
licensed before, but the Civil War interrupted that and he,
you know, was him the first attorney, the first attorney
(02:23):
who the actual quote from the history books I've read,
was the first resident attorney. I'm guessing we had attorneys
in Beaumont before, but none who lived here. He had
a home here that was on Park Street and no,
it was on Pearl Street. Sorry, my office is on
Park Street a few blocks. And he had a tree
(02:44):
in his front yard that took on the family name
because he took care of it and kept it alive
and things like that. It was a big old oak
tree and it's known as the O'Brien oak and Texas
A and M website and I got to go fix
my website because I linked to it. Their page is gone,
but it's as quote legend has it. It was the
first courthouse in Jefferson County, and if you go to
(03:06):
the Jefferson County Courthouse, there's a slice of that oak
tree in the mini museum. And I have a couple
of spindle top pin cases with pins and them. Well,
I have one, my mom has another that are made
from that tree because it was struck by lightning and died.
I got into real estate law. Kind of by accident.
I got into law because my grandmother was a lawyer
(03:30):
in Baton Rouge, and you know, she's very strong leader
of the family. My grandfather was also a lawyer, but
he died before I was born, so I never met him.
That influence is there because my grandmother became a lawyer
because of him. But I saw my grandmother as the strong,
(03:50):
important person in the family, and I probably would have
never been tempted to be a lawyer if it weren't
for her. But just always growing up up looking to her,
I knew, you know, she was an admirable person and
she was a lawyer. So that's what started me on
the path to law. My grandfather was actually in real
estate law, that's not what led me to it. I
(04:13):
kind of by accident ended up in probate law. I
got out of law school during the after the two
thousand and eight financial crisis. The year before I graduated.
The two thousand and eight financial crisis hit the legal industry,
and all the people who were in the kind of
same position as me but a year ahead, started having
(04:34):
their job offers. Yeah, so there was no work, and
I knew someone who was retiring who was an estate
planning attorney, and he's like, my wife says, I can't
take at state, I can't take lawyer cases anymore. He
was a real estate agent as well. I said, you
can keep being a real estate agent, but you can't
(04:55):
be a lawyer anymore. So so he started sending me
stuff over and I mean, I didn't have a job.
So it's like, yeah, I'll take money so I can
pay my rent, my loans, eat food, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of important.
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
And so in twenty thirteen, I moved back to Beaumont
from Houston, where I went to school and started practicing. Okay,
And well I moved back to Neederland, Yeah, but worked
in you know, Jefferson County counties. Okay, And that pretty
much brings us up to today.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
All right, So you've been been practicing here since around
twenty thirteen, right, great, Great, Well, that's that's great. And
I love hearing about your legacy, the family legacy, and
how it led you to where you are today. That's
you have very very deep roots here.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah, and I skipped over a bunch of stuff that
we've talked about before.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Right, right, you got a lot of tie ins with
Spindletop and all that.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Yes, so it went to a meeting of the Gladys
City Oil Company in May because it's still around. Wow,
that Brusard's Patillo's Barbecue. Okay, there's some of the businesses
who are still around from roughly that time.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
Yeah, where did y'all meet?
Speaker 2 (06:04):
We met in Houston. Every now and then we meet
in Beaumont and we go to the Gladys City Museum
and we go to Spindle Top and we go out
to one of the one of the drill sites or
well sites.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So these are the shareholders of the original Gladys City
Oil Company. Yes, how often do y'all meet?
Speaker 2 (06:21):
The company meets once a year. They're a corporation, so
under the Texas Business Organization Code, they have to meet
once a year. So they meet once a year. I
meet once every two or three years because I'm not
a stockholder. That's my mom's generation now since my grandmother
has passed.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Okay, but they still invite you to the party.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, I'm invited to the party and sometimes they you know,
ask me questions. Yeah, because I'm the only employer in
the room.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And this the Gladys City Oil Company. Was it founded
in nineteen hundred or right around there.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I think like eighteen ninety eight.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It was.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Patillo Higgins, Yeah, was you know, the main motivator behind
founding the company.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, all right, and he ended up.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Not owning anything because you know he was.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
I know, isn't that crazy? I read that book.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
He was always buying and getting involved selling stuff so
we could keep it moving forward.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah. Yeah, and then the slick businessman came in and.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Well, like he would sell everything he owned to push forward,
and then he would run out of money and sell
everything he owned to push forward, and that ended up
with him not owning anything.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Yeah, strange how that works out.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
That's my understanding of it. I'm not a historian.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
Yeah, well I read the book. I think it was
Giant under the Hill, and that's that sounds about right.
So yeah, well, very good. Well we're going to take
a quick break and come back and start talking about
some of the services that Jonathan provides and how it
ties into tile Insurance, how it ties into what we
do at Capitol Title as part of the real estate
(08:00):
transaction process. So stay tuned and we'll be back in
just a moment with The Dana Simons Show. Welcome back everyone.
This is Andy Hemmings with Capital Title, host of the
Dana Simmons Show, and thank you for joining us today.
Our guest today is Attorney Jonathan Vernon with the Law
(08:21):
Office of Jonathan Vernon here in Jefferson County, and he
does a state planning and probate and entity formation. So
if you have any questions in any of those areas,
please give us a call. The calling numbers four O
nine eight nine six five five eight four four oh
nine eight nine six five five eight four. So, Jonathan,
(08:43):
did you you wanted to start? You had a question
for me?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That's right, I have a question for you. We always
talk about, oh, this is Andy with Capital Title. Title
shirtin insurance is important. Always go through a title company.
If you're the buyer seller, it doesn't matter as much,
but you still kind of it's helpful, right, So we've
never actually talked about what is title insurance?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
You know.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I'm glad that you asked that because I kind of
assume everybody knows, but come to find out, not many
a lot of people don't even know what it is,
what title insurance is. So let me put it let
me kind of put it in context. And you know, historically,
if you go back a couple of hundred years or so,
one hundred fifty years or so, back before eighteen seventy,
(09:30):
when someone would purchase a piece of land or purchase
pers purchase property, it was totally it was buy or
beware because they could be working with a seller who
claimed to have title to the land, who claimed to
be the owner, who claimed that there were no encumbrances
on the land, and they could have you know, there
(09:52):
was no way of checking that out, and they could
you know, you could hire an attorney to give a
legal opinion on it before you made the purchase, but
there was no insurance to back up that opinion. And
so then in the eighteen seventies there was a big
court case where an individual lost their land because of
(10:14):
because there was a title defect and they lost the
land and he sued the attorney or the court determined
that the attorney was not at fault, it was just
an opinion. And so from that moment forward, it was
determined that there needed to be a better solution for
the consumer, for the homeowner, the property owner, and thus
the title insurance industry was born around in the late
(10:37):
eighteen seventies, and so you know, the short answer to
it is it is their title insurance is there to
protect the buyer from something that might have happened in
the past from an unknown heir, someone who had has
a legal right to the property. The insurance is there
to take care of that person and if they were
(11:00):
missed in the title search. Okay, so you close on
a piece of property, come to find out there was
actually an air that we didn't catch, Well, that's what
title insurance policy is for. We'll take care of that
rather than it being on you. If there's any leans
against the property, it's our job to look for all
the leans against, you know, something that may be attached
to the property and make sure all those leans are
taken care of. If there was any forged documents, we
(11:25):
you know, we insure against that as well. So you know, ultimately,
you know, when you think the title insurance industry, it's
just a major underpinning of the entire real estate industry.
You do not if you don't buy a property with
having that title insurance, that title search and the title
insurance policy, you're taking a huge risk. And so as
(11:46):
a result. You know, the vast most all transactions do
involve a title company and title insurance of some sort.
So that's what we do. And one more interesting thing.
It's the only type of insurance that insures against something
that has happened in the past, rather than something that
might happen in the future. Like health insurance, auto insurance,
(12:06):
homeowner's insurance. All that is to protect against a future
event that might happen. Title insurance is retro retrospective. I
guess it looks at the past and that if anything
is just after you close on the property, if something
is discovered that happened in the past that the title
company missed, that's what's title policy is there for. That
(12:29):
was a lot. How did I do?
Speaker 2 (12:31):
I think you did a pretty good job. I was
taking some mental notes. So you said if you miss
an air, yes, so I'll answer this question instead of
asking it to you. And a missed air is in
the situation where somebody passes away and then the owners
are and there's no will, so there's no estate that
(12:53):
goes through the court. The missed air would be someone
who is now presently in own owner, but they're not
record owner because there's nothing been done to change record
title over from the deceased person to whoever gets their stuff,
which is what we call an air when they're not
(13:14):
a beneficiary. In the legal world, we distinguish airs and beneficiaries.
Most other people don't. Beneficiary is who you want to
get your stuff and then you have a plan to
where they get it through some sort of document like
a will or a Lady Bird deed or a trust.
An air is someone who the State of Texas says,
get your stuff, gets your stuff because you don't have
(13:34):
an estate plan or a complete estate plan.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah, so an air. There's actually a what's it called
the dissent and distribution, like in the State of Texas,
is that what it's called distribution?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So there's a bunch of laws that say who gets
what when someone dies? And I never, you know, tell
people off of memory. Well I tell people of memory
all the time, but I tell him, like, I need
to look at the chart before I commit to that answer,
because it's there's so many different situations like married with
children of the marriage, married with children, some of the
(14:12):
children outside of the marriage, married children, wife passed a
wife or husband passed away, never been married, has children, married,
doesn't have children, never married. You can think everyone's familiar
with the sort of relationships that people have throughout their life.
(14:32):
So the heirs, you know, that's a question that can't
be answered until someone dies. People will often say, oh,
that's the heir to the whatever fortune, and it's they're
actually a prospective heir, like King Charles was not the
heir to the throne of England until his mother died.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah, Hey, it looks like we have a caller calling in, Jim.
Do we have a caller on the line, Darwin from Orange. Yes, Hey, Darwin,
thank you for calling in. How's everything over in Orange today?
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Well, it's like everywhere else in this area. It's wet.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yes, sir, yes, sir. Okay, yeah, you gotta uh huh.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
I got to plan on mowing my yoard this next week.
But listen, I've got a couple of questions I wanted
to ask the gentleman there, uh concerning this wheels. Uh
is he familiar with most of the wheels that are
in the state of Texas.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
It depends on what you mean about most of the
wheels in the state of Texas. I'm not familiar with
most of the wheels that have been drafting in the
state of Texas, because that's a whole lot of people
with their individual wheels. But if you mean the different
kinds of wheels, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I am.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Okay, Well, I wanted to ask a question because I've
had some discussions here recently about the Lady Bird Johnson wheel.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Okay, so it's a Lady Bird deed and then has
nothing to do with Lady Bird Johnson. It's just a coincidence,
I believe, if I remember my law school classes correctly,
there was a professor in Florida who came up with
the Lady Bird deed and what it is. It's a
take on the life estate deed, which had existed for hundreds,
(16:20):
if not maybe a thousand years or more in England.
And a life estate just says somebody owns property for
as long as someone is alive. It can be the
same someone, it can be someone else. But with that
life estate there's a bunch of limitations. The Lady Bird
deed attempts to remove those limitations. And since we have
(16:41):
Andy here, I'm going to ask him a question after
I finished talking about it. But the life the Lady
Bird deed is basically a beneficiary designation saying who owns
your property your real property when you die. Like you
can have beneficiary designations on life insurance or bank accounts,
you have beneficiaries and the will. You have beneficiaries on
(17:03):
your retirement, you have beneficiaries on trust. It's just a
beneficiary designation for land. Andy, tell me what title companies
think about ladybird deeds.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Well, I don't know how deep I can get into that,
but I do know that we have to.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
Let me clarify my question because I'm going for a
specific answer. Okay, what happens if I have a ladybird
deed that says someone's the beneficiary of it. The lady
bird deed says I can sell the land without their permission.
But I come to a title company and I don't
have that person's permission.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, well then we have a problem. Okay, yeah, yeah,
So so I think you it sounds like this is something,
this ladybird deed is something you're you're considering.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
Darwin, Well, uh, it could be. Once again, from what
I understand, there's there's several different types. And so I
don't have any no college in that area, and of course, uh,
the state of Texas. Uh from I know that uh
(18:09):
through uh the regulations and all of that, everything was
established on some of these deeds were done many years ago,
and so now that everything is being updated, it makes
it very complicated for a simple person, uh that's not
into the legal process to understand all of that. So look,
(18:33):
I'm going to hang up and listen, okay, and uh
and if y'all will, if y'all will just go into
detail a little bit about, uh the what direction I
possibly need to go on that uh on that thing
right there.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Okay, okay, all right, So what I say is you
need to sit down and have a private conversation with
an attorney. I can recommend one. His name's Jonathan Vernon.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, let me give your phone number here, Jonathan. His
his number is A four O nine seven two seven
four eight four seven. So Darwin, you might want to
jot that down four oh nine seven two seven four
eight four seven, and I'll be giving it out again
a couple more times during the show.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
But okay, and that's Jonathan Vernon Vernon v.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
E R N O N like Mount Vernon where George
Washington live.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
Okay, Well, thanks a lot, gentlemen, Thank you appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Calling in, So I'll go a little bit more into that.
So it sounds like he was touching on what we
call enhanced life estate deeds. So I talked about how
it was a life estate deed that dates back to England.
There's the common law enhanced life estate deed, which we
call the Lady Bird deed. And here in Texas, everybody
thinks it's about Lady Bird Johnson. Yeah, and I most
(19:51):
you know, I did too until I heard the story.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
And then we have a statutory enhanced life estate deed
called a Todd transfer on dea deed. I prefer the
Lady Bird deed, and I believe title companies prefer the
Todd Yes. But if someone comes to me and they
says they say, they says, I'm supposed to know how
to talk, and they say, I want a Lady Bird deed,
(20:19):
usually caution against doing a Lady Bird deed alone because
what happens if that person that's the beneficiary can't give permission.
If the person decides to sell the home for whatever.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Reason, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
It doesn't have to be a home, it can be
any sort of property.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
So there's a the beneficiary's interest has some contingencies, and
that's what the title company has an issue with. So
many times we will take exception, well it's call it
an exception in the title policy. And you could think
of it like if you compare it like to your
homeowner's policy, if your roof is old or something like that,
(20:58):
they're not gonna they're not going to insure for the
They may not want to insure it because the roof
is too old, something like that. Just trying to draw parallel. So,
because of the way a Ladybird deed is drafted and
the way it's structured, it presents potential risk for us.
It exposes us to some risk in the future, and
we're an insurance company and it's our job to mitigate
(21:19):
our risk as best possible. So Yeah, but they should
sit down and talk with you so you can discuss
all that with it.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Yeah, because a lot of people they come in and say,
what I need is a lady Bird deed because I
heard someone say it, right, And a lot of times
they don't need a lady bird deed. Sometimes they do.
But normally, if I'm drafting a lady bird deed for someone,
I do it with a trust. Yeah, because then the
beneficiary is the trust and the person who signed the
Lady Bird deed is the trustee of the trust. So
(21:48):
you need to get permission from yourself to sell the property,
and that's usually pretty easy to do.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah. Yeah, just have a quick meeting with yourself. I
think I'm going to sell this today. I'm going to
give your number out again here, So get your pens handy, everybody.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
And you can text this number. You know, you can
text me your name, email address, and what you want
to talk about. That's that's the best way of getting
right old of me.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
That's how I always get him. I got to text
him first. So uh seven to four oh nine seven
two seven four eight four seven four oh nine seven
two seven four eight four seven Attorney Jonathan Vernon. Now, Jonathan,
something else that we were talking about is the difference
between a dependent administration and a and an independent administration.
(22:33):
So first of all, just put it in in context.
What you know for somebody that those words may be
completely foreign. What are we even talking about.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
So an administration is when you go to court and
you get someone to pointed to administer the estate, you mean,
be in charge of it and a independent administration, administrator
can do almost whatever they want that's to the benefit
of the estate and the beneficiary of the estate without
(23:03):
court permission and very little court supervision. Somebody can always
come in and say, hey, they're they're cheating us or something,
and then the court gets involved. A dependent administration is
the court's involved the whole way through. The administrator can
make almost no decisions by themselves. Well, they can make
decisions by themselves, but they have to get the court's
(23:25):
permission to execute those decisions to follow through with it.
So you have an independent administration, and that's going to
cost you maybe you know, somewhere between, depending on who
you go to and the complexities of everything. A typical
one somewhere between two thousand and five thousand, okay. A
(23:46):
dependent administration it's going to cost you around ten thousand
if it's not complicated and you don't have any major issues.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Okay, so there's obviously a big cost different. So so
those of you listen right now, you have to think
about it this way. What do they say? What are
the two things is that is certain and certain in life?
Death and taxes and even taxes aren't certain. You cannot
pay your tax and go to prison. But death is
certain it's going to happen, and so the better you
(24:15):
can prepare yourself before that happens, it just can save
your heirs a lot of money and a lot of trouble.
So I think that's kind of at the base of
what we're talking about here.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Yeah, a lot of trouble, probably more trouble than money. Yeah,
I mean, I know that's a lot of money. Ten
thousand dollars for air quotes. Cheap dependent administration, Yeah, and
cheap is like there's one piece of real estate and
that's all that's being administered, or there's one bank account
that you have to get done with.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
So before we dive too deep into it, I want
to take another break because I really want to unpack
what a dependent talk a little bit about the independent
administration and how you set that up and how that
works after the fact.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
How to avoid a depend how to avoid.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
It, thank you, how to avoid a dependent administration, and
then paint the picture of what happens in a typical
dependent administration. So everybody's stay tuned. We're going to come
back and really unpack those things. And I think what's
going to show you is the importance of proper estate
planning so so important, and so stay tuned here to
a kV I. This is the Dana Simmons Show. Andy
(25:27):
Hemmings with capital title. Welcome back everyone to the Dana
Simmons Real Estate Show. This is Andy Hemmings with capital title,
guest host for today. And today we're talking with attorney
Jonathan Vernon. He's a state planning and a probate attorney
here in Jefferson County. And Jim, you popped in a
(25:50):
minute ago, and I believe you had a question.
Speaker 3 (25:52):
Well, I do, and it's a fascinating discussion, and I'm
enjoying the show and enjoying what you're talking about as layman.
I guess I was just wondering, after that previous caller,
why not take care of some of these matters with
the will. Simply have the deed and establish the deed
(26:14):
and ownership where you want it, and then that person
would have a proper will that would ensure that their
wishes would be done upon their passing.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Okay, all right, that's a really good question. One of
the reasons you would have a lady bird deed instead
of or in addition to a will is you just
want a smooth process where no one has to go
to court. If you have an independent administrator, court is
pretty simple. Ninety five percent or more of my cases.
(26:50):
We go into court and here in Jefferson County, a
slot a piece of paper over to the executor of
the will and it's called a proof of death in
other facts. And they've, you know, supplied me with the
information and looked over it before we're in court. So
I ask them, is everything in their true and correct?
They say yes because they've I say, are you familiar
with it? Is everything in their true and correct? They
(27:11):
answer yes to both those questions. I give them the will,
tell them to look over it for a minute at
the signatures and that sort of thing, and ask them,
you know, is that your loved one's signatures. They say yes,
they signed their they signed that proof of death and
other facts, they signed their oath, and then Judge Brannet
appoints them as the independent executor of the estate.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Yes, so it's a.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
Very easy process. Clients are always shocked, even though I
told them it's that process that it was so easy
to go through.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
But they but to start off with, they need to
come visit with you and get that will established.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
Right, So the deceased person has to get the will.
Then after the person passes away, the will needs to
be brought in to me or another attorney and we
you know, go through that process. But people are terrified.
Sorry I did gem my headphones on.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
Well, and that's what I'm wondering. Do you find that
people perhaps don't understand that probate process and they're trying
to do everything possible to avoid it, when in many
cases that may be the simplest thing to do with
property and to make sure your wishes are carried out.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yeah, I find that people overestimate the cost and burden
of an independent administration because they compare it to a
dependent administration or the cost of an administration in a
place like California. In California, uh, you know, selfishly, I
kind of want it to be that way in Texas.
(28:40):
In California, the lawyer gets a percentage of the estate. WHOA,
So you know it's on commission and you know, in
most cases, I'm going to do the same amount of
work for a five hundred thousand dollars estate and a
one hundred thousand dollars estate.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Sure, So you know you.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Get a lot more money on those bit in California,
where a home is millions of dollars get rich off
of one case. Here in Texas, it's almost always an
hourly or flat fee for an administration.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah, and so you said it was a couple of
two three thousand dollars or so start to finish soup
to nuts.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Yeah, for most cases, for most cases, for most cases
with for most cases with the will, it's around twenty
five hundred dollars. And that's covers filing feeds, recording a
new deed. But a lady bird deed is a much
simpler process. If everything goes right after you've died. That's
why people want that. And people are terrified of going
(29:39):
to court, even if it's uncontested simple and Judge Brannick
and the other probate judges I've dealt with are always
I mean, it's not contested, you're not in trouble, you
didn't do anything wrong. They know you've lost a loved one.
They're very gentle and calming.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
They are with the people.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
I got to give our probate judges a lot of
credited what they do. It's not just Brannick, it's all
the judges are you know, in Southeast Texas, and I
imagine most of the judges in Texas.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Jim, did that answer your question?
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Well, it does, and I guess the follow up I'll
leave it to you guys, is so what could go
wrong with a lady bird deed?
Speaker 1 (30:22):
All Right?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
The person you named is beneficiary, isn't alive when the
deed is execute. When when the person passes away, the
person doesn't agree to sell the property when mom decides
to move either because they're a bad child, something happened
(30:45):
to them to where they are not legally allowed to agree,
So then you're in a pickle at that point. One
of the reasons that people want a lady Bird deed,
the most common reason I come across is someone said
I needed a lady Bird Dean. They have no reason themselves,
they just heard it. That's kind of one of the
most common things. When someone comes in and asks for
a specific document that I get. Someone told me I
(31:07):
needed this, and I'm like, well, why do you need
this as opposed to that, and they're like, I don't know,
and that's what I heard. And then a really good
reason for a lady Bird deed is to avoid probate
in a situation where probate will cause a problem in
the state of Texas, if you were on Medicaid, the
(31:30):
program for people who don't have enough money for medical care.
People get Medicaid and medicare confused a lot. Medicare is
for elderly people, Medicaid is for poor people. Well, if
you go through Medicaid, you owe money to the State
of Texas, so when you die, they come with their
hand and say, give me my money back. And if
(31:52):
your state goes through probate, everything that goes through probate
can be reached by the state of Texas. If it
avoids probate, it is not reached by the state of Texas,
And that is a choice of the state of Texas.
The federal government gave the states you can seek reimbursement
for things outside of probate or not, and some states
(32:14):
chose to seek reimbursement. Texas chose not to. But I
really like doing other things to avoid Medicaid. Besides what
I'll call a naked lady bird deed, I'd want something
I usually do the lady bird deed with the trust.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Okay, in conjunction with the trust.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
It has all sorts of contingencies that I'm not comfortable
putting in a lady bird deed.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Yeah, I got you, all right, Jim. Thank you for
your astute question there. We appreciate you jumping in the conversation.
So let's go now to So you mentioned the independent
administration and how relatively inexpensive and how smooth that can
make the process go. Let's flip to the other side, though,
(32:57):
when somebody hasn't gone through that process, how your face
with a dependent administration? Give us a scenario kind and
kind of walk us through how that looks? Okay?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
All right, So let's say you did everything right, and
you have a will and you have you know, two
or three independent executors in that will, but things went
wrong and they're all dead before you, or mentally incompetent
before you, or not trustworthy enough to do this thing,
and for some reason are disqualified and cannot be the
(33:27):
independent executor. So there's no independent executor. Well, if all
the heirs agree, the court can appoint someone as an
independent administrator. An administrator is somebody who is not named
in the will, and an executor is somebody who is
a lot of times we use the term personal representative
because it covers both, okay, and it's kind of an
(33:49):
arcane difference.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
But an administrator by definition, has to be somebody that
is not in the will.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Not named in the will as executor.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Not named in will as executive.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
They can be somebody named in the will as a beneficiary.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
So most of the time, when you're in a situation
where there's no named executor either because they're all gone,
there is no will, the beneficiars of the estate get
together and agree on who should be in charge most
of the time. But there are circumstances where family's not
going to agree, and there are circumstances where family can agree,
(34:27):
Like if one of the beneficiaries of the estate is
a minor, is somebody who is mentally handicapped to the
point where the court says they're not allowed to make
decisions for themselves, And then you don't have or you know,
maybe in airs, missing somewhere and you can't find them.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, and that happens.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
It happens a lot more than people would think, especially
when you're going far down to grandchildren and stuff. Then
you cannot have a independent administration. Some of those situations
you can and if the judge says so, judge doesn't
have to say so, it's his or her decision. So
(35:07):
then you're in a dependent administration, okay. And in a
dependent administration you have to go to the judge for
permission for just about everything. There's a list of like
eight things you don't have and I'm not going to
recite them off a memory. I look at the statute, yeah,
every time, to make sure I get all of them,
(35:28):
and get all of them right. I don't want to
tell someone they can do something they can't. But there's
like eight eight or so things you can do without
going to the court for permission. Everything else you have
to go to the court for permission. And that's you know,
you pay the lawnman twenty dollars to mow the grass,
which you know, great price of these days, you have
to get the court's permission for that.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
You anything from there too. I need to sell all
the property and liquidate it because it can't be divided,
or there are all these debts to pay or or whatever.
You have to go to the court to get permission.
And let's say you know you owe someone money you
pass away. Now they have to go to court and
(36:10):
get the court's permission before the administrator can pay you.
So they got to go to court and say this
money was owed to me, and they have to prove it.
I mean it's not that hard to prove it, but
it's not that easy too, because there's a lot of arcane.
You know, you got to send it this way and
say these magic words and that sort of thing. So
(36:30):
if you owe someone money who died, you got to
go to court to get it approved. And a dependent administration,
and because the administrator cannot pay it until the judge
approves it.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah, yeah, I know that. When when we're closing a
transaction a capital title and there's a dependent administration, we
always have to make sure to explain to the parties
how the process works and that there's delays. I mean
there's a lot of times that the closings get delayed
because it's work its way through the different because there's
(37:01):
different steps in a dependent administration for approval, and even
after it closes, even after everybody signs the paper and closes,
we still have to get the judge, a final sign
off from the judge, and a lot sometimes that can
happen pretty quickly. Sometimes it may may take I can't
remember the period of time, but it can take more
than a day or so. And you know we've got
(37:22):
a buyer, yeah, definitely, and we got to buyer ready
to move into the house, and it's like it's not
done yet, and so we always have to be I
have to over explain it to people because they think
they sign the documents and it's done. It's not.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
And you know, the real estate agents normally don't take
it into consideration because you can do things in the
contract where they could move in at closing if they
don't technically own it.
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Yeah, temporary leases, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
But so when someone when you're going through that process,
you first have to get permission from the judge to
sell the home, right you got to come up with
a price and all these things and what the property
is worth, and it's pretty complicated just to just to
get permission. Right, Once you get everything together and you
(38:09):
put it before the judge, it's pretty simple. You usually
do it without a hearing. Hearing is when you go
in from the judge and you present evidence of and
arguments as to why the judge should do what you
want the judge to do. And that's basically what a
trial is. Anytime people are in front of a judge,
that's what you're doing. You're trying to get the judges
permission to do something.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, And so then you.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Go through the sales process and then within I think
it's ten days, someone and the code doesn't actually say who,
someone has to report to the court that a contract's
been signed. So, you know, you get permission to sign
a contract with a realtor to sell the property. Then
(38:52):
you get permission from the court to accept the contract
that's been signed. Then it goes to closing and everybody
signs off. Then you go to court to get permission
from the judge to you know, well, it's not really permission,
it's more of a confirmation. You call it a confirmation
from it.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (39:10):
The judge looks at everything and says, even though I've
already approved all of this, I want to second look
at it just in case.
Speaker 1 (39:17):
Yeah, because we have to send like the settlement statement.
They have to look at all the figures and make
sure and it's there to protect the airs that things,
you know that they're that they're being protected, and airs
and creditors, heirs and creditors all of those creditors they're
out there. Hey, we are going to take one more
break and come back and we're going to finish talking
about this because I know we got more to unpack.
This is Andy Hemmings with capital title, and listen right down.
(39:40):
Jonathan's phone number here four nine seven two seven four
eight four seven, give him a text and he'll be
happy to visit with you. We'll be right back. Welcome
back everyone. This is Andy Hemmings with capital title, guest
host of The Dana Simmons Show. And today we're talking
with Attorney John nothing vern In and we're specifically talking
(40:02):
about a state planning and the importance of a state
planning and some steps that you can that you can
take to help you and your heirs. So Jonathan walk
us through, Like when you meet someone meet with someone
and their interested in making sure that they've got their
errs protected and they've got their estate in order. What's
(40:22):
a typical consultation that you have with them.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
So what I do is I charge fifty dollars for
the first thirty minutes, fifty dollars for you know, over
the first thirty minutes up to a total of an hour,
and then I charge my regular hourly rate after that. Okay,
but I designed it that way because most people can
get things done in an hour. Sure, but normally I
send them some sort of questionnaire beforehand so that they
(40:48):
can save time. They have all the information they need
to answer the questions. I don't expect people to completely
fill everything out. I expect them not to, but then
go over all the documents that could be in an
estate plan, things like trusts, medical powers of attorney, power
of attorney, and will. Those are just the four most
(41:08):
common things. There are other documents too, and I would
say almost everyone needs a will, a medical power of attorney,
and a power of attorney. A lot of people don't
have any of them. And when you need those things,
they're much more expensive yeah, after the fact, because you
can't do them after the fact.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
It just creates so many problems when you don't have
those and you need them and money.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
And what those are is the will and trust kind
of govern Mostly you can sit down with me for
an hour if you want to really know all this
stuff with no commercial breaks. The will and trust are
mostly geared towards who get your stuff when you die.
The medical power of attorneys who makes medical decisions when
(41:56):
you can't, and then the power of attorney is mostly
geared towards who will make financial decisions when you can't,
and that protects you from some sort of dependent administration.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Right.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
If you can have a dependent administration while you're still alive,
that's called a guardianship. That's a whole other topic, does it. Yeah,
it would come into capital title too, yes, yeah, absolutely.
You know, someone needs to sell property and mom is
no longer in the right mind, but her property has
to be sold or it's going to be taken by
the bank or something. There's some reason it has to
(42:32):
be done.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
You know. And we still have people. We run into
people that think the power of attorney is all they need,
and it's like, the power of attorney is only good
as long as the person's still alive, that's right, Yeah, yeah,
And so we've had that.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
With certain rare exceptions that are almost never the case
for people who think that.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah. Yeah, So a will power of attorney and a
medical power of attorney and maybe some other things, but
you sit down with us.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
The basic I think that everyone should have. Yeah, everyone
who is eighteen or older. I think people younger than
that should have it too. They just can't.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Got youa Okay, I'm gonna give you Jonathan's number again.
Here it is four oh nine seven two seven four
eight four seven four oh nine seven two seven four
eight four seven. Sit down and talk with your spouse
about this. If you haven't done that yet, or even
if you're not married, definitely you're gonna want to sit
down and get your estate in order. It's it is
(43:31):
so much less expensive and so much less hassle than
not doing so. So, Jonathan, I really appreciate you being
here today.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I always appreciate the invitation.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Yes, this has been Andy Hemmings with Capital Title and
just remember capital title for your future real estate transactions.
We are in Beaumont, Orange, Lumberton Port author and Crystal Beach.
Y'all have a wonderful, wonderful weekend.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
E
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides.  Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer  Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.