Debi Manwiller (Casting Director) - “It Was Like Putting A Puzzle Together Of A Piece Of The Sky.”

If you are a big fan of 24, a lot of your thanks can go to Debi Manwiller!

Debi's ability to find talent is a key component of the 24 Universe. I frequently compare 24 to Seinfeld, because the more you re-watch each show, the more you recognize faces and names that are now leading shows, directing film and changing the landscape.

We talk about massively turning over the cast each year, helping them with the tech jargon, the 24 character named after her daughter and which of her films drew the biggest laugh from her when I mentioned it! And Debi has a contagious laugh.

Find out more about Debi at https://24.fandom.com/wiki/Debi_Manwiller

The jazzy stylings of Lyndon (Lp) Perry grace this entertaining episode. https://lyndonperry.bandcamp.com

Episode Transcript

(00:33):
Welcome to twenty years of twenty fourpodcasts. We're back with Debrah Manuiler.
Welcome to the show. You playeda big role, in a very important
role in twenty four. You werethe casting director was in twenty four,
and you've cast the best actors andactresses on any show ever produced. I
mean, twenty four still talked abouttwenty years later, and that's because of

(00:57):
the awesome casting and the awesome characterscreate it. You did an amazing job
casting twenty four, and we appreciateit as super fans, So we want
to thank you from the bottom ofour hearts. We love the super fans.
How did you get involved with thetwenty four franchise as a casting director.
It's funny because I actually replaced someone. I replaced the original casting director,

(01:22):
and they were about three weeks in, maybe two or three weeks in,
and a pilot is a crazy processand totally in a time crunch and
even in the best of circumstances.So I came on and they didn't have
anyone cast yet they put the offerto keep for the day that I came
on board, because I remember theyasked me what I thought about it and

(01:45):
what my opinion was, and youknow everyone has I say, like the
in the beginning, everyone can writea list. Everyone has the same names
on a list. So he's somebody, you know, I can't necessarily say
that I wouldn't have thought of keep, or I would have a lot of
those names come up. And hewas certainly making the rounds. He hadn't
done much television at that point,and nothing that had really made it to
air a couple of pilots. Soyeah, that's how I came on.

(02:07):
I came on board and it wasfast and furious and crazy, and and
then we started, you know,booking people with the last actor that was
booked literally like had to go onset, end wardrobe and like work within.
I think she worked the same day. I could be wrong. That
was Sarah Clarke. I have toask her, Oh Sarah, Yeah,
if memory serves me, she hadto go, she had to wardrobe.

(02:29):
I knew she had a wardrobe thatday. And what a crucial character.
I mean, my goodness, usuallyright down to the wire, he gets
cut close, but usually not quitethat A little bit heart stopping. We're
actually we're scheduled to talk to hertomorrow. Yeah, we talked to Xander
a couple of weeks ago, andthere I said hello, and Zander actually
just talked to him the other day. You know, That's the thing.

(02:50):
I got to make a lot offriends, you know, hop in front
of and behind the camera, thatyou know, friends with all these years.
It's nice and Sarah and of courseso amazing. I mean, Justin
started asking that question pretty much fromday one when we started doing this and
starting with the question of how didyou get to twenty four? And the
more we asked that question, weget so many diverse stories of how people

(03:15):
wound up. You know, likeCarlo Rota has has a different story how
he got onto twenty four than AliciaAlicia. When Alicia told us a story
of how she got onto the twentyfour, I want to hear how the
actors said they got in twenty four. Carlo had the Nikita he had done
it because he's a Canadian and hehad done and so he said, he
called Joel and the story that I'lllove to can't wait till we released that

(03:39):
one, because he said, Igot to La from Canada and I started
calling everybody I knew and he saidall his friends were like you can't do
that. You're not allowed that that'snot how you play the game. And
they tried to talk him out ofit, and he said he talked to
Joel and Joel basically said, well, we'll find a place for you.
Moment that happened great and getting hehired a lot of Canadian you know,

(04:00):
as I say, we outed allthe Canadians. Absolutely was that intentional.
It just sort of I mean,you know, because Joel and Bob had
worked on Tikida in Canada, andalso John Kassar from Canada. If you
haven't talked to John yet, sothe people that they knew from things they've
been working on rec a lot recently, a lot of them you know,
were from Canada. And then it'sjust like it just made me laugh.

(04:23):
I didn't realize how many Canadian expathsthere really were here, People that that
that I didn't even realize had hadhad been here. You know that we're
still going back and forth from Canada. So yeah, there's there were there
are still a lot, but especiallyat that time, I think that was
kind of like one of the firsthuge ways so people that I mean that
there's a lot of secret Canadians outthere. We're Canadian. I'm in Windsor

(04:44):
right across from Detroit, and I'mfrom ham I'm from the Hamilton area.
All the nicest people are Oh,thanks, thank you very much. It's
interesting. I did a lot ofresearch, kind of looking into some some
things, and when I looked,I saw that you're You're attached to pretty
much every episode. Keith was attachedto every episode, and Sean Callery.

(05:05):
But that's it. I was goingto say, I think Sean and I
and are we the only two?I guess Joel Joel, I was going
to say, out of crewe,we might be the only two. We
used to talk about that because we'rethe only ones there. The attrition rate
could be pretty high there. Wellyeah, well certainly in front of the
camera it was like, you know, killed people left and right. Sometimes

(05:28):
the attrition rate could be kind ofkind of tough behind the scenes too.
But but now Sean Sean is Yeah, you're like like the Five Timers Club
on like SNL were like the originaloriginal Gang. When you got twenty four.
What was the impact that had onyou working with that show? I
mean, it was just it wasjust a it was a great gig,
and you never I mean, younever know when you do a pilot,

(05:50):
it's like, this was fun,and you know, it's always it gets
picked up. But when I readit, and especially at that time,
that was before people were you know, people weren't downloading series and wasn't binging
and playing. Right, the firstthing, at least that I can remember,
because I've been doing this for aminute, that was really watched in
that way, and those DVD setssaved us. That's what kept us coming

(06:12):
back here after year. I mean, that was like a marketing genius thing
that they did, because then peoplecould watch it, you know, like
four or five at a time andbinge it. So like I think you
were kind of the original Bin show. But when I read it, I
just I mean I was struck byit was it was so it was really
an original idea and it was itwas a great, you know, great
ride from from the very first scriptfrom the pilot, so you know,

(06:35):
it was just it was it wasjust so much fun to be involved with
from you know, from from theget go and to keep on it.
And one of the things that especiallybeing involved in all the seasons, you
know, like some of the actors, you know, we're early on for
a few seasons just because their charactersdied or you know, they just they
were doing storyline. But that's itwas like working on a new show every

(06:56):
year, because we literally cast apilot and did a whole new show.
Was more of an anthology show,right, eight different seasons without actually being
an anthology. It was an anthologywhile being a continuing story, which is
I never thought of it until yousaid that. So, And it's funny
because I had friends or people wouldsay, you know, I have to
go back and watch from the beginning. I'm like, well you don't.

(07:18):
You don't really don't have to.I mean, I think it's just like
with anything you always it makes itricher. And then there's you know,
little easter eggs and things that referencesthat they make. But I think that
you could watch each season as astandalone. You know, it's hard for
me. I can't erase those thingsout of my mind. But I do
think that some of the seasons probablystand, you know, better on there
on than others. But but Ithink I think you could watch it that

(07:39):
way. But I'm glad people didn't. I'm glad people stayed stayed for the
long haul for the lad stayed upat four in the morning, at five
in the morning watching you know,creative. It was just it was a
great gig. It was a greatgig with great people. And like I
said, it was just something andit was you know, it wasn't casting
you know, the same role everyyear and every season though we did have

(08:01):
our share the CTU officers, andlike you know, we had our buckets
of roles that were you know,you know, in every season I probably
cast a bunch of people and saiddown man, down gon people people there
with the you know, going aroundwith the guns and talking, or you
know, people that were in thect you going let me, let me,

(08:22):
let me, let me, letme find him. We're triangulating the
area or whatever. And again learningthat dialogue. We've heard that, you
know, from a lot of differentpeople. The idea of having yet up
to speed to be able to recitethe tech dialogue, and certainly the tech
dialogue, even tech has changed somuch since in twenty years. I mean,
my goodness, the idea that Iyou know, I can if I'm

(08:45):
in the car, I can bewatching twenty four on my phone if somebody
else is driving. Of course,but I can watch twenty four on my
phone and the idea of doing that. It's hilarious considering where with season one
started. Yeah, fact, Ihadn't really thought about that, but yeah
I was. It was. Imean, it's like light years away from
you know, from what was happeningtwenty twenty years ago. That's pretty wild.
I think, you know, wewere so cutting edge twenty years ago,

(09:09):
even in the technology although and thething that people used to always joke
about. I'm sure somebody has saidit already that you know, there was
always great cell reception except twice inthe entire series. Always get a cell
connection, but no bathrooms and noeating. Yeah. Yeah, well that's
you know, in the off scenesthat that stuff happen. We figured that
stuff happens in the off scenes.There is the one scene bag reel.

(09:33):
Yeah, I think it was seasoneight. When we come in on season
eight, Jack's asleep on the couch. That's I think that's the only time
I can remember him actually being voluntarilyasleep. Yeah, we didn't introduce you
as Emmy winner. I apologize becausewe when we when we go back to
you know, the Emmy dot Comhas a page for you that lists exactly

(09:54):
which years, and so we lookinglooking at nineteen ninety six. Uh,
you know we're competing. It's Fraserand Seinfeld, I mean, super heavy
hitters. And then of course youknow four sopranos in West Wing. So
congratulations. We're a little late.We apologize, but congratulations on I'll congratulations.
And what does that do? Whatdoes that do for you? Does

(10:16):
that make your life easier being anEmmy winner? I mean, you know,
we're different than actors. We're kindof like journeymen. We don't it's
nice you get between their resume andyou can you know, I have them
on my mantle, and you know, it's nice you get to say that.
And I suppose you know, whenyou die, they say you were
an Emmy winning whatever it. Youknow there, I just think that work
does we get work and the callshappen, you know a little more frequently

(10:39):
when you're on something that's hotter forsure. And you know, like I
said, this was kind of atthe beginning of you know, like this,
you know, binge television and appointmenttelevision and sort of like the little
high ends. It's like those upanos. Certainly at the beginning of HBO being
you know HBO, right right,yes, I remember, I remember when
HBO was h BO. It wasso that's all changed, that part of

(11:03):
it. You know, that part'snice. That parts nice, But for
casting directors were you know, especiallythose you know not you know not as
staff at a studio or network andwe're sort of true independence and we're like
actors. We go from job tojob. Also, so you weren't tempted
to bring it in and set itdown on the table during a casting.

(11:24):
I did threaten. There was aShelley Winter story that she actually went into
some studio executive with her emmy ina bag, and at one point there
was there's only one producer. Ireally wasn't on twenty four that I really
really wanted to do that with someonewho wasn't nice. So I did bring
it and put it up on myshelf one day. That's a good aggressively,
as you should when it's there forthe moment when you need it.

(11:46):
It's nice to be invited to thedance. Awesome, awesome, I say,
just about a good gig, andthen you know getting you know,
I'm I'm happy behind the camera andso all those other things, they're really
nice that, you know, itisn't the reason that you know that.
I'll let you showed that to cometo work every day. A right,

(12:07):
did you grow up watching TV?I did? But you know I'm older
than both of you. No,my kids, you know, were laughing
the other day. I'm like,you know, when I was a kid,
you know, there were three channels. I mean, there wasn't even
there wasn't. I'm going to beI'm gonna be a grandpa in a couple
of weeks. Get out. Yeah, I remember, I remember the three

(12:28):
channels. Plus in Canada we hadCBC, so we had four. Okay,
so you had four? I remember, And I don't you know,
I didn't grow up. I grewup in a really blue collar family and
certainly, you know, not inthe arts. I went to get my
degree in theater, you know,at a performance cal Arts Okay, to
the arts, which you know,I say, it's like fame only college,

(12:50):
very sort of demeaning way to describeit. But it's a very you
know, small liberal arts school herein South California, and it just wasn't
you know, I grow up.You know, I didn't go to a
Broadway plane until I was in college. I didn't, you know, I
grow up, you know, havingyou know parents that were you know,
going and finding you know, documentarieson PBS. It was a very kind

(13:13):
of blue collar house. I watchedThe Flintstones and The Twilight Zone of those
kind of things growing up. Some too found my love of you know,
of cinema in theater and all thosethings. In college. You know,
I took you know, film coursesand devoured that kind of stuff.
So I sort of, you know, got bitten by that bug. Someone
took an actress, and so Igot bitten by that bug in college.

(13:35):
Well, I tried to explain tomy kids that, you know, at
dinner time, when my mom wouldcall for dinner and we had to be
at the table at a particular time, it was usually at the like five
twenty mark. So whatever show Iwas watching, usually The Monkeys or or
the Brady Bunch, whatever show Iwas watching, it wasn't like I could
pause it and come back. Andmy kids have no they have no concept

(13:56):
of them. No, it wasn'tThere was chance it was going to come
back around for at least another year, but dinner was calling, and if
you want to eat, you've gotto get to the table. So yeah,
those are those are the hardships thatI endure, not real hardships,
but you know, certainly couldn't pausethe TV and come back to it later,
No, I quite like that.Now, what excites you about about

(14:20):
casting a show? I mean,the best thing is when you're reading something
and you know the writing is good, good enough that you start to picture
where you are right, you startto see the world. We start to
envision the world, and that there'syou know, you know good and you
call it, you know, meaton the bone for the characters, and

(14:41):
there's they're drawn out so that youknow, I start to picture them.
It's just like when you read likea great novel and there's if the descriptions
are happening, and it's happening throughthe story. And so when I read
a script, if I start toif I start to picture people, or
if I start to see it,and sometimes it might people I know,
or sometimes it might be people youknow or just you know, just that

(15:03):
last week or you know, butif I can start to see that character,
and you know, the best partis bringing people into the room,
and you know, doing that partof it, you know, to watch
people bring something to life and tobring, you know, to breathe life
into these words that you know somuch, you know better or different or
something I hadn't thought of that youknow that you and I had imagined.

(15:26):
Yeah, I mean it sounds tome like you immerse yourself in a world
that doesn't exist, right, Youimmerse yourself in a world that that isn't
isn't visual there's no CTU. Whenyou're trying to cast the show. You
can't see the building of CTU tosay, Okay, this is how they're
going to work, so you haveto it. It sounds like you have
to visualize that, do you howmuch you have a lot of time to

(15:46):
sit down with the creator to kindof flesh that out before you can start
the casting process. I mean,certainly on this it was you know,
crazy crazy, crazy Town, Butin general, there's really not that much
time. The luxury of that timeyou get more in the future world than
you do in television, just becauseat the pace of it. You know,

(16:07):
on a on a series, you'regetting your scripts like every eight days
or every ten days or whatever thecycle of the scripts are, and during
that time, you know you haveto so you just kind of buy in
into what the producers and the writerare trying to trying to the story that
they're trying to tell very quickly.Kind of get into their heads about what

(16:29):
what characters might you know, what'sthe most important thing about the character,
or to kind of talk about theyou know, the qualities that you know,
is it is it like Brad Pittin this movie or where you got
it? Yeah, try to narrowit, narrow it down so you have
a picture what they're looking for.Jump in and key into what they're looking
for very quickly, because there justisn't a lot of There isn't a lot

(16:49):
of time, especially, you know, the the more that the industry has
progressed, casting gets more and moresqueezed. And sure, talk to the
editors. They have the same complaintbecause the things that happened in pre production
and in post production, those twothings are more crunched than ever right right

(17:10):
periods for sure. Well, Iremember the discussions around when Kevin Bacon started
doing the following, and it wasI think it was Kevin Williamson that basically
said we wanted Jack Bauer. Likethey weren't. They weren't being cloy about
it. They said, we wantKevin Bacon to be the next you know,
or that type of character. Sothey weren't you know, they weren't
hiding it. So as you said, if you can frame it in a
way that people can understand, Okay, what exactly are you looking for?

(17:33):
Please tell me, because the typesand just to kind of that there's a
frame of reference, and you knowthat's something you know, that's nice when
you do work with a team fora long period of time, like if
you're on for several seasons, youdeveloped a short cut with the producers,
especially you know John Kassar, whowas our main director for so many of
the episodes and later sure, andyou begin to develop kind of shortthand with

(17:53):
those people and also you know,know their taste. Not everybody has the
same taste, and you learn,I'm not going to bring up that you'regan,
that's right, and you know theydon't like them where they love so
and so or you know, itjust it's it's just a familiarity and just
a short cut away. You know, when you work with people just like
all the other you know, DaileyDepartment, cential echoes that are the same

(18:14):
thing, and you get to workwith the same team for a one period
of time. That's nice. Well, you know, it's interesting. We
talked to harvardcord in three weeks ago. He mentioned too, you know,
you said, there's a lot ofthings in a pilot that could go wrong.
But you know, with twenty four, the magic of twenty four,
a lot of it was the casting, absolutely of the of all the actors

(18:38):
and actresses that you casted. SoI think that's what contributed to the magic
of twenty four and why it's stillpopular twenty years later. And I mean
twenty four Live Another Day, therevival after four years was a big success.
What are your thoughts, what doyou think? You know, do

(18:59):
you think for is a show thatcould easily be revived today in this day
and age, considering Jack's story wasleft open maybe, I mean, you
know, part of it. Ithink sometimes the conceit was at that time
super original, and there's certain thingsthat are of a time. I'm not
saying that it couldn't, but thatalchemy of that time, at that story,

(19:22):
you know, at that point inhistory, with those actors, you
know, I the conceit, it'sa great idea to do it. That's
a you know, it's a greatframework for any show, but I think
to try, I think, youknow, to be really careful about how
you sort of remade it. Ithink they've talked about it a number of
times over the years. I'm sure, howd you know, and they've all

(19:44):
discussed, you know, you know, what would be the reason to come
back, right, Like what whatwould make it different enough to make the
audience want to tune in? Andwhat would you know? And some of
the actors maybe want to come back, But you know, what's the reason
to write that? Is there somethingin the zeitgeisten in aperculture, in the
world, or you know, Ithink that like what makes people, you
know, tune in? I meanthe whole the twenty four hour premise.

(20:07):
That's a great place to start,But I don't you don't know if it's
it's enough, you know, right, twenty four still right? And Howard
And Howard said that to us too, he goes, you know, I
mean, he said they would alllove to do another twenty four And Keifer
has said he would love to dotwenty four again. And but there has
to be a compelling reason. Theconsistency was that the idea has to be

(20:30):
great, Uh, it has tohave a real pulse, and it has
to live up to the legacy andof the show and and honor the fans
of the show. But I mean, but I mean, the bar is
very high. But many Cooto,who was interviewed in November said, you
know, you know Jack's story wasleft very open at the end of Loop

(20:53):
Another Day that you know, thereis an opportunity there to build, to
kind of build you know, whereJack ended up in Russia sort of think
and you know what happened to Jack. So I mean, hopefully that gets
resolved one day. It could Imean, you know, if it could
be done, you know, ifeverybody found a story that felt like it

(21:15):
was the one to bring back yea, because it's still the idea is still
you know, a great idea thatnobody's really you know, it hasn't and
nobody's tried to do it again,right, Yeah, there have been rip
offs and although they did take thetwenty fourth day, that's stolen that ad
nauseam. But I think what you'vedone from from cats and standpoint has been

(21:41):
spectacular and superb. Really I feelreally lucky to have you know, it
was like doing kind of eight movies, you know, right right season.
In fact, a lot of theepisodes we they were making like a movie
every you know, twenty four moviesin the in a year, because they
really were you know, a lothappened in those hours, and just the

(22:03):
scope of you know, car youknow, playing crashes and cars and people
you know on the run, andthere were there were, there were a
lot. You know, it waslike an old fashioned cereal. That's what
right when I read it and whenI realized, oh, this is the
conceit that every week there's a cliffhanger. Yeah, it's like old fashioned cereals
from the fifties exactly that they watchedin the theaters. That was That's what

(22:26):
it was like, such a greatidea. But then in the casting of
it, I have to say that, you know, you kind of go
back about what you asked about howyou you know, you get a lot
of time and you know, theytalk about the roles and thinks. And
the thing that was different about twentyfour that I've never had, never had
before, i never had since,is that they didn't in the in the

(22:48):
earlier seasons they sort of gamed outwhere they were going to go from beginning
to end, and they had apretty clear idea. But in the later
scenes of that writing on the fly, from what we've heard, it was
definitely. I mean, Howard Gordontold me once he said it was like
putting a puzzle together of the pieceof the of the sky, where all

(23:10):
puzzles were like blue or white,you just kept having to look for and
I was like, Oh, that'sexactly what it was like. I would
go up into the writer's room andand try to get tidbits about what they
might be thinking about, because thething about the casting was that we could
have somebody who might just have asmall scene, but then that character might
be like the ultimate bad guy,or they might be some really really important

(23:30):
role. And we got pretty goodabout reading a script and going, oh,
oh, this role, this one. I can tell this one's going
to you know, turn into something. And a lot of the time we
were right, but we didn't knowwhat it was going to turn into.
So that's when we you know,trapes up to the writer's room and say
okay, so this one, likewhat's this going to be? And they
would come, you know, theywould come to us and say, Okay,

(23:51):
we're going to have this role thisis going to be like a six
episode arc, and this is goingto be the person that we thinks the
bad guy, that they're not reallythe bad guy, or they helped the
bad guy or the bad girl orwhatever, they're the mole, and they
would be able to tell us someof what the character was going to be.
But even so, because they didn'tknow what the story was going to
be, really have we had tofind people that kind of, you know,

(24:18):
I could do a lot of differentthings what we were going to be
asking them to do, and sortof became sort of about, okay,
well, this is if they're goingto inhabit the world listening to you,
then okay, there's a certain kindof vibe. They need to know the
tech talk, you know, whateverthey're going to be the story that's more
on location and it's on the run, or if they're going to be part

(24:40):
of a political storyline, or sortof not knowing what the actors are going
to be asked to do. Andthe actors I'm sure echoed this too that
they most of the time didn't youknow, they didn't know a lot about
what they were going to be doing. And I used to think that that
would freak them all out. ButI think it's it's almost better if they

(25:00):
don't know, because then they're playingthat. Really, you have to play
things in the moment, right playingit for the thing you know is going
to happen, or you think thatyou think might happen, and you really
then send then the surprises and theturns, you know, can you really
come in an authentic way for theactor too. With the podcast itself is

(25:21):
supported by the twenty four Universe groupon Facebook. It's about twelve thousand people.
Actually, when we started two monthsago we had ten thousand, but
with Disney plus, I think we'regetting people all over the world that are
discovering the show for the first time. And the cool thing about this page
is that we will go on.Part of the purpose of it is to

(25:41):
keep everybody informed as to what everybody'sdoing. So we'll get on, we'll
say hey, Roger Cross is doingCorner on CBC, or Xander's doing this
movie, or Carlo's in here.So it's a lot of like pretty much
there's at least three or our postsevery single day that brings people. I
don't have to go on. Ilike to keep back of twenty four.
Yeah, yeah, I mean,I mean for us, twenty four is

(26:02):
a pedigree and a level of excellencethat when we see that somebody else that's
involved in the show is doing somethingelse, we want to at least,
as we said, there's so muchTV right now. We're long beyond the
days with three channels. There's eightmillion shows to choose from. I want
to know if Roger crosses on it, Okay, there's a there's a level
of credibility that you know, ifRoger's involved, it must be worth checking

(26:26):
out. And so in so manyways, you had a real ability to
find people that went on to buildcareers after twenty four, which is pretty
amazing, pretty amazing because they're directing. You know, everybody's doing something different
and they've all moved out and they'reactive in the business. Nice to see.
It's gratifying, and you know,it's just great to see everybody's kept

(26:48):
working. And I'm so happy thatSarah and Xanderman on the show. Is
there a casting decision that you thatyou look at and you go, we
nailed that one, We got thatperfectly. I mean, there's a there's
a lot of people I love.I really one of my favorite characters was
Greg Gitson, who played our sortof Nixonian president. I I really loved,

(27:12):
you know what he did, whathe did with that, It was
such an original thing and it wasit was just it was all him.
And he's just this you know,great you know character actor, journeyman actors
has been around, you know,for a long time and had it,
you know, sustained wonderful career whilefriends of great roles and and you know,

(27:33):
I couldn't be a nicer person,nicer human being to boot. So
you know that I love that characterin particular. And Jimmy James Morrison,
Morrison and you know, of thesepeople, like I said, they're they're
like they became friends of mine.I mean I might have been friends of
the before, just because from theconnection from the show, which was really
kind of a special place, youknow, just because we were all together

(27:55):
for for a long time. Andwell, I let when you said Nixonian,
because when he appeared on screen forthe first time, that's the first
place my mind went. I went, I have that turned up news And
it wasn't the heart wasn't intending,you could asked Joel, I don't think
I don't remember that being in thecharacter description, but maybe it was.
But just because you know, hewas just a good actor and the fact

(28:18):
that you know, people thought that, you know, when he looked like
that or had that echo from thevery beginning, and that's just a bonus.
Here's the flip side of that samequestion. Was there one you had
to fight for that you're glad youstuck with it? James Morrison was one
of the people we had to sortof fight for. I will also tell
you it's a dirty little secret,but that we replaced a lot of people

(28:45):
on the show, like from smallroles into big and I'm not gonna tell
I won't say i won't air dirtylaundry of it. Whoever, there were
the first few times we did it, I was like, oh my god,
we're gonna like, we're not gonnawe're gonna fire so and so.
None of these people were bad.Now these people, I mean, there's
some really really, really good actorsright now, and and it was all

(29:07):
in service of you know, it'sjust not what It wasn't fueling the story.
It wasn't what the you know,the writers, a couple of writers,
particularly a couple of them, youknow, would have in mind for
something certain and they just it wasn'tabout it wasn't about somebody not doing good
work. But the first time,a couple of times it happened, I
mean as a casting director, that'slike you're that's like, you know,
your worst nightmare. You get badreport from somebody on the set, or

(29:30):
that they're going to let somebody gothat you that you've hired, and I
I just I was like, man, this is it. I'm gonna I'm
gonna get tired, I'm going toget canned. This is terrible. It's
happening to him. And I realizedit was. It happened way more than
on anything I've ever been on andin and part of it I think was
due to the to the nature ofthe show, because that it didn't necessarily

(29:52):
know what the person would be askedto do. And then they'd get some
you know, start looking at dailsand go, oh no, we're we're
two more episodes down the line.We know we need them to do,
and so they would replace. Butthat that was strange. Those those actually
hit hit harder than anything else.Is like, oh, that's a that's
a tough call to have to make. That's a tough call, sure,

(30:15):
but it almost ended up in thatfile and he knows that. What's what's
fascinating about that is that we justreleased James's interview today and he he schooled
us like we felt like students whenhe was talking, because he talked about
serving the story and he took uson a journey of serving the story and
how important was He talked about auditioningfor every iteration of Star Trek there ever

(30:37):
was and not getting any of them, and he said, but what I
learned through that process was it's allabout serving the story. So when you
when you tell us on your endthat he almost wasn't on the show,
I mean that that noble death stillall the noble death that happened on twenty
four boy, that is that isstill heartbreaking watch because one of the things

(31:00):
we discussed and I asked was there'sthere's no dialogue at points between you and
Kiefer, and what you're not sayingis huge. Like watching that scene again,
it's just it's it's moving those depths. I also the other thing too,
which was it wasn't done that muchon shows at that time, especially
when we were starting to kill maincharacters you know, right right with them,

(31:23):
you know, not just to writethem off, but like to kill
them and like or for them todo something terrible and they would leave in
disgrace. That was sort of unusual. And so the first time, the
first couple of times they did,I'm like, oh, that's that's so
horrible, and I realized, oh, no, we're going to be doing
this a lot. The rules.The rules are different on the set.
So yeah, some of the Ithink they like a gag real exists somewhere

(31:45):
or you know, real about youknow, these twenty four deaths, and
they were you know, you losepeople that you know, these characters that
you love. But that's you know, I know, And I didn't watch
very many of the dailies. Iwould watch it. I watched it with
my husband, watch it as afan. I would wait and try really
hard not to watch too much ofit. I wanted to see the final
product, and I would just Iwould watch it, you know, either

(32:05):
in the DVD set's ORR. Iwould watch it you know, on no
on on air in real time.Yeah. Yeah, no. The people
that we've talked to, h we'reI think thirty thirty one at this point
and We asked the ones that thatdefinitely are dead or at least seem to
be dead, We said, doyou regret dying? Eric Balfour was a

(32:25):
great one. Do you regret Hesaid no, He said no. He
said it was an honor to go. If I'm gonna go, I'm gonna
go like that like that. That'sthe thing is like everybody knew that,
you know, it was kind ofa you know, a job has because
yeah, you came on the show. It was like, this might not
be for the entire season certainly.Yeah, we have yet to talk to

(32:46):
anybody that regretges the way they diedbecause they felt it was it served the
story. Yeah, that's that's agood that's a good point to make.
But I mean that that's that's whatall of it was, you know,
right, the choices and then thepeople that came and went in storylines,
and there were people you know,it's funny too and Marry in Rashbad that

(33:07):
was such a like a a sortof nothing character in the beginning. I
remember reading and it wasn't nothing character, but it was like, oh,
this is we're gonna plug this personinto the seed view. I understand this
is kind of like the tech girlor you know, who'll be some you
know, maybe some comic relieve asmuch as we could ever get, you
know, right right light in theroom, a little bit irony to you.

(33:29):
I'm like, oh, this isthis role. Will you know it
will probably you know, you know, it'll be a season and then it'll
go away. And then you know, Joel just fell in love with her
and just you know, he reallyreally wanted to write for her, and
I thought was great, just becauseit's a character we hadn't seen before,
and especially as a woman, andshe was just sort of like this quirky
Yeah. Did you know her beforeshe came in? Yeah, and she

(33:51):
had done Mister Show. I was, I was a fan from Mister Show.
But Punch Drunk Love had just comeout, that's right, that at
that time that I forgot we weretalking about, you know, when we
cast her and she's named after mydaughter. Oh oh wow, No,
I forgot about Punch Drunk Love.That that it's not a movie people talk
about. But boy, she wasa crucial part. She was one of

(34:13):
the sisters, right, boy,Yeah, I forgot about that. That
was That was probably the other onewhere again she comes on and from what
we understand, she wasn't probably goingto be on for very long. But
we've had discussions about how by theend she's the heart of the show in
many ways. No, she reallywas, because there were years when you
know they would go back, andespecially you know, I get this script

(34:37):
for the first, you know,episode of the next season, and I'm
like, Okay, what are weWho's who's still there? Right? Who's
still alive? We wouldn't always know, even if they were alive, necessarily
know if they were going to becoming back right until you know, right
before or even if they were comingback that they might be in the first
episode when they might be gone.And I was I was always you know,

(34:57):
holding my breath to see if Chloewould still be back. Everybody,
I'm just I'm just realizing I canask you this question, and there's nobody
else I could have asked this,And you don't have to you complete the
fifth But I remember during the filmingI Live Another Day. I remember Mia
Kershner tweeting it's nice to be backon set, and I went, oh,

(35:22):
and then it never happened. DidI dream that? And you don't
have to answer if you don't wantto. I don't remember fair enough,
fair enough, that's easy out.I just I remember, I remember,
I remember that tweet, like Ifollowed her on Twitter, and I remember
knowing that Live Another Day had beenannounced and it was it was in production

(35:45):
and I saw that and I andagain of my one of my favorite characters
on the entire series is Mandy,because we don't even know if Mandy was
her real name. The more Ithis last viewing, I went, oh,
she could have just made that up. We don't even know. There's
no real verification that that's even whoshe is. That's true because I remember

(36:06):
it was one of those characters itwas hard to cast because we weren't sure
what she was going to be,right right, Yeah, I mean,
I mean the two characters that thatwere probably most crucial to cast for season
one would have been Mandy and Sarahand Nina. Yeah. Now, from
a casting standpoint, how much ofcasting of the casting was the casting choices

(36:30):
totally up to the casting director oror did or like? How much say
did like the network executives like DanaWalden, Gary Newman, Gailberman, Kevin
Riley, and Brian Grazer, howmuch in the beginning, especially as the
show. You know, for apilot, the network is involved and we

(36:51):
do these network tests and you bringa lot of criticism. And then as
the seasons you know, began overagain, you know, we had to
approval from the network, certainly onyou know, Bigger Rolds, and you
know, sometimes have to test acouple of those characters. We know,
to have to go through the wholeprocess and more than one choice. But
you know, the network had theireyes. You know, we have to
get everything approved from one line toyou know, one hundred thousand lines.

(37:15):
They want to look at it andhave eyes on it. But you know,
the casting directors we're kind of likein some sense, we're sort of
like editors. You know, webring the selection of actors and we say,
here's the people we love and andyou know, part of our job

(37:36):
is to is to edit so thatyou're not presenting a hundred choices. You're
saying, you're these five rights fivegreat. I might be wrong about these
five or you might tell me,well, no, it's too far to
the left of center, or it'sa little bit more of this, and
then I can sort of recalibrate.But and especially in the show. The
producers did not. They had areally a short attention span for casting,

(38:02):
not like it, just like becausethere were so many other things going on.
And so I learned really early onPeggy Kennedy who since passed away,
but she and I didn't go together, that we knew that, you know,
they didn't like to spend a lotof time in casting, I guess
is what I'm really trying to say. Beside Love casting could have spent all
his all of those days there.I think he would say the same.

(38:24):
The casting is very time consuming,and so you do and it's it's a
really crucial part, but it's alsoa big time seck in the day when
you've got our department meetings and locationscouts and story meetings all these other things.
So I think we really had wewere really judicious about the people that

(38:44):
we would bring in, and sowe would bring in a really carefully crafted
session of like very few people andsay, these are the ones we believe
in this is and we got youknow, pretty good at sort of figuring
out what they might like and whatmight be better. And so we didn't
have you know, huge, youknow sessions and you know, an immense

(39:05):
amount of people for the roles we'reconsidering, you know, how important the
roles were and how long some ofthem went for you know, I look
back and I think, wow,we really really did sort of hone in
on those on those choices, youknow, fairly quickly at the beginning of
the season is setting up. That'scertainly a little bit longer process, but
you know, we you know,brought the people that we thought would be

(39:27):
best and and then you know,we calibrate along the way. And has
has the casting process changed? Wherecasting is done or how it's done?
You know, with technology evolving,with zoom now becoming more popular, how
is the casting process changed? Youknow? In the positive things are that

(39:52):
you know, it's become the worldbecome a smaller place. And where I
used to have to wait to gettapes or I couldn't, I couldn't things
in Australia or the UK or youknow, South Africa or wherever. It
was just a lot harder to youknow, to upload. People weren't uploading
files and sending things. It waslike you have to get a DVD and

(40:14):
mail it. And and that's twentyyears ago. That was still happening.
I used to put out uh breakdownservices at the end of every season,
please pick up your DVDs and you'djust from your actors demos and you know
that doesn't happen anymore. So theworld has gotten smaller in the sense of
I, and so my pool hasgotten bigger, and I have access to

(40:35):
people that I wouldn't have had accessto before, and they can send me
a pape and I can set upa session and the next morning I wake
up and I can add the Londonselects from things that you know, people
have put themselves on tape or agentshave submitted things from there. The thing
that's harder is that because everything canhappen in cyberspace, sometimes it does.

(40:58):
And the time that casting takes is, like I said, it is a
really time It can be really timeconsuming process, and so producers are it's
one of the one of the thingsthat can go out the window all of
a sudden. It's like, well, you can't get these four people in
a room. We're just gonna youknow, we're gonna have all these actors
you know, have their taped auditions. And that's a really that's for somebody,

(41:22):
you know, like I said,because I've been doing it for a
minute, and it's that part ofit. I really hope that doesn't go
completely by the way so that inthe time of COVID, it's been sort
of necessary things. I've cast thingson Zoom and it's weird. It's weird
to have the options in zoom andwe sit there and you admit people from
a little waiting room and you're doingyour scene and I'm doing it like I'm
reading to you, and it's veryit's a weird thing, you know,

(41:44):
to not have that energy with theperson in the room, but also just
the whole especially for younger actors,actors that are just starting out. I
think it's how actors get their barometer, right, the barometer from that feeling
in the room, even though thisand you know, a film screen or
how we view things and we seethings that that exchange of energy and that

(42:08):
sort of vibe that you get frompeople. For actors, especially to be
able to read the room and tolearn those things and to figure out,
you know, that's that's a lotharder thing to do. And for young
producers and directors too. I think, you know, I would hate to
see that completely go by the wayside. And I get it. You know,
there's you know, there's a timeand a place for things to happen
in cyberspace. But I would reallyI would be really sad if that weren't

(42:30):
away all together. Sure. Now, I look at what I was preparing,
we were preparing for today. Ilisted three TV shows, episodes,
extras, and Entourage. Didn't thinkabout the fact that they're all ease and
it's but they all kind of pulledthe curtain back to some degree and showed

(42:51):
the whole process to you know,people that didn't know anything about about TV
and casting and film. Is thereany anything that was portrayed in popular culture
of your role that may not beaccurate? Oh, we're always like,
oh it's so horrible. Like theworst one is La La Land, right,
like the ter Yeah, Like Ijust I watch that. I would

(43:14):
say most most pasting directors that havethat have you know, my job,
Like, I like actors. Ilove actors. I want I want to
see people, you know, youwant to see people succeed. You want
to see people do their best work. You want to try to create an
atmosphere where they feel where people feel, you know, comfortable enough to do

(43:34):
their best. Right, So Ifeel that usually you know, but that
doesn't play for laughs, so right, right, the drama side of it,
yeah, horrible parts where people arelike yeah, and I cannot say
that those things are untrue. SometimesI have rims where I'm like, you
know, horrified by things people willdo. But you know, part of
my job is that, you know, you know, I run an office

(43:58):
and I get to run the roomwhat I want and if somebody's really like
that's not going to happen. That'snot going to happen on my watch.
So no, have you ever haveyou ever seen a portrayal that it's it
right? I have to stop?Usually it's played for laughs, man.
I mean sometimes it's like, youknow, the I guess what's what's what
is right is you know the actorangst. Part of it is that when

(44:19):
you have like that table and it'sbut it's usually when they're doing like theater
auditions and they're like in a terribleroom where there's like just a tables set
up and they're looking at the headshots, and that part of it, you
know, that's it's part of whatit is, part of what it is,
right, and you're like, next, but I think what's missing mostly
is sort of the human element,and that's missing the me. It's missing

(44:40):
the you know, the casting directorof the person that's there that's walking out
and saying hello to the actors andbringing them in and you know, saying
giving you know, a word ofencouragement or you know, talking about when
someone walks into the room and youknow, you know Xander or Jim or
somebody Morrison walks in the room,like, Hey, did you see them
in the episode of Blah blah blah? Are they just of this great movie?

(45:00):
That's part of my job too.I want to create some excitement and
to get the producers and directors excitedabout the person that I'm bringing in,
educating them about the person who's goingto walk in and read for them so
that they're not coming and blown too. So you know, that's part of
my job too. So outside ofthe twenty four universe, thank you.
Outside of the twenty four universe,is there and are there? Is there

(45:21):
another show work shows that you areespecially excited about or proud of the work
that you did for them. Ilove it was really old one, but
I really love pic Offenses. Iwas like, yes, you're casting credits
and love pick advances. I wassuper, super proud of that one.
Yeah, that one, and youknow, it's funny. There's there are
some other things that I've done thatdidn't go for very long. Oh my

(45:44):
god, I'm totally blinking on thename of it that would cast Jeremy renneran.
It ran for five episodes and itI'm sure, yeah, thank you
very much. The unusuals Okay,it was, it ran it was like
two thousand and nine, that longago. Okay, Yeah, between Justin
and I, we we're kind ofIMDb bringing our brain. But Tamblin was
the female cop in it. Hewas lead in Harold Parano and it,

(46:05):
and Terry Kenney was in it andGoldberg. It was a really great cast
and it was It was one ofthose things that it was before there were
like I think if it had beeneven five years later, or if it
had been if that show belonged oncable, Sure it had been on cable,
Like there was a weirdness to it, and it just like it.
They tried to straighten out all thekinky lines in it, you know,

(46:28):
on network television, to put intothis box that it that it didn't belong
in. I shouldn't have been inYeah, that piece, so if you
can never go see those seven episodesor six episodes, really that was.
That was a really really good writing. Peter Tolon was on the producers on
that from Rescue Me and it wasa really really good I think the should
have had a lot which was great. Not back, I'm like reaching too
far back in the moment. Thatwas another one. I wish that had

(46:50):
gone for longer. That was reallyproud of that cast. That was a
great cast. That was a greatcast. Robin Toney like it was.
That was. It was a greatcast. And I was extremely disappointed when
that one, when that one didn'tdidn't get a longer run for sure.
And the other the other one thatI will draw attention to is Cabin Boy.
Oh my god, it is itis. There's Where's the greatest thing.

(47:15):
It's so Quinot Larber put it outon Blu Ray finally after people like
me just hounding them and it andI think they I think they call it
early classics. The word classic isin the title of the of the series
they put it out through, whichI wholeheartedly agree with. I used to
have a poster of that and thenin our office moves. I lost it

(47:37):
along the way. Cabin Boy,Oh my god. You know, it's
really hard to take stuff off IMDb. Malaura Walters. You know when I
saw her in Magnolia, I waslike, she was in Cabin Boy.
Like there's there's far too many throwbacksfrom that cast. Oh, if you
have a Cabin Boy story, Iwould. I did buy it because I

(47:58):
love it, and I watched itwhen it came out. I was one
of the fifteen people that went tosee it. I absolutely loved I remember
at the time Chris Elliott gave aspeech. No he was on Letterman because
that was, you know, histhing, and Chris Elliott said, you
know, mother Oscar always forgets herDanuary babies. And I was like,
of course, that's that's why youdidn't get an Oscar. I know.
That's wow. So I'll shut up. Is there is there at least a

(48:22):
Cabin Boys story? I don't evenhave a good I'm sorry, I'm going
to disappoint you there. It wastoo long ago. Did you enjoy it?
Was it? Or was it?It was a really you know,
it was one of those things wherewhen we were doing it, we didn't
know what it was going to beand right again, even it was,
it was what it was, andthe script was weird and stuff. But

(48:42):
you know, one of the thingswe thought that the special effect, like
that part of it, the specialeffects and the weirdness, like it was
twenty five years or twenty years tooearly. You're being generous, Tim Burton
part of it, right, that'swhy you want me to do it.
I'm like, this is going tobe Pools, gonna be this whole Tim
Burtney thing. And then it sortof was something different. But yes,
it's a it's a cult classic.I love that movie. I love the

(49:07):
David Lettering cameo. I've actually satmy kids down and tried to get them
to watch it a couple of timesand we get about twenty minutes in and
they go, no, I can't, I can't, I can't do any
I'm glad you did. Oh Idid. I did. Once a year
we watched Cabin Boy. My wifeis finally warmed up to it. So
funny. No, I had tobring that up because, like I said
on IMDb, you got a doublecheck to make sure, but that your

(49:29):
name was like right in the beginning, credits were ready to get in the
movie. So it's a classic.It's been named the classic by Keno Larber.
So thanks for doing that. Bythe way, I from the bottom
of my heart, it really dosincerely mean Cabin Boy is that's that's about
the level of meant, that's aboutthe level of maturity that I have.
Is Nathaniel Mayweather Sorry you were sayingjustin what advice would you give from your

(49:54):
perspective to students coming at a schoolwho want to get into the to the
acting business from you know, froma casting standpoint, what advice would you
give, you know, like whatdo you look for? Typically? What
can students you know, say someoneis looking you know, just got an

(50:14):
agent and is looking for their firstrole. It's funny because I do I
teach. I teach some beginning actingclasses and as at Loyla Mirror Mounts or
at u c l A and guestsfor different things sometimes and you know,
I love I love teaching students thatare kind of still in it or just
out of school to kind of they'renot they're not jaded yet, right,

(50:36):
and they like that perspective where theyare kind of just starting out and they
are you're sort of like, youknow, the stars and they rise about
how it's going to happen and howthey're going to do it, and I
wish I was joking saying, Iwish that there was a magic bullet that
I could give you or the magicpotion, and there is a lot.
But one of the things that Ialways tell young actors that I think in

(51:01):
the beginning too, especially you're likejust at a drama school, you're kind
of like trying to come, You'retrying to make your market everybody. There's
this part of you that wants toshow the world like everything you got,
like a to z right everything Shakespeare. You know. The one line is
is you know, like what's thebackstory and all those things, and that
you want to just show everybody hugerange you have. And I urge people

(51:27):
when they're starting out to find theirsweet spot because the spaghetti approach just throwing
it out seeing what sticks. Imean, sometimes it takes that to find
your sweet spot, but to sortof embrace it. And if you get
cast, you know, like everyrow you're going out for is an attorney
or a cop or the best friendof the teacher. It's like to sort
of embrace that part of it,like to sort of gain to gain your

(51:51):
confidence is sort of where you getyour you know, you get your sea
legs. And it's not saying thatyou won't ever get to branch out from
those roles and do those other things, but to be able to kind of
like you build your confidence, youbuild your intuition, you build you kind
of build your barometer. Right,you can put something out of the park

(52:12):
and then you kind of venture alittle further into the water and a little
further. And I know that seemscounterintuitive to kind of narrow the focus,
but I think it can help,you know, when people are just starting
out, because it is so daunting, like, oh my god, how
am I ever? Where do Istart? Right? Right? And that's
you know, the part of passingyou know too. It's like, you

(52:32):
know, not looking for someone likenot you know, not looking for another
Brad but or another Timothy Shaman oranother whoever, looking for the you know
who you are for the next person, you know, that's a different thing
the next new people. You know, to not second guess yourself and to

(52:52):
sort of kind of go over thatup your authentic place. Awesome, what
a great way to wrap up ortime. Thank you so much. W
appreciate it. I feel very blessedto have worked on it, and say
hello to all the other people.Tell them. Debbie says, Hi,
like I said, lifelong friends,great great people. Typical barrister