Howard Gordon (Accused, 24, Homeland) - "We Are In A Revolutionary Moment."

Howard Gordon once again spends time with us!

Check out his newest show "Accused" here.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
The following takes place between five pmand six pm Standard Eastern time. Hello

(00:24):
everyone, We welcome how Recorded backto our podcast twenty plus years of twenty
four. We're going to be discussingAccused with Howard and the success of Accused,
and we'll be discussing some X filesand perhaps a little bit of twenty
four near the end. Let's startwith Accused. Howard. Congratulations on the

(00:45):
success of Accused. You guys havebeen picked up for season two and the
first ten episodes I've already aired onFox. Viewers are just loving it.
The ratings are a big success,and yeah, Accused is the new hit.
So congratulations and congratulations. Yeah.First of all, I want to
thank you for joining us for thetwentieth the anniversary of twenty four. What

(01:07):
was it like kind of reuniting withwith colleagues and friends that day was What
were some of your impressions. It'sa family. I don't have else to
say it with all the attendant youknow, you know, nostalgia, you
know, mostly just really good feeling. I think for all of us it
really represented a time in our bothin our lives, our professional lives,

(01:29):
were also our personal lives that wasthat was really meaningful, and I think,
you know, I think it wasalso when you think about it,
kind of a different time, justa different time that you know that even
just structurally, like you mentioned,accused as a hit, when you think
about the difference, say between twentyfour which really did you know there was
a center of gravity and the culturethere were only four networks then, you
know, even the idea of DVDswas kind of this novel thing. In

(01:53):
a strange way. We were thebeneficiaries of both the CDs and and and
digital video recording you know TVO backthen. But anyway, the point I
digress it is it is a family. It's always been a family. And
in fact, I'm just looking ata picture of Greg Gitson, who you
know passed last year and who andand who's you know memorial I went to

(02:16):
with the you know, Cat andthe Fiddle in Hollywood and saw a bunch
of old friends. James Morrison,I mean, you know, he was
such a beloved actor and an actor'sactor and a real gentleman. I have
to you know, you know,and Andy Wershing, I mean John Cassardi
sent me some pictures and you know, this is life, right, I
mean, it's part of life,and we lose the people we love and

(02:37):
and it happens fast. But it'sreally kind of a reminder to hold on
to you know, what you've got. And I think we all feel that
way. Yeah, we were reallyhappy that Greg presided over the whole day
because there was so much. Asyou said, we saw the family and
action, we saw the love,We saw how excited people were to see
each other again. That was It'sunique. You can you can watch it
all on YouTube. We'll send youthe link. Yeah, oh really,

(03:00):
please do absolutely? Events occur inreal time dot com? That's right,
that's I'll write it down, butI have to say I will, I
will, I will. You knowit will be among my great regrets that
Greg didn't win the Emmy, andI I would gladly give him mine because
I think he deserved it so soprofoundly, events occur in real time?

(03:24):
Could you make something shorter? Wejust pulled it. Were inspired on that
one, like EO R T dotcom. Next time, all right,
we'll start with the cues. Sothe cused, as we were talking about,
is very successful on Fox and fromSony and and from you and Alex

(03:45):
Kansa, So, what inspired youto adapt Accused from from the UK and
adapted for American television. Well,it was, you know, it's a
format that was created in the UKabout twelve years ago now by Jimmy McGovern,
who someone I really admire. Hecreated the show Cracker with Robbie Coltrane,

(04:06):
which is just like, you know, a classic, And it was
a confluence of things. I love. The format is almost deceptively simple and
kind of almost and obvious, like, wow, how come this hasn't been
done A story from the point ofview of the accused that uses time going
back and forth, And it wasn'tyou know it was It's ingenious kind of
like real frankly, a little bitlike twenty four It's like, how come

(04:28):
no one's done this until Joel andBob and and similarly, this felt like
that's a great format. Now.I liked the show a great deal,
but I would say, to me, the confluence of inspirations were was that
the world again as we know it? Kind of it's been haunting me,
the sort of pace of change,some of it good, some of it
challenging. Again and whether we're talkingabout you know, social media science,

(04:54):
AI, you know, identity,race, gender, we are we're in
a revolutionary moment, and for anold guy like me wrestling with the implications
of that, I thought that thelaw and the familiar trappings of a legal
drama and the opportunity to really tellinganthology were was like catnip to me.
Additionally, it felt at the timeand by the time, I mean when

(05:15):
I was here where I am now, in factly where I've been ever since,
you know, during the pandemic,I could work with writers on a
one on one basis and it didn'thave to have a writer's room, and
we weren't like, didn't have tosit in front of a board and worry
about what came in episode two beforewe break episode three. So it felt
like it would be an opportunity tosort of take advantage of the remote conferencing

(05:36):
thing we were all in. Anythat was it, you know, you
know, it wasn't like I hada million people knocking down my door to
buy it. In anthology was kindof not unlike real time. Again,
I go back to twenty four,which you know you both are very conversant
in, but like want if youremember, nobody wanted to do a serialized
show. Now it's you know,now, no one doesn't want to do

(05:58):
a serial right back then, andit was like, oh, you know,
you'll close off these episodes and makethem all resolved, and like yeah,
sure, we said, but youknow, having no intention and no
even idea how to possibly do that. Since the show was the most highly
serialized show you could imagine. Imean, I've ever been even since then,
a more highly serialized show. Butsimilarly, the challenge here was are

(06:19):
people going to want to watch ananthology? You could point all you want
to Black Mirror, Twilight Zone toModern Love to you know whatever. There
was resistance, and I think atevery and I had, you know,
fortunately, I have you know,Mike, I had Michael Thorne. I
have Michael Thorne, you know,who was running the network and who knew
me and knew and and advocated forthe show. But also frankly was again

(06:41):
I don't think he killed me forsaying so I think was looking for an
excuse not to do it. SoI kind of had to prove wrong or
not give him that excuse at everyopportunity. I feel like the quality Again,
I'll brag about my own script,but also about the scripts that I
was able to get from other writers, so he commissioned three scripts. On
the basis of that, they sortof grudgingly ordered the series, and I

(07:02):
can tell they had buyers or worselike right away, But it was okay
because I think ultimately everyone came aroundand I think, frankly, I think
it's one of the best. Ithink it's there, I think it's a
I think it's again. I'm proudof the show, but also really proud
of the way they, meaning Michael'steams and marketing and publicity really rallied around
the show and got it out there. And I'm super I couldn't be happier,

(07:23):
you know. And again, wehad our hopes that oh, we'll
get good actors. Sure you sayit, but you don't really know at
the time you say it whether they'llactually come through. And that proved harder
then we thought as a matter ofscheduling. I mean, so there were
there were challenges that we discovered allalong the way. But anyway, that's
a long lended answer to your questionabout how it came to me. But
it was actually a Sony prop.Sony had bought the rights to it,

(07:46):
and David Shore had begun to developit and actually took one a starter to
writer's room and that didn't materialize.So they very simply they showed it to
me when I first got to Sony. Well it's interesting too because ten years
go, I when I was stillborrowing stuff from the library, I happened
on the UK version. Yeah,and I took it home and I blew

(08:07):
through it in about maybe a dayand a half, and I was just
stunned, and then took it backand then when I got it again a
couple months later and watched it again. So when I heard that you held
on to it, accused, Iwas excited because I already knew that series
and how meaningful and how that impactedme. And Ryan, had you have
you seen have you seen our versionyet? Oh yeah, I've watched.

(08:28):
I'm right up right up to date. Oh cool. I mean I got
to benefit of course from first ofall, the show was done ten years
ago, and it's obviously set kindof in this sort of you know,
kind of northern industrial you know,part of the country. But I think
right, yeah, yeah, Imean look, obviously a handful of the
episodes also, you know, becamethe inspiration for ones. We got to

(08:48):
sort of tell the Shawn Bean episodefor sure, for instance. Yeah,
yeah, yeah, it's it's oneof those things that they say some shows
are timely, but this your showis on the nerve of things that are
like even being adjudicated. Right now, I live across from Detroit. We're
right across from the Crumbly Case ofthe Parents, right like watching watching the

(09:09):
episode of Tickless, I know're soon the nerve it was, you know,
I think it's it's interesting, andI think it's the benefit of also
being at this certain age. Ifeel like there's a part of me that's
a provocateur and always I think hasbeen a little bit because I think and
part of it was really making peoplethink a little bit differently about the you

(09:31):
know, the world we're living innow, which is you know, fucked
up. Yeah, yeah, Imean it's it's there again. Like I
say, there are some fantastic things, there's some really challenging things. And
I think through the prism of thisfictional con you know show, we can
all of us, i mean processa little bit differently the complexity of things,
and there's not tidy resolutions. Ithink, no, I think honors

(09:54):
the messiness of it all. Yeah, did do you want this to be
a conversation starter? That's the it'sand the strange way it is the entire
motivation of this thing. And what'sreally gratifying is I've gotten casually and less
casually emails and texts from you know, acquaintance's friends, former colleagues who have
watched it. Improbably look, it'salso, let's be honest, network,

(10:16):
It's a network. Television isn't everyone'sfirst stop anymore. So I to get
calls from certain people who have calledme and said I caught your show.
I'm like, you know, Ilove it, made me you know again
was particularly gratifying. It was actuallyabout Ryan's saying about Accused being so timely

(10:37):
today. I thought about Accused becausethere was I was watching NBC ABC News
today and there was a moment wherewhere the news anchors were talking when uh,
when President Trump was in court.They made they made like sort of
accused us about the accused of beingin court and how they got to that

(10:58):
moment. There were the news anchorswere saying, we're saying Trump and that
in court is probably wondering how hegot to this moment today in court.
So I'm like, you know,accused is exactly about that. The accusing
court, they're wondering it shows howthey got to that moment. So it's
interesting that accused, you know,does It's very cool that it is timely

(11:18):
like that and that a lot ofstories are being are based on real events,
and yeah, how did you choosethe stories? Well, it's interesting.
I'll use the one that you justmentioned about the chicklist is the you
know, I'm the father of twoadult children for one thing, so as
a as a again, I gota man of a certain age with two

(11:41):
adult children. I sort of,you know, I just you know,
was just experiencing my own kind ofsometimes helpless as they're great kids. But
I also recognized, wow, youhave these kids, you do your best,
and then they're in the world.And I read an article about a
Japanese diplomat who who had killed hisadult son who was living at home.
Who was you know, there wasthere was a wave of crimes committed by

(12:05):
a male adult males living at home, and this got this old old he
was like a diplomatic, he wasa parliamentary and he must have been in
his mid late seventies was convinced hisson was going to do this, and
it was a very uniquely Japanese thing, and that you know, you can
I think the culture and the culturalshame was different, but I think the
problem is the same is what youknow, what would you do? And

(12:26):
all of us too always wonder well, didn't the parents know where? Couldn't
they have told? And so thatwas another interesting So those those questions kind
of really lit up my head andkind of, you know, all episodes
and all things I ever do kindof begin with a question, M yeah,
so, and so we find them. Some of them are based in
real life. I mean, youknow, again loose when I say based,
it's just the spark of an idea. I think the show still has

(12:48):
its own rhythm and poetry and kindof structure that if we were if we
said okay, it's true crime,or if we're married to the facts,
it might not be as you know, frankly, as fun to watch.
I mean, there's I think youkeep on guessing and you never quite know
what happens, and generally it's kindof a surprise, either emotionally or you
know or you know, and wedon't always get the ending that we want,

(13:09):
very similar to the UK series.You know, at the end of
it, you go, oh oh, I wish it would have gone differently.
Yeah, and some episodes, someepisodes have actually I felt sort of
ended on like cliffangers, like withoutlike it makes you wanting more, and
it's it ended like in a waylike okay, will this be resolved in
the later episode. It's funny tosay that a lot of people one of

(13:33):
the things. And I always saytesting with a grain of salt, but
it's really true. Among in theearly episodes they tested the audience wasn't that
responsible. I loved the idea ofthe dot dot dot, of the ellipses
like Kendle him with Malcolm Jamal Warnerand and but but and I found that
again there was a you know,I'm it's it's inside baseball, but to
me it was It's truly I likedthough it was a tragic ending. I

(13:56):
liked the sort of vow that WendelPears gives to but the audience some of
the but the audience echoed the testaudience is like I want an ending.
People want it leads so it leadsme to believe that that would be in
a good example of something that wewould explore, you know, a second
part on So I think some ofthe episodes do lend themselves to that.

(14:18):
Some people are just gonna have todeal with the ellipses of it all.
It's true, I mean, thediversity of the actors. There's people that
we recognize. It's people we don'trecognize that are new to us and in
a different director. Yeah, foreach episode, how is how was that?
How did that go for you?You know again? I I the
good part of being this age isyou can put you know, all your

(14:41):
chips on a thing and go gofor it and actually risk failing in a
way. And I think that bybut again, by taking those risks,
I think we really reaped some tremendouslike you know again, giving not only
a first time director like Marley Mattlinalso happened to be deaf. So I'm
just recognized the pure operational challenge ofthat, right you one would have to
question the wisdom, I guess,and on our limited time and budget and

(15:05):
our limited schedule. How again,and Billy Porter similarly had done had directed
something, but had never really doneit on that schedule, So it was
a little bit of a little bitof a you know, there's a little
recklessness, but I think a lotof wisdom and a lot of faith,
and so I think ultimately we reallyreally really got episodes that we would not

(15:26):
have gotten had we just frankly givenit to some you know, all establishment
guy or whatever whomever. Yeah,and you guys, So the series Accused
films in Toronto as opposed to inthe States. So what was filming in
Toronto like for you for Accused?For the first season, it was this.

(15:48):
It was a such a pleasure.We were very lucky to have assembled
a team that really broke their backsbut really were invested. Interesting, like,
we had a production designer who hadhad you know, was uh,
you know, had really not donea lot of television before. And we
really did bring a team. Everyonewho who I hired, you know,

(16:11):
kind of talked about the show withthe same aspiration that I had for it,
which is they really really got it. And I think that that energy
and that extra you know, effortreally is reflected in the material. But
it was great, and the citywas terrific, and I think it looks
great. I mean I think itreally for again, I'm dollar for dollar

(16:34):
in terms of getting our bang forour buck. I will tell you it
is not an Amazon show or aNetflix show or anything close to it.
But I think it looks every bitas good as anything. Well, we're
glad you came to Canada. Yeah, well, I'm so happy to be
there. And you know, gettingall the some of the twenty fourteen back
mylin and if you notice Directed andBrent Turnern Callery you have back as Sean

(16:57):
Callery is How lucky am I toget Sean? I mean, what does
Sean bring to the table for thisshow? You know what I mean?
Sean is I I think he is. I really don't use the word losing.
I think he's a genius. Ijust think he is. I do
too, thinks, and he's asneurotic and as insecure and as dedicated as
he was when he first probably showedhis first piece of music to anyone,

(17:19):
which I think that kind of fearand that kind of humility informs it all.
But very open and like we havejust a great shorthand he and I
and we're just old friends and verygood friends, and we just there's a
lot of trust. So I thinkyou can make mistakes, you can make
wrong turns and know that you're youknow, you're not going to be you
know, crucified for that. Igot a toilet zone to the theme as

(17:42):
the as the title comes in,I feel that a little bit of toilet
zone. Hey, well that's Imean, I love I never like that
was his first Just like you justthrew that down and to me and actually
remind me like Bernard Hermann or likeyes, TC thing it's but yeah it
has. But people, I thinkyou have a Pavlovian kind of lean in
when that thing comes on. Ireally you're leaning in. I agree,

(18:03):
Let's see. You're right. Ido lean in when that when that starts,
I go, okay, this isgood, this is excellent. We're
coming up on thirty years of TheX Files. Again, we're sorry to
remind you, but these are thoseare really good things to celebrate. Well,
from your history of the show,what's what do you see the legacy
of The X Files? Well,I you know it is Chris created an

(18:25):
incredible show that I think surprised everyone of us who you know started on
it and cut our teeth on theshow. And uh and I think if
you look at the you know,the people it changed it. You know,
it is one of those shows thatI'm proud to say really changed everything,
right, you know, once againwhat's interesting and what I love being

(18:48):
an underdog. I do remember myagent trying to talk to me out of
going on the show because it wason marginal network called FBC, that he
said, it's probably not going tobe here in a couple of years on
a Friday night, which is likethe graveyard spot. And there was another
show called The Adventures of Briscoe County, which at the time was like where
they put all their money on thatshow, and this was kind of the
show that they just were going toeven out the night. So no in

(19:11):
any expert it was like we werelike the garage band kind of that nobody
looked at. And then next thing, you know, a year later,
it was you know, again weall we don't remember, don't I don't
remember even the timing of any ofthese shows, including twenty four. Like
these things take. It took awhile. It wasn't right all at once.
It grew and then it kept growing, and then it really kept growing

(19:32):
and and it was a great adventureand it was wonderful to work with.
You know, it was again agreat time of life. I see some
similarities X Files, Homeland twenty fourand Accused. You don't give everybody the
happy, wrapped up ending that theywant, and that's a good thing.
I still I still remember sitting atthe at the end when again spoiler,

(19:56):
when Brody died and I went,no way they faked that there's that Well,
he'll be back in the new season. And that was as stunning to
me as anything. But I loveit. Life isn't, you know.
I think people. I think Ithink the happy ending we've almost and I
won't say we've grown past it.We kind of over corrected maybe with the
anti hero, you know, withbetween Walter White and you know and and

(20:18):
and pick Mackie. We may haveover corrected a bit, I think,
people. But life isn't as messy. Sometimes we're lucky enough to have a
uh, you know, justice,but we all know that again, life
is very complicated. So I'm gladyou appreciate that. I do too.
I'm I, you know, touse a jazz term. I love syncopation
and that downbeats. I love whenthings are kind of off rhythm and they're

(20:41):
not easily resolved right, and there'sa balance and accues too. Yeah,
there's there's some things that happen.You go, okay, good, Yeah,
I don't want to ruin it foreverybody, So I'm glad, so
glad it gets talked to you whenwe were ten episodes in instead of you
know, talking about what it wasgoing to be. Yeah, that's right.
And by the way, you're out. You know, it's interesting because
you're actually is a sociological study aboutabout crime shows and going back to the

(21:04):
Private Eye genre, which really wasabout, you know, people want order
in the world. They want toknow that there's you know that that they're
messy, ugly, unjust world.In that world, there's somebody who can
And I think that was the primaryappeal of Jack Bauer. While we're all
reeling from the trauma of nine toeleven, here's this fictional American hero who

(21:26):
is gonna, you know, notlet that happen again. And Justin and
I were thrilled. We were thrilledto see Marilyn Risko. Yes, that's
incredible. Yes, great is sheI mean, I I the fact that
she did it. You know,her mom had just passed the week before,
and she was you know, youknow, but she rallied and you

(21:48):
know, and I think it wasactually therapeutic for her. But she's just
aside from being you know, agreat, great person, hilarious as always,
and she was great in that part. And Whitney Cummings and she just
had become fast. So I loveit. People that you expect in comedy
to do drama. Yeah, blowsmy mind absolutely. I just did his

(22:10):
podcast. By the way, Ohyou were on Whitney's podcast. I don't
think it's out yet, but Idid it. I love Witneys podcast,
excellent. I'll check it out.We'll create a link once it's available.
And speaking of like Maryland, aswe were talking about mary Lynn being unaccused
and we were talking about Jack.You know, next year, it's interesting.
Next year is twenty twenty four,which is very cool. A lot

(22:33):
of fans are like saying it wouldbe cool if if twenty four can air
in twenty twenty four. I knowTodd Harthan has confirmed he's working on developing
a potential revival, and next yearwill be ten years since we last saw
Jack Bauer, and I know Foxhas indicated in the past that they want

(22:56):
to expand in twenty four franchise thereal time to other potential avenues of the
thrillers, and Kiefer has said twentyfour could be applied to other thrillers.
What is the possibility of twenty fourcoming back in your future and getting resolution
for Jack? Well, justin youknow you will be And I promise you

(23:21):
will know before my wife knows.I will. I will pick up the
phone, I will text you,I will phone you. I will keep
nothing from you the moment there isanything. At the moment I know anything.
I mean, I don't own itthe property, so they can certainly
can happen, but that you mayknow before I do. But I'll tell
you if I do know, Iwill you'll be the first to know.

(23:42):
And and look, I mean you, I tell you whenever you know,
or I should say, on theon the on the ten of your ten
emails, I answer one or two. You are persistent. But I do
tell you that you know that youknow it is something all of us will
love to do if the right ideacomes. And yes, there you know

(24:03):
we are. We have been talking. Look you know, Look I I
it's not like we haven't taken abunch of runs at a couple of iterations
and none of them have really materialized. Sometimes you just don't know. I
think what we're all dedicated to notdoing is just doing it to do it,
like nothing would be I'd rather notdo it than do something that's not
worth doing. And I think heforfeels the same way, you know,
And you know, again, Idon't want to be too precious with it,

(24:26):
but but I but I think thelast thing you want to do is
like be an old rock band wherethey're you know, you're you know,
you're out of tune. I think, I think, I think. But
but but if it's any again,if it's any consolation, the will is
there, there are you know,we the process such as it is is
you know, is happening, andI hope you know, you know,
it's like everything else, things haveto come together. But then when they

(24:48):
do, they come together quickly,and you know, and and nothing would
make me happier certainly, And thento be part of that just going to
get the casting call if we dothis, I'm telling you right now,
if I have any to do it, Justin I'm giving you a said visit
and a walk on. There's nogreater fan than Justin. He is,
like you know, when I seeDana Wolden, I say, have you

(25:10):
heard from she goes, have youheard from Justin? I'll be Justin's plus
one. You are his plus one. Well, Howard, we just want
to thank you for taking the time. Congratulations again on the renewal of Accused
for a second season, because it'sclear there are more stories you're going to
be able to tell through Accused.Well, thank you so much for supporting
it. And uh and you guysare terrific. I appreciate it. Everyone

(25:44):
stopped doing such a good job.It's just it's too much.