April 2, 2025 • 47 mins
Is zeroring training ? That's the question we ask and then we get off the rails as Jason from Blue Angel Concepts joins us. Have a listen......
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Three or three task focuses on firearms training by use
of the firearms fundamentals. This podcast is for educational purposes only.
It is not to be used as any legal advice
or justification.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
They have been listening to this podcast has got me
dealing wild talking shooting sports, Precision gave it drives three
wilds every episode that died into tactical ge style with
their wisdom and the left.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
To keep it all worth while.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
But is something not the host that really steals the
show with their expertise and humor that the pros we
all know the long range shots to the latest student
technic of the insides dot labasaul In check for one
Mole's on the three or three.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Exactical Podcast talking Michael zem and for a little last
the voices of the.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
Shooting Sports I adore teacher steal the stories leading you
will ignore it.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Is the legends of the field.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Hey everybody, welcome to the three h three Tactical Podcast
Teaching Firearms for the use of the Fundamentals. Today we
have our frequent guest reoccurring partner Jason from Blue Angel Concepts. Jason,
how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Doing I'm doing well.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
How are you all right, how are things in the heartland?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well, it's warming up. That's the one nice thing about
out here in Oklahoma. As we got short winters, so
it's warming up. And now we're just waiting for a
little bit of rain because my place is just really dry.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Doesn't rain come with towny tornado season though? Well yeah,
all right, all right, let's get this chicks off. We're
gonna start talking. You know, we've had some brochures and
moms approachures recently. And then I was kicking around and
thinking about things to talk about for this episode, and
(02:00):
then I texted you something out of blue, and I
want you to tell everyone what exactly what you text
me back? And I said, is zeroing whether it's a
pistol optic or a rifle optic training? And your response was.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
I have nothing to say about that. That was my text, mac,
That was forbad. It was if you could pick up
tone uh in text messages.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
At all, well, usually if you tex text it in
all caps, I guess the kids say that you're yelling
at someone. But we'll uh, we'll get over We'll get
over our microaggressions and texting here in a second. But
what I was talking about and when I discovered myself
and I know it because I've been teaching a long
time and you've been teaching a long time. You know.
I work in the industry, so I'm constantly shooting guns
(02:47):
and zero and guns and doing things. Well, I have
some time coming up where I'm actually going to teach
an actual class at an actual structured event, and I'm though,
you know, I really need to, you know, kind of
brush up all my stuff'll put myself through the paces,
put myself through the drills that we put the students through.
And I realized my accuracy was dead on, but my
(03:08):
speed and drawstroke and all that stuff was less than optimal.
And I started thinking, I'm like, well, how did that
come to be? And I'm like, well, because you've been
zeroing and not training.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, And uh, It's funny because we could go we
can go several different ways with this with this conversation
as far as zeroing and training. I think, you know,
depending on as an instructor, depending on what type of
class you're teaching, right, and and some of that might
even just be uh, you am I teaching a handgun
(03:43):
class with red dots? Am I teaching a rifle class,
because obviously, if you're teaching a handgun class and you
don't have a bunch of red dots in the handgun class,
you're probably spending no time zeroing, right, or very very
very little, Whereas if the handguns got red dots on it,
then you are probably you may spend a little bit
of time on zero And then if it's a basic
(04:05):
rifle school and or even advance rifle school, you might
spend some sort of time on zeroing. And then depending
on is this a basic level user course where we're
teaching new shooters or is this an advance course where
these guys should know how to zero their stuff and
it should be good to go when they show up.
Speaker 7 (04:23):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So that's kind of how I break down. I guess,
I guess time spent on zeroing when you're teaching, you know,
I guess more to your point, when you go out
to practice. You know, we harp on the fundamentals a lot,
but there there comes a point where you've got to
start speeding everything up right, everything you got to start working.
(04:47):
I guess at working speeds and not everything can be
slow and deliberate. So, so, like I said, there's there's
a couple of different ways. I guess we could take
this conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, And I think the first thing is you don't
realize that you haven't been training because you're behind the
gun a lot, especially zeroing different guns and getting those
ready to go to things and stuff. With that nature,
you feel like you've well, I shoot all the time.
I shot at least four times this month, and I
got out and I put at least a couple hundred
rounds through various different platforms. I should be good, But
(05:21):
you don't realize that you didn't. You didn't work out
that training muscle that we're going to talk about a
little later.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, And I can see like from your point, especially
you being in the industry and you know, maybe like
doing quick checks on zeros for guns because because you're
gonna demo a bunch of them, right, people are gonna
come around and shoot them. Yeah, you start to get
rusty if you're not actually practicing. I guess what some
might call, you know, either self defense skills or combat
(05:50):
skills or you know, working at the speed of life. Right,
another way of thinking about it, you know where you're where,
you're actually trying to develop some you know a good
balance between speed and accuracy and getting the gun out
of the holster and managing the gun.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Well, I think you kind of trick yourself, right, Well,
I've been behind the gun four times this month. Well, yeah,
just because you put rounds down range, it doesn't mean
you worked all the aspects or the fundamentals of marksmanship
that we talk about a lot. But I think you
can still get some training out of zeroing. And when
(06:28):
I say that, what I mean by is you can
really because you're really trying to emphasize that smooth press
to the rear, trying to take all the movement out
of the gun, making sure you have good site picture,
good sight alignment, and all those things which we're based
on your fundamentals, but it gives you that chance to
practice them as you're doing zeroing, because if you don't
have those, your zeroing is going to take forever and
(06:50):
you may never get a true zero on your gun.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Well, exactly right, And so I guess I guess what
you need to do is kind of back up and
you know, say, okay, so what's our our definition of
getting a zero? Right? When? When I guess when you
and I are talking about we're saying, well, we're gonna
got zero or we're gonna we're zeroing. We're trying to
get proper side adjustments on the weapon system, whatever it is, right,
(07:19):
so making sure that it hits well. In our case,
it would be point of any point of impact, right.
That could be different if you're depending on the use
of what you're using the gun for. If you're a
bullseye shooter, you might be zero in your guns for
a six o'clock hold, you know, so you can see
the target.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
There might be other things that I'm not aware of,
or other ways to zero your guns that I'm not
aware of, you know, other than a point of any
point of impact hit. But I think for our purposes
and what the realm that we're typically training in is
typically what we're training for. So when we say zero,
we're trying to get good side adjustments on the on
(08:00):
the weapon system so that when the shooter does what
they're supposed to do, fundamentally, the bullet hits point of aim,
point of impact, or the bullet hits where the sites
are you know, presented on the target.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
So then that being said, there's quite a few aspects
of that so if you're going out to to well here,
I'll give you an example. So I dug a little rifle,
a little seventeen mock two that was given to me
by a good friend of mine in yours for varmint
hunting around here, because I have squirrels that eat the
electrics in my truck. Yes, and so a little seventeen
(08:40):
mock two works great on him. It's I got a
little Ruger bolt action gun with a bull barrel on it.
Don't even need earplugs. Man, it's a it's a great
little gun. It's got a little scope on it. Nothing.
I don't even know what the brand is. It's nothing
too terribly expensive. But it had been rattling around in
my in my closet. I think it even fell over once,
(09:03):
and so I went out to check the zero on it. Right,
So one am I checking. I'm checking to make sure
that whatever I'm aiming at the gun's gonna hit right.
If I do my part, then the gun's gonna hit.
And I simply went, oh, probably a little more than
fifty yards. It was up on my deck down to
a little berm that I've built, put a couple of
popcns out aimed a specific spot on the POPCN and
(09:26):
you know, shot around off into the POPCN went down
and it hit pretty close to where I was aiming,
and you know, I wasn't in a very good position.
I think I just kind of leaned it over. I
have a railing up on my deck, so I think
I just rested the rifle on the railing to try
to get as much of my body out of it
as possible, and just did a quick check on zero.
So that would be, you know, example of just like
(09:48):
checking your zero right. Might do something similar if you
show up to an advanced rifle school. And I've even
seen brochures for advanced rifle schools where they don't even
spend time on it. They're like, you're right, better be
zeroed when you show up right, and they give you
no time. Others will maybe give you a time to
do a quick zero check to make sure that your
(10:08):
sites didn't get bounced off or something while in transit,
you know. And then you've got schools where, you know,
like the basic rifle schools that you and I used
to teach, where you have to actually teach the shooter
how to zero the rifle right, and so there's a
little bit different mindset. I think that goes along with
that as well. But that can't be the crux of
(10:31):
your training. You just can't sit there and you know,
and zero and try to shoot really tight groups and
just work on fundamentals the whole time. You've got to progress,
I think into you know, more what we might call
combat speed shooting, right or or you know, useful speed
(10:52):
and accuracy, you know, where where we're not trying to
make a little tight groups, we're trying to make hits
at speed at different distances.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Well, and you and I have talked and we've argued
with other coworkers that we have that well, no, I know,
it's not like we have opinions or nothing.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
We just disagree probably, but.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
We talk about the zeroing. The argument always is, well,
it takes too much time when you only have so
much time in the class. My argument always was, especially
with brand new shooters, especially on I don't care whether
it's a pistol or a rifle rifles, especially though there's
a lot of manipulation that goes that you are giving
them good repetitions at after they have done the zeroing
(11:37):
iteration where they are manipulating the safety, manipulating the magazine,
working the charging handle, working the slide of a semi
automatic pistol. That's still part of the training, especially as
a new shooter when they're coming into it, and an
important part you don't want to gloss over.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, I would agree. And when I when I took
over the rifle program at our old department, there wasn't
much written on it. And the instructor that was teaching
it before I went out to help him with one
of them, and he had the So we're talking basic
(12:16):
rifle Operators forty hour class, right, week long school, and
this is to teach people that have never shot an
AAR fifteen platform rifle how to shoot it.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
We're doing this in forty hours, which you know, some
places don't even do that and they have some places
only get like twenty hours. You only get like two
days to do it. But the first thing that they
did was they went out and he drug a bunch
of you know, sand bags out, you know, like the
boxes I think, actually we think ammal boxes. And we
put some sandbags on him and they see sandbag all
(12:47):
the rifles to let them shoot off of the sandbags
to try to get zero. And I know other people
that have done this as well too, just to try
to get the rifles zero so they could move on
to teach fundamentals and teaching you know, uh the basic
positions a prone position and kneeling and seated if you
wanted to get into all that, and uh uh yeah.
(13:12):
I always thought what I noticed was that one we struggled,
it took a long time to get zeros, and two
we ate up a lot of valuable time where we
if we were we just like you were talking about,
you can teach multiple things at once, right, so, and
I'm just talking about with rifles, you know, I always
like to teach the prone position first. It's the most
(13:34):
stable position, you know, without rest I mean without resting
the rifle, because I think if somebody understands the prone position,
then resting the rifle makes uh, you know, makes makes sense.
It makes sense when you when you actually get into
sandbagging it or using artificial supports. But I I I'm
a firm believer in fundamentals, I'm but I'm also a
firm believer in trying to teach people to be you know,
(13:57):
rifle marksmen, you know, to actually understand how a rifle works,
not just this rifle, but you know, the whole fundamental
fundamentals of being able to get into a good position
and support a rifle just using your body because you
may not have a rest, And that's a great time
to teach that and to work on zeros. Now, do
you have a lot of shooter input into the rifle
(14:17):
when you're getting the zero? You absolutely do. But I
found actually that I got zero's quicker usable zeros for
the for the rest of the class, and people's marksmanship skills,
you know, got better and better and better as you went,
and you could fine tune zero's later on if you
needed to. But I think with that too, you know
(14:41):
you're talking about how some of those other skills get
glossed over. I think you can actually work on a
bunch of those while you're teaching them how to zero
on a rifle. And I think you can do the
same thing with a pistol and with red dots. Right,
Because we didn't, we didn't pay attention and maybe I'm
missing it, but we didn't. We didn't really pay attention
a whole lot to zeros on handguns prior to red
dots being all the rage, right, I just I don't
(15:03):
remember ever spending a whole lot of time on that.
You centered them up on the on the pistol slide,
and you know, very few people really needed adjustments uh
with them. Uh, you know, and and you a lot
of that was was you know, an accuracy thing as well.
So but once we got red dots, we needed to
start paying a lot more attention to zeroing. And now
(15:24):
we needed to teach our basic you know, if you
related to police training, our basic police recruits coming through, uh,
how to how to zero those sites in as well.
And you can do the same thing you can. You
can work on all those fundamentals drawstroke, grip, uh, you
know the I don't need to do side alignment much,
you know, and until you get to the iron sights,
(15:45):
but you know, the being able to get site picture
and uh and you know in a good trigger press
as well and follow through and work all those while
you're working on getting a zero or teaching them how
to adjust the sites.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
So, but I also think I think you can spend
too much time on zero and I think there's a
point where you get diminished returns if you're you know,
where we're trying to get these little perfect, perfect groups,
and uh, there comes a point where uh, you gotta
you gotta nip it in the butt's like, Okay, that's
good enough to move on, and you know, give people
(16:18):
a brain break and an eyeball break and move on
to something different.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, I think you could definitely purtn yourself out on it.
And I just I I hate to say that it's training,
but it's it's just practicing other things as you're doing it.
And you, you and I have both learned the hard
way and the easy way that when you gloss over
teaching the fundamentals and giving that information to your students,
(16:45):
you pay for it later down the road and you
wind up having to come back and break it back
down again and rebuild it back up.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah you do, but I would tell you too, A
good instructor can work that stuff into any thing. I mean,
most of the drills. If you pay attention to how
you develop your drills and and you present your information,
you're almost always working on something you've already taught, or
(17:15):
you know something or another fundamental, even when you're introducing
something new. Right, I always and let's see, I had
a point there. I'm trying to formulate it in my head.
I've seen I've seen I've seen instructors, you know, go
to teach a new like move on. So like, okay,
(17:37):
let's maybe we got done. We're in a basic handgun program,
you know, maybe like in a police academy that's you know,
one hundred hours or ninety hours or something like that.
And so we've gotten through fundamentals and everything, and now
maybe we're getting onto managing the guns. Maybe we're doing
speed reloads, you know, or combat reloads, whatever you want
to call them. And I've seen instructors that will you know,
(18:01):
develop drills that to work one certain motion or one
certain skill and uh and completely where where where like
completely uh misses working all the other skills that go
into hitting the target right or maybe or maybe drawing
or or or maybe something else because they want to
(18:24):
isolate this one skill. When a little bit of thought
and uh, a little bit of preparation, you know, getting
your students set up properly, you can actually reinforce and
other skills that were learned before, right, instead of just
isolating one skill. Sometimes it's necessary to to isolate a
skill just to make sure one that you've got everybody's
(18:45):
physically capable of doing it without pointing the gun at
each other or you. But uh, you know, to try
to to try to teach that skill and keep it
in a real world context and reinforce other skills. You know,
that's what a good instructor would do, you know. And
that's kind of what we're talking about with with zeroing,
(19:07):
you know, where where Okay, we're gonna we're gonna zero
the gun, but I'm not gonna get down and zero
for you. And I've seen in structors that do that too,
that went out and zeroed you know, twenty year rifles. Yeah,
and you know, and and and what what what a
lost learning opportunity that is?
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
It to zero your gun? And uh, I mean I
used to I remember I used to get guys in,
especially before U well, uh you know, we always uh
usually required to have some sort of a backup iron sight.
And you know, guys come into the basic rifle operator
class that had experience and had a gun that they'd
been shooting, and I'd make them zero theirs their sights out,
(19:49):
you know, put them put them to mechanical zero, so
you know, center them out and flesh out the front
sights and and they would just lose their minds.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And you're right when you talk about incorporating it all right,
and we're talking about manipulation of a rifle or a pistol.
Might not be one of the fundamentals of marksmanship, but
it is still a key component because what are catastrophic
failures that can happen. You didn't unload the gun properly,
you didn't get it back in the holster properly, or
you didn't secure it properly, all those things. And if
(20:22):
you're taking the time with zeroing, practicing your manipulation skills
and making sure those are solid. You and I both
know that we teach programs and are better part of programs,
and we're firm believers in programs that incorporate everything, and
everything kind of works together. The manipulation of the gun
is going to work when we get back out into
(20:42):
working moultfunctions, and when we get to working mouthfunctions, that's
going to work into keeping our eyes up on the
target and all those things where things work together. So
if you're working a specific skill I manipulation, it's whether
it's with zeroing or with your drawstroke or whatever else.
You're doing is just getting that more repetition. And what
(21:03):
do we always talk about more repetitions are great? They
need to be good repetitions and that's what makes you
a more proficient shooter.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, as as an instructor, and
you know, and I've I was fortunate I had a
really good mentor, or still do, because he's one of
my best friends. Uh, but I was one of them,
and I was I had to explain this to one
of my high school students just the other day that
I think one of the most important things, uh that
(21:33):
he taught me because I would come to him with
a question. I actually I came to with this question
and so and and this this kind of plays into
what we're talking about here, and and you know, it's
gonna get a little philosophical.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
But a lot of this does get deep on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Here we go, Yeah, deep, I had I had come
with this question, Tim, I said, this is when I
took over the rifle program and and it had to
do with zeroing, uh partially. But you know, I was fortunate.
I consider myself fortunate to see the the evolution of
pistols in law enforcement and rifles. I saw it happen
(22:10):
with rifles where we went from iron sights to electronic sites,
and then I watched the same thing happen with pistols.
What fifteen years down the road after that or whatever,
and but it so with with with rifles. The question
came up. I was like, you know, because we were
spending we're still spending time zero and iron sights, and
(22:31):
we were spending a pretty good chunk of time on
iron sits. And so I started questioning, you know, you know,
how much is this well spent time? You know, and
everybody's got different opinions about it, is this well spent time?
Do we need to do we need to be spending
this much time on iron sites? Or do we even
need to be spending sites time on iron sights at all?
(22:52):
And or should we just put red dots on these
rifles and go to town and not even worry about it.
And so I posed this question into them, and you know,
like the h the answers I usually I usually didn't
get answers from him. I usually got another question. And
the question was, well, what kind of rifle program? And
actually it wasn't even rifle program, it was what kind
(23:13):
of firearms program do you want to have and you know,
do we run a do we claim to run a
fundamentals based program? Right? You know? Is is that what
we're claiming? And I was like, yes, we run a
fundamentals based program. He's like okay, and he goes if
that's if that's your philosophy, you know, then you got
(23:35):
to go from there, right. And part of fundamentals and
understanding the weapon system is understanding the sighting systems that
are on them, right, and and that is iron sights.
Not just for the fact because that one day your
batteries might go out, you might have to flip those
sites up. I actually think that that is probably a
(23:56):
very super rare occurrence. And I think the most cops,
if they pulled their rifle out and notice that their
batteries were dead and they couldn't replace the batteries, we
just put the rifle away and have somebody else deploy
a rifle. Maybe right, I don't know, uh, but uh,
you know, when when you look at it in that sense,
then yes, you've got to teach how to zero iron sights.
(24:18):
So what's my point? My point is I think that
we really have to be especially if you're running a
program if you're the one that's setting it up. And
you and I both know this, uh, you know, and
just talking about law enforcement programs, but even with civilian programs,
it all depends on who's in charge, right and at
(24:40):
the law enforcement agencies, that person can change and it
can change, you know, very often. And then so you
see these different philosophies and different techniques and different ideas
changing all the time, some good, some better. And what
it really comes down to is if you're gonna run
a program and you're gonna be successful at it, or
you're gonna be an instructor and just teach a block
(25:02):
is having I guess, understanding the big picture?
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
What's the big picture? And then how does what I'm
teaching at this moment fit in the big picture?
Speaker 5 (25:14):
Right?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
So what does that mean? So I I had one
of my junior instructors, very smart guy was out helping
he was he was injured and so he was on
the range helping us. It was one of our our
SWAT guys and SWAT medic became a SWAT sergeant. Talented
guy moved up you know, real quick, came on after me.
(25:38):
It was one of the junior guys. And he he
tells me, He says, I went to this class and
they were it was a rifle school, and they said,
when I draw my pistol, we're talking about support hand
placement when drawing the pistol, right, And so he presented
this to me, he says, because we always taught you know,
support hands. So if you're if you're in the you stance,
(26:00):
you know, a police officer stance, your hands are above
the waist. You know, this is just for you know,
police officers. Different people teach different places with the hands,
but we taught above the waist. And then when you
went to draw your support hand, fingers were you know,
palm hand was open, fingers were pointed towards the uh,
towards the threat, and so it was ready to defend you.
(26:20):
I was also ready to pick the pistol up, you know,
in your support hand as you as you drew out
and came to you know, either to ready or to gunpoint,
but it was stayed in that. We call it the
golf clap position, right, so kind of just mid section
above your belt buckle. And he said, well, I went
to this class and this is after we went to
red dots too, and he says, you know, they taught
(26:42):
that you put your hand up by the side of
your face, so your support hand comes up to head height.
That way, it picks the pistol up as the pistol
comes up to eye height and then goes straight out,
which makes it a little easier to pick up the
red dot. And I was like, okay, I said, I
understand that. I said, so using that technique, draw it already,
(27:06):
And so he did that, and he was like, Oh,
that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because now
the pistol is coming all the way up to eye
height to pick up the support hand and then coming
all the way way down to a ready position of
some sort, right, And so what's my point, long way
of saying, you got you gotta understand the big picture.
How does this particular technique, you know, not saying whether
(27:28):
it's good, whether it's bad. The first thing you should
evaluate is how does this fit into what we already teach.
How does this fit into our overall program. And that
specific technique that he was talking about was being taught
in the context of transitioning from a rifle to a
handgun that had a red dot on it. And in
that particular instance that made sense, But to teach that
(27:53):
as a default way of drawing the pistol, it didn't
fit into the rest of our program. And so I'm
a firm belief around Hopefully I haven't straight off topic
here is I'm a big believer in having a good
view of your overall program. How how is what I'm
teaching fit into everything else? And does it contradict or
does it not work with something that we've already taught, right?
(28:17):
And if it does, is it should we go back
and change it? Do we turn this train around? And
is that? Is it better?
Speaker 5 (28:22):
Is it? Well?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
You know, is this a good enough technique to do
that or not? So? So anyways, again my point being
an overall picture, you know, having the overall picture of
what you're doing, you know, the big, the big, wide
angle view of your program and of what you're trying
to accomplish can help, and it can help on how
you incorporate zeroing, how much time you spend on it
(28:45):
with students, and you know what context you're doing it
is well, you know, in your own shooting, I guess what.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I think the one thing in I have a similar story,
and you need to have to understand the person who's
teaching you what context they're teaching you. And I went
to a as a baby squat operator went to a
searching class with a bunch of high speed operators who
spent more time in the desert than I will ever know.
(29:15):
And someone asked them, well, what do you do when
it comes you have to slow down your clearance of
a of a room or a house or whatever. You
need to take your time to slow down. And the
operator kind of looked at him with a with a
little bit of a puzzled book and said slow clear
and like you could tell the concept was foreign to him,
and they explained it to him. He's like, oh, so
(29:37):
like if you're compromised or if someone's hiding, He's like, yeah,
we just throw in a couple of freed grenades. So
so you have to understand the context, not that saying
that there weren't some valuable techniques in there, but understanding
the context and how it can relate into what you're
doing on a daily basis.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yeah, and that's what's your mission, right, right, Yeah, we've
because that's been Uh. I had my mentor said this
to me one time too. He says, you know some
of that stuff that that that the military teaches, and
I always like, you know, me also being a veteran,
I was I was never a high speed, low drag
(30:17):
trigger pollar at all in the military, but the military
was it. I was in the band, played with the
played with the paras Island Marine Band.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Baby, if you had said, you know, I was a
low level something, I wouldn't let you go with it.
But I like that you're a loud, loud and proud.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Anyways, you weren't a high speed trigger polar.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah. But uh, it's been interesting to me to you know,
see especially all the stuff coming out, you know, because
we've been at war for you know, the last several years.
We've got a lot of combat vets coming back with
a lot of valuable experience, you know, and these guys
are they're branching out and they're teaching and and that's good.
That's good stuff. There's there's a lot of good knowledge
(31:02):
out there, and we just need to discern, you know,
what fits where, you know, and which which of these
military tactics because because the missions are different and they're different,
like this, officers have to do. We don't do close
quarters combat you know the or close quarters battle c QB. Right, Sorry,
(31:24):
close quarters battle, we don't. Police officers don't do that.
That's what that's what the military does. They do. Close
quarters battle. We do close quarters prisoner taking, right, because
we have to we we've got to be able to
assess threats. I mean, not as the military doesn't do that,
but I would say that officers have to do it
more because we're we're I guess we have a much
(31:48):
higher risk of of of shooting or hurting people that
are innocent, you know, and not combatants, and so so
the missions differ there, and sometimes the tactics differ. And
I would say that, you know, we've learned a lot
from the military and what they've have been teaching, uh,
and the military has learned quite a bit from us.
If you've ever read any of uh, any of the
(32:10):
stuff that Paul Howe Is has taught or you know,
in his books and his Leadership book, he talks about
specifically some tactics that they used with his unit that
were you know, law enforcement driven and so good stuff
coming out of there. Yeah. But but yeah, you got to
understand the mission. What's our mission? And that's A. That's
(32:31):
a good thing because you got guys, you got cops
that are going and they're going to these classes and
they're and they're getting good training, and they come back
with some techniques or some philosophies or some ideas that
are not conducive to our mission. You know, they're they're
they're not conducive to what we do. And some of
it is, but some of it's not. And so you
(32:53):
really got to be discerning about some of that stuff.
And I know there's a lot of debate. There's a
lot of good guys out there that talk about those.
Like I said, Paul Howe is one of my favorites.
I've never been to one of his classes. I'd love
to go, but I do. I do read read quite
a bit of.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
His stuff well, and I think there is room for
open debate. And you and I are, sometimes to our
own detriment, uh, strong defenders of teaching a fundamentally based
program that may have cost us personally personal story. Uh,
(33:28):
but you know that because we're so protective of it,
because you and I were so blessed and I've you know,
I've gotten to go to the big classes, schools, the
thunder ranches and the gun sights of the world where
you know, I consider myself super lucky that that was
my foundation that I got to build upon. Everything. That
doesn't mean that I can't do different things in the
(33:49):
you know, shooting steel matches and things like that where
your mission changes a little bit, but and you tweak
what you're doing a little bit, but I still have
that core foundation. And and uh things start coming under
stress you refer to that foundation that you've built upon.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, that that that's true. And uh wait, one of
the things that that I typically pick up on and
and and instructors who who teach shooters that who brand
new shooters, who teach people who have never shot before,
(34:28):
the typically have a little bit different philosophy on what's important.
Then maybe shooters or instructors that are deal with people
who are already skilled, you know. And I think I
think that there's lots of schools out there. You know
a lot of like I said, a lot of these
guys coming back out of the military and and police
officers as well are running schools and they and they
(34:51):
get people who already have a skill base, right, whether
it's good or bad, They've got some sort of you know,
base level of efficiency. And that's I think there's a
different philosophy in teaching you know, people at certain levels
than it is when you're teaching basics, right, when you're
teaching somebody who has never touched a gun before. Right.
(35:15):
And that's again, you know, getting into philosophy. We know
that the first time you actually learn a skill is
usually seats the deepest, right. That's it's it's those first
the first way that you that you actually learn how
to draw your pistol, and then you get multiple reps
(35:38):
on that. The first way that you learn how to
do a speed reload of some sort, you know, or
speed reload or combat reloader, you know, whatever you call it,
it is probably the way that you're going to default
under stress, you know it, because it's it's rough to deep, right.
And so that being said, uh, that instructor who is
(36:00):
teaching brand new shooters has a huge responsibility to you know,
to kind of have their ducks in a row when
they present that information and they drill that information, right,
And that's that and that that circles right back around
to your zero, right. I would tell you probably, oh,
(36:22):
I don't want to say ninety nine percent. It's probably
really close to ninety nine percent of the rifle shooters
who went through my basic rifle class, who had experience,
who knew how to shoot the rifle, like own their
own rifle, came from another police department. Some like that
did not understand the sighting system on the gun. They've
been shooting this gun for years, they've been qualifying it.
(36:43):
Whether that there are other police department, but you would
ask them, you know, okay, what is each click on
your rear site, your rear windage when you do one click?
How far does it move? I don't know, you know,
but most most people did not be left yeah, yeah, yeah,
right yeah right. It moves one way or the left
(37:04):
and right side to side it. Uh. They didn't have
a basic understanding of how the sites operated on the rifle.
I went to UH you ever heard of a guy
named Phil Singleton? Yes, Phil Singleton was a was an
S a S guy uh in the eighties. Uh, and
then he retired, got out and he taught with H
(37:27):
and K for a long time. Then he went out
on his own and UH I was fortunate to go
to his full auto instructor class and uh, I never
thought you could get sick of shooting full atto M
fours and a couple of people there with scars, and
there was a couple of people there with MP five's
even too, which was cool because I hadn't touch one
(37:49):
of those in a while. I got sick of shooting
that thing. Man. It was it was an indoor range.
It was all week long. But I will tell you, uh,
he is a great instructor. He's got great material and
he spent a large amount of time on building instructor knowledge,
(38:13):
and so we didn't only have to understand the sighting
system on our gun and the different ones that we had,
we had to understand the sighting systems on everybody's guns
in the class. So that meant we had to know
how to adjust the sites on the scars because we
had a couple of guys show up with SCAR sixteen's
and then we had a couple of guys show up
with MP fives, And then we had to understand him
(38:36):
on some of the other H and K weapons as well.
And he was a big believer in understanding it. He
says in his philosophy was and I think he's right,
is if you can understand how the sites work on
a gun, you can use it. That's all you really
need to understand. You can you can go out and
(38:56):
effectively use it. I mean, obviously got to understand the
safeties and all that. That doesn't he usually doesn't take
a rocket scientist to figure that out, but he says,
you can effectively go out and fight with a gun
if you can understand how the sighting system works on it.
And uh, I thought that was pretty profound when I
went through the class that because I really had never
thought about it in that kind of depth. But he
(39:19):
was absolutely right, you know. And so I used to
spend you know, a good chunk of time teaching students
how their sighting systems work so that they understand it,
so that when they came to a next level class,
so they came to in service, we weren't spending time
on zeroing, right if they needed to check zero or
(39:39):
they could do that all on their own and uh
and they could they could adjust their sites. So uh,
I think that's important. I think that that's that's an
important thing, is to have that knowledge and understand at
least your sighting system on the guns that you carry.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Right and being self sufficient because never it never failed
you either had to change them, ount your sites got moved,
you turned on, uh, you know a litany of reasons.
Nothing's more friendly than a guy who dow is your
sites for you. But uh, you know you need to
understand it, and I will tell you this is not
(40:16):
the conversation I thought we were going to have at all.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Oh that's good, that's that's a that's the beauty of
podcasts that we don't script anything out.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
That that's what that never happens when you and I talk.
You know. Uh, I thought we're gonna talk about training
and things we should and shouldn't be doing. But well,
we'll do that the next time.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Well, so to answer to answer your your beginning question,
is zeroing training, I would say it can be.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Right right, So, uh, the wonderful copy answer of it depends.
It depends, all right, right, you know what, what are
you incorporating into it? I think? But again I think
it also comes back to the foundation of this podcast.
Is it really is buried in those fundamentals of part
(41:12):
of your zeroing and getting yourself on, getting yourself in
the gun. Don't do not cheat yourself and think that
just because you're making a gun go bang that you're
training either, don't you don't let yourself into that false hope.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
No, that's true. And you know, if you list out
the fundamentals, you know to of your fundamentals are side
alim in site picture and to understand side aliine in
site picture, you gotta know how to zero the gun
and understand that. And then if you're an instructor, you
got to know how to teach people how to do that.
You can't zero guns for it. And I'm a firm
believer that you should not zero people's guns.
Speaker 6 (41:47):
Now.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
I have picked up guns to check them to see
where they're at because the shooter was having so many
fundamental problems because they're a brand new shooter that I
couldn't get a good reach. So I have picked up
people's guns and show them to see where they were at.
But I refuse to zero people's guns for.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Them right well. And there there are times too when
when you're running a full class or you're in a class,
and you may see this if you go to a
training class where the instructor picks up the gun and
gives it just some rough zero and then we're moving
forward from that. And if you pay attention to it.
You know, the inside baseball, the instructor is watching that
person to make sure they finally understand it, and eventually
(42:27):
they may put their own adjustment in zero. But sometimes,
like you talked about earlier, you have chased the zero
for so long and you're just frustrating yourself and you're
not getting You've got that diminishing returns. You're not getting
anything out of it.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yep, that's true. And you can always you know, if
you really wanted to see if somebody understood it, you
could always test him on it.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
That's true. Uh, in those sites, a couple switches with
the screwdriver makes everything go away. Yeah, if you ever
want to see cops feel uncomfortable, go to like an
advanced class or a real high speed operator class. And
first thing you're tell them is I'm going to spin
your sights and want lunch. The looks on our face.
Speaker 7 (43:09):
I know I.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Did it because I would get you know, we'd get
a bunch of lateral officers in to go through our
basic rifle class so they can start carrying rifles on
our department. And uh, that's exactly what I would do
with them. And yeah, they they absolutely hate it.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
It's it's the it's the I want to go fast,
ricky Bobby thing. I'm not. I'm not here to zero long,
here to put rounds down range. Yeah, okay, I'll learn that.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Bubble gum.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
There it is.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
There's a reference for you.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
That's right, all right. Jason will tell you one about
Blue Inch of Concepts and where they can find you.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
Uh, you can find me at Blue Angel Concepts dot com.
You can send me an email at Blue Angel Concepts
at gmail dot com. I got my shop up and running,
so I do custom work. I do customs stippling. I'm
going to start building some custom nineteen eleven's and custom
glock pistols or you know, striker files striker fired style pistols,
(44:17):
and I will have coatings coming out here pretty soon.
I'm getting a spray booth built up here and we'll
be able to start doing those two. So I'm in
the Tulsa area, just just about thirty minutes south of
Tulsa in Sapulpa. So if anybody's interested in any of that,
you can hit my website. I'm still still kind of
(44:37):
building it up and uh, pretty soon. Going to have
a gonna start blogging on there here pretty soon, So
I've got I got some big things coming, so I'll
keep you in the loop as the business starts to
get a little bit.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Bigger, excellent. As always, you can find us at the
three oh three Tactical Podcast on Instagram, also at three
oh three Tactical Training at gmail dot com. And for
those of you who are asking where they can hear
more of our fabulous theme song that cost me fifty
dollars to have invented, you can hear the full version
(45:09):
of at the end. If you want the lyrics, don't
ask me because I'm not sure what they all are
and I would have to write them all out. So
make sure you get some time on the range and
actually do some training and practicing and really kind of
push yourself. Make sure you're staying up on your skills. Jason,
we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
All right, man, We'll see you later. They have been
listening to this podcast has got me do a wild talking.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Showing stories Precision named the dryste Wild every episode that
died into tactical Quira style with their wisdom and the
left of keep.
Speaker 5 (45:38):
It All worth while what is something not? The host
that really stills show with their expertise and.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
Humor that the pros we all know long range shots
to the latest student technic that he insides dot we
have a.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Soul in check for one bus on the creative breaks
at the podcast talking level, settle and through little Last,
the voice says.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
At the shooting sports, I endure teacher, steal the stories they.
Speaker 7 (45:58):
Do you want, ignore and.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
So your chamby is the legends of the field.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Sharing tells a triumph the strategies that weel from the
steet to sniper and cover.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
It all with the fashion so would fetches.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
It's the shooters called the renver gets tuned in episode
to episode Sharon teph centricks that make us ready to
explode in the world wood marksmanship is Calmon Robberie.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
They are the voices of experience, setting our spirits free.
Oh I'm bo's on.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
The three or three tactical podcast Talking Chel Sattle and
the thrill the Little Last, the boy says of the shooting.
Speaker 5 (46:29):
Sports, I adore teachers, steal the stories leading me one
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Speaker 4 (46:34):
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the voices on the Shooting Sports I adore, teachers steal
the stories, leading.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
Me on and more listens.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
I'm the host that really steals the show with their
expertise and humor. They're the pearls we all know, from
long range shots to the latest and the technic of
the insights that leave us all in check.
Speaker 7 (46:52):
Oh, the three or three Tactical Podcast Talking Chel Sattle
and the Thrill, the Little Last, the Boss of the
Shooting Sports I adore, or teachers steal the stories? Either
me want ignore or it's on the three or three
Tactical Podcast Tony Michael Saddle and the Thrill of the
Last Third.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
The boy says, I'm the Shooting Sports I ignore, teacher
steal the stories?
Speaker 7 (47:11):
Either you want ignore?
Speaker 5 (47:12):
You have a third or three tactical podcasts. The Wine
Camera says, I Shooting Sports A love Dever shot at
the twists from the range of the hunt. They've got
us on our way, their super podcast that keeps us.
Speaker 7 (47:21):
Saying the studying each day.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
Yeah, the three or.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
Three Tactical Podcast, It's the.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Wine Camera, sys Were you shoe?
Speaker 5 (47:27):
He sports? A lot of Denver shot at the twist
and from the range to the hunt. They got us
on our way, Your super podcast
Speaker 7 (47:32):
That keeps us saving strange each day,
Three or three task focuses on firearms training by use
of the firearms fundamentals. This podcast is for educational purposes only.
It is not to be used as any legal advice
or justification.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
They have been listening to this podcast has got me
dealing wild talking shooting sports, Precision gave it drives three
wilds every episode that died into tactical ge style with
their wisdom and the left.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
To keep it all worth while.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
But is something not the host that really steals the
show with their expertise and humor that the pros we
all know the long range shots to the latest student
technic of the insides dot labasaul In check for one
Mole's on the three or three.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Exactical Podcast talking Michael zem and for a little last
the voices of the.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
Shooting Sports I adore teacher steal the stories leading you
will ignore it.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Is the legends of the field.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Hey everybody, welcome to the three h three Tactical Podcast
Teaching Firearms for the use of the Fundamentals. Today we
have our frequent guest reoccurring partner Jason from Blue Angel Concepts. Jason,
how are you.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Doing I'm doing well.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
How are you all right, how are things in the heartland?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well, it's warming up. That's the one nice thing about
out here in Oklahoma. As we got short winters, so
it's warming up. And now we're just waiting for a
little bit of rain because my place is just really dry.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Doesn't rain come with towny tornado season though? Well yeah,
all right, all right, let's get this chicks off. We're
gonna start talking. You know, we've had some brochures and
moms approachures recently. And then I was kicking around and
thinking about things to talk about for this episode, and
(02:00):
then I texted you something out of blue, and I
want you to tell everyone what exactly what you text
me back? And I said, is zeroing whether it's a
pistol optic or a rifle optic training? And your response was.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
I have nothing to say about that. That was my text, mac,
That was forbad. It was if you could pick up
tone uh in text messages.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
At all, well, usually if you tex text it in
all caps, I guess the kids say that you're yelling
at someone. But we'll uh, we'll get over We'll get
over our microaggressions and texting here in a second. But
what I was talking about and when I discovered myself
and I know it because I've been teaching a long
time and you've been teaching a long time. You know.
I work in the industry, so I'm constantly shooting guns
(02:47):
and zero and guns and doing things. Well, I have
some time coming up where I'm actually going to teach
an actual class at an actual structured event, and I'm though,
you know, I really need to, you know, kind of
brush up all my stuff'll put myself through the paces,
put myself through the drills that we put the students through.
And I realized my accuracy was dead on, but my
(03:08):
speed and drawstroke and all that stuff was less than optimal.
And I started thinking, I'm like, well, how did that
come to be? And I'm like, well, because you've been
zeroing and not training.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
Yeah, And uh, It's funny because we could go we
can go several different ways with this with this conversation
as far as zeroing and training. I think, you know,
depending on as an instructor, depending on what type of
class you're teaching, right, and and some of that might
even just be uh, you am I teaching a handgun
(03:43):
class with red dots? Am I teaching a rifle class,
because obviously, if you're teaching a handgun class and you
don't have a bunch of red dots in the handgun class,
you're probably spending no time zeroing, right, or very very
very little, Whereas if the handguns got red dots on it,
then you are probably you may spend a little bit
of time on zero And then if it's a basic
(04:05):
rifle school and or even advance rifle school, you might
spend some sort of time on zeroing. And then depending
on is this a basic level user course where we're
teaching new shooters or is this an advance course where
these guys should know how to zero their stuff and
it should be good to go when they show up.
Speaker 7 (04:23):
You know.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So that's kind of how I break down. I guess,
I guess time spent on zeroing when you're teaching, you know,
I guess more to your point, when you go out
to practice. You know, we harp on the fundamentals a lot,
but there there comes a point where you've got to
start speeding everything up right, everything you got to start working.
(04:47):
I guess at working speeds and not everything can be
slow and deliberate. So, so, like I said, there's there's
a couple of different ways. I guess we could take
this conversation.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Well, And I think the first thing is you don't
realize that you haven't been training because you're behind the
gun a lot, especially zeroing different guns and getting those
ready to go to things and stuff. With that nature,
you feel like you've well, I shoot all the time.
I shot at least four times this month, and I
got out and I put at least a couple hundred
rounds through various different platforms. I should be good, But
(05:21):
you don't realize that you didn't. You didn't work out
that training muscle that we're going to talk about a
little later.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Yeah, And I can see like from your point, especially
you being in the industry and you know, maybe like
doing quick checks on zeros for guns because because you're
gonna demo a bunch of them, right, people are gonna
come around and shoot them. Yeah, you start to get
rusty if you're not actually practicing. I guess what some
might call, you know, either self defense skills or combat
(05:50):
skills or you know, working at the speed of life. Right,
another way of thinking about it, you know where you're where,
you're actually trying to develop some you know a good
balance between speed and accuracy and getting the gun out
of the holster and managing the gun.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Well, I think you kind of trick yourself, right, Well,
I've been behind the gun four times this month. Well, yeah,
just because you put rounds down range, it doesn't mean
you worked all the aspects or the fundamentals of marksmanship
that we talk about a lot. But I think you
can still get some training out of zeroing. And when
(06:28):
I say that, what I mean by is you can
really because you're really trying to emphasize that smooth press
to the rear, trying to take all the movement out
of the gun, making sure you have good site picture,
good sight alignment, and all those things which we're based
on your fundamentals, but it gives you that chance to
practice them as you're doing zeroing, because if you don't
have those, your zeroing is going to take forever and
(06:50):
you may never get a true zero on your gun.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Well, exactly right, And so I guess I guess what
you need to do is kind of back up and
you know, say, okay, so what's our our definition of
getting a zero? Right? When? When I guess when you
and I are talking about we're saying, well, we're gonna
got zero or we're gonna we're zeroing. We're trying to
get proper side adjustments on the weapon system, whatever it is, right,
(07:19):
so making sure that it hits well. In our case,
it would be point of any point of impact, right.
That could be different if you're depending on the use
of what you're using the gun for. If you're a
bullseye shooter, you might be zero in your guns for
a six o'clock hold, you know, so you can see
the target.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
You know.
Speaker 3 (07:38):
There might be other things that I'm not aware of,
or other ways to zero your guns that I'm not
aware of, you know, other than a point of any
point of impact hit. But I think for our purposes
and what the realm that we're typically training in is
typically what we're training for. So when we say zero,
we're trying to get good side adjustments on the on
(08:00):
the weapon system so that when the shooter does what
they're supposed to do, fundamentally, the bullet hits point of aim,
point of impact, or the bullet hits where the sites
are you know, presented on the target.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Right.
Speaker 3 (08:16):
So then that being said, there's quite a few aspects
of that so if you're going out to to well here,
I'll give you an example. So I dug a little rifle,
a little seventeen mock two that was given to me
by a good friend of mine in yours for varmint
hunting around here, because I have squirrels that eat the
electrics in my truck. Yes, and so a little seventeen
(08:40):
mock two works great on him. It's I got a
little Ruger bolt action gun with a bull barrel on it.
Don't even need earplugs. Man, it's a it's a great
little gun. It's got a little scope on it. Nothing.
I don't even know what the brand is. It's nothing
too terribly expensive. But it had been rattling around in
my in my closet. I think it even fell over once,
(09:03):
and so I went out to check the zero on it. Right,
So one am I checking. I'm checking to make sure
that whatever I'm aiming at the gun's gonna hit right.
If I do my part, then the gun's gonna hit.
And I simply went, oh, probably a little more than
fifty yards. It was up on my deck down to
a little berm that I've built, put a couple of
popcns out aimed a specific spot on the POPCN and
(09:26):
you know, shot around off into the POPCN went down
and it hit pretty close to where I was aiming,
and you know, I wasn't in a very good position.
I think I just kind of leaned it over. I
have a railing up on my deck, so I think
I just rested the rifle on the railing to try
to get as much of my body out of it
as possible, and just did a quick check on zero.
So that would be, you know, example of just like
(09:48):
checking your zero right. Might do something similar if you
show up to an advanced rifle school. And I've even
seen brochures for advanced rifle schools where they don't even
spend time on it. They're like, you're right, better be
zeroed when you show up right, and they give you
no time. Others will maybe give you a time to
do a quick zero check to make sure that your
(10:08):
sites didn't get bounced off or something while in transit,
you know. And then you've got schools where, you know,
like the basic rifle schools that you and I used
to teach, where you have to actually teach the shooter
how to zero the rifle right, and so there's a
little bit different mindset. I think that goes along with
that as well. But that can't be the crux of
(10:31):
your training. You just can't sit there and you know,
and zero and try to shoot really tight groups and
just work on fundamentals the whole time. You've got to progress,
I think into you know, more what we might call
combat speed shooting, right or or you know, useful speed
(10:52):
and accuracy, you know, where where we're not trying to
make a little tight groups, we're trying to make hits
at speed at different distances.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Well, and you and I have talked and we've argued
with other coworkers that we have that well, no, I know,
it's not like we have opinions or nothing.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
We just disagree probably, but.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
We talk about the zeroing. The argument always is, well,
it takes too much time when you only have so
much time in the class. My argument always was, especially
with brand new shooters, especially on I don't care whether
it's a pistol or a rifle rifles, especially though there's
a lot of manipulation that goes that you are giving
them good repetitions at after they have done the zeroing
(11:37):
iteration where they are manipulating the safety, manipulating the magazine,
working the charging handle, working the slide of a semi
automatic pistol. That's still part of the training, especially as
a new shooter when they're coming into it, and an
important part you don't want to gloss over.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, I would agree. And when I when I took
over the rifle program at our old department, there wasn't
much written on it. And the instructor that was teaching
it before I went out to help him with one
of them, and he had the So we're talking basic
(12:16):
rifle Operators forty hour class, right, week long school, and
this is to teach people that have never shot an
AAR fifteen platform rifle how to shoot it.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Right.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
We're doing this in forty hours, which you know, some
places don't even do that and they have some places
only get like twenty hours. You only get like two
days to do it. But the first thing that they
did was they went out and he drug a bunch
of you know, sand bags out, you know, like the
boxes I think, actually we think ammal boxes. And we
put some sandbags on him and they see sandbag all
(12:47):
the rifles to let them shoot off of the sandbags
to try to get zero. And I know other people
that have done this as well too, just to try
to get the rifles zero so they could move on
to teach fundamentals and teaching you know, uh the basic
positions a prone position and kneeling and seated if you
wanted to get into all that, and uh uh yeah.
(13:12):
I always thought what I noticed was that one we struggled,
it took a long time to get zeros, and two
we ate up a lot of valuable time where we
if we were we just like you were talking about,
you can teach multiple things at once, right, so, and
I'm just talking about with rifles, you know, I always
like to teach the prone position first. It's the most
(13:34):
stable position, you know, without rest I mean without resting
the rifle, because I think if somebody understands the prone position,
then resting the rifle makes uh, you know, makes makes sense.
It makes sense when you when you actually get into
sandbagging it or using artificial supports. But I I I'm
a firm believer in fundamentals, I'm but I'm also a
firm believer in trying to teach people to be you know,
(13:57):
rifle marksmen, you know, to actually understand how a rifle works,
not just this rifle, but you know, the whole fundamental
fundamentals of being able to get into a good position
and support a rifle just using your body because you
may not have a rest, And that's a great time
to teach that and to work on zeros. Now, do
you have a lot of shooter input into the rifle
(14:17):
when you're getting the zero? You absolutely do. But I
found actually that I got zero's quicker usable zeros for
the for the rest of the class, and people's marksmanship skills,
you know, got better and better and better as you went,
and you could fine tune zero's later on if you
needed to. But I think with that too, you know
(14:41):
you're talking about how some of those other skills get
glossed over. I think you can actually work on a
bunch of those while you're teaching them how to zero
on a rifle. And I think you can do the
same thing with a pistol and with red dots. Right,
Because we didn't, we didn't pay attention and maybe I'm
missing it, but we didn't. We didn't really pay attention
a whole lot to zeros on handguns prior to red
dots being all the rage, right, I just I don't
(15:03):
remember ever spending a whole lot of time on that.
You centered them up on the on the pistol slide,
and you know, very few people really needed adjustments uh
with them. Uh, you know, and and you a lot
of that was was you know, an accuracy thing as well.
So but once we got red dots, we needed to
start paying a lot more attention to zeroing. And now
(15:24):
we needed to teach our basic you know, if you
related to police training, our basic police recruits coming through, uh,
how to how to zero those sites in as well.
And you can do the same thing you can. You
can work on all those fundamentals drawstroke, grip, uh, you
know the I don't need to do side alignment much,
you know, and until you get to the iron sights,
(15:45):
but you know, the being able to get site picture
and uh and you know in a good trigger press
as well and follow through and work all those while
you're working on getting a zero or teaching them how
to adjust the sites.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
So, but I also think I think you can spend
too much time on zero and I think there's a
point where you get diminished returns if you're you know,
where we're trying to get these little perfect, perfect groups,
and uh, there comes a point where uh, you gotta
you gotta nip it in the butt's like, Okay, that's
good enough to move on, and you know, give people
(16:18):
a brain break and an eyeball break and move on
to something different.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, I think you could definitely purtn yourself out on it.
And I just I I hate to say that it's training,
but it's it's just practicing other things as you're doing it.
And you, you and I have both learned the hard
way and the easy way that when you gloss over
teaching the fundamentals and giving that information to your students,
(16:45):
you pay for it later down the road and you
wind up having to come back and break it back
down again and rebuild it back up.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah you do, but I would tell you too, A
good instructor can work that stuff into any thing. I mean,
most of the drills. If you pay attention to how
you develop your drills and and you present your information,
you're almost always working on something you've already taught, or
(17:15):
you know something or another fundamental, even when you're introducing
something new. Right, I always and let's see, I had
a point there. I'm trying to formulate it in my head.
I've seen I've seen I've seen instructors, you know, go
to teach a new like move on. So like, okay,
(17:37):
let's maybe we got done. We're in a basic handgun program,
you know, maybe like in a police academy that's you know,
one hundred hours or ninety hours or something like that.
And so we've gotten through fundamentals and everything, and now
maybe we're getting onto managing the guns. Maybe we're doing
speed reloads, you know, or combat reloads, whatever you want
to call them. And I've seen instructors that will you know,
(18:01):
develop drills that to work one certain motion or one
certain skill and uh and completely where where where like
completely uh misses working all the other skills that go
into hitting the target right or maybe or maybe drawing
or or or maybe something else because they want to
(18:24):
isolate this one skill. When a little bit of thought
and uh, a little bit of preparation, you know, getting
your students set up properly, you can actually reinforce and
other skills that were learned before, right, instead of just
isolating one skill. Sometimes it's necessary to to isolate a
skill just to make sure one that you've got everybody's
(18:45):
physically capable of doing it without pointing the gun at
each other or you. But uh, you know, to try
to to try to teach that skill and keep it
in a real world context and reinforce other skills. You know,
that's what a good instructor would do, you know. And
that's kind of what we're talking about with with zeroing,
(19:07):
you know, where where Okay, we're gonna we're gonna zero
the gun, but I'm not gonna get down and zero
for you. And I've seen in structors that do that too,
that went out and zeroed you know, twenty year rifles. Yeah,
and you know, and and and what what what a
lost learning opportunity that is?
Speaker 5 (19:27):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:28):
It to zero your gun? And uh, I mean I
used to I remember I used to get guys in,
especially before U well, uh you know, we always uh
usually required to have some sort of a backup iron sight.
And you know, guys come into the basic rifle operator
class that had experience and had a gun that they'd
been shooting, and I'd make them zero theirs their sights out,
(19:49):
you know, put them put them to mechanical zero, so
you know, center them out and flesh out the front
sights and and they would just lose their minds.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
And you're right when you talk about incorporating it all right,
and we're talking about manipulation of a rifle or a pistol.
Might not be one of the fundamentals of marksmanship, but
it is still a key component because what are catastrophic
failures that can happen. You didn't unload the gun properly,
you didn't get it back in the holster properly, or
you didn't secure it properly, all those things. And if
(20:22):
you're taking the time with zeroing, practicing your manipulation skills
and making sure those are solid. You and I both
know that we teach programs and are better part of programs,
and we're firm believers in programs that incorporate everything, and
everything kind of works together. The manipulation of the gun
is going to work when we get back out into
(20:42):
working moultfunctions, and when we get to working mouthfunctions, that's
going to work into keeping our eyes up on the
target and all those things where things work together. So
if you're working a specific skill I manipulation, it's whether
it's with zeroing or with your drawstroke or whatever else.
You're doing is just getting that more repetition. And what
(21:03):
do we always talk about more repetitions are great? They
need to be good repetitions and that's what makes you
a more proficient shooter.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, as as an instructor, and
you know, and I've I was fortunate I had a
really good mentor, or still do, because he's one of
my best friends. Uh, but I was one of them,
and I was I had to explain this to one
of my high school students just the other day that
I think one of the most important things, uh that
(21:33):
he taught me because I would come to him with
a question. I actually I came to with this question
and so and and this this kind of plays into
what we're talking about here, and and you know, it's
gonna get a little philosophical.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
But a lot of this does get deep on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Here we go, Yeah, deep, I had I had come
with this question, Tim, I said, this is when I
took over the rifle program and and it had to
do with zeroing, uh partially. But you know, I was fortunate.
I consider myself fortunate to see the the evolution of
pistols in law enforcement and rifles. I saw it happen
(22:10):
with rifles where we went from iron sights to electronic sites,
and then I watched the same thing happen with pistols.
What fifteen years down the road after that or whatever,
and but it so with with with rifles. The question
came up. I was like, you know, because we were
spending we're still spending time zero and iron sights, and
(22:31):
we were spending a pretty good chunk of time on
iron sits. And so I started questioning, you know, you know,
how much is this well spent time? You know, and
everybody's got different opinions about it, is this well spent time?
Do we need to do we need to be spending
this much time on iron sites? Or do we even
need to be spending sites time on iron sights at all?
(22:52):
And or should we just put red dots on these
rifles and go to town and not even worry about it.
And so I posed this question into them, and you know,
like the h the answers I usually I usually didn't
get answers from him. I usually got another question. And
the question was, well, what kind of rifle program? And
actually it wasn't even rifle program, it was what kind
(23:13):
of firearms program do you want to have and you know,
do we run a do we claim to run a
fundamentals based program? Right? You know? Is is that what
we're claiming? And I was like, yes, we run a
fundamentals based program. He's like okay, and he goes if
that's if that's your philosophy, you know, then you got
(23:35):
to go from there, right. And part of fundamentals and
understanding the weapon system is understanding the sighting systems that
are on them, right, and and that is iron sights.
Not just for the fact because that one day your
batteries might go out, you might have to flip those
sites up. I actually think that that is probably a
(23:56):
very super rare occurrence. And I think the most cops,
if they pulled their rifle out and notice that their
batteries were dead and they couldn't replace the batteries, we
just put the rifle away and have somebody else deploy
a rifle. Maybe right, I don't know, uh, but uh,
you know, when when you look at it in that sense,
then yes, you've got to teach how to zero iron sights.
(24:18):
So what's my point? My point is I think that
we really have to be especially if you're running a
program if you're the one that's setting it up. And
you and I both know this, uh, you know, and
just talking about law enforcement programs, but even with civilian programs,
it all depends on who's in charge, right and at
(24:40):
the law enforcement agencies, that person can change and it
can change, you know, very often. And then so you
see these different philosophies and different techniques and different ideas
changing all the time, some good, some better. And what
it really comes down to is if you're gonna run
a program and you're gonna be successful at it, or
you're gonna be an instructor and just teach a block
(25:02):
is having I guess, understanding the big picture?
Speaker 5 (25:06):
Right?
Speaker 3 (25:07):
What's the big picture? And then how does what I'm
teaching at this moment fit in the big picture?
Speaker 5 (25:14):
Right?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
So what does that mean? So I I had one
of my junior instructors, very smart guy was out helping
he was he was injured and so he was on
the range helping us. It was one of our our
SWAT guys and SWAT medic became a SWAT sergeant. Talented
guy moved up you know, real quick, came on after me.
(25:38):
It was one of the junior guys. And he he
tells me, He says, I went to this class and
they were it was a rifle school, and they said,
when I draw my pistol, we're talking about support hand
placement when drawing the pistol, right, And so he presented
this to me, he says, because we always taught you know,
support hands. So if you're if you're in the you stance,
(26:00):
you know, a police officer stance, your hands are above
the waist. You know, this is just for you know,
police officers. Different people teach different places with the hands,
but we taught above the waist. And then when you
went to draw your support hand, fingers were you know,
palm hand was open, fingers were pointed towards the uh,
towards the threat, and so it was ready to defend you.
(26:20):
I was also ready to pick the pistol up, you know,
in your support hand as you as you drew out
and came to you know, either to ready or to gunpoint,
but it was stayed in that. We call it the
golf clap position, right, so kind of just mid section
above your belt buckle. And he said, well, I went
to this class and this is after we went to
red dots too, and he says, you know, they taught
(26:42):
that you put your hand up by the side of
your face, so your support hand comes up to head height.
That way, it picks the pistol up as the pistol
comes up to eye height and then goes straight out,
which makes it a little easier to pick up the
red dot. And I was like, okay, I said, I
understand that. I said, so using that technique, draw it already,
(27:06):
And so he did that, and he was like, Oh,
that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, because now
the pistol is coming all the way up to eye
height to pick up the support hand and then coming
all the way way down to a ready position of
some sort, right, And so what's my point, long way
of saying, you got you gotta understand the big picture.
How does this particular technique, you know, not saying whether
(27:28):
it's good, whether it's bad. The first thing you should
evaluate is how does this fit into what we already teach.
How does this fit into our overall program. And that
specific technique that he was talking about was being taught
in the context of transitioning from a rifle to a
handgun that had a red dot on it. And in
that particular instance that made sense, But to teach that
(27:53):
as a default way of drawing the pistol, it didn't
fit into the rest of our program. And so I'm
a firm belief around Hopefully I haven't straight off topic
here is I'm a big believer in having a good
view of your overall program. How how is what I'm
teaching fit into everything else? And does it contradict or
does it not work with something that we've already taught, right?
(28:17):
And if it does, is it should we go back
and change it? Do we turn this train around? And
is that? Is it better?
Speaker 5 (28:22):
Is it? Well?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
You know, is this a good enough technique to do
that or not? So? So anyways, again my point being
an overall picture, you know, having the overall picture of
what you're doing, you know, the big, the big, wide
angle view of your program and of what you're trying
to accomplish can help, and it can help on how
you incorporate zeroing, how much time you spend on it
(28:45):
with students, and you know what context you're doing it
is well, you know, in your own shooting, I guess what.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I think the one thing in I have a similar story,
and you need to have to understand the person who's
teaching you what context they're teaching you. And I went
to a as a baby squat operator went to a
searching class with a bunch of high speed operators who
spent more time in the desert than I will ever know.
(29:15):
And someone asked them, well, what do you do when
it comes you have to slow down your clearance of
a of a room or a house or whatever. You
need to take your time to slow down. And the
operator kind of looked at him with a with a
little bit of a puzzled book and said slow clear
and like you could tell the concept was foreign to him,
and they explained it to him. He's like, oh, so
(29:37):
like if you're compromised or if someone's hiding, He's like, yeah,
we just throw in a couple of freed grenades. So
so you have to understand the context, not that saying
that there weren't some valuable techniques in there, but understanding
the context and how it can relate into what you're
doing on a daily basis.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Yeah, and that's what's your mission, right, right, Yeah, we've
because that's been Uh. I had my mentor said this
to me one time too. He says, you know some
of that stuff that that that the military teaches, and
I always like, you know, me also being a veteran,
I was I was never a high speed, low drag
(30:17):
trigger pollar at all in the military, but the military
was it. I was in the band, played with the
played with the paras Island Marine Band.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Baby, if you had said, you know, I was a
low level something, I wouldn't let you go with it.
But I like that you're a loud, loud and proud.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Anyways, you weren't a high speed trigger polar.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Yeah. But uh, it's been interesting to me to you know,
see especially all the stuff coming out, you know, because
we've been at war for you know, the last several years.
We've got a lot of combat vets coming back with
a lot of valuable experience, you know, and these guys
are they're branching out and they're teaching and and that's good.
That's good stuff. There's there's a lot of good knowledge
(31:02):
out there, and we just need to discern, you know,
what fits where, you know, and which which of these
military tactics because because the missions are different and they're different,
like this, officers have to do. We don't do close
quarters combat you know the or close quarters battle c QB. Right, Sorry,
(31:24):
close quarters battle, we don't. Police officers don't do that.
That's what that's what the military does. They do. Close
quarters battle. We do close quarters prisoner taking, right, because
we have to we we've got to be able to
assess threats. I mean, not as the military doesn't do that,
but I would say that officers have to do it
more because we're we're I guess we have a much
(31:48):
higher risk of of of shooting or hurting people that
are innocent, you know, and not combatants, and so so
the missions differ there, and sometimes the tactics differ. And
I would say that, you know, we've learned a lot
from the military and what they've have been teaching, uh,
and the military has learned quite a bit from us.
If you've ever read any of uh, any of the
(32:10):
stuff that Paul Howe Is has taught or you know,
in his books and his Leadership book, he talks about
specifically some tactics that they used with his unit that
were you know, law enforcement driven and so good stuff
coming out of there. Yeah. But but yeah, you got to
understand the mission. What's our mission? And that's A. That's
(32:31):
a good thing because you got guys, you got cops
that are going and they're going to these classes and
they're and they're getting good training, and they come back
with some techniques or some philosophies or some ideas that
are not conducive to our mission. You know, they're they're
they're not conducive to what we do. And some of
it is, but some of it's not. And so you
(32:53):
really got to be discerning about some of that stuff.
And I know there's a lot of debate. There's a
lot of good guys out there that talk about those.
Like I said, Paul Howe is one of my favorites.
I've never been to one of his classes. I'd love
to go, but I do. I do read read quite
a bit of.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
His stuff well, and I think there is room for
open debate. And you and I are, sometimes to our
own detriment, uh, strong defenders of teaching a fundamentally based
program that may have cost us personally personal story. Uh,
(33:28):
but you know that because we're so protective of it,
because you and I were so blessed and I've you know,
I've gotten to go to the big classes, schools, the
thunder ranches and the gun sights of the world where
you know, I consider myself super lucky that that was
my foundation that I got to build upon. Everything. That
doesn't mean that I can't do different things in the
(33:49):
you know, shooting steel matches and things like that where
your mission changes a little bit, but and you tweak
what you're doing a little bit, but I still have
that core foundation. And and uh things start coming under
stress you refer to that foundation that you've built upon.
Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, that that that's true. And uh wait, one of
the things that that I typically pick up on and
and and instructors who who teach shooters that who brand
new shooters, who teach people who have never shot before,
(34:28):
the typically have a little bit different philosophy on what's important.
Then maybe shooters or instructors that are deal with people
who are already skilled, you know. And I think I
think that there's lots of schools out there. You know
a lot of like I said, a lot of these
guys coming back out of the military and and police
officers as well are running schools and they and they
(34:51):
get people who already have a skill base, right, whether
it's good or bad, They've got some sort of you know,
base level of efficiency. And that's I think there's a
different philosophy in teaching you know, people at certain levels
than it is when you're teaching basics, right, when you're
teaching somebody who has never touched a gun before. Right.
(35:15):
And that's again, you know, getting into philosophy. We know
that the first time you actually learn a skill is
usually seats the deepest, right. That's it's it's those first
the first way that you that you actually learn how
to draw your pistol, and then you get multiple reps
(35:38):
on that. The first way that you learn how to
do a speed reload of some sort, you know, or
speed reload or combat reloader, you know, whatever you call it,
it is probably the way that you're going to default
under stress, you know it, because it's it's rough to deep, right.
And so that being said, uh, that instructor who is
(36:00):
teaching brand new shooters has a huge responsibility to you know,
to kind of have their ducks in a row when
they present that information and they drill that information, right,
And that's that and that that circles right back around
to your zero, right. I would tell you probably, oh,
(36:22):
I don't want to say ninety nine percent. It's probably
really close to ninety nine percent of the rifle shooters
who went through my basic rifle class, who had experience,
who knew how to shoot the rifle, like own their
own rifle, came from another police department. Some like that
did not understand the sighting system on the gun. They've
been shooting this gun for years, they've been qualifying it.
(36:43):
Whether that there are other police department, but you would
ask them, you know, okay, what is each click on
your rear site, your rear windage when you do one click?
How far does it move? I don't know, you know,
but most most people did not be left yeah, yeah, yeah,
right yeah right. It moves one way or the left
(37:04):
and right side to side it. Uh. They didn't have
a basic understanding of how the sites operated on the rifle.
I went to UH you ever heard of a guy
named Phil Singleton? Yes, Phil Singleton was a was an
S a S guy uh in the eighties. Uh, and
then he retired, got out and he taught with H
(37:27):
and K for a long time. Then he went out
on his own and UH I was fortunate to go
to his full auto instructor class and uh, I never
thought you could get sick of shooting full atto M
fours and a couple of people there with scars, and
there was a couple of people there with MP five's
even too, which was cool because I hadn't touch one
(37:49):
of those in a while. I got sick of shooting
that thing. Man. It was it was an indoor range.
It was all week long. But I will tell you, uh,
he is a great instructor. He's got great material and
he spent a large amount of time on building instructor knowledge,
(38:13):
and so we didn't only have to understand the sighting
system on our gun and the different ones that we had,
we had to understand the sighting systems on everybody's guns
in the class. So that meant we had to know
how to adjust the sites on the scars because we
had a couple of guys show up with SCAR sixteen's
and then we had a couple of guys show up
with MP fives, And then we had to understand him
(38:36):
on some of the other H and K weapons as well.
And he was a big believer in understanding it. He
says in his philosophy was and I think he's right,
is if you can understand how the sites work on
a gun, you can use it. That's all you really
need to understand. You can you can go out and
(38:56):
effectively use it. I mean, obviously got to understand the
safeties and all that. That doesn't he usually doesn't take
a rocket scientist to figure that out, but he says,
you can effectively go out and fight with a gun
if you can understand how the sighting system works on it.
And uh, I thought that was pretty profound when I
went through the class that because I really had never
thought about it in that kind of depth. But he
(39:19):
was absolutely right, you know. And so I used to
spend you know, a good chunk of time teaching students
how their sighting systems work so that they understand it,
so that when they came to a next level class,
so they came to in service, we weren't spending time
on zeroing, right if they needed to check zero or
(39:39):
they could do that all on their own and uh
and they could they could adjust their sites. So uh,
I think that's important. I think that that's that's an
important thing, is to have that knowledge and understand at
least your sighting system on the guns that you carry.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
Right and being self sufficient because never it never failed
you either had to change them, ount your sites got moved,
you turned on, uh, you know a litany of reasons.
Nothing's more friendly than a guy who dow is your
sites for you. But uh, you know you need to
understand it, and I will tell you this is not
(40:16):
the conversation I thought we were going to have at all.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Oh that's good, that's that's a that's the beauty of
podcasts that we don't script anything out.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
That that's what that never happens when you and I talk.
You know. Uh, I thought we're gonna talk about training
and things we should and shouldn't be doing. But well,
we'll do that the next time.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Well, so to answer to answer your your beginning question,
is zeroing training, I would say it can be.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
Right right, So, uh, the wonderful copy answer of it depends.
It depends, all right, right, you know what, what are
you incorporating into it? I think? But again I think
it also comes back to the foundation of this podcast.
Is it really is buried in those fundamentals of part
(41:12):
of your zeroing and getting yourself on, getting yourself in
the gun. Don't do not cheat yourself and think that
just because you're making a gun go bang that you're
training either, don't you don't let yourself into that false hope.
Speaker 3 (41:25):
No, that's true. And you know, if you list out
the fundamentals, you know to of your fundamentals are side
alim in site picture and to understand side aliine in
site picture, you gotta know how to zero the gun
and understand that. And then if you're an instructor, you
got to know how to teach people how to do that.
You can't zero guns for it. And I'm a firm
believer that you should not zero people's guns.
Speaker 6 (41:47):
Now.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
I have picked up guns to check them to see
where they're at because the shooter was having so many
fundamental problems because they're a brand new shooter that I
couldn't get a good reach. So I have picked up
people's guns and show them to see where they were at.
But I refuse to zero people's guns for.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Them right well. And there there are times too when
when you're running a full class or you're in a class,
and you may see this if you go to a
training class where the instructor picks up the gun and
gives it just some rough zero and then we're moving
forward from that. And if you pay attention to it.
You know, the inside baseball, the instructor is watching that
person to make sure they finally understand it, and eventually
(42:27):
they may put their own adjustment in zero. But sometimes,
like you talked about earlier, you have chased the zero
for so long and you're just frustrating yourself and you're
not getting You've got that diminishing returns. You're not getting
anything out of it.
Speaker 3 (42:41):
Yep, that's true. And you can always you know, if
you really wanted to see if somebody understood it, you
could always test him on it.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
That's true. Uh, in those sites, a couple switches with
the screwdriver makes everything go away. Yeah, if you ever
want to see cops feel uncomfortable, go to like an
advanced class or a real high speed operator class. And
first thing you're tell them is I'm going to spin
your sights and want lunch. The looks on our face.
Speaker 7 (43:09):
I know I.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Did it because I would get you know, we'd get
a bunch of lateral officers in to go through our
basic rifle class so they can start carrying rifles on
our department. And uh, that's exactly what I would do
with them. And yeah, they they absolutely hate it.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
It's it's the it's the I want to go fast,
ricky Bobby thing. I'm not. I'm not here to zero long,
here to put rounds down range. Yeah, okay, I'll learn that.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
I'm here to kick ass and chew bubble gum. Bubble gum.
Speaker 4 (43:43):
There it is.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
There's a reference for you.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
That's right, all right. Jason will tell you one about
Blue Inch of Concepts and where they can find you.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
Uh, you can find me at Blue Angel Concepts dot com.
You can send me an email at Blue Angel Concepts
at gmail dot com. I got my shop up and running,
so I do custom work. I do customs stippling. I'm
going to start building some custom nineteen eleven's and custom
glock pistols or you know, striker files striker fired style pistols,
(44:17):
and I will have coatings coming out here pretty soon.
I'm getting a spray booth built up here and we'll
be able to start doing those two. So I'm in
the Tulsa area, just just about thirty minutes south of
Tulsa in Sapulpa. So if anybody's interested in any of that,
you can hit my website. I'm still still kind of
(44:37):
building it up and uh, pretty soon. Going to have
a gonna start blogging on there here pretty soon, So
I've got I got some big things coming, so I'll
keep you in the loop as the business starts to
get a little bit.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Bigger, excellent. As always, you can find us at the
three oh three Tactical Podcast on Instagram, also at three
oh three Tactical Training at gmail dot com. And for
those of you who are asking where they can hear
more of our fabulous theme song that cost me fifty
dollars to have invented, you can hear the full version
(45:09):
of at the end. If you want the lyrics, don't
ask me because I'm not sure what they all are
and I would have to write them all out. So
make sure you get some time on the range and
actually do some training and practicing and really kind of
push yourself. Make sure you're staying up on your skills. Jason,
we'll talk to you next time.
Speaker 3 (45:25):
All right, man, We'll see you later. They have been
listening to this podcast has got me do a wild talking.
Speaker 2 (45:32):
Showing stories Precision named the dryste Wild every episode that
died into tactical Quira style with their wisdom and the
left of keep.
Speaker 5 (45:38):
It All worth while what is something not? The host
that really stills show with their expertise and.
Speaker 2 (45:43):
Humor that the pros we all know long range shots
to the latest student technic that he insides dot we
have a.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
Soul in check for one bus on the creative breaks
at the podcast talking level, settle and through little Last,
the voice says.
Speaker 5 (45:55):
At the shooting sports, I endure teacher, steal the stories they.
Speaker 7 (45:58):
Do you want, ignore and.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (46:04):
So your chamby is the legends of the field.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Sharing tells a triumph the strategies that weel from the
steet to sniper and cover.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
It all with the fashion so would fetches.
Speaker 2 (46:12):
It's the shooters called the renver gets tuned in episode
to episode Sharon teph centricks that make us ready to
explode in the world wood marksmanship is Calmon Robberie.
Speaker 5 (46:20):
They are the voices of experience, setting our spirits free.
Oh I'm bo's on.
Speaker 4 (46:23):
The three or three tactical podcast Talking Chel Sattle and
the thrill the Little Last, the boy says of the shooting.
Speaker 5 (46:29):
Sports, I adore teachers, steal the stories leading me one
and more or tell the three or three.
Speaker 4 (46:34):
Tactical podcast Talking Lepel Sattle and then Thrill, the Little Last,
the voices on the Shooting Sports I adore, teachers steal
the stories, leading.
Speaker 5 (46:41):
Me on and more listens.
Speaker 2 (46:42):
I'm the host that really steals the show with their
expertise and humor. They're the pearls we all know, from
long range shots to the latest and the technic of
the insights that leave us all in check.
Speaker 7 (46:52):
Oh, the three or three Tactical Podcast Talking Chel Sattle
and the Thrill, the Little Last, the Boss of the
Shooting Sports I adore, or teachers steal the stories? Either
me want ignore or it's on the three or three
Tactical Podcast Tony Michael Saddle and the Thrill of the
Last Third.
Speaker 4 (47:07):
The boy says, I'm the Shooting Sports I ignore, teacher
steal the stories?
Speaker 7 (47:11):
Either you want ignore?
Speaker 5 (47:12):
You have a third or three tactical podcasts. The Wine
Camera says, I Shooting Sports A love Dever shot at
the twists from the range of the hunt. They've got
us on our way, their super podcast that keeps us.
Speaker 7 (47:21):
Saying the studying each day.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
Yeah, the three or.
Speaker 5 (47:24):
Three Tactical Podcast, It's the.
Speaker 3 (47:25):
Wine Camera, sys Were you shoe?
Speaker 5 (47:27):
He sports? A lot of Denver shot at the twist
and from the range to the hunt. They got us
on our way, Your super podcast
Speaker 7 (47:32):
That keeps us saving strange each day,
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