It’s A Living with Jane Espenson and Drew Z. Greenberg

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to Eighties TV Ladies, partof the weirding Way Media network. A
quick note for our listeners. Wesometimes create our shows very close to the
episode drop date, and yet manyother interviews are recorded months in advance.
This episode was created and recorded beforethe Writers Guild strike happened, and I

(00:23):
want to note that sag after hasalso now gone on strike, and both
strikes are very necessary action for theentertainment industry and I believe for the United
States, perhaps even worldwide. Withoutthe labor of the writers and actors from
the nineteen eighties and those currently onstrike now, the shows we cover on
this podcast would not exist. Therewould be nothing to talk about around water

(00:46):
coolers or around our earbuds. Withoutthe past strikes where writers and actors gained
not just vital compensation, but healthcareand pensions, the creative talent behind these
shows and characters we love would neverhave been able to create careers out of
bringing us these moments we hear atEighties TV Ladies stand in support of the

(01:06):
Writers and Actors strike and all thelabor movements and unions who are currently challenging
massive corporations in order to demand respectfulworking conditions as well as equitable compensation for
labor. So cheers to a hotlabor summer, and please check our description
for links where you can support thewriters and actors and everyone affected by the

(01:26):
strike. Baby and So Pretty theCity. I'm Sharon Johnson. Welcome to

(01:47):
Eighties TV Ladies, where we explorefemale driven television shows from the nineteen eighties
and celebrate the people who made them. I'm Susan Lambert HadAM. Thank you
listeners for joining us here at theeight It's a Living is an eighties show
you may have forgotten or never heardof, but it ran for one hundred
and twenty episodes and if you checkit out, it just may be your

(02:10):
new favorite. Undiscovered Jim, It'sa workplace comedy with an interesting history.
It was first a network show fromnineteen eighty to nineteen eighty two, and
then came back as a syndicated showfrom nineteen eighty five to nineteen eighty nine,
and while it didn't launch the careerof actress Angelian, it did make

(02:31):
her a star and turn her intoan eighties sex symbol. The show is
set in an upscale restaurant at thetop of the Bonaventure hotel in Los Angeles
and sent hers on the lives ofthe women who work there. But before
we get to It's a Living,we want to introduce two very special guests
joining us today on the show,renowned TV writers and producers, Jane Espenson

(02:54):
and Drew Greenberg. Jane Espenson grewup in Ames, Iowa watching too much
TV. She went to UC Berkeley, where she studied linguistics and wrote spec
scripts for Star Trek The Next Generation. She was in the Disney Writers Fellowship
Program and worked on sitcoms like Dinosaursand Ellen. Her first staff job on

(03:14):
a drama was on Buffy the VampireSlayer. She is a writer and producer
for so many beloved shows, fromGilmore Girls to Once Upon a Time,
from Battlestar Galactica to Jessica Jones.Drew Greenberg grew up in New Jersey,
Chicago, DC, and San Francisco. After graduating law school, he did
the most obvious thing moved to LAto become a TV writer. He got

(03:37):
a job on Buffy the Vampire Slayeroffice spec script and went on to write
and produce so many great TV showslike Firefly, Smallville, The OC,
Dexter Arrow, and Marvel's Agents ofShield, most of which I have watched.
In terms of all of those shows, I have to admit, not
all of them, but most ofthem you'vetter than I am. Welcome to

(04:00):
the show. Jane and Drew,thank you so much for joining us here
at eighties TV ladies. Thank you. We're very excited to talk with you
because our favorite topic of conversation ingeneral is television. So Jane, I'm
gonna start with Jane, because Iknow you more than Drew. How did
you end up writing awesome TV shows? I grew up watching television in seventies

(04:26):
and eighties, and it looked likea happy, sun, creative place to
be. I always felt that Icould watch an episode of Match and then
imagine an episode of Mash or BarnieMiller or whatever show it was. And
so I read an article like inTV Guide I think or similar about Mash

(04:50):
and one of the writers, awoman writer on that show, saying that
the writers scented specscripts and just lightbulb like, oh my god, that's
well, that's the career I want. Uh, And I went on.
I went to school for for otherthings, but always had in the back
of my mind that I wanted towrite specscripts and get jobs in TV.

(05:13):
Uh and and so when I wassort of in grad school and I realized
that the wheels weren't really taking meforward, that I would try that instead,
and started writing specscripts for Star TrekNext Generation. They brought me into
pitch, I sold some ideas,and then it launched me on this career.

(05:34):
Jane, would you mind explaining forthose in our audience I don't know
where what a spec script is.Well, they don't really need to worry
about it because it's kind of gone. It's a thing that used to be
and that's not really a thing anymore. Which is you used to the way
you would audition to get into TVwriting was you would write an episode of

(05:56):
a show that already existed and usethat your calling card. Now you write
spec pilot, so you are youhave to create a show and write the
pilot episode for it, which whichjust really wasn't a thing when I started
and is a very different task.You don't see any possibility it might swing
back at some point towards now,because there are so many shows now that

(06:20):
you can't There are so few showsthat you would expect any possible reader to
be familiar with even a big hitshow, so that person may not happen
to watch it because there's just toomany, too many options. Also,
everything's arc driven now, which makesit harder to write a sort of sample
standalone episode. You could write astand alone Barnie Miller or even a Star

(06:46):
Trek Next Generation like I did,or there was Ans are Frasiers that that
that I used to get started forSegin Fog. It's harder to do that
with Cameas Rounds and Drew. Whatabout you? What was tell us about
your journey towards television writing. Imentioned a little bit in the in the
Biot, but it sounds like agood story. I mean it is.

(07:09):
It entertains me. I don't knowif it'll entertain anybody else. And very
much like Jane, I also reallyjust I love watching TV when I was
when I was growing up and sortof got lost in that world a lot,
and also had that experience of watchinga show and sort of imagining what
other stories could be. But Inever thought that was a road that a

(07:30):
person you should go down for,you know, for their life or career
or anything like that. Um Iwait to law school and first semester finals.
I needed a study break to keepmyself saying. And I had read
that there was one TV show inthe air that would at lea submit a

(07:51):
spet without having an agent and astar trek. And it's like, just
like Jane did, I said,well, I'll try to ask and because
you know, let's start taking there. So uh. Really ended up happening
was that instead of writing my starTrek becoming the break, start studying the
finals, studying finals, beginning tobreak U in between writing and U.

(08:13):
It was, you know, Ihad a lot of fun. I set
it off, but I didn't thinkanything out of the uh. And then
about nine months later I got tobig back into the veil inviting me to
come down and pitch. Unlike Jean, I never sold them. I never
sold him a pitch blade. Justgetting to have that meeting was exciting.
And I had a couple of meetingsand one of the writers, um on

(08:33):
Deep Stas nine, said well,I'm not gonna buy it. You're showing.
I said, okay, ed hesaid, Blade, you're good at
this. If you want me totalk to you for a little bit about
what you need to know to makethis a career. I'll sit with you
when I talk to you, andhe did. It was Une Answerbaria and
he uh sat with me for foran hour and he just kind of told
me what I needed to know abouthow to make writing a career. And

(08:54):
it was the most wonderful thing anybodyhad to trend at that point. That's
fantastic. It was really nice.I didn't realize you'd had that with Rene
was the one I eventually I pitcheda lot at TNG. They never made
one of those episodes, or Inever got to write one of them.
They bought a premise, but Ieventually got to write A Deep Space nine
and Renee A. Cheveria was theone who rewrote me and was also extremely

(09:20):
kind, kept me in the loop, would call me, what do you
think about this title? Like extremelywelcoming and yeah, we may only both
be here because of Renee A.Cheveria. Wow. Great, I have
a feeling we're not the only ones. I think that. I think that
she has created a whole lot ofthe current TV writing force out there.

(09:41):
He was his own fellowship. Yeah, it was that is so cool that
you both like, I guess StarTrek was one of the one show that
took spec scripts and took pitches specpitches and stuff. So then they had
the Disney Writer's Fellowship, which wasmy next step was to go and do
the fellowship. And can you talka little bit about that, because it
was the early days of the fellowship. It was it just started the third

(10:03):
year of the fellowship and it stillexists ABC Disney. They sort of keep
changing your name, writing, Fellowship, writing, whatever it is. And
it's a great open door. WhenI got in, they were explicitly looking
for people who weren't in LA.It was really diverse and always they were
looking for women, for cultural andethnic diversity, and also for like people

(10:26):
who lived in Louisiana or something andwouldn't otherwise be able to make a try.
Now it's become much more people whowere already in LA already working toward
being working TV writers. It's agreat pro rep still though it's at the
time it was the only one thatpaid you, the Warner Brothers when you
paid them. On my beliefe,I don't know what the current status ins

(10:48):
of that, but it really allowedpeople with our resources to come here and
are doing the things you need todo and make the career happen. That's
fantastic And I love a lot ofthe shows that you worked on. Because
I also knew someone, Tim Doyleand the Fellowship program, and so you

(11:09):
guys were kind of coming up together. I think. Yes, Tim Doyle
was in a Fellowship program from thefirst year of it, so he was
two years ahead. He was inthe He was an also a writer in
Dinosaurs, which was the word theFellowship placed me. So I don't know
if he helped get me into thatroom, but I know he hired me
on Ellen five years later when Idesperately needed a job. Yeah, Tim

(11:33):
Doyle was very very helpful to me. All right. So, Jane,
when I sort of emailed you andsaid, hey, do you want to
come talk to my podcast about eightiestelevision, you were like, can we
talk about it's a living? Whydid that come up? Well instantly,
Drew and I have two very good, very close friends, Tom Leeber and

(11:54):
Christine Boylan, and the four ofus do a lot of texting. And
when the lockdowns first started, somebodyand I don't even remember who it was,
said we should all do something togetherto keep ourselves entertained. Uh,
And somebody said we should do agroup rewatch of It's a Living and I

(12:16):
don't. I cannot sign those emails, Drew, did you find those?
They didn't. The only thing Iremember is that we certainly and talked about
it before, right, like thefour of us. Did they get to
come up as a thing? Yourfather remember? Yeah, So you watched
it at the time, So I'dlove to you to talk about your memory
of watching it at the time,each one of you. I'm about ten

(12:37):
years older than Drew, I think, so we had probably different experiences of
it. So I watched it premieredin nineteen eighty and I was sixteen,
so it was it was very muchlike I got. I got all the
sexy jokes, but it was stilla bit naughty, and it was so

(13:01):
sophisticated. My favorite aunt lives inLa my dad's from La. I.
We would spend our summer vacations inLa and LA to me sort of was
sophisticated. If we would go outto fancy dinners and it felt like a
trip to La. Although the establishingshots that sense of Los Angeles, the

(13:22):
shot of the hotel, the loungeof music that tells you you're in a
class he joined, like it wasalways a place where I genuinely felt at
that place I wanted to go.Other than a lot of other shows,
It really to me at a senseof place. Andrew, what do you
remember? I g's funny because yes, as only a hair gotther than Jane,
then Jane was. I wasn't gettingany of the Santancy jokes at all,

(13:45):
but it was part of and Ishould have put this up before we
started talking. I actually don't rememberwhere Dared Are on the ABC schedule when
it was on ABC, but Iknow that it was part of the aesthetic
that was what I I always feellike a bit of an odd kid because
I would be watching so and Bensaid, you know, like the the

(14:07):
shows a word necessarily aimed at myat my age, but were a little
bit about something else. And Idon't think I was God, there's something
else that they were about. AndI certainly enjoyed that kind of kind of
like feel that there was something biggergoing on than like did you know,
didn't like hide the fact that hehad a party while Jason and Maddie were

(14:31):
away. Um, so like Ithink that it was it sort of gone
into that bucket for me that itwas something that seemed like he was about
something. And also, yes,like Jane, I also sort of just
loved the setting of it, likejust it just seemed very sophisticated. It
seemed like workplace comedy, which appealsto me as well. And then and

(14:54):
at the workplace was one that seemedvery fancy. Um and I I kind
of kind of found myself drawn tothat, which as I do now in
the In their Life, so areyou. I looked up I found the
original review of the Tom Shales inthe Washington Post when it was hadn't yet
premiered and it was part of thenew fall breed of sexy network comedies,

(15:18):
Like it was specifically like this isgonna be a sexy show. Oh and
he called it a female taxi,So it was that worked great description?
Well yeah, yeah, and hecalls wit Thomas productions witless tasteless productions.
Really now, yes, well thisis like before I think he's referring to

(15:41):
like Blossom, Wait Thomas, soapbends and empty nests, Blossom and Golden
Girls. Not all of them are. I'm trying to look at them.
Go which of those would you callwitless and tasteless? I maybe empty nest
and blossom. I don't know that'sand didn't they two were Thomas two?
Like the South of Eastern Bay Like, wasn't sobarrassed? Wasn't y soap?

(16:03):
Is them not witless? I guessyou could tall so tasteless because it specifically
was designed to push the envelope.Yeah, that was the point on it.
And this is what Thomas before,or at least without Paris. But
uh, it's a living did havea female co creator, this Jenna McMahon,

(16:23):
which was a pen name for MaryVirginia Skinner, who was a Carol
Burnett show writer who I didn't knowthat. That's amazing. She also co
created The Facts of Life. Ididn't know that. Why did she have
a pen name? Was it justI don't know her name was Mary Virginia
Skinner? And who worked? It'sJenna McMahon, a whole entirely different name.

(16:45):
I don't know. That is that'sa good, good little top.
I love that she created tax ofLights. I'm really interested in sort of
learning more about her, and wewill it will be a show at some
point. I'd like to look atas a different as the Facts of Life
is from it's living. I actuallyalmost remember us maybe even talking about this,
that there are also similarities we're treatedthe two and you know, like,

(17:07):
certainly you're talking about two shows thatin a culture where it probably will
said done that much, they tookare in what women are facing day to
day in a very realistic way,funny way. I think maybe two different
stages of life. But I thinkthey both at least attempted at first to

(17:29):
try to handle some about it.It's kind of fascinating to hear that there
is that connection, and so I'minterested because again on rewatching it, what
struck you as working not working well? So we talk about the archetypes.
True, this is a show wherethe archetypes. Yes, yeah, it's

(17:51):
like, here are five different women. Wait is it six if you can't
Nancy? Or is it five ifyou can't Nancy? So these are different
women, which is too many,So they drop one right for season two.
They they sort of they let wouldn'tgo away because it did that to
go away, and brought in onenew one. So it was a net
lost one, which is them definitelytrying to correct course. But they did

(18:15):
a terrible job of it because theone they brought in wasn't wasn't working.
But at the time, Ju,do you remember you sent the scene mail
where you said, there's a worldwhere you can map the archetypes here to
the classic Golden Girls, Sex andthe City, Facts of Life, Designing
Women, Living Signaled, Desperate Housewivesand model Cassie. It's Man Hungry,

(18:37):
Blanche, Samantha Blair, Lois Is, grounded POV character, Dorothy Kerry,
Joe jan Is, Smart Alex,Sophia, Miranda, Natalie, etc.
But they've taken the wide eyed innocenceof Rose Charlotte Tutti and split her into
two parts, daffy Dot and naiveVickie. And that we found as we
watched, we all had the samereaction in one of my males, I

(19:00):
said, they're moving Dot and Vickyaround the chessboard like their two ponds taped
together. They very similar characters.And then they gave them b stories together
consistently. They wouldn't even split themup so that it was clear they had
one too many. Yeah, andthey couldn't develop into something else because they
were just being used the same way. Yeah, Exactly, if they'd split

(19:22):
them up, they could have atleast said oh, let's give Dot a
whole bunch of lat things. Let'sgive her crystals and yoga and stuff.
But they just kept putting the twoherkey innocence or at least bubbly people together.
Gotta split them up, guys,dare do right. Dot was sort

(19:44):
of the aspiring actress, right andVicky was the wide eyed in situ cad
from a n He was literally anoveralls end the pilot. She was literally
overalls about it, exactly right,brag lucold overalls wait from yeah, the
kind you wear on a farm.Everyone was wearing stuff that told you who

(20:06):
they were unless they were in uniform, which which mostly mostly they are in
a dazzling array of unify. Bythe end of episode three, you'd see
four different waiting. That was whatstruck me because I watched. You know,
I haven't yet been able to explorethe whole thing. I haven't done
a full rewatch. I'm so impressedthat you did with the group of people

(20:29):
during COVID. Such a genius move. But I was struck by how many
outfits they had, and they startedoff very sexy outfits. They started off
they looked like nightclub girls. Weeven commented on it in the in the
pilot, like you came to workdressing your uniform. Isn't that a well
suggestive rout on the street. Janewas the one, if I recall correctly
in our egails, Jane was moreyou figured out one purpose than different because

(20:53):
we were all saying like, whyare they wearing wood restaurant has four different
uniforms that they all coordinate and whererandom times. Gane, I think,
was one who figured out that that'show on TV you can figure out them
it's a new days and the pinkand barracle ones away seemed to be the

(21:14):
launch uniforms, and the black andwhite ones at the dinner and from sy
you can't immediately know if it's anew day, and you also know if
you're to day or night, eventhough you're interior in a place without windows
that are giving you a lot ofclues. So it really worked for them,
And I think the ones in thepilot are different because it was the
pilot. You can tell there wasa note those are too sexy, We're
going to get letters town them down. Had different ones depending on character too,

(21:38):
So there was one scene in particularit felt like, oh, she's
in THEE one shoulder, she's inthe you know, middrip like it was
just an interesting It's like, oh, are they just doing it too again?
Identify character because there's so many womento follow, or is it like
the actresses were like, no,I'm not wearing that like bridesmaids or something.

(22:02):
Those are the ones we called mixedswim because they're like different all the
different kinds of swimtops you can getum and I suspect they were chosen to
flatter the actresses at and revealed character. And you can never tell if there's
an actress going, I won't wearthat, But these girls were up for
wearing those real skippy ones. Inthe pilot, they seemed they seemed happy

(22:22):
to wear whatever. I thought thecast was really amazing, and of course
particularly a Julian just really pops out. But I thought that was it.
Susan. Susan Sullivan. She shewas my favorite, and I was very
unhappy when I got to season twoand saw that she was calling it was
the first one to go yeah,yeah, So it's Susan Sullivan and very

(22:47):
young fellow who went on to voicework, and Julian and Wendy Shaw and
Gail Edwards and Miriam love her too. Yeah, oh yeah, these are
some These are great. These areall really good performers. But yes,
and Jillian is a gosh darn star. She seems like a secret weapon on

(23:11):
this show where even on the occasionswhen Ryan doesn't necessarily make a lot of
sense or or you know, isn'tyou know, as funny as it could
be, she you can hand herthe line clearly and she would make it
funny somehow. And as a writer, that's always a gift because he never,

(23:33):
you know, like you want to. You always want your words to
be in the hands of somebody justgonna make it better. And she's one
of those actors who does make itbetter. I think, Yeah, I
again, she just really pops.But they were all really, really amazing.
I was very impressed with sort ofeach of them, even if it
felt like maybe they didn't have alot of places to go because and it's

(23:55):
funny. I said the same thing. Rich and I were watching it,
and I was like, there's toomany characters, but they're very well defined.
I'm like, but it's a lota lot of lads in the room.
Although I usually like a lot ofladies in the room. You know,
I was very impressed by that thatit was about them. Its to
the time, two men in thewhole show, And I don't think the
chef has a line in the pilotSonny. It only sings that I can

(24:19):
compile that, or if he haslines, he doesn't have many of us.
They are clearly setting out there areonly women here that are going to
be real people. Yeah, Ikept wondering what Sonny's purpose was. He
just didn't seem to really matter interms of whatever their stories they were telling.
He's an irritant, He's someone toprovoke them, and he's going to

(24:42):
reliably sexually harass at least one ofthem per episode. And then they actually
do a very good job with themand they making sympathetic. He gets a
couple episodes where he's in a spotlightand he manages to generally be horrible again
by the end, but they PaulKrapple plays that character. We adore him.
I think Sonny not a character youcould make likable now, but given

(25:06):
the loris of the time, he'sgot his own charm well. And I
was also surprised about like the musicalityof it. I think that he was.
Also, they do a lot ofmusical numbers. They literally do a
dream sequence and in they're like pullingout the top hats, and you know,
a lot of crazy performances by everybody. And I thought that they use

(25:27):
music in a really interesting way.I mean, he is singing in every
show right practically, yes, andpretending to play the piano. He doesn't
play the piano. They've got aguy hitting under the piano. Oh my
god, that's hilarious. And alsoit felt like every episode somebody slams his
fingers with the pig. They useit every time, every every episode.

(25:52):
But it never occurred to me thathe was singing how or that he was
playing the piano. I just assumedthat he was faking it the whole time.
I don't know it just to makesense, I guess, or maybe
because I just wanted him gone.So I was just gonna say. The
original reviews slammed him, saying likethis is just Bill Murray's lounge sing Our
character comes out in an Alive whichwas at the same town. I think

(26:14):
he's a lovely actor, and Iyou know, I like him as an
actor. I just don't think thecharacter had anything to do, But at
the same time you're like, oh, that's fine, he's not the point.
I don't just thinking of this aswe're talking about now, but I
think he's a good example of whatyou were willing to put up with then
and made funny, you know,And now I think obviously some of us

(26:36):
would try very hard to to rethinkthe way that character is presented. And
even evedn't you know to the extentthat he was he did awful things in
the in the original show, Likedo you think it's also interesting that he
wasn't the point of the other showand as they really did keep the focus
on the women, and I don'tknow how couple in that was the like

(27:00):
he was right, He served verylike he was. He was irritating,
and they never easuerly, as Jeansaid, they human understand as the show,
but then I always brought him backto being the guy that he was,
and they never lost sight of theback that, yeah, he is.
He's a dude in this world woman, and he's not like the leader,
he's not the daddy figure. He'sthe one that they outsmart and at

(27:26):
to get around. And there's there'ssomething that that they think is interesting from
a sociological point of heal. Yea, Sonny never wins, even when if
the best thing that Sonny can dois grudgingly earn in brief moment of respect
before losing it back to having hisfinger slammed in the pan. Well,
and I love that the boss wasa woman. Yeah, I was really

(27:49):
impressed by that. It could havebeen the chef yelling at them, it
could have been a male matre dkind of figure in the pilot. I
was excited about where that character couldgo, but just the fact that it's
women working for a woman was neatWell, wasn't a time where they in
most shows that they would take acharacter who's an antagonist, which is essentially

(28:12):
what her purpose was, and theymight give them some moments of humanity.
But everybody sort of stayed in theirbox to a large extent, because I
think that's what the audience expected,especially with episodic shows as opposed to shows
that these days have more of anarc to them. But nevertheless, I'm
a big fan of hers and Iwas thrilled to see her in this.

(28:33):
I don't think I watched it whenit aired originally. I think I probably
was watching magnum p I at leastfirst season, because that's what it was
on against at home in the daysbefore you know, VCRs and such you
had to pick. Sorry, youknow, it struggled along and went quickly
to syndication, but it did wellin syndication, so in the reruns,

(28:53):
that's where it came back, right, just like if twenty seven episodes they
had made and then and did sowell that then they wanted to produce more
episodes in firstyndication directly, which inand of itself was unusual at that time,
was it not. I don't havethe specifics on it, but I
think you're right. I think thatthat was to hold more the exceptions that

(29:15):
will. But I also feel likeI'm getting I'm doing this. I think
a research in front of me.I feel like it's a living in syndication
was probably just at the forefront ofthat wave of first rounds indication that happened
in the late eighties. Yeah,and right, And I think that was
and that was both like action dramasand also multicam hours. I think that,

(29:37):
um, this is this is partof that wave or the birthfriend of
it. It's about the stake,what's the Robot Girls show, right,
wonder Yeah, slow wondering, Yes, but that that kind of show started
coming along, and yeah, firstround syndication and this one had jumped,
but then fit in with those showsthat were made to be syndicated. I

(30:00):
know there are some other shows Websterwent to syndicate it at the end.
I believe, oh, nine tofive, the TV show and Charles in
Charge Charles and Shows and ended uptheir Daywatch was it was a good example
of one that started on NBC andended up becoming a huge international get in
syndication instead. And I believe makinga Living is the title that they put

(30:22):
on it in syndication, because you'lloften see this show listed as making a
living. Our rewatch got to thatfantasy musical episode and we were all like,
that was one of the best episodesever, can't wait to keep watching.
And then we never watched another episode. So I don't think we watched
the past episode ten, but wehad watched a lot to that point.

(30:45):
I feel like we we we pattedourselves on the back, Rodge, having
achieved that you did quite a bit. I was gonna say, well,
what other takeaways did you like?I'm just curious what else the group saw
in that show. As you werewatching it, you see a lot of
like house, things have changed andnow things have stayed the same. There
were some jokes in there where Iwas like, oh, I've written that

(31:07):
same joke and used it last week. So there were some definitely where you're
like, oh, things haven't changedmuch, and then there are other things
where you're like, oh, gosh, bringing an episode back to status quo
every week, boy, that feelsold fashioned. Now. I don't know,
Drew, what what it'll take away. You know, obviously we talked
about sort of Angeliette and Marian Mercerand a sort of appreciating them. It

(31:33):
is a big part of what wetalked about one at least I remember.
Other than that. Again, ifyou look at it in the context of
when this was Eric, when episodicsitcoms were very much one thing, this
was a show that wasn't afraid tohave this sort of like written of tartness

(31:55):
weaving through even among the heightened youknow, you're heightened reality of the multi
camera world. Um, it stillallowed these in movements and grounded realness and
disappointments and even sadness to creep ineven at the end of an episode,
you know, Sunny finding out thatthe kid isn't really his kid, and
Jan almost giving back together with herex husband and nots and like it just

(32:22):
I don't expect that from a typicalhalf hour Briman nineteen eighties. And it's
one of things that surprises me alittle bit about twa shows his review that
you brought up, Jane, Like, I suppose that he's working out the
pilot only, which is its ownbank. But to me, the show
had a level of groundedness that surprisedme. You're gonna midst all the sort

(32:46):
of noise and I perfectly of amulti camcercom. I think that was something
here I remember striking me a littlebit. Yeah, it certainly could.
There are episodes of are Diad episodes. You could see it changing season to
season as writing staff changed and asthey we should talk about sort of the
misfire that we sort of felt theseason two was where they lost their way

(33:08):
and then they found their way backin season three. So what do you
think missfired in season two? Wow, they got rid of Vicky and Lois
and they brought in Maggie, whichwas Louie's Lasser and Louise Lasser has a
very specific vibe which is very lowenergy. That's sort of where her comedy

(33:32):
comes from, and is low energy. What you want, I'm near your
hard drive and work in girls sitcom. No, the answers no. You
could tell that they were afraid.The show was two sex. So,
oh, these girls all look likeprostitutes. Well, let's show them with

(33:52):
wholes and all of the time.Let's bringing an older woman who's a widow
recertainly rid out her husband's only jettingyear, so we'll have a little funny
grief. Oh, with her alot. She can nurture the girls,
and she can be dumb as aplank. And it just was not the

(34:12):
show that you wanted to see thesebright young things in a show that felt
like show business. The show theopening theme was sung like a big Broadway
number. The opening shot of thecredits is then walking practically in a kick
line down the street. The soloreferences show biz. The backs daye area

(34:34):
of the restaurant is where we seethem and getting ready to go out and
perform. When they're waiting, itfeels like a show about young chorus girls.
And then you bring in this sortof grieving momb take care and it
just it's not the show. Andalso again, if people would just follow
the forty of them, it's veryeasy, right, just follow the sex

(34:59):
and the City girls stacks of likeliving single designing with formula, It's very
easy, everybody. And what theydid was in okay. So they lost
Vicky, who was conflicting with tookup space that Dot needed. Great,
but then they gave Maggie both thesort of like wise mom role and also
the, as Jane said, dumbas a plank role. So like,

(35:21):
well, now we're back to mixingour like and he didn't. I'm fine
mixing. I mean, I kid, you know about the formula thing.
Fine, mix up the formula,but don't give your maternal character, he
screaming. Also, don't make herthe butt of your dumb jokes like that
is very hard. Allow. Yeah, you'd sort of see like they were
trying something u and good and goodfor them for sort of trying it,

(35:45):
but it was I think, Iguess and practice not super successful in that
way. Yeah, you could seeof them was trying to fit her into
this show and she's just not theshow. Like in the first season,
it was so impressive how punchy itwas right, how funny it was and

(36:06):
perky it was. But also likethe episode where they have the sleepover and
then Beef comes in and they sortof that was brilliant and had a lot
to say about what it was tobe women. They were like, we're
gonna we can do this, AndI thought that was just very very clever,
and it felt aware. It feltthe show felt aware that they were

(36:28):
a bunch of women and they werealso being funny. It had the moment,
It did have that Golden Girls element. Now that once you mentioned it
and I sort of won't stop thinkingabout it. Yeah, and I think
I'm doing this sea in a littlebit from memory, but if I'm not
mistaken, some of that punch heneeded in season two, to my sight,
hear it's very clear that somebody wassomebody was trying to pull the show.

(36:52):
Like you know, so much ofthe time you get you get direction
from yeah, we're executives, we'restudio executives, were whoever you know who
who end up giving you the noteAnd so I'm trying to show it in
the direction and it doesn't It doesn'talways work. I think one of the
things that made the show really pop, and I think it is one of
the reasons why some of us itstands out as like a cult classic is

(37:15):
because it had that sort of likeit's said something about what it was like
to be five or six working women, you know, in the world,
and I feel like back out alittle bit dampened, and you could tell
that it wasn't just trying to fither into it that made it feel less

(37:36):
sexy. You could tell that makingit less sexy was definitely the mandate because
they took away Cassie's edge and you'vegot gold, You've got you've got may
West, and you're and you're tryingto make her I don't know what what
what's the non sexy May West?There's not. Yes, she does become
more wholesome, I think in theshow. Yeah, in that second season,

(37:59):
And that's at the point, right, oh my gosh. All right,
we're gonna take a little break andthen come back and kind of finished
talking about that and maybe talk aboutsome of the other shows you guys have
worked on and iconic female characters.We'll be back after the break. We
actually kept talking during the ad break. So here's a little stipid of that

(38:20):
conversation that I think you will enjoy. So, how are you, Jane?
I'm really good? How are you? How is Rich? You guys
doing good? This is my sisterAnne, who's Yeah, I'm thrilled to
be here. I'm huge fans ofboth Through and Jane. So am Sharon
now of ADCV Ladies with my favoritepodcast. Oh, thank you so much.

(38:45):
So I'm thrilled to hear you guystalk about one of my favorite sitcoms.
It's a living well. I knowthat I have heard which talk about
both of you, sisters, becauseit seems to me like when you're in
Atlanta, you take him to aplace called Piggy Barbecue. We do barbecue.
There's a little song about Piggy Barbecuewhich basically goes Piggy Barbecue, Piggy

(39:07):
Barbecue, pe barbecue, and soyou sing it and you eat it.
It's delicious. Yeah. Rich toldthis whole story about how he got all
excited to go to Piggy Barbecue.It's actually in Spartanburg, South Carolina,
but it's worth the side trip ofan hour and a half to go get
it. It's perfect. Well,he said, but then you pull up
at the place and he realizes,after all that set up, the whole

(39:29):
song and everything, the place isn'teven called Piggy Barbecue. No, it's
called Carolina Barbecue. It does havea little piguet have a little pi.
Oh my gosh, that's great.I'm that story. I feel like I
know you ladies. You know well, I know you all from your writing,

(39:51):
your wonderful writing that I love somuch, so many great television shows
and Jess, this it's a livingmakes me so nostalgic. Yeah, what
a Jillian should have had the careerthat I don't know somebody else should have
had. What what is she doingnow? She was very ill, she

(40:12):
had that breast cancer thing, andyou can and you can see it in
starting in season three or four.Um, she looks on well. And
I think that's probably maybe why westopped watching when we did, is it
started feeling a little sad. Thinkthat probably took her off track a bit.
But she's currently a motivational speaker andgoes and does speaking events a lot,

(40:36):
so so we hope to get heron the show. Yes, maybe
we'll have to get miss Jillian onA question for you, just you mentioned
something that I'm not sure maybe ourlisteners understand. It was also very interesting
getting the show back to baseline.Is that what you said, Yeah,

(40:58):
at the end of the the theepisode, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The TV used to be episodic,and that you didn't you'd come back next
week and all the learned lessons wouldbe forgotten. Everyone would be the way
the Simpsons. Everyone's always the sameage and things just returned to where they

(41:19):
were, and there's not a tonof arking because there wasn't there wasn't streaming,
there wasn't DVRs or the VCRs,So people missed a week, they
had to still come back and beable to watch. I suppose maybe,
well that makes sense, and theydidn't want them to come back and feel
that they'd missed something that they weren'tever going to be able to see,

(41:39):
So it would make sense that thatwould be the reason they would do that.
Also, you would rerun the episodesall summer long, so and they
always told us, right these episodesso they could air in any order.
So if there were a network preemptionbecause the football game went long or something
in an episode dropping, you've hadto be able to follow. And now

(42:00):
will actually take an ad break.Welcome back. We're still here talking with
Jane Espenson and Drew Greenberg about It'sa Living and we're also going to hopefully
get a chance to talk to thema little bit about things that they've worked
on. So welcome back everyone.All right. We were talking about female

(42:22):
characters and the iconic female characters.As a writer, as a creator of
shows, what are the ingredients whenyou're building those characters, Particularly for building
iconic women. I have always triedto write characters who could be women or
not that instead of trying to thinkof them as a female character, just

(42:45):
think of them as a person,because I think you've fall into a lot
of subconscious traps. Even as awolf, writing women, you'll subconsciously make
them slightly less active. Unless youstart thinking, oh, what if a
man played this part, you suddenlysee Oh my god, I see the
trap I fell into. So that'sa little trick I do is try to

(43:06):
recast the roles in your head,switch them around gender wise, and make
sure everybody still feels like a humanbeing. I think that's the smartest thing.
I remember Jane talking about that whenwe first met on Buffy and I
remember I said, yes, Ido, like I can, I can
hang with her. Once I'd writtenmy spec episodes that got me on on
Buffy, I had written a pilotas well. When I remember very specifically

(43:30):
writing a teenage there was one ofthe leads the restaurants, the teenage girl.
I remember thinking when I wrote it, I mean, yes, the
fact that she's a girl is importantto her experience. But I wanted to
do whatever I could since I'm nota teenage girl, I'm wanted to try
to write her from as objective apoint of years I could, very similar
to Jake was saying, and Iwould try to just make sure that if

(43:52):
she became a teenage boy that thesame problems would would apply. It's funny,
I'm as I search eloping shows nowagain I'm not it's I even feel
funny talking to all of you aboutall this stuff, as I'm not a
TV lady um myself. But youknow, I do my best just to

(44:13):
make sure that any time that I'vegot a woman that i'm writing, I
want to make sure that she isflawed and also you know, right like,
she's not she's not unnecessarily evil,and she's not an angel but then
she's got to real things that shehas to work through so that she gets
her own story, her own agency, that she has her own stuff that

(44:36):
she can deal with and make herjust as much of a force as any
character on the show. And sometimesthat means what's the you know, what's
the story you could tell with herthat you couldn't tell with characters. And
sometimes that's kind of fun too,but but it's it's always important to make
sure that she gets to stand onher own two feet um and have her
own story as much as as Imean Kara on the show and flawed,

(45:01):
he said, flawed. That's soimportant. I think so often people think
they're doing you a favor by makingthe woman smart and no not like like,
oh, she's the grown up inthe realm, which just means she's
the one going like, hey,everybody stop having fun. And it's like,
like, this is not helping us. Let her beef flood. I

(45:22):
love drunken bad leader Sarcy. Like, usually in the efforts to make sure
women are depicted as good leaders,they're always depicted as flawless leaders. That
was something I loved on Battlestar wasthat that President rosalind rigged that election.
It's like, just like a man, you're gonna have good days and bad
days, days where you're on theright and wrong side of the long balance

(45:44):
sheet. I love that if youlook at like recent homes, and a
really good example is that sort ofpeak of difficult men, the shows that
you know, we're like sopranos andbad men, and then Breaking Bad where
the women so often had to takeon the role of of a gatekeeper,

(46:05):
you know, and and we're thereand Breaking Back as an amazing show when
my favorite shows of all time anamazing portrayal of Skyler who got eaten up
by the fans because they felt thatshe was standing in the way up there
hero who really wasn't the hero atall right of worlds because she was a
good, a good person. SoI thought it was genius when they did

(46:29):
better Call Saul that that Kim Lexlercould have been the same thing. But
it's that they gave her her ownpast, her own slaws, and she
fell into the same traps and yethad a different take, a different point
of view on it than Jimmy did. And I feel like that's a that's
a good example of Okay, youtry it this way. Oh she had

(46:50):
what happened here with the audiences stray? And you know, I I atinued,
that's exciting stuff. When when whenwe get to be the lead three
nential and complicated and how reasons fordoing what they do? That's the way
it should be great. You know. I was thinking about just the other
day, and I want to getyou guys's temperature on it. I was
thinking about that episode of The WestWing that I think is called These Women,

(47:15):
and at the time I loved it, and I look back now and
think, wait, with that incrediblypatronizing where it was like this defining shot
of the episode is the men lookingat the female characters and go on,
man their aces, And now Ijust feel like, like that seemed good
at the time, but boy,I'm not sure that war Well, am
I remembering that right? You areremembering correctly. I am a huge West

(47:37):
Wing fan, and I have theexact same reaction to that episode now as
well. It just yeah, goodintention, I guess, but oh good
not great execution whatever he was goingfor. Good the things things change in
the world and you look back andyou go, oh, no, look

(48:00):
what happened? I feel like wepeople say we played the game sometimes say
in a rider show where you goaround the table when you say, what's
the thing you could give a Tedtalk on? And the only thing I
have is is the West Wing.So I'm obsessed with it. And also
I have the same experience to sharingthat you have, where you look back

(48:20):
now with the faces Yeah, Ilove it too, the type well say
that, yeah, so yeah,that's yeah. There's a lot of that
in eighties television. Oh absolutely,stuff that at the time you were like,
oh wow, I'm glad someone finallysaid it. Can you look back
down and oh wait, what wasI rooted for? I watched you on
the right side of this issue.Yeah, And I think that a young

(48:45):
person now watching It's a Living wouldprobably have a very different reaction because it
doesn't have the nostalgia for them thanit does for us. We look at
Sonny pinching the girls butts or whateverhe's doing, and we go, oh,
that's Sonny, because we remember that'show we reacted then, and if
we watched it for the first timenow, I think we'd be slapping poor

(49:07):
Paul Prepple's face. It's also thatwe bring the context of the time.
We remember what the times were life, and for that moment, yeah,
it was pretty revolutionary, and yeahit was it was a great step forward,
but we've taken other steps forward since, so yeah, that step is
a little bit further back from wherewe are now. And I'm like,

(49:29):
I try to be, lack ofa better word forgiving about those kinds of
things, because it was great forits time, but yeah, it's not
necessarily as great for now. There'sa great essay written by Molly Ringwald when
she rewatched her movies with her daughters. I don't know if you've read it,

(49:50):
and she's like, I it mademe see the movies I made in
such a different light. And soit's a really amazing essay because she talks
a lot about John Hughes and howI'm poor and that relationship was, and
how much those movies spoke in alanguage that no one was really speaking for
young people, and yet now lookingback at it, recognizing just how horrific

(50:15):
so many things were that were inthose and considered really funny. And so
it's a really really fascinating article.I recommend it. Brandon Mine just did
a rewatch of crocodile Dundee, andhe was like, remember how funny it
was. No, it's terrible antitrans like really like he commits essentially do

(50:37):
sexual assaults in the course of themovie. It's apparently just's awful. Now
you take your eyes off something fora second, it was bad. It's
like an avocado avocado all right.Well, I want to get us back
to talking about how you guys metand the show that I love also so

(51:01):
dearly. I think it probably holdsup. Well, I haven't rewatched it
recently, but I'm sure it doesmust with Dust, can we talk a
little bit. I'm a peach Buffyfan, and so can we talk about
Buffy the Vampire Slayer and how youguys met and the female characters on that
show. Sure, I was atBuffy before Drew was. And I remember

(51:22):
Drew's first day. I was sittingin that fuzzy green chair in Doug's office
and Drew came in and joined usand sat like on the floor next to
where I was sitting in the chair, and I was like, Oh,
it's the new guy. I don'tknow. I'm having fun with Doug.
And then Drew said like two sentencesand I was like, oh, this
guy's in the act. He's oneof us. I'm so happy he's here.

(51:45):
I wonder what I said, whatwhat ridiculous less came out of my
mouth? You said something I don'tremember what the setup was being. You
said something like, well, I'vebeen called worse, and I was like,
ah, he's funny and stuffed apprecating, and I was just I was
charmed. I will say I hada very similar experience that that I team

(52:07):
in right away. Jane was theperson who I said, yes, I
do like I can, I canhang with her and uh, I'll be
I'll be okay. You just youknow, you want to surround yourself people
who are smarter than you, funnierthan you, and that's that's Jane for
me. So I really I'm ina very first day and you know,

(52:27):
setting into an especially it was myfirst staff job, and it's it was
my favorite show and it's a groupof writers who have been together, you
know, for her a little while. At that point, what season did
you come in? One and six? And so it was a yeah right
there. So Jane was one ofthe first people who made me to welcome
uh and Hakamata was was bonding overpie, probably, but it was that

(52:51):
was a big was a semitic part. You gave me a great joke set
up there, and I didn't getin fast enough. You said I was
funnier than you and smarter than you, and it would have done a great
thing if I'd said, oh,I'm not funnier than you. I can
go again, you back. That'sone I like that you thought of it

(53:19):
later. I'm not yea. That'swhy I'm good at This is the thing
about writing. This is why everyoneshould do writing instead of talking, because
talking the moment slips by and youdon't say it quite right. But I've
about writing. You can always goback and have the great idea right in
the right time. Right. Yeah, that's brilliant. No one is the
wiser exactly the time. Yeah,exactly. They think you're They think you're

(53:45):
smarter and funnier. What Jane wereyou on the show from the beginning?
I joined in season three. Youwrote a lot of episodes, Emily,
both stay still till the end.We both went there all the way through
seven. Yeah. What were yourfavorite characters to write for? Jonathan?
I love a tertiary character, Jonathanand Andrew on Yes, Spike. The

(54:09):
hard ones to write are the onescloser to the metal. Buffy's the artist
to write. Angel was hard towrite, although he was already moving off
to the show by the time Iwas there. Would you like to write,
Drew? I? You know,I always say like, I can
never choose, but I always hada good time writing on there, Like
Lake Jane, I always had agood time writing on the especially had a

(54:30):
good time writing UM like un characteristiclyangry Angya. That was somebody bad I
know spoke to me for whatever reason. H and I like that. I
liked um. I liked writing meAndrew a lot. I was lucky that
he came in when I came inon Link is so funny. He's one

(54:52):
of those one like you were youwere saying about about Angelian The line doesn't
have to be funny. He'll makeit fun make a classic like that's something
like you can't handle anything alternatives toa comedy classic. Yeah, yep,
that's what I meant the whole time. Yeah, I didn't write in Storyteller.
I didn't write vampires. So Ijust wrote vampires. And he said

(55:15):
he made it into whatever it ishe made into, and it just made
comedy out of nothing, very verygood. That's amazing. Why do you
think that that show and that characterhit so big and so hard at the
time. I'm always I'm curious lookingback. She was a red rule with
an authenticity like she was nobody everquestioned her ability to be the leader.

(55:40):
I think that was pretty Neil duringyou go, I gotta think more you
I see I was listening to you. That's what I'm saying. I think
that's right. I think there's alsoand I'm not saying anything new, but
I think there's also an element inthere of the character who is who is
by outsiders, underestimated, the personwho's seen as an underdog, right,

(56:02):
And I think we all kind ofrelate to that in so, I mean,
I think we don't all have.I'm very much taken on the approach,
especially in the last two years.It's not my job to make everybody
in the audience relates to everything aboutevery character. Specifically, when I write
a gay characters, I don't needstraight people to necessarily say, oh,
yes, that's just like in mylife. No, you have plenty of

(56:24):
straight characters that you can get itright, like this is a gay character
for gay audiences get at the sametime, if there's something about a character
that does speak to things that weall go through, great and that's if
you can find someone in it,and that's great. And I feel like
Buff he didn't have to speak tomen as well as women. But I
think that Buffy had this sort oflike universal quality to her and that she

(56:45):
was undervalued by the outside world,that she was considered an under dog and
that people expected less of her,and she rose to the challenge every single
time. Yes, I think that'shuge. And at the time we would
get sometimes there'd be like this basketof fan letters that you could look through,
and so a lot of teenage girlssaying I only got to high school

(57:08):
because of Buffy. And then Ifeel like a couple years after Buffy ended,
all the reactions you would see onlinewere gay mend saying I only got
through high school because of Buffy.And I bet now, I bet there's
a lot of trans people getting toohigh school because of Buffy. And it's
like whatever group is feeling undervalued andunseen at the time finds Buffy. Right.

(57:30):
It was such an incredible metaphor.I just I remember from first season
there was a. This so struckme. It was like the perfect scene
where she's got to go out andstake some vampires because you know, the
world's gonna end, and her momis like, noe, you're grounded and

(57:50):
you're staying in and she's like,Mommy, you don't understand, and she's
like it's not like her dad thatyou're going to stay in, and you're
like it was the perfect metaphor scenefor or how you feel in high school
that everything is life and death andeverybody's telling you it's not, or they
not paying attention to you, orthey're ignoring you. And that was like
kind of the moment I sort offell for the show and I was like,

(58:15):
oh, I'm in I'm in certainhere now. Yeah. I think
that scene was the one where there'sa line something like Carlin saying have you
ever tried just not slang vampires?Where you're like, oh, this is
the closest we ever got to sayingthere was a game out of poor here.
Yeah, yeah, that's what tome. Again, I was on
the show yet, I was watchingit at MOLL. I was a big
fan, and I saw that becauseyou know, like, oh I am

(58:38):
seeing I am like people know whatthis is like as a plenty as it
was too, you know, likeit's hilarious say that you're also like bo
Yeah I did that. Yeah,all right, Well now you guys have
worked on shows together since boffing?What shows have you worked done together?
What have we ten to? Davis? Any enough to it about you going

(59:00):
to come spend a summer working onCafrico when she was there. I had
had a break the show that Iwas on, and so I got to
go hang out in a room withJane, a writer show with Jane for
first summer she was released on Man. We both worked on Where I Was
thirteen, but at different times,That's right, did that separately? Yes,
yeah, I wish you get bitout of the same time. I

(59:21):
felt like them. Maybe some othershow where we did I guess not some
other show that we both worked onat different wait the OC No, different
times, but yes, different times. We both worked on the at different
times. Yes, I was alwaysI was also just about to say,
and Gillow Girls and I remember diverRose Gilow Girls only in your head.
Yeah, just a band thick wedeveloped. We couldvelop one show together that

(59:46):
didn't that didn't go anywhere. That'sright. That's right so far. Who
knows what we'll do in the future, that's right. Gee is one of
those people also that I feel likeI can go to when a guy I
think I just did this last week, when I've got like something and I'm
like help, I just email thepages to Jane and she can take a

(01:00:06):
look at over the end, soyou know, that's not that's that's a
different kind of brain together. That'ssuch a great thing to talk about for
I mean again, I don't knowif anybody listening is wants to be a
writer, but how often incredibly successfulwriters help each other, like even when

(01:00:28):
they're developing something on their own,or you know, it's such a lesson
to keep using your friends and reallysmart people in your life to help you
all the time. That's right.TV is really collaborative. But I believe
feature writers do this too. Thatit's just you're cooking for your own taste
buds, but your taste buds getexhausted and you need a second opinion.

(01:00:49):
Does this still taste good? OrI can't tell if there's too much salt
anymore? I always find it's AndI talked about this a lot which is
where I talk to people who arehave questions about this. But there's this
one common misconception that, like youknow, success is a high and there
are only so many slices to goaround, and it's definitely not true none,

(01:01:09):
I mean not really true. Andit's better to have people around you
who know what they're doing, cooland cool, who have done this before,
who use opinions you trust, becausethen you have somebody you can go
to when you need help. Youneed either for them when they need help,

(01:01:30):
and you can go to them whenyou need help. And it's so
much better than to isolate yourself,especially in TV which is collaborated. It's
right as you gotta have to goaround you that these opinions you trust.
I'm very fortunate that I have Jane, I have my brother as a TV
writer as well works he's a comedywriter, and so I have people whose

(01:01:52):
opinions matter to me and my trustwho have not guns it could me yet
because you're funny and self deprecating,only something and kind. Well, this
has been amazing, yay Ken,thank you both enough for we're agreeing to

(01:02:13):
do this and talking to us aboutit's a living and everything else TV.
It's been great, and thank youfor sharing all your stories with us.
I'm so thrilled to meet you,Drew, and any friend of Jane's who
is now a friend of mine orI want them to be. But I
am always happy to see you Jane, even to resoom when. By the

(01:02:34):
way, thank you for letting mebe a part of this also in a
delay for me as well. Iam just so excited that you guys watched
eighties TV, Eighties Ladies TV duringthe pandemic. That's how this podcast started.
So awesome. Thank you guys somuch. Thank you. Our audiocraphy

(01:02:54):
for today includes a book A Girlin the Show Three Generations of Comedy,
Culture and Feminism by Anna Fields.I also want to shout out the Molly
Ringwald New Yorker essay that I mentioned. It's from twenty eighteen called what About
the Breakfast Club? Revisiting the moviesof My youth and the Age of Me

(01:03:15):
two. It's really interesting. Youshould check it out. Follow Drew Greenberg
and Jane Espenson on Twitter. Drew'sat twitter dot com, slash Drew Zachary
Zac a r Y. Jane Espensoncan be found at Twitter dot com slash
Jane Espenson, and you can watchIt's a Living on YouTube. For more

(01:03:37):
information on the writers and actors strike, please check our description for links on
info and how you can help.The terms the WGA and SAG after are
asking for are not unreasonable, andthe fight to win them is existential to
the future. Thank you all forlistening. We love hearing from you,

(01:03:58):
so send us your thoughts or questionsat our website eightiestv Ladies dot com.
That's eight zero stv ladies dot com. And if you want to help support
the making of this podcast, pleasego to Patreon dot com slash eighties TV
Ladies. You can support us bybecoming a patron and their special content exclusive

(01:04:19):
for subscribers. Stay tuned for moreepisodes in our It's a Living series.
We'll be talking about the creators,showrunners, and Breakout Star and Julia.
In fact, our very next episodeis a super fun interview with the ever
charming Paul kruppel Yep, who playedthe lounge singer pianist sunny Man for all

(01:04:40):
seasons of It's a Living. Heis also a Tony Award winner and still
performing, most recently on the tourfor Into the Woods. Tune in next
time to hear all about it.We hope eighties TV ladies ring from joy
and laughter and lots of fabulous newand old shows to watch, all of
which we'll lead us forward toward beingamazing ladies of the twenty first century.

(01:05:03):
Thanks for listening. Babies play theCity. I'm so pretty input into the
city. Dread God, baby Ladies,

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}It’s A Living with Jane Espenson and Drew Z. Greenberg

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

All Episodes

It’s A Living with Jane Espenson and Drew Z. Greenberg

Stuff You Should Know