Stan Zimmerman: From Golden Girls to Gilmore Girls - A Writer's Journey Through 80s TV - 80s TV Ladies

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Weirdy Way Media.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
And so Pretty thro the Cityman World.

Speaker 3 (00:25):
Welcome to the Eighties TV Ladies, where we celebrate female
driven television of the nineteen eighties, and thank you for
being a friend. I'm Saylor Franklin filling in for Melissa Roth.
Here are your hosts, Susan Lambert Adam and Sharon Johnson.

Speaker 4 (00:38):
Hello, I'm Susan and I'm Sharon, and thank you Sailor.
Today we welcome back friend of the Pod and writer
for television, movies, plays and now books with his The
Girls from Golden to Gilmore.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Mister Stan Zimmerman. Stan Zimmerman is a prolific writer, director, producer,
and actor. He is perhaps best known for his work
with writing partner James Berg on the classic television female
driven comedies like Roseanne, Gilmore Girls, and of course, The
Golden Girls. Stan also co wrote the movies A Very

(01:12):
Brady Sequel and last year's lifetime hit Ladies of the Eighties,
A Divas Christmas.

Speaker 4 (01:18):
If you want to hear our first interview with Stan
talking about A Divas Christmas and his break into Hollywood,
you can check out season two, episode twenty of our show,
From Golden Girls to a Divas Christmas with Stan Zimmerman.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Welcome back to eighties TV ladies. Stan, thank you for
having me back. We're so excited.

Speaker 5 (01:37):
I was hounding you, please have me back, banging on
your door, driving around your neighborhood, and now actually here
in person. It's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
We had to get you to stop somehow.

Speaker 5 (01:46):
Yes, as they fly on my way to Palm Springs.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yes, we're super excited to talk about your book. It's
really wonderful. I got a chance to read it. I
bought a copy and I can't find like I bought
it and read it, and then I couldn't find it
because I want I wanted you to sign it when
you're here, so I'm going to have to get you back,
and I could you just sign it?

Speaker 5 (02:05):
Okay? I loved it, but it.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Was like, as you see, we have a lot of
books and just a few, and then we have more house. Okay,
but yours is here somewhere. I'm looking for the color
I know, well I did.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
I had fully intended to, and I will buy it
as well because I have to order it from Barnes
and Noble.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
They don't have it in store anymore.

Speaker 4 (02:25):
And just a lot's been going on the last couple
of weeks for me, so I didn't get to it,
but I.

Speaker 5 (02:30):
Will give you a hall path.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Oh, thank you very much because because yeah, I can't wait.

Speaker 5 (02:35):
It is a book like you thought it would be.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
You know, it's more personal. It's more personal. I was
that I would.

Speaker 5 (02:42):
Just be like spilling tea about all the shows that
I work.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, but it's it's very much about the journey of
a TV writer.

Speaker 5 (02:50):
Right like, and so that I'm down, being knocked down
multiple times, yes, And that's what people have commented, like,
how do you keep getting back up? So it did
become almost a spiritual book, but how do you reinvent yourself?
How do you keep going? Where do you find the strength? Luckily,
to my writing partner, we pick each other up when
each other's down. Very rarely have we both been down

(03:13):
at the same time. There was a moment and it's
in the book when we pulled over on pch and
we're hoping like a rock slide would come down and
just like, you know, knock us out. It was just
like so many times being battered and so close and
then not getting there. There's resilience in fighting, and I

(03:33):
think that was important to tell that part of the story.
And I think it's also personal because I started the
book by going through my journals, which I had kept
since my NU days. We had a dance teacher. I
don't know why she asked us to start keeping journals,
because I never would have done it on my own.
And luckily I was writing in my journals during every

(03:57):
single TV show, during Golden Girls, Roseam and Gilmore Girls
and Pilots and Reader Rocks. So what I did was
I was I knew that the title of the book
would be The Girls from Golden to Gilmore, and I thought,
I can't write a book and I've never done that.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
What made you I want to write it? People asked.

Speaker 5 (04:16):
They would always ask me the question like how could
you write for women? You're this guy, and I'm like,
all right, let me just explain it in the book.
And so, not knowing how to write a book, I
kind of outlined but thought I would go chronologically. But
I started going through it. I said, the easiest first
step is go through all the journals and pull all
your quotes of all the women that you've worked with.

(04:39):
But then I had to retype them into the computer.
So as I'm typing them, I'm reliving it. I'm going
oh wow, oh wow, and like, oh you're knock down again,
but you got to come back up and you keep
doing and doing it. And then that kind of gave
me the idea of what if I put those in
the book and then comments on them as I'm the

(05:01):
human being I am today, and it's very different. You know,
you're very vulnerable and I was very young when we
started out. What was going through my head? And and
how has it changed with my thoughts and different people,
Like my attitude towards the Betty White was very different
back then than it is now. And and her stamp
is coming out. Actually that's very exciting. Yeah, did you

(05:24):
buy it? He didn't buy that either, doesn't buy books,
doesn't buy stamps.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
We're saving on that.

Speaker 5 (05:30):
Okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
But I'm curious about the journal What was it that
kept you doing doing doing journaling?

Speaker 5 (05:43):
It was just a good place to release thoughts. You know,
they swirled a lot in my head and I couldn't
believe everything that I was seeing and the rooms that
I was in, and you know, all of a sudden,
I'm at Jane Fonda's house, and then I'm sitting there
getting stone with Lily Tomlin and then holy moly, just
like somewhere, just put it down. I'm glad that I

(06:05):
thought of that, that, just keep it somewhere, not knowing
at the time that I would ever write a book,
because I never thought I would ever do such a thing.
I don't think i'll ever do it again.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Was there a journal entry that you had in the
book and your editor said, don pick it out.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
There's some that I use hold out that I felt
would hurt people that are close to me, or just
again just to be gossipy. I if it didn't serve
a purpose. I think if you, well, when you read it,
you'll find out it's a Valentine to all these women.

(06:41):
It's my love towards them. And yes, there's some gossipy things,
but I didn't want to just be bitchy to be bitchy,
and I know some people have written books since says
some things. I'm like, oh my god, I would never
say that. So, yeah, are you still journaling? Of course,
journaling about the two of you them, And then I
get out and get out of here.

Speaker 1 (07:05):
Yeah, Sharon, Yeah, who did they think they are?

Speaker 5 (07:12):
Yeah? Just reading things. My publishers, we're a little concerned
about the subtitle of the book. So it's the Girls
from from Golden to Gilmore and the subtitle of stories
about all the wonderful women I've worked with a Roseanne.
And so when we were doing the layout of it,

(07:32):
I was saying, and rose Ane should be on the cover,
and they're like, we shouldn't even have the subtitle, and
what happens if she sees it? Blah blah bah. I'm like,
if she sees it, that's gonna be a good thing.
So the compromise was it's on the back cover, so
you kind of have that and then flip book joke. Yeah,
but pretty much everything they once I got the first draft,

(07:55):
they wanted me to go back and make it more
like a script actually and make a dialogue rather than
all just me telling the story from the journal point
of view person. And at first I had a hard
time with that because I didn't want to lie like say,
oh Betty White said this, and like quoting things. So
I found a way to do it and so that

(08:16):
there was a nice balance.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
It's very enjoyable, and then I'm I'm I'm curious about
you kind of start off the book with the three
women that were my life.

Speaker 5 (08:26):
Yes, my mother, my grandmother, and my sister, and I
credit them very smart, very funny, very verbal women. And
I could listen to all that beautiful dialogue and we
were not shy about sharing our opinions with each other.
And I think that's where I got that idea, and
listening to women and how they talk differently, not knowing

(08:49):
that actually that figuration of generations is exactly what Gilma
Girls was.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (08:59):
Literally, my grandmother was very Emily Gilmore and the fact
that like Rory and Emily and my sister and my
grandmother were very similar and my mother was kind of
in the middle. So that was like whoa moment when
I sat there went oh, yeah, I can do this.
Yeah I know this, I can do this. But I

(09:19):
didn't know how QUIET was going to end it, because
I do. I just ended at Gilmore's for the title,
and then I we got to show reader Rocks and
I was like, oh, no, these are great stories about
wonderful women. And then I started doing theater and but
I'm still doing all these plays with about women. I'm
writing plays about women, So I kept that going. And
then as I'm writing it during COVID started, and then

(09:44):
my mother had a stroke and thirteen days in hospice
and it was the worst thirteen days of my life.
And I was like, oh, can I swear yeah, Oh,
this is the end of the book. If I'm so honest.
Everything else, I have to talk about grief. And I

(10:05):
think that's something people can relate to. And it does
harken back to different things in the book, like Golden Girls,
when the first episode we wrote and we were about
to shoot it that we be Arthur's mother passed. So
it's interesting all these full circle things that are connected
in some weird way. And as I say in the book,
we were going to the producer's offer to cancel the

(10:26):
taping of the show.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
This is this is for.

Speaker 5 (10:30):
And the Younger Man Yes, or Rose's mother. We had
two titles. I thought Blanche and the Younger Man was
could not be like I didn't see and the Emmy
goes too, but you could be them. He goes to
Roses mother. That would be a classier, but the Emmy
did not go to I could have. We did get
a Writer's Skilled nomination for it, so I was very

(10:52):
thrilled for that but b Arthur said, no, I come
from the theater, and then in the theater we say
the show must go on. And she just knew all
these people that were employed, like they need to go
to work, So let's keep the plan and film it
on Friday. And but if you watch that episode, that
scene between Be and Nostelle when Estelle thanks b for

(11:15):
treating her like a woman and not like an old lady.
Who I mean right now, even the hairs on my
arms start standing up, Like Be can't even look a
Stelle in the face because she knows she'll just break
and start crying. That's real emotion.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, that's amazing, Like and that you know that b
Arthur was that old school like broad but also that
old school actor of nothing stops for the show.

Speaker 5 (11:46):
Yeah, and it's interesting to see where we are now.
It's like, no, if people need like a day mental
day off, like you take it. It's a very different
way of looking at things. And even just like with illnesses,
like remember the colder sniffles, we would just go to work.
It's like now it's like stay home, Like those sniffles
could be something we don't even know. So it's just

(12:08):
how the world has changed.

Speaker 1 (12:10):
I know. But okay, so let's talk about the episodes
that you are in. Okay, We're not going to talk
about the world changing. Yeah, we'll get to that.

Speaker 5 (12:17):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (12:17):
I want to talk about the Golden Girls part of
the book and the episodes that you Engin wrote.

Speaker 5 (12:24):
Okay, but people have to understand which they really don't.
They think so are because our names are on three
of those. So when we the first one was just
a freelance episode, and because we wrote such a great
first draft, they brought us on immediately on Step On
season one. And the only reason I think we got
those voices down is because you know, I was raised

(12:45):
with you do your homework. We went to all the
tapings between getting the job and they started filming them.
They were not on the area yet. Remember this is
the summer before the show went on the air in
nineteen eighty five. Yeah. Yeah, so we're just watching the
tape and the writing. Oh they say that, Oh look,
you know Rose has all these long stories. So we

(13:05):
put that in the show, like we're smart enough to
know these are runners, this is the characters. Let's like
lean into what we saw. So I think they got that,
and it's for a writing staff to get a first
a good first draft that everyone can work off of.
That's like gold. So that's why they brought us on staff.
We were not contracted to write any other episodes, but

(13:27):
the writing stuff was like, no, this is good. Let
them go off and write another one. We can, you know,
then we can just rewrite it. So then and we
kept writing good ones. So that's why we ended up
with three. But you as a writing staff, you work
on all the episodes. So even if you're it's not
written by we're in the room, you're pitching jokes. I
don't remember which jokes I pitched for that. I I mean,

(13:49):
there's so much craziness that goes on. But a lot
of people don't understand that. And even like Susan Harris
didn't understand that when it's in the book about when
phone call and I put the words that she left
on Jim's phone, not machine whatever it is, voicemail, you know,
and she was complaining about something and oh, you only

(14:11):
wrote three. Not to put her down because she created
she's an amazing writer, and she was in pain when
she made the phone call. But she had epstein bar,
which was an autoimmune disease, so she couldn't come into work.
So when she would write a script that week, we
had an easy week because we really didn't rewrite very

(14:32):
much of it. It's mostly trimming for time. We were
in the trenches there every day. So for her to say, oh,
you only wrote three episodes, I want to say, honey,
we were there. You weren't. I mean, she couldn't be,
but you know, you have to give credit. We were
all there as a group. And it doesn't matter if
your story editors or staff writers or executive you know,

(14:57):
producer of writers on the show in the room together,
you're all eating the same food, drinking the same coffee.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Yeah, it's a very like you know, that's a story
that happened to you. And she called and left a
main message, a terrible.

Speaker 5 (15:10):
Message that you know, she got me on the phone
like I'm like, Jim, I picked up the phone not
knowing it was her, and it was just like oh,
and this was around the me too moments, So I
didn't want to like, you know, I want her to
speak her mine. But then I said, was like, just
hold on a second. You know how the business works.
In every interview, like including this one, I say, you're

(15:33):
the genius behind it. You wrote the pilot, you came
up with the characters. I mean, she is genius that
that she did that.

Speaker 1 (15:41):
But this was in response to there being an announcement
somewhere that there was going to be so a quote
unquote Golden Girls for men.

Speaker 5 (15:48):
Yeah, Silver Foxes, which ended up being a play. And
you know, we we'd license and publishers in the Drama
Bookshop in New York, which I still can't believe. Uh,
thank you. So we did a big production in Dallas
with the brilliant Michael Uri who's on the Apple show
Shrinking when he directed it, and with Uptown Players. They

(16:10):
just commissioned us to write a sequel to it. So
we're doing the Silver Foxes too. Now it's been done
in Columbus. I'm going back to the end of October
to Detroit, my hometown. They're during a production there. We're
hoping to do it in Palm Springs sometime very soon.
So now it's been down all over the place, which
is very exciting.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
That is very exciting, and it I mean, it's a
it's a weird thing to get upset about because like
there's a Golden Girls on a train like every other season,
like you know.

Speaker 5 (16:42):
Everything, just because you know the hybrid reporter calls it
this pilot or this play. It's an easy way to
say it's a gay man's Golden Girls. That's like a headline.
And that's what I said to her. I'm not saying it,
They're saying it. And then she kind of got, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
You know, it's a lot of emotion in holloween.

Speaker 5 (17:03):
Well, she also Paul with her husband had just passed,
so I think you think she was. I think she
was still in the grieving period, and I think that
probably she was. You know, there was some memorial service
and people were coming up toward thinking, hey, congratulations, I
hear Golden Girls is being rebooted, and you know, once
it's fine, but if you're bombarded with that, it can

(17:23):
be it can be hurtful.

Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
When the sad Colada was kind enough to talk with us,
he mentioned that he had spent several years watching sitcoms
being made so he could learn how it all worked.
And you mentioned that you were able to go and
see a couple episodes before you guys wrote yours, which
of course is.

Speaker 5 (17:43):
All that while we were writing, right, which.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Was totally invaluable.

Speaker 4 (17:47):
First of all, there aren't that many sitcoms that are
shop for a live audience that much anymore anymore.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
But back then, yeah, there were a lot of them.

Speaker 5 (17:55):
Yes, some seasons there were like seventeen and we would
have our pick, like which showed do you want to write?
You know, and now there's.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, well yeah, well maybe two yeah, but hardly any basically,
which unfortunately, it's too bad. Did they know you were
perhaps being considered and let you come and watch or
or something like that, because I think with a sad
it was something like he met a couple of people
and they were kind enough to let him come and

(18:22):
just Learnfore.

Speaker 5 (18:25):
That we did have a mentor, Gary Keeper, who has
since passed in and worked at Paramount. So when we
did move out here, we couldn't afford to even go
to movies, so we would just go to free tapings
of things. We went to Laburn and Shirley. We went
to actually one of the first episodes of Cheers before
it was on the air, So it was that summer
between them picking up the pilot in the spring to

(18:48):
it airing in September, and Jim and I looked at
each other we went this is exactly our style of writing,
and we ran back home and we started writing a
cheer specscript. No other writer had seen Cheers, so we
were the first cheer spec out there. So when that
came out, it like our life changed instantly. And we

(19:08):
had written Alice Love Sydney, Effects of Life, but that
cheer script was I mean, people just like, oh my God,
like this. They'd love the show before it became popular.
It was in the industry, it was like considered a
very classic show, so that that changes. But I think

(19:29):
like Golden Girls just being there and watching week after week,
and you know back then, seasons were you know, over
twenty episodes.

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah, it was twenty five episodes.

Speaker 5 (19:39):
Yeah, so that was like school for us writing sitcom
one oh one and I was just talking to someone
about playwriting and they were like, well, do you want
to work with the director and they can help you
with cuts? And I'm like, you know what, I don't
need help with cuts. When you think about like a
playwright during their lifetime maybe writes two, three, four or
five plays, think of how many half hours I worked

(20:01):
on And if you just even take like my show
Reader Rocks, I was in the editing room for forty episodes.
That's like forty little plays that I had to get
cuts down to the exact second to go on the air.
So I think I know about cuts in a good way.
Like this is like, this is my experience that I
can bring to the table, even though some people are like,

(20:22):
well that's too much. That's just that was my training.

Speaker 1 (20:25):
Yeah, And so what was it like to be there
to two of you?

Speaker 5 (20:29):
Garry as hell? Think of it. Think of it. You're
going to work and you're looking at be Arthur and
b Arthur is saying words that you wrote or you
have to write words for be Arthur. Let's just stop there.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (20:43):
Then you add Betty White, then you add Rue McClanahan,
then you add a Stlghetty, Then you have with Thomas Harris.
That was like did soap, And like, I mean, that's
a lot for any any especially a young person coming
to pala. I'm scared, I say fifteen, Yeah, but obviously
not just at the very very beginning, yeah, of our careers.

(21:06):
And that was frightening. And then you want to get
your option picked up, which it was, and then you
want it picked up for season two, which it was
not even though Susan Harris sent to us at the
REP Party seeing a couple of months. That was very
hard to take and it was a first like knocked down,
Like you know, I was raised. You do good work,
you move up the ladder. And we were doing good

(21:27):
work and we got nominated for a right skilled award. Nope,
I mean there was and I was like, oh, there's
politics involved. It's a lot more than just doing good
work in this business and in most businesses, right, yeah,
not even just in Washington, but here in beautiful Hollywood.
There's politics involved, and you have to learn how to
navigate those politics. And that's a whole other follow our.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Sometimes those politics have nothing, there's nothing to do with it.

Speaker 5 (21:55):
First has nothing to do with your quality of work,
and then it has nothing to do with you. It's
other things. And especially back then and now too, there's
this toxic masculinity that we had to walk in and
as closeted gay and there was all that. So there's
just a lot to navigate when you're a young person

(22:15):
and you're in the closet and you're trying to hide
who you are to keep getting work. Politics.

Speaker 4 (22:21):
Political politics at work is always difficult. It's almost never personal,
but it's but it's still the one of the hardest
things you have to learn how to navigate and whatever
business it is.

Speaker 5 (22:31):
Yeah, you do your work, and it's odd because in
your work you have to be really sensitive to do
good work. But then so I tell when I teach acting,
it's show business. There's the show part where you're vulnerable
and everything is out there and it's just ozing, and
then there's a business you have to put on a
hard hat. So it's like and that hard hat to

(22:53):
protect yourself, and it's like and some people it's just
too much for them and they can't handle it. And
I think for whatever reasons, we have been able to,
and I think that's why we have some longevity. Or
also having a writing partner that you can just laugh
at with and go like did you just see what
they said? Or did that really happen? Or wait, Roseanne

(23:15):
has to be written out of this week's episode because
she's getting electric shock. I mean, like what And but
we had each other.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Too, I was going to say, and how do you
navigate that relationship? So fascinating?

Speaker 5 (23:28):
I never thought I could because I had never really
been in a romantic relationship, but a business relationship. I
just I didn't first of all, think I could be
a writer because I didn't read. But then as a
young sixteen seventeen year old teenager in the suburb of Michigan,
I knew there was going to be somebody out there.
I didn't even know what a writing partner was, but

(23:49):
I knew there was somebody that could complete me in
a way. And I came through it from an acting background.
He came through it through journalism. So we came together
with that, and we just naturally went into this thing,
and we came up with our business name. So we
were like in college, we agreed we'd be known as

(24:10):
Zimmerman Berg. I don't know why we said that, and
then but we would be credited as James Berg and
Stan Zimmerman, which we thought, well, that's fair. And then
early on we had this thing like let's not talk
during the weekend and that wait Monday, when we got
together to write, we'd be like, oh. And we kind
of kept that going through the years until like we
had like certain assignments and just we had to get
together on weekends. And it's really been just an interesting

(24:35):
journey and you know, there have been ups and downs,
which I talk again about in the book.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Talk about that in the book at which is really
interesting because you know, the writing partnership is fascinating to me. Right,
I've written with people, but I never had a long
term writing partnership.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
We're still doing it, and you're saying, how crazy is
that that all these years later? You know, I mean
there were years where it was like five days a
week and then on weekends I was writing my plays
with another person. And now it's not as much because
he kind of had a mid life crisis and didn't
want to spend all those hours on a sitcom. And
I'm like what, Like I thought, this is what we're

(25:12):
working for. So that was a real shocker. That was
around the Gilmore Girls time, and I was like, oh okay.
And that's when I started going back into theater and
then directing plays and then ultimately writing plays. And all
those weekends of writing plays now have come to fruition
and I'm directing those plays all over the country. And
now he's like, hey, where are you going now? It's

(25:34):
like come back and write this or that. I'm like, well,
I'm busy. People seem interested in these plays and I
love going to different towns and doing them and that's
been just a really exciting new chapter of my life.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
That is exciting, That is really really cool. Okay, so
back to the Golden Basble. You're on season You're in
season one, Blanche and the younger Man, Rose's mom is
the Well. And then Adult Education flu, which was the
one that you wrote, the first one that got you
the staff gig? Was it, Blanche?

Speaker 5 (26:08):
No, Blank's in the end?

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Okay, So those first one, because it's it does it's
a beautiful Goldman girls.

Speaker 5 (26:15):
I don't know how he did it. It still stocked
me sometimes. So years later, I was actually on set
of Hot in Cleveland and I was observing the director
because people said, stand, you're directing theater, you should be
directing sitcoms. I'm like, okay, oh some nice money in that,
and it felt the natural. I shadowed the director for
thirteen shows and still couldn't get a job. A lot

(26:38):
of those directors are like, I'm not giving him an episode.
Like yeah, I'm like, you're directing fifteen to twenty episode
and you couldn't give me one. But anyway, I learned
a lot, and I met a lot of wonderful actors
through that. But I was on Hot in Cleveland and
Todd Milliner with one of the producers New Mean. He says, Oh,
we're doing benefit for Celebration Theater, and Celebration Theater had

(26:58):
given me my first directing theater gigs and they said,
we're going to do the Castle Hot in Cleveland. Reading
a script of The Golden Girls, can you recommend an
episode from the series in any of the years, I'm like, Todd,
you're going to do one of mine? Hello? And he's like, well,
can you email it to me? I'm like, Todd, we
wrote them on typewriters. There's no folder. What am I

(27:22):
going to do? I can fold it up and I
want to huh. So I said, I'm going to go
home and I'm going to bring my original copy and
you're going to treat it like it's you know, like
it is gold.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
Gold.

Speaker 5 (27:34):
It is gold. It is definitely gold. And I've like
I watched it as a copy then like I thought
the machine would eat it up or something. And we
did Blanche in The Younger Man. I got to watch
Betty White do it, but she would not play Rose. Yeah,
So who did you play She wanted to play Dorothy

(27:55):
of course, which that to me is like you don't
need the therapist to figure that one. But anyway, that
was quite interesting and seeing the great Wendy Mallick in
the whole of Valley Burton, Nelly and I went down
to rehearsal before they just like rehearsed it once and
then we had like a sellout on the set. That's
CBS Radford. I'm just listening. I'm going what young man

(28:20):
would write the story? And the way the words and
the way they talk, it was like, I don't yeah,
but it was the most magical evening. And I think
they had to like pride me from the set to
leave because I just I just was soaking it all in.
It was such a beautiful, really a full circle cool moment.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
That is so cool. That is so cool. And so
the lines, there's some famous lines from that. What's your favorite?

Speaker 5 (28:44):
Do you have one in What Blanched dog Years?

Speaker 1 (28:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (28:47):
That's that was in I think the rough draft. So
what made us right in what Comma Blanche Comma dog Gears?
Why did we put it in that order? We just
heard it in those voices and it's like the perfect order,
but it doesn't really make sense, you know, but coming
out of her mouth, it's like, of course she has
to say it that way. It's all that watching her,

(29:09):
I just watching, yes, and that that's an art to itself,
which I learn at a young age when I started
taking acting classes at age seven and a half and
they said just go watch, listen to other people, observe people.
An actor is about observing and listening. And I just

(29:29):
took that, did that in my acting, and I put
that into my writing.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
That's also the writer. The power of the writer is
the power of listening. Yes, yeah, anyway, Yes, that's I
think my favorite line from the show.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
Becausen't like when we saw the cheers. We notice, you
know when when clip for whatever come in, they would
just come in and go hey, hey, right, we would
never write down that's not a joke. But if you
notice when they come in they go hey, hey, oh,
still write it down. So when we did our cheerspeck
and we did hey, people are like, why would they
even know to do that? There was no scripts to read,

(30:04):
you know, but we heard that's what they did each
time they came in, and it was just part of
their vernacular.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
It's very important if you want to be a writer
that you study. You want to write, I want to write,
and you break it down and you and then you.

Speaker 5 (30:21):
But now you can you can get copies of scripts
everywhere and so you can read it. Oh that's the
way they did it. Like when we were doing our
first spec script of Alice, there was no Alice specscripts
that I could get in New York. In my little
fifth floor walk up studio with two burners on the
half of a refrigerator, I had to sit and watch
episodes of Alice with a notepad and go, okay, they

(30:43):
have like I would time it. Okay, they have two
minut little thing and then a commercial and then the
show comes back and then there's like three scenes commercial,
three scenes and then the tag or I didn't even
know it's a tag, and this whole thing at the end.
And then I watched the next episode it's like the
same thing and going, hey, you know there's a format
to it. And that's how we learn the format.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
That's the assignment that my husband, who win, he's teaching writer.
He's a writer two for TV. He and the first
thing he does if he's working with somebody it's like
I want to write a this, It's like go watch one,
watch it, yes, write it down. Yes, because once you
write it down, it becomes you.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
Can see it.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
You can see it.

Speaker 5 (31:19):
Yeah, even if you want to direct, like multi camp
I say, even to actress, look at it like a shell.
Like friends. You can literally count if you just did one, two,
three four cameras, you can go. You could go this
shot one four three three two one four. You can
start seeing it and it's like, oh, that's how it's
put together.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah, all right.

Speaker 5 (31:41):
So of the three of the three episodes, episodes with
our names on it, with your names, and I know
you work out, but I forgot. I've got some funny questions.
On the last cruise, someone would say to me, so
were you in the room with those four ladies? And
I'm like, no, Rose, I would in Altadena whenever writing.

(32:02):
Of course I was in the room with them. What
do you think, Like did they rehearse it? Like? What
are you crazy? Of course they rehearsed it. I went
to work. I saw them at work. They were my
co workers. And I say it in a loving way,
but a little I throw a little you know, little Dorothy,
and come on let me have some fun.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
But I can understand if you're not sometimes, you know,
on some level, if you're just watching it at home
and not thinking about how it's made, because that was me.
These people are just sitting there and these things just
come out of their mouth, you.

Speaker 5 (32:30):
Know, think about I have said some things on Facebook
when these Facebook grips, and I'm in a lot of them,
and they don't. You're in ours, yeah, of course. And
there's a herring scene at at the table, you know,
and Betty White says something and the other women laugh. Well,
people say, oh, Betty White ad lib that and she

(32:52):
cracked them up, and I'm like, hello, no, like every
word was written, and then people start fighting. He's like, well,
what do you know about it? And someone say, standing
wrote it. Yeah, And then people like Marshall, other people
that worked on the show. We'll send copies of the
script with the actual words. And I think it's a
testament to their acting that it looked like it was

(33:14):
improv and they're so talented, but they said every single
word that was written, And unlike any other TV show
I've been on, they thank the writers in every interview.
If you every you know, go to YouTube and like
whether it's you know, merv Griffin, any talk show, they
say it's the writers, you know, just say the writer

(33:36):
Susan Harris. They knew it was collectively this crazy group
of people over the years.

Speaker 1 (33:43):
Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back. All right,
welcome back. So anyway, let's talk about like you coming
in too, Golden Girls. How did your agent or whoever
send you over describe it?

Speaker 5 (34:01):
What do you mean, Like, Okay, you're going to go
meet they pitched to us or to them to you.
We were running around, Yeah, it was just another meeting.
Remember at that time, the idea of a show about
four older women in Miami, Like you go, well, it's cute,
but no one's going to watch that, That's what that

(34:22):
was a conventional wisdom. So we were out pitching. We'd
been on staff, and then we did a bunch of
freelance episodes, like we wrote an episode of Fame that
this unknown person person called jam Jackson was in.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
On our last episode.

Speaker 5 (34:38):
Yeah yeah, and Debbie Allen directed. And then so we
were out pitching to family ties and we did get
an episode of Valerie which ends up turning into the
Hogan family and then we went and uh pitched two
Golden Girls. So you go in because there was no
computers to like send us the pilot. You went into
the office and then you sit in a room and

(35:00):
watch the pilot and then you go away and you
come up with episode ideas and you come back in
the pitch day or no, they give you a couple
of days. Yeah, sometimes the very awkward, like there'll be
some producers that will sit with you. It's like, yeah,
that's weird. No, because we like to like, oh well
that's not funny, or oh that's been well whatever. So uh,

(35:24):
we we went and pitched to the Valerie Family, got that,
and went in pitch to Golden Girls. Got that. So
something just I don't know why. Maybe it was our
agent said this, this could be something you should focus
on this. So we told h Valerie, like you can.
They bought the story, but we didn't write it, and

(35:45):
we just focused everything. I'm Golden Girls and I'm glad
we did.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Yeah, and then what you know, so you get now
you get highed some somehow, I don't know how.

Speaker 5 (35:59):
Suddenly you know, and then it went from yeah, I
mean but it was before they filmed our episode. You know.
So it was like they just knew from that draft.
And then suddenly they're like, and now you're at Sunset Gower,
and then and here's your office, Like okay, here's our office.
And then they said and then there's like this pa

(36:19):
guy who's going to be watching because we we wanted
to just teach him how sitcoms are done. It was
Chris Lloyd who co created Modern Family, and he's sitting
on the couch watching me and Jim freak out every day.
So he had like a it was like theater to him.
You're like, what, this is a great show, and we're just.

Speaker 3 (36:37):
Like a.

Speaker 5 (36:39):
And we weren't shy. He was like certain, we just
kind of forget he was there and we were just like,
oh my god, what do we doing, Malika. And then
they would say, you know from another episode, we need
what's called the blow the end of the scene, like
we need b Arthur or maybe with Sophia to have
the last joke of the scenes. You two go off
and come up with and then come back in the

(37:01):
room and pitch it to us. Not intimidating at all
to go in and pitch to like these soap and
Benson Riders and then Jim would you usually say, like
you do what you're the actor. So then I would
go and I would, you know, I would do my
Blanche and you know, I'm just devastated, like I would
like become a drag queen right there in front of everybody,
but I had to sell the joke and they would

(37:21):
laugh and they would pick one and they would go
into that. But we would set we sat in that
room and we can't do We're not joke writers, we're
not funny, we don't know how to do it. And
then we're just like, you don't have a choice, you know,
and you have to do it or you're not going home.
So we learned to do it.

Speaker 4 (37:39):
It's just so interesting listening to you talk about in
so many ways how things were at the time when
you started working on Golden Girls, and just from what
obviously much little I know, it seems like things in
a lot of ways are very very different, whether it
be how you get the material, how you as you
were being considered. You walk in someplace they literally type

(38:03):
cerial yeah, and there's that yeah, and and get your
be able to see what it is they're asking you
to work on or to pitch something about.

Speaker 5 (38:14):
Even in the writer's room. I mean now they have
it up on the screen, and then there was no
screen to put it up on. It was just someone
there writing, taking notes, and then they would go off
and I guess type it in and then we would
read it. So we'd be waiting a lot of times
for them to make copies of things for us to read.
Where it's like now you can just all see it
on the screen, or yeah, they could go right to

(38:37):
your computer and do it.

Speaker 1 (38:38):
I was I was visiting a friend of mine that's
on an animated show, the New Phineas and Verb, and I.

Speaker 5 (38:46):
Know Martin was Martin? Where was Martin? You know Martin?

Speaker 1 (38:50):
I know. I also know Matthew, Michael Matthews.

Speaker 5 (38:53):
By the way, Oh well you know Martin is a
mentor at the Castle. I was just spent some time
with him in France.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
Delightful.

Speaker 5 (39:02):
Okay, well I will definitely do that.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
But it was so funny because they were zooming with
other the writers producers. They had the script up, they
were punching it up and it was happening in real
like it's like real time. It was real time, and
you're like, this is so crazy. Like, it's crazy, it's
crazy how fast it is now.

Speaker 5 (39:22):
And the writing assistant like they would hear like a
room full of writers and they would like put all
the jokes down, and then certain ones will get in there,
like how do you do that?

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Yeah, that in and of itself, I.

Speaker 5 (39:33):
Could never have done that.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
It's it's it's crazy.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
But I would imagine in some ways it's made things easier.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
But in some things and.

Speaker 5 (39:41):
I think easier, I think here, but it's also.

Speaker 1 (39:45):
You know, I think that the challenge for all of
like filmmakings easier, but then a lot of bad decisions
get made at the last minute. How is that possible
because you don't have to plan. I think it's now
you don't have to plan.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
What do you mean?

Speaker 1 (40:00):
I think for for sex driven.

Speaker 5 (40:04):
Movies in particular, let me just touch an ai or
touch an ai.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
But I imagine that somebody came up with that, like
she drops the thing and the thing you know in
snow white, and then later.

Speaker 5 (40:17):
Are like an executive. So yeah, we need that. Yeah,
we had a portal. We did some testing and you
have to have a portal, and like the hell I am
put on portal and then we put portal and then
suddenly and it's like portal.

Speaker 4 (40:29):
Well, from a technology standpoint, I worked at marketing at
ABC for a number of years in the promo department,
so they would cut all of the and produce all
of the.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
Reels for all the new shows.

Speaker 4 (40:45):
Now, before satellites came along, they had have everything done
by like whatever time, had the tapes at the airport
by the time the last plane what's flying to New
York to get it there in time. But now when
you have something in somebody in decisive working on there

(41:06):
were times right in the middle of the show they're
working on the ending. It's not done because somebody said,
because I knew it could be done, Oh, we want
to change this, we want to fix that, we want
to this isn't you know whatever. So there's an upside
in the downside too, as with everything to the technology
of it. But more than that, I'm just thinking about

(41:26):
in terms of what the two of you as writers,
you have this chance to go in and you're sitting
and you're watching the episode of say the Golden Girls.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
As we were talking about.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
It just seems like you had more time to really
do stinking and had more time to at least initially,
or at least sometimes as opposed to trying to, you know,
figure out fifty things to do, or some people aren't
making decisions because they don't have to at the last minute,
you know, up until the very last minute.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
And I don't know what degree that it makes any but.

Speaker 5 (42:01):
You have to like get dressed and get in the
car and go over there in the park and are
you know, and now you can like I can just
like walk you know, five steps and get on zoom.
Like the time that saves.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
It's a lot, it's a lot more fun to come
in person.

Speaker 5 (42:18):
Is That's why that's why I came out here to
Beatville Pasadena.

Speaker 1 (42:23):
All right, So going back to your book, you have
so many stories in your book about so many amazing
women and your friendship with them. Yes, do you want
to talk about some of them? Who Bernhard?

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Oh, I love Sandy as we call her.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
I would like to. I think you need to tell
a story about how you ended up in a women's
bathroom with Sandra Bernhard.

Speaker 5 (42:45):
And Madonna and Madonna on the count the washing what's
that called where you wash your hands counter? I guess
that's the counter, right, the sink, mason area whatever, it
was this like down in dirty club on Pico and
we would here in La here in La Yeah, we were.

(43:06):
We were down in Pico. We would go dancing and
it was just a super cool club and I knew
the owners and Sandy would come because we all were
hanging out with the same group of people. And then
by that point she was friends with Madonna. And then
all of a sudden, the door swings open and it's
Madonna and Warren Baty together. So they were dating at
that time. And then I just remember them like he

(43:26):
would just sit in the corner. He'd be like, eh,
you just go dance with the argue with your gay boyfriends.
And then all of a sudden, we're on the dance
floor with Madonna, so like think of that. So you
like you're like, how did that happen? And then Standard
is like I'm coming to the bathroom, come with me
or something, and then I'm like okay, and then there's
Madonna in there and there's just the three of us,
and I think I was trying to buddy up to her,

(43:47):
like the shower that was like cool and from Michigan too,
And you know, I don't know if it worked. I mean,
obviously it didn't because we didn't become fast friends. You know, no,
like why didn't she like want to like hang out
with me and drag me on David Letterman. But you know,
I so respected her and I loved her music and
still do. And it was just fun to be in

(44:09):
that orbit. But it was just like you know, and
people say, oh, you do a lot of name dropping,
but that's who came to the club where I was
dancing with friends, you know, it wasn't that was just
Madonna there. So yeah, it's very exciting they were.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Name dropping because they're like, oh, let's go to that
club where stands.

Speaker 5 (44:27):
Yeah, I'm sure they were doing that right, No, no,
but nobody cares about me. I mean that's what's kind
of fun about doing these cruises and fan festivals, like
for you know, two days on the weekend, like people
care about me or know who I am or you know,
they always everyone's so great, but they always started with like,
we hate to bother you. When I said, you're not
bothering me. For a writer, it's so exciting for me

(44:50):
to hear, like what did the show mean to you?
That's why, like I see, you know, obviously Golden Girls
mean something. Yeah, so to hear all those stories come
back for right, because we're usually invisible. We're watching and
observing and listening. Actors get it all the time, but
we can just be. So that's kind of fun to
go and to do that and have that energy just

(45:10):
come at you, you know, wherever I go. And then
I come back to Alan and it's like, you know,
step aside knocking me over, you know, and then may
it wherever it is Ralph's or whatever supermarket, And so
it is a little bit of a like, Okay, you're
back to reality, I.

Speaker 1 (45:28):
Know, but you've had so many like we love you okay,
and you like, you know again in the book. It's
so you're like, oh, you know, and then you're you're
going to carry Fisher parties.

Speaker 5 (45:40):
To get invited to the Vanity Fair party, and you know,
we all watched it at home in our pajamas, which
I did. Then I dressed, got in the car, went
to the Danny Fair party and I'm standing next to
Oprah Winfrey that I just saw on TV in that outfit,
and I'm like, why am I wearing this little smart
And so it's like I think people like this just

(46:03):
this midwestern boy somehow ended up in these little spots
and it's it's it's funny and weird, and I, you know,
still have all the baggage of being that like this
nerdy theater kid that somehow landed here and ended up
in certain places certain places.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
But what like, was there a point where you're like
either you and Jim or you were like mine made it.

Speaker 5 (46:29):
I never think of it that way. It's like it's
always this moving I think when I was younger, I
thought that if you got to this like Placateau and
you could just like I'm just going to hang here. No,
you ain't hanging anywhere. It's like you want to You
got to keep going. You got to keep moving up
because it's it's changing or people are passing you by.
And so it's always there's always something. It's always work

(46:50):
and it's exciting, and uh, I think it's important to
be in the present and appreciate and how lucky you are.
But it's never about like, oh, look where I am.
It's like like look where I am? Oh my god.
You know that's kind of and it just keeps going like,
oh my god, I'm here. I'm like I'm going to
be in a you know, a castle in France or
in Italy, Like how did I get here? It's like

(47:12):
I'm walked into this fairy tale and I'm so grateful
and was I've always been and I think that's being raised,
you know, by my mother. I'm in the Midwest, in
this little suburb of to really appreciate each moment, whether
it's on the set when I'm standing there at Sunset
Gower looking one side as a bleacher full of all

(47:33):
these people I don't know, and then there's b Arthur
and Betty White and Room with Clanahan is Stilghetti and
they're saying my lines and they're laughing at my lines,
and that's just like, whoa, That's amazing.

Speaker 4 (47:45):
And I would imagine that that's the kind of approach,
that's the kind of thought that helps keep people grounded,
if you will, in this crazy town, because it always
seems like no matter where you are, there's somebody higher
up the food chain than you. There's there doesn't seem
to and it's really easy to get sucked into. I

(48:07):
need you know, this is great, but I'm looking beyond
how wonderful things are right now today.

Speaker 5 (48:13):
I appreciate it. And I have my friends and I
talk I think I talked about this in the book
where they'll sell a pilot, macho congratulations, I'll call them
up and it's never going to happen, but you just
sold it two hours ago, Like you can't even enjoy
like that a moment. Take a moment, enjoy it, and yes,
of course we don't know where anything is going to go,
but you have to enjoy the road along the way.

(48:34):
And yes, there's gonna be times and things, and you're
going to trip and fall and stub your toe, and
you know what, it's going to heal and you're gonna
get better and then you're going to keep going and
then there'll be something else along the way. And trust
the process and enjoy the process because there's you can't
stop it. It's just you know, you can fight it,
but then then where do you get.

Speaker 4 (48:56):
Yeah, And it's I think in just in life in general,
I think that's as it's really important to take the
moment and appreciate it. There's always going to be ups
and downs coming forward, but if you don't take those moments,
then it just can suck all of the joy out
of your life.

Speaker 5 (49:12):
Yeah, you know that's what I wanted. I think what
you got from the book that it's not just stories,
that it's things you could philosophies you can take into
any job, any part of your life and hopefully, you know,
skip through life and enjoy it. Like my mother said
that my brother came out of the room just like crying,
and she said, I came out like laughing, with this

(49:33):
a big smile on my face and said, I think
I got like a happy kid, and I just I
think that's just my nature. And yeah, and why I
am the way I am.

Speaker 4 (49:44):
It took me a little bit longer to get there, Okay,
but I'm I try to do that as much as
I possibly can.

Speaker 5 (49:50):
Well, you know what to say about trying, don't try,
just do it. That's what Yoda says. Yeah, that's what
I teach in and cry. I have people I saw
that they will be like, uh, take this pencil from me. Okay, okay,
now try to you never get the pencil. Yeah, So

(50:13):
words they're powerful. Watch what you tell yourself. If you're
saying I'm going to try to do it in your mind,
you're giving yourself an out almost like I'm never going
to really do it.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 5 (50:22):
So either just say I'm going to do it, but
just yeah, I know you're going to hate me. Yeah, yeah,
I should do a Ted talk. I would love to,
but I couldn't write it. I'd have to get like
a chat you know, to do it for me.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (50:39):
Maybe performing that's a lot of words. Do they just
memorize it or is there like a monitor or something.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I think you can have them moment, Okay, I think
I would hope.

Speaker 4 (50:47):
So, I mean, I can't imagine somebody would go out
there and not be just sort of wing it as
they're standing there trying to me.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
There's also a lot of rehearsal memory.

Speaker 5 (50:56):
It was like, get okay, I know you could part
of me, which is what I've been doing now in
my suicide Awareness play, acting the narrator, which is basically
me and with a very very heavy subject. And I've
been doing it all over the country and I did
it recently in Virginia with high school kids and giving

(51:20):
I wanted to do that with two adult actors and
then two young students audition kids, put them in the
play and give high school kids like their first professional job,
to put on the resume would be with me and
other adult actors. And I just actually yesterday I heard
from one of the girls, the girl that was in it.
She goes, you changed my life. Like we just treated

(51:42):
her like you're a professional actor and you're acting with us.
They had never had that, you know, they maybe do
play in camp or high school with other kids, but
it was suddenly real and with something heavy that they
felt they could make a difference in the world.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
That is amazing. I think that's really powerful. We we
just had a reading of mine new play.

Speaker 5 (52:03):
Okay, we'll be doing together.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
And we but basically there were three high school students
that were involved with it too, as musicians and one
as assistant director because I knew she was interested and
I was like, do you want to come do this?
And she I wrote this like amazing, you know, sort
of email afterwards to the whole team going thank you
for my first professional gig and the thing and it
was so great and it's so what You're like, that's.

Speaker 5 (52:30):
That means their life? Yeah, Like if someone had given
me that opportunity, I know.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
You're like, yeah, come along for this ride and we'll
we'll walk you through the steps of it.

Speaker 5 (52:40):
So it was the tacticals that that happens by you
picking that person and then what they do in the
rest of the world. And it does make a difference.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
It does make a difference how you treat other people,
what you lifting up other people. As we know, it's
maybe our only option this point.

Speaker 5 (52:59):
Hard, but you know, right now we're the first line
of resistance. And it's important for theater artists to get
out there and connect with real humans. And you see
that interestingly in town halls, and you know with Bernie
and AOC going out there, having that connection in person
I think is important. And they're doing a version of theater,

(53:21):
I guess. And for us to go out there either
make people laugh or I think provoke conversation, like what
I'm doing with the suicide play. Otherwise you can just
you know, you want to crawl into your bed and
under the covers and hide and go I can't make
a difference, but you can.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
You can. And it's showing up and it's and it's
telling stories, and it's about connecting with people and realizing like, hey,
we're all in this together.

Speaker 5 (53:47):
Yeah, we're on this planet together. And the authering of people.
It's just got to stop. I mean we are only
better by our differences, and that we're what each person
can bring to the table. I mean we want all
kinds of people, and I can learn from you and
you and diversity is there can learn from Kevin. No, No,

(54:12):
it's it's true.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
We've gotten into some weird, upside down universe and the
only way out, I think is together. Like it's we
have to recognize how important human beings are to each other.
Everyone is valuable and needed and connected. And I don't know,
it's it's a very scary time, and it's hard to

(54:36):
write in a very scary time.

Speaker 5 (54:37):
I think sometimes I've actually done more writing. First of all,
I turned off MSNBC, which was That'll do because it
was my choir and I was like eating dinner around it.
I was like, you know, if learned so' donald was on,
I was there and all the people, and after September
it's like, no, no, I'm not going to get sucked
in with that. And I'm like writing all these plays

(54:59):
and all this stuff. I'm like, Okay, I have time
to do and see and see people and have experiences
in the world.

Speaker 1 (55:06):
I think, yeah, and I think it's important to tell
all the stories right, and you know we need to
react to when the Arthur is taken off of the website. Website, yeah,
for her service, right country.

Speaker 5 (55:22):
I think they have put her back on. I think
there was such a ground swell the Golden Girls people
are probably didn't put back on other people that didn't
need the ground as well. Yeah, like one of the
guys on Mejima, I mean heard Jackie Robinson. I mean
the list goes on and on. I just thought we
were over this, waking up and like and being like,
what is it today? Is the world still going on?

(55:44):
I just want to wake up and.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
And have government be boring again.

Speaker 5 (55:48):
I have coffee, Yes, let's just start there. Just just
have coffee without having to scroll through TikTok and go holy.

Speaker 1 (55:57):
Have my brain. Yeah yeah, So when did you feel
comfortably We were going to wrap up, but I have.

Speaker 5 (56:04):
A couple more questions.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yes, when did you feel comfortably out in Hollywood.

Speaker 5 (56:09):
Two minutes ago? Way after Golden Girls, I mean Golden
Girls that were in the closet. So and then a
few years went by, and because it was considered an
old boys network to be on the writing staff, I

(56:30):
mean actually when we were beginning, we would read articles
about Gary Marshall and his staff are writers and it
said I remember Gary saying something about during breaks from writing,
we all go and play basketball. I'm like, well, I
can't play basketball, so I can't be a writer like that.
I put those two together and I got to meet
Gary Marshall. Actually, but I think we just there was

(56:57):
a free alternative newspaper called The Laly and they were
doing a piece on Hollywood gay people, and somehow it
came to us and we went to our representatives and said,
I don't know if we asked, we just said we
were going to do it. Oh, we don't think that's
a good idea, and we're like, well we're doing it.
I mean, no, try, no, no, try, just do it.

(57:19):
It was like we're out in our life. I think
by that point we were probably out with people at
work and it's like we need to just be out
in the world and so that other people can see
it's okay. But we were probably the first, I think,
the first writing team to be out. And you know,
then all these other magazines wanted to do stories about

(57:41):
us because it was it was something unusual. I mean,
there were even very few women writers and staff. So
a lot of times we had to be like the
women police and I'd have to raise my hand and
go if there was a character description of this woman
and it was like, she's twenty eight and pretty, and
I'm like, excuse me, can we give her one more characteristic?

(58:02):
I mean, wanted to help us in writing, and what
is that? And why you know, just just do the
jokes and move on. I'm like, no, come on, come on,
we can do it, you know.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
And did you feel like you might be costing yourself
something by doing that?

Speaker 5 (58:18):
It didn't matter at that point. I mean in the beginning,
I think we had we wanted to keep jobs and
we wanted our contracts were new to so we kept quiet.
And now I think about it, and I go, so
they would really fire us because of that? But then
like that, maybe that was part of why we didn't
get aspect for Golden Girls. Did they not want to
have to talk about it or to think about what

(58:39):
they said in the room, you know, think about all
the things that were in the rooms when we weren't there.

Speaker 4 (58:45):
Yeah, do you think there were people or most people
though knew over time that they kind of figured out
or that they were told yes and did.

Speaker 5 (58:54):
But it was freeing once and then but then when
it came out, there was a period where that's all
they wanted to do was talk about it. And then
we would say the writer stuff, can we just go
back to the show, But they were so curious, or
like we were at an office at Paramount. There was
a big window and there would be like this gorgeous
girl would walk by and they were like nothing, and
I'm like, no, I mean it's a nice outfit. I

(59:15):
would to, you know, match that top with with the pants.
But and then the hot guy would walk by and
we go to them nothing. So and then one time
we were out of the room writing a script and
the writer's assistant said there was a group discussion between
all the men they were only men writers if they
were on a desert island and they had to like

(59:35):
hook up with one about me or Jim, which one
would they picked? What? Yeah, it's always on a desert
island with strike guys, like otherwise they couldn't do it.
You throw them in a desert island. Things happen, Things happen,
love island, folks. I got the executive producer, so I
thought I won. Yeah, I won.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
There.

Speaker 5 (59:53):
I was like, really, they're talking about us about that well,
and you.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
Know how many times that's happened for women out of
the room.

Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Oh, I'm sure all the time, all the time, and
and but all think about the sexist things they said.
I would say, yeah, I mean we we've hopefully come
a long way. And you know, as we would start
to do our own shows, I'd be like, can't we
just have an all women writing staff? Like like I
would just be my happy place and always I mean,

(01:00:24):
as you know in the book, I were always friends.
My best friends were women. I would and back then
we would talk on a phone for hours and dissect
everything in life. And it's just I just, for whatever
reason that was for it all comfortable.

Speaker 1 (01:00:40):
That's so. And it's true you're talking like like, I'm
also like curious about your you know, friendship with Lily Tomlin.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
And literally we love Lily. She's a goddess. The minute
as a young kid, I saw her on Laugh and
I was like, who the hell is that? And these characters,
I mean, they were just smart characters. And then she
was from Detroit and I was from Detroit. So then
when she was coming she had an album come out,

(01:01:06):
and she was coming back to Jail Hudson's department store
to sign the album. And I was like, Mom, we
were going there. I don't care if I have school,
We're getting out of school. And she knew I loved her,
and she dragged me to there and Lily signed the
record and I got to show Lily when she came
to my house. I dragged the record out and oh cool,

(01:01:28):
that was really cool. And then one time my mother
was she had my obsession for Lily, and thank god
she did that. But Lily was very involved in the
women's movement and there was a NOW meeting and it
was downtown, and she took me and my little sister
to see Lily Tomlin. She didn't tell my father where

(01:01:50):
we were going because it was a NOW meeting, and
you know, my god, was downtown and you know, there
were women there and there were lesbians there, and who
knows what could have happened. But I got to see
a little Tomlin performed there, and it was it was
really really cool. I got to tell her that as well.
So thank god that my mother saw this and she
was not afraid to let you blow them me be

(01:02:13):
like that It's like, for whatever reason, I loved her
encourage and encourage that I got to bring my mother
and Lily together. My mother was living in Santa Barbara
and it was my mother's birthday, and Lily was going
through town doing signs of intelligent life and she was
so nice to my mother, and I was like, Okay,
all's well in the world. This is perfect. So and

(01:02:36):
now I never really felt like what my mother must
have thought, like remembering all all these years of like
way back when, and then here we are and like
my son is just like hanging with Lily, hanging with
Lily thanks to her.

Speaker 1 (01:02:51):
I was going to say, and then you tell another
story about your performance in elementary school.

Speaker 5 (01:02:58):
Oh God, no one's asked about that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:00):
I want to.

Speaker 5 (01:03:02):
I thought I would bury that in the book Beautiful
it is. It's embarrassing, and I never really have mentioned
it to anybody except in the book. But in the book.
So I guess people. I mean I was in the
first time I was in drag, first and only time
in I think fifth grade talent show, I dressed in
drag and did Ernestine in front of my elementary school.

(01:03:26):
Like what my parents must have thought, Did you get last.
Of course I got last. It was funny and I
was I did the whole you know, the whole thing.
I did everything, But that was pretty brave. I don't
think if I really had thought about it, but I
think at some point we had a discussion in my
family was like, he's doing a character. So it wasn't
like I was being a woman. It was a character.

(01:03:48):
So he's an actor. These are just characters. I think
that's how my father got through it. I'm sure he was.
He was embarrassed, probably, but the fact that his son
got laughed like he couldn't not see and hear that,
and I think that's what allowed him to go through allowable.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Yes, And how was that relationship with your dad not good?

Speaker 5 (01:04:10):
And in the end, being a middle child, I was
always wanting, like my sister and him to get along,
and then I just didn't like the way he treated people.
And I finally, you know, you can't change people. You
can walk them to the water, but doesn't mean they're
going to get a drink from it. I had to

(01:04:31):
step away and he had to be who he was.
He was never going to learn and that was very disappointing.
When whether it's a family member or friend. They have
to do their thing. I didn't understand, like at this
point of your life, like, just enjoy your kids, Like

(01:04:51):
why why do you have to can't mold them into
whatever they're going to, Just enjoy it. I mean, you've
done your work. So oh yeah. Unfortunately at the end
of his life, we were we didn't talk, and that's
that's tough. It's tough. But you know what I feel
like now if for me, it's a very low bar

(01:05:15):
to be in my life, Like you have to accept
me as an equal human being.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
That's all.

Speaker 5 (01:05:20):
You would think, that's all, But there's you know, seventy
seven million that doul't see me as that. Yeah, and
if you can't meet me at that place, then I
just don't have time anymore. Like I want to be
surrounded by by loving people in this community that I've
created and that's where my family is.

Speaker 1 (01:05:45):
Yeah, there's enough negativity out there.

Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
Why have it in the people that you're you're closest
to that you're dealing with.

Speaker 5 (01:05:53):
No just because they have the same last name or
they grew up in the house that you were in.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
M Yeah, yeah, I'm from Georgia, I have you know,
and I'm very lucky. I had a very I had
two parents that were very different, but equal in their
respect for other people and in their understanding that if
that feeling uncomfortable was not an attack on and so

(01:06:22):
they could talk about feeling uncomfortable and being in situations
of feeling uncomfortable, and which meant they could talk about
you know, racism, and they could talk about sexism, and
they could talk about you know, being you know, equal
to everybody, even when they were uncomfortable and didn't understand it.

(01:06:44):
You know, my mom has come a long way in
a lot of her thinking, particularly around LGBTQ issues, and
it's been working like she you know, it's like, well
she's you know, she just didn't understand it, but it
didn't keep her from wanting to understand or denying people's existence.

(01:07:05):
Or that's for the difference is. And so it now
has become like she's a champion, and she's a champion
for human rights and for civil rights. And she's eighty
five and a little old white lady from Georgia. Well
she's she's not from Georgia, so that probably helps.

Speaker 5 (01:07:21):
To it doesn't matter what age. I mean is if
you have an open heart that it's not it's ageless.
So and it's great that she's a champion, but you
don't have to be a champion. You just have to
let everyone just be yes. That's very very I think
would be very simple. But for other people, for whether

(01:07:41):
they gives him a leg up, if they kept somebody
that they can stand on or put down, I don't know.
I never got that in being a liber Again, it's
just I want fair and balance. I just want people
to be fair about it. And I think, but I'm
so sensitive about other people and a lot of my
writing is about I was putting myself in other people's shoes. Yeah,

(01:08:04):
and that's very thematic in my work. And also people
said there just seems to be a heart from there.
So I always go to like, well, what I have
no idea what it's like or to be like you
or like you or anybody here. But if I can
just for a second, and that's what I'm people say, well,
you can only write what you are. I think, No,
why are we taking away a learning of possibilities. Let

(01:08:26):
some straight white guy write a gay character. Maybe they
he'll feel what it's like to be in my shoes.

Speaker 4 (01:08:33):
That's that's what has happened since the dawn of time.
People don't write about just people that are them or
like them. They write about all kinds of people. They
have to to tell their story because that's what's in
the world. And if you're going to create a world,
you're going to have all kinds of people, and you can't.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
You can't tell a story that without that.

Speaker 5 (01:08:53):
But we also have to create more spaces where people
do tell their stories because there's so many people that
we have been able to give them platforms and spaces
and places to be seen, whether it's television or movies
or theater. They just they haven't and so well we
can do both. Everyone always like like we can walk

(01:09:15):
into gum hm.

Speaker 1 (01:09:17):
We have room enough for everyone and love enough for everyone.

Speaker 5 (01:09:21):
I was writing with somebody and like, oh, I hope
their project dies, and I'm like, you cannot talk like
that in my house. Yeah, I mean, every let everybody succeed.
There's enough room for even for us to tell similar stories.
No one is going to tell the story from my
shoes and my eyes, you know, Y mean I tell
that to actors. If you have twins, it's still a

(01:09:43):
different perspective. You know, unless it's exactly less, even conjoining
twins like like they're still slightly different and that's the
difference is I think this is so beautiful in art. Again,
they're your.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Perspective, absolutely, and I think it's it's the power of
being able to see from other people's perspectives that gives
you an ability to write and gives you an ability
as a young man to write be Arthur, to write
for be Arthur. And and because you're like, I'm because
you were sincerely approaching that and I want to.

Speaker 5 (01:10:21):
I want to understand that. Some people say, like, how
would you know that way? Oh maybe that's how my
mother and grandmother fell. Oh okay, maybe that helps me
understand who why they were fighting about that or you know,
all those different specifics. And I would never have had
that if I wasn't writing for those characters.

Speaker 1 (01:10:44):
I'm just starting my revisit right, like just started with
season one and again like.

Speaker 5 (01:10:48):
You can stop after that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
I mean, that is the best one.

Speaker 5 (01:10:52):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:10:55):
That really it's hard to believe there's anything that season.

Speaker 5 (01:10:58):
There was something about it unfolding that was different than others.
And I have to say now watching future episodes, that
will get me into trouble, but it was very different
to me. I always felt like they're they're carbon copies
or faded copies of jokes we had done. And there
was also something and since talking to some writers they

(01:11:19):
got joy out of let's get them those old ladies
dirty lines to say, and like, no, we never thought that.
We were always like they were gods in my eyes.
So I want only wanted to give them like pearls.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
You know, there's so much world building in that first
season and so much character building, and you're inventing all
the you know, Saint Olaf's and all these these sort
of tropes for the Builden girls that became you know,
what they're known for. It's a pretty spectacular first season.
I will give you that.

Speaker 5 (01:11:53):
Oh give it to me. Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
I love it, Allie, Thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (01:11:59):
Thank you for having me back.

Speaker 1 (01:12:01):
This has been really fun, really has well. We will
have to figure out a way to have like Stan's corners. Okay, okay,
it's sure.

Speaker 5 (01:12:10):
I love it. So that's in the.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Thank you. You know here at eighties TV Ladies, how
much we love to shout out the amazing ladies of
the twentieth and twenty first century. And we love podcasts
who shout out amazing ladies of anytime, so we want
to tell you about the Art News Podcast. Every episode

(01:12:34):
they focus on telling the stories of the women pictured
in the most famous works of art through history. What
an incredible idea for a podcast.

Speaker 4 (01:12:43):
Please check out art News Podcast and here host Grace Anna,
who aims to reinterpret works of art by bringing the
stories of the women in those paintings to life. Who
are these women and what are their stories? You can
find out at art news podcast dot com For.

Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Our audio aography.

Speaker 4 (01:13:04):
Today, you can watch Golden Girls streaming online. It's currently
on Hulu with a subscription and on Filo without. It's
available for sale on YouTube, Apple, and Moore.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
You can order Stan's book The Girls from Golden to
Gilmore at Bookshop dot org. The link is in our description.
You can also find out more about Stan Zimmerman at
zimmermanstan dot com. And a little book that I enjoyed
reading is Tdmilestone series The Golden Girls by Kate Brown.

(01:13:40):
The advertising you here on this show covers only very
little of the cost of producing the show. The very
best way to support this show and not hear ads
and get some cool insider info and videos is on
patreon dot com slash Eighties tv Ladies. Your support goes
directly to supporting the show.

Speaker 4 (01:14:00):
We hope Eighties tv Ladies brings you joy and laughter
and lots of fabulous new and old shows to watch,
all of which lead us forward toward being amazing ladies
of the twenty first century.

Speaker 2 (01:14:16):
Hands pretty through the city, the world,

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Stan Zimmerman: From Golden Girls to Gilmore Girls - A Writer's Journey Through 80s TV

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Stan Zimmerman: From Golden Girls to Gilmore Girls - A Writer's Journey Through 80s TV