Warrior Women & RJ Stewart: Xena and Gabrielle's Impact on 90s TV

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Weirding Way Media, So pretty the.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
World. Hey, just a little note on our audio for
this episode. R J was in person for most of it,
but we actually did a little extra zoom interview after
our in person interview, So if you hear some changes
in the audio, please forgive us because they're two different interviews.

Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thanks.

Speaker 4 (00:39):
Welcome to Eighties TV Ladies, where anyone with a heart
and a love of the ladies of eighties television can
be an eighties TV lady, wear it loud and proud. Gentlemen,
Welcome to season four with your award winning hosts Sharon
Johnson and Susan Lambert had him Hello, I'm.

Speaker 3 (00:58):
Susan and I'm Sharon.

Speaker 5 (01:00):
Sometimes, Susan, you got to step outside your comfort zone.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
You gotta say.

Speaker 5 (01:03):
Sure, we might be eighties TV ladies, but we can
also look at nineties TV ladies, and there may be
no more fierce nineties TV lady than the heroic villain
turned goddess Zena Warrior Princess.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Now, back in the day, I knew about Zena, and
I caught some episodes when it aired, but just a few.

Speaker 5 (01:22):
How about you, Sharon, Well, I knew about it, but
I did not watch the show.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
Oh yeah, I was just starting film career and then
starting at Disney, and I didn't have a time to
watch a lot of TV. I sort of chose one
night of TV and it was the night of Buffy
and that was it. But I knew the show had
an amazing influence on a younger generation, and I always
admired the idea of the kick ass and camping nature

(01:47):
of Xena and Gabrielle.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
ZENA Warrior Princess aired in first run syndication from September fourth,
nineteen ninety five to June eighteenth, two thousand and one.
It was a spin off of the popular syndicated series
Hercules the Legendary Journeys, but ultimately became more popular than
its predecessor.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Filmed in New Zealand, the show follows the adventures of Xena,
played by Lucy Lawless, a villain now trying to redeem
herself with good works. She is joined in her adventures
by companion Gabrielle played by Renee O'Connor, who grows from
naive farm girl into kick butt warrior over the six seasons,
and their relationship grows from annoyance to best friend and soulmate.

(02:31):
With some definite romantic subtext. The show was super popular.

Speaker 5 (02:36):
Zena became the top rated syndicated drama in its second
season and remained in the top five for its whole run.
Its bond TV movies, comics, video game, role playing games,
and books.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
But it was.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Really in second run syndication in the two thousands when
the show garnered its cult following, and I think that
was also led by the rise of the Internet, forums,
chatrooms and fan fiction. I think we need an extra
brain for this interview, so we're going to bring on
a brand new nineties TV baby, miss Anna Shekel. I

(03:11):
have known Ana since she was but a wee babe.
She is the daughter of dear friends Benita and Nick,
and she is a big Xena fan and may in
fact be a Xena expert.

Speaker 5 (03:22):
Anna is a visual artist who graduated from Drew University
with a double major in Studio Art and Shiny Studies
and a minor in art history.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
She is an incredible versatile artist who lives in Pasadena.
She makes art, she plays D and D with me,
and she works as a shop instructor at Art Center
College of Design, teaching students how to properly use tools
and techniques necessary to create their projects.

Speaker 5 (03:48):
Welcome to eighties TV ladies, Anna, thank you so much.
Before we bring on mister R. J. Stewart, let's talk
about your relationship with Sena Warrior. Princess.

Speaker 3 (03:58):
Yeah, Z.

Speaker 6 (04:00):
Princess is a show that I watched in the eighth
grade because I recently discovered I was gay and secretly
tried to watch every single gay thing I could get
my hands on. And I was a little nervous to
watch Xena because it was so everybody talked about it.
And then the second I saw the first episode, I

(04:20):
think she did like three backflips and kicked a guy
and then was like spinning on top of a guy's head.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
I was like, this is the greatest this is the
most incredible.

Speaker 6 (04:29):
Thing I've seen in my entire life, and then proceeded
to secretly watch it in my room. In its entirety,
how did.

Speaker 5 (04:36):
You first hear about it? Were there ads or were
you watching Hercules? Or do you remember how you first
heard about it? I just knew of it.

Speaker 6 (04:46):
In general culture, I feel like there are there's like
an episode of Will and Grace where they make a
Xena joke. There's like all these different little shows where
they refer to it in the context of lesbianism, and
I was like, oh, that is the show and yeah,
and then I watched it that it was awesome.

Speaker 2 (05:06):
So how many times have you watched that you watched
every episode?

Speaker 6 (05:10):
I've watched every episode probably six to ten times all
the way through.

Speaker 3 (05:17):
Okay, so you know this show very very well. I
know the show very very well.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Well.

Speaker 6 (05:21):
I know this show very very well. For a person
who is not writing down the plot of every.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
Episode and who's not like a TV person, yeah, I
get you know.

Speaker 5 (05:31):
So, do you have any favorite episodes, ones that particularly
speak to you I find particularly entertaining or.

Speaker 6 (05:38):
Wow, there were a lot. I think it depends. I
feel like my friends and family have told me that
I should compile the many playlists that these would trickle
down into. But I think it depends on what you're
looking for. There's some really fun, campy episodes. There's some
really serious episodes. I think one of my favorite episodes
is I don't remember the name of it, but bas

(06:01):
you find out that Xena that all of the soldiers
that were supposed to do all the Spartan soldiers that
were supposed to fight in the pass of Thermopylae actually died,
and so Zena has to fight off the entire army
by herself, which in itself is like kind of campy
and weird and is a testament to how powerful Xena is.

(06:27):
But then there's also this moment where a spoiler if
you haven't seen the show that came out in nineteen
ninety five, there's there's a scare that Gabrielle is going
to die, and so then there's a lot of heartfelt
stuff there where Gabrielle's like, go on without me, and
she's like, why would I do that? And so all
of that was, yeah, very sweet and very poignant.

Speaker 5 (06:49):
Are there any particular guest performers on the show that
you like or recurring characters that you like? Really?

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Well?

Speaker 6 (06:57):
Yeah, I feel like, well, first of all, I think
any one who just identifies as a general nerd will
immediately recognize Carl Urban, who is one of the few
actors that they cast twice as like two important people
and kind of just hope you won't know. He plays
Cupid and then later Julius Caesar, and he has wildly

(07:21):
different haircuts and they don't think anyone's gonna notice, So
that's really fun. I think probably a basic fan favorite
is everybody loves Bruce Campbell playing Autolocus, and that's that's
really enjoyable. Yeah, yeah, but it's really funny. I feel
like I don't know if it's a it's an industry

(07:43):
thing or if it's a New Zealand thing, but if
you watch zena any other show based in or around
New Zealand, you will recognize all of these actors. I
feel like I watched another Sam Raimi fantasy show back
in high school and I was like, I know all
of those people.

Speaker 3 (08:03):
I've seen all of those people before.

Speaker 6 (08:06):
It's awesome. I love that Lucy Lawless is from New
Zealand and puts on an American accent in a show
that's based in Greece. That's that's so good.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
All right, Well, are you ready to meet r J Stewart?

Speaker 6 (08:21):
Yeah, I'm stoked.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Let's do it, okay.

Speaker 3 (08:25):
R J.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Stewart started in eighties television as story editor and writer
on one of our favorite eighties TV ladies show, Remington Steele.

Speaker 5 (08:34):
RJ wrote season one episode thirteen, A good Night's Steal
and season one episode sixteen, Steal Crazy. After all these years.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Rja worked on almost two hundred episodes of television, creating
several shows including Man of the Year with James Gardner.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
He has a very.

Speaker 2 (08:54):
Cool novel which came out in twenty twenty four, the
post apocalyptic novel Crazy Hawk, And it was very good show.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
It's fantastic. It's really really fantastic.

Speaker 5 (09:05):
The world building he does in creating this post apocalyptic environment.
This it's it's really great. And lots of great female
characters in the two, including.

Speaker 3 (09:16):
The lead, Yes, and a horse that I liked.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yes, Dan Danny. So fiction is not as appealing as
nonfiction to me anymore. But you said it was great.
You read it fast, like we knew we were doing
this interview, and like the next.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Day you're like, oh, yeah, it was great.

Speaker 7 (09:35):
I was like, what, I have to find out what happened,
and so I was like, okay, I got to get it,
and I got it, and I started reading the book.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
But then I walk and like to listen to stuff.
So I listened to the audiobook and it's very The
actress that reads it is very very good. So I
highly recommend.

Speaker 5 (09:55):
And yes, in other words, we are recommending whether you
want to get the audiobook whether you want to read it.
It's it's going to be a great time. It's a
fun story.

Speaker 3 (10:03):
It's fun.

Speaker 2 (10:04):
I'm now on the hopeful post apocalyptic novels. It's hard
to find them. I think that are a little bit smart.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Yeah, and this one's on the hopeful side. I think
it ends on the hopeful.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
It's pretty brutal, but it's yeah, all right, anyway, let's
get him out here.

Speaker 3 (10:26):
All right, we're in here.

Speaker 5 (10:28):
We are so excited to have him on the show
to talk about our first nineties TV lady show as
well as his career in television and writing. Welcome to
eighties TV Ladies, mister r. J.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Stewart. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (10:43):
We are so excited to finally get this one done.
We've had to reschedule a couple of times, and you
came up from the San Diego area, so thank you
very much. And it's always fun to have people in person.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
So thanks you. I agree that's the way to do it.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
I'm would just like to start with kind of what
made you want to be a writer, because clearly that path.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Yeah, the uh, my father was a sergeant and the
Air Force sergeant Kenneth eg Stuart and uh he uh
would go on a tourist of duty in Ammigia Way
for a while, and he used to send me letters
and in the letters would be a letter from my mother.

(11:28):
This is back in the day, you know. Let's we
actually actually wrote letters and uh uh and they would always,
not always, but frequently be a story. He would write
about my favorite characters. It would be, uh, Mickey, I
like Mickey Mouse in that world, and I like the
Peanuts stories. So he would write one or the other,

(11:49):
and then eventually he started, you know across the you know,
they would cant fiction right exactly, and then it would
be you know, and then Snoopy runs in and Goofy's
chasing them. So I that was when I was, you know,
a little boy. I was six seven, eight years old,
you know, and so I h the idea of storytelling,

(12:13):
the idea that you could make up your own story,
you know, is something that was in my head pretty
early on. And then when I was in junior high
they call it today, we were stationed Greece. You remember,
my dad's in the Air Force. Yeah, so we're on
the Isle of Crete and our teacher was named mister Csaiuna,
and he said, I'll give you extra credit if you

(12:34):
write a short story. So I wrote a short story
every week for the rest of the year. And after
a while he said, you know, I'm not getting extra credit.
B I said, no, just tell me what you think.
And I know he didn't read it. And I ran
into one of those stories recently going through it, and
you know what, they read like a fourteen year old

(12:54):
read him. I wrote it and so there's no there's
no gems there. But anyway, the the that was the
beginning of my writing. Then in college, I was in
that I always thought of myself as an actor. But
I wrote a play that got produced and and it
was about Native Americans. It's called Even the Eagle Dies

(13:17):
because I had real good friends in the Native American
community and so I dramatized my relationship with them. But
when we moved to Hollywood, my wife and I, I
was going to be an actor. That was my idea
to be an actor, and uh, I started collaborating with
people though, you know, not becoming a movie star or a

(13:39):
TV star right away, I thought, you know, and I
had friends who were writing. I collaborated with a few
of them on different screenplays, and eventually started writing on
my own. And the first screenplay I wrote on my
own got me the job on Rhymings and Steel. What
was that screenplay? It's called Good Company, and it was
it was the classic write what you know the script

(14:01):
because I was I was working with the job I
had was a team star. I was a delivery guy
around Los Angeles. Clinice would set in my car one
time because sometimes that if it was just artwork or
something sends you in a little Honda and Cliniast would
send up a car. And so the screenplay was about

(14:22):
my life doing that, delivering. You know, I want to
be writer delivering stuff in Los Angeles. That cliche of
write what you know it's a little tricky because but
I always say, remember your imagination is something you know too,
So it doesn't really have to be about your everyday
life because that would be a bunch of boarding things.

(14:45):
But you know, like I could just as well have
written about a guy who delivers to space stations or planets,
you know what I'm saying. But you know, take it,
take you know, but bring the idea of a driver
to it. That kind of stuff. So they just loved it.
Glenn Karen Lee's Lotov, Michael Gleason. These are the people
that were doing the eighties show.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
Yes, Remington Steel. We have covered it on our It
was in our first season we talked about Remington Steel.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
Okay, well, we're going to get to women characters. I
write and remember the premise of Remids Steele Laura Holt
Child the Remiss Steele. Well, Laura Holt has a detective agency,
but she's having a hard time to get getting work

(15:36):
because of the prejudice at the time. He gets hiring
a female detective right, which probably was real. I mean,
I don't know if it'd be real today, but probably
was real. And so she decides to get a front
for the agency. Who's this hollow suit name. We don't
know what his name is. She gives them the name
Reminge Steel. Isn't that right?

Speaker 2 (15:56):
Well, she makes up the name Remington Steel and there's
no person there, Yeah, until some guy shows up saying
their Remington Steel. And then that's the pilot rights this.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Guy exactly, and so so right from the beginning, I
was right, you know, and I love the I thought
that was a great concept. And Stephanie was what Stemphanie's
Embliss is a wonderful actress and a very kind, loving
person and uh, Peerce was so charming, so charming. You know,
this is before the show aired up meeting these people

(16:29):
like oh yeah, and uh he uh uh he used
to love to conflirt with my wife. They're both Irish
and so there are a lot of a lot of
stuff going on there because my wife would come come
visit me and stuff and uh uh. So the they
showed me the pilot. Okay, you know, they hired me

(16:51):
and then brought me in a story editor and showed
me the pilot. One am I, They say, you know,
tell us the truth. What do you really think? It
just be totally honest. You already got the job, you know,
And I said, well, it's great because I was very impressed,
but you know, I got to write more for that
guy who's planning that. That wasn't me being a genius.

(17:16):
That's what the whole world thought. A couple of weeks later,
you know, when it aired. You know, see what I'm saying,
and uh and uh and they they were saying that, yeah,
because they were dealing with that issue.

Speaker 4 (17:28):
You know.

Speaker 3 (17:28):
It's the studio was already giving him notes. Pierce is
so cool, got to write more for him.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
Well, he's the mystery, yeah, you know, like and and
we're just I think it was so hard for female
driven shows that were popping up in the eighties, particularly
a lot like this, to stay focused on the woman.
It was just hard.

Speaker 5 (17:51):
But his name, the character, his character name was in
the title of the show. Yeah, so I could you know,
there's all all these I could see all these pressures going.

Speaker 3 (17:58):
But it was so perfect because that's what the show
is about.

Speaker 2 (18:02):
It's such a The show itself is a metaphor for
what she's done, which is, no one would hire me.
I made up a guy, and everyone will hire me now,
and I just have to keep the guy, the pretend guy,
somewhere out there in front of me. And then when
the real guy shows up, he takes over everything, and.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
Of course played out in reality. She came into my
office one day and said, Argie, I feel like I'm
the pack meal for the plot. Why does peers get
all the fun stuff? And I said, because people are
cruel to me.

Speaker 5 (18:36):
No, I oh, I was, you know, I was so
low of ittool.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
Like this was above my playgrade. I think she was
hoping to enlist an ally, you know, and I was.
I was. I was totally an ally of hers. But
but Peers should come down and charm and charm my
pants off too. So that was a that was a
complicated situation. Do you know who Peers process is? I

(19:06):
have not seen mom Land.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
I haven't.

Speaker 3 (19:08):
I haven't either. Yeah, our son loves it. He thinks
it's great.

Speaker 2 (19:13):
Well, so so you're starting on this show that that
does kind of have an amazing trajectory. It becomes pretty
known pretty quickly, and it's got this hot, like this
hot premise and a hot young cast, and you get
a lot of great people, like in your episode. One
of your episodes you wrote is Moonlighting. It's a uh

(19:38):
at last Beasley and Annie Potts. Yeah, yeah, did you
get to that was like the flashback one. I think
still crazy, steal crazy.

Speaker 3 (19:50):
You know, we're going to into this a lot. I'm
not sure I remember which one.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
We ask a lot of our guests.

Speaker 3 (19:58):
But I remember Annie Annie. It was cool.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
And then there was also a young Sharon Stone I
think in that episode.

Speaker 3 (20:04):
Really yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Again, it's very early on, but that was the fun
thing about Remington is a lot of people ended up
on that show. That and Moonlighting had a lot of
guests that you were like, Oh, that person, that person,
that person.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah. I went to the Xena convention recently to sell
books and there was a room with a bunch of
people sitting around, you know. You know, I think it
really had brought a special access to us to them,
and I went into this gentlemen. They asked me questions
about episodes, and they I think they thought I was
being evasive for some because my answer constantly was they

(20:43):
don't remember that and some of this. One girl was
obsessed about stage direction. She said, why did this character
move over there? Then?

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Oh, my.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
Not only do I not remember the stage direction, I
don't remember the scene. I don't remember of the episode. Yeah,
we won't hold you accupul.

Speaker 5 (21:06):
Yeah, there's stuff we viewers sometimes forget.

Speaker 3 (21:10):
But they got upset with me. Oh that's not that's
not an honest answer.

Speaker 5 (21:16):
I guess, Well, we viewers because because we have a
tendency to watch and rewatch and rewatch shows that I
really love and pick up on all sorts of things
and think that maybe sometimes there's there's a reason for
something that just wasn't what they were perceiving it to
be and it's not. But obviously that's not always the

(21:41):
case with writers. You probably don't go back and rewatch
a lot of the things. I met Kirk Douglas, you know,
in fifties sixties. He was the guy and there was
a movie I Love Coloni on the Brave and he's funny.
Here at a party with my wife and I and Kirk.
I'm in the kitchen. You know, this wonderful going to

(22:03):
meet Kirk Douglas.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
You know, he walks into the Michael Douglas's house and
and he walks into the kitchen. He says, I hear
you're a Willie Mays fan. And it was like my
wife was working on him because she was saying, he's
a big fan of yours and he loves you and
Willie Mays and so so. So he said, I was
at Willie Mays's first game. So we sat down and

(22:27):
chatted and and uh uh he said, so uh here,
you're a fan. You know, he was kind of milking
it a little bit and I said, you know, yeah,
I can name your your characters Midge Kelly and John W.
Burns and Paris Pittman. And he said both man, and

(22:51):
it was there was a Crooked Man, which was kind
of an obscurity Kirk movie. And then and then I
I there was a move famous scene and all the
other where he's sort of waiting for the abuse of
cop to come beat him out, and I said that
was it was George Kennedy and you were just perfect
in that. And he's saying that they want to shoot him. Yeah,

(23:12):
so you know, he doesn't watch the even though that's
he said, he said that's his favorite movie. Spilberg has
said that's one of his favorite movies.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
But you know he did he didn't know it like
I knew it, you know, yeh, yeah, it's you know,
and that's the fandom in television can get pretty strong.
And it was one of the things that made Zena
sort of become the cult status.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
Oh absolutely, it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Before we get to Zena, I want to go back
to the book for a second because I want to
talk about what that writer instinct for making stories made
you want to write a book.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Okay, that's a great one. Ill you know, you hear
people talk about you know, I don't like retirement. Now
that I'm retired, I don't like it, you know. I mean,
I love retirement. I got horses. I got horses, and
I got I start shooting black powder guns as if
you read the you know, I bought a ranch in

(24:09):
San Diego County. I just started this new part of
my life. And I'd say for ten years, I was
just a horseman and a trail rider and this loveless
horse Danny and Danny, you know. I dedicate the book
to Danny. It's a real life horse, you know, and
uh he he died in twenty twenty one. And I

(24:33):
guess the simple if I was going to fail, like
I say, and that's when I decided to write the book.
But I had decided that I had. I had this
this whole new world of experiences I never wrote about.
And I'm a writer, you know, so so I started
thinking of a novel and well, unfortunately our daughter was
diagnosed with stage four cancer in the midst of that.
So I didn't you know, I had had like a

(24:55):
zero draft and then we were just very much uh
take yeah, and she passed in twenty eighteen. And it
was really covid. I mean, I mean, I know you
hear this a lot, you know, it's really COVID.

Speaker 6 (25:09):
This is that.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
Hey, you know that book that I started before for
the Lorrie got Ill. I wonder if that still works
for me. I went back and looked at it and
had to throw some stuff out, but I said, that's
my work. And then I finished it in twenty twenty three.
Maybe no, I think twenty twenty two. But boy, the
learning got self publishing was. I thought, you know, I

(25:30):
had started here, that self publishing was a real thing.
It wasn't like the guy pulling up at the book
fair with the books in his trunk. Now there was
a whole world of self publishing, you know, And I thought,
why don't I do that? But it was hard. It
was a steep, steep learning curve, a steep learning curve.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
We're all now marketers, and like you, starting a podcast
is a whole learning curve.

Speaker 3 (25:51):
Yeah. There was a moment when I when the book
was released, and I realized, I have no idea how
about marketing. She probably did a little research about marketing.
I released the book, but but I finally didn't sell
some books. And you know, it's been interesting. The original
thing was to capture my life, the valley I live in,
and that writing world but the closer was Danny passing

(26:16):
and and just sort of death. And because because of
her daughter dying and just just sort of death, you know,
it was sort of a subject.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
And yeah, and so Danny is a horse, is a
is a character in the book, and is sort of
the hero horse of the of the hero lady. And
so your horse also had one eye or was blind? Yes, yes, yes,

(26:43):
oh you heard that from the I think I did
read it.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
I do a little I did fix onize a little bit,
because I do believe it helps you your imagination a
little bit if you if you don't if you fix
onize a little bit. And my horse was Palomino, and
uh and uh Danny and I here I have him
as a buckskin. In two thousand and twelve to thirteen,
my failure comes in and says, you've seen his eye.

(27:09):
You know, he's out the ferrier. He does shoes and stuff, horseshoes,
and uh, what do you mean? It's it's something wrong
with it. And I come out. It's like bulging out
like this, and I had to turn out to sea disease.
I'm not going to remember the name of it. But uh,
and he lost his vision in that but he was
always he was better. He was everybody was jealous of
that horse. This is a great horse. I got more

(27:31):
credit for being a good horseman because of that. That
that horse that I deserve because he was just amazing.
It's true that you need to have a good horse.
You don't know what the horse is going to do.
You need to have a good horse which you like,
and once you have a good horse, you like. I
would say horseback riding is the most wonderful hobby you
can do. A trail riding. I do trail rinning. I

(27:53):
wasn't doingdressage or jumping or anything. So that's so cool
and so that Yeah, so that's what this book was
many Well, you know right on the cover was, by
the way, another terrific person that this is. This is
a woman named Lydia Puccetti who designed the cover. Yeah,
she just I thought she did a great job.

Speaker 5 (28:12):
Where did did you get the idea for this book?
I mean, it's it's not it's I don't know that
it's I don't read a lot of this subject. I
don't know if it's a big genre or something, but
I think.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
When I was in college, I read a book called
Kentigill for Liebowitz and uh uh the uh. In that book,
it's post apocalyptic and the post spuggles out there is
a nuclear bomb, I mean nuclear war that have wiped
out everything, and the first character you meet is a
monk living out in the desert and all of civilization's gotten,

(28:46):
you know. So it's really not very much like this
book at all. But the one thing that I liked
about it he was fascinated trying figure out what the
world was like before the holocaust, right, a nuclear holocaust
and the so I you know, I was playing with
that idea. I said, you know, well, rather than have

(29:08):
it a thousand years in the future and everything we
wept out, what if there's all kinds of tantalizing clues around,
you know, and you see what she does. You know,
she's trying to figure out what was the cloud? You know,
it was the cloud and the sky and stuff, and
you know then then and then of course choosing the
main character be a woman kind of fit everything I do,
and uh, and then I just started building it around

(29:29):
my valley and stuff like that. So it was the
charming thing about the post of bacal World for me,
is you can do two things at one time. You
can create a new world that you have fun with
that and hopefully the reader does too. And then secondly
you can comment on our world, you see, because you
know they're discovering what our world was.

Speaker 5 (29:50):
I was fascinated by the world you came up with
and how you incorporated and pulled in things now and
maybe how things might eve after the mature that.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
That that that has a lot to do with the horses,
because I was thinking at different times when I was
just so into you know, doing you know, eight hour
horseback rides and stuff like what if we had to
ride to get supplies and stuff? What if we, you know,
if the only way to get up to LA was
a horseback ride riding and so that, And then when

(30:22):
I started thinking about this, like saying, hmmm, you know
what if what if the law of the world goes away?
I was determined. That was one of my pet peeves
is some post apocalyptic things, even in the near future,
so much has disappeared, like there'd be some things that maintained,
you know, people would remember how to build stuff. And
you know what I'm saying, it's like, how do you
think we got here to begin with, you know people,

(30:44):
so I wanted there'd be slivers of the technology that's
still around, like Jube as a photographer, and uh and
of course the bees are dedicated into getting getting reviving
the technology, and you know, the worst, the worst possible,
the worst part of the worst parts of it and
uh uh and then the the the trogs hated technology

(31:09):
and so it was the worst and you know, so anyway,
that's that's uh, that's part of it. I don't know
if the answered that question absolutely.

Speaker 5 (31:18):
I mean, it's I found that to be just really
fascinating because it made sense to me that these factions
would break off and would go in the directions that
they went. There wasn't anything about it that felt false,
if you will, in terms of where we are now
and where things could devolve, if you will. Yeah, so
I was I was just fascinated by by all of

(31:40):
that and that that was just amazing.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
Well, you think that's great to hear the future tribalism is. Yeah,
tribalism gone crazy a while, all right, but back to
the eighties.

Speaker 5 (31:57):
Okay, okay, it's time for a break, but we'll be
right back with more r J and Anna and Zina.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
And we're back.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Let's go.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
So you you are on Remington Steel and and then
do you leave to do movies or do you leave too?

Speaker 3 (32:20):
I left to work with Glenn Karen. He eventually went
on to do Moonlight, but I and my wisdom, I
went on to do other things Moonlighting. Yeah, yeah, no, No,
he called me. I worked the He had two uh pilots,
and they used to those days, used to do backup

(32:41):
scripts for pilots, and I was his backup script writer
for each of these pilots, and they write them and
and uh uh and so they didn't go. And so
I thought, well, he's brilliant writer, because think Karen is
an amazing writer, thinking the way maybe he does sometimes
that I get the series on to go take my chances.
So I started, and then he calls me and says,

(33:04):
maybe I called him, And he says, uh got uh
he got I think I got it this time. Bruce
willis Sybil Shevard. You know, it's like, oh god, yeah,
But I heard that he was kind of this way
with everything he had to write at all. So I
I don't think I would have been that happy on
that show. Although been a great credit. But he he

(33:26):
needed to write a write on.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
And so when were you When was it like, oh,
this guy writes great women. When did that start to happen,
because it feels like that was something you started being
brought in for.

Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, you know, I just competed hard for those those opportunities.
And I don't remember anybody was saying he's the one
because he rich and there's that thing of wanting to
get a woman to write a woman, you know, so
that I had that a little bit of a hurdle there.
But I was just attracted to those kind of things

(34:02):
and fought for him. And certainly when when my agent
sent me the video of Lucy on Hercules playing a villain,
I said, you know, is he a martial artist or something?
She was so believable, so convincing, and uh and said,
well you know she's an actress who learned martiall. So

(34:25):
so that that was something I really wanted bad and.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
So you you went after Well they.

Speaker 3 (34:31):
Were offering it to me, so, I mean, and he
was surprised, he was thinking I was, you know, he thought,
you know, you know Galus runing around the leather and stuff.
You know that at that point, I don't even know
if i'd heard about Gabrielle yet there's an idea, and
he thought maybe I would be too cheesy for me,
but I'm going to pat myself on the back. I

(34:52):
immediately saw that as a cool project.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
So that's great. So you were brought in to be
to try to figure out how the pilot and show would.

Speaker 3 (35:01):
Work for right, right, right, there was an outline already
for the pilot, and I worked off that outline. And
it was one of these things where it was a
mutual agreement that I would write the script, they'd pay
me for the script, and if it didn't work, we
go our own ways. And I felt that way too,
because if they're not digging out my thing, I don't

(35:24):
want to do it. And then and they didn't want
to get saddled with somebody who couldn't write that. And
I was I was in uh, I was out shopping
and h this was before cell phones, but I think
this was carphone days. You know, we had car phones.
And I called home and my wife said, rub tappricole,
and I said yeah. He said, he said he's very

(35:46):
pleased because he had read the script. And I said, Okay,
I know what I'm doing. For a while because that
was they already had an order of twenty shoe on
the air. So I was head writer of a show
with trying two on the air, like whoa, And I
love the idea, you know, So I mean, you know,
of course there are bumps and bruises along the way.
I mean, doesn't immediately. It was the first sweeps, the

(36:08):
November sweeps of it's debuted in September. I'm asking you
because I think you know it is September of nineteen
ninety five, and we were all kind of insecure and conflicted,
you know, and then November sweeps, we just we outperformed Hercules,
and you know, just we were them. Yeah, we truly

(36:29):
were the number one syndicated show. The publicist once told
me that you always say you're the number one show.
Everybody says that. But anyway, that was and so that
was it was that changed my life, you know that,
I really did change my life that and I loved it,
you know, And I gave me a leught dough so

(36:50):
I could be a retired guy. Yeah, a horseman.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
I was just going to say, so, so you're the show.
Where did you guys shoot?

Speaker 3 (37:02):
Did you shoot in New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yes, Oh, Anna knows that I should ask Anna. Yeah,
and Zach, maybe we should have Anna asked some questions.

Speaker 6 (37:10):
Oh, I don't have that many prepared, but I guess
right off the bat. How does it feel to have
written a cult classic? A lot of shows just you know,
kind of paid off into the etherby.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
Yeah, there's I don't I have no memory of doing
this interview, but there's something on YouTube of me saying,
like just two years after the show, me saying, you know,
at first I thought it was going to be a
cult classic, and then it faded. I don't know what
I was thinking two years later that I would know
anything but the and then but now I noticed a
lot of a lot of talk on it. Well, here

(37:44):
we are, what twenty how many is it's been twenty
Was this the debut? It's been twenty thirty years the
debut of the Babe. Yeah, thirty and twenty five cents.
I went off the air and now like it go classes.
I went to that Scenic convention and uh, and it

(38:05):
was just so great to say so many people came
up to me and thanked me for and I'm thinking, Gee,
this is great. Why didn't I come more often. Steve
was so kind to me because he Steve Searushoe you
guys know him, and he had a he had paid
for a while of tables and he just let me
sit at the table and sell. It didn't turnam anything,
and uh sel my book can. I sold all my

(38:27):
books that I had so it was fun and signed
them and I met so many people who were so
passionate about the show. Was really lovely. I loved it.
I'm uh well, you know, to say I should have
gone more, you know, I wouldn't have had that experience.
You know, it wouldn't have been such a wonderful experience
if I was there all the time. You know, you know,

(38:48):
uh Steve, Steve's like you know, he's that's his society,
you know, it's his world, so he thrives there. But
for me it was I'm not saying I was surprised.
I didn't. I didn't expect people to ignore me or
any but you know, it was very you know, people
came up, younger people, younger people, uh probably younger than
you would come up and say your writing has means

(39:12):
so much to me, and I want you to know,
like really pointed, I want you to know how much
we appreciate you. I said, Oh, that was worth the
drive up. That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:26):
No, writer likes to hear it that.

Speaker 6 (39:33):
I did not know that Xena conventions were still going.
I feel like the last time I looked it up
when I wanted to go in high school, they had
been canceled.

Speaker 3 (39:42):
That's the creation. I guess does that because they called
me for that and said it's the last one. You
want to come to this one? And we actually it
was a good reason we were going to go on
on trip and uh, and so I said, sorry, I can.
That's too bad.

Speaker 6 (39:56):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
So I said, see, I missed the last thing and
that was probably have fun. Hello, Uh, did you want
to come to this one? I said, you know, I
missed the last one, so you might have got into
some of that marketing gimmick.

Speaker 6 (40:18):
It's really cool. You wrote the majority of the early episodes,
including the pilot, And then I did read an interview
that you had on woosh dot com, my favorite Xeno
fan site, and you also wrote you wrote a lot

(40:39):
of the pivotal episodes, like a lot of the the
ones that really kick off, mostly for Gabrielle, but a
lot of the big moments that kind of steer them
in their next arc of their story. And I guess
my question is, were you kind of like the ringer?
Did they like call you in when they were like, Okay,

(41:01):
a big change is going to happen in the series.
We want you to be the one to write it all.

Speaker 3 (41:06):
Well, Uh, I used to want to write them all.
I did want to write them all and uh and
Rob would laugh and say, well you can't, you know,
we you know, we got this writing staff and stuff.
And he was right, because I'm not David Kelly you
know this, or Glenn Charron, who there are people that
have have to write it all and they can, you know.
But I if I had to write every episode, they

(41:27):
would have broke me. So, you know, Steve really came
through in that first season. I mean the whole time
his area came through. But he really saved us that
first season. But able to like writing subscripts, it didn't
need a lot of work because you know, from my
point of view, when the script comes in the and
it doesn't work, you know that means uh, no weekend
you know here on it. But as far as the

(41:50):
ones that were juicy and I wanted them. I had,
you know, it wasn't all powerful, but I had enough
power there as head writer, I could I could pick
the ones that look good, and of course a couple
of them were my concepts, like the ecalisto serious, you know,
and that one was I felt really strongly about because
I felt that, you know, the whole charm not charm

(42:12):
maybe it was the wrong word, but the whole cook
of the series is this was I believe the only
time in history that in television history where a villain
and out balls and of all villain, this isn't just
like a charismatic bad bad girl. Now, this was a
real bad woman had got her own series right, and
it just felt like somewhere along the line, we have

(42:34):
to pay that off and both both both conceptually and fun,
but also in morality wise. I mean, she got away
with being a war criminal really, and so you know,
I came up with the idea of what if there's
a person out there whose life was ruined by one
of her raids and that person has evolved into a horrible,

(42:58):
uh person? And when and what triggered it? What led
her to that was what what what Sena did to
her family? And then then we cast Hudson like and
everything worked.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
And so how often were you in New Zealand? Did
you go a lot?

Speaker 3 (43:19):
I went every year for a couple of weeks. The
last year I was there for about six weeks.

Speaker 2 (43:28):
And where and I'm sure seeing people know this. Where
where on the islands did you film?

Speaker 3 (43:36):
Yeah? Both both the in the China episodes. Down for
the China episodes, we went to the South Island to
get some of the great thing. I mean, I'm sure
they did it more than that, but that's one time
I went with them over there to the Southland, but
mostly in the North Island and uh Oakland area. It's
such a beautiful country.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
I got to go once it really is.

Speaker 3 (43:59):
It really is beautiful right on it.

Speaker 6 (44:02):
What else are you going to or well, my other
question was kind of answered already, which was just kind
of generally I am a fan, but not in the
industry so to speak. So I was wondering how much
power you had as a writer, like are you constantly
communicating is there a big overarching story or how much
are you allowed to say this is what I want

(44:24):
to happen to these characters?

Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah, Rob and I would sit down at the beginning
of every season, try to work out the art for
the whole season. And you know I had actually kind
of this throughout what about Roseberry Baby one time? And
that became that all thing, and uh, you know, and

(44:45):
and he he had some pet things he wanted. He
wanted to do that those China China episodes. It was
like passionate about that and and I'm you know, I
wanted to write them because they were cool and so
U the uh it varied, but it was Rob and
I working it out together. And uh, he was definite.

(45:05):
If I don't think he ever told me I couldn't
do something I wanted to do. Maybe maybe maybe practicality wise,
he said it wasn't practical. Well, you know we did that.
You know where she would screw up the myths.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
She was going to say, how how much?

Speaker 3 (45:21):
What was it? What were your rules for for the mythology?
Because you got to do a lot of your own.
We were Steve, and I actually thought where there was something,
it is the case where it was an argument Rob,
but I give it to him. He was two hund
percent right, is that Steve? And he wanted to do
Julius Caesar right, And we were saying, well, we're in

(45:43):
the Greek world's going to be Alexander or something. Care
we could pick out a you know, and he said, no.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
It's gonna be us.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
We've kind of the there's a lot of tension there
and we we we surrendered and it turns out like
who would care, you know, we were doing we were
doing the Middle Ages later on, you know, like nobody
would care, nobody puzzle would get.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
I was going to say, and did you did that evolve?
Did you go, oh, we can kind of do whatever
we want, or did you did you?

Speaker 3 (46:09):
I think I was more concerned. I wanted to do
the you know, a a version of the Greek myths.
I didn't want to be slavery slavishly accurate to the
Greek myths. But well we never even tried that. But
you know, but you know, and one of the things
I loved writing is I love this that she's she's quoting,

(46:29):
She's she's talking about Oedipus and uh Gabriel in the
first episode in the pilot, and uh, you know, that's
where I would be like, we're gonna, we're gonna, we're living,
We're going to do a world, whether Greek myths are
really happening, and we're going to intercede, you know, and
penetrate their world every once in a while. But as
as it turned out, we did everything, We did all

(46:51):
the myths, and that was the right thing to do
it and it was a lot of fun doing it
that way.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Right, did you have any rules or did you you
can't do this?

Speaker 3 (47:02):
Liz and Rob used to say, no magic, and I go,
I don't know what they're talking about. I never under said.
What seems like a lot of what we did was magic,
but uh, that was not really not very very very
few rules. All right, let's talk about oh, hero protection,
that's what it was a big thing for us. We

(47:23):
were conscious of that we had a female lead. We
wanted to be careful that, you know, she had to
be just a little bit better than the men and
a thing although I was the voice of you know,
she's got to have her kryptonite, you know, and the
cryptote became galiesto and so you know, somebody that could

(47:44):
compete with her and endanger her if she's really just
you just know all the time, you know, and you know,
I mean, actually I like Jason Stathan movies. I'm a
kid at heart. I like exceous movies, but sometimes he's
just too good, you know, it's like, you know, so
it's helped if they're in jeopardy sometimes go ahead.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
So Gabrielle and her journey, did you know exactly where
you were going every season or.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
You know we started. Keep in mind there are two
kinds of well there's more than two, but there's I
think in a very broadway classifying movies about women empowerment,
there's two kinds of stories you can tell, or are
frequently told. There's the woman who is not empowered and
then becomes empowered, and then there's the woman who's already

(48:38):
empowered and how she handles the thing. Well, we had
both right there. You know, it was so rich to
her story. Gabriel story obviously became a thing about her
finding herself and her becoming empowered and becoming a formidable
person on her own and the and Manzino, of course,

(48:59):
was empowered of anything. She had to de empower a
little bit unempower because of you know, she had an
issue that that that that uh fortuitous thing that happened
that that Rob Rob sold the show to Tribune based

(49:21):
in the villain in the other thing that that that
gave it such a rich quality, such a rich quality.
So the you know, Sam Raimi wasn't involved with it
much really just said in a few meetings, but he
did say I remember a meeting where he said, got
to do the past, got to do the past, you know,

(49:43):
and you know that that she was a villain and
so so yeah, it that was the that was the
gravitas of the show, that she was once evil, now
she's good. And that's the way I saw it as is.
You know, she's shown a redeemer off too. I mean
we all do that. I mean we all make mistakes
and try to redeem ourselves, I hope, and the you know,

(50:11):
so it's a very relatable thing, although hopefully not not
many people are redeeming themselves for committing mass murders or stuff,
but hopefully not.

Speaker 2 (50:19):
But if they are, that's what they have, that's what
they want to themselves with.

Speaker 3 (50:25):
Hopefully they're redeeming themselves in prison. Something that.

Speaker 2 (50:32):
Working with Lucy Lawless, working with Renee O'Connor, how was.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
That just wonderful. You couldn't get too nicer people. They're
just so warm and and uh, just just great great,
great people. There's you know, I was thinking, not this interview,
but another interview I did a few months ago, I
should say, so I come up with something that humanize them,

(50:58):
so I'm not just saying all the time they're great people.
And you know, there were times that I got a
phone call or two from Lucy where she was complaining
about something about her character, and I don't think I
ever did with Renee, but really no, they're just nice
all the time. And it was it was wonderful, rewarding,
and the dailies were so great, you know, you know,

(51:20):
you know it's not always true, you know, the dailies
are I mean, I'll even admit to the first script
I wrote for Regen Steelee, I was a polled at
the dailies and everybody had to keep telling me there's
nothing worse than dailies, And there's nothing. It's never as
bad as the dailies, and it's never as good as
that first cut with when you have the music in it.

(51:40):
Those are two extremes you got to keep away with
because when you finally get the music and the sound
right and stuff, there's still a lot of editing to go,
probably making it shorter, but you're so relieved that it's
not that horrible thing you saw in the dailies, so
then you think, oh, hemmy. So at first it's like,
I'm you know, and got to hang myself. But by

(52:02):
the time I got to Zee and I was a
little more ready for that. But it was no problem
because it was Lucy and Renee were just so good
all the time, and it was just snow. And then
when I go down there, they're always so warm and
charming and and such good people.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
So now did they ever go okay? You know, there
were walking on the horse or whatever, you know, was
there some point where they were like, uh, this is crazy,
this is too crazy.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
I was. I don't remember it, but there was some
controversy with Renee's hair when she cut it short or nodding.
I don't remember what it was. Either she didn't want
it or she did and DROP didn't monitor to something
like that. But I I never heard, you know that,
I you know, when you're writing. I don't think I

(52:51):
ever mentioned hair length and any script I wrote, so
I could care less and she looked great either way,
you know, so I didn't, But there was there was
I remember some controversy about so, you.

Speaker 6 (53:01):
Know, maybe not in the context of Rene's personal opinion,
but I remember the lesbian following was very upset about
it because they it made Gabrielle more butcher than Xena,
and everyone was really upset about Oh wow, big, They're like,
they're not allowed to do that. Gabrielle is the more

(53:22):
feminine one, and it was.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
Wow, that was something. I mercifully I did not know that,
but I know there was something in the I would
tell you because that would be like a simple one
to give some textion to it. But I just don't
remember whether she liked it or didn't like it. I
think maybe she got the haircut and Rob was Yeah.

(53:48):
I think maybe that was it, but I don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Well, we have noticed in eighties and nineties television women's
hair is very important. There's a lot of discussion at
the network level. There was a lot of discussion in
Scarecromssus King when uh, when Kay Jackson cut her hair
and everybody freaked out.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Yeah so no, no, this is second hand, but I
thought it throws some juice at hey. Yeah, evidently k
Jackson was the hardest person to work with in the history.
Have you heard that about your Yes, I've heard different
writers who are like battles scar beat up and they
come in to Zina try to get work, and then
I'm going, and how was it working with k you know,

(54:31):
so of course I did. You know, that's total second
hand gossipy stuff.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
I know, so I throw it out there now it is,
it has come up, because it comes up a lot,
and and then there's that thing of like well but
in some ways, so was Glenn Gordon Karen or so
was you know, like it doesn't get quite as turned.
I think when it's men doing it, they're just being demanded.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
And I heard that after I left. Nothing new with me.
But you know, after the Peers u after the Remington
became big, price became difficult, and then after you know,
I remember what they did to him with the Bond. Yeah, yes,
evidently he was a handful of.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Bond Remington Bond.

Speaker 3 (55:20):
For the listeners who don't remember the he was offered
the part of James Bond a few years before he
actually started doing it, and NBC wouldn't let him out
of his Rams Steel contract even though when he got
the offer. This is what I understood. I was not
with the show at that time. But from what I understand,

(55:43):
they had didn't plan to make any more episodes, but
they still had him on the contract, so they made
a few two hour movies just to keep them on.
They made them come back the show. I'm standing in
line at a movie theater I wish I could remember
which I think it was in Burbank. And I look
over and there's Pierced and he's, I guess, with his

(56:03):
family or some and he you know, you know, you
can tell he recognized me, but he can't place it,
you know. So he walks over and he extends his
in and I said, r J Stewart, I was on
Remmington And he said, oh yes, r J. What are
you doing now? And now at that time, I was
doing features. I said, I'm going to some features here.
And the w was when that controversy was going on

(56:27):
with NBC and he did not like that. He was
very clearly on it. And I said, yeah, I heard
what NBC did. Do that's he said, oh yeah, oops
and uh and so uh anyway, so he but he
did very well though he did.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
It turned out okay, it all worked out, but it
was it was so I in my memory based on
what we learned when we covered the show. They had
canceled the show. Then it was announced he was going
to be and so then the reruns of the show
did so well because suddenly they're like, brought all this

(57:06):
attention to the show, and so then they're like, well,
we still have we technically can still pull it back,
and they pulled them everybody back. So Stephanie had been
cast as the female lead and RoboCop really and she
had to leave that show and she was fully cast.
It wasn't just an announced gossip. But yeah, So then

(57:29):
I don't think either of them were not thrilled to
come back for that. But yeah, but yeah, television, man.

Speaker 5 (57:39):
I'm sure many people have learned about that, learned from
that situation in terms of either when they make announcements
or what they have in their contract about being able
to get out of it or time, you know, timing
and all that other kind of stuff. So yeah, because
that was that was so unfair.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
I think to both of them at the end of
the day, that was a brutal I could I could see, yeah,
and I could see the tension in him. Yes, just
I'm trying to get bond. That's you know, this guy
who I barely remember his name is working in features
but I can't get and they offered me the art,
you know, and I can't get there. But he got

(58:16):
there exactly.

Speaker 5 (58:17):
He eventually eventually we need to play a violin for him.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Well he has had tragedians left, but he the his
career went very well. What what a what a cool guy.
What a cool guy? What a cool guy?

Speaker 2 (58:33):
And so all right, so let's go back to Zena
and Gabrielle for a minute, because there's there's a it's
a it's a buddy story, it's a friendship story, it's
a love story. Did you know what line you were
drawing for that female relationship?

Speaker 3 (58:54):
Uh no, but we were informed by by the audience
of it and uh and in the developing, the subject
to start becoming a part of story sessions, you know, like,
oh and this would be cool in uh the the
episode I wrote called uh Day in Life. I had
originally imagined them, you know in the old Westerns. They

(59:16):
they they they would would after a cattle driver something.
Uh they be uh uh get their their their tub,
their hot order tub, you know, and they'd be you know,
side by side, you know, Lee Marvin and somebody else.
I remember one with Glenn Ford, Jack Lemon and uh
the uh uh, And then we were going to go there,

(59:38):
but then I was writing and I said, what am
I doing? They got to be in the bathtub together, right,
So so we.

Speaker 5 (59:45):
We went that way.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
There was no question of that. But now it it,
you know, when they came to me and said, uh,
you know, this is a huge lesbian following, us said
oh cool, you know, let's let's see what we can do.

Speaker 5 (01:00:00):
Did you get any pushback from the studio or anything
at all?

Speaker 3 (01:00:03):
None, in the slightest the The studio was Universal, the
distributor was Cha Tribune, and neither one of them. They
just if it makes if the numbers are good, they
were fine with it. And uh so, yeah, no, no,

(01:00:26):
I didn't. I never heard it. Anyway. I think Rob
is probably good at keeping some of them away from us,
you know.

Speaker 5 (01:00:34):
So that's part of the job of the executive producer
to deal with a lot of that, you know, because
it has it is now kind of known that it
was this powerful show for lesbians.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
M hmm. Were they or weren't they? Am I I'm
allowed to ask that.

Speaker 2 (01:01:02):
Like I'm curious what you think. I'm curious. You know,
we're Xena and Gabrielle in a romantic, intimate relationship. Were
they in a gay relationship? What would you say today
to that answer?

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
I leave that up to the fans, and the fans
have decided after thirty years, thirty years this year of
when we first premiered, they're gay. There's no question they're gay.
I know that because I go to a convention. I
went to a convention this year where they celebrate them
being gay. It's held every year. I'm not saying everybody

(01:01:37):
that goes to the convention is gay, but I think everybody
is fine with them being gay. And I recommend everyone
go to that Zena convention because it's a beautiful thing
to see so many people who get so much meaning
out of that relationship between Gabrielle and Zena. It's really inspirational.

Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
Well, I'm curious, though, what it meant to you, because
I think it meant a lot to women to see
women female friendship is rare, close female friendship very rare
on television, and and obviously at the time, a same
sex relationship very rare, and especially lesbian. It meant something

(01:02:24):
to generations of people.

Speaker 6 (01:02:29):
I mean, it's interesting sort of what I was talking
about earlier in the in the intro is, I had
been on a quest to find anything that had two
women in love and kind of got answered, and so

(01:02:50):
I had seen things of that in a more commercial
or explicit way, which is to say, there are like
a handful of lesbian rom coms that existed back when
I was looking, not now they're a lot more. And
so while it was something that I was sort of

(01:03:12):
scouring for, I think I was just so charmed by
the show that it that while it was the inciting
incident to watch the show, it really took a back
seat almost immediately.

Speaker 3 (01:03:26):
That's another thing too, is that you gont to understand
where what was my job is to get the order
for the next season, then it's successful, And you know,
we weren't. We were looking at each episode what we
could do best to get the most eyeballs on our show,
and that's the way we went. And we had a

(01:03:48):
lesbian working on a show, Liz Freeman, who's probably my
well not probably, she's my best friend still working in
the business, and she was not going that direction at all.
She did not enthusiastically support anything like that, not that
we ever discussed that seriously because we were going episode
by episode and trying to, you know, worry about ratings

(01:04:10):
and getting that order for the next season and uh
and so were just one of the things I've seen
in different articles is different people have suggested it was discussed.
It was never discussed in the sense of they're definitively gay.
That was never There was never a meeting. I was
aware we're committing totally to them being having a gay relationship.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Well, and I think because it takes place in such
a flexible world, both historically and magically, like it sort
of fits a little bit to not answer all the questions,
But where was the line comedy wise, right, humor, because
there's there's a lot of humor, there's a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
Of like, well, with me, it was much further with
Rock what's this thing where she they they're trying to
get the sword out of the thing when we jump
to the Middle Ages, and then she comes in and
takes sort out and says it's a joke. It's a joke.
He says, nothing to do with the story. It's a joke.

(01:05:18):
Jokes are fun. So yeah, look, if when I I
did u, uh, rewrite on a comedic episode and uh
and then give it out. And I heard people laughing
in the other room. Fel great, and you know, so

(01:05:38):
you know I I I think when the one thing
that didn't work is really silly stuff, I thought they
it was. It was a point I didn't wasn't with
the show. I was working on Cleopatra and they did
a couple of shows. I don't know what the o
they're doing, you know, I have no idea what they
were doing. And they were attempted at comedy, you know

(01:06:00):
what I'm talking about.

Speaker 6 (01:06:01):
I think, so I don't.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
I can't remember what they were. But when I when
I came back to the show, I watched all the
episodes of I said, what the hell is going on
with that show? And he said it was your fault.
You weren't here to stop me.

Speaker 6 (01:06:20):
Yea, that is I feel like Zena is a pretty
you know, there are episodes that are really wacky, and
so it's like, oh, that's fun, that's campy. But to
this day, the episode Married with fish Sticks, if you
guys have never seen makes that's it feels like a
fever dream. Yeah, it was a crazy episode.

Speaker 3 (01:06:42):
Who gets the writing credit in it, and I don't know.
I don't know there's a j R.

Speaker 5 (01:06:52):
Stewart.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
So one of the other TV shows that you created,
A Man of the People, working with James Garner and
Kate Mungrew, I would just I just like both of
those actors.

Speaker 3 (01:07:08):
Yeah, they're both great. I mean, Jim was just the
hardest working guy he when we did that show. He
had a lot of problems with those legs, so that
we would limit it in how to do it. I
wrote it for as an hour dramatic and he wanted
to do a half hour schedules because of that very reason.
Kate and I share the same birthday April twenty ninth,

(01:07:34):
with we who listen to the people born him on
our birthday, Willie Nelson, Michelle Pfeiffer, Daniel day Lewis, the
Duke of Wellington, Jerry Seinfeld. Is that a loaded birthday? Wow,
that's a loaded birthday.

Speaker 6 (01:07:54):
Pretty good. It's a good day to be born.

Speaker 3 (01:07:58):
My granddaughter was born. Oh so yeah, you know we'd
make jokes about it. I really to this day, like
the script I wrote for the pilot a lot, even
the cutdown version and a half hour version that I
had to do over a weekend.

Speaker 2 (01:08:14):
By the way, some movies that I had questions about
you worked. You wrote Lovers, Partners and Spies, which was
directed by jan Eliasburg, who we have interviewed on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:08:26):
Do you remember that, yes, yes, absolutely, it was a pilot.
It was a pilot. Oh, okay, that was a pilot. Yeah,
worked with her in Mexico. Don't remember a lot about it. Well,
it was nineteen eighty eight. Yeah, during the writer show.
Oh that's what I remember. I'm down in Mexico and

(01:08:50):
it's a writer strike and of course I'm the writer
and they expect me to be making changes for the
writer's skills, telling me you cannot make changes. Okay. So
that was terrifying. That was very high stress because you know,
there's yeah, I mean and so one hand, you can
always use an excuse not to make a bad change,
knowing I can't. I can change. I'm sorry, but sometimes

(01:09:12):
I God, this needs to be made change.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:09:16):
And I took the strike seriously, you know, So it
was very that was tough. That's a tough way to
do it. And you know, people are you know when
I you know, simple things like we need to you know,
we need a different out here. I would just do
it on the set, you know, Oh, crucify me, you know,
for for for changing a line at the end of
one scene. But if they really wanted to, like, you know,

(01:09:39):
developed scene, I was really uncomfortable with that.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
Oh my God, all right, and God created a woman. Yes,
Working with Rebecca in the morning.

Speaker 3 (01:09:48):
Working with Rebecca was wonderful. I got to visit her
at the hotel Momont where she was staying, and we
went over the script several times, and U you know,
it's Rebecca's performance is the main reason to watch that movie.
The uh. She took them on fair criticism at the time.

(01:10:09):
I don't know why, but in retrospect she's very convincing
and of course incredibly beautiful and sexy and and that's
that's the reason I watched Singa Create a Woman. Working
with the deam was fun. He's a charming guy. He uh.
In some ways in the nineteen eighties, the movie seemed anachronistic,

(01:10:32):
even you know, for the nineteen eighties. It's interesting that
that today young people watch it, they kind of write
off that anachronism as that's of the nineteen eighties, you know,
and even though in the nineteen eighties it was an achronistic,
you know, in some ways. I mean, you know, Roger
Vadim was a giant in French cinema in the fifties
and sixties, and by the eighties. I don't know if

(01:10:54):
America was waiting for the next rojer vide movie. But
I talked to young people today who like it, and
some of them will love it, so, you know, I think,
and what they love is Rebecca Derney is definitely makes
it worth the price of emission.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Yeah, she's pretty sure me. You know, when you say anachronistic,
I mean there was also Roger Vedeen directed another movie
in nineteen fifty six called and God Creative Woman. But
it's a completely different that's right, it's a different story.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
Ebert said, I'd be you know, he said, I think
this is the This is Roger Ebert's talking. He said,
I believe this is the first time a title has
been remade by the original director, not the movie itself,
just the.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Title Amazon high with Selma Blam.

Speaker 3 (01:11:45):
Yeah. Now that's kind of a weird one because it
tested very well. But here's this is an inside Hollywood
h here you have to have the star locked up.
If you're going to do a pilot, and no matter
how charming and wonderful and cool the star may be,
if you don't have her, him or her locked up,

(01:12:08):
do not go down that road. Because we could have
gotten a series out of that. It was tested very
well and uh the but but we didn't have some
of locked up and her career was taken off. So
a big mistake.

Speaker 5 (01:12:22):
Oh my gosh, that seems that seems kind of normal
in terms of what would be done in terms of
deals for pilots and things.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Wow. A few arguments about that, all right?

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
And then the Rundown two thousand.

Speaker 3 (01:12:36):
Yes, that was the script I wrote for Warner Brothers.
Did they eventually person no universal perusin the uh and
it was my calling kind of script for many years,
you know. I mean I wrote the first draft in
uh uh eighty eight. I think you come right after

(01:13:01):
right after those strike, right after those strike. It would
be eighty eight eighty nine. That's when I was working
on it with Scott Ruden. You know, people love the
script when I turned it in, and I've kind of
disappointed didn't go anywhere. A long story short then back
and then in the the Rock appears in a movie

(01:13:24):
called The Mummy. He's and they're just so convinced he's
the next star. And so my two producers I know
very well. Unfortunately both of them have passed away now,
but Chris Chester and Karen Glasser were able to get
the script to the Rock and at that time, excuse me,

(01:13:47):
they got it to Vince McMahon this is that's right,
and he loved it and sold Rock Is this should
be your next movie. And so, h uh, the and
I had the script and turnaround, you know, a turnaround
is you know at a certain point when the when

(01:14:09):
the when the studios ignored your script enough, you the
writer gets it back. And so I made a sweet
deal out of that and became a pretty good movie.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
Part of the retirement, Yeah, part of the retirement.

Speaker 3 (01:14:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
That and Brasilia Rosario Dawson was in that. Did you
go on set for that?

Speaker 3 (01:14:29):
Yeah? I did go on set, but I never saw
her the days I was on set. I mean, that
was one of those obligatory things they had to let
me outset because I wrote the first draft and uh,
but she was never there. I met the Rock. Christopher
Walking's fun as always there. Yeah, Oh, this is a
story I got my our son. I got him a

(01:14:52):
job on I think because I knew both producers and
that to do so. He uh, he was getting the
cover sign by everybody on the show, which I have
hanging on my wall. You know that, you know of
the script when it was called Eldorado. That was my
title for it, Hildorado, And so everybody's signing it and stuff,

(01:15:14):
and and he goes up to walk in and he says, uh,
what is this for? He says, that's from for Orgie Stewart,
he's my stepfather, and blah blah blah blah blah. And uh,
he said, where's he?

Speaker 1 (01:15:31):
Uh?

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
He should be here, I said, I buy myself would
would tell it much better than I. The point is
that he was. He didn't like all the rewrites that
get bringing him, you know, so he signed up for
my script. You know, it's interesting I want to go
through that that. I look at that way once a while,
the thing with all the signatures on the zero dos,

(01:15:54):
and you know, and h it's amazing you can read
them all. And that's not true. All the time I
saw the thing from Rammings and Steel that everybody signed,
I can't read much.

Speaker 2 (01:16:07):
Oh my gosh, Anna, do you have any last I.

Speaker 6 (01:16:11):
Think, any last questions? Yeah, So I will just end
on a comment, which is that I extremely love the show.
It's my favorite show, so thank you for that. And
it has kind of going back to an earlier topic,

(01:16:31):
I think it's incredible that women are in every single role,
the hero, the helper, the villain. Is incredible. I feel
like you and your team have done incredible jobs or
an incredible job at writing characters that are women instead
of writing women characters. And thank you so much. It's
been really nice.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
By the way. The crazy that it also has a
almost every key character is a woman, YouTube being the exception.

Speaker 5 (01:17:05):
Well, do keep us posted on the progress towards getting
it made into a mini series.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
I would.

Speaker 5 (01:17:12):
I'm chomping at the bit to see it.

Speaker 3 (01:17:15):
I think I wrote it as a novel, so I mean,
if he gets that's icing, you know, that's that's it's
a distant success here. But I wrote it as a novel,
so that's why.

Speaker 2 (01:17:25):
And will you where there will be another novel or
there will be Thank you so very much, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
I really enjoyed it. You guys are really good at
this thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:17:36):
Yeah, we appreciate and appreciate you, you know, taking the time
to come up here and talk with us, And.

Speaker 3 (01:17:42):
It was not it was not stressful at all.

Speaker 2 (01:17:45):
It's really a delight and you are our first like
nineties TV Ladies, Yes, ladies character.

Speaker 3 (01:17:54):
So was the No, Lindsay Agne was the seventies, right,
she was seventy.

Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
So we definitely we've always said we're ready to go
to the seventies or the nineties because they're very informed
by or reforming of the eighties. But we tend to
stick to shows that are led by women. So an
eighties TV Ladies show and everybody kind of gets We

(01:18:20):
used to discuss it a lot in the early first
season of what it meant, and I feel like it's
where the woman drives the story. Is an eighties lady show.
All right, Well, thank you.

Speaker 5 (01:18:33):
Thank you, thank you both.

Speaker 2 (01:18:34):
Yes, Anna, thank you so very much for coming on
the show with.

Speaker 6 (01:18:40):
Us, having had a really good time.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
I was so delighted to have you join us. I
love our nineties TV babies. I don't know if you've
listened to any of those episodes of eighties TV Ladies,
but now you're officially a ninety TV babies as well,
so we might have to get you back on show
you some eighties show. We're going to see what you
can make heads or tails of. But I am you

(01:19:05):
know you're my daughter from another.

Speaker 3 (01:19:08):
Mother, nineties TV NEPO baby.

Speaker 2 (01:19:14):
And I was really glad when when this came up.
I was like, I have to get on this show
because I knew you knw Zina back and forth.

Speaker 6 (01:19:22):
Yes, thank you so much for the opportunity. This is
truly a once in a lifetime chance for someone who
loves the show.

Speaker 5 (01:19:28):
And I think it was clear that he really appreciated
how much you loved the show as well, so that
was that was really lovely to.

Speaker 6 (01:19:35):
See he really thought I knew more dates than I did,
but that was very kind of it.

Speaker 3 (01:19:43):
Anyway, thank you for coming on the show.

Speaker 6 (01:19:45):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
And here's a little trailer for the book that we
got from r J himself.

Speaker 8 (01:19:53):
Deirdre lives for one purpose, to get her sister back.
If she has to kill the kidnappers, that won't be
a problem. She's good at that. Crazy Hawk by r J.
Stewart in today's audioography. You can get the novel Crazyhawk

(01:20:13):
at Bookstore dot org or your neighborhood bookstore.

Speaker 2 (01:20:18):
You can listen to the book on Audible. It's narrated
by Katie Hageman and I highly recommend it. She does
a great job.

Speaker 5 (01:20:26):
You can find out more about r. J. Stewart at
IMDb and links will be in our description.

Speaker 2 (01:20:33):
Hey guys, we have one last show of Richard Adams
Paranormal Bookshelf Light in the Dark Tour. We're going to
be in Long Island, New York for a special performance
at a private home and you'll get to go through
a really fun haunted house before the show. It'll be Saturday,
September twenty seventh. Please join us. You can get tickets
at RHPB dot event bright dot com or off Richard

(01:20:56):
Adams Paranormal Bookshelf dot com website.

Speaker 5 (01:21:00):
As always, we hope eighty Stevie Ladies brings you joy
and laughter and lots of fabulous new and old shows
to watch, all of which will bring us closer to
being amazing ladies of the twenty first century.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
So pretty

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Into the City

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