Mike Nichols - Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? - A Film By...

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Robert. We've been friends for a long time and we
know a lot about each other. But I don't think
I've ever asked you this question. Have you ever attended
like an awkward dinner party or an awkward get together
where you were just like, please, dear lord, let me
find an excuse to go home.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Every family Thanksgiving ever, right.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Like, my family doesn't get that bad, Like they'll kind
of flare up and then it'll calm down, you know.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
No, No, we would see the relations that we would
only see once a year, and inevitably that it was booze,
and my uncle would become more and more charming and whimsical,
and my mother would get more and more hostile toward
one of her aunts that she despised. One year, she
threw a gim ledge into my aunt Lee or her

(00:48):
aunt Lea's my great aunt les face over an argument
and said, you've always been a badge and you're a bitch.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Now I've always wanted to do that, but not so
much to your aunt.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Well, I know it, well, I mean Lee was a bitch,
but anyway came in. But no, they are well the
good preparation for a movie we're gonna talk about today
because it was a very similar vibe where it's like
whimsical and funny. Oh my god, now the knives are out.
It did. Yeah, so yeah, Thankgiving. Always every time.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
Something about that turkey comes out, there's too many knives
on the table. I don't know, as you said. On
that note, let's talk about a film by Mike Nichols,
his nineteen sixty six underrated film Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf.

(01:59):
Welcome to be a Film by podcast. I'm Amber Lewis,
and I will be your host for this episode now.
On our previous Mike Nichols episode where we discussed the
movie Wolf, Jeff promised me that when Mike Nichols came
up again, I could pick the movie and dear listeners,
he lied, as all of you do. Our regular host

(02:22):
Jeff Johnson. We love him, but he loves to make
me watch movies that are uncomfortable and make me cringe,
and this one is no exception. So joining me to
discuss the worst dinner party in the history of dinner
parties is our expert in all things Disney, Broadway and

(02:44):
classic films, my dear friend, Robert Burnett, So welcome.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
Robert Buckle Oh yeah, I guess we got two of
the three. I mean, although we could count Disney if
we thought that the Who's a Fate of Virginia Wolf
was really to the two Who's Afraid of the Big
Bad Wolf like it was supposed to be and not
whatever they used and did. But yeah, sot my got
my Broadway down, got mailed movies. I'm in hog heaven

(03:09):
for this one.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
I knew you were gonna just be chomping at the bit.
So now, this was my first time watching this film,
and honestly, I had like literally actively avoided it. So
I've now watched it two times.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
To your opinion change? Did your opinion change?

Speaker 1 (03:31):
I did enjoy it more the second time, but I
still had a tummy ache.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
See it's funny the first time I saw it, And
that was what I.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Was gonna ask you, is this This isn't your first time.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
A million times? My first time I saw it, I
like laughed my ass off and thought it was the
funniest thing I'd ever seen. And then I watked it
again a few months later and I all of a sudden,
I was like, this is horrible. These people are monsters?
What is that? I was like, like, stop stop doing
it to each other. And that's one reason why I

(04:04):
really love this movie is because I take away different
things every time I watch it. So I was wondering
when you said it. I didn't know it was your
first time. Yeah I would if you're second all of
a sudden, if you kind of flipped and went, oh, well,
now that some of the parts are funnier and some
of the parts are sadder, or how it went. But yeah,
I fascinating. I had no idea.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, it was definitely an experience. So now it's also
it's based on the stage play written by Edward Alby.
So have you seen the play? Because I feel like
it would be different. Yes, I have a person. I
don't know if it well for better or worse, But.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
I don't know. You're getting all my bullet points early.
I love this. I did see it in a production
that just about blew my face off. I will tell
you the cast. It was going to Jackson as Martha,
John Let's Go as George, Cynthia Nixon was Honey, and

(05:05):
Brian Kerwin was Nick. Directed by mister Edward Alby himself.
This was in nineteen eighty nine at the Huntington Hartford Theater,
which is nice because in Los Angeles that is the
small theater. It would have been lost in the big
barns like Yama San and where they do the oscars
and all that, and it wouldn't have worked. But my

(05:27):
hand almost flew off when I thought I'd already decided.
Gwen to Jackson was probably my favorite at the time
living actress, and to see her in this, I gotta
tell you it was weirdly not great reviews. It was
just very which which I think everybody was expecting so
much more. But I've got to say, Glenda perfect American accent,

(05:51):
and oh my god, when she got to lines like
I am the earth Mother and you are all flops,
like the entire audience was scorched. It was like it
was like you couldn't and and Ligo was was just
it was He's completely his own take on the role.
But he had that same blend like usually Will that

(06:14):
Burton did, where he can be meek and and and
and mousey and put upon and then all of a
sudden kind of stand up straight and just become this
like like you know, strong in charge. And so they
were both perfectly cash and I just loved it and say,

(06:34):
only only production I've ever seen of it. But but
what a way to go?

Speaker 1 (06:38):
Did you like it live better than on film?

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Well, it was one of those weird things. I had
seen the movie at that point a billion times. This
is the movie that that my friends and I at
the time and Stephen and I since since, because I
saw it before I've ever met him. But we quote
this movie all the time. It is so quotable. And
it took me about fifteen minutes get into the production

(07:02):
because I kept hearing the film yeah, and I was like,
that's not right, that's not right, not wrong inflection, No, no,
that's not but to be funny, and so I was
kind of like resisting it, but then I kind of
gave over to it and it was great, and it
was I mean, the movie is very very close to

(07:22):
the playscript. I mean it is not one of those
adaptations where they just said, oh, we'll keep the premise
and we'll bring in some after characters and we'll like
have a scene, you know, with thirty other characters. Like. No,
this is a very well done transfer of play to screen.
So seeing the play did not really change up much

(07:43):
about it it, which is neat to see a different
interpretation of some of these same characters with different different
dynamics and different you know, kind of kind of power
plays going on than what I saw in the film. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
I always feel like it's a little bit like when
you've seen a movie a million times at home and
then you get the opportunity to see it in a
theater with an an audience, you know, the rest of
the audience, and they're laughing at things that you never
laugh at, and you're like, what, it just brings a
whole different, you know, kind of experience.

Speaker 2 (08:18):
Or if you're me, you laugh at things no one
else does. I tell you a little and then like
the entire room is silent. I've like made this like
big laugh and it's I own it. I don't care.
You make them think about it later, right exactly?

Speaker 1 (08:34):
To talk about dinner?

Speaker 2 (08:35):
What does that mean?

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Three bits of trivia facts about our director Mike Nichols
and a quote from Mike Nichols. Richard Burton, who in
his private diaries is frequently scathing about his colleagues and
just has no qualms about ripping them to shreds. He

(08:57):
writes glowingly about Mike Nichols. Professionally, he believed that Nichols
was one of only three directors who brought out something
in me as an actor which I didn't know was there.
And on a personal level, thought Nichols and Noel Coward
were the only men of talent whose company he actually enjoyed.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Wow, I'm not surprised. I mean, Elizabeth Coward, like, hello,
Elizabeth Taylor asked to have Nichols direct this. It was
his first film, and it was on account of she
wanted him to do it, So I'm sure. I'm sure
Richard had something to say about that too, But.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
I mean, luckily they thought about everything else. It's good
that they agreed on him. Yeah. I know we talked
about this on our Wolf episode, but I have to
bring it up again because so dagone impressive. Mike Nichols
is an egot. He has four Emmys, one Grammy, one
Oscar and eight Tonys.

Speaker 2 (09:59):
Like he also had no eyebrows. Is that is that
in your trivia?

Speaker 1 (10:02):
That is not in my trivia.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
He had alopecia, but yeah, yeah, and he had no
eyebrows and he started wearing fake eyebrows back when he
was working with Elaine May and kept him up till
till almost the whole of his life.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Hey, you got Diane Sawyer, So there has to be
something to that.

Speaker 2 (10:20):
He was wearing his sexy eyebrows. Right.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
He had five rules for filmmaking. Number one, the careful
application of terror is an important form of communication, which
I feel like that is this entire movie for me.
Number two, anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.
I don't know how I feel about that one.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Number three sounds like it came out of the movie right.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Number three, there's absolutely no substitute for genuine lack of preparation.
Number four. If you I think there's good in everybody,
you haven't met everybody. And number five friends may come
and go, but enemies will certainly become studio heads.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
It sounds like he must have written those five right
after he directed this movie, because there's a lot of
that saying kind of kind of like I have to
deal with you, but I kind of hate you, but
it's reciprocal. And yeah, yeah, interesting, interesting.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
And then I love this quote because I love and
adore Elizabeth Taylor. I think she was just fabulous, and
Mike Nichols said about her, there are three things I
never saw Elizabeth Taylor do tell a lie, be unkind
to anyone and be on time.

Speaker 2 (11:45):
Oh that sounds fabulous.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
I know. It's just the best quote ever.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
I've got two more? Can I throw in two more?

Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (11:54):
What is just so random? It was one of those
like cosmic universe things, right, which is like what now?
So Nichols famously directed a production of Waiting for GOODO
in the eighties with Robin Williams and Steve Martin and
Bill Irwin.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
On PBS and it was so amazing.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, But it turns out he has an association with
that play. Before he teamed up with Elaine May in
Chicago and was doing their stand up. He was trying
to be a legit actor, and he appeared in a
production of Waiting for GOODO as I think it was lucky.
One of the more minor characters, and one of the
two leads was Harvey Korman. Oh my god, Harvey Corman.

(12:38):
Harvey Corman was also trying to be like a legit
serious actor and Mike Nichols was trying to be this
legit serious actor. So they appeared in the production of
Waiting for GOODO in Chicago in nineteen fifty seven. I
want a time machine and I want to go back
to see Harvey Corman in a Beckett play. I just
without like a funny accent or boobs or you know

(13:01):
whatever else he needed to do to make it funny.
That just blew my mind. I was like, this is
the kind of weird trivia that it gets me excited.
The other one though, and putting on my Broadway hat
for a minute. Nichols, as you mentioned, it is an egot.
He has a bunch of te's in that egot, Tony, Tony, Tony.
But he was also really famous in the biz for

(13:23):
being a show doctor, which is basically somebody who isn't
really a writer or a director or involved with the
show at all, but swoops in when they're having trouble
and says, here's what you need to do. Boom boom boom,
you're going to have a hit, And then they do
those things and they have a hit. So he's most
famous for taking the musical Annie from this ridiculous hot

(13:46):
mess that was not working and had all kinds of problems,
and he came in and like Mike Nichols did, and said, no,
we're doing this, We're doing that we're changing this, we're
changing that. Here's what you're going to do. And of
course it opened and played for years and you know,
everybody in America can sing tomorrow. But he also did
that for My One and Only, which is a fantastic

(14:07):
Gershwind musical, and lots of other shows. They would just
call him up and say, Mike, we got some problems.
The funny part of it is a lot of show
doctors do it out of friendship. It's in the theater community.
I'll help you out, and you're gonna come and help
me out whatever. Mike Nichols always got paid for it,

(14:27):
even though he was not credited. He made sure he
was always paid, which I think was a little window
into his mind or his life that that, oh, he
would help, he'd be a pal. But he also, you know,
had a contract.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, shrewd, very shrud. That's awesome. I did not know that.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
All.

Speaker 1 (14:48):
Right, here we go. We're getting into it. As I mentioned,
this film is about the Dinner Party from Hell. So Robert,
can you give our listeners who may not have seen
or heard this film a little more informative synopsis than
just you know, it's two hours of misery.

Speaker 2 (15:07):
Certainly it is a George and Martha sad sad sad anyway.
One of my favorite quotes from that I said it
all the time anyway. The film is set in a
small college town. George is a middling professor married to

(15:28):
the president of the college's daughter, Martha. Keep those mind
names in mind. George and Martha, they become symbolicalator in
anyway that they are been married for some time, they
are discontent that they, like many longtime married couples, they
have their moments, but they're they are to kind of
over each other at this point in their marriage. She

(15:51):
in particular things that George should have made more of himself. She,
after all, is the daughter of the president, and uh, George,
she feels is done enough to be running the school.
As she says, you are in the English department. You
should be the English department anyway, in her emphatic way

(16:11):
of speaking. And they've come home from this ghastly party
that we did not see, and as he's winding down
and getting ready to go to bed, she announces, oh, no,
no time for that. Makes some drinks. We've got guests
coming over. She has invited two young people. They don't
actually have names. We never learned their real names. He
is known by conventionist Nick. I think it's in like

(16:34):
the play text, but he doesn't name's never given, and
she is called Honey. But we don't know their names.
They're just this younger couple. He is in the math department.
Well he's not in the math department. Martha says he's
in the math department. Anyway. Turns out he's actually in
the science department. But anyway, they are coming over for

(16:55):
a night cap because Martha has invited them, and we
spend their red to the evening more or less in
real time with them. Over the next couple hours, as
they drink and drink more and drink more, and all
four people start to kind of unravel and show their
their other side and what's really going on. And there

(17:16):
are shenanigans and high jinks and party games, lots of
party games, my favorite, the well known named hump the Hostess,
But anyway, that one comes after get the guests and
before bringing up baby. But anyway, party games and lots
of drinking and animosity, and after many hours of arguing

(17:40):
and recriminations and the secrets revealed, everything kind of explodes
and Nick and Honey are finally dismissed, and George and
Martha realize it is dawn and have to begin another
day in their marriage. Slow curtain the end.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I love the first five minutes, but then after that,
I'm like, why are these two people still married to
each other? Just save yourself and run away.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
You can see it all through though. That's one thing
I love about this movie is especially in the first
five minutes, which is so brilliant because it sets it
all up. But they are affectionate and and they do
they have got which probably Burton and Taylor Bills brought
a lot of their own relationship along with fast that
they're both amazing actors. But I just totally bought this

(18:28):
is a couple who've been together forever, and they go
off into their little baby talk game, and they go
off into their little thing and they have that same
fight they always have. It's kind of like a fun
little Saturday night tradition. And they just I totally bought
them as a long time married couple. And and I

(18:49):
but they were close. I didn't I didn't think that
they were you know.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
Go ahead, Oh sorry, no, I was gonna say. I
love the whole sequence when she quotes Betty Davis and
she's like, what is that movie? And she goes through
the whole scene imitating Betty Davis and describes this movie.
And that is such a real, like longtime couple argument,

(19:15):
like you know, the one with the guy in the thing,
and what I.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Love about that sequence too. And I can talk about
the opening sequence now, I guess rather than save it
up for later, but I.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Think we're kind of throwing our guideline out the window.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
Now. That's fine, but the opening sequence to me, the
first well, I mean, first of all, you've got like
this three or four minute credits montage of this quiet,
peaceful college campus. It's very late at night, there's no
one around except a couple walking through the dark, and
we don't really see them. And it goes on for
a couple of minutes, and then you see the couple

(19:52):
in silhouette coming to the front door, and then we
do a reverse angle and it's dark and the door
opens and the light switch turns on. There are Burton
and Taylor just standing there in this hideous light, just
staring straight ahead. It is such a brilliant star entrance.
I love Star entrances in movies, and this is such

(20:13):
a great one because I mean, they were two of
the most famous actors in the world at that time,
they were the most famous couples certainly in the world
at that time, and we get this great build up
to them just like and boom, there they are, like
you almost want to applaud, like during that pause they're
about just.

Speaker 1 (20:31):
You can feel like that is the moment when someone
famous is in a Broadway show and they made their
entrance and you lose the whole show for like five minutes.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
While so brilliant, but then to your point, she goes
off on that Betty Davis riff. That entire bit just
not only is it hilariously funny, and she's sitting there
and bless Elizabeth Taylor for putting on thirty pounds for
this role like she did and everything else. She's sitting
there like eating fried chicken out of the fridge, talking

(21:02):
with her mouth full, and it's like las so George
chewing on her chickens.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
At the same time, yeah, and then eating like.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
He's like not even listening, but he's listening enough that
he keeps correcting her grammar, which I think is hilarious.
It's like the perfect red couple. I am the George
in that race. Grammar can't help it. Even when I'm
not listening, I'm like, no, it's to whom, not to
whom anyway. But her speech where she basically ostensibly talking
about this Betty Davis movie, Betty Davis comes home from

(21:35):
a hard day at the grocery store, and he's like,
what she's like, she's a housewife, she buys thing. It's hilarious,
and then she does this whole thing and it's so funny,
and it's like just campy and funny and just exactly
what you would think she would say. But then there's
this pause and he says, he mumbles something, and she

(21:55):
says she discontent, and all of a sudden, she's not
talking about the damn movie anymore. She's not being her
like blousy, funny self. She is like, here's what we're
really talking about now, and to me, that that is
what so many relationships, whether it's with your parents or
with your whatever. It's like, I'm gonna shoot the breeze

(22:18):
about this movie we were talking about. But then oh wait,
here's my thing. Boom uh. The opening scene is great
and then so many more quotable lines. The mousey little
thing with any without any hips or anything. She says
about the guests coming. I just and then and then
I squeal every time. When he's like, don't bray, Martha,

(22:39):
She's like, I don't pray. Oh my god. And props
for Elizabeth Taylor for making herself so just almost grotesquely unattractive, unappealing,
brain eating her chicken, boobs are falling out of her dress.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
Still the most beautiful woman in the history of the world. Yes,
she's got all this makeup on. Oh you know, a
wig that's grey, like she had put on weight, which
even with extra weight, like, she looks fabulous, and you're
still just like, my god, it's amazing.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
It sets up the whole movie so brilliantly, and the
whole play before that, but where ostensibly they're talking about
one thing, but really there's all this other stuff that's
going on. So her discussion about Betty Davis being the
discontent housewife, Yes, she's trying to remember what the quote
is she says when she says want to dump, But

(23:39):
also she is now introduced like, here's our theme of
what tonight's going to be about I'm just content that
that's our topic. We can call it Betty Davis, we
can call it, you know, whatever you want. But here's
what's going to really go down, and it does. It
sets up the wreck of the movie so well.

Speaker 1 (23:58):
So now I have a question for you because this
has bothered me through both like watchings. So you get
through exposition that it's two am when the first party
ends and they come staggering home and they're already blotto.
So my question is to Nick and Honey, like, who

(24:23):
agrees to go out for a nightcap at two am?
Like what sort of self destructive, like kind of wanting
to be beaten kind of people are these that you
already have read the room and know that these two
are a hot mess from the party you were just
at because their behavior was disgusting there. So why in

(24:44):
God's name do they go?

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Well? I amber the reason is because, as we learned
about all the characters, nobody's what they seem us at first.
Nick is super super ambitious, and she is, as we
hear often, the college president's daughter. And he knows that
if the college president daughter says, come have a drink

(25:06):
and it's freaking two in the morning, and everyone's already slashed.
You go and you, you know, suck up and you
kiss her button, you defer, and you because well, think
about how deferential and also flirty he is in the
beginning with her.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
He is disgustingly flirty with her.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
At the beginning, and then and under the under the
guys probably of oh we're all a little tipsy, ah
flirty thirty, your husband's right here, there's my wife. It
doesn't mean anything, right, everybody in this movie is is
in some way or they're kind of despicable and although
also entertaining. But but he is just career minded. And

(25:44):
I mean he married he marries Honey. Spoilers alert for
everybody listening. If you haven't watched the movie, pause now
because we are already. But anyway, yeah, he already we
already learned that that he married Honey ustensibly because she
thought she was pregnant, but in actuality because her family
has a lot of money. They mentioned that that that

(26:08):
her father has money. So Nick, yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
Was so focused on the hysterical pregnancy thing.

Speaker 2 (26:15):
When he and when he and m and George are
having their little hell they did the round robin thing
in this the only thing we don't really get is
a really good scene, a long scene between Honey and Martha,
which would have been great. But we have, like, you know,
the different pairings.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
Of I don't know, I couldn't handle George being mean
to Honey. I don't think I could have handled Martha
just eating her alive in little tiny pieces.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Oh well, okay, we have we have different different takes
on Honey. But no, I think I think Nick is
just super super ambitious and if he need to help
the hostess to get a promotion, he'll do it.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Oh that just makes him even more gross, Like already
didn't like him.

Speaker 2 (26:59):
Do you love? Though? I mean when I think of
George Siegel, I think of I guess, late period George
Siegel what I amused to seeing, where you know, the
sweet little Jewish man, the comedian even.

Speaker 1 (27:11):
On like he's and is he's the the schmo and
look who's talking that gets Kirsty ally pregnant and he's
such a jerk.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, but but he like I mean, I think that's
all I can think of. Well, he was on that
I think it was called Just Shoot Me. Maybe there
was a sitcom with him and David Spade and some
other people. He'd been in a lot of things, but
he almost always, especially the older he got, which is
very comical and very lovable and twinkling and and comical,

(27:43):
kind of leaned more into the Jewish thing, which he
kind of did not do in early in his career.
And and but in this it's like I forget that
early on he was really more of a dramatic actor
than he was a comic actor. But he found a
groove and went there, you.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Know, yeah, for sure. Well, let's take a quick break
and then when we come back, we'll get even further
into the cast and talk about the production and talk
about some noteworthy scenes.

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Speaker 1 (28:54):
So welcome back to our discussion of Who's Afraid of
Virginia Wolf. Let's continue talking about the cast. There's only
four people in the whole movie. I don't count like
the bar, center, at the at the pub they stop at,
because they don't do that in the play, right.

Speaker 2 (29:13):
Their whole play is in their living room. It's one set.
And that's one thing I think Nichols did, because he
is our raised debtra for this episode. Mike Nichols just
made this what could have been stagey one set play
so filmmic. It is just you don't ever get this
viewing that you're you're trapped in one room with these people.

(29:36):
I mean partly because they did set up the device
of zooming off to the roads, roadhouse or whatever it
was with the jukebox or whatever, and then coming back
and then they film one of the scenes is outside
or in their backyard or wherever, but even the scene
so in the house, Nichols just keeps the camera moving

(29:58):
and the editing going to where he You do not
feel like you are watching something that's going on behind
the proscenium and you're like oh god, are we ever
going to get out of this room? But yeah, and
weirdly more trivia the I learned this today when I
was reading up a little bit more on it. The
guy at the roadhouse and the waitress or barmaid or

(30:19):
whatever she is, we're actually that that's the gaffer and
his wife. They just like they were just like somebody
come in here and carry a tray of glasses and
you come and yeah, so they did. They just did that,
but yeah, only only for four actors.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
And talking about the way Mike Nichols shot this, I
am not a big fan of super duper close ups.
They make me very uncomfortable. And but the way he
uses them in this movie to make you uncomfortable, I
think is so amazing and to make sometimes it makes

(30:54):
the character vulnerable, sometimes it makes them uglier. Sometimes you know,
it makes them harder. It just kind of depends on
the angle. I thought that was really really well done.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
I love how he uses individual close ups and then
sometimes who'll have like two people in a shot. Yes,
that whole sequence where it's all starting to unravel near
the end, and all of a sudden, poor Nick is like,
I don't know a few people are lying or what.
And then all of a sudden we cut to this

(31:28):
shot and it's been a lots of like on one head,
one head, one head. He said, I don't know if
you two were lying or what. All of a sudden
they're George and Martha side by side in the shot
and they're like, you're damn right, you're not supposed to
and it's like bam, they've like teamed up literally in
the shot on him. And then there's a great follow

(31:48):
up where George says sorry, Nick says something about like, oh,
and your parents were there? Was that after you shot them?
And we see only Burton in the shot, only George,
and he says maybe, and then all of a sudden,
up pops Martha into the frame and goes yeah or

(32:10):
maybe not. And it's like these two have got like
this like two for act going. That is so brilliant.
And then those scenes would not have played the same
way if you'd been doing justice close ups or just
like a master shot or something. And then that great.
I just love the cinematography of this and the filming

(32:31):
that great. The only time we really get a big
master shot the very beginning of the party, when they
all sit down on the couch and they're kind of
yacking a little bit, and George is hovering in the background.
And then at the end when like all hell is
broken loose and they're getting ready to leave, and what
was the but Taylor crying her eyes out and it
just snap dragons or all over the floor. It's the
whole thing, I think, gladiolos.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
But anyway, who I was gonna say this. They're not snapchecking, I.

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Know, but anyway, but whatever they are. The all of
a sudden we get this great master shot and for
the first time in the film, it's not like you're
at the party. You're at the in the room with them,
not like a straight on shot. The camera's way up
showing her sitting in the window box crying and George

(33:18):
is hovering over her, and the other couple is in
the corner kind of like trying to think, like how
the hell can we get to that door? It's only
four feet away, but like help us, And we have
this long master shot as all these final things are
being said, and then they go into that nice shot
of George and Martha in the window frame where he
comes over and consoles her and they're they're having the

(33:40):
very last line of the film, and again just so filming,
it's so great to all of a sudden kind of
set up the claustrophobia and the being too close and
they literally are in your face yelling and screaming at you.
The party starts would have we're kind of omnissioned and detached,
and it kind of ends that way where I think
it partly just to give us breathing room. At this

(34:01):
point we are all rung out, just like they are,
and like a little nauseous and a little bit.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
Like seriously like my tummy hurts.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Like you want to put your drink down. You're like,
I'm never doing that again, you know.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
But I think that that lovely second to last shot
where the cameras just very removed is it's like we're
backing up. It's ending, you can you know, the franticness
and the claustrophobia and the intensity it's dissipating now. So
Nichols his direction is so extraordinary, how he tells so

(34:37):
much of the story or give so much of the
feeling through where he puts his cameras and stuff, which
which again with four people in one one setting, ostensibly
it could be really dull to watch. But you know,
I mean did did this. Both the play and the
film had really LPs of the entire show. You can

(34:58):
you can get them. Yeah, And because like literally it
is a radio play, you don't need to see any
of this, yeah to get it. Albi is great, but
he's very talking, but you don't need to really see
anything's going on. Ever, So the album is both sold
and both work. But but Nichols was able to take

(35:20):
take it and make it so filmic and make it
work as a movie where you were not visually bored
or or you know, able to anticipate what you were
going to see next.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Absolutely, Let's talk about Richard Burton. He is usually like
I always thinking of the movie The Sandpipers, like so romantic,
so dashing, oh my gosh, like you could just fade.
And he is so like driven to his knees by

(35:55):
Martha on so many occasions that he finally like steps
to her. At first, you're kind of cheering him on,
but he always takes it too far. Yeah, Like, and
I can't get over the fact that you know he was,
you know, just a famous drinker in the you know,

(36:18):
pantheon of like Richard Harris and Peter O'Toole and just
carousing their way through you know, the English countryside. But
he remained sober during working hours because he said, like
he you can't work when you're falling apart, Like I
can play drunk, but I can't be drunk and play

(36:38):
like it just doesn't happen.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Since I saw on one of the Bonus features things
that they were showing some behind the scenes footage, and
I was like, what is going on with Burton? What
is happening? Because he's standing there and he's listening, I
think probably to Mike Nichols. I forget who siderable people
in the shot and he's standing there listening, and You're like,
something is not right. And I'm not going to say

(37:03):
that he was like swaying and anebriate, and he was not.
But all of a sudden he go to step up
in front of the camera and his whole posture just crumpled,
and I was like, oh my god. He was like
when he was listening and not acting, he was like
standing up with this great posture and looked his head
up and like they said, well film and it was
like this beaten down man who like aged ten years

(37:26):
walked in front of the camera and I was like,
oh my god, I mean it was it seems like
it should be obvious, but I was like, he's doing
so much and his power in this because he is
so beaten down for so much of the movie. When
he starts to kind of get back his power and
flips the switch on poor little uh Martha Burton, I mean,

(37:49):
did keep that camera on his face and you can
just see the thought process and the evil evil glints
and and the the you know, I mean just.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
Every time he's listening to Nick and Honey, you can
watch him filing away all this information that he is
going to use to just destroy their lives later on.
Like Martha, I think is more like she shoots from
the hip. I don't think she's as calculated as he is.

(38:23):
She's just so quick that she can just nail you,
you know, without having to really work at it. Where
he is constantly like preparing and sifting through everything you've
said for the thing that he can devastate you with
the most.

Speaker 2 (38:41):
That that is one criticism that this movie and play
of both received was that exactly to your point, George
and then also Nick, the men are very shrewd and
calculating and smart and and and and whatever you want
to call it. And Honey and Martha are just emotional.

(39:06):
They're not and and and so the people are acute
albion in another plays too, of being very kind of sexist,
where the women are reactive and emotional and and and
the men are smarter and in control and and and
and thinking ahead and in that kind of thing. And

(39:26):
it doesn't.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
Didn't think of it that way, but that does seem
to be a fair criticism now, and it also.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
It sets up the wonderful fan theory. I keep waiting
for someone to write the play, but I love the
fact that that in Nick and Honey because of that,
because the men are both playing the long game, so
to speak, and listening and really carefully and gathering up
all all their little bits of knowledge they can use
against somebody later, and the women are just kind of
like whenever, I'm just you know, in my moment. But

(39:56):
the idea is that with Nick and Honey, what we're
looking at is a future George and Martha put twenty
years on them, and they will be exactly like George
and Martha are the same dynamics. She's emotional and manipulative
and he is shrewd and kind of playing a role.

(40:20):
I know it's a theory. I don't know if I
buy it either, But people people think that's like I
feel like situating.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Maybe it could have been if they hadn't gone to
this party.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Mmm. I like that.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
I think that this experience, like they are leaving changed people,
and I don't think they'll ever be alone in a
room with Georgia Martha ever.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
Again, No, no one should, I.

Speaker 1 (40:41):
Mean seriously, And that's the thing that drives me crazy
is why don't she just leave? Like I would have
gotten it the minute he brought out that freaking shotgun
that gag. Mmm, I'm out.

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Yeah, Well, I think at that point, I mean that
that is a valid question, because there's so many times
where I'm like no, it's like no, that is when
I'd be like, get the car, We're out of here.
I'm not, I'm not, but but are you? I don't know.
Especially with Nick, there is this kind of mano a mano,
like the two rams butting their heads sing right, feel

(41:18):
like as long as George's game, Nick is gonna keep
pushing at him and they're gonna see who's like the
real the real man in in this. You know, I
don't know perhaps.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
Well, and I do keep reminding myself and I was
trying to keep track and I always lose track, but like,
just how freaking drunk are they? How many drinks do
they have?

Speaker 2 (41:41):
Like I was.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Trying to keep track and I kept getting distracted and
then I'd lose count. But I mean they're like half
a Battle of Brandy in, you know, halfway through the movie,
and I mean I would be in the hospital.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
Well when George does break the unbottle though, so you know,
at least we were spared that.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
Yes, did you love? One of my favorite things when
they come back from the roadhouse, there's a whole sequence
with Elizabeth Taylor just kind of walking through the house
and she's looking, She's like, where did everybody go? And
she's looking for them, and she walks out into the
yard and the whole time she's carrying her drink and

(42:26):
you just hear this incessant clinking of her ice cubes.
I don't know why I am so fascinated by that,
but that whole sequence, I was just like in it,
and it had to do with that that sound effect,
you know, was just so effective, like this this ghost
rattling through the wreckage of this party.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
That is hilarious because I'm thinking about it. You don't
usually hear the ice cubes through the movie, but you
hear them then for sure.

Speaker 1 (43:01):
I love Elizabeth Taylor. I think she is absolutely amazing
in this role. To play twenty years older and unattractive
and hateful.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
Well, that's the thing is, she did nothing to make
her character. None of them did but likable. There was
no but y'all know, I'm Elizabeth Taylor. Wink wink. It
was like, no, she was a virago. She was just
shrill and loud and braying and everything else. And it
makes me a little sad because so much of her

(43:38):
career she spent just being kind of the pretty object,
you know, and it was like.

Speaker 1 (43:45):
A place in the sun where she's like the trophy,
this beautiful.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Yeah, And she was absolutely that I got she was stunning.
But she had so much depth. I mean, I think
this is probably by far my favorite movie of her
in terms of her acting and her range, because she
gets to do so much.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Now, we talked about George Siegel a little bit. Sandy Dennis.
How do we feel about her? She makes me crazy?
And when I see the list of actresses that played
Honey on stage, you know, like Carry Kuon and Cynthia
Nixon and you know Imma Jeen Poots, I'm like, anybody else?

(44:30):
Does she make you crazy? Do you like her?

Speaker 2 (44:32):
I don't like her, But by the way you left
off the original Honey, Melinda Dylan, Oh my gosh, that's right.
Ten years later is Richard Dreyfus's a little fling and
Close Encounters of the third kind talk about range like,
I'm gonna be on Broadway doing Albie and then I'm
going to be in a Spielberg movie. And I can nail.

(44:53):
I can nail both. But no, Sandy Dennis gives me hives. Basically,
I mean she is. She won an Oscar for it.
I mean that was one of the things about this
movie is all four of the actors won Oscars for
the movie. I mean it, it was kind of it
was nominated for thirteen and won five and but all

(45:14):
four and I just I mean the sifty when we
started doing Kookie and Weird, that's why we got Nickel,
Jack Nicholson and and al Patino and a lot of
those actors who were not a movie star handsome or
classically trained. It was these kind of more real people.
But I I, yeah, I I I liked her when

(45:37):
I saw her in this, even though the character is
annoying as fuck, but you know, liked her a lot.
But then I saw her in like two other things,
and I was like, oh my god, that's just her.
She just like she's not inhabiting a role. She's just
this weird KABOOKI.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Is the same way, yes, yeah, where they just like
show up and are weird and twitchy.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
And or do you mean Jennifer Chilly? You mean no,
Meg Tilly. Jennifer Tilly is a national treasure and I.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Love Yeah, but they're talking against her.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
Okay, I just want to make sure we were on
the same patient.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
But yeah, Dennis.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
I'm told it was very very effective. I think she
I think she has a tony for something else. I mean,
she was.

Speaker 1 (46:22):
People love her, not me, No, But then I wondered, like,
Honey is annoying, but I feel so I hate when
George turns on her, when he rips her apart because
of the baby and just starts taking all this information

(46:42):
that he's gathered and just completely eviscerates her. I hate
it so much because it's I'm like kicking a kitten.
There's no challenge there, there's no you know. I think
it is spiteful and mean just for the hell of it.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
I think it's more to get at Nick more than
it is to do a faft Honey. And and and
let me.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
Hope doesn't care. Well, no, he doesn't get as mad
as he should.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
No, But the that's the thing. I mean, George and
Martha are super loyal to each other. You you know,
you can, they can ripeat o the guts out. But
you do not get to play that game that is
that is just for them. You are not worthy. But
I I like to believe Honey seems like she is
the only one in the film who has had a drink,
and and obviously far too many. She is super like

(47:33):
drunk and weird all through. And I like to believe
that the next morning she's gonna wake up and and
have a horrible headache and and and a dry mouth
and and and turned to Nick and say, did we
go to that those people's house last night? Did we
have fun? And he was like it was fine, dear
and she's like, Okay, that's why I'm hoping, because yeah,
that was that was a lot that George unleashed on her.

(47:56):
I also wonder too, because I believe these people are
all real. I wonder George just was so frustrated with
Martha that he was just lashing out, like at anybody
and everybody, you know, without without his usual calculation and stuff.
He just was just being he just kind of his Yeah.

(48:20):
Can I talk for a minute about about the screenwriter?
Oh yeah, since we're ostensibly in the cast and crew
portion of the year, I know, sorry, death outline, there's
no outline with us now anyway. The no, it's that
Ernest Lehman was the screenwriter for this. Now. What I
love about Ernest Lehman is he made like twenty movies

(48:43):
and all but one he adapted a stage play into
a movie. So he was known famously in Hollywood as
the person who wrote exterior George and Martha's House in
between all the dialogue because he never changed the dialogue really,
not ever, very very rarely he did. He was mainly

(49:05):
known weirdly for musicals. He he he took The King
and I and then West Side Story, which we've talked about,
and then the sound of Music and then Streisand's Hello Dolly.
All of those were screenplayed by Ernest Lehman, which basically
may meant take take the play and just write some
directions for the camera on the page and something else.

(49:27):
Now West Side Story, he did come up with the
ideal that was also Robert. Why is the director switching
some scenes around?

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Robert Wise has his hands all over the place.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Yeah, so so that. But but but Lehman was basically
was the go to guy for we have a smashed
Broadway show, how do we make this a movie? Handed
to earn it, till write in you know, exterior day, uh,
you know whatever. But but but he did write one
screenplay entirely on his own. It was his own idea
and he wrote it himself. And that was north By Northwest.

(50:02):
So if you're only gonna have one movie that you
remembered for your movie, I'm like, where he got this?
I have no idea. But Hitchcock loved him. He also
worked on Family Plot too. I forget if he got credited,
but he worked on the last Hitchcock the Family Plot movie.
But but Liam and what I love especially about himides
the fact that he had a twenty five year Hollywood

(50:23):
career just turning plays in the movies. But was that
he this movie, this lovely movie. We're talking about black
and white, four characters, dark, nasty, foul language. It was
unrated at the time, and I let him get released.
Came out in between Sound of Music and Hello Dolly.

(50:49):
Before that it was the Singing Nuns and the Alps,
and after that it was Barbara being you know, bigger
than the train Station and everything else, and then he
slid this one in in between them, So I mean
nothing else. That guy was versatile. But anyway, I crashed
me up because because you can literally sit with the
play in your lap and watch the film and I think,

(51:11):
what one like, you know, fuck you turned into or
screwed you? Maybe it was turned into damn you. You know,
there's like a few little barely uh language shifts, and
that's it. That's all he did. Was basically like the dialogue.
It's all there on the page. You can do a
read along. But Lehman and Nichols obviously came up with

(51:34):
the shots and the angles, along with the Haskell Wexler,
who did the amazing cinematography. But uh yeah, I can't
understand the career of Erness Lehmann because some of my
some of my favorite movies, and he contributed as far
as I can tell, nothing.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
But when you got a gag, you know.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
But but you know, North Northwest.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Like I would forgive a lot of that movie.

Speaker 2 (52:01):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, all right, I.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Want to talk behind the scenes a little bit. So
this story just completely blows my mind. Burton and Taylor,
as you have said, were like the hugest stars, I
just legendary stars. And so the story goes that it

(52:25):
was a challenge to actually get them in front of
the cameras. They both they both had it in their
contracts that they didn't have to be on set until
ten in the morning, even though like most other productions,
begin like a dawn, especially because she had two hours
of makeup to do and she did not care. So

(52:48):
they arrive on set. It takes them two hours, you know,
around ten o'clock, two hours of makeup, hair, and wardrobe.
Now they're ready for shooting. And by the time they
were camera ready, now it's lunchtime. So they'd go off
for these lengthy, cocktail filled lunches and return late in

(53:08):
the afternoon to finally begin shooting. And when they finally
did come back, they'd just ignore it all and be
real nice, hey, Mike, We're sorry, we're late, you know,
but we're ready. Let's shoot. And but then they wouldn't
come back until like five o'clock. And they had it
in their contract that they couldn't work Peck six.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
So they were the biggest stars in the world, you know, right.

Speaker 1 (53:30):
So they'd show up, they'd get into their gear and
then go drink for four hours and come back and
like shoot for an hour and then they're dead. So
Mike Nichols ended up being thirty days over schedule and
doubled the budget, and the studio was going to kick
him off the movie, but they knew if they fired him,

(53:52):
the Burtons would walk, so like they were hamstrung. There
was nothing they could do, and like Richard Burton and
Elizabeth Taylor just did like whatever they wanted.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Did you read about the original cashting idea for this
movie that Warner Brothers was all gone ho for.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
I think I did, but I don't remember what was it.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
They wanted Betty Davis as Martha and James Mason as George.
They were both longtime Warner Brothers stars. I mean, Mason
had done Starr was born, and Betty had almost her
entire career was it Warner Brothers. And they they both
wanted this movie so bad. And Warner Brothers was like, nobody,

(54:34):
You're not going to play someone who's first scene as
imitating Betty Davis because.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
That just that's a little meta.

Speaker 2 (54:39):
But yeah, you know, and John Crawford and dead I
don't think so. And yeah, and and and Mason I
think wasn't available maybe or something, but that that was
the original thought was to go with them. And and honestly,
I mean seeing this on paper, you would not say, oh,

(55:01):
the Burton Taylor's, they'd be perfect at the shrews ugly
over the hill, crazy college couple. Like they're not. They're
not a first pick except for the fact that they
have acting jobs, you know, right, But they're not. They're
not a good fit for this, you would think. So
if they want to like lay around all day and
you know, have Martinez offset, I say go for it,

(55:22):
because this movie was well worth it.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Yes, whatever they did, it made it happen.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I did want to mention it is interesting that there
have been so many variations and spin offs and and
spoofs of this every I mean, the Simpsons have done
a spoof of this. This It is very iconic. But
I love all all the theories about this, this play
that have gone around for years. One was said, and
I alluded to it earlier, is that it was this

(55:48):
deconstruction of modern American life, George and Martha being of
course George and Martha Washington, uh, the the the the
the parents, and the the old guard of the country,
and Nick and Honey were the next generation and and
you know, learn from the sins of the father and mother,

(56:09):
although neither were not a father or mother. And it
was just sort of So there's one interpretation. I'll Be
laughed at it and said, no, he said, actually, George
and Martha were based on some real people he knew
that he thought were so horrible he wanted to put
them in a play. But and then also dogging, I'll
be for most of his career because he was a
gay playwright. Was that everyone said when they in the sixties,

(56:31):
when they saw the play, and then later when they
saw the movie, Well, everyone knows that's not how real,
real straight couples are. It's obviously four gay guys. It's
obviously like this, like campy, over the top bitch fest,
two gay couples having at it, which I'll be also
thought was stupid. Is he said, Well, I wouldn't have

(56:52):
had like a pregnancy be one of the most important
plot points of the entire play if in fact it
was put to be four men, because that doesn't have happened.
But even the people harped onto the idea of George
and Martha can't have children, so they pretend to have
a child, and well that's what two men would do,
I guess if they can't. Well, idiotic, although fun fact,

(57:15):
in the nineteen seventies there was going to be an
all male version of this. It was going to be
and it got pretty dang far, and this is going
to be a stage version and then I'll be a
state or actually he was still alive and i'll Be
heard about it and said, this is not happening. He

(57:35):
still has even though he's been dead for years. In
his contract to do his plays, he's very specific about
you cannot do this, you cannot do that. He really
wants this thing to be thinking. But anyway, this nineteen
seventy production. It was going to go to Broadway, they
had financing, the stars were set, everybody was ready until
the author got word of it to know. George and

(57:56):
Martha were going to be once again Richard Burton opposite
Henry Fonda, and the young couple was going to be
Warren Beatty and John Voight. Warren Beatty was going to
be uh Nick, and John Voight was going to be Honey.
They were all for it. It was actually Henry Fonda's idea.

(58:17):
They were gonna just and allb was just like, this
is not happening because my characters are not all men,
two of them are women, two of them are men.
And in fact, to this day there has not been
an authorized legit production of this with anything except two
men and two women playing our four characters. But I
thought that was kind of fascinating. But and I love

(58:40):
all the different interpretations of what this play is really about.
What was really about the decline of America. It's really
about gay couples and how they get bitter they don't
have kids or whatever. Yeah, frankly from a gay man,
blessing no kid, just saying.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
Anyway, the saren well.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
God knows today especially but anyway, Yeah, but but no,
that's really about all I've got for that. Although, and
then one of the fun fact about the play itself,
because the movie got all the Oscars and all the
acclaim it was the first film to have the entire
cast nominated. One of our other favorite Sleuth, also falls
into that category. And do you know what the third

(59:22):
one is? There's only been three in film.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
History to have the whole cast.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
Yeah, the whole cast nominated.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
No, I'm always stuck on you know, there's the movies
that got like the top five pictures screen Yeah, played director,
So no, I don't know what the other one is.

Speaker 2 (59:38):
Yeah, the third one's kind of idiotic because it was
a filmed like thing, but it was in theaters. Give
them hell Harry, which I think it was James Whitmore,
one of those actors playing Harry Truman in a one
man show that they turned into a movie. So but
but yeah, this one all four. But this play was
up for a Politzer Prize nomination and was going to

(59:59):
receive it, but the political committee was like, ew, it's
just so nasty and ugly and they say bad words. No,
so they did not give an award for drama that year.
Even though the committee had said, this is who we
vote for, this is the best play. The Politic Advisory
Committee said, We're just not going to have an award
this year. I'll be showed them. Though he got three

(01:00:19):
more in his lifetime than for three later plays, like
one every decade as long as he was around. But no,
I think that that's oh I got I could I could,
you know, quote this movie all night long.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
But on home, let's discuss some noteworthy scenes now. I
have what I think is the pivotal moment. I've am
pretty sure that we'll agree on that. Were there any
noteworthy scenes?

Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
Now?

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
We talked about the opening, which is just opening.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
And the closing are just also brilliant, And I kind
of touched on that too, with that great master shot
and everybody just kind of taking your breath and winding down.
But then I love that final bit with George and
Martha and and just it's it's so great because he
just there's she's sitting there, he's standing with her, he

(01:01:10):
has his hand on her shoulders, very affectionate and very
kind and just watching her just grapple and try to
understand and figure it out. There's that he heartbreaking moment
uh where she says, well, maybe we could and he's
like no, and it's like the idea of you know,
keeping going with the sun, and just it's so devastating

(01:01:35):
and and and the camera just keeps getting closer slower
and slower, and then the horrible music, by the way,
the score by Alex North, the only part of the
movie I cannot stand.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
Well, it's only there for like a minute in the
beginning and a minute at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yeah, but it's to suffer too minutes. Yeah, thank goodness.
But anyway, if we magnet John Williams got his hand on,
this would be like Marca's theme and you know, anyway, no,
but then the final yes, this final shot of the
two of them just kind of reconnecting, and the camera
just keeps pushing in and pushing in and finally just

(01:02:10):
stops with the two of them kind of clutching each
other's hands, and then it just says the end. And
just such a great way. I mean, it starts off
very light and comic with her Betty Davis impersonation and
the the fuddle husband only half listening, and it's very
joky and funny. Then we're like taking for this two
hour nightmare ride, and then it ends on this really loving,

(01:02:35):
like earned moment that that is not expected from where
we started and certainly not expected from anywhere we thought
we were in the middle of the movie to end
up well.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
And I feel like it also leaves you where at
the beginning you could probably project where you where they're
going to be tomorrow, yeah, you know, but by the
end of it, they're not in the same place, and
you're left wondering, like, where are they going to be tomorrow?

(01:03:06):
Like what the hell happens after they go to bed?

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
Like yeah, you know?

Speaker 1 (01:03:11):
And I think that's interesting that you don't. You thought
you knew at the beginning, but you don't.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
I get this vibe that there's going to be like
one of those episodes of you know, Twilight Zone or
Night Gallery or whatever, where the next day is going
to start and they're going to like have some drinks
and it's going to all start over, you know, you know,
because they're like they're in this like time loop or
something where they're just going to be like, there was
no last night. Meanwhile, how's our side? Oh did you

(01:03:38):
you did today? You know? And I don't know but
but it is, Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
Well, so then we've kind of talked around it. But
let's talk about the pivotal moment.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
When you called the pivotal moment, well, now I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Because I thought it was and I still kind of
think it is. The expression on Richard Burton's face when
George learns that Martha told honey they have a son. Yeah,
because the rule is you can't talk about him. But
then I think right, But then I think I'm wrong,

(01:04:16):
And it's actually when you find out that he doesn't
exist at all.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Well, yeah, I think I think you're right about this.
You might be more right because the movie ultimately is
about relationships. It's about the relationship between George and Martha,
as dysfunctional as it is, and mentioning the son, although
breaking a rule, it's not this does not give you

(01:04:43):
as much insight into the relationship as there is no
damn son. I mean, I don't get emotional every time,
and it's not subtle. But when when George Siegel is going,
I think I understand, Oh my god, I think I understand.
If you're the only person in the audience who isn't
caught up yet at that point, it did. It's heartbreaking,

(01:05:06):
it's so horrible. But what's interesting about that? So I
think it is not that I think it's a catalyst
for the future action because once he finds out that
Martha has broken the rule, he can break all the rules.
But I think I think it did for the audience,
it's revealed there was no son. But what's interesting about
this this play is that this movie is that there's

(01:05:31):
all kinds of lies and misinformation, Like, was Honey ever pregnant?

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
Does she want kids? Or does she not want kids?

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Right? And she has this quote hysterical pregnancy. Well, did
she just basically tell Nick that, oh, I'm pregnant, now
you have to marry me and she like knew or
did she actually think she would just so?

Speaker 1 (01:05:54):
Well like they talk about her gaining weight, and I'm like, well,
did she just put on the freshman fifteen? And everybody's
there's this whole?

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
And then was it deliberate? Was it not deliberate once
she happened? If it was, did she and invertuately she
you know, wasn't planned? Did she did ensnare him with it? Anyway?
I mean, so there's that whole. Then there's the whole
mystery of did George kill his parents or not, Like
we don't really ever know if that ever happens. This

(01:06:24):
whole movie, like everybody is just lying out their ass
about everything, and so there's there's this whole thing, and
then of course you have all this subtext of he's
in the math department, he's not in the math, he's
in the math department. And then when finally when Nick says, well,
I'm not in the math department, I'm in the science
department or biology department, and she says, are you sure?

(01:06:47):
Like the whole the whole thing is just everybody's the
things they say, they're just all untethered from reality. It's
like and it's like, is it deliberate? Is it coping mechanisms?
Are they all just pathological? So so the Sun Reveal
ought to be even more shocking than it is, or

(01:07:10):
maybe I mean to say less but less shocking. But
but because everything they said all night, you don't know
what's real and what isn't real, because they just say crap,
and and they they will defend to their death that
he is in the math department even if he isn't.
And even then they're like, and so these are four
people who don't have a very good grip on reality

(01:07:32):
or just don't want to, and so so the sun
reveal It's it's sort of inevitable. But it is not
the only lie or half truth or or illusion that
we've heard during the evening, because it's been all full
of just crazy stories and things that may or may
not be true. So it's just kind of the biggest

(01:07:55):
one for sure. But yes, so so I'm gonna say
pivotal moment when we ought realize and sequel that it
is a fictitious child. That is, it's like when the
rugs pulled out from you and you're like what am
I watching? Then?

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
Like what is what has actually been happening this whole time? Yeah,
all right, we are going to take one more break
and then we'll come back to wrap things up. So
Robert I absolutely adore My Nichols. I think he's just
a genius. If someone was unfamiliar with this director, which

(01:08:32):
three films would you suggest that they watch?

Speaker 2 (01:08:35):
This was such a tough question. But the thing about
Nichols is looking over his filmography, he was so of
his time. Do you do you want all three at once?
Or you want tick turns. Okay, I will start with probably, uh,
what would be my number three? We'll do this county

(01:08:57):
backwards style Angels in THEA from two thousand and three.
It was for television, it was on HBO, but it
was six hours long, so I counted as a movie
and he did direct it. And again another adaptation of
a play, or actually in this case two plays, Tony
Kushner's Politzer Prize winning plays about the AIDS crisis, and
so much more. Like every Nichols film, chocola block with big, big,

(01:09:24):
big name actors doing amazing work. I mean, this one
had Meryl Streep and al Pacino and a host of
other people. Emma Emma Thompson was in it as well.
It is brilliant, it is dramatic, It has so much
to say because the Kushner script, and it really definitely
sums up the whole AIDS crisis of that era and

(01:09:45):
the reality of what was going on. And again another
case where he took a very stagey, stagey play with
angels appearing and hallucinations and things and made this brilliant,
brilliant heartbreak film of it. So Angels in America would
be my number three.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
That's why it didn't make my list because I don't
have enough tissues to ever watch it again.

Speaker 2 (01:10:08):
Don't don't start with that one because it is a
lot from one thing in six hours long. But but
and so then my number two is it's a personal
favorite and it's delightful in a lot of ways. On
Postcards from the Edge, super accessible and funny again. Meryl
streep uh and Shirley mcclaim her lifetime twirled up. I

(01:10:35):
want to attatoo and says it twirled up.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
But I love it when she says that she's be
sure to put my eyebrows on before I get buried.
I don't go in the ground without them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:47):
I wonder if Mike Nicholas put that line in being
as how he anyway, No, but uh, it's super accessible.
Gene Hackman is in it briefly. He is hilarious, so
beautiful and of course it was baked on the book
by really missed Carrie Fisher, who we just adore. Yes,
and so much great about this movie. An incredible Nichols

(01:11:08):
is a good introduction to Nichols has one of his
amazing opening tracking shots. He was known for his like
long tracking shot The bird Cage has one that took
three different cameras where they fly in over the water
and outside of Miami Beach and then it goes through
the crowd and then they go into the club and
it's like, yeah, well the post trids from the edge.
I forget how long it is. It's like seven minutes

(01:11:29):
or something. It's like this ridiculous, endless, lengthy tracking shot.
Then the punchline is it gets screwed up at the end,
and Hackman's like, tat you fucking do it again? So
he was kind of even mocking his own film excesses.
But a great love letter to movie making and also
the mother daughter story and one of my favorites in

(01:11:49):
all all ways. But definitely a good, a good Mike
Nichols movie. And then finally for my number one. Much
as I love this movie, it is is you know, Amber,
It's a tough nut to crack. I advocated as being
one of my favorite movies always and everybody should see it.
But I'm gonna run with the graduate, which was super obvious.

(01:12:10):
It was his next movie after this one. Between the
two movies, they got twenty Academy Award nominations. Whatever, even
though it is so set in the nineteen sixties and
that whole time period and that whole you know plastic
U you know one, yeah, plastic mindset. It introduced the

(01:12:31):
unknown Dustin Hoffman and another great cast, another great script
the time by Buck Henry and very funny and again
very very accessible, but very much Mike Nichols movie, with
the same kind of ambivalence about some things and the
same kind of sharp satire that almost goes too far,

(01:12:51):
but it's still totally believable. So I'm gonna say, Graduate,
Postcards and Angels in America.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
All right, that is a great less Now I still
stand by my choices from our episode on Mike Nichols
movie Wolf. But I get to make another list because
this is my show.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
So what was the same list or different?

Speaker 1 (01:13:15):
It's it's different. I can't remember. I'll I'll listen to it,
and I know that one is the same because I
can't not have it. So but to this list, I
have changed a couple around. Uh. From two thousand and one,
Emma Thompson kind of became his muse for a little while,

(01:13:37):
and they did a movie called Wit based on the
play by Margaret Edson, and it's the story of a
professor who reevaluates her life after being diagnosed with terminal cancer.
And it's almost like a one woman play. There are
other characters, but it's really Emma Thompson's show, and it's

(01:13:59):
devas statingly beautiful and she's just amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:14:04):
She co wrote it, adapted it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:06):
I guess I should say yeah. From the play, and
then from nineteen eighty six, the movie Heartburn, starring Meryl
Streep and Jack Nicholson, based on the book by Nora Efron,
telling the story of her marriage to Carl Bernstein. And
I just love Meryl and Jack in this movie, like

(01:14:28):
they are just spectacular, spectacular and the movie is just
so funny, and it, you know, is an early example
of why we all fell in love with Nora Efron.
And then the same movie, of course, my all time
favorite movie ever, Working Girl is I can't not have it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:52):
On any list, Like only why I left it off
my list because.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
You know, I quote it endlessly. I mean, I'll just
burst out six thousand dollars. It's not even.

Speaker 2 (01:15:04):
Leather now I have I have to kind of junk
Cusack and Sigourney Weaver, everybody. It was just amazing. The
the line where Sigourney Weaver's character says, spray me down Pet.
Is that in the movie or is that just in
the trailer?

Speaker 1 (01:15:21):
That's just a tailor.

Speaker 2 (01:15:23):
That's what I thought. Yeah, yeah, because I remember I
saw the movie enjoyed it tremendously, but I had seen
the tailor like ten times, and Sigourney Weaver slays me,
and she like walks up and wants, I guess some
kind of perfume or something. He says like, spray me
down pet to poor little Melanie Griffiths. And when I
sat and watched the movie, I was like, where's my line?

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
Where?

Speaker 2 (01:15:47):
But then and then, of course over the years, I
kind of had forgotten whether it was in the movie.
Movie Okay, yes, I was kind of picked that one too,
because it's one of my favorite Mike Nichols movies and
also one and probably probably not my top ten, but
probably my top hundred, and so much great about the movie.
I knew that I knew you were going to pick it.

Speaker 1 (01:16:05):
Yeah, I was like, oh, and I love This was
the first time I remember seeing Harrison Ford kind of
playing well, honestly playing a character that is probably more
like who he is in real life, where he's kind
of like this nerdy, kind of schlubby guy. He gets like,
you know, mayonnaise on his chin when he's eating you know,

(01:16:27):
his peta, and you know he's kind of dorky, but
like he's a good guy. And that was amazing to see.
You know, Han Solo and Indiana Jones like be just
this kind of nerdy Wall Street guy. All right, let's
go back to uh, Who's Afraid of Virginia? Wolf? Do
we recommend seeing this film? So I'm gonna say, if

(01:16:52):
you want to see the most amazing performances by Elizabeth
Taylor and Richard Burton and you want to know, like
what is the US all about? With these two, like,
definitely watch this movie. But I honestly I will never
probably ever watch it again. You know, they did an
episode of the Office. You talked about different adaptations. There's

(01:17:14):
an episode of the Office called Dinner Party, and it's
exactly this movie only half an hour instead of you know,
two and a half hours. And I literally skip that
episode because it makes my skin crawl and it makes me,
tell me, you hurt. So, you know, if you don't
have the two and a half hours to watch this movie,

(01:17:38):
watch the episode of dinner party and you'll know everything
you need to know. But if you want to give
it a shot, it is available to rent on Prime.
It is free on Canopy with O K. Robert. I
have a feeling you're gonna highly recommend this.

Speaker 2 (01:17:55):
Well, I'm it's gonna rebut your thing about don't watch
the Office episode because it does not have Edward Albi's language.
His language is amazing, and his his it's amazing, and
it did not have Mike Nichols direction, to say nothing
of the performances. I mean the performance.

Speaker 1 (01:18:13):
I mean, if you want to watch an uncomfortable dinner
party where people like want to crawl out the bathroom
window to escape, then.

Speaker 2 (01:18:20):
Yeah for me, Yeah for me. For me that this
is more than some of its parts. I think this
is not not a movie about an uncomfortable dinner party.
This is just like artistry all the way. I I
love it tremendously. I would not just wholesale recommend it
to everybody, though, because it is it is a lot
unique and uh, I mean I have friends who are

(01:18:42):
younger than me who will not watch black and white
movies because they're weird and.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
They're old, and it's like, oh my hea't anyway.

Speaker 2 (01:18:49):
Whatever, Yeah, I know anyway, but but I would so
I would say it's a qualified recommend. If you are
in for a challenge, if you like really great filmmaking,
if you like, you know, complicated storytelling and great acting,
jump in. But if you're more of a popcorn movie person,
pass this movie up and enjoy what you want to

(01:19:09):
see well a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:19:12):
All right, listeners, what do you think of Who's Afraid
of Virginia Wolf? Have you seen it? Did we get
this one right? Did we get this one wrong? Let
us know on social media. We are on Facebook, Instagram,
and x Check out a Film by Podcast dot com
for film and TV articles and our entire library of

(01:19:32):
episodes streaming free. Write to us at a film by
Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns.
We may just read your response on the show and
send you some of film by swag. Robert thank you
as always for your insight. We love having you on
the show, and you can also find Robert and his

(01:19:54):
husband Stephen at area festivals with their Mayrow and Co
dog treats, which are also now available at Jungle gyms.
And to all of you listening to the show, following
us on social media, and subscribing to our Patreon.

Speaker 2 (01:20:08):
We thank you.

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Mike Nichols - Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Mike Nichols - Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?