Ep. 30 - Fresh Sundays: Kathleen Porter-Magee Discusses The Rise In Catholic School Enrollment

In this episode, Jeff Charles speaks with Kathleen Porter-Magee, Adjunct Fellow at the Manhattan Institute and Superintendent of Partnership Schools. They discussed a recent study showing how enrollment at Catholic private schools jumped during the COVID-19 pandemic and how these schools can maintain the momentum in an America in which parents are searching for educational alternatives.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Now this is the FCB Podcast Network. This is a fresh perspective with Jeff

(00:25):
Charles. We're gonna talk about educationand we're gonna talk specifically about Catholic schools,
which are very important when it comesto the issue of school choice,
which is really hot right now,is a big push for it. So,
without further ado, I'm going tobring on my guest. She is
an adjunct fellow at the Manhattan Instituteand also superintendent of Partnership Schools. I

(00:48):
have Kathleen Porter McGee. Welcome tothe program. Thanks so much for having
me. It's good to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited about this
one because I've been wanting I've beentalking a lot about school choice and this
is this is writing your wheelhouse.So before we get into everything, why
don't you tell us a little bitabout yourself. Sure, So, as
you said, I am superintendent atPartnership Schools, So I'll talk a little

(01:10):
bit about what Partnership Schools is.So we are a private school management organization,
So think of it. For anybodythat knows the charter worlds, the
charter school world, there are chartermanagement organizations that run public charter schools.
We are a private school management organization, so we are an independent, nonprofit
organization. We have right now agreementswith two dioceses, the Archdiocese of New

(01:33):
York and the Diocese of Cleveland,where the diocese have turned over full operational
and managerial control over a subset oftheir once struggling urban Catholic schools, and
we have taken on full control ofthem or in charge of all hiring and
firing, all decisions about curriculum instruction, and are also fully financially responsible for
them. So we run now elevenurban Catholic schools. We have four in

(01:57):
Harlem, three in the South bronand this start just hot off the presses
starting this month for in Cleveland,Ohio. We added two schools to our
network in Cleveland this July. Soum, so that's my Dame album.
Yeah, that's cool. I didn'teven know that organizations like that existed.
I just figured private schools, especiallyCatholic schools, would just run their own

(02:19):
stuff, or be run by thediocese or the church or have or it
works. So that's very interesting.It's we're uh, it's we're a rarefied
breather and not that many of usHonestly, I think right now we are
I believe we are the only organizationin the country that has an like an
operational agreement with the diocese like ours, where we have full autonomy and control

(02:40):
over the schools we run. Inexchange, we are fully accountable to the
archdiocese or the diocese. So youare correct, it is unique, um.
And we believe because you know,we know that urban Catholic schools,
the story, particularly for the lasttwenty years, has been a story of
like slow and steady struggle and decline. And so we are part of a

(03:06):
movement to really revitalize the sector ofurban Catholic schools, which we believe are
not just important to the ministry ofthe church, but also critical to the
fabric of K twelve education in America. So we are we are part of
what we hope will be a fledglingand virgeoning movement. So good good.
So now I wanted to ask youabout what you just said, you know,

(03:29):
because I mean, I've always heardabout how a lot of Catholic schools
struggle, I mean private schools,and jo how do they compare to other
private schools, I mean, domost private schools go through this or is
there something specific that Catholic schools dealwith specifically, or yeah, Catholic the
whole. Like, So, theCatholic school sector is unique because it is
the only so it's the largest nonpublic school sector in the world, which

(03:52):
is actually amazing when you think aboutit. And what is unique about the
American system of Catholic schools to theextent that it's a system, because it's
actually really pretty autonomous, but thesystem is the only private school system to
serve low income communities at scale,and so that is what sets it apart.
It's also what leads to some ofthe struggles that we've been facing over

(04:16):
the past twenty years as costs toeducate have increased. We're still nothing compared
to public or charter schools, butstill have increased. So as we face
some financial challenges, the Catholic schoolsthat serve the urban poor have struggled.
And that is unique because most publicschools, you mean, most private schools

(04:36):
serve the elite, and Catholic schoolsthat is not the so it is I
think it's a pretty unique difference.So, Okay, no, that's central.
I didn't know that either. Ididn't realize that Catholic schools were so
involved in serving low income communities,which I mean would again place you at
the center of this whole school choicemovement, because that's one of the things

(05:00):
that we want. We want forall children to be able to have access
to quality education rather than just havingelites being able to send their kids to
private schools. Which is funny becausethe people who oppose school choice, at
least on the politician side, theyhave no problem sending their kids are private
schools. But when it comes toyeah, lower income children. So I

(05:23):
would imagine that they're prov this isgoing to sound bad. They're probably not
too fond of you guys, becauseI mean, these people really don't want
for lower income US peasants to beable to have access to quality private education.
Yeah, I mean that's certainly whatit feels like. I will say
on our end, definitely, thepeople that are fighting choice, we present

(05:43):
an inconvenient truth, right, Soinconvenient because we educate at at least half
the cost. So if you lookat our schools in New York, our
annual cost to educate in New Yorkis about eleven thousand dollars per people.
That's how much it cost us torun our schools. In New York City,
the public schools spend like twenty fiveto twenty seven thousand dollars. So

(06:03):
it reminds me there's like there's likea beautiful Hubris Emmy in the in the
culture of urban Catholic schools that Ilove and like I feel really at home
with. I can remember I grewup in New York in the you know,
in the nineteen late seventies and eighties, and I remember at the time
John Cardinal O'Connor, who was theCardinal of the Archdiocese of New York.

(06:25):
He was a champion for school choice, trying to push it, you know,
very early, and at the timepeople were saying like, oh,
well, of course Catholic schools dobetter. You're able to take the best
and the best. And he said, at the time, okay, fine,
he said to the New York CityDepartment of Education, send us like
you're ten like your hardest educated students, and we will do it better and

(06:46):
we will do it cheaper. Andnobody ever took him up on that offer,
which I think is interesting. Yeah, of course they didn't. They
knew what was going to happen.I mean, so how would I do
want to get into to the reportthat you worked on, and we will,
but I'm kind of curious. Whatdo Catholic private schools do differently as

(07:08):
far as how they educate students.How are they different from the public sector.
Well, I mean the clearest andmost obvious difference. So I believe
that there is no such thing asa values neutral school. And I'll come
back to that in a minute,because, like I think one of the
one of the ways that some folkswho are hostile to school choice, one

(07:30):
of the arguments that they make islike, well, we don't want to
support religious schools because we need toseparate values should not be taught, like
religious values should not be taught inschools. And I believe there's no such
thing as that you're teaching values inschools. We just ut apologetic about the
values we're teaching in schools. Andso I think that's especially nowadays, they're

(07:51):
teaching some values in these public schools. Yeah, and they always have,
right, and that's of course theyhave. You can't it would be imposed
possible to separate values from education.It doesn't even make any sense. The
choices you make, the things youinclude, the things you choose not to
include. Those are all values drivendecisions, which is like I don't and

(08:13):
like, I don't think anybody shouldapologize for that. That's actually super critical
to school effectiveness as far as I'mconcerned. But one of the biggest differences
is that Catholic schools have always beenable to be unapologetic about who we are
kind of at our core, andwhat are the values and what is the
faith that we teach, And soI think that's the biggest difference. There's

(08:37):
like a whole host of other differencesas well. I think Catholic schools have
tended to be, you know alittle bit more kind of traditional in their
approach, like real continue I thinkit's not uncommon when you go to your
average Catholic school to continue to seea focus on you know, great books
or and that's because like, atthe core of Catholic education, like we

(09:00):
believe education is about the search forobjective truth, and so there's there's this
like trying to understand like what istruth, what is beauty and immersing kids
in that from a really early age. That said, obviously, the Catholic
school system is very, very diverse, which I think is Another thing that
some folks may not realize is there'sthere's all kinds, you know, thousands

(09:22):
of Catholic schools. There are allkinds of different Catholic schools, which is
one of I think the beauties ofthe sector as well. Gotcha, Okay,
okay, So I want to Iwant to talk about a report that
you guys worked on for Manhattan Institute, and it showed that Catholic school enrollment
has gone up over the past fewyears. Um, I know, just

(09:46):
like all schools you get, Imean, they took a hit during COVID,
but a lot of these Catholic schoolshave done even more than just recoup
the attendance that they lost before,they've actually grown. Yeah. So can
you share some of the highlights fromthat report? Yes, this was really
good news for a weary sector.Again, like the story of Catholic schools

(10:07):
in America over if you traced itover the past twenty years, it's really
been a story of struggle and inmany cases decline. Thousands of schools of
clothes and they're almost entirely urban Catholicschools that serve immigrant communities, that serve
the urban poor. So it's reallyI think it's a national tragedy. And

(10:28):
so what was so remarkable about twentytwenty one is that this nationwide enrollment increase,
and so overall Catholic school enrollment increasedby about three point eight percent nationwide,
which is amazing when you consider thatpeople like homeschooling increase, people were
pulling their kids out of schools.But when they were pulling their kids out

(10:50):
of public schools, increasingly they werelooking to Catholic schools. And I think
there's a lot of reasons for that. I think we are only just beginning
to understand and the impact that ouryou know, school our COVID related school
mitigation had on kids and on parents, and Catholic schools stood apart from that.

(11:13):
So for there's like I could,I can unpack us in a couple
of different ways. But I thinkone of the most interesting statistics is in
March twenty twenty, Catholic schools wereamong the first to close in some communities,
which is interesting and as sort ofa little known fact. So if
you track, there are a coupleof different places that you can look at
this and you can see that Catholicschools were worried, they were seeing what

(11:35):
was happening on the ground. Evenin the Archdiocese of New York, we
had announced our schools shutdown on Marchthirteenth. The New York City public schools
that same day were saying that theywere going to remain open to Blasio was
saying he would not close. Theyclosed soon afterwards. But essentially Catholic schools
did not wait for anybody else's permission. They were like, this is dire.
We are the epicenter, we arethe national epicenter of a global you

(11:58):
know, outbreak, like this isthis is worrisome. But then flash forward
to August. In September twenty twenty, public schools didn't open, charter schools
didn't open. It was Catholic schoolsthat opened. And the one statistic that
stands out is in September twenty twenty, only thirty four percent of public charter

(12:18):
schools opened from person instruction, Onlyforty three percent of traditional public schools and
ninety two percent of Catholic schools openedfor in person or hybrid instruction, which
is like that dichotomy is it's likethat's the whole game on some level,
because I think what it showed,I think it showed a lot of things,

(12:41):
but one of the things that Ithink it showed is that Catholic schools
one are fearless, right if theycan be in a crisis who they are
responsive to their communities like many Ithink by that time, by September twenty
twenty, we had a sense thatthis was not going away, Like this
was no longer two weeks to stopthe spread. Moment we knew it wasn't

(13:05):
going away. We had learned something. I mean, we had learned everything
about COVID mitigation, but we hadlearned something about it. So we knew
there were things that we could doto keep our communities safe, and we
were responsive to who. We knewthe parents needed it, and we knew
that the kids needed it. Andso I think that that like September twenty

(13:26):
twenty decision set the stage for theenrollment increases that we're seeing today. I
think a lot of a lot ofparents realized that, like there's something different
happening over here, and I'm interested, like just because I want what's best.
We all want what's best for ourown kids, and like this is
a school that seems to be likethinking about like making these decisions motivated by

(13:52):
something different, you know. Youknow what else it shows too. I
mean when they were doing these lockdownorders and having kids learned from home,
I mean, they were making itsound like parents were just gung ho about
this. But if that were thecase, you wouldn't have seen that increase.
Even if you open up early,you wouldn't have seen much of an
increase at all. That shows thatparents wanted their children to be in the

(14:15):
classroom, even despite the risk ofCOVID. And I know that when COVID
first hit, people didn't know whatto expect. We didn't know what was
going on. I mean, ourgovernment didn't, and you know, and
I have a little bit of gracefor how things were handled at first because
we didn't know what was going on. But as time went on, people
figured out, Okay, you know, kids are very unlikely to get the

(14:35):
disease, and if they do,it's not having the same impact. So
they felt safe for putting their kidsback in schools. But the schools didn't
want to do it, so Ican see so it shift further shows that
more parents actually wanted their kids inthe classroom. Well, so you know
what's interesting, This is an anecdote, and I know the plural of anecdote

(14:56):
is not that, but so heexpanded. So we launched. It was
we had our agreement with the Dioceseof Cleveland. We signed it with them
in mid February twenty twenty. Canyou imagine, right, And so we're
like, all, gung ho,We're going to open in July twenty twenty.
We had no idea what was cominglike three weeks later, but so
we launched. We expanded to oursecond diocese in Cleveland, Ohio in summer

(15:20):
twenty twenty, and so we aremaking this reopening decision. Our school the
two schools that we took over initiallywere significantly under enrolled at the time,
like really like on a razor's edgein terms of their sustainability. We marched
forward and we reopened as we didin our New York schools, and we
literally had the experience of parents drivingby our two schools, seeing children in

(15:43):
the playground, stopping like screeching,churning in and saying, your schools open
right now? And we were like, yes, we are, and they
were like, where do I signup? And we are enrollment in our
two flagship Cleveland schools increased by fortypercent in our first month of opening.
And I mean a huge part ofthat was CMSD, which is the Cleveland

(16:06):
Public School District, was closed andwe were not. And I and parents
were like, this is something thatbecause we you know, as parents,
we know how how important like communityis to flourishing, right like we see
that in our kids. And soI think that I do think that that

(16:26):
decision is made. It made ahuge, huge, huge difference. I
guess the second thing, sorry,a second thing is just like the leadership,
because I will say, I don'twant to paint the picture that when
Catholic schools were reopening in twenty twenty, this was easy. It was actually
terrifying. Like we I was,it was hard because we experienced all the

(16:48):
same fear. Our teachers experienced allthe same fear, and but we just
like we did what we could.And one of the things that's been one
of my biggest takeaways, and thisand so interesting as a school leader through
COVID, our network leader, isthat sometimes the way you build buy into
something is just by doing it.And so when we reopened on the first

(17:12):
day of school, because we hadin twenty twenty, we had both options.
You could either come in for inperson or you could remain online and
we would do remote learning. Andwhat we found is it like it started
with not that many students coming toin person, and within the first week
of us being opened, when likeall you know what didn't break loose,

(17:37):
parents were like, Okay, Ifeel a little bit better about this.
And then they started to come backin and we had some schools very quickly
get to almost one hundred percent ofkids back in. But it took that
moment of just saying we know thisis the right decision and we're just gonna
do it. Yeah. Yeah.You had to create that tipping point when
people feel safe because they see otherpeople do it. Then they're like,

(17:59):
okay, here we go. Yeah, let's go, let's give it a
try. Yeah. Yeah. Sowhat would you say was the most surprising
finding from this report from the study? Like, what surprised you the most
about this? Oh? What surprisedme the most about it? Um?
You know, I guess maybe whatsurprised me the most was where I guess

(18:23):
maybe a two things. So oneis that this was a nationwide increase,
So the NCA. So we usedNCA, which is the national Catholic Education
Association. We partnered with them.Annie Smith, who was a co author,
worked for the NCAA, and theyallowed us to like dive deep into
the weeds of this enrollment data,which was really helpful and one of the
things that I think I was amazedbiased that this was a true nationwide increase

(18:47):
in twenty twenty one, which Ithink says something because I think what I
would have expected, I knew.I felt like I knew that some regions
were going to have massive increases inCatholic schoo one moment, So like I
could bet that Virginia was going tohave massive increases because like what you saw

(19:07):
in Virginia, especially in Northern Virginia, you saw public schools stayed closed longer
than almost any other jurisdiction in thecountry. You saw the parent frustration in
Northern Virginia bubbling up not just aboutschool closure decisions, but also about some
other sort of values driven decisions thatwere being made. Like you saw that
as a national story bubbling up.So I expected that Virginia was going to

(19:33):
see an increase, But what reallysurprised me is that every single region of
the country saw an increase to greateror lesser degrees. And I think that
that I think that that tells astory that's even more interesting than the overall
increase, because I think the overallincrease could have been driven by a couple
of states, but it wasn't.It was driven by every region, and

(19:56):
I think, like so, Ithink that was probably the biggest surprise.
I think the other surprise was sowe looked into we tried to dive into
the weeds of a couple of differentstates, in particular, so Virginia we
looked into. Florida was another statethat we looked into. And what was
interesting is that demographically, so thenumber of people that moved to Florida during

(20:17):
COVID was relatively high. So peoplelike moved out in New York, it
seems like they went to I don'tknow that that's exactly true, but that
appears to be. They came fromCalifornia to California right exactly. And so
what was interesting in Florida is eventhough the number of K twelve students in
the state increased, public school enrollmentwas flat, but both charters and Catholic

(20:38):
schools increased. And again I thinkwhat that like, these like little pockets
of information are telling a story oflike parent demand for choice in a different
way than I think we've seen recently. M Okay, these days it seems

(21:02):
like everybody's talking, but no oneis actually listening to the things they're saying.
Critical thinking isn't dead, but it'sdefinitely low on oxygen. Join me
Kia Davis on Jeff Listen to yourselfevery week as we reason through issues big
and small, critique our own ideas, and learn to draw our talking points
all the way out to their logicalconclusions. Subscribe to Just Listen to Yourself

(21:23):
with Kia Davis, an FCB radiopodcast on Apple, on Spotify, iHeart,
or wherever you get your podcasts now. I did because I was looking
at the chart here and I'm seeingthat, you know, obviously like Idaho,
New Hampshire, Colorado, I mean, they had the biggest increases,
but the ones I had the leastarm that it looks like maybe they lost

(21:45):
some. I'm seeing Wyoming, NewYork, West Virginia, Delaware, Texas,
Like this doesn't really seem to bea red or blue state issue,
at least when it comes to theones who didn't increase that much. What
were you kind of noticing there,like for the reasons that didn't experience as
much of an increase or maybe hada little bit of a decrease. What

(22:06):
were some of the reasons for that. Yeah, So I think there's two
things going on there. So thatchart actually looked at a two year So
we did is we dove deep intothe single year, so between October twenty
twenty in October twenty twenty one,that's when we saw the nationwide increase.
But we also wanted to zoom outand see a two year what happened between
twenty nineteen and twenty twenty one,because that's the whole COVID story. And

(22:27):
so what happened the whole COVID storywas like the first year of COVID,
between twenty nineteen and twenty twenty,Catholic school enrollment did decrease, driven like
most places, by a real sharpdecline in pre K and kindergarten. And
then in twenty twenty two or twentytwenty one, there was that massive increase,
the three point eight percent nationwide increase, driven again in part by a

(22:51):
massive increase in PreK and lower elementaryenrollment. So that chart you're looking at
actually shows the two year story.And so some of those states at the
bottom where they had the largest firstyear drop and the smallest second year rebound.
So New York State is one.So New York State was hit really
hard in the first year of COVIDand was actually forced to close a lot

(23:17):
of schools. So what happened inthe first year of COVID was that some
states lost their infrastructure. Right,So like you close the school, you
lose the capacity to expand. Ispart of what happens. Like you just
like the schools are gone, sothere's a limited amount you can grow.
It doesn't totally explain the story,but it's part of it. I state,
like Wyoming, it's just such asmall number. So like Wyoming technically

(23:38):
has the largest drop, but itwas like two hundred kids or something,
right, So like it's just thatit's there's just not that many Catholic school
students in Wyoming. So and sothat's so the story is like one of
some regions of the country experienced largernumbers of school closures and year one which
impacted their a bill need to reboundin year two. And I do think

(24:03):
for like Catholic school leaders that's partof what we have to be cautious about,
Like it is not a given.I'm hopeful that the twenty twenty one
rebound is the beginning of a longterm revitalization of a sector that we all
need. But that's on us,Like, well, it's on two people.
Policymakers need to expand choice, sothat's something we can all do,

(24:27):
but also Catholic school leaders. Weneed to seize the moment and take control
of this moment to drive change.And I think that I think there are
a number of lessons that we shouldbe grappling with internally as well. Okay,
yeah, we're going to talk aboutthat because I saw that in your
report. I want to talk aboutgoing forward, but I also wanted to

(24:48):
go back to the idea that reopeningthe schools earlier is what pushed a lot
of this. But what other factorsdo you think are at play? Because
I mean, I'm sure that thatwas one of the main contributors, if
not the main contributor as far asopening up early, But what what other
factors are motivating parents to make theswitch from public to Catholic specifically. Yeah,

(25:11):
so I can only speak an anecdotehere because I don't have the data,
you know, as much data toback it up, but when I
can say anecdotally, and it'll beinteresting to see, like as we gather
more survey data and learn more aboutwhat motivated parent decisions, I think we'll
be able to give even more colorto this. But I kind of feel
like there were three things going onthat came into sharp relief in the past

(25:32):
two and a half years. Oneof them was obviously COVID and school's response
to COVID, which we you know, we talked about. I think a
second thing is like suddenly during UMCOVID, especially during remote learning, you
got, as parents, like wegot a window into our kids instruction that
we have never like literally never hadbefore. Maybe you had visited a school

(25:55):
once or twice, but to everytime you're walking by your child's computer to
see what's going on, it justengages you in a different way. And
I think it may also sort ofchange what is your top priority in a
school that you're that you're looking for. So I think that's a second thing
UM that that changed like over thepast two and a half years. And

(26:17):
then a third thing that I thinkthis year that we're in right or that
we just ended. I guess umthat also changed is the issues of schools
safety. I think one of thethings that we've seen around the country in
the in the massive sort of returnto school in twenty twenty two, is
we've seen a lot across the board, a lot of spikes of discipline and

(26:40):
safety issues in schools. And Ithink that the combination of those three things,
like each of the I'm not likeCatholic schools are not perfect, like
we're always working, we're always tryingto improve, but on those three things,
Catholic schools compare very favorably. Oneand the way we responded to COVID
two. I think in terms ofthe instruction, like what kids are immersed
and every day, like math that'srigorous and worth doing, like books that

(27:03):
are worth reading, like I thinka lot of Catholic schools like are just
really thoughtful and do a really goodjob with that. And then when it
comes to school safety, you know, Catholic schools have always have always stood
apart, even in some of themost dangerous communities, as being these beacons
of like safety and hope. Andso I think the combination of those three

(27:26):
things has really made Catholic schools standout. Yeah, I mean, I'm
sure it's a plus. At y'allaren't teaching about critical race orry and helping
a children transition to other genders behindtheir parents' backs too. So yeah,
But when you bring up safety,that's an interesting issue because that's that's not
one that I hear about when I'mhaving these conversations. Can you speak a

(27:48):
little bit more on that? Areyou talking about with you know, students
fighting or mass shootings or Yeah,I guess I'm talking more on the small
scale, like the fighting, thediscipline issues like one of the And we
experienced this right, So it wasfunny. So as we were preparing for
the twenty twenty one twenty twenty twoschool years, so I was working with
our principles and our academic deans andour teachers preparing to like, welcome back

(28:12):
everyone, because we remember in twentytwenty twenty twenty twenty one, we had
most kids back, but not all. And in twenty in this year,
we you know, remote instruction wasdone. We were back to like we're
all here, We're all coming toschool every day. That's that's what we
need. And so we knew thatthere was going to be a transition for
a couple of reasons. One,we had an explosion of enrollment. So

(28:33):
we are in New even so Imentioned in Cleveland, our enrollment exploded by
forty percent in New York and explodedby fifteen percent. So we had hundreds
and hundreds of students who were comingto us who had previously been in public
schools and had literally never they hadn'tset foot in a classroom possibly ever for
our lower elementary or in eighteen monthsfor our you know, middle upper elementary,

(28:59):
and middle school, which meant allof the norms of like classroom culture
and discipline and expectations, if theyhad ever been set, were lost.
And so we had to be incrediblyintentional in our early months of this year
in resetting all of those norms andexpectations. And I think that and even

(29:22):
with that, we definitely saw youknow, more kind of like more struggles.
I mean, I think it wasa smaller scale stuff and more called
home to mom and dad, youknow more you know, disciplinary challenges.
And that was when we were fullyprepared for that. I think if you
then magnify that and expand it tolike what a lot of the large especially

(29:47):
the large traditional public schools were dealingwith, and especially the large traditional public
schools who may have struggled with schoolculture pre COVID. Now they're bringing back
in kids that have lost those normsas we all have. And I think
that I think just the daily disciplinehas become overwhelming and in some places it
has bubbled up into you know,borderline dangerous with with you know, violence

(30:14):
and fighting and um So, Ithink that has been a bigger issue than
maybe we're talking about gotcha, gotcha. Um So when it comes to attracting
you students, I mean, whatare the most common obstacles that Catholic schools
are face, have face, andeven will face going forward when it comes
to attracting more people. So Ithink there's a number of different things.

(30:37):
So I think there's a couple ofexternal factors, but I think there are
also barriers that we erect ourselves asCatholic school leaders. Obviously not intentionally.
We're not trying to keep like oneof them. Yeah, we don't want
students coming here right exactly, thatwould be crazy. We're struggling to the
rollment. We want to open ourdoors wide and welcome all. So I
think one of the external things isI think some people may not realize that

(31:00):
Catholic schools are welcoming to all,Like you do not have to be Catholics
who attend a Catholic school. Andin fact, many of our students,
I mean in our Cleveland schools,almost none of our students are Catholic.
In our New York schools about sixtysomething percent of our students are Catholic.
So we are welcome to all.And some people ask, well, why,
like if you're Catholic schools, andI always go back. There was

(31:22):
a quote by James Cardinal Hickey,who is the Archbishop of Washington, DC,
a number of years ago, andhe said, we don't educate our
students because they are Catholic. Weeducate them because we are Catholic. And
I think that that is like reallylike core, particularly in urban Catholic schools,
that is core to our mission.And so we welcome all. And

(31:44):
so I think one of the externalfactors that is a barrier to enrollment growth
is that people may not realize thatthat we genuinely are open and welcome all,
and in fact, we have lotsof folks who are of different faiths,
you know, other Christian faiths.We have some Muslim students, like
who just families who really love havinga faith based school, even if the

(32:07):
faith in the school is different fromtheirs. So I think that's one of
the external factors. Obviously another externalfactor is that you know, roughly half
of our states still don't provide choice, right, so there's more And now
we have this really interesting we operatethe four schools in Cleveland, Ohio,
where our students have access to taxcredits and vouchers, and then we have

(32:29):
seven schools in New York City wherethere is absolutely no public funding for private
schools. So we live in bothworlds, which is interesting, but that's
another barrier to enrollments. So likein our New York City schools, you
know, we our mission is toserve you know, families that are living
in under resource communities, and soit is a it is a huge sacrifice

(32:51):
that they make. Like the medianincome of the students we serve in New
York is something like I think it'slike thirty four thousand dollars a year is
the median family in like the mostexpensive city in the world, And we
subsidize obviously the lines serve that butthey do have to pay something to get
there, and so it's amazing tothink of the sacrifices they make to make

(33:15):
that choice possible. So school choiceto the second barrier, that's that internally
we get in our own way sometimes. And I think there are a couple
of ways that we get in ourown way, and one of them is
that we erect these massive barriers toentry for good reason. It's like the
classic like really good intentioned but poorlyexecuted ideas. And so we ran into

(33:39):
this at partnership. So in ourseven New York schools, particularly in twenty
twenty, we also experienced an enrollmentdecline and we took a pause and we
were like, we need to understandwhat's actually happening here, and so we
you know, we're data driven.We pulled all the data and tried to
understand what was telling us. Andwhat we realized was that in or her

(34:00):
to qualify for a scholarship, youhad to like jump through so many paperwork
barriers. It was like it washoped that like you and I would have
trouble meeting, and so families incrisis exactly the families we want to serve.
No way they could have met them. So that was something we were

(34:20):
doing to get in our own way. And so one of the things that
we did in leading into twenty twentyone was we removed the paperwork back.
We completely streamlined the application process.It is a two page application. Now
you get the answer that day,you know exactly what's happening. And so
that was a that was a massivebarrier to entry. Then again was erected
for a good reason but unintentionally keptkept parents out. I think, maybe

(34:45):
just to put a final point onthat, like when we looked at the
data, what we found is thatit was something like eighty percent of the
families that ended up not enrolling ofour in our schools took more than a
week to complete their paperwork, solike it just took them too long and
they and they just it became toomuch. Um. I think another is

(35:05):
that there's a little bit of anadmissions versus and open to all mindset,
So like there's a little bit ofthis mindset that's still like we want to
be selective, and I joke thatyou can be as selective as your wait
list allows, Like if you're strugglingto fill your seats, like you need
to figure out how to serve thecommunity that needs you, not shut out

(35:30):
the ones that are more challenging.Um And so I think that's a second
barrier that we unintentionally erect for ourselves. Gotcha. Yeah, that was That
was pretty enlightening because I don't knowthat much about Catholic schools, buddy.
I mean it makes sense. Imean, the eighty percent of the ones
who didn't end up unrolling took aweek to do the paperwork. That means

(35:51):
that the paperwork there is too muchof it. I mean Vactley can make
it too onerous. People, peopleare going to give up, you know
exactly. It was like crazy things. You had to submit your most recent
you know, tax forums and likeyou know, you needed to get you
know, notarized letters. It justlike and you don't wonder it's like the
classic. It's almost like the classiclike um effective, like unintended consequences of

(36:17):
bureaucracy and like you kind of knowwhy these fences were built at one time,
but it's like did we ever takea step back and ask ourselves are
they necessary? So that's what we'vetried. Yeah, So so with this
increase, I mean, you don'twant this to be like a one time
bum you wanted to keep going.So what do you think that Catholic schools
need to do to keep this momentumgoing? Yeah, I mean I think

(36:40):
a couple things. So one,I think we absolutely have to look at
our barrier's centry and we need tolook at the things that are within our
control. And I guess maybe theway they think about this as a mindset
shift, right, So, likeI think there's a piece of because Catholic
schools face legitimate challenges, particularly innon choice states, and so but I
think that when you face like legitimatechallenges, it becomes like a defeatism,

(37:06):
a mindset of defeatism, like thisis something that happens to us. And
so I think the first change thatneeds to happen is like we need to
realize that we control more of ourown destiny than we might think. We
don't control everything, but there's alot that we can do. And so
I think one is that mindset shift. And then I think second, I
think we need to think differently abouthow we support and sustain particularly our Catholic

(37:32):
schools that serve under resource communities,like we can't run them in the South
Bronx the way we run them inWestchester County in Scarsdale, like they cannot
be run the same way it hadbecause you're serving a different community. And
I think that's where so at partnershipschools, like our arrangement with the diocese

(37:57):
is unique and it's meant to serveexactly that purpose. Like are by mission,
We're never going to take on anyschools in suburban areas because we are
specifically here to serve a need,which is to put Catholic schools that serve
the underserved on the path to longterm sustainability and academic explos And so I
think that dioceses need to think differentlyabout who do I call to provide support

(38:23):
for the schools that are most struggling. And I think that that can be
hard because dioces and leaders rightly thinkholistically about their whole diocese. But dioceses
are massive and they're diverse, andso like I think you almost need to
like chunk it out and think,like, what are some non traditional governance
structures that can support our different communitiesdifferently and that can serve out our ministry

(38:49):
of the church differently. And Ithink there are a lot of different organizations
that are doing that. So,like I think Partnership Schools is a unique
organization. I think another is StoRay. So Christo Ray is a national
Catholic schools network that runs high schools. And part of the way that they
make themselves sustainable is that they actuallyget corporate sponsorship. And so every Christo

(39:15):
Ray student works excume me. Hegoes to school four days a week and
works one day a week, andso five students share one corporate job and
they get that salary gets paid tothe network. And so which is like
and the Christo Ray is an amazingnetwork. We send a lot of our
because our schools are K three eight, so we send a lot of our
graduates to Christo Ray in New Yorkand in Cleveland, UM. And it's

(39:37):
like that is a that is aunique, like non traditional way to address
the sustainability problem but also to likeform kids in really interesting ways, like
they are getting on the job experiencefrom this. Yeah, it's this is
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(40:01):
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(40:45):
you get your podcast that's out Lawsthe Outlaws Radio Show. And so it
sounds like, I mean, itsounds like a lot more out of the
box type thinking. Is nice lookingfor other creative ways to get support for
Catholic schools but also benefit the students, because that's what that solution does.

(41:07):
I mean, you get your funding, but you're also offering something to people's
kids that they're not going to getat a public school. I mean work
experience, I mean real work experience, like you're doing a job, like
yeah, yeah, that's great.So how how do you see the future
of this? I mean, areyou optimistic? Do you? I mean,

(41:28):
do you see signs that people aregoing to that people within these Catholic
schools and the dioceses are are onboard with what you're what you just laid
out, or is a resistance becauseI know there're always people who don't want
to change, and then you knowthey want to have the same broke don't
fix it. I mean, Godbless them, you gotta love them.
But I mean, you got tobe able to move forward. So what

(41:49):
how do you how do you seethis shaping up? I mean what what?
What? Where are the signs showingyou right now? Uh? So?
Yes? And the Catholic Church isthe oldest bureaucracy in the world and
so it is not change. Soyes, I feel that. Um,
I am an eternal optimist like andI, um, you know my dad,

(42:10):
my dad, who's wonderful. UM, and he when I was like
in college, he shared um aquote with me that I still have written
down and I think about it always, which is great. Tasks are rarely
achieved by cynics, and so Ibelieve be optimistic. Um, if we're
going to actually affect change. SoI am one hundred percent optimistic that we

(42:31):
then it is within our power tochange the trajectory UM that has been for
the past twenty years a decline ofurban Catholic schools. I think there are
signs um that that um that otherpeople share this optimism, and I think
we're seeing signs of that bubble upin a number of different ways. So
one is I think UM philanthropy andphilanthropists, Like obviously a huge part of

(42:55):
of what we need to do toinnovate is to to sort of generate some
philanthrophic support for outside of the boxthinking and non traditional options, Like you
need some of that seed funding tobe able to get the flywheel moving and
to be able to effect change.And so we've been really fortunate. I
mean, we wouldn't exist if itweren't for our most loyal and committed donors

(43:17):
and philanthropists, and so I thinkthey're like a big part of the story
and a big part of the driversof innovation. I think also like our
expansion, So when we started ourorganization started in New York City. It
was actually essentially started by a groupof philanthropists. So they had been giving
two Catholic schools in the Archdiocese ofNew York for twenty years and they took

(43:40):
a step back and they said,okay, wait a second, are we
throwing good money after bad like byjust throwing money into the existing system,
are we actually changing anything? Andso they came up with this idea and
negotiated it with Cardinal Dolan in NewYork, who, to his credit,
like you know, as a leaderof yoldis rot Jay the world, was

(44:00):
willing to cast into the deep andtry something very new. And they said,
okay, we'll take on the financialburden in exchange for for for all
autonomy. And it was an experimentat first, but one that one that
worked. And so then we said, okay, we if we're going to
think about how we're going to affectchange outside of our flagship schools in New

(44:22):
York, we have to expand toa second diocese because we have to prove
that this is just not something idiosyncraticthat only rests in New York. And
so what gives me hope is thathow we've been embraced and welcomed in Cleveland,
like the superintendent of the Diocese ofCleveland, Frank Olin, has been

(44:44):
an amazing partner, you know,bringing us in, helping to block and
tackle so that we can take onthese challenges. The bishop, we've actually
now had two bishops actually in theshort time we've been there, their deputies
and so they their willingness to justtry something new has been I think has

(45:07):
provided really great hope. So Ithink because of that, because of our
own success, because of their theirwillingness to welcome change and embrace something new,
it's given me tremendous hope. Andthen I think, coupled with our
part so we partner with advocates inthe school choice arena all the time because

(45:29):
we know, like we got todo this together. They need quality options
and we need school choice. Solike we are, we are peers and
partner. And so I think thesuccess that organizations like invest in ED or
like the American Federation for Children,the success that they're starting to see in
the policy world is another thing thatgives me hope. So I feel like

(45:51):
I feel like we are at weare on the precipice of what I hope
will be a completely new story aboutwhat the future of choice and public schools
look like. Okay, good,Hey, And my last question actually has
to do with what you just mentioned. I mean, as far as school
choice, I mean, when itcomes to the political solution, I mean,
how you guys hand, I mean, I don't know how much you

(46:12):
can do because I know a lotof these are nonprofits. You can't really
you know, advocate for legislation andcandidates and stuff like that. So I
understand that, but I mean,what are you seeing politically as far as
what Catholic schools are doing or atleast some of the organizations that might work
on their behalf who can actually advocatefor policy. Yeah, absolutely, so
there's a lot. And actually,so it's true as a five O one
C three you can't you can't lobbyyour advocate unless it's for something in your

(46:37):
in your organization's interests. So likeI can't go lobby for something that has
nothing to do with us. Butactually we can be involved in advocacy for
our state levels. Yeah, andwe are happy to know that. So,
I mean, like we don't it'snot our core mission. So we
try to be supportive to our partners. But we're not driving it. So
like whatever you guys need that wecan provide, we are happy to provide.

(46:59):
So we have parent advocates who becomeparent voices for choice. Um,
you know, we have like aspart of so as I mentioned, you
know, I'm an adjunct fellow atthe Manhattan Institute, so you know,
try to write on policy and writeon Catholic schools and try to contribute to
that dialogue. So we just tryto be good, good partners in that
in that effort as much as possible. In terms of the landscape, I

(47:20):
think there are a number of thingsthat that we're you know, excited about.
I think that the the push that'shappened at the at the state level,
but also at the national level throughthere's a couple of different things pushing
for essays, educational savings accounts.So there was a move during COVID a
number of states passed essays, andwe actually took a look at it and
it looked based on our analysis,we found that Catholic school enrollment increased more

(47:45):
in the states that had just recentlypassed essays than in others, which I
thought was interesting as well, notmaybe like not surprising, but interestingly great
enough, So I think like seeingsome of that, I think is really
really heartening. But then also there'san organization called invest in It that's been
that actually UM has been pushing forwarda bill for a federal tax credit,

(48:09):
which would be great UM and Ithink Senator Tim Scott and a few other
senators introduced it just a couple ofweeks ago. And so some of that
momentum and movement is happening a welland is happening as well, and that,
like I mean, the ultimate goalis to have state level choice so
that like tax money goes follows thechild. But in the intim if there

(48:31):
was something like a federal tax creditfor states like New York or California where
it feels almost impossible to get statelevel choice past, having something federal would
be a huge, huge, hugeboon to parents and to and to schools

(48:52):
like ours. Awesome. Do youknow the name of the legislation that that
that they introduced us at the federallevel or you know what? I cannot
remember? It isn't that shameful.I should have it in front of me.
I can definitely find it for youand I will send it to you.
Yeah, it was recently. Itwas just recently, really, so
I'll pin you offline. Okay,sweets. Wait, Well, this was

(49:13):
an excellent conversation, very enlightening forme because if there's a lot of stuff
I didn't know about Catholic schools,I'm sure other people don't know I'm either.
Um. But so we would lovelyhave to have you back on to
talk about more of this because I'msure you're gonna be coming out with more
data. Um. But before wesign off, why don't you everybody know
where they can find you? Yes, so you can find me on Twitter
at a at k Porter McGee sothat's k P R T e R.

(49:34):
M age. And you can findPartnership Schools at Partnership NYC dot org or
Partnership cle dot org. So PartnershipNew York City or a Partnership Cleveland.
And we'd love to have post folkscheck us out and join the fight.
Awesome. Well, thanks for joiningme. We'll have to do it again
so soon. I would love it. Thanks so much. This has been

(50:02):
a presentation of the FCB podcast Network, where real talk lifts visit us online
at FCB Podcasts dot com.