December 18, 2022 • 53 mins
In this episode, Megan Almon of the Life Training Institute joined the program to discuss the Supreme Court's ruling which overturned Roe v. Wade and the ongoing abortion debate. She shared how she approaches arguments over the abortion issue and discussed how the pro-life movement should proceed after the Supreme Court's ruling.
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Now this is the FCB Podcast Network. This is a fresh perspective with Jeff
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Charles. Now, now I actuallyknow without further ado, I'm going to
bring on my guests. I havewith me Megan Almond with the Life Training
Institute and Summit Ministries. Welcome ofthe program system. Thank you, Jeff.
Good to be here. Yeah,I'm bad to have you one.
You have a lot of knowledge onthese things. So before we get into
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everything, why don't you tell usa little bit about yourself. Yeah,
sure, thing. Um well,I live in Colorado, but I am
a Georgia native. So I wasborn and bred in Georgia. Moved out
here about four years ago in myhus been trip, began working full time
with Summit Ministries, and we areso happy to be where we are.
I come from a family of acrobats. My husband and I were both gymnasts.
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We both attended the University of Georgia. And we have two children and
they two are you know, allthe flips, all the climbing, all
of the handstands, all around thehouse all the time. So our lives
are are busy with Life Training Institute. I love the benefit of getting to
be with my children and be athome, but often I'm on the road
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and traveling and speaking to groups onthe topic of pro life apologetics, which
is not in any way, youknow, saying I'm sorry for the pro
life view or the larger Christian worldviewin which it rests, but I'm giving
reasons and I'm helping people understand howdo we have these conversations. Well,
so I talk to a lot ofpeople who agree with me and a lot
of people who disagree with me,and I believe it or not, those
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conversations can go very well. Sothat's a little bit about me. And
yeah, so so co life apologetics. I'd never heard of that. Anytime
you hear the word apologetic, I'mthinking of religion, Christianity, thinking of
you know, people who who wetherand defend the faith. But I never
heard of pullife apologetics. But it'sbeen needed, It's been needed for for
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a long time, and it's goingto continue to be needed. And we're
going to talk a little bit abit about that. But what can you
kind of just kind of walk usthrough how you even got involved in the
space in the first place, Like, how did you get to where you
are right now? I'm doing whatyou do great question. My undergraduate degree
was in journalism, so I actuallyworked as a journalist when I was first
married. I worked for a smallcommunity newspaper and did a mainly wrote feature
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stories about people because I was trainedin magazine writing, and so that that
newspaper let me get away with alot as far as writing like a magazine
writer. But however, we weresmall enough where I would occasionally be sent
to cover of community events, andone evening show enough, my editor came
out of her office, handed mea camera and said, you need to
go cover this event. There's freefood, and so I went. And
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the speaker that night was Scott Klusendorf. He was speaking at our local pregnancy
Resource centers annual fundraising banquets. Forthose who are familiar and those who aren't,
Pregnancy resource centers are largely run byvolunteers around our nation, and many
of them have one major fundraising eventeach year, and that's how they raised
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the majority of their money to useand help women and families for that year.
And so I heard Scott speak,and he was speaking about the very
things he has now trained me tospeak about. But I wasn't familiar with
the topic either. I just knewthere was a man who's obviously a very
godly man standing up on stage talkingabout an issue that it's very difficult to
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talk about with a group of people, and doing it in such a way
that I thought, I bet somebodycould ask him just about anything and he
might not know the answer, buthe's not going to be shaken by it.
There was just a groundedness about him, and I thought, whatever that
is, those are the stories Iwant to start telling. And so,
through a series of events, ittook about a year and a half,
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I started reading all of the Christianapologetics material I could get my hands on,
and pro life Apologetics is a segmentof that, and I ended up
going back to school with my husband'sfull support. He said, I think
you could do something really special withthis interest that you have, and so
I earned a master's degree in apologeticsfrom Biola University and Christian Apologetics and came
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full circle by joining Scott at LifeTraining Institute. Because for me, it
had always been about people. Humansfascinate me, Human dignity fascinates me,
why we matter, and the beautyof just being human within the limitations that
we have. I love talking aboutthose types of things and reading about them,
and so not only did I knowenough about a boar to know that
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I needed to do something to helpbring an into it, and so this
is this is the route that Iwent. But also when we talk about
these issues, we talk about prolife apologetics, we're digging up underneath it
to get to the heart of whatit even means to be human, what
it means to be valuable as ahuman being. Those are the things that
bring me back every time. Andso Scott has trained me from the ground
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up at Life Training Institute. Hewould tell you that I bugged him until
he hired me. That is notthe way I would tell the story,
but that works. I just wantedto learn from him, and I was
persistent and he finally gave in.I guess it is funny how how it
works that way. I mean,you go on this random assignment, you
got your free food, you gotyour camera, you can just doing your
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thing, and then you see thisguy who aspires you, and then it
gets to where it's like it's likewhen you look back, you can see
what God was doing, and thenyou went to where you are right now
working under him. That's that's anincredible story. Oh yeah, yeah,
so, And it's also interesting whatyou've mentioned when you talk about the overall
debate, because when we think aboutabortion, we're thinking, Okay, we
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don't want to kill babies, andthat alone is worthy of fighting for.
But you're right because it does bringup other issues like what does it mean
to be human? What does itmean to be a life? What does
that mean in relation to what theword says? And that can open up
a whole other world of conversation.I would imagine that it has for you
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on many occasions, like it goesa lot deeper than saving lives. It
also gets to even the spiritual aspects. Yeah, what would that be fair
to say? Absolutely, it's fairto say. Um No. I don't
know if I saw this going intostudying pro life apologetics in particular, But
these conversations, because they touch onthose things, lead to gospel conversations more
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than any of the other conversations thatI have with students are otherwise, because
those are our deepest questions. Welong to know who we are. We
long to know that we're seeing thatwe are, that we matter, that
our life has purpose, and sowe want you know, we want the
answers to those things, and theworld is answering those questions for us.
What does it mean to be human? Why are human beings valuable in all
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different kinds of ways? And aswe teach our students here at Summit,
you know, ideas have consequences.The answers that come from from those questions
result in ideas. Those ideas resultin beliefs when they're adopted, and that
has consequences for the way that weview ourselves and the way that we view
others in the world around us.When I talk to students about the issue
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of abortion, I typically begin byhelping them understand that, at the very
basic level, when a world thatallows abortion, that's a world that assumes
the idea that there are some humanbeings who simply matter more than other human
beings, interestingly enough, just tomake the connection, that is the same
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undercurrent to every other major injustice thatwe see and that we rightly stand against.
So I want them to see thelink between those things. And then,
of course it's my job as theone giving the reasons, to do
the work of making a case forthe pro life view, and in turn,
I hope that helps them have sometools so that when they are in
conversations they can do the same.Yeah, I think you're right, I
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mean, and that is the undercurrent. It is the idea that some lives
are more about matter more than others, and it's you. In order to
perpetuate and evil like that, youhave to view that person as less than
human. If you're going to enslavesomebody, you have to view them as
less than human, unless you're areally sick person, because if you view
them as a human equal to you, you can't do it. The same
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thing with war. I mean alot of times in war times, the
armies are trained to see the enemyas sub human, as monsters, because
if you see them as actual humans, you're going to hesitate before you pull
that trigger. So I can so, I guess you use my question how
does that? How does that figureinto the conversations that you have as a
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polite apologist? How I'm trying tofigure how to ask this, Well,
how does that does that influence theconversations that you're having with people who don't
agree with Yeah, Um, well, let me tell you about how we
would make the case, and thenmaybe we can tease that down to how
that might work out into a conversation, because the first thing we have to
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learn to do in our conversations aboutabortion, because right now, you know,
abortion is the topic of the ofthe day. It has been for
quite some time, but that isramped up with the recent decisions by the
Supreme Court, and so I thinkthat people are talking about abortion, it
seems, but at the same timethey're kind of talking about everything but abortion.
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The thing that makes abortion so complexis that there are many hard things
that bump into the abortion issue.It is very complex emotionally and psychologically,
that is obvious. It is complexpolitically, we've seen, it is complex
economically, all of these things thatbump into the issue. But morally speaking,
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abortion is a very simple issue.The whole debate hinges on a single
question, and if we can learnto bring our conversations back to that question,
then we can have real conversations aboutit when we're not missing each other.
I think so often we try tomake this kind of in us and
them type of issue, But atthe heart of it, like we've already
pointed out, this is a thisis a human rights issue. This is
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an issue about identity and our humanity. So our real battle is one against
of course sin. As Christians wewould say that, but also ideas.
And that's what Paul pointed out inSecond Corinthians, chapter ten. You know,
our weapons are not weapons of theflesh, but divinely powerful for the
destruction of strongholds. I think hewas talking about something like what we would
call world views now there, becausehe goes on to talk about our job.
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Our weapons are powerful to tear downarguments and opinions raised against the knowledge
of God. We are to takethoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.
So that's where the battlefield is,and so often we miss that. The
center, the question of the centerof the whole debate has to be what
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is the unborn? Like, whatis this thing that we're even talking about.
I give a simple illustration when Iwhen I'm kind of playing this out
for audiences, I just tell themto imagine a scenario like this. What
if you were standing at your kitchensink. You're washing dishes, which is
you know most of us have dishwashersnow, but not everybody. You're up
to your elbows like in the dishsuns. We can all remember at time
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when that was the case, lookingout the window and your four year old
son comes into the room behind yourback you cannot see him, and he
says, Mommy or Daddy, canI kill this? Which you know I
have a ten year old son,so this is not out of the question.
May or may not have actually happenedin the course of my life.
But your first question is going tobe like you're gonna freeze and you're gonna
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go what are you holding? Whatis it? You know? If my
son is holding a spider, well, I'm gonna help him kill it,
like swiftly and without remorse, likeI don't do spiders in my house.
If my son is holding our dog, like okay, different question, We're
gonna put the dog away, Like, no, we're not going to kill
the family dog. If my sonis holding his sister, like, we
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have our problem. Right the answermy husband served as a pastor for ten
years, so I don't even knowwhere we go for help at that point,
right, No, The point isthe answer to what is it?
Really does matter? So the wholeabortion debate is hinging on can we kill
the unborn? Well, well,sure, if the unborn are not human
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beings, Like if what we're talkingabout is so many want to claim is
no different than clipping a fingernail orpulling a tooth. If it really is
just a simple medical procedure, Ifthat's what it is, then we can
all retire, we can all justrelax. But if the unborn are human,
that's different. So we have toanswer that question what is the unborn
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before we can fairly talk about whetheror not we can quote kill the unborn.
Most people skip that question. Andso when I'm listening to other people
in conversation, here's where we'll bringit full circle to the conversational piece,
and I hear them give justifications forwhy abortion ought to be allowed, why
it ought to be legal. EvenI'll hear things like an appeal to privacy
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is an often one that was thelegal justification under row as it stood before.
An appeal to privacy this is aprivate matter between a woman and her
doctor. I'll hear an appeal topoverty, which is not an easy issue,
like this woman can't afford to feedanother child, why would you force
her to go through with a pregnancy. I will hear things like this enables
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women to pursue their dreams, theircareers, their educational goals without an unplanned
pregnancy standing in the way of that. Abortion prevents unwanted children from being born
who may not be loved the waythat they ought to be loved. Abortion
prevents disabled children from suffering once theyare born. We don't want them to
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suffer. Abortion. If we wereto make it illegal, I'm hearing this
one a lot lately. We wouldonly be banning safe abortions because women will
seek illegal abortions in which they maybe harmed or worse in back alleys or
whatnot. And of course, anyonewho is harmed because of an abortion is
a travesty anyone. Sure. Ihear things like if we make abortion illegal,
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well, isn't that just Christians forcingtheir religious views on other people?
Can we do that? So thelist keeps going and going and going.
These are all justifications. None ofthem deal with easy things or flippant things,
but they all skip that question.So what I'm going to do anytime
I here a justification for abortion isI'm going to ask myself, what if
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we were talking about a three yearold? What if the subject we're the
three year old? We know thatthree year olds are human. We're going
to think about a toddler. They'rehuman. They're crazy, but they're human.
And so when we do that,it makes things very clear all of
a sudden. We don't kill threeyear olds in the name of privacy.
We don't kill them when they areexpensive. We don't kill them when they
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stand in the way of something thatwe want, even our dreams. We
don't kill three year olds who areunwanted. We don't kill them when they're
disabled. We have no problem withlaws that make it harder to kill three
year olds, just in case thepersons seeking to do so might be harmed
in the act of trying. Andit's no more religious to say that my
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toddler nephew has value and cannot bekilled than to say that he doesn't have
value. So though these things areimportant, they skip that most important question,
what is the unborn, because they'realready assuming that the unborn are not
human. And what I'm going todo is probably in a conversation, use
a toddler as an example and tryto make the link back to the question.
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That doesn't make a case for thepro life view, but it does
frame the conversation in a way that'shelpful, so we can actually begin talking
about it. So you know,one of us is assuming the unborn is
not human like the toddler. Oneof us is assuming it is. Let's
talk about that. So okay,So yeah, there's other questions I want
to ask about the political and culturalaspects of it. But you kind of
got me intrigued here. So becausewhen you were talking, I was thinking,
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Okay, the dog and the spider, three year old, clump of
cells, and that's how a lotof these people see it. I know
you've gotten that argument a billion times. So when you're talking about creating that
line between the three year old andthe clump of cells, how do you
do how do you create that line? Well? Yeah, now, great
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question. The question what is theunborn the one that we should begin with,
is not a religious question. That'simportant to point out. So no
matter who we're talking about, andnot only that, but in the pro
life spectrum, Christians and or religiouspeople per se are not the only ones
who are pro life. Um.You know, I follow an organization called
Secular pro Life. They give excellentreasons for the pro life view. I
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follow atheists who are pro life,and I'm fascinated to hear what they have
to say. So the pro lifecase is grounded is science and in philosophy,
not ultimately. Ultimately, I thinkwe have to go deeper to worldview.
I would ground it in theology.Um. But I think when you're
making a case with people, youcan start with the things that we're right
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in front of us. What isthe unbornant? Yeah, I think the
coach voice thing when they when theybring up religion, I think it's a
red error. I think it's away to deflect from the actual conversation by
by folksing on the religious aspect ratherthan the actual conversation. Like I don't
I don't really take it seriously becauseyeah, there are religious police involveds,
especially for people like you and I, but this isn't about forcing one to
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religion on somebody else. It's likesaying, oh, well, if you
pass a law against murder, theBible says not to murder, So you're
putting your religion on me because nowI want to hurt. No, Yeah,
the same thing. But yeah,well, no, it's good.
I think you're right when people bringthat up as an objection, you've got
to understand where they're coming from.It might be a red herring, and
I think you're right most of thetime. It is kind of this deflection,
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Oh, well, you're dismissed becauseyou're a religious person. I would
not say that religious arguments are dismissedfrom the marketplace of ideas, because I
think that you know Christianity is trueand as do you in a real sense,
and that we can talk about itreasonably. But what is the unborn
is a scientific question, and sotypically that's where I would go to address
that question. And there is abranch of science called embryology that the study
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of embryos, that answers the questionconsistently the same way and has for quite
some time. And inasmuch as we'vediscovered what the science has to say about
it, just to break it down, breyology tells us that from the moment
of conception, you and I Jeffwere living distinct, whole human beings.
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That is what we were and whatwe are. We know that the embryo
is alive, even at the singlecelled stage, does things that every organism
does. This is stuff you learnin like seventh grade life science. Right,
It grows, it turns food intoenergy, and responds when you mess
with it. Even been shown embryosare great at repairing wounds, so we
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know they're alive. The embryo isdistinct, not part of the woman's body
like my arm would be a partof my body. The embryo is attached
to its mother, but has itsown unique genetic code that differs from its
mother's and from its fathers. Andin that way it is very distinct,
and the science there keeps going them. We could dig it that a little
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if you wanted to. But distinctfrom the mother, and the embryo is
whole. That is unlike my skincells. You know, I can scratch
my hand and send hundreds of myskin cells to the desk, and from
this is thus disgusting. But they'relying on the desk in front of me.
Some of them are still alive rightnow. They will die in just
a minute. They all contain myDNA encoding. But I am in no
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way guilty of, you know,murdering my cells. Those cells are parts
of me. They contribute to theoverall function of the organism that is me.
And embryo, even at that singlecelled stage, is its parts contribute
to its overall function as a distinctorganism, and it goes on to do
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something remarkable. So one more distinctionI'll make, and then we can you
know, I can send you toresources because it is fascinating. We tend
to think of embryos as things thatare constructed as some of their parts,
if you will, which is whywe have that language. Or it's just
a clump of cells, or it'sjust a massive tissue. And if you
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think about you know, I said, ideas have constant quences. Even the
language that we use in our postindustrial revolution culture. We don't talk about
procreation anymore. We talk about reproduction. So it's very factory terminology, you
know. But the embryo does somethingthat no constructed thing that's to some of
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its parts, that comes into beingover time, that no constructed thing could
ever do. And from the momentthat we came into existence, we have
driven our own development from within.We weren't constructed at all. We drove
our development from within. We cameinto being all at once, and things
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like that. Philosophers would call thata substance kind of thing versus just a
properties kind of thing that's just assome of its properties with as some of
its parts. Substance kinds of thingscome into being all at once. They
don't become more of their kind astime passes. Rather, they have something
that grounds their identity. Through timeand through change, they mature according to
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their kind. And that's exactly whatwe all did as embryos and what many
of us are still doing. Theteenagers that I speak to at Summit are
still doing exactly that as I'm talkingto them. So the science is quite
fascinating, but it does answer thequestion. These days, it seems like
everybody's talking, but no one isactually listening to the things they're saying.
(22:26):
Critical thinking isn't dead, but it'sdefinitely low on oxygen. Join me Kira
Davis on Jeff Listen to yourself everyweek as we reason through issues big and
small, critique our own ideas,and learn to draw our talking points all
the way out to their logical conclusions. Subscribe to Just Listen to Yourself with
Kira Davis an FCB Radio podcasts onApple, on Spotify, iHeart, or
(22:48):
wherever you get your podcasts. Awesome. So, yeah, you gave me
some homework. Now I have togo and study. Thanks. No,
you just said that's enough to know. Really, I mean that that gets
at it. But sure, youcan study in this fact. I'm curious.
It sounds very fascinating because those arethe arguments that you don't hear a
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lot about from the pole life side. Um we I mean, and not
everybody you know is going to diginto embryology. I get that, but
that aspect of it is important becauseit does diffuse that whole Oh this is
just a religious argument. Well no, this is also scientific and this is
how it works out. And Ithink a lot of us know this on
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some level because we did take biologywhen you know, when we were kids,
so we kind of know this stuff, but not the way that you
just laid it out. So thatthat's very interesting. So yeah, so
I want to talk about the societalconversation that we're going to be having.
So Rob Waite has been overturned.It's the decisions about abortions are back to
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the states. Now. How doyou see this debate shaping up going forward?
Um? Well, I think thefirst thing to note is anyone who
was paying attention knew that this momentwas always going to be difficult and even
ugly in some ways, and ithas proven to be that difficult and in
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some ways ugly. I think thatmoving forward, what's going to happen in
terms of people who are pro lifeand who are trying to have these conversations.
A couple of things have changed.Our job hasn't changed. We're still
making the case for the pro lifeview to our friends and our neighbors and
defending the unborn with well thought outarguments and ideas, not arguments in the
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bad sense of the word, butin the good sense of the word,
arguments that honor other people because wewant what's true, and so we're going
to be doing that. What's changedis that our voices now count for something
in the political arena. And Isaw a post the other day on social
media that was talking about the factthat people are so angry because they feel
like a right has been aken fromthem. Those who are mad about the
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overturn of roversus way that this rightto abortion has been stolen, when in
reality, what this court decided wasn'tthat we're going to take away a right.
It was rather, we're going tolook into the Constitution to see was
there a right there to begin with, And what the ruling actually indicated was
there's not anything there that would indicatethis right to abortion. That they talked
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about in nineteen seventy three is somethingthat has a firm foundation in our constitution.
There is no right to abortion thatis found there. And so you
know, this post was indicating thegood news is that nothing has been stolen.
It's just that we've been lied tofor fifty years almost in terms of
this. So I think moving forward, you know, we're going to have
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we have these battleground states. Wehave states where life will be more protected,
we have states where it won't.And what we're going to see is
exactly what we're seeing now, themovement to try and allow those who are
more abortion minded to have their abortions, whether that means they're crossing state lines
or battling for those rights within theirstates. And so right now these conversations
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matter, perhaps more than ever.My hope is that the law will be
a teacher, as it always hasbeen. Anytime we see law change at
the federal or national level, withinsome time, our popular consensus tends to
shift with it. You know,for years now, the unborn have been
discounted from the valuable human community.That has been the real debate in the
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whole abortion debate. It wasn't aboutwho loves women and who hates them.
That's an odd thing to me toeven think about, um, you know,
even even just to think about,yes, it is, and even
to take it a step deeper,you know, to say that we live
in a nation that in order tolove women well, they must have access
to abortion us So odd to me. That tells me that we live in
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a nation that thinks that an orderfor women to truly be successful, we
must treat part of our essential biologyas a handicap. That's not a nation
that loves women as women. That'sthat's different as a nation that loves something
like if I could be quite frank, sex without consequences, which is part
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of the conversation here. So Ithink moving forward, our job is to
keep on making excellent arguments, havingthe conversations. Our courage in talking about
abortion enables people to talk about itmore freely and instills courage and others,
And in many circumstances, it allowswomen who maybe have had past abortions to
talk about them, sometimes for thefirst time, with someone that they feel
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as a safe person to talk to. And of course all of it I
think should be done through the lensof the gospel. Which I believe is
very true. And in that sense, I don't believe that we walk around
condemning and inciting guilt. I thinkwhat we're doing is talking about the truth
of the matter that every one countsamong the valuable human community, even unborn
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human beings, in such a waythat we're extending grace of the truth to
others and the opportunity for healing forthose who have been hurt by abortion,
because that is one common denominator.No matter who I talk to, from
the you know, the staunchest abortionadvocate to the most passionate pro life advocate,
one thing that is common is thatabortion causes an immense amount of pain.
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So I think we have to beready for that too. There's a
lot of healing that needs to takeplace, I think, so when I
think it's been a long time commingand hopefully this can help to facilitate that.
And I do want to talk alittle bit more more about that aspect
too, But I also wanted tofind out what do you think now that
the Supreme Court decision has been handeddown? Are what is the pro abortion
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crowd wanted to do next? Nowthey don't have a Supreme Court decision to
hide behind. What are they goingto do to keep abortion in places as
much as they can. I thinkin some ways we already see them doing
it. They're going to fight forit, and in the same way that
pro lifers have fought for decades nowfor to advocate for the lives of the
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unborn, they're going to fight forthis so called right to abortion. And
I think that what we have tounderstand is that the people who are doing
that, I don't think that they'reout there with the mindset of we want
to kill babies. That would bea mischaracterization. I think that just like
when we saw the film Unplanned aboutAbby Johnson. One thing I liked about
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that film is the fact that whenthey portrayed her early on in her career
with planned parenthood, she did whatshe did because she truly believed she was
doing the right thing. And sothat I think that that people who are
fighting for abortion think that they aredoing what is right in a way that
will help women, and so thatthat's where the conversation has to come in,
is to try and convince them thisis not best way, This is
(30:00):
not the most human response to what'shappening in our nation, we can do
better than abortion. We're going tosee them do that politically. We've already
seen it in the states that havethat kind of set themselves up in preparation
for what happened with the Supreme Courtdecision. States like New York and you
(30:21):
know, Oregon and Washington and California, other Colorado, my state with very
liberal abortion laws, are going toallow abortion. In Colorado. There's a
late term clinic up in Boulder.So abortion hasn't gone anywhere in much of
our nation. I think that we'regoing to see them rally. The corporations
who would stand behind more liberal policyare going to push for these types of
(30:45):
things in ways that they do inother arenas. You know. I've already
seen you know, businesses and otherswho are making funds to help women seeking
abortions, businesses and larger corporations thathave offered to pay for travel so that
employees can obtain abortions. I thinkthis is what we're going to see a
lot of. And unfortunately, we'regoing to continue to see the character attacks
(31:10):
that have been coming out and rightnow the amount of false information out there
is pretty startling in terms of whatthese pro life states will or will not
allow, particularly with women whose livesare at risk or things like ectopic pregnancies
or dangerous miscarriages, all of whichare tragic situations. But there's not a
(31:32):
pro life law out there right nowthat would say that a woman who needs
a life saving procedure cannot have one. So a lot of stuff going on
out there in the midst of theturmoil, in the midst of the fear
of what might come, and inthe midst of the anger. So it
sounds like, and you confrect meif a long bout up, I mean,
(31:55):
it sounds like now before one therewas road, there was the debate
existed, but it wasn't as intenseas it's going to be because there's now
the federal government isn't mandating abortion.Now it can go either way de pay
on what state you're in. Sonow it's going to be more of a
debate in the public space, whichis kind of a good thing, I
(32:16):
think, because now we can reallyhave these conversations because before it was like,
well, it's already settled law,it's already there. You know,
it's not going anywhere. Well nowit has gone somewhere. So right now
both sides have to actually get itin and engage in the conversation. That's
that's absolutely true, And I thinkyou know, we can't overlook the work
(32:37):
of pro lifers in recent years whohave been working on the ground tirelessly to
try and make abortion unthinkable in theminds of people. That clearly has led
to something like this in this moment. Although abortion has never been a settled
issue in the United States, you'reright in saying that because it was at
the federal level through roversus Wade andits sister law, and then later through
(33:00):
Planned Parenthood versus Casey in nineteen ninetytwo, something that was kind of had
this cushion around it. It wasit was safe, so to speak.
But the moment that that came underthreat when we saw what happened, even
when the leaked draft came out andthings ramped up and escalated very quickly.
So yes, I agree with you, Yeah, definitely. So I really
(33:22):
want to The main reason I wantto have you on was to talk about
what poll lifers need to be doingnow that it is overturned, Now that
you know, more mothers will beconsidering having their children, whether it's by
necessity or because of the Nine Teineor what have you. You know,
what's always bothered me is that ifsomebody wants to terminate their pregnancy, you
(33:44):
already know where to go. Youdon't even have to look it up.
You know, you go to PlannedParenthood or you you know, you can
just go on Google and find somethingelse. It's easy. It's easy.
And on the other side that informationis readily available. There is no like
one organization like Planned Parenthood, butin reverse that I know of that that
(34:07):
does what pregnancy centers do. They'remore local organizations and when you look them
up you can find them. ButI would imagine that plan parent PARENTOD has
a lot more name recognition than crisispregnancy centers. So now that this has
happened, what do we need tobe doing to show to show mothers that
(34:29):
there are other options, that they'reall there are, there are alternatives to
plan parenthood. Because it almost seemedlike that was just a foregun conclusion,
Oh, I have an unwanted pregnancy, go to plan Parenthood. How do
we get them to think, Okay, I don't know, I don't have
a lot of money, not married, or maybe I am married, But
before where do I go to getsupportive. But if I'm if I'm struggling
with the idea of of of aboordingmy child, like, how do we
(34:52):
get that into the zeitgeist? Moregreat question? Um, let me begin
just by fleshing out the rest ofwhat I started if few minutes ago,
with the science, to talk alittle bit about the philosophical side of it
just for a second, and thento get to those practical things. I
think part of it, like Isaid a minute ago, is that this
debate has never been about who loveswomen, who hates women, who's for
(35:15):
freedom and who isn't you know thatkind of thing. It's been about who
counts among the valuable human community?Who are we going to allow in Most
people are informed on the science atthe popular well, i'd say that anyone
who's talking to who's informed on thedebate knows what the science says. There
are many who don't, which iswhy we still hear that terminology, which
(35:35):
is why it was important to addressit. But for those who say,
oh, we know they're human,but they don't have the rights that you
and I have, that's where thatidea, Well, some human beings must
matter more than others. That's wherethat comes in. And so this is
a debate about value. There areonly two avenues of thought in philosophy as
to why we are valuable. Oneis that we might be functionally valuable.
(36:00):
That would be a value that isattributed to us based on function, or
it might be traits, attributes,abilities, and there are a million and
one answers like that. The othertype of answer philosophy allows is that we
might be intrinsically valuable. So simple, most people just overlook that one.
It means you're valuable and light ofthe kind of thing you are, you
(36:22):
matter because you're human and because youshare this common human nature. So just
very quickly. Stephen Schwartz is aphilosopher who says that the intrinsic view is
the only one that has any hopefor human equality, because any time you
name a functional thing as the thingthat gives us value, those are the
(36:42):
things that come to us in varyingdegrees. He names four categories that we
can think of ways that we differfrom embryos or ourselves. As embryos,
they're smaller, so size, they'reless developed, level of development, they're
located in a different place. That'stheir environment. And they have a different
(37:04):
degree of dependency. So size,level of development, environment degree of dependency.
That is Stephen Schwartz's famous sled acronym. But we'll just take one example.
We'll look at size. Some wouldsay the embryo is so tiny it's
insignificant. Well, they're answering thequestion why are human beings valuable by saying
it's their size, that's what givesthem value. The problem with that answer
(37:30):
is that in doing that, they'vecreated this value spectrum, and on that
spectrum, smaller human beings matter lessthan larger human beings. We've created this
society where some human beings don't matteras much as others. And that's going
to happen with any functional difference thatyou name as the value giving thing.
Level of development could be consciousness,brain development, the ability to breathe,
(37:55):
the viability, the ability to surviveoutside of the way with medical assistance.
All of those things are functional differences, but those come to us in varying
degrees, and viability, as amatter of fact, is related directly to
the technology that's available, so itcould change just if you fly to a
different country. All that to say, the only answer that makes sense is
(38:16):
that we matter because we're human.So I bring that up because I think
that the more we talk that wayand walk that way, so to speak,
that we treat others with the intrinsicdignity inherent to them, even when
they disagree with us, that werecognize that there is no human being disqualified
from ultimate value because of something thatthey can or can't do, or that
(38:40):
they do or do or don't looklike, or you know, whatever it
happens to be. We can lookat history and see how this has been
disastrous on many occasions and still is. So it's important that we understand those
things. All of that, bythe way, attached to ultimately, I
think the imago day so Genesis pageone, you know. So if we
(39:01):
can learn to bring those conversations backand start recognizing, like, oh,
they're making that spectrum because they thinkthat the reason human beings should deserve rights
is a B or C. Andwe can point that out to people.
That's a helpful thing now in termsof what we do practically, I think
that pointing out the fact that pregnancycenters exist, because you're right, these
(39:22):
are not the stories that we hearabout. It is shocking to know what
they do in the communities where theyexist, and part of the reason we
don't hear about them is because theydon't have a lot of money backing them,
and they use every cent that theydo get to help women and families
who find themselves in these situations,and contrary to popular belief, not just
until a baby is born, butyears into that child's life, that mom
(39:46):
has resources for herself and her childand a community that comes around her with
the support that she needs, mostoften connected to a local church, which,
if they're doing it right, alsocomes around and says you're part of
our family now. Groups like EmbraceGrace who actually helped churches form communities for
(40:06):
single moms who find themselves unexpectedly pregnantand afraid adopt these moms into their churches
and they're doing fantastic work. ButI wanted to read something I found actually
on Live Action, which is LilaRose's wonderful colibory Yeah about pregnancy centers.
Things that we don't often know aboutthem, And you can kind of find
(40:28):
this if you, I think,if you look on their website. But
the fact that they serve nearly twomillion people annually with free services more than
two hundred and sixty six million dollarsof free services, pregnancy tests, ultrasounds,
formula bottles, diapers, like youname it. They offer parenting classes
(40:49):
to hundreds of thousands of people eachyear. They perform more than four hundred
and eighty six thousand three ultrasounds,provide three quarters of a million free pregnancy
tests, and just the amount ofother things outfits for mom and baby,
like in their little the shops thatthey make. There are more than two
thousand and seven hundred pregnancy resource centersin America, so that outnumbers abortion providers
(41:15):
in general three to one. Itoutnumbers it outnumbers Planned parenthoods five to one,
and that number is now growing becauseof the states where abortion providers are
having to shut down their businesses.So, contrary to popular belief, pregnancy
centers, which most of the onesin existence, are staffed by medical professionals,
(41:37):
many of whom volunteer their time.They are doing fantastic work in the
community. They are people giving oftheir time, money, resources, things
to say. We see you moms, we see you families, and we
want to help you. Please come. We have what you need, So
you're right, that's not a narrativethat we hear very often. So I'd
(41:59):
say, number one, what wecan do support your local pregnancy center,
whether it's through a monetary giving becausethey will use it well, or through
you know, donating things like diapers, bottles, formula outfits, strollers,
toys, books, like all ofthese different things that other young mom and
(42:20):
dad might find themselves in need of. You can donate through that, but
you can also donate in other ways. The young people that I talk to
you, they might be too youngto serve as a counselor in a in
a pregnancy center, though they havethe heart and want to. So I
tell them, well, what areyou good at? You know? A
lot of them are so tech savvy, and so I tell them, these
pregnancy resource centers nobody knows they're there. What if you ran a social media
(42:44):
page for them or built a websitefor them. You know that a lot
of them are older volunteers at thispoint, and they are doing hard work
day in and day out and lovingwomen well, but they don't know how
to do that, you know.So there are so many ways to step
in and help, just with thethings you're able to do already and it's
not hard to step up and dothat. Of course, I think that
(43:05):
we need to make our case andbe equipped to do so. So we
need to educate ourselves, and ourorganization has a plethora of free resources online.
We will send our speakers out towork with groups and teach people how
to have these good conversations, respectfulconversations in a way that is winsome,
in a way that it's open tolistening because we want what's true. We
(43:28):
stand on the pro life case becausewe think it's actually true, and we
have good reasons for that. Butthat's a humble position. It's not one
that thinks, oh, we're betterthan or anything like that. It's a
position that says, oh, I'mopen to hearing. I'm open to good
argumentation in the old fashioned sense thatrespects you as a person and is open
to hearing your ideas and let's talkabout them for real. So we do
(43:51):
that. But yeah, I thinkthat we're limited by time and resources.
That's that's our only limitations and maybecreativity. This is darvy O Kingpin moral.
I want you to add another showto your podcast rotation, my show,
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(44:15):
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(44:37):
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podcast that's out Laws The Outlaws RadioShow. Yeah, I think so.
(45:00):
I mean, because a lot ofwhat you said I didn't even know it.
I'm familiar with pregnancy centers. Iknow what they are. I kind
of have an idea what they provide, But a lot of what you said
that I mean, I didn't evenknow. So. I mean, to
the average lady person, they wouldn'tknow either. And it's important. I
mean, I think we do needto get more exposure for them because,
like I said, they don't havethe same name recognition as Plan Parenthood,
(45:21):
but Plan Parenthood has a whole politicalparty behind them, They've got an activist
media behind them. I mean,they've got everything going for them, and
we need to have that to tocounter that as well. Um, I
forgot what I was gonna ask.You go ahead and then I'll say,
(45:45):
Okay, okay, so I meanthe way I see it, and maybe
you'll agree or maybe you'll have somethingsomething to add. The question I was
going to ask was you know,we will We've been pushing for the end
of Rogue Way. Now that it'sgone, what should we be pushing them
for? Honestly, I think thisis it. I do because people on
(46:07):
the poach voice I always say,oh, you only care about birth,
you're po birth, but you don'tcare about the baby after it's born.
YadA, YadA, YadA, YadAYadA. That's not true because you just
we just discussed this. There areorganizations out there helping. But in some
cases, I think that criticism canbe valid because a lot of times we
don't think about this and now thatwill be weight is gone. I'm afraid
(46:27):
that the momentum might go down becausewe think it's it's dealt with. But
I think that our next push shouldbe to get these organizations more help,
to create more of them, andto really set them up as a as
a viable that that in a waythat they're perceived as a viable alternative determining
a pregnancy. Well, what doyou think or do you think maybe we
(46:49):
should be focused on something else orAnd I absolutely, I absolutely think that
that is true because they're already doingthe work and they have that and all
along we just didn't hear about themas much. But the people who have
benefited will tell you different stories.I think that there's more to it than
just that. When I'm talking tothe rising generation of young leaders, you
(47:15):
know, they have boundless energy andthey are so smart. I have just
such great hope for what's coming,contrary to what we hear sometimes like that,
that's not my experience in talking toyoung people. They want to change
the world and make a difference.They've got to realize that sometimes that's starting
right where they are. Because it'sour acts of everyday faithfulness, one on
(47:37):
one in the relationships we have aroundus Biblically, that makes a big difference.
Those conversations, those simple acts ofobedience or service do have eternal ramifications.
But when I'm talking to them,one thing I do want them to
think about is not just let's givethese organizations what they need. Christians have
been doing that, like I said, for a long time, and in
(47:57):
amounts of time, money, resourcesand things that outnumbers any other group demographically.
As far as giving to help thosewho are struggling in the private sector
at least, I think that onething I want to do is cast a
vision for them and for those listening. We live in a world that's fighting
over abortion, but in such away that kind of accepts our society the
(48:22):
way that it is right now.So we're looking at these parameters going,
well, this is the way societyis, so this is the way abortion
needs to work in it or notwork in it. And my thing is,
and I've read people who said thiseven better than I could, but
I agree with them. I thinkthat there's something about changing our culture instead
(48:45):
of expecting that we need to changeour bodies to fit the culture. This
is kind of tacked onto what Isaid earlier that it's strange that we live
in abortion in an abortion minded culturethat says to love women, well,
we need this thing. What ifwe lived in a culture that loved women
as women and children better than itdoes? So? What would it look
(49:07):
like if our university campuses and ourworkplaces began to change in such a way
that women as women and children weremore welcomed there, that being pregnant was
not something that you felt like,oh, how I'm how am I going
to explain this to my boss andwork this out? And all of that.
I think many times those conversations dogo well, but there's a lot
(49:29):
more we can do in terms ofthat going better. What would it look
like, For example, I've seena couple just recent examples off the top
of my head. One was aphotograph in a library of a woman working
at a desk, and next tothe desk there was a little like knee
high wooden almost play area, maybefour by four feet. It had toys
(49:52):
in it that were like attached tothe walls that you could play with them.
They were easy to clean, obviously, But this was a desk for
a working mother in a public library. She was working at the computer and
her toddler was playing happily beside her. What would it look like for I
saw a YouTube video recently of amom in an university classroom with a professor
(50:13):
lectury. Mom was trying to takenotes and her baby that was with her
kind of strapped to her of newborn, started crying because the baby was hungry.
So here she is like looking allaround, she's flustered because she's,
oh, this is a disruption.She's trying to get the bottle ready.
That professor, to his great credit, walked over, plucked up that baby,
plucked up that bottle, and startedfeeding the baby and never stopped teaching,
(50:38):
just started walking around and teaching thesame lecture. I cannot imagine what
that did to the heart of thatmom and to the hearts of the community
that was there watching, going hey, we see you, mom. You're
welcome here, and so is yourbaby, because they're part of the community.
Like children are noisy and hard becausethey have to learn to be adults,
but it takes the community to teachthem that. So I just start
(50:58):
thinking, man, what would itlook like if we start changing in a
way that that we're more open tosomething like that and we didn't look just
like we looked, you know,post industrial revolution. That would be interesting.
Um. So, I think themore we pushed toward making abortion unthinkable,
I hope that we pushed toward makingit unnecessary in the minds of people.
(51:19):
Um. I think that it iswrong that people have to be convinced
like you're gonna have what you needbecause you live in a nation that values
all human beings and in a nationthat values you and your child in such
a way that we're gonna We're gonnawalk that walk too. That's my great
hope. Um. And so Ithink we moved towards that step by step
(51:39):
that was deep, and we keepgoing through our host because I want to
ask, but I think that's agood place to believe it. Honestly,
Well, would you people are willingto come back on sometimes because I mean,
there's so much more that I wantto talk to you about. Okay,
yeah, sure, awesome. Well, Well before we sign out,
(52:00):
that was like the best note.Honestly, I think that's great casting that
vision. I just haven't what doyou say to stuff that I kind of
thought, But the way you saidit is better than I could have even
articulated, so oh thank you forgingWell. It's a hard it's a hard
sell. It's not an easy thing. So none of us can be naive
to enough to go oh yeah,just like no, we got to work
(52:21):
for that. But I think Ithink we can because I'm I'm a Chestertonian
irrational optimists, like there's hope,there is that, there really is.
I think that we have to rememberthat, especially in these times. But
before we sign up, by,don't you let everybody know where they can
find Oh? Sure, thank you. Um well, as we said,
(52:42):
Megan Allman, Live Training Institute's websiteis just ProLife training dot com, no
dashes or anything, just ProLife trainingdot com and you'll find resources there about
our speaking team and what we cando. Um. Other than that,
like I'm I'm around and here andthere wherever we're invited, we will go
gladly and give a respectful and winsomepresentation on the pro life view. So
(53:06):
we're happy to do that awesome rabelthing. Thanks for coming on and I'm
looking forward to next time. Thishas been a presentation of the FCB podcast
Network, where real talk lifts visitus online at FCB Podcasts dot com
Now this is the FCB Podcast Network. This is a fresh perspective with Jeff
(00:25):
Charles. Now, now I actuallyknow without further ado, I'm going to
bring on my guests. I havewith me Megan Almond with the Life Training
Institute and Summit Ministries. Welcome ofthe program system. Thank you, Jeff.
Good to be here. Yeah,I'm bad to have you one.
You have a lot of knowledge onthese things. So before we get into
(00:47):
everything, why don't you tell usa little bit about yourself. Yeah,
sure, thing. Um well,I live in Colorado, but I am
a Georgia native. So I wasborn and bred in Georgia. Moved out
here about four years ago in myhus been trip, began working full time
with Summit Ministries, and we areso happy to be where we are.
I come from a family of acrobats. My husband and I were both gymnasts.
(01:10):
We both attended the University of Georgia. And we have two children and
they two are you know, allthe flips, all the climbing, all
of the handstands, all around thehouse all the time. So our lives
are are busy with Life Training Institute. I love the benefit of getting to
be with my children and be athome, but often I'm on the road
(01:32):
and traveling and speaking to groups onthe topic of pro life apologetics, which
is not in any way, youknow, saying I'm sorry for the pro
life view or the larger Christian worldviewin which it rests, but I'm giving
reasons and I'm helping people understand howdo we have these conversations. Well,
so I talk to a lot ofpeople who agree with me and a lot
of people who disagree with me,and I believe it or not, those
(01:55):
conversations can go very well. Sothat's a little bit about me. And
yeah, so so co life apologetics. I'd never heard of that. Anytime
you hear the word apologetic, I'mthinking of religion, Christianity, thinking of
you know, people who who wetherand defend the faith. But I never
heard of pullife apologetics. But it'sbeen needed, It's been needed for for
(02:19):
a long time, and it's goingto continue to be needed. And we're
going to talk a little bit abit about that. But what can you
kind of just kind of walk usthrough how you even got involved in the
space in the first place, Like, how did you get to where you
are right now? I'm doing whatyou do great question. My undergraduate degree
was in journalism, so I actuallyworked as a journalist when I was first
married. I worked for a smallcommunity newspaper and did a mainly wrote feature
(02:44):
stories about people because I was trainedin magazine writing, and so that that
newspaper let me get away with alot as far as writing like a magazine
writer. But however, we weresmall enough where I would occasionally be sent
to cover of community events, andone evening show enough, my editor came
out of her office, handed mea camera and said, you need to
go cover this event. There's freefood, and so I went. And
(03:07):
the speaker that night was Scott Klusendorf. He was speaking at our local pregnancy
Resource centers annual fundraising banquets. Forthose who are familiar and those who aren't,
Pregnancy resource centers are largely run byvolunteers around our nation, and many
of them have one major fundraising eventeach year, and that's how they raised
(03:30):
the majority of their money to useand help women and families for that year.
And so I heard Scott speak,and he was speaking about the very
things he has now trained me tospeak about. But I wasn't familiar with
the topic either. I just knewthere was a man who's obviously a very
godly man standing up on stage talkingabout an issue that it's very difficult to
(03:53):
talk about with a group of people, and doing it in such a way
that I thought, I bet somebodycould ask him just about anything and he
might not know the answer, buthe's not going to be shaken by it.
There was just a groundedness about him, and I thought, whatever that
is, those are the stories Iwant to start telling. And so,
through a series of events, ittook about a year and a half,
(04:14):
I started reading all of the Christianapologetics material I could get my hands on,
and pro life Apologetics is a segmentof that, and I ended up
going back to school with my husband'sfull support. He said, I think
you could do something really special withthis interest that you have, and so
I earned a master's degree in apologeticsfrom Biola University and Christian Apologetics and came
(04:38):
full circle by joining Scott at LifeTraining Institute. Because for me, it
had always been about people. Humansfascinate me, Human dignity fascinates me,
why we matter, and the beautyof just being human within the limitations that
we have. I love talking aboutthose types of things and reading about them,
and so not only did I knowenough about a boar to know that
(05:00):
I needed to do something to helpbring an into it, and so this
is this is the route that Iwent. But also when we talk about
these issues, we talk about prolife apologetics, we're digging up underneath it
to get to the heart of whatit even means to be human, what
it means to be valuable as ahuman being. Those are the things that
bring me back every time. Andso Scott has trained me from the ground
(05:24):
up at Life Training Institute. Hewould tell you that I bugged him until
he hired me. That is notthe way I would tell the story,
but that works. I just wantedto learn from him, and I was
persistent and he finally gave in.I guess it is funny how how it
works that way. I mean,you go on this random assignment, you
got your free food, you gotyour camera, you can just doing your
(05:45):
thing, and then you see thisguy who aspires you, and then it
gets to where it's like it's likewhen you look back, you can see
what God was doing, and thenyou went to where you are right now
working under him. That's that's anincredible story. Oh yeah, yeah,
so, And it's also interesting whatyou've mentioned when you talk about the overall
debate, because when we think aboutabortion, we're thinking, Okay, we
(06:10):
don't want to kill babies, andthat alone is worthy of fighting for.
But you're right because it does bringup other issues like what does it mean
to be human? What does itmean to be a life? What does
that mean in relation to what theword says? And that can open up
a whole other world of conversation.I would imagine that it has for you
(06:32):
on many occasions, like it goesa lot deeper than saving lives. It
also gets to even the spiritual aspects. Yeah, what would that be fair
to say? Absolutely, it's fairto say. Um No. I don't
know if I saw this going intostudying pro life apologetics in particular, But
these conversations, because they touch onthose things, lead to gospel conversations more
(06:56):
than any of the other conversations thatI have with students are otherwise, because
those are our deepest questions. Welong to know who we are. We
long to know that we're seeing thatwe are, that we matter, that
our life has purpose, and sowe want you know, we want the
answers to those things, and theworld is answering those questions for us.
What does it mean to be human? Why are human beings valuable in all
(07:18):
different kinds of ways? And aswe teach our students here at Summit,
you know, ideas have consequences.The answers that come from from those questions
result in ideas. Those ideas resultin beliefs when they're adopted, and that
has consequences for the way that weview ourselves and the way that we view
others in the world around us.When I talk to students about the issue
(07:40):
of abortion, I typically begin byhelping them understand that, at the very
basic level, when a world thatallows abortion, that's a world that assumes
the idea that there are some humanbeings who simply matter more than other human
beings, interestingly enough, just tomake the connection, that is the same
(08:00):
undercurrent to every other major injustice thatwe see and that we rightly stand against.
So I want them to see thelink between those things. And then,
of course it's my job as theone giving the reasons, to do
the work of making a case forthe pro life view, and in turn,
I hope that helps them have sometools so that when they are in
conversations they can do the same.Yeah, I think you're right, I
(08:22):
mean, and that is the undercurrent. It is the idea that some lives
are more about matter more than others, and it's you. In order to
perpetuate and evil like that, youhave to view that person as less than
human. If you're going to enslavesomebody, you have to view them as
less than human, unless you're areally sick person, because if you view
them as a human equal to you, you can't do it. The same
(08:45):
thing with war. I mean alot of times in war times, the
armies are trained to see the enemyas sub human, as monsters, because
if you see them as actual humans, you're going to hesitate before you pull
that trigger. So I can so, I guess you use my question how
does that? How does that figureinto the conversations that you have as a
(09:05):
polite apologist? How I'm trying tofigure how to ask this, Well,
how does that does that influence theconversations that you're having with people who don't
agree with Yeah, Um, well, let me tell you about how we
would make the case, and thenmaybe we can tease that down to how
that might work out into a conversation, because the first thing we have to
(09:26):
learn to do in our conversations aboutabortion, because right now, you know,
abortion is the topic of the ofthe day. It has been for
quite some time, but that isramped up with the recent decisions by the
Supreme Court, and so I thinkthat people are talking about abortion, it
seems, but at the same timethey're kind of talking about everything but abortion.
(09:48):
The thing that makes abortion so complexis that there are many hard things
that bump into the abortion issue.It is very complex emotionally and psychologically,
that is obvious. It is complexpolitically, we've seen, it is complex
economically, all of these things thatbump into the issue. But morally speaking,
(10:09):
abortion is a very simple issue.The whole debate hinges on a single
question, and if we can learnto bring our conversations back to that question,
then we can have real conversations aboutit when we're not missing each other.
I think so often we try tomake this kind of in us and
them type of issue, But atthe heart of it, like we've already
pointed out, this is a thisis a human rights issue. This is
(10:31):
an issue about identity and our humanity. So our real battle is one against
of course sin. As Christians wewould say that, but also ideas.
And that's what Paul pointed out inSecond Corinthians, chapter ten. You know,
our weapons are not weapons of theflesh, but divinely powerful for the
destruction of strongholds. I think hewas talking about something like what we would
call world views now there, becausehe goes on to talk about our job.
(10:56):
Our weapons are powerful to tear downarguments and opinions raised against the knowledge
of God. We are to takethoughts captive to the obedience of Christ.
So that's where the battlefield is,and so often we miss that. The
center, the question of the centerof the whole debate has to be what
(11:16):
is the unborn? Like, whatis this thing that we're even talking about.
I give a simple illustration when Iwhen I'm kind of playing this out
for audiences, I just tell themto imagine a scenario like this. What
if you were standing at your kitchensink. You're washing dishes, which is
you know most of us have dishwashersnow, but not everybody. You're up
to your elbows like in the dishsuns. We can all remember at time
(11:39):
when that was the case, lookingout the window and your four year old
son comes into the room behind yourback you cannot see him, and he
says, Mommy or Daddy, canI kill this? Which you know I
have a ten year old son,so this is not out of the question.
May or may not have actually happenedin the course of my life.
But your first question is going tobe like you're gonna freeze and you're gonna
(12:03):
go what are you holding? Whatis it? You know? If my
son is holding a spider, well, I'm gonna help him kill it,
like swiftly and without remorse, likeI don't do spiders in my house.
If my son is holding our dog, like okay, different question, We're
gonna put the dog away, Like, no, we're not going to kill
the family dog. If my sonis holding his sister, like, we
(12:24):
have our problem. Right the answermy husband served as a pastor for ten
years, so I don't even knowwhere we go for help at that point,
right, No, The point isthe answer to what is it?
Really does matter? So the wholeabortion debate is hinging on can we kill
the unborn? Well, well,sure, if the unborn are not human
(12:48):
beings, Like if what we're talkingabout is so many want to claim is
no different than clipping a fingernail orpulling a tooth. If it really is
just a simple medical procedure, Ifthat's what it is, then we can
all retire, we can all justrelax. But if the unborn are human,
that's different. So we have toanswer that question what is the unborn
(13:09):
before we can fairly talk about whetheror not we can quote kill the unborn.
Most people skip that question. Andso when I'm listening to other people
in conversation, here's where we'll bringit full circle to the conversational piece,
and I hear them give justifications forwhy abortion ought to be allowed, why
it ought to be legal. EvenI'll hear things like an appeal to privacy
(13:33):
is an often one that was thelegal justification under row as it stood before.
An appeal to privacy this is aprivate matter between a woman and her
doctor. I'll hear an appeal topoverty, which is not an easy issue,
like this woman can't afford to feedanother child, why would you force
her to go through with a pregnancy. I will hear things like this enables
(13:54):
women to pursue their dreams, theircareers, their educational goals without an unplanned
pregnancy standing in the way of that. Abortion prevents unwanted children from being born
who may not be loved the waythat they ought to be loved. Abortion
prevents disabled children from suffering once theyare born. We don't want them to
(14:18):
suffer. Abortion. If we wereto make it illegal, I'm hearing this
one a lot lately. We wouldonly be banning safe abortions because women will
seek illegal abortions in which they maybe harmed or worse in back alleys or
whatnot. And of course, anyonewho is harmed because of an abortion is
a travesty anyone. Sure. Ihear things like if we make abortion illegal,
(14:41):
well, isn't that just Christians forcingtheir religious views on other people?
Can we do that? So thelist keeps going and going and going.
These are all justifications. None ofthem deal with easy things or flippant things,
but they all skip that question.So what I'm going to do anytime
I here a justification for abortion isI'm going to ask myself, what if
(15:03):
we were talking about a three yearold? What if the subject we're the
three year old? We know thatthree year olds are human. We're going
to think about a toddler. They'rehuman. They're crazy, but they're human.
And so when we do that,it makes things very clear all of
a sudden. We don't kill threeyear olds in the name of privacy.
We don't kill them when they areexpensive. We don't kill them when they
(15:26):
stand in the way of something thatwe want, even our dreams. We
don't kill three year olds who areunwanted. We don't kill them when they're
disabled. We have no problem withlaws that make it harder to kill three
year olds, just in case thepersons seeking to do so might be harmed
in the act of trying. Andit's no more religious to say that my
(15:48):
toddler nephew has value and cannot bekilled than to say that he doesn't have
value. So though these things areimportant, they skip that most important question,
what is the unborn, because they'realready assuming that the unborn are not
human. And what I'm going todo is probably in a conversation, use
a toddler as an example and tryto make the link back to the question.
(16:10):
That doesn't make a case for thepro life view, but it does
frame the conversation in a way that'shelpful, so we can actually begin talking
about it. So you know,one of us is assuming the unborn is
not human like the toddler. Oneof us is assuming it is. Let's
talk about that. So okay,So yeah, there's other questions I want
to ask about the political and culturalaspects of it. But you kind of
got me intrigued here. So becausewhen you were talking, I was thinking,
(16:33):
Okay, the dog and the spider, three year old, clump of
cells, and that's how a lotof these people see it. I know
you've gotten that argument a billion times. So when you're talking about creating that
line between the three year old andthe clump of cells, how do you
do how do you create that line? Well? Yeah, now, great
(16:55):
question. The question what is theunborn the one that we should begin with,
is not a religious question. That'simportant to point out. So no
matter who we're talking about, andnot only that, but in the pro
life spectrum, Christians and or religiouspeople per se are not the only ones
who are pro life. Um.You know, I follow an organization called
Secular pro Life. They give excellentreasons for the pro life view. I
(17:18):
follow atheists who are pro life,and I'm fascinated to hear what they have
to say. So the pro lifecase is grounded is science and in philosophy,
not ultimately. Ultimately, I thinkwe have to go deeper to worldview.
I would ground it in theology.Um. But I think when you're
making a case with people, youcan start with the things that we're right
(17:40):
in front of us. What isthe unbornant? Yeah, I think the
coach voice thing when they when theybring up religion, I think it's a
red error. I think it's away to deflect from the actual conversation by
by folksing on the religious aspect ratherthan the actual conversation. Like I don't
I don't really take it seriously becauseyeah, there are religious police involveds,
especially for people like you and I, but this isn't about forcing one to
(18:02):
religion on somebody else. It's likesaying, oh, well, if you
pass a law against murder, theBible says not to murder, So you're
putting your religion on me because nowI want to hurt. No, Yeah,
the same thing. But yeah,well, no, it's good.
I think you're right when people bringthat up as an objection, you've got
to understand where they're coming from.It might be a red herring, and
I think you're right most of thetime. It is kind of this deflection,
(18:22):
Oh, well, you're dismissed becauseyou're a religious person. I would
not say that religious arguments are dismissedfrom the marketplace of ideas, because I
think that you know Christianity is trueand as do you in a real sense,
and that we can talk about itreasonably. But what is the unborn
is a scientific question, and sotypically that's where I would go to address
that question. And there is abranch of science called embryology that the study
(18:47):
of embryos, that answers the questionconsistently the same way and has for quite
some time. And inasmuch as we'vediscovered what the science has to say about
it, just to break it down, breyology tells us that from the moment
of conception, you and I Jeffwere living distinct, whole human beings.
(19:11):
That is what we were and whatwe are. We know that the embryo
is alive, even at the singlecelled stage, does things that every organism
does. This is stuff you learnin like seventh grade life science. Right,
It grows, it turns food intoenergy, and responds when you mess
with it. Even been shown embryosare great at repairing wounds, so we
(19:32):
know they're alive. The embryo isdistinct, not part of the woman's body
like my arm would be a partof my body. The embryo is attached
to its mother, but has itsown unique genetic code that differs from its
mother's and from its fathers. Andin that way it is very distinct,
and the science there keeps going them. We could dig it that a little
(19:52):
if you wanted to. But distinctfrom the mother, and the embryo is
whole. That is unlike my skincells. You know, I can scratch
my hand and send hundreds of myskin cells to the desk, and from
this is thus disgusting. But they'relying on the desk in front of me.
Some of them are still alive rightnow. They will die in just
a minute. They all contain myDNA encoding. But I am in no
(20:15):
way guilty of, you know,murdering my cells. Those cells are parts
of me. They contribute to theoverall function of the organism that is me.
And embryo, even at that singlecelled stage, is its parts contribute
to its overall function as a distinctorganism, and it goes on to do
(20:36):
something remarkable. So one more distinctionI'll make, and then we can you
know, I can send you toresources because it is fascinating. We tend
to think of embryos as things thatare constructed as some of their parts,
if you will, which is whywe have that language. Or it's just
a clump of cells, or it'sjust a massive tissue. And if you
(20:56):
think about you know, I said, ideas have constant quences. Even the
language that we use in our postindustrial revolution culture. We don't talk about
procreation anymore. We talk about reproduction. So it's very factory terminology, you
know. But the embryo does somethingthat no constructed thing that's to some of
(21:19):
its parts, that comes into beingover time, that no constructed thing could
ever do. And from the momentthat we came into existence, we have
driven our own development from within.We weren't constructed at all. We drove
our development from within. We cameinto being all at once, and things
(21:40):
like that. Philosophers would call thata substance kind of thing versus just a
properties kind of thing that's just assome of its properties with as some of
its parts. Substance kinds of thingscome into being all at once. They
don't become more of their kind astime passes. Rather, they have something
that grounds their identity. Through timeand through change, they mature according to
(22:03):
their kind. And that's exactly whatwe all did as embryos and what many
of us are still doing. Theteenagers that I speak to at Summit are
still doing exactly that as I'm talkingto them. So the science is quite
fascinating, but it does answer thequestion. These days, it seems like
everybody's talking, but no one isactually listening to the things they're saying.
(22:26):
Critical thinking isn't dead, but it'sdefinitely low on oxygen. Join me Kira
Davis on Jeff Listen to yourself everyweek as we reason through issues big and
small, critique our own ideas,and learn to draw our talking points all
the way out to their logical conclusions. Subscribe to Just Listen to Yourself with
Kira Davis an FCB Radio podcasts onApple, on Spotify, iHeart, or
(22:48):
wherever you get your podcasts. Awesome. So, yeah, you gave me
some homework. Now I have togo and study. Thanks. No,
you just said that's enough to know. Really, I mean that that gets
at it. But sure, youcan study in this fact. I'm curious.
It sounds very fascinating because those arethe arguments that you don't hear a
(23:10):
lot about from the pole life side. Um we I mean, and not
everybody you know is going to diginto embryology. I get that, but
that aspect of it is important becauseit does diffuse that whole Oh this is
just a religious argument. Well no, this is also scientific and this is
how it works out. And Ithink a lot of us know this on
(23:30):
some level because we did take biologywhen you know, when we were kids,
so we kind of know this stuff, but not the way that you
just laid it out. So thatthat's very interesting. So yeah, so
I want to talk about the societalconversation that we're going to be having.
So Rob Waite has been overturned.It's the decisions about abortions are back to
(23:52):
the states. Now. How doyou see this debate shaping up going forward?
Um? Well, I think thefirst thing to note is anyone who
was paying attention knew that this momentwas always going to be difficult and even
ugly in some ways, and ithas proven to be that difficult and in
(24:14):
some ways ugly. I think thatmoving forward, what's going to happen in
terms of people who are pro lifeand who are trying to have these conversations.
A couple of things have changed.Our job hasn't changed. We're still
making the case for the pro lifeview to our friends and our neighbors and
defending the unborn with well thought outarguments and ideas, not arguments in the
(24:37):
bad sense of the word, butin the good sense of the word,
arguments that honor other people because wewant what's true, and so we're going
to be doing that. What's changedis that our voices now count for something
in the political arena. And Isaw a post the other day on social
media that was talking about the factthat people are so angry because they feel
like a right has been aken fromthem. Those who are mad about the
(25:03):
overturn of roversus way that this rightto abortion has been stolen, when in
reality, what this court decided wasn'tthat we're going to take away a right.
It was rather, we're going tolook into the Constitution to see was
there a right there to begin with, And what the ruling actually indicated was
there's not anything there that would indicatethis right to abortion. That they talked
(25:27):
about in nineteen seventy three is somethingthat has a firm foundation in our constitution.
There is no right to abortion thatis found there. And so you
know, this post was indicating thegood news is that nothing has been stolen.
It's just that we've been lied tofor fifty years almost in terms of
this. So I think moving forward, you know, we're going to have
(25:49):
we have these battleground states. Wehave states where life will be more protected,
we have states where it won't.And what we're going to see is
exactly what we're seeing now, themovement to try and allow those who are
more abortion minded to have their abortions, whether that means they're crossing state lines
or battling for those rights within theirstates. And so right now these conversations
(26:11):
matter, perhaps more than ever.My hope is that the law will be
a teacher, as it always hasbeen. Anytime we see law change at
the federal or national level, withinsome time, our popular consensus tends to
shift with it. You know,for years now, the unborn have been
discounted from the valuable human community.That has been the real debate in the
(26:36):
whole abortion debate. It wasn't aboutwho loves women and who hates them.
That's an odd thing to me toeven think about, um, you know,
even even just to think about,yes, it is, and even
to take it a step deeper,you know, to say that we live
in a nation that in order tolove women well, they must have access
to abortion us So odd to me. That tells me that we live in
(26:57):
a nation that thinks that an orderfor women to truly be successful, we
must treat part of our essential biologyas a handicap. That's not a nation
that loves women as women. That'sthat's different as a nation that loves something
like if I could be quite frank, sex without consequences, which is part
(27:18):
of the conversation here. So Ithink moving forward, our job is to
keep on making excellent arguments, havingthe conversations. Our courage in talking about
abortion enables people to talk about itmore freely and instills courage and others,
And in many circumstances, it allowswomen who maybe have had past abortions to
talk about them, sometimes for thefirst time, with someone that they feel
(27:42):
as a safe person to talk to. And of course all of it I
think should be done through the lensof the gospel. Which I believe is
very true. And in that sense, I don't believe that we walk around
condemning and inciting guilt. I thinkwhat we're doing is talking about the truth
of the matter that every one countsamong the valuable human community, even unborn
(28:03):
human beings, in such a waythat we're extending grace of the truth to
others and the opportunity for healing forthose who have been hurt by abortion,
because that is one common denominator.No matter who I talk to, from
the you know, the staunchest abortionadvocate to the most passionate pro life advocate,
one thing that is common is thatabortion causes an immense amount of pain.
(28:27):
So I think we have to beready for that too. There's a
lot of healing that needs to takeplace, I think, so when I
think it's been a long time commingand hopefully this can help to facilitate that.
And I do want to talk alittle bit more more about that aspect
too, But I also wanted tofind out what do you think now that
the Supreme Court decision has been handeddown? Are what is the pro abortion
(28:52):
crowd wanted to do next? Nowthey don't have a Supreme Court decision to
hide behind. What are they goingto do to keep abortion in places as
much as they can. I thinkin some ways we already see them doing
it. They're going to fight forit, and in the same way that
pro lifers have fought for decades nowfor to advocate for the lives of the
(29:15):
unborn, they're going to fight forthis so called right to abortion. And
I think that what we have tounderstand is that the people who are doing
that, I don't think that they'reout there with the mindset of we want
to kill babies. That would bea mischaracterization. I think that just like
when we saw the film Unplanned aboutAbby Johnson. One thing I liked about
(29:37):
that film is the fact that whenthey portrayed her early on in her career
with planned parenthood, she did whatshe did because she truly believed she was
doing the right thing. And sothat I think that that people who are
fighting for abortion think that they aredoing what is right in a way that
will help women, and so thatthat's where the conversation has to come in,
is to try and convince them thisis not best way, This is
(30:00):
not the most human response to what'shappening in our nation, we can do
better than abortion. We're going tosee them do that politically. We've already
seen it in the states that havethat kind of set themselves up in preparation
for what happened with the Supreme Courtdecision. States like New York and you
(30:21):
know, Oregon and Washington and California, other Colorado, my state with very
liberal abortion laws, are going toallow abortion. In Colorado. There's a
late term clinic up in Boulder.So abortion hasn't gone anywhere in much of
our nation. I think that we'regoing to see them rally. The corporations
who would stand behind more liberal policyare going to push for these types of
(30:45):
things in ways that they do inother arenas. You know. I've already
seen you know, businesses and otherswho are making funds to help women seeking
abortions, businesses and larger corporations thathave offered to pay for travel so that
employees can obtain abortions. I thinkthis is what we're going to see a
lot of. And unfortunately, we'regoing to continue to see the character attacks
(31:10):
that have been coming out and rightnow the amount of false information out there
is pretty startling in terms of whatthese pro life states will or will not
allow, particularly with women whose livesare at risk or things like ectopic pregnancies
or dangerous miscarriages, all of whichare tragic situations. But there's not a
(31:32):
pro life law out there right nowthat would say that a woman who needs
a life saving procedure cannot have one. So a lot of stuff going on
out there in the midst of theturmoil, in the midst of the fear
of what might come, and inthe midst of the anger. So it
sounds like, and you confrect meif a long bout up, I mean,
(31:55):
it sounds like now before one therewas road, there was the debate
existed, but it wasn't as intenseas it's going to be because there's now
the federal government isn't mandating abortion.Now it can go either way de pay
on what state you're in. Sonow it's going to be more of a
debate in the public space, whichis kind of a good thing, I
(32:16):
think, because now we can reallyhave these conversations because before it was like,
well, it's already settled law,it's already there. You know,
it's not going anywhere. Well nowit has gone somewhere. So right now
both sides have to actually get itin and engage in the conversation. That's
that's absolutely true, And I thinkyou know, we can't overlook the work
(32:37):
of pro lifers in recent years whohave been working on the ground tirelessly to
try and make abortion unthinkable in theminds of people. That clearly has led
to something like this in this moment. Although abortion has never been a settled
issue in the United States, you'reright in saying that because it was at
the federal level through roversus Wade andits sister law, and then later through
(33:00):
Planned Parenthood versus Casey in nineteen ninetytwo, something that was kind of had
this cushion around it. It wasit was safe, so to speak.
But the moment that that came underthreat when we saw what happened, even
when the leaked draft came out andthings ramped up and escalated very quickly.
So yes, I agree with you, Yeah, definitely. So I really
(33:22):
want to The main reason I wantto have you on was to talk about
what poll lifers need to be doingnow that it is overturned, Now that
you know, more mothers will beconsidering having their children, whether it's by
necessity or because of the Nine Teineor what have you. You know,
what's always bothered me is that ifsomebody wants to terminate their pregnancy, you
(33:44):
already know where to go. Youdon't even have to look it up.
You know, you go to PlannedParenthood or you you know, you can
just go on Google and find somethingelse. It's easy. It's easy.
And on the other side that informationis readily available. There is no like
one organization like Planned Parenthood, butin reverse that I know of that that
(34:07):
does what pregnancy centers do. They'remore local organizations and when you look them
up you can find them. ButI would imagine that plan parent PARENTOD has
a lot more name recognition than crisispregnancy centers. So now that this has
happened, what do we need tobe doing to show to show mothers that
(34:29):
there are other options, that they'reall there are, there are alternatives to
plan parenthood. Because it almost seemedlike that was just a foregun conclusion,
Oh, I have an unwanted pregnancy, go to plan Parenthood. How do
we get them to think, Okay, I don't know, I don't have
a lot of money, not married, or maybe I am married, But
before where do I go to getsupportive. But if I'm if I'm struggling
with the idea of of of aboordingmy child, like, how do we
(34:52):
get that into the zeitgeist? Moregreat question? Um, let me begin
just by fleshing out the rest ofwhat I started if few minutes ago,
with the science, to talk alittle bit about the philosophical side of it
just for a second, and thento get to those practical things. I
think part of it, like Isaid a minute ago, is that this
debate has never been about who loveswomen, who hates women, who's for
(35:15):
freedom and who isn't you know thatkind of thing. It's been about who
counts among the valuable human community?Who are we going to allow in Most
people are informed on the science atthe popular well, i'd say that anyone
who's talking to who's informed on thedebate knows what the science says. There
are many who don't, which iswhy we still hear that terminology, which
(35:35):
is why it was important to addressit. But for those who say,
oh, we know they're human,but they don't have the rights that you
and I have, that's where thatidea, Well, some human beings must
matter more than others. That's wherethat comes in. And so this is
a debate about value. There areonly two avenues of thought in philosophy as
to why we are valuable. Oneis that we might be functionally valuable.
(36:00):
That would be a value that isattributed to us based on function, or
it might be traits, attributes,abilities, and there are a million and
one answers like that. The othertype of answer philosophy allows is that we
might be intrinsically valuable. So simple, most people just overlook that one.
It means you're valuable and light ofthe kind of thing you are, you
(36:22):
matter because you're human and because youshare this common human nature. So just
very quickly. Stephen Schwartz is aphilosopher who says that the intrinsic view is
the only one that has any hopefor human equality, because any time you
name a functional thing as the thingthat gives us value, those are the
(36:42):
things that come to us in varyingdegrees. He names four categories that we
can think of ways that we differfrom embryos or ourselves. As embryos,
they're smaller, so size, they'reless developed, level of development, they're
located in a different place. That'stheir environment. And they have a different
(37:04):
degree of dependency. So size,level of development, environment degree of dependency.
That is Stephen Schwartz's famous sled acronym. But we'll just take one example.
We'll look at size. Some wouldsay the embryo is so tiny it's
insignificant. Well, they're answering thequestion why are human beings valuable by saying
it's their size, that's what givesthem value. The problem with that answer
(37:30):
is that in doing that, they'vecreated this value spectrum, and on that
spectrum, smaller human beings matter lessthan larger human beings. We've created this
society where some human beings don't matteras much as others. And that's going
to happen with any functional difference thatyou name as the value giving thing.
Level of development could be consciousness,brain development, the ability to breathe,
(37:55):
the viability, the ability to surviveoutside of the way with medical assistance.
All of those things are functional differences, but those come to us in varying
degrees, and viability, as amatter of fact, is related directly to
the technology that's available, so itcould change just if you fly to a
different country. All that to say, the only answer that makes sense is
(38:16):
that we matter because we're human.So I bring that up because I think
that the more we talk that wayand walk that way, so to speak,
that we treat others with the intrinsicdignity inherent to them, even when
they disagree with us, that werecognize that there is no human being disqualified
from ultimate value because of something thatthey can or can't do, or that
(38:40):
they do or do or don't looklike, or you know, whatever it
happens to be. We can lookat history and see how this has been
disastrous on many occasions and still is. So it's important that we understand those
things. All of that, bythe way, attached to ultimately, I
think the imago day so Genesis pageone, you know. So if we
(39:01):
can learn to bring those conversations backand start recognizing, like, oh,
they're making that spectrum because they thinkthat the reason human beings should deserve rights
is a B or C. Andwe can point that out to people.
That's a helpful thing now in termsof what we do practically, I think
that pointing out the fact that pregnancycenters exist, because you're right, these
(39:22):
are not the stories that we hearabout. It is shocking to know what
they do in the communities where theyexist, and part of the reason we
don't hear about them is because theydon't have a lot of money backing them,
and they use every cent that theydo get to help women and families
who find themselves in these situations,and contrary to popular belief, not just
until a baby is born, butyears into that child's life, that mom
(39:46):
has resources for herself and her childand a community that comes around her with
the support that she needs, mostoften connected to a local church, which,
if they're doing it right, alsocomes around and says you're part of
our family now. Groups like EmbraceGrace who actually helped churches form communities for
(40:06):
single moms who find themselves unexpectedly pregnantand afraid adopt these moms into their churches
and they're doing fantastic work. ButI wanted to read something I found actually
on Live Action, which is LilaRose's wonderful colibory Yeah about pregnancy centers.
Things that we don't often know aboutthem, And you can kind of find
(40:28):
this if you, I think,if you look on their website. But
the fact that they serve nearly twomillion people annually with free services more than
two hundred and sixty six million dollarsof free services, pregnancy tests, ultrasounds,
formula bottles, diapers, like youname it. They offer parenting classes
(40:49):
to hundreds of thousands of people eachyear. They perform more than four hundred
and eighty six thousand three ultrasounds,provide three quarters of a million free pregnancy
tests, and just the amount ofother things outfits for mom and baby,
like in their little the shops thatthey make. There are more than two
thousand and seven hundred pregnancy resource centersin America, so that outnumbers abortion providers
(41:15):
in general three to one. Itoutnumbers it outnumbers Planned parenthoods five to one,
and that number is now growing becauseof the states where abortion providers are
having to shut down their businesses.So, contrary to popular belief, pregnancy
centers, which most of the onesin existence, are staffed by medical professionals,
(41:37):
many of whom volunteer their time.They are doing fantastic work in the
community. They are people giving oftheir time, money, resources, things
to say. We see you moms, we see you families, and we
want to help you. Please come. We have what you need, So
you're right, that's not a narrativethat we hear very often. So I'd
(41:59):
say, number one, what wecan do support your local pregnancy center,
whether it's through a monetary giving becausethey will use it well, or through
you know, donating things like diapers, bottles, formula outfits, strollers,
toys, books, like all ofthese different things that other young mom and
(42:20):
dad might find themselves in need of. You can donate through that, but
you can also donate in other ways. The young people that I talk to
you, they might be too youngto serve as a counselor in a in
a pregnancy center, though they havethe heart and want to. So I
tell them, well, what areyou good at? You know? A
lot of them are so tech savvy, and so I tell them, these
pregnancy resource centers nobody knows they're there. What if you ran a social media
(42:44):
page for them or built a websitefor them. You know that a lot
of them are older volunteers at thispoint, and they are doing hard work
day in and day out and lovingwomen well, but they don't know how
to do that, you know.So there are so many ways to step
in and help, just with thethings you're able to do already and it's
not hard to step up and dothat. Of course, I think that
(43:05):
we need to make our case andbe equipped to do so. So we
need to educate ourselves, and ourorganization has a plethora of free resources online.
We will send our speakers out towork with groups and teach people how
to have these good conversations, respectfulconversations in a way that is winsome,
in a way that it's open tolistening because we want what's true. We
(43:28):
stand on the pro life case becausewe think it's actually true, and we
have good reasons for that. Butthat's a humble position. It's not one
that thinks, oh, we're betterthan or anything like that. It's a
position that says, oh, I'mopen to hearing. I'm open to good
argumentation in the old fashioned sense thatrespects you as a person and is open
to hearing your ideas and let's talkabout them for real. So we do
(43:51):
that. But yeah, I thinkthat we're limited by time and resources.
That's that's our only limitations and maybecreativity. This is darvy O Kingpin moral.
I want you to add another showto your podcast rotation, my show,
The Outlaws radio show. We arean entertaining and informative show that talks
(44:15):
about everything from pop culture to politics. Nothing's off limits. My co host,
Robin O'Malley brings you the latest newsin gossip in the entertainment world.
On our segment Tea Time with Row. My other co host Dante Bry rants
on political issues and our segment Dante'sHot Takes, and also we bring you
some of the best interviews with peoplein the worlds of politics, entertainment,
(44:37):
culture, and more. We're alighthearted show that doesn't judge you for the
way you vote, and we don'tspend our time shoving media narratives down people's
throats. If that sounds like theshow for you, subscribe to The Outlaws
Radio Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, iHeartRadio, or wherever you get your
podcast that's out Laws The Outlaws RadioShow. Yeah, I think so.
(45:00):
I mean, because a lot ofwhat you said I didn't even know it.
I'm familiar with pregnancy centers. Iknow what they are. I kind
of have an idea what they provide, But a lot of what you said
that I mean, I didn't evenknow. So. I mean, to
the average lady person, they wouldn'tknow either. And it's important. I
mean, I think we do needto get more exposure for them because,
like I said, they don't havethe same name recognition as Plan Parenthood,
(45:21):
but Plan Parenthood has a whole politicalparty behind them, They've got an activist
media behind them. I mean,they've got everything going for them, and
we need to have that to tocounter that as well. Um, I
forgot what I was gonna ask.You go ahead and then I'll say,
(45:45):
Okay, okay, so I meanthe way I see it, and maybe
you'll agree or maybe you'll have somethingsomething to add. The question I was
going to ask was you know,we will We've been pushing for the end
of Rogue Way. Now that it'sgone, what should we be pushing them
for? Honestly, I think thisis it. I do because people on
(46:07):
the poach voice I always say,oh, you only care about birth,
you're po birth, but you don'tcare about the baby after it's born.
YadA, YadA, YadA, YadAYadA. That's not true because you just
we just discussed this. There areorganizations out there helping. But in some
cases, I think that criticism canbe valid because a lot of times we
don't think about this and now thatwill be weight is gone. I'm afraid
(46:27):
that the momentum might go down becausewe think it's it's dealt with. But
I think that our next push shouldbe to get these organizations more help,
to create more of them, andto really set them up as a as
a viable that that in a waythat they're perceived as a viable alternative determining
a pregnancy. Well, what doyou think or do you think maybe we
(46:49):
should be focused on something else orAnd I absolutely, I absolutely think that
that is true because they're already doingthe work and they have that and all
along we just didn't hear about themas much. But the people who have
benefited will tell you different stories.I think that there's more to it than
just that. When I'm talking tothe rising generation of young leaders, you
(47:15):
know, they have boundless energy andthey are so smart. I have just
such great hope for what's coming,contrary to what we hear sometimes like that,
that's not my experience in talking toyoung people. They want to change
the world and make a difference.They've got to realize that sometimes that's starting
right where they are. Because it'sour acts of everyday faithfulness, one on
(47:37):
one in the relationships we have aroundus Biblically, that makes a big difference.
Those conversations, those simple acts ofobedience or service do have eternal ramifications.
But when I'm talking to them,one thing I do want them to
think about is not just let's givethese organizations what they need. Christians have
been doing that, like I said, for a long time, and in
(47:57):
amounts of time, money, resourcesand things that outnumbers any other group demographically.
As far as giving to help thosewho are struggling in the private sector
at least, I think that onething I want to do is cast a
vision for them and for those listening. We live in a world that's fighting
over abortion, but in such away that kind of accepts our society the
(48:22):
way that it is right now.So we're looking at these parameters going,
well, this is the way societyis, so this is the way abortion
needs to work in it or notwork in it. And my thing is,
and I've read people who said thiseven better than I could, but
I agree with them. I thinkthat there's something about changing our culture instead
(48:45):
of expecting that we need to changeour bodies to fit the culture. This
is kind of tacked onto what Isaid earlier that it's strange that we live
in abortion in an abortion minded culturethat says to love women, well,
we need this thing. What ifwe lived in a culture that loved women
as women and children better than itdoes? So? What would it look
(49:07):
like if our university campuses and ourworkplaces began to change in such a way
that women as women and children weremore welcomed there, that being pregnant was
not something that you felt like,oh, how I'm how am I going
to explain this to my boss andwork this out? And all of that.
I think many times those conversations dogo well, but there's a lot
(49:29):
more we can do in terms ofthat going better. What would it look
like, For example, I've seena couple just recent examples off the top
of my head. One was aphotograph in a library of a woman working
at a desk, and next tothe desk there was a little like knee
high wooden almost play area, maybefour by four feet. It had toys
(49:52):
in it that were like attached tothe walls that you could play with them.
They were easy to clean, obviously, But this was a desk for
a working mother in a public library. She was working at the computer and
her toddler was playing happily beside her. What would it look like for I
saw a YouTube video recently of amom in an university classroom with a professor
(50:13):
lectury. Mom was trying to takenotes and her baby that was with her
kind of strapped to her of newborn, started crying because the baby was hungry.
So here she is like looking allaround, she's flustered because she's,
oh, this is a disruption.She's trying to get the bottle ready.
That professor, to his great credit, walked over, plucked up that baby,
plucked up that bottle, and startedfeeding the baby and never stopped teaching,
(50:38):
just started walking around and teaching thesame lecture. I cannot imagine what
that did to the heart of thatmom and to the hearts of the community
that was there watching, going hey, we see you, mom. You're
welcome here, and so is yourbaby, because they're part of the community.
Like children are noisy and hard becausethey have to learn to be adults,
but it takes the community to teachthem that. So I just start
(50:58):
thinking, man, what would itlook like if we start changing in a
way that that we're more open tosomething like that and we didn't look just
like we looked, you know,post industrial revolution. That would be interesting.
Um. So, I think themore we pushed toward making abortion unthinkable,
I hope that we pushed toward makingit unnecessary in the minds of people.
(51:19):
Um. I think that it iswrong that people have to be convinced
like you're gonna have what you needbecause you live in a nation that values
all human beings and in a nationthat values you and your child in such
a way that we're gonna We're gonnawalk that walk too. That's my great
hope. Um. And so Ithink we moved towards that step by step
(51:39):
that was deep, and we keepgoing through our host because I want to
ask, but I think that's agood place to believe it. Honestly,
Well, would you people are willingto come back on sometimes because I mean,
there's so much more that I wantto talk to you about. Okay,
yeah, sure, awesome. Well, Well before we sign out,
(52:00):
that was like the best note.Honestly, I think that's great casting that
vision. I just haven't what doyou say to stuff that I kind of
thought, But the way you saidit is better than I could have even
articulated, so oh thank you forgingWell. It's a hard it's a hard
sell. It's not an easy thing. So none of us can be naive
to enough to go oh yeah,just like no, we got to work
(52:21):
for that. But I think Ithink we can because I'm I'm a Chestertonian
irrational optimists, like there's hope,there is that, there really is.
I think that we have to rememberthat, especially in these times. But
before we sign up, by,don't you let everybody know where they can
find Oh? Sure, thank you. Um well, as we said,
(52:42):
Megan Allman, Live Training Institute's websiteis just ProLife training dot com, no
dashes or anything, just ProLife trainingdot com and you'll find resources there about
our speaking team and what we cando. Um. Other than that,
like I'm I'm around and here andthere wherever we're invited, we will go
gladly and give a respectful and winsomepresentation on the pro life view. So
(53:06):
we're happy to do that awesome rabelthing. Thanks for coming on and I'm
looking forward to next time. Thishas been a presentation of the FCB podcast
Network, where real talk lifts visitus online at FCB Podcasts dot com
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