Russell S. Session 7: Step Series at Life Is Good Group - 10/30/2025

Russell S. Session 7 at the Life Is Good Group, Boca Raton 10/30/2025

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (00:00):
My name's Russell.

Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm an alcoholic and I'm a member of the South
Staxie Soume Virtual group.

Speaker 2 (00:10):
Whatever it is. It's good to be here.

Speaker 1 (00:12):
It's good to be back from Buffalo. Yes, Braden asked me, so,
how was Buffalo? I said it was pretty much Buffalo.
Oh lord, it was good that we went up there.
And I'm going to tell you a little bit about
I'm gonna mention a few things about Buffalo. I was

(00:32):
honored to be able to speak at their eighty fourth,
eighty fourth.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Annual AA Convention.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
I mean, I think AA is ninety years old, and
I'm sure they must have started before the Big Book
was written or something. Donald what's going on up there
with that?

Speaker 2 (00:47):
But they're very, very nice people.

Speaker 1 (00:49):
I hate, you know, flying the place, especially when they're
not on stop. I hate all the travel. I'm not
young like it used to be. But I mean, you know,
once I get up there and meet the people, the
people were great, and I ran into quite a few
people that actually, there were quite a few people in
Buffalo that came over from Akron, Ohio. You know, apparently
it's only like three hours away, so you get a

(01:09):
lot of Ohio people and stuff like that. So it
was very nice and I had a good time talk
a little bit about that. So, uh, I mean I
understand whoever came in less didn't do step six and didn't.
Uh So I'm having a sort of mustions that say
all my steps are six. Things have it anyway, so
you want not as much of the difference. But I'm
sort of gonna focus a little bit on that deal.

(01:32):
And I actually I'm gonna elevate Did I say I
was an alcoholic? I mean I think it's a given. Yeah,
it's been at but I am but an event. Uh So,
so I'm gonna focus a little bit about that. But uh,
I'm actually gonna elevate the group a little bit. And uh,

(01:54):
I'm gonna turn into like I'm gonna do a little
masterpiece theater. I wish I had an English accent because
I'm gonna read a poem to you by Robert Frost.
I've always loved this poem, which has something to do
with I had something to do with something I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
You're gonna have to It's gonna be like pulp fiction.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
I'm gonna go all over the place. Why should I
do all the work. You know, it doesn't matter when
I say anything, you're gonna you're gonna hear what you're
gonna hear. Most as, if you hear anything, it'll probably
something I didn't even say. You'll put it all together
and you know, oh, you know, usually give them culture.
He says, Oh, man, when you said the chicken was

(02:35):
on the roof home, and I didn't.

Speaker 2 (02:37):
Even say the chickens on the roof.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
For the it's like an hour talk and then remember like, well, no,
what about the rest of the talking? I just like
that one sentence, you know. But so in Avan, I'm
gonna read this thing from Robert Frost called the road
Less Travel, And you guys ever heard the roach Less Travel.
It's also called two Roads to verd to a yellow Wood.

(03:01):
But I'm gonna read that which has something to do
with whether or not you're going to stay sober. This
is how this has something to do with whether this
you know how in the Big Book they say later
on clear cut, clear cut directions are given as to
how we did this thing or something. You ever see
that line in the Big Book? I think, did I

(03:23):
do that? Did I do the talk? On sentences? There's
all these clear cut sentences in the Big Book. But
nobody knows what this. I never did the sentence that.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
I did. They didn't they didn't hear it.

Speaker 1 (03:39):
But they have all these clear cut sentences in the
Big Book. But the problem with alcoholics is, see this
is the old Goddess. You understand them. And my wife
gave me a character mature of myself. It's like written
by by an artist. I actually put it on my

(04:02):
zoom things sometimes and it just looks like me. But
it looks like me and sort of like Brad Pitt.
It's hard to explain. I wish I could put it
up to you exactly. It looks like me, but I'm
better looking in the in the painting. But in any event,
I think I'm a little thinner. I'm not sure what
it is. But so somebody said the other day, she says,

(04:25):
He says, man, that's a good that's good painting of you.
I said, yeah, well that's that's me, as I understand me.
I mean, it really looks like me, but it's like
a little bit off, you know what I mean, It's like.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Me if I was Brad Pitt.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
You understand what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying,
and that's see. Unfortunately, Look let me tell you something.
I'm in my forty fifth years variety, and I've changed.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
You know, you learn a lot.

Speaker 1 (04:53):
You'll learn a lot coming up on forty five years,
you'll learn a lot. You know, sponsor a lot of
people who hang around to aau, You take a lot of.

Speaker 2 (04:59):
Slips and falls, you get beat up a little, a.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Lot of you know what they called how do we
change again? The perception? It's the Alzheimer's. It's repeated humiliations
and crushing of ourselves.

Speaker 2 (05:13):
Have you, guys?

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (05:14):
Have you?

Speaker 1 (05:15):
You guys are mostly sober, but you know, if you're sober,
you've probably you've probably experienced, even sober, repeated humiliations. You
guys are crushing of something that never stops. It never stops.
I'm telling you it doesn't stop. But thank God, it
doesn't stop, you know. The the Apostle, Paul said, to

(05:37):
keep me from becoming conceited, he wrote thirteen books out
the bibeline. I mean, you know, if you're going to
be a Christian, you want to be like the Apostle,
he said. To keep me from becoming conceded, God gave
me a thorn in my flesh. She never says what
the thorn is. We don't know what it was, but
it was something really Dad. He said, it was like Satanic,
a message of a safety. He asked God to remove it,
to remove the thorn, and God said, he said, I

(06:01):
won't take it away from you. He says, my grace
will be sufficient for you to overcome this. You're gonna
have me, You're gonna be You're gonna be hugging onto
me for the rest of your life because I'm keeping
that throwing because it's to keep you from becoming conceited.
And then he says, this lying because this has a
lot to do with the what we're going to talk about.

(06:23):
This has a lot to do with really what they're
talking about. He says, this is what God says. If
you really want to, if you want to, if you
ever want to get from God as you understand him,
which is a God that looks a lot like you know,
it's like me in that photograph, a God. If you
want to ever want to get from the go from
the God that you like, the God that you're comfortable with,

(06:45):
to the real deal, you understand. If you ever want
to go to the God that you're comfortable with, the
one who has all power, that has all power and
will help you overcome all your problem you ever want
to go to that God away from the God that
you like. You understand what I'm saying, because the God

(07:08):
that you understand them be may not be the real deal.
It may just be the God that you want to
settle for because it doesn't make you uncomfortable. I'm just
saying shit. You know, I'm probably wrong. This is stuff
that I've learned. You know, if you learn stuff over
a period of forty five years of being pounded, you see,
I always have that voice in my mind. Should I

(07:30):
tell them the truth? Or should I just say things
so they like me? And since I got you know
that thing they say in the book, the promise? You
remember that promise they say, book, You'll lose fear of people.
You know, you don't worry about what people. I used
to say that all the time in the bars, I
don't get a ship when they think about me. I
was usually drunk when I said that. I don't give
it because that's the kind of thing because I'm delusional.

(07:51):
I can't separate the truth from the false. My alcohol
thinking see you don't know one. So I like to
tell myself things. I like to say things. I like
to talk to myself because I like to have an
intelligent conversation. So I like to say things like I
don't give a shit when people think about it. I
like to say that a lot. Especially, it's really good
to tell yourself that crap, especially when for the last
three hours you've been worried about the people.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Are going to think about you.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
But you know, you just sort of like bullshit yourself.
You talk to you, tell yourself you don't care. You know,
you're John Wayne, you'r Brad. You tell you some stupid stuff.
But so what happens is, over a period of time,
my perception of God, my perception of myself has changed.
That's the funny thing. When your perception of God changes,

(08:36):
your perception of yourself changes, your perception of the people
around your change, Your perception changes about everything. So I've
learned a lot of stuff. So, you know, So whenever
I speak to a group of people, whether it's here,
you know, whatever, Buffalo, you know, Bally, Indonesia, wherever the
hell I am, you know, I mean, I just talk
about where I'm at at that time. I can't give

(08:57):
the talk that I gave when I had thirty years
because I've actually learned a lot. I've changed a lot
between thirty years and forty five. You understand what I'm saying.
I can't give the talk that I gave when I
had ten years, you know, because I've changed a lot.
And see, so I can only give you the talk
I'm giving now. I can't dumb it down, I can't,
you know. So I just say what I say and

(09:17):
you could take it or leave it, you know. But
I'm just an average alcoholic.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I'm not a special alcoholic. I'm an average.

Speaker 1 (09:24):
Alcohol and so you don't you don't have to get
mad at it.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
You know, it may not apply to you at all.
I mean, but it's think. I'll put it this way.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
I'm a product of doing the steps and sponsoring people,
doing all the stuff you're supposed to do. And I've
just lasted for a bunch of time. And you know,
you can take it or leave it, or you may
find though whether you disagree with Even if you disagree
with me, that's somewhere down the road. If you stay sober,
maybe twenty years or twenty five or thirty years. You
may find yourself in a situation where you're experiencing a

(09:54):
lot of the stuff that I'm actually talking and I
just say, oh, that's about that son.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Of a bitch was talking about it.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
You'll low me in the bends. But I'll probably be
deceased by then, so you'll have to give You'll have
to figure out how to give me a posthumous events.
You can do that, by the way, you know, But uh,
that's okay. I forgive you anyway.

Speaker 2 (10:13):
I don't worry about it. I'm fine with it. I
don't have any.

Speaker 1 (10:15):
Thank god, I don't have any you know. I remember
when I was a couple of years sober, I realized,
I don't know, it came on me like an epiphany
that I had all these people living rent free in
my head. Like whatever I was bothered by, there'd always
be a face. I mean, I had all these people
living rent free in my head, of people that I

(10:37):
was either mad at or jealous of.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Or I didn't like what they did, or it was
unfear or something like that.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
I said, Man, I've got all these people, and this
is doing the stamps still have people, and I any
get rid of the people. You know I'm thinking bad
things about myself and other people. Sober, I'm really alcohol
to hurt people. I can most people are hurt in
my life like the cold Stone. Sober alcohol the only
alcohol did for me allowed me to live with my

(11:03):
sorry as self and go ahead and do it, you
know what I mean. I would probably put a bullet
in my head if I didn't have alcohol by the
time I was twenty one. But alcohol would fix that.
But there'd beach a time where alcohols stopped working.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
But any of then.

Speaker 1 (11:16):
So I go up to Buffalo, and I saw something
very interesting up there, and I'll show you how your
perception changes. I'll give you an example, just a wild example.
So I'll give you one momal example of how my
perception may be different than your perception, not because I'm
better or worse, but just because it's the way I
perceive things now. So they had a countdown. If you

(11:39):
guys ever gone to account, you know what a countdown is? Yeah,
I actually I still like countdowns. I don't like them
as much as I used to like them. But one
of the reasons I like watching them is because it
seems that nobody can really do them right, you know,
there's a way of doing. But whether it's right it wrong.
I like watching them and everything, but I used to
love them, you know. And where they figure out there's

(12:03):
like five or six hundred people, they figure out who
has the least amount of variety. And there's some guy
in the back who with like thirty minutes he had
a trid compy into the room. And then there's a
guy who's got like fifty five years or something. And
and you know when I first came there, you know,
the first let's say ten years or so fifteen something
like that. You know, you get to go to all

(12:23):
these conventions, and you go to the internationals, and went
to five or six international conventions, and you see fifty
you see fifty thousand people in one room saying the
Lord's prayer, you know, fifty thousand people saying the Serenity prayer.
You go into the room and they're packed, and there's
people and you know they're going to a parties that.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
They're going on a cruises.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
Everything's AA, everything's robber aa, you know, and everybody's in
this like AA little cult coughin thing. You know. Oh,
you can't read from that is a conference approved that's
a conference approved. You know what I mean, huh, I
think he violated edition. There's a tradition violation, you know.
I mean, there's a whole bunch of tight asses.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
You know, I mean about that sort of shit.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
You know, like you know, by the way, there's one
of the sentences is there is.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
One who is all powered that what is God?

Speaker 1 (13:14):
That you find him now?

Speaker 2 (13:16):
And God the one you want to find.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
Trust me, you want to find This guy doesn't give
a rats ass about the traditions because he was around
long before the traditions. He doesn't even care about the
big book. He's got a book. But you know, we'll
have to figure that one out. But even you see,
because you start thinking that and this is what Bill

(13:39):
Wilson went about. If you ever want to see what
he was talking about when he had twenty three years
and almost put a bullet in his head. You know,
he was doing the LSD thing, and he went down
the hills when he wrote a book, I'm not a book,
an essay called the Next Frontier emotional Sopriet. He said,
perhaps because he was seeing all these old timers, all
these old timers that were like basket case is they

(14:00):
were not they had the ability to set well, an
old time back then would have been twenty three years,
you know, and all these old timers that had passed
the drinking test, the drinking test, and so they can
pick up a twenty three year medallion or a twenty
year medallion. Yeah, by the way, let me here's another
sentence in the big book. How's this for a sentence?

(14:22):
You know? See, people understand. See the paragraphs are easy.
See I'm a lawyer. So you give me a paragraph,
I'll find a loophole. Give me a paragraph, I'll find
a loophole. I'll find a way of saying. Well, yeah,
that's what you think it means, but this is what
I think it means. But sentences are tough. That's when

(14:45):
you separate the men from the boys. That's when you separate,
you know, the spiritual kindergarten from the real deal, the
sentences of problem. You know, because it's hard to bullshit.
The sen says, the sentences are rough. God is everything
or he's nothing. Here is one that has all power,

(15:09):
that is God, God is everything or he's nothing. What's
your decision gonna be. But if you can take, like,
let's say, an appendix, like we'll call it appendix two.
If you can add an appendix two to that, it's
sort of like living like it's like a chaser, you know,
like you get spread scotch when you can give a
water chaser or somebody, if you can somehow water that

(15:30):
down with what an appendix two, which essentially says, Oh,
whatever the hell you want to do, whatever you want
to do, it doesn't matter all that stuff I said.
You know, you know, hey, what does it say? Uh?
What does it say about atheists? What did doctor Bob say?
If you're an atheist, an agnostic, or some sort of
spiritual pride, spiritual pride that keeps you from understanding what

(15:54):
we're trying to get to you tell you in this deal,
I feel sorry for you, you heavenly father, We'll never
let you down. So that's a sentence. Okay, that's a
sentence that it doesn't even sound like a nice sentence.
Does that sound like a nice shoe? It's the last
thing talked about. If you're an atheist or an agnostic,
I'm some sort of spiritual pride that keeps you from

(16:15):
understanding what the hell we're trying to tell you. I
feel sorry for you, your heavenly Father will never let you down.
That's a sentence. But then what you could do is
you could take like a you could add a few
more sentences to that on the top, and on the
bottom you could add an appendix two to that, and
then it sounds like do whatever the hell you want
to do. It doesn't matter you say. You could say

(16:36):
in the book, for instance, here's a sentence. The sentences
is something like it says, you've got to abandon this
idea of atheism and agnosticism must be abandoned. That's a sentence,
you know.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Or or or.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Burn it into the mind of the alcohol job or
no job, wife or no wife. You can stay sober
as long as he trusts God things else. That's a sentence, right,
But you can put a whole bunch of things around that,
you know what I mean. And then it's kind of
because so you can have people that say, oh, yeah,
I read the book. I've read the book many times,
but they just never read the sentences because the sentences

(17:23):
that they don't like they sort of skip over and
they get sort of.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Like the GISTs.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
But the gist of the book is like me saying, yeah,
that's me as I understand it's not the real deal.
The real deal you get. You fine tune the god thing.
What happens. How the way the god thing is fine
tuned based upon the punches and the and the and

(17:53):
the hurts and the pains and the crushes you get
as you try to stay.

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Sober through life.

Speaker 1 (18:02):
You know you can, you can be you can you
can both shot yourself for a certain period of time.
But life is fucking difficult. You know, cancer is not easy.
Being broke is not easy. Being alone is not easy.
And just because and here's a sentence, how about this?

(18:23):
I like this sentence. Drinking is but a symptom of
the problem drinking. Have you ever have you guys ever
been to me where they talk about drinking a lot.
They say, don't drink and basketball, so I don't drink,
and go to me and they do a lot of
things about drinking. They talk, the people get up and
they tell their drinking story. Nobody's drinking, but they tell

(18:43):
their drunk a log anyway, you know, for the new
for the newcomer, it's good for all the time time.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Good newcomer.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
But did you know that drinking is not even the problem?
Did you know that you know, you know this, you
remember this said rarely haven't seen Parzraelia has thoroughly followed
our path. They said that in the big book that
was published in nineteen thirty nine. Their path was what
they did between thirty five and thirty nine.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
That was four years.

Speaker 1 (19:08):
And they didn't have to worry about so much about
the first step. You know why, because they were all
low bottom drunks. So they all volunteered. They said, please
help me. You didn't have to talk them into it.
Or as the Cleveland guy said, Clarence the Brewmaster, as
he said, I did what I was ordered to do.
There were no suggestions, and back then we don't do it.

(19:29):
We don't do that, and we don't do any of
these stuff anymore, none of it. We don't do what
they do back between thirty five, because here's what they do.
Back then, these guys were so desperate. They were so
desperate that when they were told this is the way
they did it to go when they said I want
to go to the meetings, in order to go to
the meeting, you had to get on your knees in

(19:53):
front of everybody that was already in the group, would
give your life to God. Did you know that the
entry there was no picking up white hips the ante
into the meetings? What God you went to the means
so they can see you, says, No one is so
discredited to be cordially welcomed in alcoholics Anonymous long as
he means business.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
The way they figured.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Out if you mean that in that business is if
you got on your knees in front of everybody else
that was in AA and you gave your life to God.
So the way of getting into the meeting so they
knew you were serious is to do the third step
in front of everybody, which is.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Humbling, which is humbling.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
I'm sure there are people here right now that if
I said in order to say, you're gonna have to
get on your knees and give your life to God,
I'm sure there's a whole bunch of people that will
walk out and say I don't hear this shit. But
yet they didn't have a lot of people standing up
and said you ever been doing me? And my God says, well,
if they push God on me, I would have walked
out of here. I said, you wouldn't have been here.
You got guys all rady saying, don't talk about, God,

(20:56):
you're killing newcomers. You know, this has nothing to do
with what they were doing between nineteen thirty five.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
And nineteen thirty nine. We talked about the good old time.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
So here's this sentence.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
A sentence says.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
It says drinking.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Is but a symptom of the disease.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
So everything we talk about in AA nine percent of
stuff we talk about in AA that we I shouldn't
say talking about emphasize that we emphasize in AA in
meetings because you really focus on the newcomer, which is
not necessarily bad or good, it's just it is. Everything
we focus on in AA has to do with currently

(21:34):
now has to do with the symptom. That's why Bill Wilson,
in twenty three years sobriety was going through the depression.
He said, I'm understand what's going on here? And he said,
he said, I don't know what's going on. What's wrong
with me? Sometimes you'll find some for some people that
hits it five years, some people at ten years, some
people with fifteen twenty years.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
You have to run.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
You have all this time, and you're you're unhappy when
you're surviving. You're unhappy because you know why because the
book says, the sentence says, our drinking is but a
symptom of the disease. So whatever you're suffering from now,
if you're worried about people and what they're going to
think about you, if you have fear, if you have anxiety,

(22:17):
if you're worried about money, it says, fear of people
and of economic and security. Believe us, whatever you're worried about,
whatever is keeping you from being happy and haveing joined
your life, has nothing to do with alcohol. You know why,
because there's this other sentence, Uh, drinking is but a
symptom disease. The real disease centers in your mind, centers

(22:41):
in your mind. So if you focus on the alcohol,
it's nice thing to focus on what they did. What
happens is you may miss the real disease, just like
you may miss the real God. You may miss the
real disease. You understand, that's the deal, because you may
you may be doing the God of your imagination and

(23:02):
then you come up with imaginary sobriety. You know, that's
something like that, that kind of deal. So so in
any of it, So that has nothing to do with it.
By the way, that has nothing with what I wanted
to talk about.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
So you've been together.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Don't even get worrying about that. Okay, but uh so,
so here.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
I'm gonna read. I gotta read this. Let me get
this out of the way.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
This is the master be said. This is the poem
which has something to do maybe with sobriety. O. Hey,
this is called road less strout. Okay, this is Robert Frost.
Two roads diverged in a yellow wood, and sorry, I
could not travel both and be one traveler. Long. I

(23:43):
stood and looked down one as far as I could
to where it bends in the undergrowth. You got to see,
there's two roads, So which one do I take? Then
then took the other, just as just as fair, and
having perhaps the better claim, because it was grassy and wanted.

(24:05):
Where though as for that the passing there have warned
them really about the same, and both that morning equally
lay you got the two roads in leaves no step
had trodden black. Oh, now here we go. I kept

(24:28):
the first for another day, yet, knowing how way leads
on to Whey, I doubted if I should ever come back. Okay,
here's the here's the deal that applies to you. This
is what this is going to decide whether or not
you drink it fifteen years or ten because I know,
based upon statistics there's a whole bunch of people he

(24:50):
who are going to drink. I'm not saying anybody here
is going to drink, but statistically most of y'all, I'm
not going to make it. It's just not going to happen,
you know. I'm some statisticate. Now I can tell you guys.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Who are much more spiritual. You're all spiritual, not religious.

Speaker 1 (25:05):
I get you're a very spiritual group here, you know,
so you'll probably all do okay, you know, but on
some groups, so I always get just in case. I
always know that there's gonna be I know because I've
I've seen a few things. You know, it's that Farmer's commercial.
We know a lot because we've seen a lot. Because
what happens is over forty five years, I've gone from
the point right where I'm oh wow, ow about aa.

(25:28):
I know everybody's going to stay sober forever. So I
know that only maybe one a half or one percent,
one over two hundred is going to stay sober for
forty years, for thirty years, you see.

Speaker 2 (25:39):
I know because I've seen a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
I should be telling I should I shall be telling
this with a sign somewhere ages and ages. Hence two
roads diverged in a wood, and I I took the
one less travel by. I took the narrow road. You know,
don't take the broad highway where everybody goes and they

(26:05):
take the narrow road where I took the narrow road.
And that's made all the difference. And this is a
matter of choices. So the sixth step says, is this
is a step that separates the members from the boys.
That's a sentence. It separates the men from the boys.
There's going to be a separation in AA. So I

(26:28):
looked at this countdown in Buffalo, and I used to
look at that and says, look at all these people
staying sober. And so they did the kid countdown in Buffalo.
And the way they did the countdown was is they
started like, sixty years. Is there anybody with sixty years
stand up?

Speaker 2 (26:45):
Nobody?

Speaker 1 (26:45):
Anybody with fifty years sixty years stand up? When you know,
then they went down fifty nine fifty eight. I didn't
like this. It takes a long time. Fifty seven, fifty six,
fifty five one guy stood up. Everybody clapped, fifty four,
fifty three, fifty two, fifty one, fifty forty nine, one
guy stood up, okay, forty eight, forty seven, forty six,

(27:09):
forty five. I stood up. I'm in the study. I
stood up in forty four, so I'm gonna make forty
fifty year. But instead of forty four, forty three guys,
forty two, forty one, forty two people stood up, thirty nine,
thirty eight, and it goes all the way down, and
then then around twenty five or so, then four people
stood up twenty four, you know, Lucie. And when that
is when down lowerd s, there's more and more people

(27:31):
stood up. Everybody stood up, so you see. So so
now I look at that, you see, And that's so
that I look at countdowns differently. And when I look
at countdowns, I see that nobody's staying. So I see
what Bill Wilson saw at twenty three years. You see,
I look at it. You know, when I had two years,
everybody was staying sober. Forevery ever, because you can't tell.

(27:55):
Every once in a while the guy comes up or
you'll hear a story he says, well, I've been around ay,
for twenty years. I've been Oh I had, I had
twenty years and then I drank, And you'll hear that stuff,
but it'll go like right over your head because that's
never going to happen to you because you're you know,
the only reason people drink, it's because they stopped going
to means. And you're ever gonna stop going to meetings,
you know what I mean, So that will never happens.
That's like a rare thing, right, you know, people having

(28:18):
time in drinking. But the truth is it's not a
rare thing.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
It's the rule.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
The exception to the rule is people that stay sober
after twenty years. That's the exception to the rule. And
what Bill Wilson noticed that in that essay the next
Frontier emotional sobriety, is that you had a lot of
old timers that had gone through the boost test, but
they weren't happy with his sobriety. And so I know

(28:47):
you're gonna ask Pat Rogan about this that whenever I'm
speaking to a group, there's some guy there with ten
years who's going to be drunk on the next year,
and he doesn't even realize it. It's going to happen
you know why because of his choices, because he didn't
take the roadbust travel. So the sixth step, the one
that says.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
This is the step that separates the men.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
From the boys. So he says, well, what divis people out?
And this is what the sixth step says. Here's a
sentence for you. I'm saying the sentence sounds like this.

Speaker 2 (29:17):
It's writing.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
The sixth step that says, he says, a well loved clergyman. Interesting,
now clergymen are involved. It was involved in Bill Wilson too,
when he was trying to figure out what the problem was,
what the problem was, why he was twenty three or
sober and suicidal and going down two is what was
the problem. And he finally he said, he said, I
know there's an answer because these some people. Once in

(29:40):
a while you rant to somebody who seems to have
broken the sound barrier. He says, he called them the
benighted ones, the united ones. He said, perhaps they will
be the spearhead of the next major development and aloof synonymous.
And he never says what the next major development is,
and there's note book that says what the next major

(30:02):
development is.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
He does give a hint and the hint he gives.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
He says, my real problem was dependency, dependency on people, places, things,
this world, and my dependency on AA. My dependency on AA.
Because if you think AA is the answer, the only answer,

(30:30):
you may be settling for saying so for a while
while missing maybe another answer, you may be stunting your growth.
And you know how he you know what he stared at?
You know what he stared at? And he said, he
stared at the prayer of Saint Francis of A C C.

(30:51):
You know that prayer. He stared at that prayer written
way before AA. And he said, the answer I knew
the answer shirt was in that prayer. I knew the
answer was in that prayer. Why can't I get it?
He knew the answer was in non conference approved material?

(31:17):
And things got so painful for him. He was forced
to look at non conference approved material. That's why it
says we lose pressures even against religious people. We see
where they may be right. Things got so painful for him.

(31:38):
He had to start looking at what the steps were
all about. And what the steps were all about was
there is one who has all power. That one is God.
May you find him?

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Now?

Speaker 1 (31:49):
So what good does it do for you to for
a man to, you know, gain the whole world and
lose his soul? What difference does it make if you
don't make the difference? What difference does to make if
you've memorized the Big Book and you've done the steps
a million times and you sponsored two million people, and
you're doing all this if you're still unhappy and you
worry about what other people think about you. What difference

(32:12):
does it make if you can't even talk to anybody
about it because you've got intellectual pride and you're scared
to talk to people because you're worried about the thinking
about it. And they're not talking about any of this
stuff in the eighties. They're just talking about the don't
drink and go to meetings. And you haven't had a
drink in five years or ten years, and you're just
slowly or you're worried about a romantic partner or a

(32:33):
man or a woman, And what difference does it make? So?
So the bottom line is so so you know, so
the bottom line is that's what? So step seven. Let
me read your sentence in step seven, a couple of sentences.
There's steps so specific concerns itself with humility, whatever that is,

(32:56):
that's what it concerns itself with you. What does humility mean?
The attainment of greater humility is the foundation principle of
every step in AA. Did you know that? Did you
know that the attainment that every step in AA is
about humility? Did anybody ever tell you that? I don't

(33:17):
know what you probably thought it was Scott figuring out
your defects of character. That's what you thought. You thought
it was about making amends? Right? Did you know that
every step is about attaining humility? I guess thanking amends
is a humbling thing. Looking at who you want to
with you, I guess that's humbling. I guess betting your
needs to God is humbling. You almost be real hundred

(33:38):
humbling going to a group of people and worry about
what they think about you and talking about God anyway,
Maybe that's humble. You know, you know, you know, here's
the sentence. We never apologize for God. We're never ashamed
of God. All men of fact and faith have courage.
Did you know all men of faith have courage? You

(34:00):
know that means? That means if you don't have faith,
you're a power.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
You live a life of fear.

Speaker 1 (34:07):
All matter of faith have courage, they trust their God. Well,
if that's true, if all men of faith have courage,
and we never apologize for God, and there is one
of us in power that is God, and God and
God must be the central fact of your life and
there is no middle of the road solution. If all
that is true, then you really should be able to

(34:32):
talk about it. But what if you can't talk about it,
if you're worried about what other people think about it, Well,
then you're really not sober, are you're not emotionally sober?
You can't claim sobriety. Well, you can claim that, you
can claim that you'd be eaten the symptom, but you
can't claim that you really have dealt with the disease

(34:56):
that centence in your.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
Mind, because you still.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
Live the life of a falling lif don't you. Because
all you're trying to do is get other people like you,
and you're scared to even talk about the most important
thing in the book. Right, that's got to be a
coming way of living life. I know it's a coming
way because that's why I live my life before I
come day, And that's the why I lived my life
for many years after that. Kam It says, Indeed, the

(35:18):
day attainment of bringing ability is the foundation principle of
each of A's twelve steps. Without some degree of the ability,
no alcohol can stay sober at all. And nearly all
a's that would be talking about people like you have
make nearly all a's have found too that unless they
developed much more of a precious quality that may be

(35:41):
required for just physical sobriety, they still haven't much chance
of becoming happy. Andy's still having much chance of becoming happy.
It takes a lot of ability to bend, you, know,
it says in the Big Book that says all met
of faith have couraged. They trust their God. They never

(36:06):
apologize for God if he repeats it again. Instead, they
let him demonstrate what God through their testimony, what God
has done for them in their lives. And it says,
then when you can do that, and you can testify
what the Lord has done for you, says, then you
begin to outgrow fear. So what would your life be

(36:28):
like if you didn't have fear of an anxiety? Anxiety?
What kind of person would you be? What kind of
life would you have if you could outgrow fear and anxiety.
Let's say you could talk to AA people in a
group just the way I'm talking to him right now,
I'm talking about the stuff I'm talking about, you know,

(36:49):
whereas I've heard say many times, I never heard that
in any of the groups I go to. I talk
about it all the time in all the groups I'll
go to. How come I can do it and you can't?
Why can't you do it? Well? Because because you have
to take a different road. You got to take the
road let's travel. They talk about it in the Big Book.
It's all over the Big Book, by the way, But

(37:11):
you got to look at the sentences. You can't get
you can't get balanced up by the by the paragraphs
where they where they say, you know where they there's
sentences that talk about God, God, God? Hey how about
this one?

Speaker 2 (37:26):
Here about that? But we won't know.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
This is the last page, but we won't know. You
we cannot be sure. Because your real reliance wants to
be on God. He will show you how to create
the fellowship you prave. It's going to be a godly
fellowship where they talk about God, not one where they
tell you don't talk about God. You're killing your coomers.
See to which your relationship with him is right. God
is right, great events will come to pass you and

(37:49):
countless others. So you got basically, ultimately what happens in
AA is you have two groups of people. You have
people that are focused on God. Well, like Bob knew
this stuff. Bob's the guy who said the books we
found absolutely essential. Well first twith is thirteen Summon, the
Matter Book of James. Bob was the one who if

(38:09):
you asked them what's this about? He say, look at
the book the good Book. If you ask Bob what
is first? Things? First? Meaning? If you ask Bob Smith,
he says, seeking first, the Kingdom, God and his.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Righteouses, all things to be added unto you.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
If you look at how Bob twelve step, this isn't
Doc Bob the Goodell Timers book that something read on
how he twelve step Clarence the Snyder. First question he
asked him is do you believe in God? First question?
He's lying in a hospital.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
Do you believe in God? He says, what does that
have to do with?

Speaker 1 (38:35):
He says, everything that's a sentence, Everything is a sentence. Well,
I guess I do guess nothing you either, do you
don't well, I do it good. Now, get down off
the hospital bed.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
We're gonna pray.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
I don't know how to pray. Just do what I
tell you to do. And he told him to say
the Lord's the Sinner's prayer. And then, as Clarence said
in the book Doctor Bob and the Good Old Times,
he says, I did what I was ordered to do.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
Us no suggestion.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
That's aa, that's the next frontier. That's the spearheads to
the next frontier. Going back to the way they did
it back then, where you can get into a meet
unless you get that on your knees. And I can
tell you what those means were a little bit different
because nobody got up and got pissed off and walked
out because of the God thing. Because the only way
they got in is they had to say they believed
in God. They had to bend the knee, you know.

(39:27):
So it has have to do with anything. So so
so okay, so how's this. So here's the deal. My
wife told me, I think I've told you this story.
I'm gonna do this real fast.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
I can't give you the whole thing. So I have
this wonderful wife, I have this beautiful baby. I have
this beautiful house. She says, you come home trunk more time.
I'm leaving you. That's a sentence, twelve p twelve words,
you come home. I was sober when she said it.
You know, I was a division chief in the State
Serny's office trying murder cases.

Speaker 2 (39:54):
You know, I'm not stupid.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
I got all sorts of diplomas on the wall that
testify as to I've been getting far beyond my capacity
to understand shit.

Speaker 2 (40:02):
And the bottom line is and the bottom line is
is that.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
So I get in my car, you know, and I've
been going out every night from you know, out until
four o'clock in the morning. Look at all the blondes
and brunettes and redheads, saying to myself, never cheated, but
saying to myself, if I wasn't married, I could, I
could go up with that. But I go out with
this one. You know what I mean. You know that's
the deal. And she says, you can come on drunk
one more time.

Speaker 2 (40:24):
I'm leaving you.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
I get in my car, I drive three blocks, I
stop the red light. That's a sentence, if you come
home drunk one And I say to myself what the
hell do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Clear cut directions?

Speaker 1 (40:36):
You see, that's what an alcohol does with clear cut directions,
what an alcohol does with a sentence like you come
home fromp with me and you're saying, what the fuck
is that all about? It? You know, that's Blare Dunton directions.
I go into the bar. Doug Hartt puts his arm
around me. He says, Russell, you're a great guy. Your
wife will never leave you.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
You all love you.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
The greatest guy in the world.

Speaker 2 (40:55):
You say, man, that's exactly.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
What I was thinking. And I was sober when I
said that. And I have a couple of drinks down,
a couple more than four o'clock in the morning.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
I leave with that's the end of the marriage.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
You know.

Speaker 2 (41:06):
You know why?

Speaker 1 (41:07):
Because I had to travel that road. I couldn't travel
the road let's travel. I couldn't travel. I had no choice.
I had no choice. So I'm sitting there with the
marriage counselor. The marriage counselor asked my wife, because she
wanted to try to get together again, you have a
baby and everything like that, and she was a woman
of integrity, and he asked her, how do you want

(41:28):
to change Russell. She said something. I wasn't listening. I
had a date with the redhead. I said, man, they're
dragging me back into this thing, you know. And he says, Russ,
what do you want? How do you want to change
your wife? I said, I just want to date other women.
That was you. I was as sober as I am
right now when I said that. I could not.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
I could not.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
I'm know how to explain this. I could not not
say that. I mean, I'm an alcoholic. I don't do stupid,
evil things to people and rip their heart because I'm drinking.
I do that sober. I'm an evil shit sober. I'm

(42:08):
a selfish evil. You know you're you're probably you're nicer alcoholics.
I can tell that, But I'm not a nice alcohol
I'm you. But I had no choice, so I come
down alcoholics anonymous. My sponsors picked me up very every
night at five thirty. Every night five thirty picks me up.
We go out to dinner. He pays for dinner. I
love this guy, you know, I know he really likes me.

Speaker 2 (42:31):
He pays for dinner.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
And then we go to a meeting, and then after
meeting we go out and everything like that. And we
just have a great time. And I go that and
I'm sitting in bed and I know my sponsor is
gonna call it. I start watching a rerun of Star
Trek what I've seen ten times, and I'm really getting
into the Star Trek therapy, you know what I mean.
They're real good. I mean, I know what's gonna happen.
I really get into the Star Trek. And I'm thinking,

(42:56):
and now I'm getting tired. I'm into Star Trek and
I'm thinking. My sponsor's gonna call me up, and I
want to really watch the Star Trek thing and and
and then all of a sudden, I start feeling my
neck and I had mononucleosis, so I know what's going on.
My My glands are swelling up real I can hardly talk,
I can't even swallow. I know I'm getting monor nucleosis.

(43:16):
And my my sponsor calls me up and says, so, Russe,
where do you want to go to dinner? And I said, Bob,
I don't think I can go. On my glanders are swollen,
and I think I have mono lucleosis and I don't
think I can go. And he says, you know, Russell,
when you start making excuses for going to me, for

(43:37):
not going to mes, maybe you're thinking it's okay to
drink again. And all of a sudden, my glands went down.
I said, I swear to God, it's a true story.
It's a true story. I was incapable. I was incapable,
you know. The greatest thing that happened to me. Thank God,
I have a sponsor who could do that to me?

(43:57):
How did he know I wasn't sick. I put on
a real good act. How did he know that? And
you know what the interesting thing is is is that
I was incapable of getting out of that bed as
sick as I was. You know what I mean? If
if he had allowed me to get away with it
the next time, it would have been something else, have
been something, and you know something I wouldn't have forty

(44:18):
five years. Now, I'd be one of those guys. Well
I have a lot of time, but now I have
ninety days. You know. Because I was incapable of making
the choice, I came to alcoholics anonymous, and I was
still kept making choices. But the long guy I stayed
around and I hung around these people, they would make
the choice for me. He says, you're going to make
the coffee tonight and want to make the copy. I

(44:40):
make coffee because I had to make the coffee. Because
I had to be the the whatever, the chairman of
the head guy and whatever, the group guy. You know,
when you own a group, what is that thing when
you the secret guy be You got to be the
secretary of this group. You got to do this, you
got to sponsor this, you got I did all these
things people told me to do. You know, any if
you sold me do any service for the first ten years,

(45:02):
it's because some sponsor said.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
You need to do this.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
You need to be the integroup banker chip, you need
to get involved in this, you need to do you
need to be on relay trade. It was because somebody
else had the idea. And then one day I ran
into somebody and.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
They told me.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
They told me this, They said because I was dying
at ten years and I was dying at AA and
I hadn't left them. I was going to three meetings
a day. I was sponsoring everything that moved. I was
even speaking. I was doing these steps series all over
the place, you know what I mean. People were listening
to me, you know, and all that sort of stuff.
And I was dying. You know, it's very hard to
tell people you're dying and you're suicidal and you're lonely,

(45:40):
and you don't know what to do when you're doing
the Steps series that night. You know what I'm talking about.
It's a difficult sort of situation because of the pride,
because of the pride, because you have no humility, because
you have no humility. And I was dying.

Speaker 2 (45:53):
So I told some one guy with the prophems.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
He says, you need to go to Bible study, says
you need to go.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
To Bible stuff.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
Oh no, no, Bible is bad. I think as I
don't think that's conference approof I didn't there, don't think something.
I don't think it's confidence of root. I don't think
it's a conference approved. I hadn't read the Doctor about
the Good Old Times. I didn't realize that that's what
they were doing, and that's all the stuff they were doing.

Speaker 2 (46:15):
They weren't reading the Big Book.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
And so I told them I was You said, you
don't understand I'm spiritual. Can't you tell I'm spiritual not religious?
And he said, well, I don't care, don't go I'm
just telling you what you need to do, because I
had forgotten the whole point of the whole deal of
doing the steps and everything. The whole point of all
this stuff that we do is not to avoid believing

(46:38):
in God, but to find God. Now that's just a sentence,
but there's all these sentences around that sentence. So you
do all the work, and you do everything, you wind
up being the perfect AA. But you have no relationship
with God. You have a relationship with your are and

(47:00):
for your wife, and with your job and all this stuff.

Speaker 2 (47:03):
Because you're in love with the things of this world.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
You're addicted to them, and therefore you're saying to see
you fall in the same category that Bill fell into.
I wanted God, I needed him, and he came. He came,
but soon his presidence was blotted out by worldly clamors,
mostly within myself. So I became a guy that was
all AA, and I was all chasing after everything in
the world, and God was something I pulled out of

(47:26):
my pocket and the glove compartment. When I went up
the room and I said the Lord's prayer, the surraining prayer,
and he asked me if I believed in God. I said, yeah,
I believed in God. If he asked me who he
was or anything, I thought.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
I had no idea what you talking about? Do you
believe God? And I had no idea what you're talking about?

Speaker 1 (47:41):
So you know what I had to do. I had
to leave a I didn't.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
I never left AA. I never did one of these
things I went there.

Speaker 1 (47:46):
I had to leave that group of people that walking
on the broad Highway, you know what I mean. I
had to go to another group of people, and there
was some believe or not. There was some alcoholics with
fifty years in that. I had to go to a group.
Another group of it was full of Bible study. And
all of a sudden, I started focusing on that and
focusing on that and going to a HEA. And then

(48:07):
not only did I not drink and go to meetings
and do all the steps, but I also found the
God in my understanding. And I started reading another book,
same book doctor Bob was reading. You know when he
said to Bill Wilson's last words, he says, let's not
screw this thing up, keep it simple. And then I
started reading that book. And then you know what I
started doing. I stopped looking at starting. I stopped looking

(48:28):
at blondsberness and redheads. You know, I started. I started
cherishing my wife and my children, and I started cherishing
the people in AA and I started and I gave
up golf because it took too much time, four hours,
and I'd rather spend four hours trying to help alcoholics.
And I made that choice. And I didn't make that
choice because the sponsor told me I had to make
that choice. I made that choice because I had a God,

(48:50):
and I knew what God wanted me to do, and
I believe by God, and he said, job, Your job
is to be a actual purpose to God and other
people needed to help other people and love on other
people and treat everybody like that openharp as they probably do.
And then something amazing happened. I started doing that. And
I didn't even do it because I first started doing
because I thought I had to do it in order
to please God, because it's payback for God, because I

(49:12):
was grateful to God. Because Bill wasn't said, the Lord
has been so wonderful to me, curre of me of
this trouble. Lease I got to keep talking about telling
the people that says, and then I started enjoying it.
And then I started not My wife said well, let's
go on a cruise. I said, yeah, if I'm going
out on a cruise, i'll miss my meetings. And all
of a sudden, I started enjoying helping other people.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
And then you know you're in real trouble.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
You know, when your life becomes the enjoyment of your
life is not playing golf, for buying a new car
or any of that stuff. You know, not the things
of this world, but your whole life is about trying
to help other people and point them in a direction
that maybe A is not really pointing it in. So
I making you understand what I'm saying. And then an
amazing thing happened. I started talking about other people talking

(49:57):
at groups and meetings at conventions, God and what God
done to me. You don't give them this kind of
a deal, you know what I mean? And it became
natural to me, became easy to me because I didn't
apologize for God. I was ashamed of God because I
don't know how this happened, but I lost fear of
whether they liked me or not. I lost fear of
whether people like me or not. In AA and when

(50:21):
I started losing fear with other people like me a
lot in AA. I lost fear whether people like me
or not outside of AA, and then I lost fear
of being judged by the people. And then the next
thing I knew, I never thought of other people in
my mind. I didn't have a whole bunch of people
in my mind. And I didn't even have to make
a lot of amends, because the only time you have
to make amends is when you hurt people. And I

(50:43):
stopped hurting people. I just stopped hurting people, you know,
And so you see, so you see it's a little
bit different with me. Now you understand it's a little
different with me. Now my life has changed, and I

(51:07):
stop worrying about dying. You know, I've had cancer three
times and told me says, okay, it's okay. As my sponsor,
John Gunn used to say, my bags are packed ready
to go, so all I could do. So so I
come here, and so I'm saying, well, I'm gonna talk
about my life and I'm talking about what happened to me,

(51:29):
and it may not happen to you, and you may
think it's screw it, but I'm gonna be honest. I'mna
be at least transparent, right right, So you know when
it goes to my mind, that little thought that goes
see you might ah, but you tell them all that
somebody is not gonna like you. Well, you know, you
throw a rock into a pack of dogs, the one
that yelps allowed, this is the one that gets hit.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
You know, it's the one that gets hit.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
So you got you get to decide, You get to
make a choice. You get to make a choice. You
go down the broad highway that everybody to conform yourself
and says, do not conform yourself to the world, but
be transformed by God. And the big body says, become reborn.
So you get to make a choice. Somewhere along the line.

(52:12):
Are you gonna just be another AA person? Don't drink
and go to beatings, be a nice AA person, don't
say anything that may upset people. Are you gonna take
the road less travel?

Speaker 2 (52:26):
Not true chat?

Speaker 1 (52:27):
But there are consequences to these choices. This world has
a lot of world declamors, and it's twenty four to seven,
twenty four to seven. They never stop, and they don't
necessarily come at you because you did something wrong as
a consequences of reaction assaults, sometimes they do. Sometimes you

(52:47):
just get beat over the head. And the older you get,
the more likely you're gonna get beat over the head.
Not because you're stupid, but because you know you're gonna
get cancer. People are gonna die. There's gonna be stuff happening.
My younger brother is in the hospital and my baby brother.
I've got to watch over them now, you know, I've
got kids. Things happen all around you that you have
to be concerned about, and things are going to happen

(53:07):
with you in your life. You know, you think you're
worried about yourself, how about worrying about yourself, your wife,
you know, your kids, your grandkids, the people that work
for you in your office, and so I mean it
gets more complicated. You know, it's a big diderstince, just
worried about your little old self and then being concerned

(53:29):
with all everything else that's going on as the world
is coming at you. Because your landlord doesn't come out
up to you and say you don't have to pay
the rent, because we know you're in AA and you
want to be sober, so we're letting you slide. You
understand what I'm saying, and the only thing that protects
you from the world and the world, the clamors and
Bill Wilson learned this is faith in God because all

(53:52):
men and women who have faith have courage, they trust
their God. And you go to a room and you
say something like that, and so Art comes up to
you and says, you got a cool it on the
God thing. You're pissing off people, right, So you'll figure
it out.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
You'll figure it out or not. You'll figure it out
or not.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
But if you ever get a point where you got
two through four, five, seven years or something like that,
and you and you you find that you're not feeling
good and you don't know what the answer is because
you're doing everything they're telling you, and maybe have something to.

Speaker 2 (54:25):
Do with look we're talking about right here.

Speaker 1 (54:27):
Maybe you'll look back at this talk and say, I
think that's what that guy was talking about, because that's
how we grow up through pain. It's the touch stuck
the pain. So thank you very much