Candyman (1992) | Episode #144 - Abyss Gazing: A Horror Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Biscaysing, a horror podcast where we celebrate all
things spooky and at mental health.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
I'm your co host Mark, I'm the second of the
trio Billy.

Speaker 1 (00:19):
And I am the co host that will inevitably if
we meet face to face, ask you to be his victim.
My name is Josh and we are joined my we moto,
our friends over at Dusky Projects. And black women are Scary. Hello,
how are you doing.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Hi, glad to be here. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
Oh so glad. So congratulations on the conclusion of black
women Are Scary, which was kind of this anthology almost
Are You Afraid the Dark kind of podcast, he tells
us a little bit about those that for people that
may not know what that is.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:56):
So it was a I produced short horror story by
BIPOC authors and so we were doing that for three seasons.
The fourth seasons is actually just focusing on flash fiction
based on real events. So this last one we closed
out was that. So you know, in it, you would
hear a nice little short thing. Usually they were like
five to ten minutes, and it would we have would

(01:18):
think the article in there of what it was based on.
So it was real, real weird things that are happening
in the world and like fun scary stories based on that.
But you know, we would feature authors, different authors every
month and for a while, and the shutdown is when
we started, we had virtual mixers. People could meet each other,
so it was really a spot for anybody who wanted
to know about up and coming writers coming out in genre,

(01:41):
wanted to meet authors, wanted to know about work. I
would also have had you on, so we had episodes
where we would talk to other people who work block
you know, podcasters and whatnot who work in in genre
spaces and talk about the episodes and stories. So it's
just really a celebration. I wanted to find my tribe,
which is why I started it. I was like, I

(02:02):
can't be the only one who feels his way about this.
So it was very much like a call like I'm
put up my lighthouse. I met a lot of really
great people and some incredible writers and podcasters and folks,
and I'm super stoked that I did it and that
it exists, and like you check it out, you know
it's there for all time.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
It's really it feels like it's really rare these days
to kind of like hear someone talk about the pandemic
because it seems like a lifetime ago, and it's yeah,
five years ago. But I mean our podcast was also
birthed out of Out of the Pandemic as well. Mark
we kind of joked about this last week. Mark was
kind of showed up for talk about is Zach zach

(02:45):
efrod Ted Bundy movie it just.

Speaker 4 (02:47):
Never Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
That one, and he's killing and eating He's eaten good
these days. But I'm kind of curious, like, you know,
I know that you guys are kind of in the
process of kind of transitioning away from that, but what
are some of the things that you learned in your
time with black women are scary kind of heading that

(03:13):
you're bringing into some of these newer projects.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
I let's geez gosh.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
Yeah, contracts. I learned how to make contracts. I learned, yeah,
I know. I learned how to talk about business, you know,
and how how to approach people in that way and
take myself seriously and schedule.

Speaker 3 (03:34):
So I learned a lot about producing.

Speaker 4 (03:36):
I am now the EP on a short film that's
coming out this summer, and so I really think a
lot of the producing that I did on the on
the podcast has translated into that also, Black Women Are
Scary was meant to be a live event, and that
is kind of the next step now is how.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Can we make it.

Speaker 4 (03:55):
Live because it was supposed to be live storyteller. So
I'm going to be messing around with that idea later
this year, along with, you know, just the heavy lift
of ending post production and going into a screening tour
a on a short film with that I, you know,
Raise Li. I was able, lucky enough, and tenacious enough
to get a bunch of grants. So it's one of

(04:17):
the biggest films that I've made, Like it has so
many bells and whistle and I'm really going to see
it all the way through into distribution and so that's
also like a huge step. And I don't think I
could have done that. I know that I couldn't have
done that without Black Where Scary. There's I just had
an interview for another position, like just like a job
at this one spot and they knew me, this arts organization,

(04:40):
and they knew my podcast. I was the guy interviewing
was like, I know you, I know Black Women Are Scary,
and I was like wow, So like it did it
taught me a lot about that, you know, just like
doing work, doing leading with joy, and and finding your tribe,
like finding your folks, and people still bring it up

(05:00):
even though I'm not doing it anymore. I mean I
just close it out in February, so it's relatively recent,
but still like that has taught me. It has taught
me something about doing something fully, doing it with joy,
doing it with a sense of generosity, because I really
wanted to like meet other people here, support their work,
uplift their work.

Speaker 3 (05:19):
I read so.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
Many dope things I learned about, like solar punk, which
was a subgenre.

Speaker 3 (05:24):
I didn't even know that. I got other.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
Audio work because of it. Like it really just kind
of dominoed out.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
So I'm super grateful that I did it.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
I'm I also learned about putting something down, Like once
it kind of got to be like I don't know
if I can do this and this and this. You know,
a friend of mine was like, can't you just say
that you did this? And you know, we got an
Ignite Award for Best Fiction Podcast in twenty twenty three,
so that was also huge. Uh, And yeah, she was like,

(05:54):
why can't you just say that you did it? And
you you know, you got an award and yay and
celebrate it. And I was like, you know what, You're right.
So there's something about also knowing when something is finished
and being like and that's okay, and celebrating that you
did it rather than being like, oh, I don't have
the capacity to do it anymore.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
Boohoohoong about it.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah, all of that I learned through this project through podcasts,
so I definitely intend to take that into my life.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
Actually, one of the things that have been great spaces
for me to kind of play with over not only
this podcast, but Victims and Villains. That's how praise when
it comes to live events has been just kind of
using a convention circuit. So if I could ever encourage you,

(06:42):
that would be a really good place to start things,
you know, big cons, small cons. I forced Billy to
get out well speaking, and we did leather Face and
Mental Health last year, which was really good. But yeah, yeah,
just kind of like digging in there. Obviously when you have,
like give the live experience you guys had, ours is

(07:05):
a little bit more laid back, where you guys have
like cool sound cues and like yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
Yeah, I'm telling I'm doing I'm toying with the idea
of doing like a campfire style thing. So I'm talking
to some people that have access to spaces like that
where it's just like, come, we're going to do uh,
We're gonna tell the story, have like a live sound
artist like doing that and just tell it around the
campfire and then just you know, talk and hang out

(07:32):
like it really is also an opportunity the mixer part
of it I missed from the Pandemic, that part where
we would get together and talk about the talk about
this story, talk about the author's work. But then also
just we had all these icebreaker games that were you know,
tied back into the episode and just meeting new people
and people being able to socialize with folks in a

(07:55):
way that made them feel safe, which I feel like
right now we really need those kinds of spaces.

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Yeah. Yeah, I I feel like I don't have anything
to add because I feel like that just it just
speaks truth and you know, having kind of learned that myself.
We've talked about this, and I think it's going to
be kind of like a recurring theme for the next
couple of episodes, just kind of where we as a
podcast where and also as an organization over the last

(08:25):
quarter of the year, stepping back and kind of like
fixating on personal things. But it also at the same
time allowed us to really kind of finding a new
way to support one another and kind of break away
from the creative space and kind of get to walk
through some of each other's shit again. Billy, I will

(08:46):
forever be grateful for you.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
Community is so important, and you know, people are having
a hard time either maintaining or building or finding community.
So I definitely want to be part of the solution.
I don't want to, you know, complain.

Speaker 5 (09:01):
I want to be part of that.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
As hard as an adult, you know, when you have
that built in functionality of like schools and like after
school programs, like it's really easy to like kind of
get there even sports, but man, finding finding people as
adults is like really hard. Like I found both of
these guys by chance. Yeah, but you.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
Were looking, you were looking, you were putting yourself out there,
and I think that that's step one. And then just
you know, we're lucky enough here to be facilitators. I mean,
we're standing here doing what we're doing because we could facilitate,
And I think that's you know, key, A lot of
people feel like they can't do that, and it's like, yeah,
let's build a space so folks can come out and
find that community.

Speaker 3 (09:45):
Because we're gonna need it that days to come.

Speaker 5 (09:53):
You notice Josh thanked Billy for being there.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
A person person.

Speaker 4 (10:02):
Did not thank you, Mark.

Speaker 5 (10:03):
I do notice that exactly.

Speaker 6 (10:05):
I Mark, I did say Mark, Mark, I was there
for you too, so it was just as pronounced as
it was for Billy.

Speaker 5 (10:17):
Yeah, I left the area that they live in about
a year and a half ago, so I wasn't able
to be as much of a help as Billy was
when he was dealing with all his junk.

Speaker 4 (10:31):
But it's good that you guys like figure that out,
you know, I've seen I don't know. I mean, it's
it's all on the internet, so take it with a
grain of salt. But I feel like I see a
lot of things on the internet about like men being
very lonely and not having any community or friends.

Speaker 5 (10:44):
So like men, men have a different way of communicating
a lot of times. And I saw I saw a
video I have to see if I can find it again.
But it was a bunch of friends. They were gaming
online and one of them, just ask if I was
going through something and came to you to talk to you,

(11:08):
would you be there for me? And they all started
making the most horrible comments back to him. And the
thing is is that with guys, it's we could say
the most absurd, obscene jokes back and forth to each other,
but you also know that that person's going to be
the first one there for you when you need them.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah. Yeah, it was really Like I said, it was
really humbling to kind of walk through and have feature
people reach out to me that I haven't heard from
them in probably like four or five years, to kind
of go through that, And I think that's kind of
one of those things that you know, going off of
what you're saying, we motoed the idea of community being

(11:53):
this kind of like anchor for all of us kind
of moving forward. Is I think you know future preach
me out, you know, not trying to like like really
deep into it or you know, get overly political, but
you know, yeah, these are these are scary times, and
I think now a day now more than ever, we

(12:13):
need communities that are gonna be like minded people that
are gonna walk through us, you know, and allow us
to walk with them. I think that's kind of one
of the biggest things that I learned with communities is
that it can't just be a one way street. It's
gotta be you know, going both ways. And and for men,
that's that's something that's really vital. That's something that's very important,

(12:38):
you know. I feel like there's like this like men
have like two different types of relationships to where it's
we have colleagues and then we have like friends, Like
we have people that like we actually like dig dig
the dirt in the trenches with and we're not afraid
to get dirty with.

Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
All right, well we're gonna dig into Yeah afterwards, we're
gonna take a quick commercial break. But Dusky Projects, Where
can people find you guys online in the meantime?

Speaker 4 (13:09):
Oh so I am. We are me and my all
my collaborators on Instagram at Dusky Projects.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
We're also on Blue.

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Sky just like tinkering around with these other platforms, So
Blue Sky and Spill at Dusky Projects. So every place
is at Dusky Projects.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
Awesome. Worry to provide the links for you guys in
the show notes below, But we are going to be
back in just a few minutes to talk about the
nineteen ninety two classic Andy Man.

Speaker 3 (13:38):
Yeah right back.

Speaker 7 (13:41):
If you were someone you know is listening to this
podcast right now and you're struggling with suicide, addiction, self harm,
or depression, we encourage you guys to please reach out.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
This is the heartbeat or why we do what we do.

Speaker 7 (13:55):
Suicide is currently the tenth leading cause of death in
the United States, and as of this recording, there are
one hundred and thirty two suicides that take place each
and every day on American soil, and when you scale
back internationally, there are eight hundred thousand successful suicides. That
is one death roughly every forty seconds. So if you

(14:16):
were someone you know was struggling, you guys can go
to Victims and Villains dot net forward slash hope that
resource is going to be right in the description wherever
you guys are crrently listening or streaming this, there you'll
find resources that include the National Suicide Lifeline, which is
one eight hundred two seven three eighty two fifty five.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
You can also text help to seven four seven four one.

Speaker 7 (14:39):
You us have a plethora of other resources, including churches,
getting connected with counselors. LGBT resources like the Trevor Project
and also a veteran hotline as well. Please if you
hear nothing else in the show, understand that you yes,
you listen.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
I mean this right now.

Speaker 7 (15:01):
Of value and worth, we get it. Suicide, depression, mental health.
These are hard topics and this stigma around them doesn't
make it any easier. But please consider the resources right
in the descriptions below wherever you guys are listening, because
once again, you have value and.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
You have worth, so please stay with us. Welcome back
to a biscusing a horror podcast, and this episode is
like way overdue. During our hiatus, the Academy royally snubbed

(15:40):
Tony Todd from the in memorial section and we had
not done anything yet, but we are doing. Like we
said last week, we're going to be doing the final
Destination series later in this year. So this is kind
of the one before we talk about Candy Man. I
am kind of curious, what is the first rule that
you guys ever saw Tony Todd in?

Speaker 5 (16:03):
It is either Candy Man or the Crow one or
the other. I I don't remember which one I saw first.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Mine was the crow and the Crow is such a
weird anomaly in like the Grand scheme of like his
like demography from around that time.

Speaker 8 (16:23):
Mine was candy Man on VHS, so.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
I be fancy.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
I don't remember which one I saw first.

Speaker 4 (16:34):
I don't remember if I saw the Crow or candy
Man first, but it had.

Speaker 9 (16:38):
To be yeah, yeah, but candy Man was probably his
most iconic role.

Speaker 10 (16:49):
Yeah it was, which, interestingly enough, Beings the candy Man
is based on one of the books of blood Shorts.

Speaker 5 (17:01):
It's interesting when you really dig into the background of
the movie that it's kind of a weird, twisted love story.

Speaker 4 (17:09):
Yes, oh my god, I was getting such like Bram
Stoker's Dracula from this when I and I honestly can
I just want to thank you so much for having
me on to talk about this film, because I have
not watched it since.

Speaker 3 (17:25):
Since I was a child, and.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
I it was like watching a whole new movie, like
I didn't what I remembered of it from that time
and what you know, where I was in life, like
this didn't even I was like, I don't remember any
of this. I don't remember this part, and it landed
so differently on me being a grown up and being
in the time that we're in now. To watch this

(17:48):
film that is this kind of strange, this twisted, problematic
love story of sorts. I forgot that this really started
starts with a lynch. Like there was just so many
things where I was like, whoa, this was what this
movie was about. And I also didn't remember that Philip
Glass did the music.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
He score the score on this.

Speaker 4 (18:12):
I was like, he's eating this film, Philip is bringing it.
How come people don't talk about the music from this movie, Like, yeah,
there was a lot going on.

Speaker 1 (18:22):
So I think even outside of just the music for
this movie, one of the things that I kind of
I watched this. I love this movie. This is probably
one of my top five favorite slashers. And I watched
this movie at least once a year, and oftentimes I
will do this and the DaCosta remake or sequel. Yeah

(18:45):
you know, you know. But one of the things that
I think that is just that hit me on this
rewatch is like, there's so many similarities between candy Man
and Krueger that I think it kind of gets uh.

(19:06):
I feel like candy Man often kind of gets left
out of the conversation and Slasher because it came outside
of that general slasher boom of the eighties I.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
See a little bit of the pretty Krueger influence in
the way he gained his kind of power, so to speak. Yeah,
see more relevance to bram Stoker's Dracula and the actual
story itself.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
So I think it's I think it's interesting because I
I I will say for both, I think that there's
this element of bram Stoker's Dracula, especially in this first one,
this this first one by Bernard Rose. And I'll probably,
I'll probably we didn't, we didn't make a requirement.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
But for the nataka, the second one, you know, there's
the second one.

Speaker 5 (19:58):
The third one is he watched farewell, Farewell to the flesh.
I really like. Actually the third one is not very good.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
No Day of the Dead, so day Farewell to the
to the flesh. The second one is a it's a
it's a solid remake or sorry, it's a solid follow up.
It's it's a it's not a Obviously, it kind of
somewhat rehashes a little bit of this story. But Day

(20:30):
of the Dead, and Mark correct me if I'm wrong.
In this analysis, Day of the Dead feels like they
took the original film kind of changed a few round
a few details and We're like, you know, what would
be great if we if we remade this but with
a playmate, a playboy playmate.

Speaker 5 (20:58):
Farewell to the Flesh is like supposed to be like
a great great granddaughter or something like that, and the
main character and Day of the Dead is supposed to
be another relative, yeah as well. So they yeah, they
deal with the relatives of Daniel Roboti and his relationship.

(21:22):
They got him killed.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
But going back, like so we just set out to
cover this first one. I watched the Jordan Peelenia the
Costa one as well, because it's a perfect trilogy and
it's a perfect duology. But I also think it a
lot of the stuff that they talk about here. And
that's the reason why I bring up Freddy Krueger, because

(21:46):
if you've seen that movie, the difference is is that
every generation kind of has this candy Man, so to say,
like Cabrini has kind of kept this boogeyman story alive
past Daniel robinside where it is. There are five other

(22:07):
ones in that and I can't remember the name of it,
but you kind of see the transformation of the fifth
one during the duration of that film. It's kind of
that slow burnt understory.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I had I and honest rewatching
this first one had me thinking differently about the second
one because I remember like, oh, this is a sequel,
but I hadn't seen the first one in so long.
So when I went to see Nita costas Cannon, man, it,
you know, it was like a new film, and I
recognize the people that they had brought back. I understood

(22:39):
that he was a son, he was a baby and
all that, but I had like, had these dim memories,
and so when I watched it now, I was like, God,
you do need to watch these two things together, because
they are in conversation, I was really you know you
you were talking about Tony Todd bean snubbed, and in general,
I feel like this film is sort of left out
of Cannon, Like people don't talk about it as much
as they should. And I was like this, this music

(23:00):
is amazing, the cinematography is beautiful, and it hits a
lot of nerves, like the fact that it came out
in nineteen ninety two and it is so on the
nose about racism in a way where I'm like, I
can't even.

Speaker 3 (23:13):
Believe this movie got produced.

Speaker 4 (23:15):
Like the whole idea of systemic racism and urban decay
as a gothic background for a as horror in and
of itself, Like some of the horror is just like
we're just going to show you the projects, We're just
gonna be honest about gentrification. But some of it is
just that and like and it's somehow beautiful, but you're

(23:37):
also like, damn, y'all, y'all haven't in any punches.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Which is also interesting to take into consideration because Mark
brought this up earlier. This this movie is loosely based
off of a Clive Barker short story called Forgotten Right,
and that definitely it's it's weird because when you look
at that inspiration versus like what we actually get and
Candy Man, they're very loose, so it's like you kind

(24:03):
of do have that like Boogeyman like Helen type of
like love interests that that archetype kind of wove throughout here.
But it's like set in like the seventeen hundreds in
like Britain, and they updated it when they were like
making it, so it's like it's kind of crazy to
see like the different changes that they made. But I

(24:24):
think it it is. I don't know if you guys
feel the same way. But like, for me, like I
think that this film unfairly kind of gets like left
out of the conversation and like, yeah, the Slasher conversation,
Yeah it does.

Speaker 5 (24:41):
And I think part of it is to do with
when you think Slasher, it's like uh, Jason constantly killing
the teenagers or Freddy. Yeah, often on the whole movie.
This is more story driven. There's a lot less slashing,
so to speak. And I believe this was Clive Barker's

(25:07):
second horror icon he created mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
And but it's like it's like fifth or sixth movie.

Speaker 5 (25:16):
Yes, yeah, how many other horror uh producers and directors
can say that they have multiple icons in their creation.

Speaker 3 (25:27):
Oh no, client is prolific. Yeah, yeah, Client is prolific.
You know.

Speaker 4 (25:34):
It's just like shout out to Clive, and like it
does feel very and because it is his creation, it
does feel very different from a West Craven film, from
these other Juggernaut, like these legacy horror makers that we're
that we that we know. But I mean I also
think if I can, like I feel like it gets
left out of the cannon because of what it's tackling,

(25:55):
which just makes everyone really uncomfortable, Like if there's a
lot of moments where you're like, I don't know if
they're you know, like this is a super conscious film
or this is just like really racist right now, or
both or neither. Like I just I love that they
don't really shy away from how uncomfortable this is probably
going to make you. And I will say something and
just kind of going back to Krueger and and Mike

(26:18):
Myers and you know, I love these guys. But you
were saying how it's very much about killing the teenagers,
and I would say, like, yes. One thing that's also
deep that's different is that Helen is a grown woman.
These are grown people that die. So this is kind
of like a very adult horror movie because everybody's grown.

(26:41):
We're not talking about horny teenagers on the cusp of
anything like that's not what's happening. People are like academics
well into their career.

Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, it's also kind of interesting to consider too. This
is the last thing I will say for a little
bit that I'm a lot billy talk. He's wanting to
talk for a while. Yeah, it's interesting because this movie
feels almost like it is like ahead of its time
because it's it doesn't quite fit into the slasher boom
of the eighties, whereas going back to Mark, it is

(27:13):
very much teenagers, sex, booze killings, like those were like
the four things that kind of just made up those formulas.
This one is like actually its depth, it is it
has a social commentary, it is hitting on all of
these things. It's cast as adults. But then you switch
back to it sits right outside of that slasher revival

(27:37):
of the nineties we screen, so it kind of feels
like it almost doesn't really have a place because it's
not quite a slasher film. It's very Mark said, it's
very story driven, but it's also and we see it
kind of open up when Helen's husband is kind of
giving his lecture when we first meet him, like he's
talking about modern folklore, and that's a exactly what we're

(28:00):
witnessing through here. So it is that modern storytelling, but
it's the equivalent of the folklore billy.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah no, And I'm going back to what you were
saying earlier about it breaking down racism and everything. It's
also got to where it's breaking down how the easiest
way to say it. They both have the same building,
but just the way it's painted is how the cost
has changed. You've got the project on one side where

(28:28):
the other building they charged a lot more, wanted more money.

Speaker 8 (28:32):
And they brought it up in the movie.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
So the fact that it tackled that also on top
of the racism and everything was just like you said before,
it's time. A lot of people don't want to see that,
even though in the fact I looked it up in
a letterbox and I think it's like three point eight
or three as one of the movies out there, which
is ridiculous.

Speaker 8 (28:52):
I thought it would be higher than that.

Speaker 5 (28:56):
Oh, this came out a little while after the Rodney
King incident. That was in ninety one, early ninety one, Yeah,
which is I think part of why they made some
of the adjustments to tell the story the way they
did in the story compared to the original short. But

(29:17):
something else they don't really talk about is the fact
that Tony Todd is and I may just be having
a bad memory right now, but Tony Todd's one of
the only minority horror icons I can think.

Speaker 1 (29:34):
Of, the only other one that I would put in
that conversation, and he's a one off character would be
the main actor from Night of the Living Dad. That
would be the only other one that I can think of.

Speaker 5 (29:49):
Yeah, but he wasn't a he was, Yeah, he wasn't.
He wasn't icons Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
It wasn't the antagonist. Like that's the thing that's like,
so Q see is like is the fact that this
isn't the good guy and we had to have all
these complicated feelings about that, right, but he is in
fact the boogeyman.

Speaker 8 (30:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (30:13):
Yeah, And when you look up like the candy Man information,
he's actually listed as a boogeyman as what he actually is,
which I thought was kind of cool, but it's and
when you really get into it, is he really the
bad guy? Is he really the villain?

Speaker 4 (30:33):
He's so many questions, so many questions I had about
that because I didn't remember the monologue that he had,
which by the way, are written gorgeously, And so he's
sitting here speaking poetically with his wonderful voice, right, and
just the fact that every time he sees her, he's like,
believe in me, be my victim. So it's like, also

(30:53):
he needs consent.

Speaker 3 (30:55):
And he needs her to believe.

Speaker 4 (30:57):
Like there's this whole thing about loving being rumor, and
so there's this whole commentary on like belief and rumor
and if you believe in something, that's what makes it real.
Like we could all just stop believing a candyman and
he would disappear. Like there's something about that that was
really evocative. I you don't, I don't remember that. So

(31:20):
much of this was edited in a way where you're
not sure if he's real or just imagined by Helen.
And she's having she's in fact the killer, that is
what everyone thinks. And then and this one really blew me,
that mural of the lynching. I had so many questions,
like one who painted the mural? Why is there lynching?

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Like randomly like hidden away?

Speaker 4 (31:47):
What is going on here? But then also when she
sees herself in it and he's like it was always you, Helen,
I wondered, like, is she supposed to be the descendant
of this woman like a La Bramstoke is Dracula Mina?
Or is it just that he's saying that this woman
that he was in a relationship with is the is

(32:09):
sold him out because she's at the lynching. So is
it that is this like a tale of justice?

Speaker 3 (32:17):
Is that what he means by it was always you, Helen.

Speaker 4 (32:19):
Like this whole thing like this I missed when I
was a kid, and I was like, I don't it's
so cryptic, you don't know.

Speaker 3 (32:26):
There's just so many things you just don't know. They
don't tell you in the movie.

Speaker 5 (32:29):
Yeah, it's kind of implied that Helen is like the
reincarnation of the woman. It's not like definitively stated, but
it's kind of implied. And that kind of was the
basis of the relationship in Dracula too, was that she
was kind of the reincarnation of his.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
Wife, right, And these came out not too far away
from each other, right, like like the Dracula.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Right, Yeah, I think it came out the same mirror.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
Yeah, yeah, so this is like in the air. But
also Helen is in that mural of the or that
woman is in the mural of the lynching, and you
do wonder about her.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
So I think this is kind of what what I
think about it is that when you look at that
that realization, like at the end where she's like, oh uh,
I this this looks like me, and you know, he
was like it was always you, Helen. It kind of
like to me kind of like Red like the ending
of Kubrick Shining, where uh when you kind of get

(33:38):
that close up of the Golden Ball and you just
kind of see Jack has always kind of been there.
So it's kind of like this, like you know, the
Jack and the Overlook kind of have this like symbiotic relationship,
and it kind of almost kind of seems like it's
it's that that's what kind of hype of relationship that
they have. It doesn't matter, like you know what, who

(34:00):
are what it's going to be like the two of them,
Daniel and Helen Wollways find each other in the end.
But it's also worth mentioning that Bernadette also very briefly,
I believe sees Candy Man. I think she's the only
other one outside of the Kambrini Green but it would
make sense if she's all since she was also the
one working on the project with Helen.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
You think she sees she sees him.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I think I think she saw them.

Speaker 3 (34:28):
I see. I love that about the movie because.

Speaker 4 (34:30):
I'm now I'm watching it, I'm like, I don't know
if he's real or Helen is the killer, Like I
like at the end of it, I was like she
did this even happen? But then she kills her husband
and she's dead by then, so well, there's just so

(34:52):
many like mystical, magical things that happened.

Speaker 5 (34:56):
That was one of the things that got me is
the way he kills is just sheer brute force with
that hook, and no for in six team would have
confused that kind of damage with a butcher knife, and
that a little bity, little white woman with a butcher

(35:18):
knife could have done that much damage. Anyway, That's the
only thing that really got me. But the idea of
Candy Man being the way he is. I never took
him as the villain of the movie. I could, but
there there was a weird thing. This is one of

(35:38):
those little, weird, little worthless pieces of knowledge that I
have that are awesome. But Tony Todd had put in
his contract then he got so much money.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Per beasting one thousand dollars.

Speaker 5 (35:53):
Yeah, and he walked away. Was it like a thirty
two thousand dollars check or something?

Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, because he had he had like down his throat
he added in his mouth. I mean, like when you
talk about like that's that's the reason why I think
that like him getting snubbed at like this year's Oscars
kind of feels like salt in the wound.

Speaker 5 (36:12):
He was so underrated as an actor.

Speaker 4 (36:16):
Yeah, yeah, no, and his performance in this like he's
writing such a fine line, Like he's this gothic figure,
he's this mythical thing.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
He's also a murderer.

Speaker 4 (36:26):
There's also just the reality that he's like this big
black man, this blig black man, and this like pimp
coat and.

Speaker 5 (36:36):
Just like, I mean, he's got so much influence that
the leader that one gang was pretending to be him,
so to speak, find of. But I always, I always
really liked when they really first show all of him
in the parking lot in the in the parking garage,
where he's just standing there with his hands behind his back,

(36:58):
looking straight up, which is such a cool scene.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
So there's there's there's two things that I want to
draw in. One of them is a quote from the
twenty twenty one sequel Clemen. Domingo's characters is talking to
Anthony McCoy specifically about candy Man. He's kind of saying
so he says, quote a story like his pain, like
that it lasts forever, that is candy Man, And he

(37:25):
kind of talks about he goes on and he says,
you know, talks about how like each generation in Cabrini
has kind of had their own one, you know, for
his character in this one, it was it was Sherman,
which opens up the film. He says, they're all real.
It's it's how we deal with the fact of what
has happened and what is still happening. And I think

(37:45):
that you see that reflect it back into the scene
with Jake and the bathroom and the Overlords that Mark
was just referring to, because when the leader of the
Overlords actually enters into this base, he says, you know, hey,
I hear you're looking for candy man, bitch. Well you
found it, Like you see that theme kind of you know, uh,

(38:09):
permeate it throughout the course of not only this film,
but it's two far less superior sequels.

Speaker 5 (38:17):
Sorry, Mark, and I like Farewell to the Flesh.

Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yeah, but in our in our group chat, you said
you liked Farewell more than the original one.

Speaker 5 (38:28):
Which is fine, Yeah, it was more than it was different.

Speaker 4 (38:32):
I gotta I gotta check it out.

Speaker 5 (38:33):
Then it was it was more of a slasher than
the original one was.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
But I think I think it goes to like I
think it speaks volumes to like when we have injustices
in the world, right like you, oftentimes we turn to
things like folklore or storytelling or you know, things where
we can control the narrative, where we can kind of
control what we want it to be. And I feel
like that's part of the reason that you have so

(39:03):
many different takes where we're seeing like, yes, this is
the one that this one kind of kicking it off
is Daniel Robinside, this is Tony Todd, this is the icon,
this is the legend starting in eighteen nineties, but every
generation in Cabrina Green is kind of known their own

(39:25):
version of Candy Man. I feel like the one of
the reasons that this film works so well is because
there are so many different variations of this archetype that
exist in our own world, and so we turn to
things like movies, film, books, podcasts, content creation, et cetera
community in order to kind of deal or work our

(39:48):
way through them, or work our way through how we're
feeling with them. And I think that the fact that
this film opens up kind of where we meet some
of our original characters of having common stations around folklore
and specifically modern folklore I think speaks volumes to kind
of back up these facts.

Speaker 3 (40:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
Yeah, and the and the the way that we need
modern folk like these are the stories that we tell ourselves.
We need a boogeyman, we need these things.

Speaker 3 (40:16):
This is a human.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
Practice and it's very much a part of being human
that you have to make up these boogeymans to process
any of it anything. We somehow always do that. You know,
if it's not a boogeyman, then it's a witch in
the house in the corner or something like. It's always
it's going to be something like that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
And the fact that folklore is usually built off at
least the grain of true story.

Speaker 8 (40:43):
Right, like in this one, I think I heard it.
You may correct me if I'm wrong, but they.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Said that where the projects were built was where he
was lynched, was Yeah. So the fact that they used
that to build off of it to build Candyvan just
shows you that even the reign of truth can break
into a huge folklore.

Speaker 4 (41:03):
Well.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
I think the story about Daniel Robotie that we we
kind of hear, right, like he was this famous painter
and he fell in love with a white woman, especially
during these times inter racial relationships would be super frowned upon.
Yeah all right, well yeah so illegal. Yeah, so you know,

(41:27):
it kind of makes sense. I think, you know, you
know how much of that story is I would think
a lot of this story is true. You know, if
we're talking about Folkalore having any inclination of truth, I
would probably say like ninety percent of this is true,
if not more. Kind of given the context and just
how depraved we were in those times.

Speaker 4 (41:50):
And I want to give uplift, like the choices made
in the film to even tell that story. You know,
Helen is going around kind giving like very peak like
Karen energy honestly at the beginning of this like just
kind of like walking into people's communities and taking pictures
of their homes and I'm just like, girl, what are
you doing? Like so she's doing all of that, but

(42:14):
it's not until she's sitting down in it's very like
they did a good job of also segregating the film.
Right when you're in candy Manland, that's when you see
the most black ben brown people, Like, that's when you
see that, and then like when you're not it's just
her one friend, and then you're in these like academic
spaces that are very like super I feel like they've
made them super wishwash. Like even the way people were talking,

(42:36):
and like that scene when they're at dinner, it felt so.

Speaker 3 (42:40):
Like we're going to be like extra bougie, like.

Speaker 4 (42:42):
We're going to be like so like stereotypical peep academics
talking like a musing over the commoners or the you know,
the anthropologists going in to talk about the locals, you know.
But the story of the lynching isn't given to her
until that moment, until she's in that space surrounded by

(43:04):
all this fine dining, this guy who's competing with her,
and that's there's like this undertone here also of like
misogyny that's happening, like her husband's cheating on her, but
it's like kind of on the side. I really liked
that it wasn't central, and it wasn't even like an
overt thing for so there's like these little signs. And
then this dinner where he doesn't really stand up for her.

(43:27):
This guy's talking down to her and he was like,
how are you going to beat me at dunning story?
I don't even know what he was competing with her way,
but he goes into this story and he tells it
to her, this story of this lynching, and he makes
there's this issue. There's this comment on class here, like
this was a black man that went to school that

(43:48):
did all things. He said, he was in polite society,
and he was paid to do this portrait where he
met this woman before they started this relationship, right, So,
and that that journey of your impolite study. You're doing this,
you're paid to do this thing, you start a relationship,
and now we're gonna treat you like this though, because

(44:09):
you cross this line and that that's kind of reiterated
in when like Helen is talking about it's the same building,
only they charge me more because we don't have this
rewere like she's there's also this thing about class that's
coming in.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
Well, it's something interesting. If you listen to Tony Todd talk
in the movie, it's very proper, very clean, very well enunciated.
There's no slang or anything like that in the way
he talks, so it was made very poetic.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, and even in the way that he dresses too.
You know where we see other kind of slasher icons
kind of you know, they look it look like they
get down a dirty you know where at this time,
like Daniel Robotide looks like he's like get ready for
a ball. He's just yeah, that kind has that like

(45:02):
little overcoat kind of ready to go.

Speaker 4 (45:05):
And then the little high neck like what was that
like a blouseiquard.

Speaker 1 (45:12):
Yeah, but also he drinks tea.

Speaker 5 (45:17):
I mean I drink tea.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
Religious Yeah, I'm just saying he's you know, he don't
look like he does shots. He looks like he drinks
out of teacups. Like he's very proper. He's very prim
and proper.

Speaker 5 (45:29):
But it also goes back to the character where Freddy
and Jason and leather Face are real villains. Michael Myers
was psychopath, just completely unhinged. He was a victim from
the very beginning, and it's he's just all around a

(45:52):
different monster, so to speak, in the genre because of it,
he's not that same, that same evil being. He's a
victim that's back from engines.

Speaker 7 (46:07):
How would you guys like to help us get mental
health resources into schools, conventions, and other events. Well, now
you can simply go to Patreon dot com Ford sage
victims and villains For as.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Little as one dollar a month. You guys can help
us get mental.

Speaker 7 (46:23):
Health resources into current and upcoming generations, educate and break
down stigma surrounding mental health, suicide and depression, and to
get exclusive content that you.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Can't get anywhere else. And you guys can tell us
which Nicholas Cage movie you want us to cover and
we'll do it. All it takes to get started is
to go to patreon.

Speaker 7 (46:46):
Dot com Forward Sage Victims and Villains, or simply click
the link in the episode description wherever you guys are
currently listening or streaming this episode, pick your tear and
get started today. Yes, it's that simple, so quickly selected
tier that you want and help us get hope into
the hands of the depressed and the suicidal today.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
We're just yeah, yeah, you don't know it.

Speaker 5 (47:17):
Yeah, And the best way to avoid him is to
keep his name out of.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
Your mouth, Yeah, don't. I know. People just keep doing
it and you're like, what.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Are you doing?

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Which is you know? I think it's interesting too to
like make note of that, because he I think this
is probably this and I will say probably John Kramer
the only two horror icons that have these very distinct
things about them that they are looking for justice and

(47:54):
there's almost kind of this like vigilanteism to them.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, And I think that's a lot here at present,
because I think I strongly agree with Mark. I've never
heard that take before. But the you know, is he
a really bad guy? And he's not, you know, because
he's a guy that kind of just ended up essentially
being the wrong place the wrong time. And you know,
one of the things that struck me last night as

(48:20):
I was rewatching this is that he you know, he says,
you know, be my victim, you know, prepared the congregation,
like he's kind of like almost kind of been reborn
in his death as like this almost like priestly figure yea,
which I think kind of doesn't get talked about nearly enough.
And that's another like really fascinating aspect of his character.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
Yeah, the question the conversation that's happening about faith and belief.
He does use church speak congregation my believers. You came
and it almost wavered, but then this happened. That is
why I had to come back, because you were like
messing with the belief system that we had going on
here and then so then I will kill you and
you will be like all this talk like you will

(49:05):
be a mortal, he tells her, and and he needs
her to consent, like that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (49:12):
It's like, you need to want to do this.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
I was just like this is wild, still wild.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
There's two things that that I'll bring up real quick
kind of in speaking is there have been theologian studies
that are done on the Antichrist. And one of the
first fascinating things that often gets talked about is in
the Bible, Jesus talks about you know, when I come back,

(49:41):
no one will know the hour of the time. And
so many people have pointed to almost every generation kind
of having a argued self proclaimed kind of Antichrist. You know,
we people have people did it with Hitler, people did
it with Stalin, and you know that list kind of

(50:01):
just goes on and on. And one of the things
that I think is fascinating is that there is a
part of in this movie where he kind of continues
on talking about that, but he says to Helen, you
know they will all abandon you. And there's another correlation
to another line that Jesus says in scripture, says, you

(50:23):
know they will hate you because of my namesake. And
so I think it's really fascinating that there is also
this line of you know, do you believe in me?
What if you do, then there are all these things
that are going to come with it, similarly to how
you enter into most religions.

Speaker 4 (50:40):
Yeah, and that it involves sacrifice, so there's also like
ritual here and fire, like it is a little biblical,
or at the very least, it's very it's actual like
magic magic, like we need to cast a spell, there
has to be a blood sacrifice and a fire and
a thing, all these all this like like you're worshiping

(51:03):
the old gods almost. It feels a little bit like that,
And especially because of the way he talks, which is
as Mark was pointing out, like it is distinct. It
doesn't sound it doesn't even sound current. Like you said,
he doesn't use slang, and it's like, yeah, it's not contemporary.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
The way he speaks. He's like, your death would be exquisite.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
I'm like, no one's using exquisite and okay, what homide?

Speaker 5 (51:26):
Okay, Well, there were there were a couple things talking
about that and watching watching again because it's been a
while since I had watched it. It reminded me of
a couple of more modern things I had seen recently,
like Boardwalk Empire. There's an episode with Chalky White. The

(51:47):
whole series takes place during the Prohibition, and they tell
him that the KKK was the one that killed one
of his people, and he goes into interrogate him with
his daddy, who happened to have been a carpenter. His
daddy's carpenter's tools, and he tells the story about his

(52:08):
dad was one of the best carpenters in town that
there was, and one of them, yeah, one of the
rich guys hired him to make these bookshelves with all
kinds of angels and scroll and woodwork, and another one
got jealous and proceeded to kill his daddy for it.
So that kind of the way he gets killed kind

(52:31):
of for some reason reminded me of that. And talking
about you have to be willing be my sacrifice, you're
going to be my victim and stuff reminded me of
an episode season one of Vikings. It's in the later
season where they're going firs. It's either an eight or
nine year festival, and part of the festival is sacrifices,

(52:55):
and one of the sacrifices is human sacrifices and they
have to be willing sacrifice to their gods. So for
some reason, watching it again and hearing you talk about
that reminded me of those two things.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
It's yeah, there's a recurring so oh sorry, I was
gonna say, it's also worth mentioning that, and I'll let
you go. You might have somebody to say what I
have to say. But it's also worth mentioning that in
the twenty twenty one sequel that it's no longer Daniel
Robinside that is kind of the central central figure in

(53:33):
the candymand Lord. It's actually it actually becomes Helen. And
it's also fascinating because I think that I think that
again speaks to society on how it's easier to kind
of accept, you know, a centralized white person in those
types of figures than it is a bipod or you know,

(53:57):
anyone that may be classified as a minority.

Speaker 4 (54:01):
Yeah, I was I totally forgot what I was gonna
say now because you said that, and I was like, huh,
oh you see this No, no, no, to touch on
what Mark was saying. You see this this sacrifice coming in,
Like I just watched finish the recent season of Mayfair witches.
And that's also another thing where it's like it is,
once we're talking about the gold gods, you know, once

(54:23):
we start talking about like pre Christian anything, uh, blood
sacrifice is now on the table, and they also have
to you know, there's a point in there where it's like, yep,
it's gonna be about eating babies, and.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
It's like really, y'all.

Speaker 4 (54:38):
But I think that that's interesting that this film is
touching on that in a way that like the other
other films that were coming out at this time, did
not talk about that that aspect of worship that is
present in human history. And then yeah, it's what I
thought was really interesting about it being Helen, uh, and

(54:59):
Helen taking his place is simply that math of like.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
This is how a curse works.

Speaker 4 (55:06):
That candy Man in order to be free, in order
to die, someone has to take his place, and this
that math, and like whenever you see anything that is cursed,
something has to take its place, so like Helen then
becomes the thing that you summon, which I thought was
a really interesting moment. I don't know if any of
you've seen this one film called Candisha.

Speaker 3 (55:28):
Yeah, yeah, right, there's a.

Speaker 4 (55:31):
Lot it's interesting, like it would be. It's interesting to
watch Candy Man and Candisha next to each other, because
this is another one where Candysha starts off as as
a victim as well, and she's a vengeance demon, like
she is summoned because this woman escapes an attempted sexual
assault and summons her to like get revenge. So in

(55:53):
the beginning and when it starts, you're like, yeah, go
get that guy. He's terrible, and then it kind of
she once she is unleashed, though, she just kills any dude,
like no matter what. I wrote this whole piece about
whether or not Candysha might be like a feminist slasher,
but anyhow, but there was something about that too, where
it's like, in order for Candysha to be free, in

(56:15):
order to stop her terror, you have to take somebody
has to take her place, like this idea of justice revenge, Like.

Speaker 3 (56:23):
How do we close it? How can we restore it?

Speaker 4 (56:26):
If we don't we don't have that conversation that someone
just takes their place.

Speaker 1 (56:30):
I don't think it ever properly closes, you know. I
don't want to keep coming back to the twenty one film,
but so much.

Speaker 5 (56:42):
I watched the twenty one once.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Okay, so the last thing I'll say is like this,
you know, going off that is William Burt Coleman. Dimingo's
character is, like says in the climax, like candy Man
is kind of this idea that needs to live on it.
It's you know, it's this idea and really want to
say how it ends. But I don't know if Billy
or any of the other listeners have actually seen it,

(57:07):
but it has that idea that you're talking about juxta
post and I don't want to get too much into it,
but it is. It's and I think we see that
with history all the time, where yeah, you won't actually
learn from it. You know. Curses are one of those
things that I think that you know, whether you believe
in them or not, are things that you learn, you know,

(57:30):
take bad luck, you know it, cosmic thing whatever. But
chances are those shitty days that you're having your learning
from them, you're growing from them.

Speaker 3 (57:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (57:41):
Yeah, I think my biggest issue with the with the
twenty twenty one one was that the only time they
showed Tony Todd was a CGI and one two minute scene.
I wanted to Todd. So that's that's one character, one

(58:03):
poor icon. I don't want to see be remade. I
don't think anybody else could play that role like he did.
Anybody else would have the voice or the look.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
I will say this to Billy, I think you kind
of missed the the the theme of why Tony Todd
was not candy Man for that movie.

Speaker 5 (58:25):
Oh no, no, it's not that I didn't that I
missed the theme. It's that it's far It's his most
known role. It's what he is known for and to have.
If they ever decided to do a remake or something,

(58:48):
to me, it would almost be like when they tried
to do Redo the Crow it flopped horribly, because that
was Brandon Lee's most iconic role.

Speaker 1 (58:58):
That was awesome, a cursed production.

Speaker 4 (59:01):
Billy so well again, going few things.

Speaker 2 (59:06):
One Mark that's one of his most known roles. The
other one is his death and final destination. Depending on
what you got brought into is which one does the role?

Speaker 8 (59:15):
You know?

Speaker 5 (59:16):
I know him from both of them as well as
his roles and Hatchet had quite a few other movies,
and he's always going to be Daniel Robata, gotcha.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
But I want to go back to a couple of
things that everybody said so far where Josh was talking
about how they said that, I don't know the exact wording,
but they were going to forsake it, Helen not follow her.

Speaker 8 (59:41):
Everything was going to be against her.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
And then everybody else saying, well, the church has to
be passed on the funeral scene actually did that where
before every before everybody from the the easiest way for
me to say, because I can't remember the everybody's characters names,
but everybody from the projects came up to warn her
before everybody showed up. They were just what three people there,

(01:00:07):
and they were people to really care for her.

Speaker 4 (01:00:10):
It seems yes, yes, herded.

Speaker 8 (01:00:15):
They were.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Everybody else walked up and started giving her the respect
and everything, and the torch was passed when they dropped
the hook in the in the.

Speaker 4 (01:00:23):
Great Yeah, that's a good point because I and there
was that little kid too who always made that like.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
I honestly think going back to something that said earlier
in the podcast was I think he actually could see
Candy Man. He's one of the few people that I
do believe that because he described him to a t.

Speaker 1 (01:00:45):
It's established that like if you believe in Candy Man,
like if you believe in the Lord then like and
also too, like kids are like way more because you know,
you think about things like the you know, set a
clause that their bunny things like too, fairy things like that, like,
and that's kind of like the same idea, whereas like,

(01:01:06):
you know, maybe to an extent, like parents are like
telling kids the story of Candy Man because in some way,
shape or form, it's protecting them, you know, or it's
something that we tell kids that you know, helps them
keep them alive, or helps keep them safe, or you know,
whatever you want to sell. But I think too, I

(01:01:29):
think there are certainly some people that definitely believe in
Candy Man or maybe have also had, you know, run
ins with Candy Man.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Yeah, I mean the fact that the other thing is
like in the nineties, a lot of movies started doing
more urban legends.

Speaker 8 (01:01:45):
For instance, Urban Legends, it was one of the movies
that was out.

Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
But I mean that the new thing from the eighties
slashers to moving over to urban legends for the nineties
was huge.

Speaker 3 (01:01:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
Yeah, there was the kid that chows her where the
bathroom was that the assault took place. Jacob, Yeah, the
story the story that he tells about the down syndrome
kid going to his mom set him across the street

(01:02:21):
to use the bathroom and he gets his junk ripped off.
When they find him, he's standing there holding his crotch
and his junks in the toilet. So that's actually based
on a story that Clive Barker's grandmother told him to
be leary of strangers.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
That's the credible. Honestly, I didn't know that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
Which is the point of a fairy tale, right, Like
the fairy tales are meant to do these things, and
there is a kind of macab sort of fairy tale
esque vibe that I believed that we have that not
just because of the way it shot, but also because
of Philip Glass, Like choosing Philip Glass to do the
music for your film. Come on, you you this is intentional,

(01:03:04):
Like you're trying to create a vibe.

Speaker 5 (01:03:06):
Yeah, we were. We were actually, I think last night
messaging the music of the of the movie. Yeah, it's
And I think that maybe part of why when people
talk about slashers, the candy Man doesn't come up in
that category a lot is because it's more it's portrayed
more fairy tale than hacking.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Slash it's or yeah, yeah, it's like there's a there's
a there is this elegance to his theme, Like it
feels like an extension of who he is as a character,
his backstory, his entire being. Kind of feels like philed
Glass just kind of took the story and then like
said it to music, Like that's exactly how it should feel.

(01:03:50):
I feel like so oftentimes the horror icons with maybe
with the exception of Jason, I think often times, you know,
you take there, you just kind of sound, oh, this
sounds cool, We're gonna pair with this. It's got that
creepy nitness to it. Whereas the filled Glass score here
actually feels like an extension of TODs performance.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
Yes, I agree.

Speaker 7 (01:04:14):
I agree.

Speaker 4 (01:04:14):
They really go hand in hand and you really can
hear that when he speaks, oh you know, when the
music is half is scoring his monologues, it feels like one,
like one sonic piece.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
They go together.

Speaker 4 (01:04:29):
It's really supporting his vocal performance. Uh and yeah, so
it gives a whole it's a different vibe. It's a
and I mean, you know you have Wes Craven did
all the music for his donated all the music for
his own, well, you.

Speaker 3 (01:04:47):
Donor I'm taking a Jack Overner. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:49):
So like and then that music really stands out. I
mean John Carpenter that those scores for Halloween is also
an extension of Mike my like, so it's it's great
in horror when you when people do that, when they
actually really pay attend to the music in that way,
and it's not just for like jump scares, but it
is also like, no, I'm trying to give you another
added layer to this monster that I've created.

Speaker 5 (01:05:14):
Yeah, it felt like part of the movie and part
of the character as opposed to just a background score.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
Yeah, which is something that like a few years ago,
shut her to a documentary called Leap of Faith, and
it's William Freakin I think it's the last movie ever did.
But he's like talking about like all of the aspects
from pre production to post production to the world premiere
to the legacy all about the Exorcist, and he talks
about finding the right score for that and they brought

(01:05:45):
in like four or five different composers to set music
to it, and he could never find something that just
felt like a captured the moment. And he randomly like
came across this like this track called Tubular Bells, which

(01:06:06):
is if you if you know The Exorcist, you know
that's the theme song I kind of is, and like
just paid to have like the rights use it. So
like he just kind of took like different pieces of
like music and like just paid for the rights to
use him in the film. But it's very rare that
you come across a movie. I think the you know,

(01:06:29):
modernly speaking, I think I brought up kind of Saw earlier,
but that dada da da da da. I think it
feels like an extension of his character. It's probably one
of the only like modern pieces that we have because
every film kind of has that ending monologue from John
Kramer or Amanda or you know whoever is the Jigsaw

(01:06:54):
killer for that movie.

Speaker 5 (01:06:58):
And the only other one music wise I could think of,
like that would be Halloween.

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
Yeah, with the Halloween and if I can put it
out there, Jaws, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Yeah, that means a shark is in the water.

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
Like that's what that means. Now if you hear that,
that's what that means. And so I think it's really
wonderful when where there are some filmmakers who do pay
that much attention to the to the music, and they're like,
I want this sound to be synonymous with this character.
So if I hear it, dn no no no no
no no, I know I already know what was happening
like that, that's just what it needs, that's just what

(01:07:37):
it means. And I feel like candy Man, Like the
minute I start hearing this organ, I was like, how
come I don't remember this? How come people aren't using
this organ sound to like reference this film or reference
a complicated antagonist, or like, you know, like how did
that not be? How did that not become the thing?
Because it's so distinct.

Speaker 5 (01:07:58):
Well, it's interesting you say that that's what Christopher Nolan
used in the Interstellar was a church pipe organ for
that song that everybody knows that was a Yeah, that
was done on a pipe organ and like a cathedral
over in Europe.

Speaker 1 (01:08:16):
I am also curious too, that kind of switching gears,
going back to like the folklore aspect of this movie. Uh.
You know, obviously when you watch a movie for enjoyment,
you're going to watch it differently than when you watch
a podcast, you know, and you're yeah, kind of thinking
more critically of it. So I'm seeing this movie several times,

(01:08:38):
and it's never dawned on me until watching it for
this podcast. Did anyone else kind of think it's weird
that he is this Cabrini green legend, but yet we
first kind of see him in the university parking lot.
I don't know. I just kind of thought that was
like a weird option. Is why.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
This is why I'm not entirely sure about like the
relationship between him and Helen, and like, is this Helen's
like fixation or something like does she manifests this because
and it's just her persona when she kills people, Like
there was this whole part of me that's like, what
if she's just a serial killer and this is her
persona when she's Like I was like, that's kind of
dope in its own right, But like, because I was

(01:09:21):
so struck by the fact that it has so much
of what happens happens during the daytime, Like they don't
make everything dark and at night, so it's such a
strong choice to have him show up in the middle
of the day in a totally well lit parking lot,
And because it's all connected to her, I didn't think
anything of him not being in Kabrina Green because he

(01:09:43):
was talking about being a ghost and all ethereal in
a rumor, and since it seems as though she he exists,
he came for her and he exists in her, possibly
in her imagination.

Speaker 3 (01:09:54):
I was like, well, he could be wherever she is.

Speaker 5 (01:09:58):
Well, yeah, but I don't know. He also said his
strength come from the people that believed in him, and
she thoroughly believed in him at that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Point, And the fact that there were murders before she
even got involved in the story, which makes me believe
that it wasn't just in her head at that point.

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
I just I still think it's kind of weird that,
like she wouldn't.

Speaker 5 (01:10:21):
Have had they never make it clear whether it was
Daniel Romati or one of the other people.

Speaker 1 (01:10:29):
Yeah, I because.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
Remember there was the gang leader running around calling himself
the candy man, using a hook to kill people and
a big long coat like that and everything.

Speaker 1 (01:10:40):
Yeah, I mean, I still again, I come back to
the idea of like the argument of like why didn't
he reveal himself to her, like earlier in the film,
when like they were first exploring Kabreingreen, Like there's that
scene where like she goes through the apartment to Ruthie
Jean's place, and like you're kind of like Bernadette just

(01:11:01):
kind of like left waiting chilling with like you know,
Raggedy Ann and the tub there and then like that
would have been like the perfect kind of thing, but
I think that there's like it would have also cheapened
it to an extent to where there is kind of
like this mystery about it. And it's kind of one
of those things that like, as the sequels have kind

(01:11:24):
of kept going for better for worse, they've kind of
like tried to explain it away. You know. For as
much as I love certain aspects of you know, two
three can three is horrible, it was horrible, and then
you know the DaCosta feel like kind of having this

(01:11:45):
like explaining these like fantastical elements rather than allowing the
audience kind of is something that I feel like they
kind of got away from. I like the idea of
there being like every generation has a candy Man, but
also at the same time, like like the mystery and
the lore that kind of like exists around Daniel Robata here,

(01:12:06):
I do.

Speaker 4 (01:12:07):
Too, because there's like real magic happening there.

Speaker 3 (01:12:10):
Like I'm like, is it her?

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
Is it this phantom thing is it? What is what's
happening like? And what it did to her? Like people
did think it was her. She was committed this whole
thing of like a woman who's lost her mind, and
we're going to not believe her, right, We're going to
dismiss everything that she's saying. She's hysterical. That scene, if
we can just for a moment uplift the scene where

(01:12:33):
she comes back to her apartment and tries to go
back to her life and the new girl, the new
younger version of her is there. That is the most
hilarious scene I've ever seen in a film, like in
a horror film.

Speaker 3 (01:12:46):
That scene made me laugh for a moment.

Speaker 4 (01:12:50):
It just became comedy because the new girlfriend was so
scared of her. She sees her and immediately starts crying
and like totally punks out. And then Helen suddenly leans
into being the crazy ex girlfriend or the crazy ex wife,
and she's all remember how she was like grabbing the
phone and she was like you want to call the police,

(01:13:10):
don't you go ahead call the police? Call?

Speaker 11 (01:13:14):
Like she starting to like bully her ex husband and
his new girlfriend, And I was like, this is hilarious,
Like her performance there of possibly just like Okay, fine,
I'll be this crazy person.

Speaker 3 (01:13:27):
Then oh no, I'm not.

Speaker 4 (01:13:29):
This is the thing that's happening. And then the moment
where she says like I can never go back, Like
she actually has a whole emotional arc in that scene
that's really deep for a horror film. Well, I mean,
I don't want to say it, because we have like
a lot of horror films now that are getting but
a horror film at that time wasn't trying to get
that deep. And she does a whole emotional journey in

(01:13:51):
that moment.

Speaker 1 (01:13:52):
And it has such a great payoff in those last
moments where like her husband, and rightfully so, because like
when it literally every interaction that we have, except for
the fact that when he makes dinner for her, she
like he is just he's an asshole like foremost like

(01:14:13):
just possibly like belittles her at every chance he gets.

Speaker 5 (01:14:17):
And so that actor plays those roles a lot too.

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
That is fine, But for the context of this, I
think that like when he like summons her at the end,
whether it's intentional unintentional in his grief, it's I love
that callback to this particular scene that you're talking about
because she says literally the last thing to him, like,
you know, what's the matter of, Trevor, are you scared
of something? Like it has such an immense payoff and

(01:14:45):
it really has no reason to but it just kind
of culminates in this like really emotionally satisfying thing where
you see this like especially secondary villain of the film
kind of get his comuppets.

Speaker 4 (01:15:00):
Yeah. Again, going back to her whole believe in me,
be my victim, you will be immortal. This idea that
like she's actually more powerful, like the idea that like
an idea is more powerful than being a person, And
in some ways Helen reaches this kind of liberation. Like
I do think that there is something about that that
needs to be in the film to understand why she

(01:15:23):
said yes, because she gets to like get her own revenge.
She seems far more empowered by the end of the
Biltment and when she started, and it's that's also interesting
just to see that journey of her like from a
you know, a curious grad student to you know, a

(01:15:44):
jilted ex wife to the thing that to the monster itself.

Speaker 5 (01:15:52):
She became her own research subject.

Speaker 4 (01:15:57):
Wow, Yeah, can we talk about that for a minute. Like,
what was it about doing a thesis in the nineties
that people acted like it was such a big deal, Like, Okay,
look I've done, I've made I've written a thesis before,
and like no one cared. It wasn't going to change
my life. Her and her and Bernadette are walking around
like that's going to get them tenure or something, and

(01:16:18):
I was like, girl, what why does everyone care so
much about your thesis?

Speaker 5 (01:16:22):
Like there going on? There was a time period when
going to college actually meant something instead of the day
where there's college graduates a diamond dozen in just about
any field you can think of. So going to college
had some sort of prestige to it, and part of
that was writing your papers and your thesis. And this

(01:16:46):
was kind of during that time period before everybody went
to college for everything.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
So that's fair, yeah, just slightly a product of its time.

Speaker 4 (01:16:59):
Yeah. I thought that was really interesting because I haven't
heard anybody talk about their thesis in this way that
where it felt like so much was writing on it
and so much possibility could come from publishing this thing
and you could like make it big. And I was like,
is that what it was like then? Because like I
didn't make it big, and no one said it was

(01:17:20):
even gonna happen like that, And I'm like, I never
even heard of that happening. So I was like, Wow,
was there a time when you could write a thesis
and make it big?

Speaker 5 (01:17:30):
Yeah? It was. It was all part of the It
still is part of the college experience. But with everyone
going to college now for anything you can think of,
it doesn't hold the weight that it did back then.

Speaker 2 (01:17:44):
Yeah, it like chat GBT now, yeah for them.

Speaker 5 (01:17:50):
So yeah, I saw a scary thing the other day
I heard. I can't remember where it was, but they said,
just remember your doctors coming out of school now wrote
their papers using jat GPT. Awesome, and now they're your doctors.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Uh yeah. Most times that I hear people talking about
their thesis, it's in like passing. So they'll be like, yeah,
you know you asked a question, I wrote my thesis
on this, or I know a guy that wrote thesis.
It's doesn't have the weight that it once did. And
that's because, you know, going back to what Mark said, like,
college doesn't mean shit nowadays.

Speaker 2 (01:18:28):
A lot of people, I mean even today with my
job and Mark can attest to this.

Speaker 8 (01:18:32):
Sometimes Google is our friends. We just google what we
need to know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:38):
It's mad.

Speaker 5 (01:18:42):
And it is kind of fun to be able to
make some of those people that have the piece of
paper that says they know how to do something look
kind of dumb from the people that actually know how
to do it.

Speaker 3 (01:18:53):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:18:56):
Well, gentlemen and ladies, I think this is going to
be it for us. On this episode of Abyscazing during
US next week, where you're gonna be jumping into the
Underworld series talking about everything from two thousand and three
up until Blood Wars in twenty sixteen. We're doing that
with our friend Zambes.

Speaker 4 (01:19:17):
Oh my gosh, I love that series. Yeah, I've watched
all of those.

Speaker 5 (01:19:23):
I'm trying to think if I've actually seen them all
or not.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
I need I see the last two. After Rise of
the Lichens, I was like, all right, we've no, Oh no,
that last one.

Speaker 4 (01:19:36):
Watch that last one. There's some moments. That whole series,
that franchise has some moments.

Speaker 1 (01:19:41):
I love the first two, the first two.

Speaker 5 (01:19:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:45):
So I actually got to like show it to like
my wife because my wife got into vampires a little
bit early, like later into life, and I was like,
have you ever seen this movie and she was like no,
and so we watched it one dead and she's like,
this was great.

Speaker 5 (01:20:02):
So yeah, forgot in the theater.

Speaker 1 (01:20:05):
So jealous of you? All right, Well that is going
to do it for us on this episode of the Biscus.
But where can people find you? One more time?

Speaker 4 (01:20:14):
You can find me on Instagram, Blue Sky and spill
at Dusky Projects. That's dusk Y Projects by links in
the show notes.

Speaker 1 (01:20:25):
But Mark, where can we find you?

Speaker 5 (01:20:27):
Hanging up with you? Still?

Speaker 1 (01:20:30):
That's right every Wednesday, six pm Eastern Standard Time, Billy,
Where can people find you?

Speaker 8 (01:20:38):
Everybody can find me at letterbox at Vehicle.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
You guys can find me. I'm also on letterbox at
Captain Nostalgia, and you guys can check out my other
podcast that's praise wrapping up and finishing up this season
is a Nicholas Cage podcast. If you guys are interested.
Wherever you guys get your podcasts from, check that out
in the Cage I Did, I Did. We're almost pushing
fifty episodes, so you know it's been a commitment. We're

(01:21:05):
wrapping up season two. Season three will come back in
the fall, but check it out wherever you guys get
your podcasts from as well as Victims and Villains, where
we Motto has previously been a guest. Before go to
Victims and Villains dot net, where you guys can find
all of this great stuff, including our mental health resource library.
So until next time, remember, the longer you gaze into

(01:21:27):
the Abyss, the more the abyss gazes back into you.

All Episodes

Candyman (1992) | Episode #144

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

24/7 News: The Latest

Dateline NBC

The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Candyman (1992) | Episode #144