May 25, 2024 • 52 mins
Alvin and German engage in a captivating conversation with Attorney Winsome Rhudd, class of '88. A self-employed attorney based in Brooklyn, NY, Winsome specializes in Family Law. She graduated from Albany Law School in 1992. As an avid world traveler, she has visited over 100 countries. A dedicated children and family advocate, Winsome pursued further education after seven years of practice, earning a Master's in Early Childhood from Brooklyn College to deepen her understanding of the root causes of her work. She also holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in French from Colgate University.
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The following podcast is being brought toyou by the Defile Life podcast Network.
Welcome to Aftergate, Powered by theDefile Life Network. Are you all Ready?
Aftergate? Is a podcast series highlightingColgate alumni of color in their professional
(00:22):
endeavors. Aftergate Are you all Ready? Aftergate? Is hosted by Alvin Glymph
aka al and Herman Dubois aka AJerry Already. We are doing Aftergate because
Colgate University has produced innovators who havechanged the world every day, Yet many
alumni of color and the mainstream Colgatecommunity are unaware of the amazing accomplishments of
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alums of color. Are you allready? Welcome? Welcome, Welcome,
This is Aftergate. This is yourboy. Alvin Glymph, co host of
this podcast, the podcast that focuseson amplifying documenting the journeys of alumni of
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color from COVID University and as always, I am joined by my co host,
miss the head of my du bois. What's the deal, Jerry?
How you doing? Bro? What'sgoing on? Brother? Al can't complain
or It's good to be back onthe after Gate set and exploring another story
(01:30):
of one of our great alumna ofcolor from Kogate. So you're looking forward
to, looking forward to to Wednesdayevening all day, all day, and
it's like it's always extra special whenit's someone that we had the opportunity to
spend some time with on campus.So getting to learn this story after Gate
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but also before Colgate, and inthis case, since we only overlap one
year, it's going to be interestingto hear how things were before we even
got there. But everything good inMiami an the updates, manorhouse, thing
going on your side. Miami isgood. Miami is good. Closing out
the school year, so down tothe last couple of weeks of school the
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semester hole MirOS is just finished.Another project completed, uh mural for Urban
Urban Aquaponics Lab to talking to kidsabout urban farming, so another little different
medium for us, but nonetheless inthe historic over town. UH So we've
got another another mural booked for fornext month, working with wounded warrior as
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well as working on a piece tributeto Harry Belafonte, who I just found
out was a Navy veteran, andand and and and actually there's a story
about how he avoided a major bombingand where he was based, like a
momb shortly after he had left.So there's a community center in Miami called
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the Bella Fatas the Colcy Center,which he was a big part of writing
Seed Money and starting and so it'sthe same location we completed the Kataji Brow
Jackson mural, and so we arenow in collaboration with Wounded Warrior doing a
mural tribute to Harry Belofonte. Yeah, we've been rolling with it. It's
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going well. Excited about the newschool year, some opportunities on the horizon
to continue to grow hope, muralsand expand our reach. Love to hear
it, Love to hear it,keeping it moving. Four momentum, that's
the word that keeping the momentum going. So keep it going, love to
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hear those updates, and as wewe're going to keep the momentum going in
tonight's show because we've had some fascinatingstories so far for the past eighty episodes.
As we are in season four,season corrects, Reckoni for those of
you who don't know, now youknow, now you know, And so
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episode eighty one, can I getyour permission to invite this week's guests into
the studio. My brother, asalways the congregation says Amen, Amen Colgate
AOC Aftergate listeners, I ask yourpermission, get your blessing to invite the
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one that only win some rud classof nineteen eighty eight. Welcome to Aftergate,
my sister. Thank you. Wealways like to set the context and
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let our listeners know, is it'ssomeone that we have experienced with or we
learning this person's history and journey liveas they are. But in this case,
we have had the pleasure, asI mentioned earlier, of being on
campus with you for one year,and I would love to say like you
was one of them sisters that definitelyshowed us the way you know, it
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was one of them. You werea mentor in many ways in the sense
of giving us a sense of thisis how you affirm your culture, this
is how you be a good studentand leave Kolgate better than you found it.
And so that's my memory of Winsom. Jerry, anything you want to
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add to what you remember Winsom sinceyou was there with me, Yeah,
yeah, I just remember wins beingpart of that sort of group of upper
class women we talked about this onthe last show that were in very much
influential sort of big system maternal typeof self proclaimed guiding lights for us.
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And you know, definitely there wasa maturity and there was a sense of
without knowing as a freshman, understandingof once I became a senior kind of
like why they were so focused andserious and and and why they did what
they did for us. Uh andin many ways trained us to be able
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to pass that on to those whofollowed. And so I've always appreciated that
and even though at the time theynot have realized its value. You know,
she falls into that same bucket offolks with the Carla Bedford and the
Holly said. It was just folksrespected and and really were just at that
big sist that was like, youknow, could call us out when when
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when we're acting the fool and neededthat extra you know, just hey,
hey, right, recognized recognized youknow, you represent you represent all of
us, and we represent each other. So I right. So I'm glad
I was able to do that.Thank you. It's good to know.
So give us a sense of whatyour life was like before Cogate. So
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you're a class of eighty eight,So you graduate high school then nineteen eighty
four, Yes, where are youfrom? Where I was home. Well,
I was born in Jamaica and Iit's funny enough, I was only
in at Cogate in the US forone year before I came to COVID.
Wow. So Colgate was very traumaticfor me because it was the first time
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I dealt with racism. So comingfrom a country where it was predominantly blacks,
it was different. It was thefirst time I experienced in racism.
So I came to Brooklyn and Iwas in high school for one year and
I Boys and Girls High School.Okay, right there off Atlantic Avenue.
Yes, it was predominant, butof course it was black and it was
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very supportive. So I thought thiswas America. And then I came to
Colgate and then I was It wasa rude awakeness. Yeah. So growing
up in Jamaica, my mother,my late mother, who had a saying,
do the best you can, inall the ways you can, for
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all the people you can, foras long as you can. Mm hmm
like that. And she did notwe didn't have much, but she always
helped. She said she had thissaying like, if you have one finger
banana, you share it and giveit to the neighbors. So I grew
up in that community time environment,and we always helped each other no matter
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how little we had, we shared. And then I came here and people
had a lot and would rather throwit away than give it to some to
others. So it's funny that yousaid I assisted you, because that's what
I learned. So the one yearat high school, I met a guidance
counselor, Ignace Griffith, who helpedme. He told me about Colgate and
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about other schools. He gave mefee waiver to apply because within the money,
and he really really assisted me.He passed away in February tenth of
this year. I kept in touchwith him for forty years wow. And
he was instrumental in assisted me.When my father passed away, he wrote
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me a letter. He was thefirst one at my mom's funeral HM and
he reinforced what I learned growing upthat one person can make a difference positive
different so and you have to bethere for each other, and you have
to be there for listing. Socoming to Colgate the summer program really has
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helped me, Like having like SarahIshmael, he's very good, and then
just having everyone there and then manand Marrabora was close to his wife,
has Amarrabora. I still keep intouch with her. Okay, so they
say she's in Atlanta, Now Imean I kept in touch with her.
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They moved to Ohio, they movedbolder and everywhere followed them, you know,
because I think once you may contact, you're supposed to. I believe
and keep in touch. So Ikept in touch with her all this time.
I spoke to her on Sunday,called her from other's day. Wow.
Yes, So it's very important forme to keep in touch. So
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the summer's program was very good.I would not have survived COVID without it.
So before you get into the summerprogram, give us a little bit
about the impact of Manny Marrable.We've heard a lot about him, but
I always like to give people's individualperspectives of what he was like in the
impact he had on students and onthat campus. Well, he was the
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only African American professor at the time, so I did take one of his
classes and he was just such apositive role MO. Then I just didn't
know him. I babysat his threekids, so I was like parts I
would go to the house babysat threekids and I worked with met his wife,
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so it was it was like afamily thing. So it continues this
thing of community extended to him.Yes, so he was very very positive,
always had the chance, wanted tolisten to you. But it was
more than him. It was theentire family, knowing the three kids and
babysitting for them, staying there andjust just being always trying to be positive
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stuff. And then Verna Cole wasthe head of the Cultural Center and I
met her when I first got there, babysat her son to a damacle.
So it was just like a familything and we all we were like a
small family. Yeah, so thatwas very good. So tell us about
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the summer. What do you rememberabout the summer. Do you remember where
you stayed, Like, we stayedin East Hall. All of us stayed
in East Hall because it was closeto the you know, the scholars program
MH. Just like all of us. That six week was wonderful and I
thought that was what COVID was goingto be. And when we left and
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when we came back, we wereall spread out. I was still in
Eaul and we were just all spreadout. And and then that was The
first time I experienced racism ever inlife was like a student not knowing you,
Like they would see you in classand then walk past you. They
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would a professor would would confuse youwith everyone else everyone when they they wouldn't.
They didn't think you were smart.Coming from Boys and Girls, I
was one of the top students there. You were at the bottom, So
they didn't think you were smart.They wouldn't call anyone. There was an
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issue of black m HM. Whenit came to a black issue, that's
when they would call anything. Andthat was very difficult just dealing with that.
And so I would actually go toh r C. Thank God for
that. So I was the onlymaybe one or two in East All Wow,
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go there almost every to visit.It was really really tough. If
I had it not been for thesummer program, I would not have survived,
I know it. Aside from thatthat challenge of uh, sort of
living in East All and being engagedwith the rest of the campus in the
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fall, what was sort of thewas there. Did you find there were
any cultural challenges you've had you hadcoming out of Boys and Girls even to
codate with the community, within thecommunity of color, What was your academic
transition, like, although you weretop of your class, did you feel
prepared or you mentioned oh us beinga support system to that, but now
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you're in the fall, give usa little. And then also politically,
what was for those people who donot know what was New York City,
especially Brooklyn coming out in the inthe eighties, what was what was that
like for you? Well? Ididn't think I was prepared because like in
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terms of your writing skills was notwhat it was supposed to be. And
just not having access to like studyaids, those those cost money, so
we did not have access to those. You know, you just had to
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just may may do. Because myparents had this expression that heights that great
men reached and kept were not attainedby sudden flight, but while their companions
slept, they were toiling through thenight. So we had a lot of
those mantras that we kept on saying, that's what kept me going. And
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you just had to like, giveyou a mountain, you're gonna climb it.
H So you just you know,you just had an end in sight
and you're just going to have todo it no matter what, whatever it
takes, whatever it takes, youdo it. So you stayed up late
and stuff, and it's funny.Colgate is when I started getting migraine headaches.
And then I speak to other people. Some people got ulcers, some
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people got different things, and youknow, and that's what happened. So
we all had our told. Iremember I spoke to one person. I
said to him many years later,I said, you know, Colgate was
kind of like a blur. Hesaid, well, it was a blur
to me, but I thought itwas a drugs I know it for you,
you don't drink and stuff, soit's it's just very difficult. So
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that was that was the hardest part. And looking back, that's why I
don't most of us do not wantto come back to Colgate because it's still
a negative. The memories are sonegative. So many years later, we
want to make sure we sign youup for the ETCD program that we are
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launching the post traumatic Colgate disorder syndromethat we're discovering and seeking reparations in form
of loan forgiveness and that old toco Gate, you know. So we'll
make sure you get that link andyou can sign up for that. Yeah,
because a lot of people don't wantto come when they speak to people
that don't want to come back.Right, what's HRC light when you are
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there? Because it's fairly new interms of its creation, So it was
just a good gathering place for everyone. So you had people from all over
the campus. That's where we gathered. And I would state there till late,
like eleven twelve. I would actuallyjust go to my dom to sleep.
So classes will go there, andit just felt like a warm,
welcoming place for us to be.I had to get support, whether it
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be just someone to listen to ouryou know, even if we had homework
and stuff, you know, justjust to talk about the perfect vessels and
just different anything, any and everything. We could talk about. Where'd you
stay your four years after East Fall? So then after East Saul, then
I went to Stillman, and thenthen I went to Russell. Yes I
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was close enough to just walk overinstead of going out in that cold,
right, and then I did anoff campus thing which for a little while,
but it was mainly so those things. So it was good. How
about extracurricula, What were you involvedin while you were there? You know,
I didn't do much. Just fightingthe struggle was fighting the struggle takes
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all your energy, especially when you'renot used to it. I think if
you're born here and you used tofighting it so long, all the years
it takes it, it does takea toll on you. Mh, what'd
you major in French? And likea mind of education. So the good
thing is I did go away toFrance. I did a study group in
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France, and even that was achallenge because they didn't have any French major
of color. So COVID had ad Jon study group and they didn't allow
me to be a part of it, which was a big fight as well.
Yes, so to what they didis that they allowed me to go
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on to Strasbourg with Syracuse study groupbecause I thought it to go to Strasbourg
the Syracuse study group, and thenthey used my my age eight package to
send me there. Mm hm sobut I but so it was like a
big fight everything. I mean.I remember one religion because in Jamaica we
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start off there's no separation between stateand religion, so every day we start
off devotion and school and it doesground deal. So I wrote for my
religion tape, I wrote something Ican't remember what it was, but apparently
it goes against religion, and theprofessor refused to grade it. Oh not
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just not, he's refused to gradeit because he went against his religious thing.
And I was shocks. I hadto fight that. So what he
agreed on it was like he wasjust gonna He said, no grade a
big red and then we had tofight and he was does it win against
religion? Yes it was. Hesaid this is not what what? Yeah,
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he said, this is what.So he was no grade because this
is not what religion is about,which is you're supposed to be We're in
academia, so we're supposed to beable to write anything. So he went
again, he did not grade it. And then when I went to the
head of the apartment, instead ofbacking me, they said, okay,
(20:00):
what you'll do instead of three papers, you'll get graded on two. So
I found. So that took alot from me, you know, like
I found. So everything was afight because I don't back down. So
I went to them and I did. I went to them when they won't
admit me to Ladish and I said, I'm a French major. I can
write a paper in ten page paperin French. I've been taking French all
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this time and I can get onthe study group. And they did not
let me on, but they allowedme to go to Syracuse on their study
group. Did you did you knowgoing into Cogate and coming out of high
school you were going to be aFrench major Or is this so you just
kind of like fall into it?No? No, I liked I liked
languages, and I studied French inJamaica actually and since Jamaica, and then
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also I took Italian at Corgate aswell, and I only took it for
one year, but I did verywell. I was very adept at languages.
I was going to try to dosomething with languages. But and when
I entered Strasbourg with Syracuse, therethere was like a hundred or one hundred
student and I was one of twowho was allowed to take it in the
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university itself. That's how good Iwas in French and so everything, So
all of that, it takes alot of energy to fight, and so
I couldn't. I wish I couldhave taken opportunity of so many things like
the golfing or the different thing,but it takes a lot to fight.
So that's what I did a lotof time just getting different things. You
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have to fight to get your grades. You have to fight for everything.
That's a miss of fighting and thestruggle with challenging professions and departments. When
when you look back at your fouryear career, do you what do you
consider to be sort of like yoursuccesses, your highlights, your your your
your victory, your personal victories.There, I was glad I was able
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to major in French. I thinkit's a good good education because education is
not only in the classroom, it'salso what you learn and the connection you
made. So for one thing,when I was able to go to to
Strasbourg, it opened my zest fortraveling. And now I've been to more
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than one hundred countries and actually Ithink it's one hundred and fifteen. And
I am very good at traveling,very good at interacting with different people.
So I think the strip to Strasbourg. And while I was in Strasbourg,
I was traveling. I did sometraveling and I was going to visit England
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and I went on a ferry thatcrashed during that time, and I was
supposed to be under ferry. Andthen it's funny, my mom thought I
had been was on there that crashysaw the news because I was scheduled to
go on there, and then shewas trying to call my French family.
They didn't speak English, so shethought something was wrong with me. So,
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you know, but you get usedto traveling dealer with different people.
I go to countries and you haveto learn, so you learn how to
adapt, and that's when COVID taughtme and stuff. I've been to Japan
where they give me the the brochuresin Japanese because I think I lived there.
You learn to adapt and you actlike you belongs. So I've been
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to China, Hong Kong where theythink. They said, you're still working
with the embassy, and I'm notafraid to go out. I've been to
When I was in Japan, Iwalked, I walked, I got there.
Next morning, I went out andthis American met me and she couldn't
believe it because she said she hasfamily who they don't want to come there.
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She was stationed there teaching and shesaid they won't come there, and
when they do, they won't evengo outside by themselves. So I've been
to diverse countries like Uzbekistan, youknow, tuk my Can and those countries.
So, and I've been to likeeighteen countries in Africa. I've been
to Europe, I mean, evenAsia and places where they don't have black
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like Uzakistan they didn't have but theydon't have black folks at all. And
just and I go get around andI don't let it stop me. So
I guess because of all the fightthat I've had a COVID, not scared
of anything, and I'm not.I go anywhere and stuff and do whatever
I want and I don't let anythingstop me. Well, We're going to
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take a porse right there and showsome love to our sponsor. And I
just kind of reflect on how jealousI am that whin someon is gone to
like one hundred and seventy five countries. But we'll be back for part two
of this conversation with Winston Road Classesof nineteen eighty eight. So this episode
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is sponsored by Hope Murals. HopeMurals is a nonprofit that provides adolescent youth
with an interactive experience of creative expressionvia an urban arts platform that stimulates both
mental and physical development. Please visitthat website at www dot murals dot org
to learn more and find ways youcan support the work they do. Welcome
(25:26):
back, Welcome back. We arehere in part two of this conversation with
win some rud class of nineteen eightyeight. This is after Gate season four.
Looking forward to continuing this conversation,but before we jump in, let's
make sure we thank our sponsor,Hope Murals. Heard some really good updates
earlier, so make sure you learnmore about what Hope Mural is doing as
(25:48):
they are doing all that they canto expose our use to urban arts,
helping them become better people, bettercitizens as they are focused on their development.
Hope Murals. They have of website, hopemurals dot org. At Hope
Murals is their social media. Showthem some love, all right. Also,
we want to make sure we areshowing some love to our podcast network,
(26:11):
the the Firelife Network at thefilife dotCo. Find some really interesting and
powering written content. They also havea podcast hub where you find aftigating other
podcasts on their podcast hub and thatis the filifepods dot Com. Just a
reminder, you can find our showon all of your major podcast streaming services,
(26:34):
so that's Applepodsspreaker, Spotify, ourHeart, et cetera. Make sure
you like subscribe when you check themout. Always want to show some love
to our past guests because without thosealums, big shout out to all our
AOC's. Without them being guests andsharing their great stories and their journeys,
we wouldn't have a show. Somake sure you sign up so you can
(26:55):
be on Aftergate as a guest,and I will pass it to my co
host Jerry so he can get usright back into part two. Welcome back
AOC fan. We are on theshow tonight with just a winsome Rud class
at eighty eight amidst the woman theLegacy lives and excited about the second half
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of the show and learning about whather journey has been like since Kogate.
But before we get into that componentof the show, a subject matter that's
near a deed of my heart,you definitely love to get a Miss Rud's
perspective on this idea of our Sonot just US's perspective, but just under
an international comparison, why is theUS so invested in our incarcerated system and
(27:45):
the institution of incarceration. We knowfor years now, I mean maybe about
thirty years in the discussion around theschool to prison pipeline and how they're able
to assess academic scores and project thenfor beds and institutions that will house many
of our young men and women basedon academic scores. But there seems to
(28:07):
be so much more going on interms of the government and the private sector
when it comes to mass incarceration.So well, not to get your perspective
is run on sort of what areyour thoughts on this sort of institutional dominant
that impacts so many of our brothersand sisters from communities all around the country.
(28:30):
And and if you can, sinceyou have such an international perspective,
you know, put it it alsoin context with what that looks like around
the world. So when I iafter after Colgate, I went and got
a law degree and I focused onI always wanted to work with the under
under the underserved population, So Istarted working with criminal defendants and I did
(28:56):
juveniles and adults. And then Irealized that they were not getting a lot
of them were not getting the schoolsystem that they need. They were not
getting it. So then after thatI went and got a master's in early
childhood education. So I also wantto say that when I came here,
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I thought that they started discouraging usin high school or around that time.
When I did my student teaching inearly childhood, I did four and five
year old. It started early,it started then. It's almost like they
say that the credit to the grave, it starts very early. So I
(29:38):
went and got my masters an earlychild because I think if we spend money
on kids when they're young, wewon't need them, we won't need to
spend that much money, we won'tneed to incarcerate them. And because I
met a lot of clients who werejust bright. My defendants were very bright,
(30:00):
but they just never got the chance. No one took any interest in
them, no one encourage them.Just like at COVID, where people encouragement.
I came to HRC. If weencourage them younger, then they would
do well. They were very bright, but they just didn't have people encouragement.
And encouragement is very very important.And I think as a population we're
(30:22):
doing great, especially all the thingsthat we've had to go through, all
the obstacles that's placed in our pathfrom we're young, whether we got side,
were followed in the subway and inthe supermarket, we can't get a
cab, and people always think we'relying people in school, they think we're
(30:47):
plagiarizing, they think we're stealing,police stops us. I mean, it
just it just affects us all differentways. I get migrants, some people
get ulcers and stuff. And Iwas very upset that they spent so much
money housing one inmate and they willnot spend a fraction of that to educate
(31:11):
a student. And so my goalwas to to take to nurture the young
students and hopefully pass them on tosomeone else so that we won't have that
problem later on in life. Butwhen we get to the criminal age.
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But it's but it's the deliberate mhm, it's very I mean, I couldn't
believe how calculating it was because inmy elementary school teaching, they did not
support the students at all. Likea student is so excited. You see
the excitement, and it can startin September and it gets dimmed. Their
lives get dimmed. And it's verydeliberate. They will a student will go
(31:57):
and just try to practice their nameand it will say oh okay. And
I see it when I say,oh great, that's good, you've done
it. How they smile and howthey want to keep trying, and we
really have to just encourage them.You just have to spend time with them
and encourage them and how you candim the light and kill the light and
(32:17):
all that then and then when youdo that right, they become they don't
want to do it, and thenthey lose that interest, and then they
become whether it's criminal court, juvenilelinquent, and then eventually they become they
become state defendants. I also seeit in my family court practice, how
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they remove a child from the homeand expect the parents, so they were
living with the children and then theyremove them, and I expect the parents
not to be upset when they removethem and they give them visit with them
twice a week for two hours fromliving and they want to why people don't
(33:00):
get upset about that. So it'sjust that we're not spending time and America,
in America, we we have morepeople in prison than like the most
populous country like India and China.And it's not as if we're committing crimes
more crimes, and it's the thethe length of the sentences are ridiculous.
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And at Colger we had the crackcocaine, the crack epidemic, and there
was nothing worst. I mean,called a crackhead, a crack baby.
No one did anything about it untilit started effecting the white community. Then
they put money in rehabilitation or thejob programs, so and and and and
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the reason why. So when peopletalk about why people are doing it,
if you're not looking at the reasonthat they're doing it, then you can't
talk to me. Mm hmm.If you're saying even with crimes, if
you're saying they're committing crimes, thenyou have to tell me. You have
to look at the reason why they'recommitting crimes. I've seen a police will
go there to a neighborhood, ablack neighborhood, and two family members are
(34:12):
having a dispute and they will arrestboth. They go to a white neighborhood
and they will tell them to cooloff, leave and cool off. I've
seen them ticket a black child forriding their bicycle on the sidewalk while they
go to a white neighborhood and theywill just leave it alone. So it's
(34:32):
amazing what they're doing. Or someonewill call a police officer because they have
a child with special needed, adultswith special need and they come and they
shoot them. How many times haveyou seen it on the news? H
instead of helping them, they're notthey come and shoot them or taste of
them. They use a stunt gun. And it's just, it's just And
(34:54):
that just gets me very very upset. And and when you have the programs
that they even put them in,its not programs run by black folks who
understand what they're going through and whothey will have trust in. I have
(35:14):
colleagues who don't even know about theircases. They will not even know the
name of their clients. They don'tspeak to them between court dates. Wow,
how are you going to help someoneif you think so little of them
and they marginalize them even further.So it's yes, it does. And
(35:37):
how can you have a court systemwhere you have most people, most of
the attorneys who are defending them benot like them, So they don't even
understand what they're saying, they don'tunderstand that the language, they don't even
understand what they're going through. Theydon't understand that they don't have the money
to come to court. And thenif you don't feel comfortable talking to your
(36:04):
your your attorney, you're not goingto be able to help them. M
absolutely absolutely, you know, Soit's just but this must incarceration. Nothing
has ever been done about it.It just gets worse. And then you
have like in New York, theupstate prisons are to make money for the
community up there. So it's notthat we're even making it. We're not
(36:30):
getting a job out of this.It's it's like it's not benefiting anyone.
And then they get abused in prison, even the juveniles, when they take
them out, they abuse them,and then they come out worse because prison
is not is about it's not aboutrehabilitation. And I've heard people say,
well, if you can't do thetime, don't do the crime. But
(36:51):
there are a lot of innocent peoplein jail, and there are a lot
of people who are it's just forpetty stuff. And then when we did
the bail reform in New York,people were so against it and people just
did not even think of the pandemic, how it was, how it affected
(37:12):
people and cause people to react.So all of those things are just I
don't know. I just think weneed to spend more money on our children,
spend more money on education, getbetter teachers, trained them, and
support them. M. Hmmm,because even when you try to, like
(37:32):
I try to do good job,and you'd be surprised at the fighter that
I get what're trying to do thesystem. I know, like no matter
what you try to, if youtry to do your good job, they
fight you. Even if you're not. It's nothing to do with them,
You're just trying to help your client. They will fight. Well, you
(37:54):
sort of alluded to it a littlebit in your in your commentary just now,
but we'd love to get a littlebit more in depth with understanding graduated
Kogate in eighty eight. You kindof mentioned a few of the things you
do, but kind of walk usthrough some of the steps that took you
(38:15):
to law school, to grad schoolto traveling and bring us up to currentin
and where you are today. Soand I have to ask, like,
were you one of those students thatvisited the Career Planning Center senior year and
just sort of had that advisor breakit down for you or did you just
kind of build a plane and flyat once you cleared Hamilton, New York.
(38:36):
I just built a plan and IColgate was the pace where I was
the most support We had the mostsupportive students of color. I thought that
was the norm. After I leftColgate, people became people were everyone I
met was going selfish, Like Colgatewas like when you wanted to do something
like this happened, They're like,okay, I'll go meet with you,
(38:58):
I'll go do this, and theysaid and were supportive. That support ended
at the moment I left COVID.So looking back, COVID was the most
supportive environment I've ever been in,where people had their back and they were
interested in fighting a struggle and makinga change. I don't know what happened
after that, if people get getso scared, but so that it didn't
(39:22):
happen after COVID. So after whenI was at COVID, I wanted to
be a lawyer and I wanted tohelp, and I went straight to law
school. Then when I realized thatso many people were not like a lot
of my clients were needed an education, I went to get a master's in
(39:43):
early childhood and I wanted to opena school because I just think if we
I think education is a cure allfor everything, if we get the right
thing in place, and if wespend more money on our children. So
law school regres school followed right right. No, no, no, no,
I went now, grad school followedright away. Then after I was
(40:05):
practicing for like seven years, Irealized that I needed to go. So
it was a really it was abig commitment because I would work nine to
five, go to school like sixto nine, come home, and then
sometime I had to do night court. A night code was five to one.
So it was a grueling schedule.Then I had This was back in
(40:27):
New York City. Yeah, Andback in New Yorkity. I went to
Brooklyn College for my grad Then Iwent to al Beney for my law school.
Then they wanted me to work withI was one of only two people
who are not teachers in the Bastardsprogram because everyone else was a teacher for
the early child. Then they wantedme to work with three children or group
(40:47):
like four children, and they wantedme to do it like three days a
week the same group. And Iwas like, oh am, I god
do it when I have a job. So I went to this the school
near the courthouse, and I said, I went to the Prince. I
(41:08):
went there and they were like,no, we can't let you in like
that. And as I was walkinga teacher came was walking and she said,
you know what, I went toyour I went to Brooklyn College.
I will let you come work withthe school. So I went, got
fingerprinted, got my arm the testfor what's that? What did? I
(41:30):
do? Two TV tests? AndI started working with her and three days
a week I had to come.Then they said I needed to do student
teach it for a semester. SoI had to take an unpaid leave for
my job, and I went.They didn't want to give it to me,
so I had to fight to getit. And then I did six
months unpaid. And then I didthat and loved it. And then I
(41:54):
finished my paper and I had todo my thesis, you know and stuff.
And then I did that, andthen in the meantime, I just
I think traveling you learn more thanin school, and it just gives you
a broader perspective and you get tolearn a lot from people. So then
I started traveling. Then after thatthen I will open my own practice.
(42:16):
So I'm self employed. Now,okay, I was traveling related to anything
legal in education or that was justyour That was just something for me to
do. I think in the beginningwas a way to deal with the stress.
It was like and also part ofmy education because I like to see
different systems and talk to different people. So I remember I was in Norway
(42:39):
and I was sitting in a cafeand this woman came to sit beside me,
and I was asking her about herlike her system there in terms of
children, who you know, andshe said she was telling me about the
they have orphanages there, and shesaid, you know, you're the only
American have met who listen to whatI said about often And I didn't make
(43:02):
a bit, didn't put it down. You're so different. And I said,
well, I like to find anew system, and none of them
is perfect. She said, everyone'slike orphanage. That's the worst thing ever.
But she said, you listen,you ask questions, and you talk
to me about it. She said, I've never met anyone like you who
didn't put it down. So soyou know, I talk to different people.
(43:24):
I'll go to the local cafe andsit down and I'll sit on the
dirt dirt thing and little stool andjust talk to different people. And that
so my education continues because you'll learnso much from different things. If I
can, I'll go to a schooland see how it works, you know,
(43:45):
and different thing. I've not goneto a prison, but to see
how it work. But I'll askpeople about their prison system. We give
out the worst, that the most, the longest sentence, yes, and
then we'll get I mean, it'sridiculous. And then for the young,
(44:06):
like we'll give a sixteen year oldlife with a parole. I mean,
what's the incentive. I don't care. I mean the brain is not fully
develop at that aid for you todo it, and you know, for
them to understand, and you haveto look at the reason why they do
stuff at that age. And that'swhy mental health is on the rise.
That's why we have more suicides whenyou look at it. So I always
(44:30):
try. They'll think, at myjob, I'm a softy, but no,
we have to learn to listen tothem and try to do it.
So so so now I have myown practice and I still do. My
cases are usually from the city onthe state that they get assigned, and
I do a lot of mostly families. So I deal with when they take
their children away, and you know, for because they will take a child
(44:54):
away, they will take a childfrom the mother, say for educational the
because one of them, and they'llput them in a home, and they
don't tell the people in the homethe new the foster pearan. They don't
give them the paperwork to send themto school, so they're not going to
school anyway. And I think alot of times when they remove a child,
(45:19):
they can provide the services in thehome and keep the family intact.
And I just think that if wethe parents do love their children for the
most pile, I'm not talking aboutwhere you burn your kid or you beat
them after that, I'm not talkingabout those cases, they need to be
removed, but most times they cankeep them, like if the house is
(45:42):
dirty, first of all, dirtyhouse is objective, and if you can
keep them in the home, providea food, provide a housekeep and all
these things and just let the kidsbe happy. Because they'll remove four children,
put them in different homes. Sothe child is removed from his mother,
he is removed from his siblings thathe knows, the house that he
(46:06):
knows, his mother, the school, the neighborhood. How do you expect
him to do well? And thenthe services that they give them is not
run by usually I run by notpeople of color who understand the cultural dynamics
of it. So all of thosethings just makes it I feel very passionate
(46:29):
about this, and all of itmakes it harder for them to survive.
And then they will send them itcould be a Brooklyn case, they'll send
to do parenting in Staten Island,and then they will send them to do
something else another place. You shouldtry to put it in the same location,
(46:50):
you know, yes, and it'shard, you know, so you
have to try to put it tomake it easier for them to do it.
And then they will try to terminatetheir which is like a death sentence
of family court, and you know, just just can't imagine you gave birth
to the child, even if it'slike your niece or never you a French
child who you spend time with.It will be hard if they terminated you.
(47:14):
You can't get to see them.Well, thank you for continuing to
advocate for our community, for ourfamilies, for our young people and giving
them a chance, because it's wecan't reach them all, but those that
we do reach and those that wedo impact, thank you. Thank you.
If you're a business looking to getyour brand in front of a loyal,
(47:37):
supportive, successful market, you needto become a sponsor of Aftergate.
Our network recognizes the opportunity to workwith cod Gates, a lum of color,
to leverage the reach of the showto increase awareness and profitability for your
business. Reach out to the DefileLife podcast network and we will work with
you throughout the entire process. Wehave special packages to get you started.
(47:59):
Contact us at info at godofirelife dotcom. Every week professionals of color,
ranging from politicians to educators, tojudges, to entrepreneurs, to lawyers,
corporate leaders, and even retirees.After Gate reaches an array of successful bipod
listeners. Contact us to learn moreabout how we can benefit You would love
(48:23):
to get a sense of your perspective, right like when you think about who
you were going into Kogate. Ifyou had the opportunity to offer some words
of advice to that Winsdom at theage of eighteen, what would be some
words of advice you would offer thatwinsome. And also, if you can
(48:45):
think about the Winsom that was leavingKolgate and offer some words of advice to
that young lady, what would bethe words of advice you would offer that
twenty one to twenty two year oldwho was graduating Kogate. So eighteen I
will say it's going to be allright, and twenty one is like keep
(49:05):
on fighting, keep on fighting.Love it, love it, love it,
love it, love it. Sobefore we get out of here,
would love to give you a chanceto share any initiative, website, any
pause that you would love our listenersto learn more about support for. I
(49:30):
mean, part of why we dothis is so that we can get our
listener galvanized and leverage the AOC networkto support some of the things that other
AOC are doing. So if there'sany website or cause that you would say,
hey, please do me a favorite, check this out or support this,
here's an opportunity to plug whatever you'dlike to plug. Well, my
(49:53):
nephew, my twenty nine year oldnephew is autistic, so I would ask
that you support any cause relating toautism. Mm hmm it is any last
words before we get out of here. One person can make a difference,
and don't think, don't it doeshave to be money. Just spend time
(50:15):
with someone. Just listen. Ifsomeone calls you at a weird hour,
just listen to them. Even ifyou just you could be talking about oh
is it raining today? That mightsave the person. It does have to
be. You don't have to talkabout what's really want on them, but
given them to your ear makes adifference. So spend time listen to someone
(50:36):
no matter what they're talking about.That will make a difference. And you
have to give your time. Youjust have to give yourself. That's the
thing. You don't have to havethe money, Just give time. It
doesn't matter to a young old Justbe a good listener. Mm hmm.
That's gonna love it that you're gonnahelp someone. Just listen to them.
(50:58):
Take the time, take the time. You shouldn't be ever too busy to
help someone. Do the good youcan. As my mom said, do
the best you can and all theways you can, for all the people
you can, as long as youas you can. Love it, love
it, love it. So thishas been another episode of after Gate season
four. Thank you to our guests, Thank you to our listeners. After
(51:21):
Gate is always powered by the thefire Life Network, so make sure you
check us out in the future onall of your favorite podcast streaming platforms.
Many more dope episodes to follow,and remember as always that the codate of
your day is not the coldgate oftoday, and it's certainly not the cold
gate of the future. Peace family. You hear that, listen closer that
(51:51):
my friend is definitely sout focus.It drowns out all the useless now as
that can clutter. They sayers don'texist, haters, smaters, the peanut
gallery. Who's that? When you'rein your zone, all that noise and
all that buzz is just elevator music. So enjoy your journey, focus on
(52:12):
your goal in basque and the choiretrole that is progressing. Because when it's
your time to shoot that shot,spit that verse, or close that deal,
the only voice that matters is yours, the firelight
The following podcast is being brought toyou by the Defile Life podcast Network.
Welcome to Aftergate, Powered by theDefile Life Network. Are you all Ready?
Aftergate? Is a podcast series highlightingColgate alumni of color in their professional
(00:22):
endeavors. Aftergate Are you all Ready? Aftergate? Is hosted by Alvin Glymph
aka al and Herman Dubois aka AJerry Already. We are doing Aftergate because
Colgate University has produced innovators who havechanged the world every day, Yet many
alumni of color and the mainstream Colgatecommunity are unaware of the amazing accomplishments of
(00:44):
alums of color. Are you allready? Welcome? Welcome, Welcome,
This is Aftergate. This is yourboy. Alvin Glymph, co host of
this podcast, the podcast that focuseson amplifying documenting the journeys of alumni of
(01:08):
color from COVID University and as always, I am joined by my co host,
miss the head of my du bois. What's the deal, Jerry?
How you doing? Bro? What'sgoing on? Brother? Al can't complain
or It's good to be back onthe after Gate set and exploring another story
(01:30):
of one of our great alumna ofcolor from Kogate. So you're looking forward
to, looking forward to to Wednesdayevening all day, all day, and
it's like it's always extra special whenit's someone that we had the opportunity to
spend some time with on campus.So getting to learn this story after Gate
(01:53):
but also before Colgate, and inthis case, since we only overlap one
year, it's going to be interestingto hear how things were before we even
got there. But everything good inMiami an the updates, manorhouse, thing
going on your side. Miami isgood. Miami is good. Closing out
the school year, so down tothe last couple of weeks of school the
(02:14):
semester hole MirOS is just finished.Another project completed, uh mural for Urban
Urban Aquaponics Lab to talking to kidsabout urban farming, so another little different
medium for us, but nonetheless inthe historic over town. UH So we've
got another another mural booked for fornext month, working with wounded warrior as
(02:38):
well as working on a piece tributeto Harry Belafonte, who I just found
out was a Navy veteran, andand and and and actually there's a story
about how he avoided a major bombingand where he was based, like a
momb shortly after he had left.So there's a community center in Miami called
(03:01):
the Bella Fatas the Colcy Center,which he was a big part of writing
Seed Money and starting and so it'sthe same location we completed the Kataji Brow
Jackson mural, and so we arenow in collaboration with Wounded Warrior doing a
mural tribute to Harry Belofonte. Yeah, we've been rolling with it. It's
(03:22):
going well. Excited about the newschool year, some opportunities on the horizon
to continue to grow hope, muralsand expand our reach. Love to hear
it, Love to hear it,keeping it moving. Four momentum, that's
the word that keeping the momentum going. So keep it going, love to
(03:43):
hear those updates, and as wewe're going to keep the momentum going in
tonight's show because we've had some fascinatingstories so far for the past eighty episodes.
As we are in season four,season corrects, Reckoni for those of
you who don't know, now youknow, now you know, And so
(04:05):
episode eighty one, can I getyour permission to invite this week's guests into
the studio. My brother, asalways the congregation says Amen, Amen Colgate
AOC Aftergate listeners, I ask yourpermission, get your blessing to invite the
(04:28):
one that only win some rud classof nineteen eighty eight. Welcome to Aftergate,
my sister. Thank you. Wealways like to set the context and
(04:50):
let our listeners know, is it'ssomeone that we have experienced with or we
learning this person's history and journey liveas they are. But in this case,
we have had the pleasure, asI mentioned earlier, of being on
campus with you for one year,and I would love to say like you
was one of them sisters that definitelyshowed us the way you know, it
(05:11):
was one of them. You werea mentor in many ways in the sense
of giving us a sense of thisis how you affirm your culture, this
is how you be a good studentand leave Kolgate better than you found it.
And so that's my memory of Winsom. Jerry, anything you want to
(05:31):
add to what you remember Winsom sinceyou was there with me, Yeah,
yeah, I just remember wins beingpart of that sort of group of upper
class women we talked about this onthe last show that were in very much
influential sort of big system maternal typeof self proclaimed guiding lights for us.
(05:55):
And you know, definitely there wasa maturity and there was a sense of
without knowing as a freshman, understandingof once I became a senior kind of
like why they were so focused andserious and and and why they did what
they did for us. Uh andin many ways trained us to be able
(06:17):
to pass that on to those whofollowed. And so I've always appreciated that
and even though at the time theynot have realized its value. You know,
she falls into that same bucket offolks with the Carla Bedford and the
Holly said. It was just folksrespected and and really were just at that
big sist that was like, youknow, could call us out when when
(06:39):
when we're acting the fool and neededthat extra you know, just hey,
hey, right, recognized recognized youknow, you represent you represent all of
us, and we represent each other. So I right. So I'm glad
I was able to do that.Thank you. It's good to know.
So give us a sense of whatyour life was like before Cogate. So
(07:01):
you're a class of eighty eight,So you graduate high school then nineteen eighty
four, Yes, where are youfrom? Where I was home. Well,
I was born in Jamaica and Iit's funny enough, I was only
in at Cogate in the US forone year before I came to COVID.
Wow. So Colgate was very traumaticfor me because it was the first time
(07:24):
I dealt with racism. So comingfrom a country where it was predominantly blacks,
it was different. It was thefirst time I experienced in racism.
So I came to Brooklyn and Iwas in high school for one year and
I Boys and Girls High School.Okay, right there off Atlantic Avenue.
Yes, it was predominant, butof course it was black and it was
(07:48):
very supportive. So I thought thiswas America. And then I came to
Colgate and then I was It wasa rude awakeness. Yeah. So growing
up in Jamaica, my mother,my late mother, who had a saying,
do the best you can, inall the ways you can, for
(08:09):
all the people you can, foras long as you can. Mm hmm
like that. And she did notwe didn't have much, but she always
helped. She said she had thissaying like, if you have one finger
banana, you share it and giveit to the neighbors. So I grew
up in that community time environment,and we always helped each other no matter
(08:30):
how little we had, we shared. And then I came here and people
had a lot and would rather throwit away than give it to some to
others. So it's funny that yousaid I assisted you, because that's what
I learned. So the one yearat high school, I met a guidance
counselor, Ignace Griffith, who helpedme. He told me about Colgate and
(08:54):
about other schools. He gave mefee waiver to apply because within the money,
and he really really assisted me.He passed away in February tenth of
this year. I kept in touchwith him for forty years wow. And
he was instrumental in assisted me.When my father passed away, he wrote
(09:16):
me a letter. He was thefirst one at my mom's funeral HM and
he reinforced what I learned growing upthat one person can make a difference positive
different so and you have to bethere for each other, and you have
to be there for listing. Socoming to Colgate the summer program really has
(09:37):
helped me, Like having like SarahIshmael, he's very good, and then
just having everyone there and then manand Marrabora was close to his wife,
has Amarrabora. I still keep intouch with her. Okay, so they
say she's in Atlanta, Now Imean I kept in touch with her.
(09:58):
They moved to Ohio, they movedbolder and everywhere followed them, you know,
because I think once you may contact, you're supposed to. I believe
and keep in touch. So Ikept in touch with her all this time.
I spoke to her on Sunday,called her from other's day. Wow.
Yes, So it's very important forme to keep in touch. So
(10:18):
the summer's program was very good.I would not have survived COVID without it.
So before you get into the summerprogram, give us a little bit
about the impact of Manny Marrable.We've heard a lot about him, but
I always like to give people's individualperspectives of what he was like in the
impact he had on students and onthat campus. Well, he was the
(10:39):
only African American professor at the time, so I did take one of his
classes and he was just such apositive role MO. Then I just didn't
know him. I babysat his threekids, so I was like parts I
would go to the house babysat threekids and I worked with met his wife,
(11:01):
so it was it was like afamily thing. So it continues this
thing of community extended to him.Yes, so he was very very positive,
always had the chance, wanted tolisten to you. But it was
more than him. It was theentire family, knowing the three kids and
babysitting for them, staying there andjust just being always trying to be positive
(11:26):
stuff. And then Verna Cole wasthe head of the Cultural Center and I
met her when I first got there, babysat her son to a damacle.
So it was just like a familything and we all we were like a
small family. Yeah, so thatwas very good. So tell us about
(11:46):
the summer. What do you rememberabout the summer. Do you remember where
you stayed, Like, we stayedin East Hall. All of us stayed
in East Hall because it was closeto the you know, the scholars program
MH. Just like all of us. That six week was wonderful and I
thought that was what COVID was goingto be. And when we left and
(12:09):
when we came back, we wereall spread out. I was still in
Eaul and we were just all spreadout. And and then that was The
first time I experienced racism ever inlife was like a student not knowing you,
Like they would see you in classand then walk past you. They
(12:30):
would a professor would would confuse youwith everyone else everyone when they they wouldn't.
They didn't think you were smart.Coming from Boys and Girls, I
was one of the top students there. You were at the bottom, So
they didn't think you were smart.They wouldn't call anyone. There was an
(12:50):
issue of black m HM. Whenit came to a black issue, that's
when they would call anything. Andthat was very difficult just dealing with that.
And so I would actually go toh r C. Thank God for
that. So I was the onlymaybe one or two in East All Wow,
(13:11):
go there almost every to visit.It was really really tough. If
I had it not been for thesummer program, I would not have survived,
I know it. Aside from thatthat challenge of uh, sort of
living in East All and being engagedwith the rest of the campus in the
(13:31):
fall, what was sort of thewas there. Did you find there were
any cultural challenges you've had you hadcoming out of Boys and Girls even to
codate with the community, within thecommunity of color, What was your academic
transition, like, although you weretop of your class, did you feel
prepared or you mentioned oh us beinga support system to that, but now
(13:54):
you're in the fall, give usa little. And then also politically,
what was for those people who donot know what was New York City,
especially Brooklyn coming out in the inthe eighties, what was what was that
like for you? Well? Ididn't think I was prepared because like in
(14:15):
terms of your writing skills was notwhat it was supposed to be. And
just not having access to like studyaids, those those cost money, so
we did not have access to those. You know, you just had to
(14:35):
just may may do. Because myparents had this expression that heights that great
men reached and kept were not attainedby sudden flight, but while their companions
slept, they were toiling through thenight. So we had a lot of
those mantras that we kept on saying, that's what kept me going. And
(14:56):
you just had to like, giveyou a mountain, you're gonna climb it.
H So you just you know,you just had an end in sight
and you're just going to have todo it no matter what, whatever it
takes, whatever it takes, youdo it. So you stayed up late
and stuff, and it's funny.Colgate is when I started getting migraine headaches.
And then I speak to other people. Some people got ulcers, some
(15:18):
people got different things, and youknow, and that's what happened. So
we all had our told. Iremember I spoke to one person. I
said to him many years later,I said, you know, Colgate was
kind of like a blur. Hesaid, well, it was a blur
to me, but I thought itwas a drugs I know it for you,
you don't drink and stuff, soit's it's just very difficult. So
(15:39):
that was that was the hardest part. And looking back, that's why I
don't most of us do not wantto come back to Colgate because it's still
a negative. The memories are sonegative. So many years later, we
want to make sure we sign youup for the ETCD program that we are
(16:02):
launching the post traumatic Colgate disorder syndromethat we're discovering and seeking reparations in form
of loan forgiveness and that old toco Gate, you know. So we'll
make sure you get that link andyou can sign up for that. Yeah,
because a lot of people don't wantto come when they speak to people
that don't want to come back.Right, what's HRC light when you are
(16:25):
there? Because it's fairly new interms of its creation, So it was
just a good gathering place for everyone. So you had people from all over
the campus. That's where we gathered. And I would state there till late,
like eleven twelve. I would actuallyjust go to my dom to sleep.
So classes will go there, andit just felt like a warm,
welcoming place for us to be.I had to get support, whether it
(16:49):
be just someone to listen to ouryou know, even if we had homework
and stuff, you know, justjust to talk about the perfect vessels and
just different anything, any and everything. We could talk about. Where'd you
stay your four years after East Fall? So then after East Saul, then
I went to Stillman, and thenthen I went to Russell. Yes I
(17:15):
was close enough to just walk overinstead of going out in that cold,
right, and then I did anoff campus thing which for a little while,
but it was mainly so those things. So it was good. How
about extracurricula, What were you involvedin while you were there? You know,
I didn't do much. Just fightingthe struggle was fighting the struggle takes
(17:41):
all your energy, especially when you'renot used to it. I think if
you're born here and you used tofighting it so long, all the years
it takes it, it does takea toll on you. Mh, what'd
you major in French? And likea mind of education. So the good
thing is I did go away toFrance. I did a study group in
(18:04):
France, and even that was achallenge because they didn't have any French major
of color. So COVID had ad Jon study group and they didn't allow
me to be a part of it, which was a big fight as well.
Yes, so to what they didis that they allowed me to go
(18:27):
on to Strasbourg with Syracuse study groupbecause I thought it to go to Strasbourg
the Syracuse study group, and thenthey used my my age eight package to
send me there. Mm hm sobut I but so it was like a
big fight everything. I mean.I remember one religion because in Jamaica we
(18:51):
start off there's no separation between stateand religion, so every day we start
off devotion and school and it doesground deal. So I wrote for my
religion tape, I wrote something Ican't remember what it was, but apparently
it goes against religion, and theprofessor refused to grade it. Oh not
(19:15):
just not, he's refused to gradeit because he went against his religious thing.
And I was shocks. I hadto fight that. So what he
agreed on it was like he wasjust gonna He said, no grade a
big red and then we had tofight and he was does it win against
religion? Yes it was. Hesaid this is not what what? Yeah,
(19:40):
he said, this is what.So he was no grade because this
is not what religion is about,which is you're supposed to be We're in
academia, so we're supposed to beable to write anything. So he went
again, he did not grade it. And then when I went to the
head of the apartment, instead ofbacking me, they said, okay,
(20:00):
what you'll do instead of three papers, you'll get graded on two. So
I found. So that took alot from me, you know, like
I found. So everything was afight because I don't back down. So
I went to them and I did. I went to them when they won't
admit me to Ladish and I said, I'm a French major. I can
write a paper in ten page paperin French. I've been taking French all
(20:22):
this time and I can get onthe study group. And they did not
let me on, but they allowedme to go to Syracuse on their study
group. Did you did you knowgoing into Cogate and coming out of high
school you were going to be aFrench major Or is this so you just
kind of like fall into it?No? No, I liked I liked
languages, and I studied French inJamaica actually and since Jamaica, and then
(20:45):
also I took Italian at Corgate aswell, and I only took it for
one year, but I did verywell. I was very adept at languages.
I was going to try to dosomething with languages. But and when
I entered Strasbourg with Syracuse, therethere was like a hundred or one hundred
student and I was one of twowho was allowed to take it in the
(21:08):
university itself. That's how good Iwas in French and so everything, So
all of that, it takes alot of energy to fight, and so
I couldn't. I wish I couldhave taken opportunity of so many things like
the golfing or the different thing,but it takes a lot to fight.
So that's what I did a lotof time just getting different things. You
(21:32):
have to fight to get your grades. You have to fight for everything.
That's a miss of fighting and thestruggle with challenging professions and departments. When
when you look back at your fouryear career, do you what do you
consider to be sort of like yoursuccesses, your highlights, your your your
your victory, your personal victories.There, I was glad I was able
(21:53):
to major in French. I thinkit's a good good education because education is
not only in the classroom, it'salso what you learn and the connection you
made. So for one thing,when I was able to go to to
Strasbourg, it opened my zest fortraveling. And now I've been to more
(22:18):
than one hundred countries and actually Ithink it's one hundred and fifteen. And
I am very good at traveling,very good at interacting with different people.
So I think the strip to Strasbourg. And while I was in Strasbourg,
I was traveling. I did sometraveling and I was going to visit England
(22:42):
and I went on a ferry thatcrashed during that time, and I was
supposed to be under ferry. Andthen it's funny, my mom thought I
had been was on there that crashysaw the news because I was scheduled to
go on there, and then shewas trying to call my French family.
They didn't speak English, so shethought something was wrong with me. So,
(23:02):
you know, but you get usedto traveling dealer with different people.
I go to countries and you haveto learn, so you learn how to
adapt, and that's when COVID taughtme and stuff. I've been to Japan
where they give me the the brochuresin Japanese because I think I lived there.
You learn to adapt and you actlike you belongs. So I've been
(23:22):
to China, Hong Kong where theythink. They said, you're still working
with the embassy, and I'm notafraid to go out. I've been to
When I was in Japan, Iwalked, I walked, I got there.
Next morning, I went out andthis American met me and she couldn't
believe it because she said she hasfamily who they don't want to come there.
(23:44):
She was stationed there teaching and shesaid they won't come there, and
when they do, they won't evengo outside by themselves. So I've been
to diverse countries like Uzbekistan, youknow, tuk my Can and those countries.
So, and I've been to likeeighteen countries in Africa. I've been
to Europe, I mean, evenAsia and places where they don't have black
(24:11):
like Uzakistan they didn't have but theydon't have black folks at all. And
just and I go get around andI don't let it stop me. So
I guess because of all the fightthat I've had a COVID, not scared
of anything, and I'm not.I go anywhere and stuff and do whatever
I want and I don't let anythingstop me. Well, We're going to
(24:34):
take a porse right there and showsome love to our sponsor. And I
just kind of reflect on how jealousI am that whin someon is gone to
like one hundred and seventy five countries. But we'll be back for part two
of this conversation with Winston Road Classesof nineteen eighty eight. So this episode
(24:59):
is sponsored by Hope Murals. HopeMurals is a nonprofit that provides adolescent youth
with an interactive experience of creative expressionvia an urban arts platform that stimulates both
mental and physical development. Please visitthat website at www dot murals dot org
to learn more and find ways youcan support the work they do. Welcome
(25:26):
back, Welcome back. We arehere in part two of this conversation with
win some rud class of nineteen eightyeight. This is after Gate season four.
Looking forward to continuing this conversation,but before we jump in, let's
make sure we thank our sponsor,Hope Murals. Heard some really good updates
earlier, so make sure you learnmore about what Hope Mural is doing as
(25:48):
they are doing all that they canto expose our use to urban arts,
helping them become better people, bettercitizens as they are focused on their development.
Hope Murals. They have of website, hopemurals dot org. At Hope
Murals is their social media. Showthem some love, all right. Also,
we want to make sure we areshowing some love to our podcast network,
(26:11):
the the Firelife Network at thefilife dotCo. Find some really interesting and
powering written content. They also havea podcast hub where you find aftigating other
podcasts on their podcast hub and thatis the filifepods dot Com. Just a
reminder, you can find our showon all of your major podcast streaming services,
(26:34):
so that's Applepodsspreaker, Spotify, ourHeart, et cetera. Make sure
you like subscribe when you check themout. Always want to show some love
to our past guests because without thosealums, big shout out to all our
AOC's. Without them being guests andsharing their great stories and their journeys,
we wouldn't have a show. Somake sure you sign up so you can
(26:55):
be on Aftergate as a guest,and I will pass it to my co
host Jerry so he can get usright back into part two. Welcome back
AOC fan. We are on theshow tonight with just a winsome Rud class
at eighty eight amidst the woman theLegacy lives and excited about the second half
(27:19):
of the show and learning about whather journey has been like since Kogate.
But before we get into that componentof the show, a subject matter that's
near a deed of my heart,you definitely love to get a Miss Rud's
perspective on this idea of our Sonot just US's perspective, but just under
an international comparison, why is theUS so invested in our incarcerated system and
(27:45):
the institution of incarceration. We knowfor years now, I mean maybe about
thirty years in the discussion around theschool to prison pipeline and how they're able
to assess academic scores and project thenfor beds and institutions that will house many
of our young men and women basedon academic scores. But there seems to
(28:07):
be so much more going on interms of the government and the private sector
when it comes to mass incarceration.So well, not to get your perspective
is run on sort of what areyour thoughts on this sort of institutional dominant
that impacts so many of our brothersand sisters from communities all around the country.
(28:30):
And and if you can, sinceyou have such an international perspective,
you know, put it it alsoin context with what that looks like around
the world. So when I iafter after Colgate, I went and got
a law degree and I focused onI always wanted to work with the under
under the underserved population, So Istarted working with criminal defendants and I did
(28:56):
juveniles and adults. And then Irealized that they were not getting a lot
of them were not getting the schoolsystem that they need. They were not
getting it. So then after thatI went and got a master's in early
childhood education. So I also wantto say that when I came here,
(29:17):
I thought that they started discouraging usin high school or around that time.
When I did my student teaching inearly childhood, I did four and five
year old. It started early,it started then. It's almost like they
say that the credit to the grave, it starts very early. So I
(29:38):
went and got my masters an earlychild because I think if we spend money
on kids when they're young, wewon't need them, we won't need to
spend that much money, we won'tneed to incarcerate them. And because I
met a lot of clients who werejust bright. My defendants were very bright,
(30:00):
but they just never got the chance. No one took any interest in
them, no one encourage them.Just like at COVID, where people encouragement.
I came to HRC. If weencourage them younger, then they would
do well. They were very bright, but they just didn't have people encouragement.
And encouragement is very very important.And I think as a population we're
(30:22):
doing great, especially all the thingsthat we've had to go through, all
the obstacles that's placed in our pathfrom we're young, whether we got side,
were followed in the subway and inthe supermarket, we can't get a
cab, and people always think we'relying people in school, they think we're
(30:47):
plagiarizing, they think we're stealing,police stops us. I mean, it
just it just affects us all differentways. I get migrants, some people
get ulcers and stuff. And Iwas very upset that they spent so much
money housing one inmate and they willnot spend a fraction of that to educate
(31:11):
a student. And so my goalwas to to take to nurture the young
students and hopefully pass them on tosomeone else so that we won't have that
problem later on in life. Butwhen we get to the criminal age.
(31:32):
But it's but it's the deliberate mhm, it's very I mean, I couldn't
believe how calculating it was because inmy elementary school teaching, they did not
support the students at all. Likea student is so excited. You see
the excitement, and it can startin September and it gets dimmed. Their
lives get dimmed. And it's verydeliberate. They will a student will go
(31:57):
and just try to practice their nameand it will say oh okay. And
I see it when I say,oh great, that's good, you've done
it. How they smile and howthey want to keep trying, and we
really have to just encourage them.You just have to spend time with them
and encourage them and how you candim the light and kill the light and
(32:17):
all that then and then when youdo that right, they become they don't
want to do it, and thenthey lose that interest, and then they
become whether it's criminal court, juvenilelinquent, and then eventually they become they
become state defendants. I also seeit in my family court practice, how
(32:40):
they remove a child from the homeand expect the parents, so they were
living with the children and then theyremove them, and I expect the parents
not to be upset when they removethem and they give them visit with them
twice a week for two hours fromliving and they want to why people don't
(33:00):
get upset about that. So it'sjust that we're not spending time and America,
in America, we we have morepeople in prison than like the most
populous country like India and China.And it's not as if we're committing crimes
more crimes, and it's the thethe length of the sentences are ridiculous.
(33:25):
And at Colger we had the crackcocaine, the crack epidemic, and there
was nothing worst. I mean,called a crackhead, a crack baby.
No one did anything about it untilit started effecting the white community. Then
they put money in rehabilitation or thejob programs, so and and and and
(33:49):
the reason why. So when peopletalk about why people are doing it,
if you're not looking at the reasonthat they're doing it, then you can't
talk to me. Mm hmm.If you're saying even with crimes, if
you're saying they're committing crimes, thenyou have to tell me. You have
to look at the reason why they'recommitting crimes. I've seen a police will
go there to a neighborhood, ablack neighborhood, and two family members are
(34:12):
having a dispute and they will arrestboth. They go to a white neighborhood
and they will tell them to cooloff, leave and cool off. I've
seen them ticket a black child forriding their bicycle on the sidewalk while they
go to a white neighborhood and theywill just leave it alone. So it's
(34:32):
amazing what they're doing. Or someonewill call a police officer because they have
a child with special needed, adultswith special need and they come and they
shoot them. How many times haveyou seen it on the news? H
instead of helping them, they're notthey come and shoot them or taste of
them. They use a stunt gun. And it's just, it's just And
(34:54):
that just gets me very very upset. And and when you have the programs
that they even put them in,its not programs run by black folks who
understand what they're going through and whothey will have trust in. I have
(35:14):
colleagues who don't even know about theircases. They will not even know the
name of their clients. They don'tspeak to them between court dates. Wow,
how are you going to help someoneif you think so little of them
and they marginalize them even further.So it's yes, it does. And
(35:37):
how can you have a court systemwhere you have most people, most of
the attorneys who are defending them benot like them, So they don't even
understand what they're saying, they don'tunderstand that the language, they don't even
understand what they're going through. Theydon't understand that they don't have the money
to come to court. And thenif you don't feel comfortable talking to your
(36:04):
your your attorney, you're not goingto be able to help them. M
absolutely absolutely, you know, Soit's just but this must incarceration. Nothing
has ever been done about it.It just gets worse. And then you
have like in New York, theupstate prisons are to make money for the
community up there. So it's notthat we're even making it. We're not
(36:30):
getting a job out of this.It's it's like it's not benefiting anyone.
And then they get abused in prison, even the juveniles, when they take
them out, they abuse them,and then they come out worse because prison
is not is about it's not aboutrehabilitation. And I've heard people say,
well, if you can't do thetime, don't do the crime. But
(36:51):
there are a lot of innocent peoplein jail, and there are a lot
of people who are it's just forpetty stuff. And then when we did
the bail reform in New York,people were so against it and people just
did not even think of the pandemic, how it was, how it affected
(37:12):
people and cause people to react.So all of those things are just I
don't know. I just think weneed to spend more money on our children,
spend more money on education, getbetter teachers, trained them, and
support them. M. Hmmm,because even when you try to, like
(37:32):
I try to do good job,and you'd be surprised at the fighter that
I get what're trying to do thesystem. I know, like no matter
what you try to, if youtry to do your good job, they
fight you. Even if you're not. It's nothing to do with them,
You're just trying to help your client. They will fight. Well, you
(37:54):
sort of alluded to it a littlebit in your in your commentary just now,
but we'd love to get a littlebit more in depth with understanding graduated
Kogate in eighty eight. You kindof mentioned a few of the things you
do, but kind of walk usthrough some of the steps that took you
(38:15):
to law school, to grad schoolto traveling and bring us up to currentin
and where you are today. Soand I have to ask, like,
were you one of those students thatvisited the Career Planning Center senior year and
just sort of had that advisor breakit down for you or did you just
kind of build a plane and flyat once you cleared Hamilton, New York.
(38:36):
I just built a plan and IColgate was the pace where I was
the most support We had the mostsupportive students of color. I thought that
was the norm. After I leftColgate, people became people were everyone I
met was going selfish, Like Colgatewas like when you wanted to do something
like this happened, They're like,okay, I'll go meet with you,
(38:58):
I'll go do this, and theysaid and were supportive. That support ended
at the moment I left COVID.So looking back, COVID was the most
supportive environment I've ever been in,where people had their back and they were
interested in fighting a struggle and makinga change. I don't know what happened
after that, if people get getso scared, but so that it didn't
(39:22):
happen after COVID. So after whenI was at COVID, I wanted to
be a lawyer and I wanted tohelp, and I went straight to law
school. Then when I realized thatso many people were not like a lot
of my clients were needed an education, I went to get a master's in
(39:43):
early childhood and I wanted to opena school because I just think if we
I think education is a cure allfor everything, if we get the right
thing in place, and if wespend more money on our children. So
law school regres school followed right right. No, no, no, no,
I went now, grad school followedright away. Then after I was
(40:05):
practicing for like seven years, Irealized that I needed to go. So
it was a really it was abig commitment because I would work nine to
five, go to school like sixto nine, come home, and then
sometime I had to do night court. A night code was five to one.
So it was a grueling schedule.Then I had This was back in
(40:27):
New York City. Yeah, Andback in New Yorkity. I went to
Brooklyn College for my grad Then Iwent to al Beney for my law school.
Then they wanted me to work withI was one of only two people
who are not teachers in the Bastardsprogram because everyone else was a teacher for
the early child. Then they wantedme to work with three children or group
(40:47):
like four children, and they wantedme to do it like three days a
week the same group. And Iwas like, oh am, I god
do it when I have a job. So I went to this the school
near the courthouse, and I said, I went to the Prince. I
(41:08):
went there and they were like,no, we can't let you in like
that. And as I was walkinga teacher came was walking and she said,
you know what, I went toyour I went to Brooklyn College.
I will let you come work withthe school. So I went, got
fingerprinted, got my arm the testfor what's that? What did? I
(41:30):
do? Two TV tests? AndI started working with her and three days
a week I had to come.Then they said I needed to do student
teach it for a semester. SoI had to take an unpaid leave for
my job, and I went.They didn't want to give it to me,
so I had to fight to getit. And then I did six
months unpaid. And then I didthat and loved it. And then I
(41:54):
finished my paper and I had todo my thesis, you know and stuff.
And then I did that, andthen in the meantime, I just
I think traveling you learn more thanin school, and it just gives you
a broader perspective and you get tolearn a lot from people. So then
I started traveling. Then after thatthen I will open my own practice.
(42:16):
So I'm self employed. Now,okay, I was traveling related to anything
legal in education or that was justyour That was just something for me to
do. I think in the beginningwas a way to deal with the stress.
It was like and also part ofmy education because I like to see
different systems and talk to different people. So I remember I was in Norway
(42:39):
and I was sitting in a cafeand this woman came to sit beside me,
and I was asking her about herlike her system there in terms of
children, who you know, andshe said she was telling me about the
they have orphanages there, and shesaid, you know, you're the only
American have met who listen to whatI said about often And I didn't make
(43:02):
a bit, didn't put it down. You're so different. And I said,
well, I like to find anew system, and none of them
is perfect. She said, everyone'slike orphanage. That's the worst thing ever.
But she said, you listen,you ask questions, and you talk
to me about it. She said, I've never met anyone like you who
didn't put it down. So soyou know, I talk to different people.
(43:24):
I'll go to the local cafe andsit down and I'll sit on the
dirt dirt thing and little stool andjust talk to different people. And that
so my education continues because you'll learnso much from different things. If I
can, I'll go to a schooland see how it works, you know,
(43:45):
and different thing. I've not goneto a prison, but to see
how it work. But I'll askpeople about their prison system. We give
out the worst, that the most, the longest sentence, yes, and
then we'll get I mean, it'sridiculous. And then for the young,
(44:06):
like we'll give a sixteen year oldlife with a parole. I mean,
what's the incentive. I don't care. I mean the brain is not fully
develop at that aid for you todo it, and you know, for
them to understand, and you haveto look at the reason why they do
stuff at that age. And that'swhy mental health is on the rise.
That's why we have more suicides whenyou look at it. So I always
(44:30):
try. They'll think, at myjob, I'm a softy, but no,
we have to learn to listen tothem and try to do it.
So so so now I have myown practice and I still do. My
cases are usually from the city onthe state that they get assigned, and
I do a lot of mostly families. So I deal with when they take
their children away, and you know, for because they will take a child
(44:54):
away, they will take a childfrom the mother, say for educational the
because one of them, and they'llput them in a home, and they
don't tell the people in the homethe new the foster pearan. They don't
give them the paperwork to send themto school, so they're not going to
school anyway. And I think alot of times when they remove a child,
(45:19):
they can provide the services in thehome and keep the family intact.
And I just think that if wethe parents do love their children for the
most pile, I'm not talking aboutwhere you burn your kid or you beat
them after that, I'm not talkingabout those cases, they need to be
removed, but most times they cankeep them, like if the house is
(45:42):
dirty, first of all, dirtyhouse is objective, and if you can
keep them in the home, providea food, provide a housekeep and all
these things and just let the kidsbe happy. Because they'll remove four children,
put them in different homes. Sothe child is removed from his mother,
he is removed from his siblings thathe knows, the house that he
(46:06):
knows, his mother, the school, the neighborhood. How do you expect
him to do well? And thenthe services that they give them is not
run by usually I run by notpeople of color who understand the cultural dynamics
of it. So all of thosethings just makes it I feel very passionate
(46:29):
about this, and all of itmakes it harder for them to survive.
And then they will send them itcould be a Brooklyn case, they'll send
to do parenting in Staten Island,and then they will send them to do
something else another place. You shouldtry to put it in the same location,
(46:50):
you know, yes, and it'shard, you know, so you
have to try to put it tomake it easier for them to do it.
And then they will try to terminatetheir which is like a death sentence
of family court, and you know, just just can't imagine you gave birth
to the child, even if it'slike your niece or never you a French
child who you spend time with.It will be hard if they terminated you.
(47:14):
You can't get to see them.Well, thank you for continuing to
advocate for our community, for ourfamilies, for our young people and giving
them a chance, because it's wecan't reach them all, but those that
we do reach and those that wedo impact, thank you. Thank you.
If you're a business looking to getyour brand in front of a loyal,
(47:37):
supportive, successful market, you needto become a sponsor of Aftergate.
Our network recognizes the opportunity to workwith cod Gates, a lum of color,
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(47:59):
Contact us at info at godofirelife dotcom. Every week professionals of color,
ranging from politicians to educators, tojudges, to entrepreneurs, to lawyers,
corporate leaders, and even retirees.After Gate reaches an array of successful bipod
listeners. Contact us to learn moreabout how we can benefit You would love
(48:23):
to get a sense of your perspective, right like when you think about who
you were going into Kogate. Ifyou had the opportunity to offer some words
of advice to that Winsdom at theage of eighteen, what would be some
words of advice you would offer thatwinsome. And also, if you can
(48:45):
think about the Winsom that was leavingKolgate and offer some words of advice to
that young lady, what would bethe words of advice you would offer that
twenty one to twenty two year oldwho was graduating Kogate. So eighteen I
will say it's going to be allright, and twenty one is like keep
(49:05):
on fighting, keep on fighting.Love it, love it, love it,
love it, love it. Sobefore we get out of here,
would love to give you a chanceto share any initiative, website, any
pause that you would love our listenersto learn more about support for. I
(49:30):
mean, part of why we dothis is so that we can get our
listener galvanized and leverage the AOC networkto support some of the things that other
AOC are doing. So if there'sany website or cause that you would say,
hey, please do me a favorite, check this out or support this,
here's an opportunity to plug whatever you'dlike to plug. Well, my
(49:53):
nephew, my twenty nine year oldnephew is autistic, so I would ask
that you support any cause relating toautism. Mm hmm it is any last
words before we get out of here. One person can make a difference,
and don't think, don't it doeshave to be money. Just spend time
(50:15):
with someone. Just listen. Ifsomeone calls you at a weird hour,
just listen to them. Even ifyou just you could be talking about oh
is it raining today? That mightsave the person. It does have to
be. You don't have to talkabout what's really want on them, but
given them to your ear makes adifference. So spend time listen to someone
(50:36):
no matter what they're talking about.That will make a difference. And you
have to give your time. Youjust have to give yourself. That's the
thing. You don't have to havethe money, Just give time. It
doesn't matter to a young old Justbe a good listener. Mm hmm.
That's gonna love it that you're gonnahelp someone. Just listen to them.
(50:58):
Take the time, take the time. You shouldn't be ever too busy to
help someone. Do the good youcan. As my mom said, do
the best you can and all theways you can, for all the people
you can, as long as youas you can. Love it, love
it, love it. So thishas been another episode of after Gate season
four. Thank you to our guests, Thank you to our listeners. After
(51:21):
Gate is always powered by the thefire Life Network, so make sure you
check us out in the future onall of your favorite podcast streaming platforms.
Many more dope episodes to follow,and remember as always that the codate of
your day is not the coldgate oftoday, and it's certainly not the cold
gate of the future. Peace family. You hear that, listen closer that
(51:51):
my friend is definitely sout focus.It drowns out all the useless now as
that can clutter. They sayers don'texist, haters, smaters, the peanut
gallery. Who's that? When you'rein your zone, all that noise and
all that buzz is just elevator music. So enjoy your journey, focus on
(52:12):
your goal in basque and the choiretrole that is progressing. Because when it's
your time to shoot that shot,spit that verse, or close that deal,
the only voice that matters is yours, the firelight
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