Ep. 36: Dollars and Sense

The Arizona State Game Commission recently passed a rule to eliminate the practice of auctioning off select tags for big game species as a tool to raise money for conservation. Many people are concerned the reduction in conservation dollars will have a negative impact on wildlife in the state. Some advocates commend the commission in Arizona for their ongoing commitment to adhering to the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation and respecting wildlife as a public trust resource. In this episode, Jesse Deubel talks with Michael Cravens of the Arizona Wildlife Federation to discuss the nuances surrounding this recent rule change. They also talk about ongoing efforts in the Arizona state legislature to take public lands from public hands. Jesse and Michael compare and contrast the conservation issues in their respective, neighboring states. This is a great conversation between two friends and colleagues who work tirelessly to overcome the challenges that threaten the future of hunting, fishing and outdoor recreation on public lands. Enjoy the listen!  

For more info:
Arizona Wildlife Federation
NMWF

Episode Transcript

(00:05):
The New Mexico Wildlife Federation presents theAHIVA Podcast. Hello everybody, welcome back
to another episode. This being theApril first, twenty twenty four episode of
the AIVA Podcast. This is goingto be it's gonna be a really interesting
episode because we're going to be talkingwith Michael Cravens, who works for the

(00:27):
Arizona Wildlife Federation. Michael Cravens isa good friend of mine and a colleague
of sorts. We'll talk a littlebit about what that dynamic looks like and
that colleague relationship. But before wejump into that, Michael, why don't
you let our listeners know a littlebit about you, how you came into
working for conservation and what you dowith the Arizona Wildlife Federation. Sure,

(00:48):
thanks, Jesse, and thanks forhaving me here. I appreciate the opportunity
to be on your show. Soyeah, like you said, my name
is Michael Cravens, and I workas the Advocacy and conservation director of the
Arizona Wildlife Federation. I've been doingthat for about five years now. I
also serve as the vice chair forour Arizona chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers.

(01:11):
I come from Missouri, you know, and Missouri, especially the Ozarks
are still very near and dear tome. We've got ice cold, crystal
clear rivers flowing all over the place, full of smallmouth bass and trout,
all kinds of interesting critters of course, whitetailed deer and turkey, and you
know, I grew up with allof that stuff. But I will tell

(01:34):
you there's just something about the West, and Arizona specifically has always really interested
me. And I will say aclose second would be in New Mexico.
New Mexico is in a magical wildplace that I've always loved. But the
diversity that Arizona offers is just,you know, it's unbelievable. You know.

(01:56):
That was just recently down in theSea Cortes with my family, playing
in the surf in the morning,and by the time we got home that
evening, I had to shovel ourway into the driveway through all the snow.
So a ton of diversity out here. Granted, yeah, let's see
a Cortez is Mexico, but onlyan hour from the border, so it
kind of counts. But anyway,Yeah, you know, while I love

(02:20):
Missouri and I love the Ozarks,when I was a little kid growing up
there, I could simply go knockon farmers doors and get access to private
land to hunt and fish. Andunfortunately that's not the case anymore. It's
not the same same place it wasin my childhood. Now you have to
pay leases to hunt private property.So, you know, coming out here
and being exposed to all this habitatdiversity, all this wildlife, and all

(02:45):
of this public land, you know, it's just a no brainer. This
is this is where I've made myhome now, this is where I want
to raise my kids because I wantthem to have access to all of this.
And we make our home in Parks, Arizona. And that's uh,
folks, that would be flag Staff. We're just about fifteen miles west from
flag Staff and a small rural communityand just couldn't be happier out here.

(03:07):
But yeah, I got into thiswork simply through I mean, you know,
my entire life, I've been aone trick pony. It's always been
wildlife and outdoors, even from asa small child. But that's express expressed
itself in a variety of forms,from the start with hunting and angling,
you know, to backpacking, hiking, paddling, chasing all manner of wildlife,

(03:31):
game and non game, but reptilesand amphibians, fishes, birds all
over this country and abroad to nowsettled back in as an adult with a
young family and not a lot oftime to go chasing after everything I want
to chase after, so I prettymuch just fly fish and hot now.
But you know, this interest inwildlife, it's it's mostly manifested itself in

(03:55):
natural history and biology, which iswhere my education is then just simply through
volunteering, because as you know,Jesse, the honting and angling community is
a very rich and driven community whenit comes to boots on the ground working
for wildlife and habitat. And whenI re entered the sporting community as an

(04:19):
adult, I was blown away byhow much advocacy and work I saw in
that arena, and I jumped rightin started volunteering, and that's how I
got hooked up with Arizona Wildlife Federationand learned about the position I have now.
I will say I don't get theopportunity to flex those biology muscles very
often, but it's all policy,you know, which is not the fun

(04:43):
part, but it's an important partand I'm very proud of what I do.
Well, I'm very thankful for whatyou do, Michael, And you
know, you've done such an incrediblejob with your position at the Arizona Wildlife
Federation and everything you've contributed to thatorganization. And you know, I forget
sometimes that you're from Missouri. Asmost of our listeners know, this podcast
is produced out of Missouri. Actually, so this podcast is part of the

(05:04):
Driftwood Outdoors Network, which is runby Brandon Butler, who at one time
during his career was the executive directorof the Conservation Federation of Missouri. Now
you and I both have the pleasureof working with Tyler Schwartz, who's the
executive director of that affiliate. Someof our listeners know about this already,

(05:24):
but I'm gonna remind folks kind ofabout what the affiliate network looks like,
kind of the structure of the NationalWildlife Federation and all of their affiliates around
the country. You know, it'sunique in that it's not like Backcountry Hunters
and Anglers, which is another fantasticorganization. But Backcountry Hunters and Anglers has

(05:46):
a headquarters in Montana and then chaptersall around the country. And in Canada
and other places, and so allof the chapters essentially report to headquarters in
some form or another. And alot of organizations are structured that way Ducks
Unlimited, Rocky Mountain, Elk Foundation, Wild Cheap Foundation, on and on.
That's a pretty common structure in theNGO or non governmental organization world.

(06:12):
But the National Wildlie Federation is veryunique in that the affiliates are all completely
independent, very autonomous, and weall work together as partners of sorts,
and actually we're the ones who directthe policy. We're the one who pass
resolutions that govern the way that theNational Wildlife Federation approaches issues. So it's

(06:33):
a bottom up structure opposed to atop down type structure, which is one
of the things I really really likeabout it, and Michael in your work
and I've observed this over the years, and it's just evident in the way
you perform your duties. You're lookingout first and foremost for the wildlife in

(06:53):
the state of Arizona, and alsofor all of the people, most many
of which are hunters and anglers.Not everybody, though, but you're looking
out for all the wildlife and thenall of the people who care deeply about
that wildlife, and I feel likeI'm doing a very similar thing in New
Mexico. First and foremost, we'relooking out for the New Mexico wildlife,
hence the name of the organizations werun. But it's interesting because you and

(07:18):
I, you know, we've beenfriends a long time and we agree on
many things, but we also workin different states that have some significant differences
in the issues that we're dealing withon a day to day basis. So
even though our two states are similarin size, they're similar with regard to

(07:39):
where they are in the country geographically. We're both here in the Southwest.
We have I don't know how longthe border is between Arizona and New Mexico.
Probably close to five hundred miles,you know, four hundred miles something
like that, So we share aborder. But when I cross that border
headed west into Arizona, it's likea whole different world in a lot of

(07:59):
ways. And I'm not just talkingabout the fact that you've got suato cactuses
on your landscape and we only havethem somehow on our T shirts. Don't
ask me who. I don't knowwho puts suato cactuses on New Mexico T
shirts, but most of them haveit, even though there are no Touato
cactuses in the state. Right It'skind of an interesting observation that I've made.

(08:20):
But the politics are different, theissues you're working on are different.
There's a lot of different things goingon in Arizona, fights and battles and
policy discussions that are different than we'rehaving in New Mexico, and I wanted
to explore some of those today withyou, so we could kind of compare
and contrast the issues that you're dealingwith and the issues that the New Mexico

(08:43):
Wilde Federation's dealing with. And Ithought it would be a really interesting exercise
for our listeners to hear this discussion. So you want to talk about a
couple of the big, big thingsyou're investing your time in right now?
Sure? Sure? Uh? Imean I'll start by saying and meaning nothing

(09:05):
disparagingly against the great state of NewMexico. But but Jesse, you've literally
risen to hero status in my eyesbecause of the fights you have to fight
there. And while I would loveto be a hero someday myself, I
don't want to have those fights.It's not worth it for me. So
I admire your work and I always, uh, you know, think you're

(09:28):
on the right side of these fights. But yeah, boy, he seemed
to get have to get into alot of them though, And and that
that's you know, mostly on thewildlife side of things, you know,
and what we can get to this. But I'm very interested in in the
public land issues that you face there, because I mean that's been you know,

(09:50):
every session we have public land attacks. This year has been particularly egregious.
But before we get to that,probably ought to talk about Arizona's recent
decision to do away with auction tags. That's a hot button topic in the
sporting world right now in conservation world, and you know, it's one that

(10:11):
it's a little bit difficult for meto lay out precisely because I have mixed
feelings on the situation and personally andthen organizationally, you know, we have
affiliates that I don't want to sayare dependent on those funds because those funds
went directly back to the species onthe ground. But I guess to lay

(10:35):
it out here plainly, in Arizonawe had thirty special tags. We have
thirty special tags, so that's threeper big game species. And you know,
and also I want to be carefulhere that I've gotten a crash course
in this in the past few months. This is not an area that I've

(10:56):
worked in deeply because there was nothinghappened mean here, So forgive my my
lack of background and historical knowledge onthis stuff. But but from what's been
going on, We've got these tags, some of them are auctioned off,
some of them are raffled off.But our our big critter groups, for

(11:16):
a lack of a better way toput it, bighorn sheep, we have
Elk Society, we have analope.They would get these tags and then they
were allowed to auction them off,raffle them off. Well, these auctions
have become a very big deal,a big deal to these organizations. You

(11:37):
know, their banquets are built aroundthese these auctions. It provides them,
you know, a level of ownershipover the system, and it builds a
lot of excitement within the organization.But you know, that doesn't even compare
to the amount of money these TAtags brought in. I mean, they

(11:58):
brought in hundreds of thousands of dollars. And I don't know a lot about
other states and their systems with specialbig game tags, some call them governor's
tags. But how I understand itis Arizona was a model of how to
do it right, so meaning thatthe process was transparent. One hundred percent

(12:22):
of those funds went back to thespecies on the ground. So those organizations
again which which is several to mostof them, are affiliates of our group,
the Arizona Wildlife Federation. You know, they they were the ones that
directed where that money went. Andagain it all had to go on the

(12:43):
ground for that species. And ofcourse you also get the trickle down effect
of you know, if you're workingon mule to or habitat, you're also
benefiting all of the organisms that livein that habitat as well. But the
idea is that money is earmarked forthose species. So anyway, it was
a big deal well to our affiliategroups. So as an organization and wanting

(13:03):
to support our affiliates, we optedto advocate for no change, keep the
current system. This was pushed byour a couple of our commissioners who thought
this system and are I don't meanto say thought as in trying to apply

(13:26):
you know, it wasn't real,but an infringement on the North American model
of wildlife conservation, which you know, I would say as a whole,
the sporting community, an entirety inour country holds up because I mean it's
literally it's what provides us the opportunityto use these animals as a resource and

(13:46):
creates that that tangible connection that isso important if we want people to stand
up for wildlife and wild places,and it's literally brought most of our wildlife
back from the brink of extinction overthe over the past one hundred years.
I mean, it is a shiningmodel of success. So we want to
uphold this. Part of that modelsays that wildlife opportunity, harvest opportunities,

(14:11):
hunting opportunities should be provided to everyoneequally. Well, it's not a far
stretch to say that if we're goingto auction off these tags to the highest
bidder, you get a small groupof very, very rich folks that buy
these tags every year. So youknow, it's pretty clear to see that

(14:33):
the problem there with the North Americanmodel. With that said, you know,
there are smarter people than me,including the great Shane Mahoney who co
authored the North American model, orat least the written form of it.
And you know, I didn't hearthis from Shane, so I want to
be careful there, but I understoodthat he didn't not he did not see

(14:54):
these auction tags as an infringement.So but basically that is the problem.
These commissioners felt strongly that this wasan infringement and they did away with them.
They voted I think it was afour to one vote. The chair
commissioner Guiler, he voted to keepthem. He was concerned that there was

(15:16):
not a replacement plan for those revenuesthat are generated. And that's a big
scary thing for you know, thefolks that do this work in Arizona,
and so you know, on apersonal level, I get it, you
know, I get it. Ilike that Arizona is on the forefront,

(15:39):
you know, working along with theNorth American model and creating hunting and are
in a light that is more palatableto the general populace and in my opinion,
will keep hunting around, you know, for generations to come. That's
the idea. So, you know, on a personal note, I get

(16:02):
it. But also you know,on a personal note, I see the
problem. You know, we potentiallyjust lost a ton of money that you
know goes directly to conservation in Arizona. And you know, one of those
arguments is the fact that you know, while yes, we are giving a
couple opportunities to some very rich fellas, which admittedly it's gross, I don't

(16:25):
like the idea of rich guys buyingaccess to these massive bowls with a whole
team of guides out there a massivesheep or whatever you name the species.
It's gross. Nobody likes it.But the benefit that comes from it is
hard to argue against all that money. And it is I think very accurate
statistically to say that by selling thesespecial opportunities to just a few individuals,

(16:52):
that has created a lot more sheepon the mountain, a lot more elk
on the mountain. It's created alot more opportunity for the general public.
So I don't mean to necessarily layout my biases here, and certainly you
know, my organizational organization spaces.But it's easy to see both sides of
this, I think, and I'ma little torn on it. I think

(17:15):
in the long run, if wecan figure out ways to replace these funds
again, which is the big scarypart of this, it probably will be
to the betterment of our model ofconservation. Again, that's coming for me
personally, not my organization, butthat's kind of where we're at right now.
The vote is done, it's over. I will say, next year

(17:37):
they're going to allow one special biggame tag to be auctioned off, and
I'm very excited to see how thatgoes, because it's going to be the
last chance for at a lot ofpeople with deep pockets. So it'll be
interesting to see what that tag goesfor, you know, for each individual
species. And then after that therewill be no more auction tags. I'll
be the end of it. Yeah, Well, thanks for articulating that so

(17:57):
well, Michael, explain the nuancesof that situation. I'll tell you that
myself and a lot of people thatI'm friends with here in New Mexico have
really applauded the Commission for this decision, mostly because of what it represents from
a principal standpoint. And this iscoming from residents in a state where I

(18:18):
can't recall the last time our Commissionhas made a decision that wasn't based almost
exclusively on dollars, Like that's howwildlife in New Mexico is managed. Is
based on money, and whether it'sdecisions being made to the commission or legislation
that's being passed. I mean,we lost trapping in twenty twenty one and
I'm still I still cry myself tosleep about that at nights sometimes. But

(18:41):
you know, one of the strongestarguments to the legislature was, well,
there's not that many trappers. Lookat what the license sales were. There's
not that many trapping licenses being sold. Then they don't sell for that much
money, so we can afford tolose it. And we did. Like,
no matter what decision is being madethat affects wildlife in New Mexico,
it seems like the primary motivation isthe financial one. Now, with that

(19:03):
said, I don't know that Iwould agree that the system in Arizona violated
the North American model, because Ithink that model is largely based on the
fact that wildlife exists in the publictrust. And so if you sell an
ELK tag at auction for four hundredthousand dollars, I'm just making up numbers

(19:25):
here, it's easy to explain tothe public what that four hundred thousand dollars
does to benefit the habitat. Andthen also the elk population, and that
increased elk population has significant benefit tothe beneficiaries of the public trust, the
beneficiaries being the residence of Arizona.So I'm not sure I'm completely convinced that

(19:47):
it necessarily violated the model, althoughI can understand that argument also. But
one of the reasons we applauded itis because nearly fifty percent of New Mexico
elk tags are sold at auc tothe highest bidder, the vast majority of
those with no direct benefit to thepublic or to the wildlife species being impacted.

(20:11):
In other words, the money's notgoing directly back to the state Wildlife
agency only the tag fee is ifan elk tag in the HILA sells with
our elk private land use system fortwenty five thousand dollars, which is not
outrageous, and we just saw itthe Wild Cheap Foundation auction recently of New
Mexico bighorn sheep tag sold for sixhundred thousand dollars. Now, the purchaser

(20:36):
of that tag is probably going tohunt her up ram that exists in a
herd of bighorn in the state ofNew Mexico that has never ever been hunted
before. It's a new herd that'sbeen established on public land and it's in
New Mexico. But a New Mexicoresident will not have the opportunity to be

(20:56):
the first one to participate in ahunt for a ram that lives within that
herd. You know, consistent withthe way New Mexico does things non residents
or those with not even non residents. I shouldn't say that, because a
resident could have paid six hundred thousanddollars also, But when we have you
know, three million residents competing withthree hundred million non residents, the chances

(21:18):
of us being the highest bidder isslim to none. So but consistent with
the way New Mexico manages wildlife.Again, you know, decisions are made
based on what's going to bring inthe highest dollar amount. But when an
ELK tag is sold in the ELKprivate land use system for twenty five thousand
dollars, you know, seven hundredand eighty dollars is the tag price for
the non resident purchaser. You knowthat'll go to the New Mexico Department of

(21:42):
Game and Fish, and the othertwenty four thousand dollars in change goes to
a private landowner and the hunter who'spurchased the tag is then hunting on public
land because it's a unit wide tag. Most of the elk tags in the
Hila are So that's the system thatwe've become so frustrated with and have had

(22:07):
so many challenges trying to reform andtrying to fix that. When we see
a situation like this that happened inArizona, it's like, we can't help
but be excited for the principle thatthe decision represents. Not to say that
I don't share the nuances, thenuanced consequences that you've laid out, particularly

(22:29):
regarding how is how do we replacethat money, because you know, in
Arizona, when you've got a helicopterwater into herds of wildlife during times of
significant drought, that's an expensive project. So but very well laid out,
and I hope you don't mind mekind of sharing our reaction to something that
happened in your state. Again,reminder to the listeners, you know,

(22:52):
Arizona Wildlife Federation is not accountable.New Mexico Wildlife Federation or separate organizations seeing
things through a different lens, workvery close together and have similar mission statements,
but are dealing with different sets ofcircumstances. Yeah, you know,
absolutely, And I will say oneof the things that come comes from decisions
like this is of course, divisionof ideas and personalities on things. And

(23:18):
I like to say, you know, Arizona Wildie Federation, you know,
we're founded in sporting. You know, we were one hundred years ago.
We were formed to take wildlife managementout of the state legislature and put it
into the hands of an independent commission. And that's still the system that we
have today. But we are notwholly sporting. I mean that's you know,

(23:47):
that's where I live. That's that'swhat I go to bed at night
thinking about, It's what I wakeup thinking about. But you know,
we charge ourselves with looking at afterall wildlife, all people who enjoy the
outdoors. You know, we wewe work to create diversity in outdoors,
to you know, create ownership foreveryone with our wildlife, in our in

(24:10):
our public lands, because you know, selfishly, I want to keep them
around forever. I want to keepthem in the public's haands. I want
to keep healthy and or bust wildlifepopulations on the landscape. So we work
on both sides of the fence,and I think it's a powerful place to
be because then we can try tobuild bridges between consumptive and non consumptive user
groups, so to speak, andtrying to get everybody on the same page,
you know, pushing the right directiontogether. But it's frustrating because you

(24:33):
know, while I would say ninetypercent of the sporting organizations and work together,
and I would even say that maybefifty percent of maybe even more,
you know, sixty seventy percent ofthe more what we would call environmental groups
versus conservation groups. I hate makingthose divisions because to me, it's all

(24:56):
the same, you know. Butuh, but for the sake of conversation,
I guess we need to. Butyou know, we all work together,
we all lift each other up.And while those differences do occur,
it does not mean that just becauseyou differ on a subject, you can't
work together for the greater good andcome together on the things that you agree

(25:18):
on. And it's something that Ifind really frustrating sometimes here in Arizona with
a few groups. You know,there's there's some old school personalities and conservation
in Arizona, and these these guysjust don't like each other. But you
know, it's it's silly. Youknow, if I can, if I
can work together with a group thatyou know, might not be pro hunting

(25:40):
in all aspects for the betterment ofpublic LANs, you would think that the
sporting orgs could at least get togetheron everything, you know what I mean.
And it's it is frustrating sometimes wedon't. Fortunately we don't see a
lot of that, but there's enoughthere and a lot of times situations like
this, this tag situation, bringsout those personalities and it's unfortunate. Yeah,
well, you're exactly right that theincreased privatization comes increase increased abrasiveness between

(26:11):
various organizations. Because if you're anNGO, a critter group as you mentioned
earlier, and a huge portion ofyour fundraising annually, a huge portion of
your annual budget is a result ofa handful of e plus tags that have
been donated to you that you canthen auction off again selling to the highest
bidder. But one hundred percent ofthose proceeds minus the tag fee, is

(26:34):
going to support the nonprofit organization.Then clearly you can see why that nonprofit
is not going to get behind areform to that system, changing that system
in a way that would reduce oreliminate the privatization of those hunting opportunities.
And so when I look at Arizona, I'm usually looking at it in admiration,

(26:57):
from admiring the relationships you're able tobuild, because we have so much
division as a result of the privatizationwith other sporting groups. And I'm talking
about groups where, you know,as individuals, if we're sharing the experiences
of a hunt, or even ifwe were to share a hunt together and

(27:18):
sit around a campfire, these couldbe some of my closest friends, you
know, because we care deeply abouthunting and the adventure and the tradition and
the heritage and all of the things, even the ethics and fair chase and
all kinds of the stuff. Youknow, we're aligne. But the privatization
issue is so deep, and there'sso much money in New Mexico in particular,

(27:44):
that it creates challenges, and notjust with the other NGOs, but
with landowners. You know, itreally seems to me like just on the
surface, hunters and landowners should bethe best of friends generally speaking. I
mean, you have landowners who areare being affected by negative impacts of wildlife
sometimes on their agricultural production, whetherit's a farmer or whether it's a cattle

(28:07):
rancher running elk, and I meanrunning cows, but elka breaking fences,
elker eating forage, elker damaging watertanks, whatever you know. And you've
got hunters who, hey, wewant to hunt those elk. We want
to help you to manage that hurt, it seems like. And we all
have oftentimes similar affinity towards traditional landuses and the multiple use system of our

(28:32):
public lands, so we should befriends. But when I've observed that relationship
between landowners and hunters in Arizona,where you don't have privatization and just recently
got even less privatization, I didn'teven know you could get less, you're
so. I mean, Arizona's donesuch an unbelievable job of ensuring wildlife are
public that this last move was liketaking it a step even further, which

(28:56):
I never would have anticipated. Butit's amazing when I look at Arizona.
I mean, you could I couldgo to Yuma, Arizona in September to
hunt doves, and I would behunting private land all over the place.
I mean I'd be hunting on agriculturalfields that I'm likely not paying a single

(29:17):
dollar to trespass onto private land tohunt the public wildlife, and I would
be welcomed when I get there.Like I could go to the coffee shop
in the small town, and whenI walked in to get a cup of
coffee, the rancher or the farmerwho's sitting in the coffee shop is going
to thank me for being there andask me how the morning hunting went.
And I was hunting on his field. They'll have a dove cleaning station out

(29:38):
in front of the coffee shop.Yeah. I mean, that's so inspiring
to me. It's so invigorating tosee that. I can remember years ago,
you and I were hunting anelope jackrabbits with Jonathan O'Dell and I had
my on ex app up and I'mwalking with Jonathan and he starts crossing a
fence and I'm looking at the onyxand recognizing that we're crossing from public to

(30:02):
private as we're looking for anaalog jackrabbits. And I mentioned to Jonathan,
I said, Hey, do wehave permission to go here? And He's
like sure. I'm like, oh, you've got written permission. He's like,
well, not written, but there'sno posted signs. I'm like,
and it was just it was anon issue, it is what I'm getting
to. I mean, it wasjust like the relationship works so well,

(30:23):
and man, I just I reallydream that someday a similar type of dynamic
could exist in the state of NewMexico. I don't think it's going to
happen in my lifetime. It's goingto take a long time. Even when
the systems get reformed, even whenyou know the systems are improved, it's

(30:45):
going to take a long long timefor the bridges to be built and for
the huge I wouldn't even want tosay gap, the huge gorge that exists
currently between the different user groups tobe mended and brought together. But I
surely do hope Michael, that atsome point in the future, you know,
people recreating on public land in NewMexico are going to have a similar

(31:07):
type of dynamic with the private landneighbors. Right, Yeah, you know,
it's funny. In New Mexico.The only folks and forgive me,
you know if I'm wrong on anyof this, but as I see it,
the only folks that stand to benefitfrom the current model. Are the
overwealthy, the ones that can affordto play that game. The general populace

(31:30):
does not. And I would thinkthe general populace is makes up the majority,
the majority of folks who had benefitfrom from some reform, especially with
your elk tags of course, butpolitics tend to creep in to everything,
and even those people that are losing, they're losing because of this current system,

(31:53):
they will still you know, we'retribal species. You know, it's
hard for us to break out ofthat mental mold, and they'll advocate and
hoot and holler, you know,for the wrong side, the side that's
hurting them, and that they've gotto be such a frustrating thing to to
work. I mean, you know, we're doing the same thing with public
lands here, you know, butit's like banging your head against the wall,

(32:15):
you know. Yeah. Well,I'm really interested to get into the
public lands discussion. And before Ido that, I'll just say you're spot
on, You're exactly right, andit's extremely damaging to the future of hunting
because even again, going back,I'm living in the past here, going
back three years ago. But whenwe lost the trapping band we're not united

(32:37):
as a sporting community in this state. We don't have all the sporting groups
on the same page with things,and so what's happening is people that want
to see some of the things thatwe really enjoy and appreciate and participate and
go away. They're able to doit so much more effectively because there's not
a united front to defend against it. I'm terrified that we're gonna lose bear

(33:01):
mountain lion hunting at some point inthis state, probably first with hounds and
then probably all together. And itscares me to think about that. But
when we've run a bill to addbears and mountain lions and also hovelina,
even though I'm not as concerned aboutlosing Haelina hunting, they're not quite as

(33:21):
much of a charismatic megafauna as bearsand lions are. But when we run
a bill to add bears and lionsto the Wanton Waste statue, to really
illustrate to the general public and toillustrate to our elected and appointed officials that
there is a legitimate use. Goingback again to the North American model and
being in accordance with one of theseven tenants, we want to take wildlife

(33:43):
for legitimate use, and you andI both feasted on bears and mountain lions.
We recognize the amazing quality and nutritionof that protein source. And most
hunters in New Mexico are already takingthat meet from the field. You know,
very few people if I've never seenit, but very few people are

(34:04):
leaving a headless carcass that's skinned outon the side of a trailhead or something.
You know, it's not really happeningin practice, but I think from
a messaging standpoint, it looks reallyreally bad for the hunting community to have
a law on the books that wouldallow me to kill a barrel mountain lion
and not use all of the edibleportions of the animal. So we simply

(34:27):
wanted to add those species to theWanton waste Statute that says all edible portions
must be removed from the field.Very simple bill. Many of the outfitters
in the state and some of thelandowners in the state viewed that as an
attack on the outfitting industry and asan attack on private landowners who an attempt

(34:51):
to reduce the number of predators thatwere getting harvested. I mean the divisiveness
is so deep. I'm saying,that's not at all with this is this
is an effort to protect our abilityto continue to harvest these magnificent species,
which I care deeply about and alwayswant to see on the landscape for future
generations, but also recognize the benefitof properly managing those populations. You know,

(35:15):
that's what we're that's what we're tryingto do. But because we often
are going after the ten percent outfitterset aside, right, which means,
you know, anybody who applies inthe public draw, particularly nonresidents, if
they have a contract with an outfitter, you know, legally binding contract,

(35:36):
they get put in a separate poolwhere ten percent of all the tags are
set aside exclusively for those people withthe financial resources to contract with an outfitter.
That makes no sense to me.I mean, I don't see how
that subsidy can can be defended atall. But you know, and they
say, well, this affects ruraleconomies, and this is a way to
bolster rural you know, rural economies, rural communities, And I'm saying,

(36:02):
well, what about the gas stationowners, what about the guy that owns
the cafe, what about the motelowner. I mean, there's a lot
of other businesses in rural communities thatdepend heavily on hunters traveling to those areas
to participate in this activity. They'renot being subsidized. Why would we pick
one industry the outfitters, which mostof whom are working part time, many

(36:25):
of whom are not even New Mexicobased businesses. You don't have to be
a New Mexico outfitter to participate inthe set aside. You could be in
Michigan. It just doesn't make sense. And I'm very vocal about that,
and the New Mexico Wildlife Federation hasbeen very vocal about that. And so
we're viewed by the outfitting industry asan enemy. So even when we introduce

(36:46):
legislation that would have great benefit tothe outfitters, because the loss of baron
lyon hunting will hurt outfitters. Imean, there's not every outfitter, but
there's a lot of outfitters who dependon the pursuit of those species to help
run a successful business. So evenwhen we run legislation that will absolutely benefit

(37:07):
the outfitting industry, oftentimes they willoppose it and attack us and perceive it
as an additional attack against their industry. And so anyway, I know I'm
rambling on and on here, butit's but, but it just really emphasizes
the point that you just made.I think, yeah, I get it,

(37:28):
and I share your frustrations. Iwhen I say I get it,
it doesn't mean I understand it.I don't understand it. You know,
we want waste laws will do nothingmore than give us a tool to push
back against hunting bands. And it'sa good thing. You know, it's
a good thing in the public eye. I mean, you know how much

(37:50):
I value weld meet. I knowyou do as well. And there are
a few folks out there that thatthat don't. But you know there's the
old like, oh, how leanare inedible? You gotta make meat sticks
or trees, a lot of them. We both know it's complete and utter
bs. I can't imagine anything anythingbut good coming from, you know,

(38:15):
legally forcing those folks to take thatmeat home and cook it and eat it,
because because it is exceptional, andit's all just people repeating things they
heard their buddy say that are inaccurate, and I just it's I can't understand
it. I can't understand, youknow, someone not being able to identify

(38:36):
the value and want waste laws.I don't get it, but I certainly
commend you for for you know,pushing to do the right thing and that
in the instance. But gotta begotta be frustrating for you, I'm sure.
Yeah, But fingers crossed twenty twentyfive, we're gonna finally get that
thing across the finish line. I'mhopeful and hopeful. I wish I could
help from over here in Arizona.But you know that that wall might as

(38:58):
well be heard, that that politicallyline might as well be an ocean.
You know. Yeah, yeah,it's challenging. So we've talked about public
wildlife, you know, a lothere and again I come indo Arizona for
being so committed to upholding the NorthAmerican model of wildlife conservation, for allowing
that to be a guide as theymake decisions, and for recognizing the value

(39:20):
of keeping wildlife public and managing itfor the benefit of the residents of Oklahoma.
I mean, and again, I'mnot at all anti non resident.
I'm a non resident in forty ninestates, and I hunt in other states,
and you know, I love hostingpeople in New Mexico who come here
from other states and helping them enjoyan unbelievable experience. But I am also

(39:44):
adamant that the primary beneficiary of thepublic trust or the residents of the state,
and that's been proven in numerous courtcases over the years. But with
all that said, Public Lands Arizonais currently dealing with some significant threats to
public land across your state, andI'd love to hear you kind of educate

(40:06):
our listeners about what's going on inthat department. Sure, i'd be happy
to. I guess before I jumpinto that, let me just say one
more thing on the game tag thing, and then that's just that. While
I get it, I get thebig picture, I get why. I
just hope our commission gets it rightwith a replacement model that still benefits these

(40:30):
organizations and all of the hard workingvolunteers that are out there, boots on
the ground doing this work for wildlifeand standaloose so much from losing these funds.
I just hope they can get thatright, because if they do,
I think we'll all be all bein a great place. But yeah,
well said, with that, allright, public Lands boy, I mentioned

(40:52):
in the intro This is literally whyI live in Arizona. This is why
I bought an overpriced house, mychildren here and have access to these public
lands. And I'll tell you,man, I think a lot of folks
that live in the West don't necessarilyget it. Are the folks that were
born and raised in the West don'tnecessarily get it because they've never not had

(41:14):
it. But when I first movedout here, and I went on a
trip over into southern California to lookfor a mountain kingsnake a Zanata. But
in on that trip, I wasbrand new Arizona. We just pulled over
and camped right and I was like, wait, what, we can just
do this. We can just pullover here in camp you know, back

(41:37):
east, we had to find acampground and then pay for that privilege,
you know what I mean. Andit just blew me away. And I
just grew to appreciate the access tothese public lands more and more year after
year. And I still am inawe that this is something that we have
that we own as Americans citizens.You know, even when I was back

(42:00):
in Missouri and didn't even know Ihad it, I had it. I
owned it. You know, Ihave a brother in law back in Missouri
who's always talking about buying forty acreshere, forty acres there. I'm like,
man, just come out here,buy a house with a yard,
and you're going to own forty threepercent of Arizona because that's how much you
know, federal accessible public land wehave. And it's wonderful. I can

(42:21):
explore this the rest of my lifeand not scratch a surface. But I
would say polling shows that the vastmajority, and I wish I had the
numbers. I don't, but thevast majority of Arizonas do value are public
lands and outdoor recreation. Unfortunately,we have a small, fringe, extreme

(42:43):
group of Republicans. And that's notto make this partisan. I you know,
as an organization, I know everybodylikes to give lip service to being
a non partisan or bipartisan, butit is something that we take deadly seriously.
I work primarily with the right sideof the legislature because that's who has
the power. You know, ifit ever flips, I'll be working with

(43:06):
the left side. And I approachmy work. I have to approach my
work from the angle of everybody downthere, even the person I most vehemently
disagree with is trying to do theright thing, trying to do the thing
that they think is right for Arizona. At least that's what I tell myself
anyway. But so we got asmall group down there that really pushes these

(43:30):
anti federal land initiatives and bills andmemorials and resolutions, a lot of which
are not even born in Arizona.They're coming from Mike Lee and those those
guys up in Utah. You know, there's organized groups whose main soul function
is to take take our lands awayfrom us as American citizens, give them

(43:57):
back to the states, and thenthey become private they don't belong to us
anymore. So there's a few ofthese guys down there, and it's it's
extremely disheartening, especially this session.Every session we have a few bad bills,
right with a couple of people signedon to them. This year,
depending on your level of importance,we had ten, which is a lot.

(44:19):
And not only did they introduce tenbills, they introduced all but one
of them on the last day youcould introduce bills and then move them into
the very first committee to be heard. So we had like four days,
you know, to organize opposition andI will say that they had they had
had I'm assuming they had pre preplanned all this because they had a lot

(44:46):
of folks signed on in support ofthese bills like overnight, way quicker than
folks could have even known about it. So it was very sneaky, very
shady how they did this. Andyou know, unfortunately we live in partisan
times. Pretty much everything passes alongparty lines in Arizona with a very few

(45:07):
exceptions, and it's frustrating because youknow, we'll have these bills like,
for instance, we did have acouple of these bills die. They were
both against conservation easements and Jesse,you know all the good work that comes
out of conservation easements, those relationshipsbetween private landowners and agencies and for the

(45:28):
betterment of wildlife. You know,for instance, our successes and recovery soon
or in Prong Hornet southern Arizona couldnot have been done without conservation easements.
So one particular representative, she rantwo anti conservation easement bills, one of
which was a landowner needed to makepayments in lieu of tax lost tax revenue.

(45:50):
The other one was a property ownerwith the conservation easement had to maintain
that easement free of noxious weeds,which on the surface sounds all right,
that's reasonable, nobody likes exotics,invasive noxious weeds. But the reality of
it was our noxious weed list includescheek grass, bunch grass, those little
yellows, some kind of camameal flourthat's an exotic invasive that blankets of snoring

(46:15):
desert. Basically, it would havemade it impossible to maintain these areas free
of these these invasives that have unfortunately, you know, really covered covered the
southwestern United States. So it wasnot a bill that was intent on getting
rid of invasive weeds. It wasa bill that was intent as a roadblock
to conservation easements. Why how Ican't even begin to understand why someone would

(46:38):
take issues with conservation easements. Butfortunately both of those bills died I would
imagine because of private property issues,unfortunately not probably not because of advocacy through
conservation circles. That doesn't mean thatwe certainly worked hard at it, but
they did die on the flow wellon one died in Senate Committee, Natural

(47:01):
Resourceal, Energy, and Water Committee. The other one died on the House
floor. But what is so frustrating, Jesse is you'll go down to these
committee hearings, right, and thenthis is supposed to be a small group
of legislators that are you know,quote unquote experts in those areas, and
you'll have this conservation easement bill anda lot of these folks on these committees

(47:23):
consider themselves advocates for the sporting community, sportsmen and women themselves, and conservationists.
But yet, you know, eventhis even went. You know,
since a lot of this I thinkthese conservation easement deals were based on lost
tax revenue. A county assessor fromone of the counties in Arizona showed up

(47:44):
and did an eloquent job of layingout, hey, most of these properties
come in below market value. Oncethese easements are put in place, it
increases the value of these properties,which increases the tax revenue off of them.
Even whenever it's laid out that clean, that clear proven that this is
a bad bill. No matter whatangle you come at it from, they're

(48:06):
still going to vote along party lines. Again, a lot of these people
consider themselves conservationists. It's so frustrating. It's why do we even have this
system. Why are we wasting everyone'stime, wasting everyone's money. If this
is how you're going to behave.But you know, I think a lot
of that comes from Unfortunately, duringour last presidential election, anyone who stood

(48:30):
up on the Republican side and said, hey, this was a fair election
was censured by their party. Sonow to stick your neck out and vote
against your party, you know,is kind kind of career suicide, unfortunately.
But but this is a system thatwe're dealing with here in Arizona.
While you guys have your problems,ours are you know, ours is in

(48:51):
the legislature. You know, we'rea very divided legislature. I will give
you another example. Our Arizona scene, a trail. National san trail stretches
all the way across the state.I mean, it is an icon that
should be held up as something thatwe pride ourselves on and a great success
story for Arizona. They had abill that was being sponsored by one of

(49:15):
our Republican senators and it's as anappropriation for funding for that trail. It
was struck through because the Arizona TrailAssociation advocated against all these bad public land
bills that we have have today thatwe're dealing again with. So that's just

(49:39):
that's the mentality we're dealing with downthere. It's so divided unfortunately, So
you know, and I don't know, I would say there's there's some of
them are bills that I don't expectsome of these folks get behind. For
instance, you know, there wasa big fight over our new Grand Canyon
National Monument. And I'll I'll say, from an organizational perspective, fifteen years

(50:01):
ago, we opposed that monument.We thought it was too large and encompassed
like half a million acres that alreadyhad the protections that we wanted from that
monument. But this time it wasan appropriate even though it's still a million
acres, it was a much moreappropriate size. We advocated. We even

(50:22):
participated in writing the legislation that allowedhunt hunting and angling access and kept that
as a as a value to beprotected within the monument. You know,
we still have cattle grazing on themonument, we still have firewood cutting,
and so basically we're taking one layerof federal protection or is federal land right

(50:42):
BLM and US for our service,and we're taking that and creating this monument.
So you have all these guys downthere screaming, oh, it's a
federal land grabs like, no,it was federal land. It's still federal
land. We still can do allof the stuff that we love. And
all we're doing is excluding you know, foreign mining interest. That's pretty much

(51:07):
it. You know, I don'tunderstand why why can't anybody get behind that.
You know, we're not it's nota national threat due to loss of
uranium. That uranium is always goingto be there. It's in the ground,
it's in the bank. You couldsay, there's plenty of uranium elsewhere
that be mined outside of this reallyspecial place. You know, that's not

(51:27):
only special to the tribes that liveup there, but to hunters and english
That is the number one mule deerheard in our nation. And you know
is as much as we need tomake the transition to clean energy. You
know, that's prime real estate forsolar fields and when in wind farms,

(51:49):
which would completely fragment that habitat andchop it up. So we are protected
from that now. I you know, overall, we did get the sporting
community behind it, and that that'sa good thing. But you know again
that that fringe group of the legislature. Boy, they're they're angry about it.
You know, so we had acouple of oils in there regarding the
Antiquities Act as well as that monumentspecifically, man all of those false narratives

(52:17):
surrounding that that monument designation. Youcan just change the Grand Canyon National Monument
with Membrous Peaks National Monument, andI hear the exact same arguments. We
literally had a legislator show up incommittee saying, oh, they put that
monument there so they could fill itup full of clean energy projects. Like
no, no, there's no energyprojects, clean or otherwise allowed in that

(52:39):
monument. That's why we did it. So is you know, when you
get involved in local politics at thestate level, and you know, you
get down there, even not beingan expert on all the things, and
you still catch just blatant misinformation comingfrom both sides of the aisle. It
is shocking. I mean quite scary, honestly, Jesse. It really is.

(53:00):
And what it does is it emphasizesthe importance of people like you and
the Arizona Wildlife Federation and your affiliateswho spend the time and the money and
the energy to have staff members andvolunteers at the state legislature fighting to set
the record straight fighting to get decisionsmade based on factual information instead of these

(53:24):
completely spun political narratives that are superlight on facts and super heavy on emotions.
And it's sometimes funny when we're atcommittee hearing about something and you have
someone from the far left generally who'sworking on some kind of environmental protection and

(53:45):
a lot of these folks in somecases may not agree with the idea of
hunting wildlife. And I'm in meetingswith these folks all the time, and
I have someone on the far rightwho jumps in and says, you can't
make the decisions based on emotions.It can't be emotional. Why don't we
use science? Why don't we usefacts? And that same person in the

(54:06):
next Public Lands advacy campaign is showingup with so much emotion and no science
and no facts. It's like,hey, can we be consistent because I
agree science and facts, that's important, those things facts. When they agree
with your own agenda, you know, it's a yeah, it's funny stuff.
But again, the key takeaway hereis that your organization and others like

(54:30):
yours are doing unbelievable work, superimportant work, and I really, you
know, want the general public andthe hunting and angling community in particular,
to recognize how critical that advocacy isfor the continuance of this thing they love
and they've got us. The peoplehave got to step up and provide support,

(54:51):
whether that's in the form of volunteerhours or sending in little money,
writing a check, sharing some qualityinformation on social media. There's a lot
of ways people can help. Soso important that the people who benefit from
the work that you're doing reciprocate withsome support for the organization. Yeah,
it's tough, you know, becausea lot of these bills are kind of

(55:15):
death by a thousand cuts. They'repicking away at little bits of things.
So, for for instance, onein this one, we've had to fight
against several sessions in a row.But it would require a private land owner
to obtain permission from the state legislaturebefore he sells any part of his land
to the federal government. Now Herein Arizona we have multiple positive cases where

(55:38):
a landowner has done exactly that andit's just opened. It sold enough land
to build a parking lot, putsome signogen and allow access to otherwise,
you know, thousands of acres thatwere landlocked. You know that one little
bit of private property that went tothe federal government. Literally one hunter accessing

(56:00):
that, you know, with hisgas and his equipment and food expenditures make
up for that tiny, tiny bitof lost tax revenue. But again,
these are like just little things,so it's sometimes it's hard. They almost
did us a favor giving us allof these bills at once in the at

(56:20):
first, because then it could belike whoa, look at this. But
now they're slowly trickling their way throughand it makes it harder. I mean,
people get fatigued, you know,they get excited about something, but
people have jobs and lives and they'rebusy, so it's hard to keep them
engaged through that whole process and killsome of these bills. I will also
add it's sometimes tough to get peopleriled up on memorials and resolutions. So

(56:43):
no memorial or resolution, it's nota bill, It has no actionable item.
It is basically a letter to outof the White House and to our
congress people. And in this case, it is a letter that says Arizonas
don't don't give a hell about ourpublic lands, which we know is not
true, but that's the letter they'resending on a personal level. I don't

(57:05):
like that. I don't want anyone, you know, telling and telling my
federal government that I don't care aboutmy public lands and I want them given
away to somebody else. And italso what scares me is there's going to
be a time when the right peopleare in the right place to really drive
this land transfer movement home. Andwhen they do, they're going to have

(57:25):
a mountain of resolutions and memorials thatthey have passed that say, hey,
look at this mountain of evidence.This is what Arizona wants and we don't
want that. And so I takethese very seriously, and I think people
need to engage on them and telltheir representatives and their senators that hey,
this is not this is not howI feel. You know, these public

(57:47):
lands belong to me, and Idon't want you giving them away to anybody
else. So, but a lotof people don't take take those seriously,
and I really think they should.Yeah, great point. So what's the
timeframe in your state legislature? Soundslike the legislative session is still in process
right now. Yeah, the committeeshave all shut down. All bills have
been hurting committees. The last ofthe bills we're working on are on their

(58:09):
way to the Senate floor, whichcould be anytime this week. So unfortunately,
when when does this session end,I don't have that number in front
of me, Jesse. I meanit's gonna it's gonna end when the you
know, when when the budget issettled, and they're already talking right now
on going on a spring break beforethey come back and work on the budget,
so it could be a while.We do have a thoughtful, conservation

(58:32):
minded governor at the moment, sowe're really hoping that some of these bills
that do slip through, we'll getvetoed in the end. But you know,
unfortunately, you know, no onecan stop those memorials, those messages
to the White House, and thosemessages to our congress people, those get
through. They never see the governor'sdesk. Yeah, well, you know,

(58:52):
I'm not super familiar with your legislativeprocess. Our session is over this
year. It was a short,thirty day budget session. Every state does
their legislative sessions a little bit differently. But I just want to provide a
testimonial about the unbelievable work that I'vepersonally witnessed by the Arizona Wildlife Federation at

(59:13):
your state capital. It's been afew years ago, right before COVID,
Actually right at the start of COVID, I think it was twenty What year
was that, twenty nineteen or twentytwenty was right at the beginning, that's
right. In any case, Iwent out there to participate in your cameo
at the Capitol event and it wasone of the And I've also participated in
wyomings and I try to do mybest to support affiliates across the West whenever

(59:36):
I'm able to, and that wasone of the most impressive cameo at the
capitals I've been to you. Allyour affiliates are out there, the Anelope
Group and tro Out Unlimited and everybodyputting on incredible demonstrations for your elected officials,
for your state lawmakers. But Ithink what really resonated with me the
most from that event was the wildgame like tasting buffet, if you want

(59:59):
to call it that, at anentire area in front of the Capitol building
with all kinds of unbelievable preparations ofharvested wildlife from Arizona's public lands to share
with your state lawmakers. And thatwas powerful, I thought, and I
talked to a number of legislators thatday and their reaction was really positive,

(01:00:22):
and that made a huge impact.And so for anyone listening who thinks sometimes
like that our presence as advocates atour state capitol doesn't matter, or that
they don't listen to us, andsometimes they don't, like you said,
sometimes it's party line and it seemslike no matter what you do, it's
hard to break out of that mold. But it's a fight worth fighting.

(01:00:43):
And even when we don't see theimpact of our presence there, I want
to tell you it's important and Iappreciate you doing it well. I'll tell
you what, Jesse, that eventhas just gotten bigger and better since since
your visit. And it's particularly frustratingbecause I will say, because of that
event, our legislature knows Arizona SportingCommunity, they know Arizona Wildlife Federation,

(01:01:10):
they know all of the groups thatattend that event and participate, and some
of the most regular guest legislators downthere that come every year that enjoy the
event consider themselves jubilant supporters of thesporting community. Several of them are signed

(01:01:34):
on to these bad public land bills. So you know, it's especially frustrating
because I feel like, especially thisyear, we did a lot of good
work down there, created a lotof good relationships, and then to turn
around and see these same folks signedout of these bills as really frustrating.
So next year, you know,those conversations are going to be a bit
more poignant. I think that,like we talked about before, you can

(01:01:57):
disagree and still, you know,maintain working relationships for for the good.
So yes, I still intend towork closely with maintain positive relationships, but
I'm going to be a bit moreaggressive in the messaging moving forward because that
was really disheartening to see this year. Yeah, I've I've faced similar experiences

(01:02:17):
where I build a solid relationship andthen I feel like a lawmaker kind of
does me dirty on a vote oron support for something, and it comes
to surprise. And I think it'simportant that we also have accountability, you
know, even when we have astrong relationship, you know, we support
them when they do the right thingand have to hold them accountable when they

(01:02:40):
violate our trust. Yeah, yeah, you know, unfortunately we're not the
only ones down there trying to influenceThem's there's a lot more powerful folks in
this coming from the sporting community thanthat have influence over these guys as well,
guys and gals, I should say. But yeah, it's frustrating.
But you know you mentioned the buffetthe game, but that's one of my
favorite parts of that event. Youknow, we've servened at Lyon on several

(01:03:05):
occasions. I served over fifty Bobcatto Molly's. Not this year, but
I'm sorry, not last year,but the previous year or two. You
know that many legislators and staff andI thought it was great because not one
person turned their nose up to itor even made a funny face. You
know, everybody enjoyed it so andthat sort of thing goes a long way
when it comes to pushing back againsthunting bands as well. I guess people

(01:03:27):
listening this to this should also knowthat you're a two time Wild Game Cookoff
champion. I think right at theBHA one time. One time, I
think we got second the next time. Yeah, okay, well, well
you're definitely way up there when itcomes to your your culinary skills, and
you've made a name for yourself amongthe wild game cooking enthusiasts across the country

(01:03:50):
for sure. So speaking of cookingculinary things, you're also a pretty avid
mushroom hunter. Have the morals startedto pop in Arizona yet, are still
too early? Well, I'm notthe right person to ask about that,
because last year was the first yearI found in Arizona morrel. It's it's
not like it is back East.Back East, I had spots that had
every spring and just cash in,But no in Arizona. And I know

(01:04:13):
New Mexico, you guys get alot more than we do in Arizona.
We have to have the perfect stormof conditions. And last year that did
hit and and folks were finding them, but years previous to that and they,
you know, it was a veryrandom occurrence whenever when one would pop
up. So they're just they're justso sparse here that people unless you have
one of those special years, peopledon't put a lot of effort into them.

(01:04:35):
Yeah, here it's kind of similarto New Mexico. I think we
do have more, but it alsotakes the right set of conditions in order
to really have a bountiful moral season. And of course one of the most
important conditions is moisture and the timingof that moisture. With that in mind,
Michael can and I don't want tokeep you on a whole lot longer
because you've already invested an hour ofyour valuable time on this thing. But

(01:04:56):
and I appreciate that very much,But I'm curious what your take is on
the water situation in Arizona. Imean, how are things with water.
I saw something on a headline recentlythat was talking about the situation where you
have you know, investors from theMiddle East who are growing alfalfa in Arizona,
which is you and I talked aboutthat years ago. But to me,

(01:05:19):
that's a whole fascinating dynamic. That'sjust in a state that's so arid,
where water is such a precious resource. It's an interesting issue. But
anything any comments you have about theArizona water situation, you know, it's
always interesting here in Arizona because wedo have limited water. And yeah,
that particular case you were talking aboutwas I believe Saudi's had alfalfa farms.

(01:05:41):
Alfalfa is an extremely water hungry plant, uses a lot of water, so
you know, fortunately and unfortunately inthis situation, one thing that will get
the right and the left side ofour legislature together is a Middle Eastern country
using our water. So you know, we have Canadians using our water too,

(01:06:04):
but nobody's raising for us about themthat this was an egregious uh use
of our groundwater, although there aremany others, but yeah, that was
that was put a stop to,and I think those leases were not renewed
as far as I understand, youknow. And then of course we've got
the the WOTAS decision based on onthe Sacket versus Supreme Court case, and

(01:06:27):
that has left potentially left a lotof our otherwise protected water ways unprotected.
And you know, it's it's it'sa strange deal in the Southwest because WOTAS,
you know, is it says whatis protected and what is not protected
waters of the United States, Ishould say, And that's primarily based on

(01:06:49):
the situation out east, where it'sdefinable. You know, you can draw
lines out here in the West,it's not so simple because our rivers don't
not necessarily flow year round. Soit's we're yet to see, you know
what those holes in woe to uswith with the what but the potential harm

(01:07:11):
could come from that. But thereare concerns there about getting some some potentially
better state better state level protections putin place to help make up for those
those losses. But you know,it's it's something I'm still learning about and
still trying to wrap my head around. And you know how this is going

(01:07:31):
to impact us physically, you know, on the ground or underground in case
of water here in our state.But but yeah, you know what water
is always I'm not a water expert. I lean heavily on others, including
AUTUBN Southwest has a water expert thatI lean heavily on when it comes to
this kind of work. But yeah, it's always a hot button topic in

(01:07:53):
the state in conservation circles and downthe legislature. Lots of water bills running
all the time, almost too muchkeep up with almost Yeah, yeah,
I can imagine. Well, Isure love following your adventures, Michael,
all of your fishing challenges. Youknow, you go on the trout challenges
and try to catch all the differentspecies, and you do it from Missouri
into Arizona. And you know,for those that don't know, you're an

(01:08:19):
unbelievable herpetologist. You know, you'realways helped me with all of my questions
regarding all things reptile. But theother thing that you do really really well
is promote the small game hunting opportunityand utilizing that opportunity to introduce young people
like your son, for example,and daughter into the outdoor space and into

(01:08:40):
the activities that involve a connection withnature and natural habitats and wildlife and public
lands, and then provide that kindof culinary cherry on top, so to
speak, when it comes to preparingall that. So just a quick plug
for the World Championship Squirrel Cookoff.I'll certainly be there again this year.
I went last year for the firsttime, one of the most incredible events

(01:09:02):
I've ever been to. I wasso impressed. It'll be in Springdale,
Arkansas, September seventh this year.I won't be competing in the cookoff.
I'm not quite ready to take thatchallenge just yet, but I will be
there supporting the event. Oh man, I can't believe the talent that shows

(01:09:23):
up to compete in that event.So for all of the listeners, and
Michael, for you, if there'sany way you can make it to that.
I know Springdale, Arkansas is alwaysaway, but there's an airport X
and A. It's like Northwest ArkansasRegional Airport, easy to fly into,
pretty inexpensive, It's worth the trip. Tons of fun, man, Yeah,
I've always wanted to attend that event. You know, one of my

(01:09:45):
favorite events we have here in Arizonais our family Squirrel Camp, which you
ought to come over for sometime.It's fun. But that started with I
was teaching biology in a Phoenix highschool and one of the kids was taken
out every year for a week forhis family squirrel camp. And this was
before I had children. I justthought that was the coolest thing I'd ever
heard of, right, So Itold myself when when I had kids,

(01:10:08):
I was gonna have my own familysquirrel camp every year. So sure enough,
had some kids started my family SquirrelCamp, and that soon turned into
a back country Hunters and Anglers familySquirrel Camp, and now that it's also
incorporated Arizona Wildlife Federation, so it'sjust gotten bigger and better every year.
And you know, I tell folksthat it's absolutely suitable for young children in

(01:10:28):
a safe place to bring them.But it's also grown up enough that we
were doing plenty of whiskey around thecampfire and just have a great time.
But Yeah, the small game thingI just never out don't. I don't
even like saying that because I don'tthink it's something should up grow. But
you know, we got a lotof a lot of hunters here in Arizona
that, you know, complain andcry about not drawing tags, you know,

(01:10:49):
I mean, we have more huntersthan we have. You know,
bull elk to be shot, soit's a lottery system. Speaking of which,
I did draw a later season bullelk tag this year, very excited
about. But thank you, thankyou. But man, there's so much
opportunity here. If I don't drawa single tag, I still don't have

(01:11:11):
enough time to do everything I wantto do. You know, we have
plenty of voting, over the counteropportunities, plenty of birds, waterfowl,
small game. I mean, it'sjust opportunity is abundant in Arizona if you're
willing to take it. Yeah.I love hearing that, and I love
hearing and following the Family Squirrel Camp. That's definitely an event I need to
attend. And along those same lines, when I was at the squirld Championship

(01:11:32):
Squirrel Cookoff last year, I meta couple of kids, actually they weren't.
They were now young adults, probablymaybe late teens, early twenties,
but since the very beginning, sincethe first event that had ever happened.
Their job, their contribution to theevent was for weeks and weeks leading up
to the event, these two youngmen would go out and then they were

(01:11:53):
kids and hunt squirrels for all ofthe competitors who were coming in that would
have too many challenges bringing squirrels fromfar away places, you know, as
far away as other countries coming andtraveling using the airlines to get to the
event, and so for any chefsthat were competing in the event and needed
squirrels, these young kids job,essentially as volunteers was to make sure that

(01:12:15):
there was an adequate supply of squirrelsfor all of the chefs that needed them.
And it's amazing because as part oftheir responsibility they had to execute perfect
shots on these squirrels because it woulddisadvantage one chef from another if you're dealing
with animals that are, you know, shot with various shot placements, opposed

(01:12:35):
to having a consistent shot placement,you know, with a twenty two rifle
on every squirrel that's used in theCookoff. So talking to those young men
and hearing about how this particular eventhas kind of helped to shape their life
and their connection to public lands andpublic wildlife and all of these things was

(01:12:57):
just it was so inspiring. Itwas really really fair fantastic. But Michael,
I can't I can't thank you enoughfor everything you do. And you've
got a podcast of your own.Why don't you you tell folks where they
can find you for your podcast,any social media whatever. Man, let
people know where they can learn moreabout you and your great work. Sure
you got it, Thanks Jesse.Yeah, I do a podcast for the
Arizona Wildlife Federation. You know.We cover a lot of topics. Most

(01:13:21):
recently I covered lion hunting and houndhunting. I talked about predator hunting recently.
One of the shows I'm most proudof is a natural History of the
Jaguar in Arizona, because there's veryfew published sources of information on these animals
in the state. So I'm reallyproud of that one. All kinds of

(01:13:43):
things, you know. I mean, since I'm the host, it leans
heavily on fly fishing and hunting,but we cover a lot of things,
you know, recently, I dida show with a couple pollinator biologists that
was absolutely fascinating. I mean,these men were just so knowledgeable it blew
me away. So we cover alot of topics. I'm now bringing on
my cohort Trica on one of Tricais our programs director and she's gonna start

(01:14:09):
doing shows as well. So you'rebeginning shows from the both of us,
and I think it'll make it morebalanced and in line with what Arizona Wildlife
Federation is and the kind of workthat we do. So still lots of
hunting and fly fishing content for me, but you'll also beginning a more variety
from Trica as well. But yeah, it's it's it's it's a lot of
fun. It's simply the Arizona WildlifeFederation podcast. You can find that by

(01:14:30):
simply going to our website, youknow, by googling Arizona Wildlife Federation or
you can, yeah, you getit anywhere that you get your podcasts,
Spotify, Apple, whatever. Butit's a lot of fun. I will
say, if I can plug this, we are hiring an advocacy coordinator,
you know, our our We've outgrownmy capacity to get all the work done

(01:14:55):
that we need to do, sowe're hiring someone. So if anyone over
in New Mexico we would like tolike to take that on. I can
tell you it's uh. It's agreat organization to work for. We have
a great executive director. You havea lot of freedom, ample time off
because we all like to play inthe outdoors. Just a really good work
environment. It's important work. Sothat job description can also be found on

(01:15:17):
our website. You can reach outto me personally at Michael at as wildlife
dot org. And you mentioned socialI do face. Honestly, I just
stay on Facebook because of old friendsand family. I don't do much there.
Most of the outdoor stuff and workstuff will go on Instagram and that
is MLC Outdoors. Fantastic. Michael. Well, hey, thank you so

(01:15:41):
much for your time spend with metoday. It was great catching up with
you. Can't wait till next timeour paths cross again. And huge congratulations
on that ELK tag. Thanks welldeserved. It can't happen to a better
guy. Awesome. Yeah, yeah, hopefully next time across paths it's in
the field though it's been to Yeah, I sure hope, so Ben,
it has been all right, Jesse, I appreciate the opportunity. Thanks for

(01:16:03):
listening to the Yahiva podcast produced byDriftwood Outdoors