Ep. 38: SHIRAS

On this special episode, Jesse Deubel talks with Brandon Butler about all things conservation including Brandon's newest film, "SHIRAS: A Nonresident Montana Moose Hunt."

Brandon Butler is a syndicated outdoor newspaper columnist and freelance magazine writer. His column, Driftwood Outdoors, has appeared in over 50 different newspapers and magazines, and currently runs in over 30 publications. He has won many awards for his outdoor communication work.

Butler has established himself as a conservation and outdoor media leader of his generation. He is currently the chief executive officer of Retrieving Freedom, Inc. Retrieving Freedom, Inc. is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization passionately committed to enhancing the lives of Veterans and children with autism through their specialized Service Dog training program. Brandon also spent five years as the executive director of the Conservation Federation of Missouri. He created and taught Conservation Communications at the University of Missouri.

Butler is actively involved in conservation organizations. He is a life member of CFM, NRA, Boone & Crockett Club, Trout Unlimited, Fly Fishers International and Missouri Hunting Heritage Federation. He holds a B.S. in Organizational Leadership from Purdue University, a M.A. in Organizational Leadership from Gonzaga University and is currently completing an Executive M.B.A. at the University of Missouri.

Jesse and Brandon talk about the new film and the ongoing challenge of separating politics from conservation. Brandon also provides a very exciting sneak peak into his next project, "In District Outdoors." Enjoy the listen! 

Watch SHIRAS: A Nonresident Montana Moose Hunt HERE!

For more info:
Driftwood Outdoors
Driftwood Outdoors Facebook
Driftwood Outdoors Instagram
NMWF

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hello everybody. Jesse Dubell here,New Mexico Wildlife Federation. Welcome back to
another episode of the IVA Podcast.This month, we've got a very special
guest, mister Brandon Butler from DriftwoodOutdoors is on the show. This is
Brandon's very first appearance on the IVAPodcast, which is kind of surprising to
me really, because Brandon is actuallythe reason that this podcast exists a number

(00:26):
of years ago, I think itwas back in twenty twenty two, Brandon
was out here for a barbary sheephunt, an over the counter barbary sheep
hunt that we enjoyed together, andon that trip I was a guest on
Brandon's podcast, which is the DriftwoodOutdoors podcast show. We had a great
conversation and after the episode, Brandoninsisted that the New Mexico Wildlife Federation start

(00:50):
a podcast of our own, andhe graciously agreed to help get it started
and provide the consultation on the originalequipment that it would take to get up
and running, and also provide someof the production and editing services that we
require. And so since that time, Drift with Outdoors has been the producer
of this very podcast that you're listeningto So Brandon, welcome to the show.

(01:15):
The New Mexico Wildlife Federation presents theJahiva Podcast. Well, thanks,
Jessie, I'm really glad you didthis podcast. You know, when I
was the executive director of the ConservationFederation, which is actually the way you
and I became friends, was havingvery similar roles in the conservation world,
I started a podcast for CFM calledConservation Federation, and I to this day

(01:41):
believe that all the affiliates should havea podcast. There's so little cost to
entry, it doesn't take a lotof time, and if you don't have
enough to talk about every week,then clearly you're not doing a good enough
job because there's more to talk aboutthan there is time to talk about it.
With Driftwood Outdoors, you know,I'm very lucky to have a great

(02:02):
co host and Nathan Shagg's MacLeod andyou know, his ability behind the board
and all the editing and post productionwork is what allows us to be able
to help with Ahiva as well.So big tip of the cap to Shags
and also do you for having youknow the wherewithal to start this podcast and

(02:23):
then you know, stick with it. That's I think that's the most important
part. People want to start one, but then when the work begins,
they don't want to stick with it. So good job man. Yeah,
well, thank you, Brandon.I appreciate it. And I know when
we first started the show, therewas a lot of discussion about us monetizing
the podcast, getting sponsors, andusing it as a vehicle to actually bring

(02:45):
revenue into the New Mexico Wildlife Federation. We haven't done that. We may
do it at some point in thefuture, but I quickly learned that there
was tremendous value in just providing thiseducational service to our membership and to our
listeners. There's a lot of valuein being able to have deep conversations about
interesting topics, controversial topics oftentimes,and so we've actually never pursued the avenue

(03:10):
of monetizing it. Although I thinkwhile it's difficult to track, I think
that having this available to our membershiphas certainly increased the willingness of our membership
to provide support to the organization.So I feel like it's been a very
profitable endeavor, even though we don'tnecessarily have sponsorships or money generating activities tied

(03:32):
directly to the podcast itself, butI've been really happy with it. I
just can't thank you and Shags enoughfor all the time and energy that you
put into helping us put a highquality show out every single month. Well,
you never know when someone's going tolisten, and it's going to be
the deciding factor as to whether ornot they become a member, they become
a major donor they show up atthe Capitol with you. You just you've

(03:55):
got to continue to try to reachpeople where they're at. And today a
lot of people are on podcasts,So great job. Yeah, thanks Matt.
Speaking of reaching people where they're at, one of the reasons I wanted
to have you on the show todayis to talk about your brand new film,
Shyris, which I was very honoredto have been a part of.
But I'm really excited about the filmbecause I think you do an incredible job

(04:19):
of storytelling and really helping the nonhunting community see all of the various reasons
that people hunt and all of thevalue that hunters bring to rural community.
So if you're ready, man,let's just jump right in and start talking
about the film. Well, Ithink it's our film, to be fair,

(04:40):
so You're definitely a huge part ofit. And I just want to
start by saying, you know,those of us that are lucky to have
a lot of friends in this world, you know, even if you have
a lot of friends, there aren'ta lot of friends out there that'll drop
everything to fly out to Montana andhelp you on a hunt that they don't

(05:00):
have a tag for. So thefact that you were so willing to come
and assist me and help carry meatand be in the back country, I
mean that my friend was incredible andsomething I'll never forget and always be grateful
for. So the hunt simply wouldn'thave been what it was without you,
neither of the film, So I'llstart with that. I started applying for

(05:26):
Moose, Goat, and Sheep inMontana in two thousand and four. I
moved to Denver right out of college. I was working with NAPA Auto Parts.
I was an executive management trainee.The idea was I would kind of
explore all areas of executive management andthey would figure out where I fit best.
Nine months into a two year program, I was told there's a position

(05:49):
open as a territory sales manager inBillings, Montana. You'd be covering really
everything around Yellowstone, Northwest Wyoming,southwest Montana. They said, you can
either finish this two year executive managementtrainee program and then go into sales,
or you can take this position andgo into sales now. But either way

(06:10):
you're going into sales. I said, I'll take it. I said,
you're going to give me a carand a credit card and turn me loose
and all these amazing wyoming in Montanatown surrounding Yellowstone, and you're gonna pay
me. I was like, yeah, okay, that works for me.
So I got up to Montana andit was absolutely a dream come true.
I was all over the state huntingand fishing, you know. In all

(06:32):
seriousness, I feel like I wasonly in Montana for four years, but
my territory ended up becoming the stateof Montana. I had switched to pharmaceutical
sales eventually, and every town thathad a prescriber I had to go to.
And I feel like I got toknow Montana from Plentywood to Callispell down

(06:53):
to Dylan, all the way outto Miles City and everything in between.
I got to know Montana very intimately, and I still, of course love
Montana. It's changed a lot intwenty years, and it continues to change
even more, but there are stillmany, many, great reasons to visit
Montana. So I continued applying forthe moose, goat, and sheep,

(07:17):
even though it's pretty expensive every yearto take that really really low odds of
success risk and the drawing, Andafter seventeen years applying for all three and
never drawing any of the three,I finally hit a moose permit in northwest
Montana. So it's actually a unitone ten, which is the western border

(07:43):
of Glacier National Park. And Ihad always applied for a different unit,
but having been to a professional OutdorMedia Association conference in Kalispell and being up
in Glacier, I just thought,if I'm going to come out here and
spend time chasing a moose, Imight as well do it in what I
think is probably the most beautiful partof the state. And I switched my
application to that unit, and inthe first year I hit it, which

(08:07):
was amazing. I mean, it'sjust like absolute shock when you open up,
you know, an email after seventeenstraight years of unsuccessful and it says
successful. It takes a minute tolike wrap your mind around that this is
going to happen, and then allof a sudden, the panic and fear
start creeping in, like I've gota moose permit? What am I going

(08:28):
to do? I immediately went lookingfor some help. I even thought about
using an outfitter, but there areno outfitters chasing moose in that unit.
I did get an outfitter on thephone through a mutual friend named rich Bird
Cell, and that guy was amazing, so gracious, you know so much

(08:50):
information. Mailed him some maps,he circled some areas for us. And
after that I called you said,hey, man, man, I got
this moose permit. How would youfeel about going on a hunt with me?
And you said yes. Then itstarted turning into like, well we
should try to make a film andlo and behold my friend Hollywood Steve.

(09:13):
We call him Hollywood Steve. Hisreal name is Steve for Cole because he
spent the last thirty years in Hollywood. I mean, this guy has been
a cameraman or a director of photography, so a top cameraman on Grey's Anatomy,
he worked on Sons of Anarchy,Scandal. He's been on some of
the biggest shows out there. Youknow he's filmed Bill Burr's latest movie,

(09:39):
Old Dads, and since pictures ofhim and Bill Burr together, which I'm
a huge Bill Burr fan, SoI was like, wow, man,
if only we can get Hollywood Steveto go with us and lo and behold,
he was on a writer's strike outthere in Hollywood. I said,
look, I know what you makein Hollywood, but I can give you
a little bit of scratch to goto Montana and film a movie, son,

(10:01):
And he'd never done that before,and he agreed to do it.
So I thought it was pretty amazingthat he filmed this whole Shiri's film just
hand holding a camera. Like wedidn't have any kind of big production,
we didn't have any kind of mechanicalassistance. He barely ever used a tripod.
He was just on the move holdingthe camera the whole time. And

(10:24):
then my girlfriend Lauren, she joinedus as well. So the four of
us took off and got into thewilderness. We stopped and talked to the
forest manager for the Stillwater State Forestand we had had a couple other people
in the area helping out with someyou know, some leads at most like

(10:45):
this could be a good drainage orI know someone who saw a moose in
here one time, But it doesn'tit doesn't dawn on you how big and
vast and how much of a needlein a hayste that hunt this is going
to be until you get out there. And I mean there's not moose like
running all over the place. Soit was pretty miraculous that we were able

(11:09):
to, you know, dial itin the way we were able to dial
it in, set up a campat a state forest campground, so a
primitive campground on a beautiful lake,upper Whitefish Lake, and then just take
off into the wilderness and you know, if you haven't seen the film,
to spoil it for you, youknow, we get a moose. You'll

(11:33):
have to watch the film to seehow that unfolds. But it was it
was pretty lucky and pretty unbelievable thatit came together the way it did well.
It was. It was awesome,Bran and it was such a blast
to be part of it, andhuge shout out to Steve Man. I
mean, here's a guy who doesn'thave a lot of experience in a hunting
camp, who hasn't spent a lotof time running around the mountains chasing wildlife

(11:56):
like you and I have, andhe was an absolute true man. His
tenacity was really remarkable, and Iappreciated all of his hard work. You
know, there were long days becausewe're waking up early in the morning,
going out and doing the actual hunt, and then when we get back to
camp at night. You had broughtthat box trailer, and Steve had essentially

(12:16):
converted that box trailer into like aproduction studio, complete with a generator that
he could use to charge up allof the batteries, and he's downloading memory
cards and doing all the stuff thatgoes on in movie production, which is
way above my pay scale. Buthe's doing all of that work well into
the night, and then we're wakingup, you know, before sun up

(12:37):
to do it all over again.So those are some super long days.
But I was really really impressed withSteve. But the other thing that I'd
like to talk a little bit aboutit and this is just to draw some
parallels and make this whole conversation andfilm relevant to our largely New Mexico audience.
Obviously, we have listeners all acrossthe country and even in other countries,
but the majority of our listeners arehere in New Mexico. One thing

(13:01):
that I want to drive home isthat we were camped on Montana state land,
and that's something the New Mexico WilieFederation has been working on for decades
in the state of New Mexico isto get camping allowed on state trust lands
in the state of New Mexico.Currently, we have about nine million acres
of state trust land in the stateof New Mexico that we have the right

(13:24):
to hunt on and fish on becauseour Department a Game and Fish pays a
lease. It's actually an easement agreement, but essentially we pay a million dollars
a year. That's money coming fromhunting and fishing license sales. A million
dollars a year is paid by NewMexico Department a Game and Fish to the
State Land Office in New Mexico.So we have the right to hunt and

(13:46):
fish on all our state trust lands. Unfortunately, we've never had the ability
to camp on our state trust landslarge dispersed camping. There are a couple
pieces of state trust land in thestate where there's a camping opportunity. There's
a little designated spot where a personcould camp or something like that. But
the New Mexico Wilie Federation has beenmaking the case that with that easement agreement,

(14:09):
with that million dollars paid every year, we should have the right to
camp on the state trust land,which is our public land. So that's
one of the efforts the New MexicoWilie Federation has been working on for a
long time and we're going to continueworking on it. But when you watch
this film, you'll see that thatthat was, in my opinion, a
huge value in the hunting experience thatwe had. Brandon. Can you imagine

(14:33):
what our hunt would have looked likeif we did not have the ability to
camp on state forest land in astate of Montana. It would have been
a different experience, I think,well to be to be fair, though,
to be clear, we were ata designated campground, so we weren't
just kind of out in the statefor us, you know, pitching our
tents wherever we wanted, and Ihonestly don't know if that's legal on those

(14:56):
state lands, but they did havea dozen designated campground for us that you
know, you put your money ina box, there was nobody checking you
in or checking you out. Isfirst come, first serve, so I
don't know if New Mexico doesn't evenhave that, but if you don't even
have designated campgrounds where people can payto spend a night, you know,

(15:16):
that's something the state should definitely consider. Because the other aspect of this film,
which I think is the part thatI enjoy the most, and you
and I have a lot of alot of experience working on politics and the
policy side of hunting and fishing.You know, we were able to really

(15:37):
focus much of the making of thisfilm on the impact that non resident hunters
have on a community or on agreater region. And I know, listening
to you and others out there inNew Mexico, you guys are having really
a war over tag allocation and wherethese tags are being allocated, most of

(16:03):
them going to you know, outfittersor private landowners that then can keep most
of that money, you know,the fringe money that comes in from the
hunters coming from out of state forthemselves as opposed to spreading it out into
the communities. And I was reallyproud of how we were able to capture,
you know, the impact that wewere making with a you know,

(16:26):
a family owned meat process or wherethe children were involved in the process,
a local taxidermist who did the Europeanmount on my skull, the Glacier fur
company that did the tanning of thewhole hide, les Schwab Tire when we
needed to get a tire fixed,and then going to the Moose Saloon in

(16:48):
Kalispell and getting some pizza, andyou know, we were able to highlight
what does it look like for anon hunter to descend on a community and
how do they spend their money inthose communities. So I think that part
of our equation is what can reallychange some hearts and minds, because if

(17:11):
you're not a hunter, or youknow you're even teetering on being an anti
hunter, but then you recognize notonly the health and wellness benefits of being
a hunter, but the economic aspectof it as well, and how hunters
bring serious dollars to your community aswell as conservation in general. You know,

(17:33):
I said that I applied seventeen yearsprior to drawing a tag. I
don't know exactly what that added upto you if prices changed over the years,
but let's just say roughly. Youknow, I've been sending two hundred
and fifty dollars a year to Montanajust to be told sorry, you didn't
draw, And then when I diddraw, you know, the tag was

(17:56):
one tho two hundred and fifty dollars. So I think it's very safe to
say that I contributed over three thousanddollars in tag fees and drawing fees to
Montana that went directly to conservation.And then once we were there, I
know we spent at least another twoto four thousand dollars depending on how you

(18:22):
look at it, well at leastthat much when you consider the taxidermy,
the meat processing, the fuel,the fees, all of that. So,
you know, I would say thatit was really telling to be able
to capture that in film and show, you know, what does a non
resident really bring to the table.Yeah, well, you bring up some

(18:44):
really great points, Brandon. I'mso glad that that aspect of the film
was such a strong theme. Andpart of the reason I was so happy
to be a part of it isbecause as we have these tag allocation battles
in New Mexico with the E plussystem and all of the other privatization schemes
that quite frankly, New Mexico hasbecome known for, I mean we're probably

(19:08):
the most egregious privatizer of wildlife inall of the West here in New Mexico,
and that's something New Mexico ISLI Federationhas been working for a long time
to reverse. But throughout that wholeprocess, I've often been branded, and
the New Mexico Isilie Federation has oftenbeen branded as being an anti non resident
organization because so many of the tagsgo to non residence and we're trying to

(19:30):
fix the system, not because wewant to disenfranchise non residents, but because
we want to make the allocation ofopportunity equitable across the board. We don't
want it to be based on wealthor land ownership, you know, Brandon.
In New Mexico, only fifty fivepercent of all of the ELK tags

(19:51):
issued are issued to end up inthe hands of a New Mexico resident.
So out of every single ELK tagin the state of New Mexico that gets
issued each year, just half ofthem, fifty five percent end up in
the hands of a New Mexico resident. And I think that's really out of
balance. But by no means amI against non resident hunters. The thing
that the New Mexico ally Federation hasbeen strongly opposed to is people having the

(20:15):
opportunity to buy their way to thefront of the line. And the fact
that you applied for eighteen years,ultimately seventeen unsuccessful and then finally seeing success
on the eighteenth year illustrates the patientsand the democratic allocation in Montana and how
it works. You stuck with it, you were patient, But if you
had unlimited financial resources you could havein New Mexico, you could have hunted

(20:38):
Elk every single one of those eighteenyears, while another non resident who's going
through the draw process has been sittingon the sidelines. And so this film
does a really good job of emphasizinga couple things, the importance of the
democratic allocation, but also illustrating thatnon residents, even those who don't hire
an outfitter, makes significant at financialcontributions to local economies. Because in New

(21:03):
Mexico, i think you're aware,ten percent of all the draw tags,
the tags that go into the draware only accessible to hunters who have a
legally binding contract with an outfitter.So we take all the draw tags and
then ten percent of them get setaside exclusively for outfitters, and the outfitter
lobby generally argues that that's necessary tosupport rural economies, and the argument that

(21:27):
I've made over the years is thatI don't think a non resident hunter using
an outfitter has any more financial benefitto a rural economy than a non resident
do with yourself hunter. One ofthe reasons I say that is because the
outfitters who participate in the outfitter setaside in New Mexico do not have to
be New Mexico based businesses. Soyou can have an outfitter from Minnesota,

(21:51):
and you apply with that outfitter,you draw a tag in THEHILA, then
you fly into the Albuquerque airport.The outfitter picks you up at the airport,
that supports you to a trailhead whereyou packed into the wilderness. You
spend ten days in a backcountry wildernesscamp. You pay the outfitter for all
of those services, but all ofthat money is going to this outfitter's business,

(22:11):
who's in Minnesota, for example.And then when the hunt is over,
the outfitter drives you back to theairport, you fly back home,
and the amount of time and moneyspent in the rural economies of New Mexico.
In many cases, I think areless than a hunter who does it
the way that you approach this moosehunt, where you're traveling by vehicles,

(22:33):
stopping at the local gas station,stopping at the cafes and diners, getting
a hotel room along the way,those kinds of things. So to really
highlight the financial and economic benefits ofthe do it yourself non resident hunter.
I thought that was really powerful.Man. I really appreciated that. Well,
thanks man. I know, Idefinitely advocate for hunters all over the

(22:56):
country, and I got myself intothis situation, suation where I want to
be able to hunt successfully in everystate by the time I turned fifty.
I call it my fifty and fiftyby fifty, a hunter's quest to experience
America. So I've traveled and huntedpretty extensively across to America, having been
successful now in thirty five or thirtysix states. Pedal to the metal is

(23:22):
I've got five years left to completethis. So I mean just today,
I spent over three hundred dollars applyingfor tags in Idaho and I got a
three percent success chance according to twentytwenty three drawing statistics. You know,
three percent success on the deer,three percent success on the on the elk,

(23:44):
and six percent on the prong hornunits that I applied for. So
like, that's an expensive lottery ticket. You know, some people go to
casinos. I don't. Some peoplebuy scratcher tickets. I don't. I
send my money to Conservation Life becauseI know that even if I don't draw,
I still win by benefiting conservation.And this year, you know,

(24:07):
I still need out West, Istill need Washington, California, Idaho,
Utah, and Nevada. So I'mlooking to do a duck hunt in California
and I haven't decided what to doin Washington yet, probably a mountain quail
hunt or a black tail deer hunt. But I'd really like to get a
bull elk in one of those threestates that I still have in Idaho,

(24:29):
Utah, and Nevada. So I'mall in on these draws with almost no
hope of getting a really good drawin the next five years. So with
Idaho, though, there is nothere's no points system, so it's worth
getting my name in the hat.But I'm not holding my breath. Yeah,
well, you know Idaho offers overthe counter elk cutting opportunity, right,

(24:49):
Brandon, They do if you're smartenough to apply by the December first
deadline, which I was not.So now I'm in the controlled hunt application
processed. Hopefully there'll be some returntags. I might be able to pick
up one of those as well.But it's kind of being like right back
to where we were when this Montanamousshun started. If I get one of

(25:12):
these tags, it's like, Okay, now I got a tag. You
know, can lightning strike twice andget this lucky two times in a row?
So getting a tag is only thebeginning of the adventure. Really,
I mean, once we draw atag, there's so much work to be
done on the front end to giveyourself a fighting chance. Actually harvesting an

(25:33):
animal, yeah, I think.I think a bull elk in an over
the counter unit in Idaho is achallenge for sure. But if that ends
up being the route you want totake, Man, and you need someone
to tag along, hopefully hopefully you'llremember my phone number, you'll be the
first call I make. Man,It'll be the first call I make.
Yeah, I would love to getan elk. I stayed at my friend

(25:55):
Josh Lane's over the weekend and he'sgot an ELK from Idaho on his wall,
like a Hell's CANYONLK. It wasan outfitted deal, you know.
He had probably seven or eight thousanddollars in it, but he got an
ELK, And I'm looking to doit do it yourself. So if I
can pull this, I like ourchances. Yeah, that's awesome. Man.
Well, and going back to theoutfitter conversation, just briefly, I

(26:18):
want to make it clear that I'mnot in any way against outfitters. I've
hunted with outfitters. I appreciate outfitters, you know, I just don't think
that someone should get better odds atdrawing a tag because they've hired an outfitter.
I'm a firm believer that someone shouldacquire the tag and then if hiring
an outfitter is the best choice forthem to make the most of that tag

(26:41):
or that hunt, and that's theexperience they're looking for, I'm one hundred
percent all for it. So I'mdefinitely not against outfitters or outfitted hunts in
any way. But having more moneybeing an advantage and having a greater opportunity
to draw a tag is just somethingthat I that I'm not comfortable with,
and I've not been comedule is becausequite frankly, Brandon, I think it

(27:02):
violates the North American model of wildlifeconservation, where it says that wildlife opportunities
shall be allocated through democratic process.You know, I feel like the North
American model is probably the most successfulwildlife conservation model that's ever existed on the
globe in modern history, and Ithink states would be well advised to adhere

(27:22):
to it to the extent possible.And that's where my gripe with the New
Mexico Department of Game and Fish,and really it's what the New Mexico State
Game Commission. You know, theGame and Fish is just implementing the rules
that are imposed by the state GameCommission that oversees Game and Fish. And
so that's where my real rub isis what the state Game Commission. And

(27:44):
that's no secret to our listeners,and that's no secret to the people of
New Mexico, and it's certainly nosecret to the commissioners because they hear from
me essentially on a daily basis.That's just that's the kind of work that
you and I do. But you'rein Missouri and if you're willing to,
Brandon, I'd love to talk alittle about Missouri's model and the way conservation
works in Missouri, because I believeit's the gold standard, And if you're

(28:07):
willing to have that conversation, I'dlove to talk about some of the pros
and cons and some of the battlesthat you faced while you were leading the
Conservation Federation of Missouri. And obviouslyyou're still very very active in conservation in
Missouri, and I'm curious to hearsome of the things that you all are
working on in the state. Well, Missouri has what they call the Missouri

(28:30):
model of conservation, which is veryunique and really incredible. Back in nineteen
thirty five, the citizens of Missouricame together behind the Conservation Federation of Missouri
flag and ran an initiative petition.So only nineteen states in the country currently
have the initiative petition process where citizenscan band together and make constitutional changes with

(28:55):
enough votes enough signatures to get onthe ballot. There's multiple steps shift to
go through, but we do itregularly here in Missouri. So the politicians
are doing everything they can to takethat right of ours away because we continue
to be acting with forethought and makingchanges to the state that need to be
changed, and they don't like it. When they're rich donors don't get to

(29:18):
control all the decision making that appliesto our constitution and to our rules and
regulations of the state. So they'realways trying to tear down the Missouri model
of conservation because it's outside of theirpurview, which I think is why it
runs so well. We have afour member commission. They're appointed by the

(29:41):
governor and approved by the Senate.So we like to say we have a
non political game agency. That's notnecessarily true if you really want to pull
back the curtain. The governor isappointing these people, the Senate is approving
those people. This isn't some averageJoe deer hunter all the street. They're
not pulling names out of a hat. These are people that are making significant

(30:04):
campaign contributions or have some kind ofyou very distinct tie to the governor and
are willing to grease enough wheels inthe Senate to get confirmed. So that's
the real unfortunate part is that youdon't have any you run of the mill,
blue collar construction worker ever seeing theirway to a commissioned seat. Commission

(30:26):
seats essentially are going to very veryhigh donors, And you know that part
of it I don't like, andI don't think the average public likes.
But the average public also doesn't understand, you know, how the sausage is
made in the state capitol. Sothat's the unfortunate aspect of it. The

(30:47):
fortunate aspect of it is is oncethose commissioners are seated and become aware of
the history of our model. Todate, I haven't met one yet that
doesn't become a huge advocate for theDepartartment and for conservation in Missouri as a
whole. As they have opportunities togo around the country and hear from other

(31:07):
game commissions and come to understand theinfighting and ridiculousness of allowing, you know,
partisan politicians to set game and phishlaws. I mean, they come
to quickly realize that, man,we've got it really, really good here
in Missouri, and so far,I can't be any more thankful for how
the commissioners have acted in the fifteenyears that I've been very active in Missouri

(31:33):
conservation. So Brandon, I wentto for just a second, because I
have two questions that I don't wantto lose my train of thought on the
first one regarding Senate confirmation. Soin New Mexico, our commissioners are also
supposed to be confirmed by the Senate, but it essentially never happens. They
just serve until they're confirmed or untilthey have a confirmation hearing. But I
couldn't tell you the last time acommissioner was actually went through a confirmation hearing.

(31:56):
So I'm curious if you have anyexamples of a really poor appointment that
was made and actually was not confirmedby the Senate. Has that happened in
your experience? It has, andI don't know if it's a poor appointment.
But there was a woman that youactually know who was on the board

(32:19):
of the National Wildlife Federation and shewas appointed as a commissioner. Her father's
a billionaire, he was a commissionerand essentially had pushed his daughter to continue
the legacy, and the Senate didnot confirm her. So there was one
example of not being able to buyyour way onto the commission I'm not saying

(32:45):
she wouldn't have been a good commissioner, because she definitely understands conservation and has
been part of the conservation community fora long time, so I do think
that she actually would have been agood commissioner. However, it was kind
of in life and to see pushbackthat, you know, a billionaire couldn't

(33:05):
just seat his daughter on the commission. Yeah, well, I think I
think cynic confirmation is really important.I think it's a really important part of
the process and one that I'm I'mpushing hard to have taken seriously in New
Mexico. The second question I haveis is there a process for removal of
commissioners in Missouri? So have youhad a commissioner who is serving on the

(33:27):
commission, has been a point confirmedby the Senate and is removed for one
reason or another, And if so, what were the circumstances like surrounding that
removal. I don't know. I'msure somewhere in the bylaws there is that,
but I've never heard of that happening. So okay, see, because
that year that you know, acommissioner could be seated similar to what's happened

(33:51):
in New Mexico, that would beyou know, against the best entrances,
best interests of sportsmen and women.But as far as I know, that's
never happened in Missouri. Okay,Well, the number one problem with our
commission in my opinion, in thestate of New Mexico. As you know,
I mean, commissions all across thecountry are supposed to be the insulation

(34:12):
between wildlife management and politics. They'resupposed to insulate wildlife management decisions from political
leanings. But in the state ofNew Mexico, the governor can currently remove
commissioners at any time without cause.So anytime a commissioner does something that the
governor doesn't like, the commissioners immediatelyremoved. I mean, our commissioners get
removed quickly. I mean we gothrough commissioners. We've got new commissioners every

(34:37):
couple months because of that reason,they do something, they might actually stand
up, they stand up for conservationand want to do the right thing,
and it goes against your governor's youknow, donor who likes to close rivers
off for private use when they're publicresources. And I mean, I mean,
Jesse, if we're going to pullthe curtain back on on the financial
side of things, that's when youreally get my blood boiling. I will

(35:01):
say, to finish the Missouri model. You know, we have a one
eighth of a cent sales tax herein Missouri. So that sales tax was
instituted in nineteen seventy six. Todate, it's generated billions of dollars for
conservation and it's why Missouri stands outso much above and beyond what other Midwestern

(35:21):
states have as far as public lands, as far as resources available for conservation
education. You know, we've gotover a million acres of state conservation lands
that are open to hunting, foraging, fishing. We like to say there's
a boat ramp within thirty minutes ofevery house in Missouri. We have incredible
you know, fisheries. We haveeducation through nature centers. Every resident of

(35:46):
Missouri can sign up and get ourmagazine for free called The Conservationists, which
is an incredible resource for conservation education. We also have a youth magazine that
goes out to anyone that's up forit as well. So our resources are
just way far above and beyond whatmost states could dream of. I worked

(36:07):
for the Department of Natural Resources inIndiana for a couple of years. I
had the good fortune of being theliaison between the Governor's office and the Department
and the Mitch Daniels administration, soI know all about the budget of Indiana
and comparing that to Missouri, it'sjust it's horrendous what we expect our fishing

(36:30):
game agencies, especially in the Midwest, to operate on as far as how
much resources they have. I meta director of a division director of fish
and Wildlife, and I was like, can I get your business card?
And he's like, yeah, theycut business cards out of the budget.
So I mean, it's really ashame. And then you see Missouri and

(36:50):
we have all this money. Youknow, We've got well over two hundred
million dollars in budgetary allocation for theDepartment of Conservation, and the benefit of
that just never ends. Yeah,it's it's huge. And I'm such a
huge fan of that system and talkabout it probably daily here in New Mexico

(37:10):
because our Department of Game and Fishin New Mexico is a big state,
you know, land masks, We'rea huge state. Our total operating budget
for the New Mexico Department of Gameand Fish is about fifty million per year,
and so you know, that's athat's twenty five percent of what you've
got in Missouri. And it shows. And that's not a dig on the
agency. You know, they're doingthe best they can with what they've got,

(37:35):
but the Missouri model's phenomenon. Iappreciate you sharing that with us.
It's just it's really kind of interestingthat that we're talking about shyris your new
film that I'm so happy about,and we're talking about all of the economic
benefits of hunting. You know,we're talking about money in a super positive
sense and all of the wonderful thingsthat hunting does from a financial benefit to

(37:57):
local communities. But now we're kindof seeing the reverse side of the coin,
where in wildlife management, where moneycan sometimes be the oh what's I
don't want to I don't want toover exaggerate the term here, but where
money can be the problem when itcomes to the decision making or or buying
outsized influence in those decisions. Well, man, I mean, let's just

(38:21):
let's just go. Let's get afterit, because this is what we're going
to lose some people. But Imean, you just look at politics in
general, and like what we're goingthrough right now with the presidential campaign,
and then you look at everything downto state representatives. I mean you go
through United States Congress, Senate governors, state senators, state reps, all

(38:44):
their statewide elected offices. And somehow, in just in our lifetime, man,
like the measure has become how muchmoney have they raised? Like that's
how we're like measuring the success ofthese candidates. Even the news talks about
like well he has raised x amountof dollars and she has raised X amount

(39:07):
of dollars. And it's like likesomehow those of us, you know,
citizens of this country, have becomethe suckers who are supposed to push our
money into a big pile so wecan get the candidates that we want elected
elected. And like that's not howour founding fathers saw this going. It

(39:27):
wasn't like who gets the most moneyso they can buy their way into a
political seat. And then you know, if you think for a second,
then anybody contributing money at a highlevel, you know, like if you're
just sending twenty five dollars to Trumpor Biden, you're a moron. Like
I don't know what to tell you, Like you're twenty five dollars going to

(39:47):
either one of those like super richpeople, Like don't do that, Like
if you care about a candidate,like go out and stump for them,
like go to an event and talkabout why they should be a candidate,
Like if you're living on Social Securityand a trailer with a cat and you're
sending twenty bucks to a candidate,like what are you doing? Like wake

(40:08):
up? Like that that's not themeasure of success in any of these situations.
But if you own like a majorbusiness and you're donating one hundred thousand
dollars, then you're part of theproblem too, because you're simply trying to
buy influence. You're you know,you're trying to buy your way in.
And then if these are tax rightoff, like if we can consider a

(40:30):
donation to a political candidate a taxright off, and I know in some
places you can and some places youcan't, then that's just again like you
know, broken rules allowing this tohappen and to move forward, Like I
would give anything to go back tolike when Abraham Lincoln was running for president
and ask like, well, howmuch money did Abraham Lincoln raise? Like

(40:52):
I don't think that was part ofthe conversation back then. Like the dude
literally stood on a stump from towntownor you know, wherever you happen to
be, in a wagon or whateverand delivered his vision for the country and
we don't get that anymore. Wedon't get like, here's my vision for
what I'm going to do because peopleare so uninformed. You're looking at Facebook

(41:15):
ads instead of reading articles in thenewspaper. It just goes on and on.
You know, these major contributions thatare going into these campaigns. I
mean, that's what's ruining our countryultimately. You know, you talked about
it on a podcast recently, whereyou're floating down a river and it's got

(41:37):
razor wire across it because some privatelandowner wants it to be their private reserve.
Well, the law is that can'tbe. That is just blatantly against
the law. So a commission says, you're right, like it says right
here in black and white that thiscannot be. This is illegal. Take

(41:58):
that razor wire down, and thenthe governor fires the commissioner because the person
to put the razor wire up madea campaign contribution. So you're literally buying
your way around the law. Andthat's where we've gotten as a country.
And most people either aren't aware they'repart of one of these two cults that
are running our country now. They'renot capable of thinking for themselves or getting

(42:22):
outside of the bubble that they've beensucked into by the fake news media.
Like I'll give Trump that, Likewhen he talks about fake news, it's
all fake news, Like, youknow, if he's not addressing the fact
that the people that are overly promotinghim or are fake news as well.
But the man did pull the curtainback on exposing or at least labeling what

(42:45):
we all know is like you know, essentially cult propaganda for whichever side of
the fence you seem to be on. And there isn't one party that's better
about this than the other party.Like it. Both these parties are essentially
colts, and you're donating money tothe cult so they can continue to brainwash

(43:07):
you into not only giving up yourmoney, but giving up your freedoms,
giving up your rights, and watchingthis this country, the system, this
this beautiful, beautiful system that wasgranted to us by our forefathers, be
dismantled by greed. It all justcomes down to greed, and unfortunately we

(43:29):
see that in conservation day in andday out. As you said, the
rich people get to pay to play. Like you know, I know a
guy very intimately that has ten bullson his wall that all score over like
three eighty and you want to belike, oh man, that's amazing.

(43:49):
Well, each one of those tagswas on private property. Each one of
those tags cost twenty five thousand dollars, you know, like, congratulations man
on your three hundred and eight eightyinch bowl, your your twelfth one.
You broke the four hundred inch mark. Like shooting fish in a barrel is
so hard, you know, likenever, never in your wildest dreams what

(44:12):
you've been able to do, likewhat you and I went out and did
to find this three year old smallantlered moose on public land and take it
apart ourselves and backpack it out ofthe mountains, and you know, like
that's the pride for me is thefact that this wasn't bought and paid for,
and it's it's the writing is soon the wall, like we're becoming

(44:37):
Europe and people just don't get itand they're being manipulated by the cult.
Eventually the rights will go away andthey'll be like what happened and be like,
oh, you paid money to haveyour rights destroyed. Congratulations? Yeah,
well that you know that that wasreally well said Brandon, and I
appreciate that and you know, theseare important conversations to have. I mean,

(45:00):
it might be less fun and perhapseven less entertaining than other things we
could talk about, but I thinkthese conversations are really important to have because
I get feedback every month when ourpodcast goes out. You know, we
send a leak out in our monthlynewsletter linking to the show, and I
get feedback every month, and Iget a lot of feedback from these types
of discussions, and that's probably thistype of discussion is probably the type that

(45:22):
generates the most feedback for me,and a lot of it's positive. I
mean, I sure you get everyonce in a while people write in saying
your way off mark and you know, we don't have it right, But
the majority of the time is peoplesaying, wow, I hadn't thought about
it like that, And I appreciateyou having that conversation because it's kind of
made me rethink the way this works. But you nailed it. We said
we're becoming like Europe, and that'sa real, real tragedy because that hunt

(45:45):
that you and I shared on publicLand do it yourself after eighteen years of
patience, you know, of youapplying for that. That's priceless. I
think you said that at one pointin the film when we were actually cooking
up a meal, right, we'dtaken the call fat out of the moose,
and we'd wrapped the tender loin andwe were cooking it over the fire,
And you actually said at that momentin the film that that experience,

(46:09):
in that situation that we were sharingtogether in that moment in that forest,
was completely priceless. And I thinkyou said some of the effective you can't
buy a meal like this for anyamount of money anywhere. No, you
couldn't buy that experience for any amountof money anywhere. And to be clear,

(46:29):
I'm down on the system. I'mreally down on where we are as
a citizenry. Like if you peopleask me all the time, well then
who would you want to be president? And I quickly say Martin Heinrich.
And people don't know who Martin Heinrichis because Martin Heinrich is sane and caring

(46:51):
and conventional and he's out there inNew Mexico doing a great job. But
he's a rural Missourian, a nativerural Missourian, went to the University of
Missouri. You know, he's studiedI believe engineering, he understands renewables,
but he's incredibly uh dedicated to conservation. He's a huge hunter. And across

(47:14):
this country people don't know that name, but they know Marjorie Taylor Green because
she's a nut job and you know, and and that's who the news focuses
on. So a guy like Martin, who's you know, doing an incredible
job, isn't getting the press becausehe's not some like reality TV star,

(47:37):
you know, he's not he's nota joke like he's. The people that
are jokes are the ones on bothsides of the aisle that continue to show
up on the news, continue tobuild the name recognition. And there are
amazing politicians out there, and Ialways have to be careful to talk about
that because I'm friends with a lotof them, like and I myself could

(47:57):
end up going that route someday,you know, Like you know, it
falls upon the man in the arena. As Roosevelt said, you know,
if you're not in the arena,then you shouldn't have an opportunity to talk.
But I do feel that you andI are both in the arena.
We've both served as public public servants, not elected, but you know,
we're running nonprofits and with the communicationwork that we're doing, so you know,

(48:21):
we're putting our names out there andtaking some hits. But I do
appreciate the fact that I would saya high percentage of our politicians are doing
great work and are doing it forthe right reasons. It's just the ones
that are out there acting like clownsthat these cult media organizations want to continuously

(48:45):
like perpetuate their stories because it drawsin eyeballs because it's essentially entertainment television.
So tip of the cap Senator MartinHeinrich out there in New Mexico, because
if you know, if they camedown to meet a way of my magic
wand and place somebody in the WhiteHouse, you know he'd be my first

(49:07):
pick. Yeah, well that weshould be so lucky, man, I'll
tell you, but we're lucky herein New Mexico to have such a strong
conservation champion fighting for you know,fighting for the things we care about.
And that's why we've been able toget a lot of amazing things done in
the last handful of years in theconservation Arena. But going back to the
communication piece, Brandon, do youwant to talk a little bit about your

(49:29):
your work in conservation around the countryin the communication space. I know you're
you're involved very much with the Associationof Great Lakes Outdoor Writers. I know
you also write a syndicated column thatyou've been writing for a long time,
as I recall. Yeah, soit goes back to the late nineteen eighties

(49:50):
when my grandfather, Rudy Kurpis wasjust ate up with outdoor media, and
my earliest outdoor adventures were with himand my grandma going up to Wisconsin,
Minnesota, Upper Peninsula, Michigan toWalleye Fish. You know, this is
just a couple generations removed. Youknow, when he would work is nine

(50:10):
to five. You'd get like oneor two weeks of vacation a year,
and he spent one of those weeksgoing north to fish and spent the other
fifty one weeks a year studying inpreparation of that trip. So he was
a subscriber to in Fisherman magazine MidwestOutdoors Fishing Facts, and there was a

(50:32):
little basket next to his desk thatheld those Those magazines always had the bass
Pro catalog in it, Cabella's catalogs, And when I'd go over to the
house, I would grab those magazinesand I would pour through them pictures,
reading, and then outdoor television camein to play. And I think maybe

(50:53):
around nineteen eighty eight, I waseight years old, nine years old,
and there was a Christian channel onUHF and kids, if you don't know
what UHF was, you probably alsodon't know what the B side of a
record was. But your main channels, NBCCBS that was all on you know,
regular television, and there was likethe UHF, which was you know,

(51:16):
your higher numbers. And we hada Christian channel out of Chicago,
channel thirty eight that would play fishingshows from like five thirty or six in
the morning till ten in the morningon Saturdays. So while most kids were
watching cartoons and eating cereal, Iwas staying over at Grandpa's house and we
would get up early and sit thereand watch Al Linder, Bill Dance,

(51:40):
Babe Winkleman, Billy Westmoreland, TedTakasaki, you know, the whole gamut
of these fishing shows, and juststudied them. He would record him on
his VCR. I still have someof those tapes. They're treasures of mine.
But it instilled in me this likeoutdoor media acumen. And I was

(52:00):
this early twelve year old subscriber toField and Stream and member of Buckmasters and
all of that. But nobody eversaid, like my grandfather included even going
through high school into college, likeeveryone knew I was a hunter, like
I had white tailed dear wallpaper,like I was that kid. And nobody

(52:22):
ever said, like, you coulddo this job, like you could be
an outdoor communicator. And I nevereven dreamed of it myself. I just
thought it was something like God musthave bestowed on the few lucky ones.
I was out in Montana. Ihad started doing my master's degree at Gunzac.
I was kind of doing a distancelearning and I was writing a lot,

(52:43):
writing about organizational leadership, and myprofessors were continuously like saying, hey,
you're a pretty good writer. Loand behold. I stumbled into a
doctor's office to call on a potentialclient. Turns out to be E.
Donald Thomas, Junior and Don Thomashas written more than twenty books in the

(53:04):
outdoors. He's co editor of TraditionalBowhunter Magazine. He's a guy who used
to write the back page for DucksUnlimited for like fourteen years. But when
he came out and called out oneof these rich landowners for trying to close
down the Ruby River in Montana.Ducks Unlimited fired him. So they had

(53:24):
a donor that's donating tens of millionsof dollars, trying to take away access
from the general public, from allthe Ducks Unlimited's regular members, the guys
and gals that send in their thirtyfive dollars a year. This guy wants
to just eliminate those people from beingable to use the Ruby River. In

(53:46):
another magazine outside Bozeman, don ThomasLamb blasts this dude, and Ducks Unlimited
fired him after fourteen years of incredibleconservation work and messaging and standing up for
the hundreds of thousands of everyday membersof Ducks Unlimited. They chose to chase
the money with their one major donor. And that shows you right there how

(54:09):
polluted everything is when it comes tomoney. Conservation is not without guilt,
and Ducks Unlimited like set the barin that situation for like the extent they'll
go to to protect a donor who'sclearly trying to deteriorate conservation access in this

(54:30):
country, you know, and sideliningtruly one of the greatest voices of conservation
in this country so they can keepthose dollars flowing. And I mean that
just shows you, like it's justman, that one really really hurts.
But anyways, I had walked intothe office and Don had his books out,
and I knew I'd liked the guythe first time I called on him

(54:52):
when he came out from the doctor'soffice to meet me and he had elk
blood on his blue jeans while hewas practicing meta and I said, man,
I'd give anything to be an outdoorwriter. And he's like, well
do it, you know, justwhy don't you do it then? And
I was like, what do youmean, like do it? So I
listened to him some more and he'slike, well, write me something.

(55:14):
And it was very much like ariver runs through it where I wrote these
horrible articles and he was like,no, this is this is horrible.
You should try to do this.And he helped me out a little bit,
and I ended up moving back toIndiana in two thousand and six in
the summer, and I decided Iwanted to, you know, try my
hand at newspaper writing because there wasan old timer named Jack Perry who I

(55:37):
read every Saturday as a kid ina post tribune in northwest Indiana. But
now I'm down in Bloomington and they'vegot an outdoor page that comes out on
the weekend, but there was nofishing report. So I built the PowerPoint
presentation. I went in met withthe publisher and the editor and given him
my PowerPoint presentation on like why theyshould hire me to be, you know,

(55:59):
an outdo or a writer for them. And they got about halfway through
the presentation and they said, allright, stop, will you do it
for free? And I was like, I was like, yeah, I'll
do it for free. And I'vesince gone on to the teaching college.
I've created a course at the Universityof Missouri and conservation communications, and I
talk about pivotal moments in life.I talk about like defining decisions, and

(56:24):
for me, that was a definingdecision and a pivotal moment because if I'd
have said no, I don't knowwhat would have happened, if I'd have
just gave up, if I'd triedto go to another newspaper. But I
said absolutely, like I invested inmyself and a few months later they started
paying me. I thought, well, if they'll pay me more. Newspapers

(56:45):
will pay me. I went onI self syndicated. That caught the attention
of the governor and the director ofthe Department of Natural Resources. That led
to me taking a job with them, which was actually like a sixty thousand
dollars pay cut, which was interestingbecause I had two babies under two.
Like people thought, I absolutely lostmy mind. I basically had to sell

(57:07):
all of my possessions and cashed outmy early four h one K to survive
for a couple of years. Butthat's when everything changed. That's when this
like path that I'm on started.In two thousand and six, I published
that first column in September. I'venever missed a week since. I've published
an outdoor column every week since Septemberof two thousand and six. The first

(57:31):
few months for free, I hadto prove myself. After that, you
know, it started to roll,got into the DNR, started writing for
the magazine. A guy named MartyBenson really took me under his wing,
and he took this like desire andwhat I would say was a raw talent,
and he, you know, hejust frankly just beat me up for

(57:54):
a couple of years. And editedme real hard and taught me so much.
And I feel like in that timeperiod I became, I got on
the path of being a professional outdoorcommunicator. And now it's twenty twenty four,
and you know, I'm forty fiveyears old and I've published I don't

(58:14):
know, well over a thousand articles, maybe fifteen hundred. I've hosted or
co hosted over three hundred episodes ofpodcasts, and now we're getting into making
films, so constantly trying to sharethe message of conservation, and that's ever
evolving as well. Man Like itcomes with time and age and experience,

(58:34):
Like you were lucky because your dadhunted and fished and took you out,
and I didn't have that. LikeI got a wonderful dad, and he's
always been there for me in sportsand golf and you know, any other
way that he could help, Buthe just doesn't like to hunt and fish.
So somehow it skipped the generation.And I did a lot of learning
on my own, which included makinga lot of mistakes, knowingly, cutting

(59:00):
a lot of corners and doing thingsin my teenage and early twenties, those
years that I'm not proud of today. But like we've all done, you
know, we've grown and and thenof course we still make mistakes. So
and some of that just comes fromthinking and you know, trying to rationalize

(59:22):
stuff to yourself and clearly. Andif you watch the film Shyrus, you'll
see the mistake that I made orwe made in that film. So it
was without malicious intent. It wasn'tintended in any way to just break the
law like we just you know,we didn't follow it to a t and

(59:44):
sometimes you know, that's enough toget you in trouble. Yeah, well
that's a super powerful story, Brandon. Thanks for sharing that, and I
really respect the dedication on that syndicatedcolumn. I remember we were driving from
I think Callous Spelled to Bozeman andyou asked me, you said, hey,
would you be willing to drive fora while because I really need to
get an article written. I've gota deadline coming up. I've got to

(01:00:07):
get this thing submitted. So youactually produced one of those articles to keep
that streak alive from two thousand andsix till today on the highway, I
think while while I was driving thetruck from Kallispelt to Bozeman, which was
pretty pretty impressive, man. Yeah, like I said, I don't.
I don't miss a week. Man. I've written from everywhere, hospitals,

(01:00:28):
vacations, Like I hear people allthe time, people I work with,
you know, I can't do itthis week because I'm on vacation this week,
or I'm you know, like Ineed, I need a couple of
weeks to you know, catch mybreath. And it's like, I don't
know. To me, it's youknow, it's just something I got to
do every week, and I don't. I don't ever let any excuse creep

(01:00:52):
in. And I feel like thathas poured over into a lot of other
aspects of my life. Like Iyou know, with that kind of dedicated
I've come to realize that, like, if you're committed, there's always going
to be a way to get itdone. Yeah, just like where's your
level of commitment come in. Yeah, it's going to be exciting to see

(01:01:13):
that level of commitment play out overthe course of the next five years as
you accomplish the fifty and fifty byfifty. Man, I'm really really excited
for this and to follow along.And you know, I know you've got
to get back to work, andso do I appreciate you taking the time
to join me here and talk aboutthis film. I encourage everybody to check
it out, but I'd also liketo let people know where they can find

(01:01:35):
you, Brandon, where they canfollow you, where they can read your
writing, listen to your shows.You know, you actually had one of
your boyhood fishing legends on your podcasta couple of years ago, I guess,
And that's I have to tell you. I haven't listened to every podcast
you've made, but I've probably listenedto most of them. I really enjoy
the show, but still to thisday, I think that's my favorite episode

(01:01:58):
that you've ever produced. That's oneone of the very few podcasts that I
could listen to driving down the roadand like laughing out loud hysterically while I'm
driving. Other drivers just looking atme thinking I'm crazy or something. Well,
thanks man. Me and Shags havea really good partnership, really good
relationship. You know. It's I'mmore of the hunter, he's more of

(01:02:21):
the fishermen, even though we bothdo you know, the opposite. I
guess I'm getting spoiled with fishing.Like both Shags and my girlfriend say,
I like catching more than fishing.And at this point that's I like pan
fishing man like I love bluegill andcrappie, and I like eating fish a
lot. So I spent a lotof time fishing for table fair walleyes perch.

(01:02:43):
But having Al Linder on the podcastthat was amazing. Drift with Outdoors,
Drift Withoutdoors, dot Com, Facebook, Instagram, you know have been
rolling with that Driftwood name since twothousand and six. That's really the major
platform. But I am very excitedabout a platform that I'm currently developing.

(01:03:05):
I really hope that this turns intosomething big. I do think it will
once I launch it and get itout there. I'm to the point now
where I'm having serious conversations and it'scalled in district, In District Outdoors.
You know, I did to takea step back. Like again, I

(01:03:27):
believe in proving the concept, likeI did the free newspaper column. For
a while, I proved the concept. I did a series what we would
call a television series for my oldemployer. After co writing a grant through
the USDA Climate Smart Commodities Program thatwas awarded eighty million dollars, I was
able to take a portion of thatmoney and create a communications platform trying to

(01:03:52):
educate people about the importance of waterquality, soil health, and how agriculture
and conservation can work more hand inhand to achieve both of those And it
was called Prairie Profits and Prairie Profitsis available on YouTube. So it proved
to me that I have the chopsto make a television show. I know,

(01:04:15):
I'm so jealous, Jesse of yourinteraction with Anthony Boordaine, but I
mean that guy's an absolute hero ofmine and to be able to create something
similar, like a show that couldlive on the way his shows did.
But the fact that he has multipleshows also shows you how this goes for
people, even as talented as AnthonyBourdain. There's going to be changes coming

(01:04:39):
down the line no matter who youare, how successful you are, how
great you are at what you do. So Prairie Profits was a one season
thing. I moved on to becomethe CEO of a service dog organization serving
veterans and children on the autism spectrumcalled Retrieving Freedom. You need to get
a plug in for that. Theplatform that I'm trying to develop now in

(01:05:01):
district it really addresses the concerns thatyou and I were talking about earlier with
politics, like I am never givingup on this country. I'm never giving
up on our system. I thinkthere's got to be a way to effectively
drain the swamp. We hear thatterm, you know, throwing out there,

(01:05:21):
and there's so much more to itthan running around, you know,
waving a flag for your side ofthe fence or the other. Like,
we have to take an objective lookat everything that's going on in our political
systems. And again, it's notgoing to take a rocket scientist to figure
out that it's money. Like themore money that gets injected into politics,

(01:05:42):
like these these congressmen that go inon a teacher's salary and come out with
thirty million dollars in the bank,Like we all know it's happening. We
do, Like it's not a surpriseto anybody that these politicians are becoming filthy
rich while they're in office on asalary of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars
a year. Like the math doesn'twork, But somehow we all look past

(01:06:04):
that and then we all send themmore of our own money. It's just
it's absolutely infuriating and ridiculous. Butin district will be my attempt at getting
politicians elected officials outdoors in their districtto learn about and hopefully address an area

(01:06:25):
of conservation concern, conservation concern throughconstituent interaction. So for example, here
in Missouri, down in Springfield,Missouri, what I'm hoping it will be
my pilot program is Congressman Eric Burlison, who I've known for quite a while.
He was a state reped and astate Senator and now he's a US

(01:06:45):
Congressman in the southwest corner of Missouri, the district that includes the home of
Bass Pro Shop. I think itwould be amazing to meet up with the
Congressman at Bass Pro go through thewonders of Wildlife museum, explain the importance
of conservation. He already knows that, but to the viewers kind of like
lay the groundwork and then go downto Tiny Como, which is a river

(01:07:09):
sandwich between two dams, do sometrout fishing, introduce them to people that
make their living based on the troutfishing that's available down there, and then
tour the hatchery, you know,a state hattery and federal hatchery in the
area as well, and look atyou know, what impact does the money

(01:07:32):
that Congress allocates to hatcheries have onthe overall general economy of a region.
So this isn't going to be likea hunting and fishing show that a bunch
of dudes go out and shoot deerand you know, brag about like the
score of the deer. Like,I want to dig into conservation issues through

(01:07:53):
a political lens, expose our electedofficials to their everyday constituents, expose them
to these stories, and then hopefully, you know, build some consensus over
time throughout Congress about these different issuesand how diverse conservation is, how many

(01:08:15):
diverse interests there are in conservation,and the fact that Connecticut, Connecticut,
and California may be vastly different,but there's there's ties that bind same with
Alaska and Alabama, you know,Florida and Pennsylvania. Like certainly there's specific
issues that need to be dealt within each location, but collectively, you
know, we need dedicated funding forconservation because those dollars that go into that

(01:08:39):
conservation funnel are going to come out, you know, tenfold on the other
end. So I want to beable to pull the curtain back on what
those issues are. I want toexpose our elected officials to them and do
it in a way that you knowis conducive to moving forward. You know,
no fighting, no gotcha moments,nothing like that. Just humanizing our

(01:09:05):
elected officials through interaction with some otherhumans, you know, and and focusing
on issues that we should all careabout. So that'll be called in district
outdoors if I can get it offthe ground. But I like my chances.
Yeah, well, you know youyou first introduced me to that concept

(01:09:25):
while we were moose hunting up inMontana, and I thought it was brilliant
then, and I think it's evenmore brilliant now. I mean the the
it's it's desperately needed, I feellike, and it's completely unique. You
know, It's not uncommon for peopleto come to me with ideas things that
they want to do. A lotof times it's sounds like something that's already
been done, or a slight variationof something that's already been done. But

(01:09:47):
I feel like this is a trulyunique storytelling opportunity that's that's critically important and
has the potential to make real impact, real across this country. So if
there's anything that I can do orthe New Mexico Wilie Federation can do,
Brandon, to support those efforts,to support you as you get that going

(01:10:10):
whatever. Man, you know,we're yeah, funny, you should mention
that, Jesse, because just overthe weekend I was thinking pretty in depth
about that and thinking about this podcastcoming up, and you know, my
problem is, like I just don'thave time as the CEO of Retrieving Freedom
to travel the country and do twelveepisodes of this show and thirteen episodes of

(01:10:32):
the show whatever it might be,and a podcast and the blogging. And
I thought to myself, if onlyI had a friend somebody out west that
is articulate and strikingly handsome and connectedto politicians and passionate about all these things,
Like if only I had a friendlike that. And then I thought,

(01:10:54):
well, yeah, what is AaronKendall doing these days? No?
No thinking about you, my man, Like if you know, like if
there was a way, you knowthat maybe we could put a team together
that you know, with you outwest, and then we bring in the
right person kind of in New Englandand then maybe somebody in the southeast to

(01:11:14):
where I could you know, Icould be the like the host, and
then we could have like some subhosts in different episodes with interactions in different
parts of the country. So I'vealready got you. I've already got you
penciled in there from my Western Fieldproducer or whatever we would call this role.

(01:11:38):
So sweet man. Well, I'mcertainly honored, Brandon. It's always
a pleasure working with you, man, and appreciate all the mentorship over the
years. You know, you wereworking with CFM Conservation Federation of Missouri before
I started with the New Mexico WildlifeFederation, and you were instrumental in helping
me get kind of onboarded and upto speed quickly so that you know,

(01:11:59):
I could hit the ground run.And you've just been a tremendous source of
inspiration and education ever since. AndI just can't thank you enough. I
encourage all of my listeners to followyou, look you up on social media,
start following the Driftwood Outdoors platform,a lot of fantastic content there,
and look forward to having you backon the show again. Man. We
should we should do another one herein a few months and get an update

(01:12:20):
on In District. I think weshould just do in District and have you
on the show all the time.That sounds even Yeah, I hope everybody
will check out Shyrus. I'm reallyproud of it. Couldn't have done it
without you, Jesse. Uh,it was very selfless of you. And
and uh, I'm definitely in yourin your debt. So and we didn't

(01:12:42):
even talk about the odd Ad huntin New Mexico. Like I've I've got
to pull the trigger on both huntsthat we've done together, Like you've got
to come to Missouri this year andshoot a white tail. Yeah, well,
the Big Game draw wasn't very generousto me this year, so I've
got plenty of time. That's onething I do have. Uh, So
I'm looking forward to it, Bran. And I'm going to take you up
on that. I know. Isaid I was gonna do that last year
and it didn't work out, butthis year it will. Good Man good

(01:13:05):
But at least you know you didn'tdraw, but you can feel good about
the fact that, you know,all those rich people got to buy their
way to the top of the line, right, Like, Hey, I
didn't draw. All these all thesepoor rich kids that have done nothing in
their life and fly around on Daddy'sjet. They got ELK licenses. So
at least I can feel good aboutthat. Yeah. Well two of them

(01:13:25):
have contacted me already and asked abouthelp on their outcome. Oh wow,
so so you bought a tag.You're buying a tag through the through this
expedited line here, and you wantme to go with you and help you
on the hunt. That's us aninteresting idea. Hello peasant, what are
you doing this? Like Shags likesto call it the poors, all of

(01:13:47):
us poors out there. Yeah,I'd love to carry your elk for you.
That's what being a poor is allabout. Hey, real quick,
before I know, I said,we're gonna wrap it up. But there's
there's there's one thing that I wantto just mention briefly. Shaggs told me
a story one time, and itwas in Missouri. I don't remember the
details around it, but I thinkit had to do with your state legislature.

(01:14:10):
That there was a legislator that wastrying to raid the one eighth of
one percent tax or somehow strip fundingthe from the Missouri Department of Conservation,
and Shags and maybe you were involvedalso kind of organized a campaign where people
showed up and commented, or maybeit was done through radio call and I

(01:14:31):
don't recall the details exactly, Ican tell you this story. Basically,
it was like why Missouri was thequestion? Yeah, so Shags like this
is kind of the origin story ofhow we became friends. So he's a
morning DJ and kind of the theHoward Stern of mid Missouri. You know,
he's funny and it's a little rougharound the edges at times. So

(01:14:55):
we were going through these political battlesin twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, twenty
six. But in twenty fifteen therewas severe retribution. So all the riches
got together and they tried to passa bill that would have transferred captive deer
control from the Department of Conservation tothe Department of Agriculture, thus essentially eliminating

(01:15:17):
regulations on the industry that's delivered CWDto our country and degraded hunting and pretty
much every way that you can degradehunting. So, you know, all
the money was being pushed into thesepoliticians' pockets who were completely willing to carry
the water for this industry as longas they got their twenty five hundred dollars,

(01:15:40):
because hey, twenty five hundred dollarstoday in exchange for ruining our deer
herd over the next fifty years.Sounds like a good deal to most people
trying to get re elected. SoI'm in the trenches, as you know,
as the Lora Axe, a registeredlobbyist fighting for fish Force and wildlife
in the Capitol, and Shags ison the radio just tormenting these people.

(01:16:03):
And there was a guy that wascarrying a bill that would have defunded the
Department of Conservation, which is constitutionallyimpossible. It would take an act of
the people. Anyways, he's callingit like four in the morning and saying
like he's leaving messages knowing that nobody'sthere, nobody will answer, but then
pretending like he was calling throughout theday. It just became this ongoing joke

(01:16:27):
and it was hilarious. And finallyhe was going to like storm the Capitol
with a bullhorn. And that's whenI said I need to know this guy
and got in touch and we endedup getting together and I said I have
a better idea, and we createdConservation Day at the Capitol, which just
blew up in this huge lobby daywhich thirty different conservation organizations would show up

(01:16:50):
and put their tables up and wewere in the rotunda between the Senate and
the House chambers, and we broughtin a bald eagle, so, you
know, like egles for politicians orlike candy for children, you know,
like they have to like, theyhave to get their picture taken with it.
So we would bring them by andlet them get their picture taken with
the eagle, and then we wouldhammer them on conservation issues. And so

(01:17:15):
those are the sort of things thatwe did that really started making a difference.
Uh, in Missouri. Wow,that's that's awesome man. That's but
you know, I remember specifically Shagcalling in the question to this crooked politician
was why do you hate Missouri?Yeah, and then he was quoted in
the paper a couple of weeks latersaying, I don't hate Missouri. It's

(01:17:38):
hilarious. Yeah, that's that's awesomeman. Well, that's a great way
to wrap it up. Man.That just here. How long you've been
involved in the impact that you've had, the changes that you're making, your
commitment to it, your commitment toconservation in general. It's just really really
fantastic. Brandon, thanks so muchfor carbon out some time out of your
morning to join me on the show. Man, and congratulations on Shyris.

(01:17:59):
I'm excited to share with all ofour listeners. Yeah, Man, thank
you very much for being part ofit. You're a great friend, you're
a great conservationist, and hopefully yourfriends in New Mexico liked the film.
Yeah, I believe they will.Thanks again, Brandon. All Right,
buddy, thanks for listening to theYahiva podcast produced by Drift with Outdoors.