Ep. 40: The Trail Less Traveled

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody, and welcome back to another episode of the
AIVAP podcast by the New Mexico Wildlife Federation. This is
your host, Jesse Dubell, and I am very excited to
announce our guest on today's show. This is a friend
of mine that I first met when she went to
work for the National Wildlife Federation, an organization that we
closely partner with and we are affiliated with, and our

(00:24):
guest today is going to be sharing some global perspective
on conservation and adventure and it's going to be one
heck of a conversation, So get ready and enjoy the listen.
The New Mexico Wildlife Federation presents the AHIVA Podcast. With that,
i'd like to introduce Mandela ben Eden. Mandela, welcome to

(00:45):
the show.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
Thank you so much, Jesse. It's wonderful to see you
again and to speak with you again. The last time
I saw you was when you were heading up to
the stage at the annual meeting in California to accept
a very wonderful award that was well deserved and it
was just really I was honored to be able to
give you a high five on your way up to
the stage.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Mandel.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
It was wonderful to see you out there at Lake
Tahoe at the National Wildlife Federation's annual meeting. You did
some amazing work for the National Wildlife Federation, but you
do amazing work in all kinds of different capacities. Do
you want to take a few minutes just to explain
to our listeners a little bit about your history, how
you got into the role you're currently in.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Just let us know who Mandela ben Eden is.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah. Well, I'll just start by saying, you know, part
of the reason I've dedicated half my life to guiding
expeditions around the world is because I truly believe that
the people who experience these wild places are more likely
to walk away and fight to protect them. And I
stepped away from guiding two hundred and fifty days of
the year to row a desk for the National Wildlife

(01:52):
Federation about three years ago because I really wanted to
help move the needle and learn how I could effectively
use my voice, encourage and inspire others to effectively use
their voice. So I just would like to start by
saying that my career with the National Wildlife Federation certainly
changed my life and helped me learn more about how
legislation works and how we can actually move the needle.

(02:13):
So I really appreciate that opportunity to make that move.
And I learned so much during my time at the
National Wildlife Federation, and I was connected with so many
conservation leaders such as yourself, and mentorship is a very
important part of my life, always has been, and so
once I just want to start by saying I'm really
grateful for that. So my background is pretty interesting. I

(02:36):
grew up on a nature reserve, a private nature reserve
at the most southern tip of the continent of Africa,
the country of South Africa. So my family has been
in South Africa since sixteen sixty two. Part of the
trade route from India to the Netherlands, they would stop
in Cape Town halfway to refresh and refill and then

(02:56):
continue on with their spice trade. So my ancestors arrived
in South Africa in sixteen sixty two, and that's on
my father's side, and then my mother is a Montana girl.
So I went back and forth between living and the
bush in a thatch hut on a private nature reserve
for about six months of the year, and then three
months of the year I was in a public school
and exploring public lands in Montana, hunting with my father,

(03:20):
fishing with my mom. And then the other three months
of the year I traveled extensively with my parents because
my mother was an international flight attendant with the United
Airlines for forty one years, and so I was born
into conservation. It was just a part of my upbringing,
from basically when I was a baby up until now.
It's just how I live my life. And when I

(03:42):
went to the University of Montana and Missoula to study,
I discovered you could get paid to run white water.
I did an orientation rafting trip with the University of
Montana's outdoor program, and I remember at lunchtime, I walked
up to the guides and I said, wait, you guys
are getting paid to do this. This is like a job.
And so I started volunteering my time and spending time

(04:04):
with mentors in the world of whitewater. And I have
been exploring the world mainly via rivers, guiding multi day
whitewater expeditions on most of the continents since I was eighteen.
And you know, I've just turned thirty seven the other
day and It's just such an amazing way to explore

(04:24):
ecosystems and also just see how the world is changing.
As you know, say the temperature increases in Alaska, how
are the river's up there changing? And that's my next
trip is to head up to Alaska to guide on
the Alsek and the Tachinchini Rivers and they slice through
the world's largest non polar ice field. Yeah. I discovered
whitewater expeditions when I was eighteen, and I also discovered

(04:45):
something else when I was eighteen. I discovered radio. And
so you know, I grew up with a love and
passion for storytelling. And you experienced storytelling in almost every
culture around the world, sitting around the fire. It's mankind's
earliest form of entertainment to share stories and to inspire
each other. And so I started a radio program with

(05:09):
the college radio station here in Missoula, Montana, and I
did that for five years on live radio, and I
interviewed professors and national geographic adventurers and foreign exchange students
and in people from all walks of life. And I
did that live two hours every week for about five years.
And then I went to Africa and fell Madley in

(05:30):
love with high volume white water. And we could talk
about that later if you have more questions about the
rivers I guide in Africa. But when I came back
to Missoula, I proposed this concept of a storytelling radio
adventure conservation series on the major radio station here in town.
And now that has been running for well over a decade,
and episode six hundred and four airs this week, and

(05:52):
it's called The Trail As Traveled, and The Trail Has
Traveled is dedicated to documenting mankind's earliest form of entertainment,
being storytelling. And these inner views are always recorded on location.
So you know, Jesse, one day I look forward to
interviewing you in New Mexico, hopefully up in the mountains,
in your natural habitat, And you know, I just feel
like it's important to be sitting in that natural habitat
and to speak to somebody while they're there and they're

(06:14):
inspired by what they see and smell and hear, and
using those sounds to take the listener there, whether it's
the sound of the wind as it whispers through the pines,
or the sound of the waves as I record someone
on top of a surfboard on the back line, or
as we're floating down the river. You know. I interviewed
the author David James Duncan just the other day and
I was rowing a boat on the main salmon while

(06:35):
I was interviewing him, and we had to take little
breaks as we ran some of the white water so
that my equipment wouldn't get water damage. But yeah, that's
the radio show that I do, and it's also a podcast.
But I wear a lot of different hats. One of
the hats I wear and have been wearing since I
was eighteen, is this, you know, outreach and education. And

(06:56):
I truly believe that children are our greatest natural resource.
And I spend as much time as I possibly can
in schools all over the world to educate and inspire
children that they can truly be part of the difference.
And so what I do to educate kids is I
usually play the digeridoo, which is a storytelling device in itself,

(07:20):
and it gets their attention. And then after I play
the digerido, I plant little seeds of curiosity about conservation
and about diversity, and about travel and about music. And
you been doing that for eighteen years now, and i'd say, Jesse,
one of the most beautiful things in the entire world.
For me is over the last three or four years,
I've had a stranger approach me about once a month

(07:41):
and they say, Mandela, you don't know who I am,
but you came and spoke at my school when I
was a little kid, and I just can't believe that
they remember that. And it's really heartwarming to hear you
know what they did with what they learned that day,
and everybody takes it a different direction. So that's a
little bit of a background on me. Adventure and conservation
have always been a part of my life, and I

(08:01):
feel you can't have one without the other, so I
try to find balance between the two as I continue
to move forward.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
Man, well, that's spectacular.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
I can't wait to do the deep dive into all
of the intricacies involved there. But I'm going to take
just a minute to talk about the didgerido because I've
seen photos of you in classrooms with this instrument, and
I've never heard one in person. I've heard it maybe
on Crocodile Dundee or something, I don't know where. I've
a various television programs or something. As a kid, I

(08:33):
think I was exposed to the sound that that particular
instrument makes.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
But I don't have.

Speaker 1 (08:36):
Any personal experience with one. But when you tell me
you're traveling around the world talking to kids, I'm imagining
that you're taking that instrument with you on the airplane.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
So could you describe for our listeners what the.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Instrument is, kind of the history of the instrument, if possible,
Explain the type of sound that it makes, and tell
me how it's received at the airport check incounters, because
I imagine it's probably had a few interesting reactions over
the years.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
So the diguridoo gets its name because of the sound
that you hear when it's played. I don't have one
in the room with me, believe it or not, but
I'll send you some audio later if you'd like to
insert it into the show. But it sounds a little
bit like this, whoomoo, did you redo?

Speaker 3 (09:22):
Did you redo?

Speaker 2 (09:23):
Did you redu? So that's how it gets its name.
It's this sound that it produces when it's played. But
that is a new name that There are over four
hundred languages spoken in Australia. Each of the indigenous Aboriginal
Australian groups of people have a different approach to storytelling.
They don't all use the didgeridoo as part of their storytelling.
The didurido itself comes from North Arnham Land in the

(09:45):
north central part of Australia, and one of the more
common names for that instrument in Australia is a yadaki
or a gudum gudum gambak, and it's a eucalyptus tree
that's been hollowed out naturally by termites and it goes
back thousands and thousands and thousands of years. If you
think about how long eucalyptus trees have been growing on

(10:06):
our planet and how long term mites have been eating
those trees to be hollow you can give you an
idea of how long they've been around. But many ethno
musicologists believe that the didgeridoo or the yadda ki is
older than the drum, and so it's played traditionally in
a corroboree, which is where indigenous Aboriginal Australians get together
and they share stories of the dream time, and for them,

(10:28):
the dream time was when the cosmos was created, and
in those stories, animals play a very significant role and
a lot of the time the rainbow serpent is involved,
as rainbow serpent is a couple hundred kilometers long and
helped shape Australia as it moved across the land. But
for example, in one of the stories, you might hear
a kukabata cucua getting into an argument with a dingo,

(10:52):
and the digeridoo helps to make those sounds, and maybe
in that story, maybe a kukabata got into an argument
with ito and lots of land was pushed up and
blood was spilt, and maybe for them and their culture,
that's how a place like the Grand Canyon came to be,
you know. So it's a lot of the times animals
are involved, and the kangaroo is very symbolic as well.
For some of the cultures, the kangaroo is seen as

(11:14):
a brother or a sister. So when you are traveling
in Australia, it's so so very important that you gather
as much knowledge as you can. And that's not just
for Australia. That's for around the world, but you know,
for Australia. At one point, if you were to walk
across the entire land itself, you would want to make
sure that you gather as much knowledge as you possibly

(11:34):
can in the form of the song lines, so that
you can respectfully cross borders and in gathering knowledge. For example,
one culture might see the kangaroo as food and another
culture might see the kangaroo as brother and sister. So
if you cross into a land where kangaroo is brother
and sister and you decide you want to harvest a kangaroo,
that's a very significant harm to that culture because you've

(11:59):
basically killed brother or sister. So it's very important that
you study and you gather as much knowledge as you
possibly can, whether it's just Australia itself or when you're
traveling around the world. And these stories are often shared
in gatherings that you know, sometimes it can take a
few days to tell a story. And I think that's
really beautiful. And we've kind of moved away from the
patients it takes to learn from our elders, but you know,

(12:24):
you still find that in cultures all over the world.
And the digurydo is a very beautiful instrument. I've been
playing it since I was eight years old. I spent
a lot of time in Australia when I was a kid,
and I will share that the dijurydo is very taboo
for women to play, and I understand this, and I
do not play the digerido when I'm in Australia unless

(12:46):
I'm invited. But because of a few decades of sitting
with indigenous Aboriginal Australians and learning from them, I've been
given permission to play as long as I talk about
the significance of that instrument for their culture before I
play it. That's a huge part of the outreach that
I do. And I tried to educate people based on
what the elders have taught me and then sharing the

(13:08):
didredo with them. And yeah, thats a little bit about
the dijurydo. That's a much longer story that we could
dive into eventually, but I have traveled all over the
world with full size did redos and I'll share that.
You know, the diri you do has also saved my
life in some circumstances. For example, I ran out of

(13:29):
money in South America when I was nineteen or twenty
years old, and it was partly because the bank turned
my credit card off due to a suspicious activity in
a foreign country, and so I had to sit down
on the cobblestone streets in Uruguay, and I took my
hat off, and I put my hat in front of

(13:49):
me and I played Didreydo and I made enough money
to get a hostel and an impanada that night. And
now I've played didreydo you know in Paris and London,
and I had a permit play the didgeridoo on the
streets of Cape Town, South Africa, and so it's just
pretty amazing. Music is an international language, and if you

(14:09):
can play an instrument, whether it's the spoons or the
did redoo or the guitar or the drums, it really
can help you to connect with communities around the world. Nowadays,
I travel with a breakdown diditidoo, and so it is
man out of plastic and the pieces screw together so
that it can be six and a half feet long,
or it can pack down so that it fits inside

(14:31):
of my whitewater kayak. But you know, there are some
places that I've walked in, like the neighborhoods in Buenos Aires,
where I maybe shouldn't have been walking where I was
walking that night, but I was walking with a seven
foot you know digitydoo in my hand, and it wasn't
a terrible thing. At that point to be walking around
with that. But I can't travel with a full sized
ditch all the time, partly because it's not carry on size.

(14:54):
So yeah, and when you know, there's many different instruments
around the world are similar to the digeridoo. For example,
in Southern Africa, we've this instrument called the vuvuzela, which
is actually a kudoo horn. So the kudu is a
beautiful animal in Southern Africa and it has about two
and a half curls to its horn. It's hollow, and

(15:15):
so it's used as a as a communication device as well.
They make them out of plastic now and they've actually
been outlawed from sporting events because if you watched the
FIFA World Cup when it was in South Africa, you
could hear this buzzing in the background the whole time
and it was kind of distracting from the event itself.
So then you have, you know, the beautiful Tibetan dijuri

(15:39):
do I sometimes call it, and it's used in ceremony
and many Buddhist ceremonies. So all over the world there's
different instruments that are very similar to the dijurido. But
the Diadaki, the Digeridoo, the Guru Gurdum Gambak originates in
the north central part of Australia and it's a storytelling device.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
Wow, that was a fantastic explanation.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Thank you for thank you for taking along, taking us
along as you explain that that history and the significance
and culture. And I couldn't help but to draw some
parallels to the importance of being culturally aware. You know,
here in New Mexico we have nineteen different indigenous pueblos
and we have also federally recognized Apache tribes and also

(16:22):
the Navajo Nation, and there's a lot of nuances and
differences from the beliefs of one pueblo to another, and
it's really important to be sensitive to those things and
be aware of them and open minded and willing to learn.
And I've been fortunate in my role here at the
New Mexico Islie Federation to have been on numerous guided
trips with indigenous leaders to various cultural sites and very

(16:44):
very significant places. Out of curiosity, Mandela, have you ever
visited Chaco Canyon before?

Speaker 2 (16:50):
No, not yet. There's so many amazing places just within
North America that I look forward to exploring over the
next fifty years or so. You know, that's something I
like to remind peoples that you hear my adventures and
you know, maybe I'm overseas, but gosh, we have so
many beautiful places to explore right here and their privilege,
you know, to be able to explore places like Choco.

(17:12):
So I look forward to going there someday.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah, well, maybe that's maybe that's a site where we
can record an episode for the Trails Traveled. Maybe we
can do that in the vicinity of Chaco Canyon and
have that conversation. But I'm interested to hear because I'm
really fascinated by this. Number of years ago we had
Shane Mahoney on the show. Shane is a wonderful friend
of mine and the founder of Conservation Visions, and he's

(17:36):
done a lot of international conservation work, and so I
know a little bit about the differences that exist in
conservation models around the world.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
I just returned.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Recently from a trip to Eastern Europe where I was
able to have numerous conversations with various land managers and
landowners about the way that wildlife is treated and managed
and conservation is approached in that region of the world.
But I'm wondering if you would take a little time
to maybe compare and contrast Alaska in Africa, or Alaska

(18:08):
Australia and Africa, or Montana in Africa.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
I'm just I imagine that there's.

Speaker 1 (18:13):
Some some similar concepts that are universal globally, and I
would imagine also that there's some things that are very
very different with regard to the way that people interact
with and think about the wild others.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Wonderful question, Jesse, Thank you. I'll do my best to
answer it from the experiences that I've gathered during my
time on this planet. And you know, everybody's got a story,
everybody has a different perspective, and I'll share with you
what my teachers, my mentors, and my colleagues have helped

(18:49):
me understand over the years. I'll start by saying, you know,
Africa has as of today, fifty four countries and well
over two thousand language and cultures. I most recently have
been working in Zambia. So Zambia is a country that's
located in southern Africa. It's surrounded by eight countries. Within itself,

(19:10):
so Zambia is landlocked by Tanzania. The Democratic Republic of
the Congo and Gola, Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Malawi and Mozambique.
And there is an incredible program that's been unfolding in
Zambia for many years, and I'd like to focus on

(19:33):
that to start. It's called Game Rangers International, and Game
Rangers International has a holistic approach to conservation that includes
three pillars, resource protection, wildlife rescue, and community outreach. So
resource protection involves the anti poaching efforts. For example, the SAPU,
this special anti poaching unit. We can talk about that

(19:55):
more later if you'd like. I spent some time living
with them last year on the front lines of servation
in Zambia. And then we have wildlife rescue. So Game
Rangers International has successfully reintroduced sixty elephant calfs who were
orphaned because their parents were killed due to poaching and
or human wildlife conflict. We can talk more about that later.

(20:17):
Because a lot of people don't realize that we have
so many similarities in Montana. I'll focus on Montana because
that's where I'm speaking to you from today, and in
Zambia and in many of the Southern African countries. You know,
as we continue to build roads and build hotels and
build housing for people. It's encroaching on wildlife habitat. We're

(20:40):
experiencing that in Zambia, and we're experiencing that in Montana,
and you know, also working actively to connect wildlife corridors.
That's happening in Southern Africa, that's happening here in the West,
and so Wildlife Rescue they have reintroduced sixty elephant halfs
whose parents were killed by poachers or killed due to

(21:03):
human wildlife conflict. And when I talk about human wildlife
conflict again, I'm talking about habitat fragmentation where say, for example,
a hotel is built in the main corridor where the
elephants walked to get to the water. And this happened
just recently in Livingstone in Zambia, right on the Zambizi River.
So now the elephants are kind of being forced to
walk through the villages there. It's happening all over the

(21:27):
country of Zambia. And as the elephants walk through the villages,
you know, many things could happen. The elephants could decide
that the mango crop or the maize crop looks delicious,
and an elephant can destroy an entire crop within thirty minutes,
and that's that community's entire savings, and so they don't
necessarily have a backup plan, you know. And at that point,

(21:49):
someone might then be forced to find an alternative way
to feed their family, and that might involvesistence poaching, which
is very different than trophy poaching, and we can talk
more about that later if you'd like. But you know,
elephants are not necessarily killed all the time just for
their ivory, and I don't want to get too much

(22:12):
into that right now. We can certainly talk more about
that later, but sometimes elephants are killed because they're walking
through the village because where they used to walk there's
now a road or there's now a hotel, if that
makes sense. And so human wildlife conflict is as significant,
if not more so, than poaching. And then we have
community outreach and that is so important to get the

(22:33):
community on board. And again seeing those similarities in the
West as well. You know, for example, what Game Rangers
International is doing is you know, working with women's empowerment
groups and you know, also working with farmers so that
farmers can start to grow chili peppers so that the
paste can be made from the chili peppers, because elephants
don't like chili peppers, and so putting that paste or

(22:54):
putting that chili pepper around the crops helps to prevent
the elephants from coming into the crops. Also learning how
to work with bees. Elephants don't necessarily like bees that much,
and so putting bee boxes around the crops is another
way to help coexist with the elephants. And so when
I was in Zambia last year, I spent forty days

(23:16):
on the front lines of conservation and I did many
interviews with researchers and rangers and expoachers and community members
and farmers, and I learned so much. One of the
things I learned from the farmers was that wow, so
many similarities are being faced in Zambia as are being

(23:38):
faced in Montana. As we speak, I'm actually building a
house in the forest, and I'm thinking about fire season,
you know, and trying to keep that forest nice and
open and healthy so that when a wildfire comes through there,
it's not out of control and my house doesn't burn down.
We have out of control wildfires also happening in Africa.
We also have deforestation, as the forests get cut down

(24:01):
mainly to make firewoods so that people can cook their food.
And as the forests are cut down, then the flash
floods are actually completely washing all the resources away, and
villages are being destroyed because of the way that the
water's moving through them without the trees being there. And
then when I was recording in Zambia, literally i'd say

(24:22):
at least a dozen of my interviews, when I was
interviewing that person, they said today, right now as we talk,
it's hotter than it's ever been in Zambia. So the
temperatures are more extreme that than they've ever been during
the hotter times of year, and then colder than they've
ever been during the colder times of year. And so
just kind of very interesting. As I travel the world
and I interview people on every continent, I'm just blown

(24:47):
away by how much we actually have in common with
these people that you maybe don't speak the same language,
you maybe don't have the same approach to how you
might have a marriage or handle but every time within
a different culture, there's a different approach to how you
might handle discord. For example, the you know, one culture,

(25:08):
they might have the elders sit under a baobab tree
and talk it out for a few days, and another
one they might be leaning more into the warrior aspect
of fighting it out or wrestling. But you know, those
differences set aside, we have so much in common as
we continue to mitigate and adapt to the changing climate.
And so that feels like a big can of worms

(25:29):
that we can probably crack open for a full episode
in itself. But I'm just blown away by the similarities.
And another one being that, you know, a lot of
the conservation funding in Africa is coming from hunting, and
that's a little bit of a controversial topic when you
talk about you know, you know, trophy hunting and where
that money is coming from and where it's going to.

(25:49):
But I think it's important for people to understand the
connection between hunting, fishing, and conservation, both here in the
United States and in many of the countries within the
continent of Africa.

Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, that's uh. I'm glad you brought that up, because
that is something that really intrigues me. And we saw
that controversy really inflamed a number of years ago after
Cecil the Lion was taken by a dentist I think
maybe from Illinois something like that, and that made the
press and the media and all of these things, and
I felt like there was a lot of misinformation circulating.

(26:24):
And I think that mainstream media doesn't necessarily do it
a very great job of representing the importance of well
regulated hunting in Africa, and I think a lot of
times there's an interchange of words that's very harmful to
the hunting community by the media, where poaching incidents are

(26:46):
referred to as hunting things like that, they don't differentiate
really well between one or the other. But in Africa,
and I don't again, it's the size of that continent
is just immense, as you just lane with the number
of countries and cultures and languages and all of that.
So I feel a little bit embarrassed when I'm referring
to the entire continent, you know, and trying to ask

(27:08):
questions about an entire continent where things obviously vary greatly
from one place to the next within the continent. But
the image that a lot of hunters have of Africa
is of these high fence commercial operations. You know, You've
got these these high fence concessions, and there was recently
a lot of controversy about that, Like is that really

(27:28):
hunting if these are high fence places, And of course
the proponents for that type of activity said, well, these
are expansive landscapes. We're not talking about a zoo here.
These are not critters that are fenced into small enclosures.
These are humongous areas that are fenced. But they often
say that the fences are not necessarily designed to contain

(27:48):
the animals. Rather the fences are designed to keep out
the poachers. And I'm just curious if you have any
comments or can provide any clarity to that argument that
I've heard over the years.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, I'll start by sharing that it is a conundrum,
it is a controversial topic, and I am going to
just share based on my experience and the interviews that
I've recorded, because for many years now I've been working
on a series of interviews with hunters on the continent

(28:22):
of Africa, particularly in the southern African countries like South
Africa and Namibia, Botswana, Zimbabwe, Zambia, and there are many
different types of hunting, you know, if you just think
about the types of firearms that are used, or the
types of hunting seasons, or the approaches that we have
here in the United states. It's like that, except maybe

(28:43):
even more vast on the continent of Africa. So I'll
start by saying that trophy hunting can be a valuable
conservation strategy in Africa because it can provide funding for
conservation efforts and support local communities. That said, there's many
different so I'll just share my most recent experience. I

(29:05):
was able to hunt springbalk recently on a farm in
the Karua, which is a dry desert region in the
eastern Cape of South Africa, and is a close family
friend of mine who has this very large farm. And
in South Africa, this is how it works. If your
fence is tall enough to keep your game animals in

(29:29):
your area, then they're yours. As soon as the animal
jumps the fence and is in your neighbor's yard, now
that animal is theirs. So that's one of the ways
in which the wildlife is observed in Southern Africa. It's
not like you can go to your neighbor and say, hey,
my springbok jump defence, I want to have it back
now the springbok jump defence. Now that springbok belongs to

(29:52):
that person next door. We don't have a lot of
private land We don't have a lot of public lands
in South Africa, which is part of the reason why
I so appreciate Montana. I so appreciate the North America
because of access to public lands. In South Africa, a
lot of the ecosystems are fragmented and they're almost like

(30:15):
islands of ecosystems are spread around. So a lot of
the times when people are hunting, they are on private lands.
And there's many different approaches to hunting. So you know,
my friend who's a farmer, some people might come and
hunt on his land and they they have trouble walking,
so they might be driven around in a truck and
they might harvest an animal from the back of a vehicle.

(30:37):
Another person might be on foot, like I was on
foot when I was doing when I harvest my spring walk.
And that's partly because that's how I grew up hunting
in Montana with my dad, was walking on foot on
public lands, so I felt more comfortable harvesting an animal
that way. I've interviewed people before who were involved with
this very interesting concept. I think at the time it

(31:00):
was called green hunting, and again I'm just going to
share from what I learned. It's folks who pay quite
a large amount of money to come and harvest an
animal with a tranquilizer gun, and they will actually shoot
the animal with a tranquilizer gun. They have about four
or five minutes to pose for a photo with that

(31:20):
animal before the animal will wake up and go on
with their day, So the animal is not killed, it's
just mainly for the photo. And then the strangest part
about that is they only get to do that once
a year because that animal actually gets addicted to the tranquilizer.
So there's just so many different approaches to hunting in Africa,

(31:40):
and I'm very hesitant to even use the word hunting,
especially when it comes to using a tranquilizer gun. And
you know because for me, I do it so that
I could put meat in the freezer. And there's many
different personal reasons why someone might approach that activity. And
so just sharing with you a little bit about what
I've learned is it's an amazing place to explore and

(32:04):
to connect with the land, whether you're harvesting a spring
walk or you go there to harvest a Hems book.
And I believe that you have Hems Book in New Mexico,
but it's called something else, right, Jesse, That's right.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah, So we I all mispronounce it because we've always
referred to them as African gims bock. We say the
g differently than it's supposed to be pronounced, I think
here in our local vernacular. But more commonly they refer
to as oryx And I know there's a different species
of animal called scimitar horned orx, and those are not
the orcs that are here. What are here actually the

(32:37):
African hymns bock that were introduced purposely to the region. Obviously,
there's a lot of times people call them invasive species
here in the state, and it always it always makes
me chuckle because they say, well, how could they have
possibly invaded? You know, they obviously were not invasive. They're
non native, that's for sure. But they are free ranging.
And it just so happens that the region that they

(32:59):
exist around the White Sands Missile Ranger on and around
my White Sands Missile Range very closely mimics the habitat
that they might exist in Africa. So it's it's a
really and I'll tell you, I absolutely love those animals.
They're one of the things about New Mexico that I
love the most, and we have a couple of different

(33:21):
African species. We also have a species from the Barbary
coast of Africa that are often referred to as our
dad and I might be mispronouncing that also, but here
in New Mexico, for whatever reason, we just call them
Barbary sheep. And both of those species make amazing tablefair
But most New Mexicans would argue with about anybody that

(33:41):
rix is probably the best tasting protein that can be
found on public lands here in New Mexico. I don't
know what it is about that particular protein, but it
is fantastic. And the tags aren't super easy to draw.
I've harvested one in my entire life. I apply every
single year for a tag. All the tags are issued

(34:01):
through lottery. I've only ever drawn one tag and I
was able to harvest an animal. But I've been on
countless hunts with other people. Everybody knows how much I
enjoy being out on the landscape looking for those animals.
And they're they're just built so different than North American
game species. The bone structure and the way that they're shaped.

(34:23):
I mean, the front quarters are larger than the hind
quarters like almost the way that a bison is shaped.
And they're just magnificent. I mean, they are one of
the neatest creatures I've ever had the privilege of being around.
So there are people who really criticize me as being
you know, the executive director of a New Mexico based

(34:44):
conservation organization focused on the protection of wildlife, and they say,
you know, how can you support these non native species
being out on our landscape and competing with our native wildlife?

Speaker 3 (34:56):
And they have a point, you know.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
I I certainly won't say that they don't have a point.
But these species were introduced to the region before I
was ever born, so they were on the landscape before
I was. And they live in some very very harsh conditions.
I mean, they live in areas, especially the barbary sheep,
they live in areas that I'm not a biologist, Bendela,

(35:20):
but I struggled to wonder what else could possibly occupy
some of these places, because they can go ridiculous at
lengths of time without drinking liquid water.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
I mean, they can eat things that no other species eats.
They reproduce like crazy.

Speaker 1 (35:34):
They have the ability to avoid predation like no other
animal I've ever seen. Their eyesight is supernatural. I don't
even I mean, it's amazing. I've ever killed barbary sheep,
and I've been fortunate to harvest quite a few because
it's one of the few animals in New Mexico that
we can hunt over the counter. That you don't have
to draw a tag for barbary sheep in certain areas,
and so they just live in areas that a lot

(35:55):
of people will not go to those places to try
to find those animals, and they blend into the landscape
so well. I've sat on sandstone cliffs glassing with very
high quality optics, I mean swarrowsky binoculars and staring.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
At a hillside or a section of cliffs.

Speaker 1 (36:15):
You know, when you look at some of the topography
and the geology in New Mexico, you've got these bands
of rocks, you know, you have these vertical rock faces,
and then in between two bands of vertical rocks, sometimes
there's a very very steep but vegetated kind of slope.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
I don't know what that's called.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
In you know, geology class, but there's those those little
transition areas in between vertical rock slopes, and that's usually
where I'm finding barbary sheep in the areas where.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
I hunt them. But there's been times that I've.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
Glassed a particular spot for hours and then kind of
come to the realization that there's just no sheep there,
so it's time to move on and glass somewhere else,
And just as I'm about to leave, I spot some
movement and then the next thing you know, the entire
area is alive with sheep. And there's twenty or thirty
of these sheep in a spot that I've been staring
at for the last two hours, And somehow that the

(37:07):
entire herd was undetected until one young lamb makes a
mistake and moves, and then I'm able to identify all
the animals. But I have so much respect and appreciation
for those animals. And I'll get some feedback from some
of our members who are going to criticize me for
having such such strong positive feelings about these non native species,

(37:31):
but I just can't help it. That's, you know, sorry, everybody.
I love them. I enjoy pursuing them, I enjoy eating them.
I just enjoy the fact that they're here. I appreciate
them very much. And again, I've never been to Africa,
and I'd love to see all these various species that
I've hunted in New Mexico in their native habitat. But
my guess is that their native habitat looks probably pretty

(37:53):
similar to where I've seen them here.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Well, yeah, I mean, I just so respect those resilient species,
whether talking about a Hem's book and that thrives in Namibia,
and Namibia is where you find the Kalahari Desert, the
Namib Desert. The Namib Desert has some of the oldest
sand dunes on the planet. And I just see, I've
always appreciated really resilient species, such as you know, Rehem's

(38:18):
book or a great white shark. You know, it's just
admire them greatly. And you mentioned bison, and we're talking
about similarities, and one stor I'd like to share with
you actually involves my ancestors. So my ancestors were Dutch.
You know. The first Dutch arrived the Cape Town, South Africa,
and it was Jan van Uribic and he arrived in

(38:39):
sixteen fifty two. And so my ancestors saw game animals
such as the Bonte book as competitors for the resources
with their cattle if that makes sense. They thought the
game animals were eating all of the resources, which would
prevent their cattle from thriving, and so my ancestors unfortunately
killed off many of the game animals, including the bonte Book. So,

(39:04):
the bonte Book conservation story, it's considered one of the
most dramatic turnarounds for a large mammal when we back
it up a little bit. I love language, Jesse, and
so I just want to give your listeners a little
language lesson here Hem's book, bonte Book spring book. The
word book spelled be okay is kind of like our

(39:25):
word for gazelle or antelope okay. And so a bonte
Book is a beautiful gazelle. It is chocolate brown in
color with white lines coming down from its face, and
it's got a white belly one and a half curls
to its black horns. And one of the only reasons why,
if not the only reason why the Wonta Book didn't

(39:46):
go extinct, is because it cannot jump. Because by the
nineteen thirties, the population of bonte Book was down to
seventeen animals, and they were herded up by a farmer
and they were put on a piece of land with
a fence and they the population grew to be an

(40:07):
estimated about a one hundred animals by the end of
that year, and you know, by about thirty years later,
by nineteen sixty nine, the population had grown up to
one hundred and now we have over three thousand, five
hundred BoNT the book in Southern Africa and South Africa,
and so again, you know, the species was almost killed

(40:28):
off because of humans, but also brought back because of
the conservation efforts of humans. And again it's just a
pretty interesting thing that you know, they were able to
make a comeback partly because they can't jump fences and
so they were you know, stuck in this area so
that their population could expand. And then they were reintroduced
into various areas around South Africa, including bone Book National Park,

(40:51):
which is just down the road from where I grew up.
And so we actually that's one of the biggest game
animals that you'll find on the nature reserve where I
grew up, is the Bonte Book.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
You know, it is really interesting to consider all of
the parallels that are being discussed here. I mean, the
story of the Bunte Book. I'm probably pronouncing that wrong.
But I'm doing my best. But the story of that
beautiful animal compared to the bisoner so similar, right, I
mean as far as being on the brink of extinction
and then coming back. And also the story of our

(41:23):
Mexican gray wolves. You know, the lobo here in New
Mexico is down to seven animals in existence on the
planet at one point. And talk about a highly controversial species.
You start talking about wolves and wolfree introduction. You're no
stranger to that in Montana, obviously, you're very familiar with it.
But there's a lot of controversy surrounding the wolf ree

(41:46):
introduction and the Mexican wolf recovery program.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
We're now up to about two hundred.

Speaker 1 (41:50):
And forty one Mexican wolves in the wild in New
Mexico and Arizona combined, and those are down in the
Healer region. But that's one of the reasons they're so
common versial is because of the human wildlife conflict. Like
you were talking about before, you know, the predation that
that wolves have on cattle.

Speaker 3 (42:08):
There's even a contingency.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
Within the hunting community that really opposes the wolves because
of the impact they have on game species like elk
and deer I personally, and the position of the Mexican
Wildlie Federation is we really appreciate native wildlife, we appreciate
healthy intact ecosystems, we appreciate biodiversity, and so we're excited
to see the Mexican wolf recovery program on a really

(42:32):
positive trajectory. We're really looking forward to the time that
the species will be considered recovered and then management can
be turned over to the state and they can be
effectively managed like other species across the state. But the
parallels that you're talking about are just really, really great,
And I've got I've got so many questions, but I'm
gonna I have to prioritize them here a little bit

(42:52):
because otherwise we'll be we'll be on podcasts for twelve
hours or something, and I know you have a lot
of other things to do, but I have to just
ask this question. When you were talking about Zamibian, I
know you're doing a lot of work down there. Now,
that's a place where you're spending some time. You mentioned
I think some of the surrounding countries, and one of
those was Congo, right if I heard you correctly, And

(43:16):
it reminded me a number of years ago, I was
fortunate to do a television program with Anthony Bourdain and
we did. Yeah, we did a TV show for Parts
unknown here in New Mexico, and it was a fabulous experience.
We had such an amazing time together. It was just
a real gym of a person. I mean, Anthony Bourdain

(43:37):
was a fascinating individual and someone I'm very very honored
to have known.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
But when I picked him up.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
Here in New Mexico, he had just returned from Congo,
and the stories that he told about the security concerns,
he actually told me that that was the most unsafe
he has ever felt in his entire life, I mean,
and he explain details and step by step what he'd
experienced while they're in the country trying to film the show,

(44:05):
which I don't think ever got filmed. I think they
fled the country before the production even.

Speaker 3 (44:11):
Completed because of safety concerns.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
And I'm just wondering if that's something you have to
deal with, or if you feel like you're generally in
areas that are fairly safe, or what your take is
on that.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
It was a great question. I know this is a
podcast and your listeners can't see me, but I'll just
share that I do have blonde hair all the way
down my back, and it doesn't necessarily help me when
I'm traveling alone in many of these places. It's kind
of it's not a great way to blend in. And
so when I'm traveling in places where intuitively I feel

(44:45):
like it might be best if I blend in a
little bit more, I'll shove all my hair into a big,
oversized hat and wear baggy clothes. And my dad's always
taught me to walk with a presence and to make
eye contact with people, depending on the culture and if
eye contact is allowed in that area. But and just
try my very best to be as aware as I
might be in the back alleys of New York City

(45:07):
or in the bushes in Africa. You know, when I'm
in an African country where I am not the apex
predator and I feel the hair on the back of
my neck stand up, there's a good chance as a
lion nearby. And I feel like we at one point
we're much more connected with those instincts than we are now.
And maybe it has something to do with how plugged

(45:28):
in and we are to technology, but I still feel
like that's down deep if you look for it, and
if you spend time in nature and sit with yourself,
that you'll see that if you are quiet and you
listen and you tune in, you can start to feel
what's around you. I trust animals wildlife much more than
I do humans. I feel like animals are much more predictable,

(45:49):
especially if you learn their body language than humans are.
So a lot of the times people like, oh, man,
did you feel safe when you're out there with the
lions and the leopards and the hyenas, And yes, you know,
you read the body language of the animal. Make sure
you give them lots and lots of space. For example,
with a crocodile or a hippo, you never want to

(46:09):
get in the way of their escape plan. That can
be attributed to almost every species, right, so that a
lot of the times for a hippo and a crocodile
their home, they're safe places back in the water. So
if you're between them and the water, get out of
the way, you know, and then that could actually help
prevent a lot of those encounters. And so but with humans,
just try my very very best to not allow fear

(46:34):
to cage me in and prevent me from traveling to
the places I want to go to. That said, Zambia
is one of the safest countries that I've ever traveled
to within the continent of Africa. I have over fifty
four countries within the continent of Africa, and every country
is so very, very different. And the Democratic Republic of
the Congo does border Zambia to the north, it's a

(46:55):
completely different story. When you cross the border. Currency changes,
language change, interactions change. Your overall feeling of safety is
going to definitely change. But when I was in Zambia,
speaking from the perspective of South African because my father
South African, my mother's American. You know, in South Africa,
we locked the doors all the time, We have the

(47:16):
windows rolled up, We locked the doors, you don't leave
any belongings in your car. It wasn't the case in Zambia.
And you know, I think part of the reason for
that is Zambia, unlike many of the surrounding countries, like
the Democratic Republic of the Congo, has not experienced intense
civil war and PTSD like some of the surrounding countries have.

(47:37):
They have, you know, had elements of that, but not
to the extreme of what has happened and what continues
to happen in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And
so you know, if you're listening and you're like, man,
I really want to go to the African continent and
I'd also like to be involved with wildlife conservation, I
would highly recommend that you look into Zambia because it

(47:57):
is a very safe place and you'll be welcomed by
a an ocean of smiles. And you know, we have
over seventy two languages spoken in Zambia, but a lot
of the people speak at least five languages, in English
being one of them. And Game Rangers International has a
phenomenal volunteer program that lasts three weeks, and so, you know,
I think it's wonderful when people can donate money money

(48:20):
to conservation efforts, but when you're you're doing that, I
think it's very important too to actually look at what
percentage of that money you're donating is actually going to
the on the ground efforts. And so donating money is important,
but you know, also using your hands to make a
difference is very important. And so with this volunteer program

(48:40):
in Zambia with Game Rangers International, you spend three weeks
there and the program itself costs two five hundred dollars
and that covers your lodging and your food and your transport.
And you spend one week in Lusaka at the Elephant
Nursery and those are the elephant calfs who have just
been rescued and a lot of them are emaciated and struggling.

(49:06):
They feed them every three hours with special formula that
is blended depending on the needs of that animal, based
on the veterinarian that's been working with them. Once they
get to the level of being a subadult elephant, then
they get relocated to the Elephant Release Facility in Kafui
National Park, which is a national park the size of
Belgium in Zambia. And the whole process of taking an

(49:31):
rescued elephant orphan calf from being rescued to reintroducing them
to the wild takes anywhere between eight to thirteen years.
And they have one keeper that stays with them. It's
like their new mother. And when they go to that
Elephant Release Facility, that's where they're learning to become an elephant.
So you spend one week at the nursery, then you
spend one week at the Elephant Release facility in Kafui

(49:51):
National Park. The elephants go for a walk twice a
day and that's where they learn to graze. That's how
they learn that lions and hyenas are not friends. That's
how they start to mingle with other herds to see
if they can be accepted into that herd. And then
on their own, the elephant decides not to come back
to the enclosure and they become wild on their own.

(50:13):
And then you do spend one week with the Special
Anti Potun Unit as a volunteer, and it is the
bread and butter for that organization to have volunteers come
and spend three weeks with them. They take five volunteers
at a time and it is life changing because you're
living in a tent where very well outside your tent
there could be a leopard or a lion, or a
hippo or an elephant, and you're using your hands to
make a difference. And it is making a difference in

(50:35):
Zambia and that is spilling into the surrounding countries as
they look at that model of conservation and how it's
not only helping wildlife but also helping the communities there.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Wow, well, I'm in on that deal. Like that sounds
like an absolute dream. You just piqued my interest big time.
So I'm going to have a follow up question. But
before I ask that question, say the name of the
organization one more time, just so folks can google it.
And I certainly am going to be one of those folks.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
Game Rangers International and their website is game Rangers International
dot org and they have phenomenal volunteer programs. It lasts
three weeks. They take five volunteers at a time. They're
a wide variety of ages. I just encouraged a friend
of mine who just graduated from high school and he

(51:25):
went there at age eighteen by himself and spent three
weeks in Zambia by himself at the age of eighteen,
and it was life changing. And the best part is too.
You know, you end your trip after you spend that
week with a special anti poaching unit. They take you
to Victoria Falls. It's one of the natural wonders of
the world. In the Tonga language, we call it musi Otuna,

(51:45):
which means the smoke that thunders. And so you end
this volunteer program at one of the natural wonders of
the world, and you can add on a week if
you'd like to just spend some time exploring the Zambizi
reverwer or Africa, and I'd highly recommend it. You know,
we haven't really talked too much about me running rivers,
but the Zambizi River is one of the most phenomenal

(52:05):
rivers in the world. And unfortunately, there is a proposal
to build a dam on the Zambizi called the Batoka
Gorge Dam, and that would flood all of the rapids
of the Zambizi up until rapid number two. So when
you end this program, you'll end the Zambizi and hopefully
you take the time to connect with the communities there
and see why they don't want that dam put in

(52:26):
because the commercial rafting on the Zambizi and the fishing
that happens for tigerfish is very significant for the communities,
both on the Zambia side and the Zimbabwe side.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah, you know, it seems like that there would be
some lessons from what we've done here in North America
that could be shared with some of the people trying
to make the mistakes that we've made here.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
You know, here in the United States, particularly in the
western US.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
Idaho is kind of the epicenter I would say for
dam removal efforts, Like we've realized that damming up all
of these wild, free flowing rivers was not a great
idea and that it has had significant negative impacts on
people and wildlife and ecosystems and overall health of the land.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
And so thank you for your efforts on that.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
One last question on that, and then I want to
jump into some of the river running stuff, particularly your
upcoming trip to Alaska. I want to hear what that
trip's going to be, like, you know, walk us through
a step by step of what that's going to entail
and why it's such a significant trip from an environmental
health standpoint, like from an educational outreach perspective, why that
trip is so significant. But before I do that, what

(53:33):
type of immunization challenges have to be faced if one
is planning to go to Zambia to volunteer. I mean,
I would imagine there's some number of immunizations and stuff
that have to be taken out. That's way it used
to work, at least. I've had friends that have gone
to Africa for various things, and it seems like there
was always a fair amount of preparation required with regard

(53:56):
to doctors visits ahead of those trips.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Yeah, so you can, you know, look up online to
see all the things that are recommended. But you're going
to want to make sure that you're vaccinated for hepatitis
A and B, you want to be considered of typhoid
fever and yellow fever. And then for Zambia, the main
thing is is malaria. And so there are many different

(54:21):
medications that can be taken orally for malaria, and you
just want to really be mindful to make sure that
you take one that is not going to cause you
to hallucinate. There's you know, some people they the reaction
to malaria medications can be pretty extreme. You know, I've

(54:43):
met people before who had to go back home because
of the response that they had to the malaria meds.
So just make sure that you talk to your doctor
about the malaria med and you put a little bit
more caution into that. But again, like I just I
spent forty days in Zambia and and I was just
annihilated by mosquitos, and I was definitely in areas where

(55:04):
there was malaria, and I just made sure I stuck
to my malaria meds. I take my malaria meds in
the morning because a lot of the malaria meds do
mess with your dreams a bit. And so if I
take I recommend when people do malaria meds, just take
your malaria meds at the same time every day. Do
it first thing in the morning. That way, it doesn't
affect your sleep too much. And just don't worry too much.

(55:28):
Just make sure that you that you do take those
meds every single day, and you and you, and you
continued after you return home. And yeah again, I just
was eaten alive by mosquitos when I was in Zambia,
and they're probably the most dangerous animal on the African continent,
the mosquito, you know, because of malaria. But it's not
a reason not to travel to Africa. You just want

(55:48):
to make sure that you you do your research, you
talk to your doctor, and yeah there there there are
certainly vaccines that are recommended before you travel, and sometimes
when you travel within African countries there's vaccines that are
fired before you go there. And then of course and
then tetanus too. Make sure you get a technis shop.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah, thank you, Mandela. I appreciate that. Thank you for
that explanation. The wheels are turning in my brain right
now big time. So I really appreciate that you mentioned
earlier this river trip in Alaska, and I can't wait
to hear more about this trip, what it entails, what
you're going to be doing, where you're going to be going,
and why it's so significant with regard to the to

(56:29):
the all of the work and advocacy you do for conservation.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
Yeah, before we jump to Alaska, I just want to
mention one thing about the Zambizi River and lessons from
the past that we can learn from as we continue
to move forward in terms of how we interact with rivers.
You know, I think it's pretty amazing what's happening right

(56:55):
now with the successful dam removal. It really brings me
a lot of hope, and that means a lot in
the world of conservation, because it can often feel like
pushing a boulder uphill, but to be with conservation leaders,
like for example, at the National Wildlife Federation's annual meeting,
I was so inspired by all the people there, yourself,
included the Zambizi River, you know, the first man made

(57:21):
reservoir that could be seen from space. They say was
the Koreba Dam and the Kriba Dam was built between
nineteen fifty five nineteen fifty seven, some say nineteen fifty
seven nineteen sixty two. But basically between the period of
time that dam was built, they displaced and relocated fifty
seven thousand people. And those people they used to have

(57:44):
farms on the banks of the Zambizi and some of them,
the majority of them, were relocated to an area where
there wasn't any water. And unfortunately, we're still seeing how
that can affect generations afterwards. You know, if you're a
farmer and your entire family is relocated to an area
where there isn't any water, what's your backup plan? What

(58:05):
are you going to resort to? And I did interview
a guide in Zambia who shared that his family, you know,
his father was forced to become a subsistence poacher because
that was the only option, and you know, he wanted
to take care of his family, make sure there was
food on the table, but they couldn't farm because of
where they were relocated to. So the Zambizi River itself

(58:26):
is sixteen hundred miles long. It bubbles up from the
forest in northwestern Zambia. It curls into the drc Angola
and then the upper Zambizi has a big floodplain. The
middle Zambizis from the base of Victoria falls to the
Koreba Dam and then the lower Zambizi flows into the

(58:47):
Indian Ocean. And you know, they believe that that dam
also separated Yami Yammy from Kitapo and Yami Yami is
a Tonga river god. He's got the body of a
snow and the head of a crocodile. And lots of
tremors were felt when that dam was built, and to
this day there's tremors where they believe that Nami Yami

(59:09):
is beating against the wall of the dam to get
to Quitapo his wife, and his wife she's like a mermaid.
And so that, you know, it's just a lot of
lore around what happened when they built that dam in
the late nineteen fifties and how it's continuing to affect
people today. And I'm trying to remind folks of that
when we continue our efforts to try to prevent the

(59:32):
construction of the Batoka Gorge Dam. Just kind of seeing
what happened when the Cariba Dam was built, moving from
the Zambizi River. So the you know, Zambizi means the
great river moving from that river up to the Alsek.
So I work as an expedition whitewater guide. I mainly
work in the Grand Canyon on the Colorado River, been

(59:54):
working on the Grand Canyon since twenty eleven. And Middle
Fork the salmon main salmon. I work in Morocco. I
work on the Zambizi. I work on the Orange River
in the Mibi and South Africa. But I'll tell you what.
The rivers in Alaska have got my attention, specifically the
Alsek and the Tachinchini rivers. And so those two rivers

(01:00:16):
slice through the world's largest non polar ice field, and
the Alsek is about one hundred and sixty miles long.
Our expedition begins in the Yukon Territory just outside of
Haines Junction, and we end in Dry Bay in the
Gulf of Alaska. And you know, it's some of the

(01:00:36):
world's largest concentration of both coastal and interior grizzly bears.
It's not uncommon to land on the beach at Camp
and see a massive grizzly bear footprint right next to
a wolf and no other human footprints because no one
else is there. There's very few companies that actually run
those rivers, unlike the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon,

(01:00:57):
and so a heightened level of awareness when you're dealing with,
you know, water that is coming off of the ice field.
You know that river. It's a glacial river, so the
water is in the thirties, it's very cold. We wear
dry suits. And my last expedition that took off in

(01:01:19):
July of twenty twenty three, the water the river was
one hundred and five thousand cubic feet per second when
we hit Dry Bay in the Gulf of Alaska. There's
a lot of water and the river. I would really
encourage you, if you're inspired to learn more, to actually
just pull up Google Earth and look up the Alsek
River and zoom in there and you'll see these hanging

(01:01:40):
glaciers coming in from both sides. And I just never
seen a river behave the way that the Alsek River
behaves because of the glaciers and how it's constantly changing.
You know, you might have taken a certain r among

(01:02:01):
the braided channels two weeks ago, but the river's completely
shifted and it's a different route today, and we have
a different approach to when the river dumps into the
glacial lake, you actually will get your binoculars out and
look to see where the icebergs are pushed, because that

(01:02:22):
lake is formed by a glacier. You hear thunder all
day and into the night. The sun doesn't set, so
it is light out all the time, but you'll hear
this thunder in the background when you're on those lakes,
and that's the sound of the glacier caving and these
icebergs forming in the lake. And the wind, which is
usually a word that we don't say when we're on
the river. It's the W word because you never want

(01:02:43):
to say it, especially if it's not blowing, because in
a sudden it will start to blow. And if you
think the wind blows in the Grand Canyon, I invite
you to go to Alaska and experience what it's like
up there, because it's a whole different story when the
wind blows in Alaska. But the wind will blow all
those icebergs to the top of the lake where the
river is dumping into the lake. You need to actually
scout your entrance to the lake to make sure that
the river doesn't just push you into the icebergs, because

(01:03:05):
these icebergs are the size of you know, buildings and houses,
and you don't want to have your teeny tiny little
raft pushed into the middle of those because you'll you
could get squished. And so that's a different approach to
river running for me. You know, in Africa, specifically recently
on a Zambezi, you're looking at holes and breaking waves
and rock walls and undercuts and you know, potentially crocodiles

(01:03:27):
in the eddies below the rapids. But on the Alsek
and Alaska, you know, to be able to look to
see where are the icebergs, where's the current pushing you,
so that you don't end up in the middle of
these icebergs. And then when you row across that lake,
hopefully fingers crossed without the wind blowing you roll across
the lake, and then that lake will dump into the
next section of river and whitewater and maybe have another

(01:03:49):
twenty or thirty thousand cfs and guess what's joining you icebergs.
So you're running whitewater with icebergs around you, and they
don't last, you know, more than a few days, but
for sure the first day after you've left the glacial lake,
there'll be icebergs running the river with you. And I
actually watched an iceberg last year get stuck on a

(01:04:10):
gravel bar and it turned into a hole right in
front of me, and I avoided it. But I just
really it's a heightened level of awareness, whether it's the
icebergs or the bears. You know, I am running the
river with bear spray on my hip because I could
jump off onto shore to tie my boat to a
tree and there could be grizzly right there. So I
have the bear spray on my hip and we have

(01:04:30):
air horns just to make sure that we don't surprise
any bears when we're out there. The bears are certainly
not used to humans. In the morning, we wake up
and make these big fires so that we can heat
up the dishwater and the water for coffee and tea.
We have to burn. Our garbage are rubbish, so we
burn that. Partly because of the bears. We don't want

(01:04:52):
to ever have the smell of garbage with us, so
that the tracks bears, but also for the helicopter portage.
So there's a section of the Alsac River called Turnback Canyon,
and it's well named. It was named by Walt Blackador,
who ran it for the first time and he survived,
but he recommended that others not try it. And so
you have this massive glacial river and then it gets

(01:05:15):
squeezed into a tight gorge where at one point the
tweedsmre Glacier was hanging over on the right and then
you had Blackador on the left. We don't take rafts
through that, and so a helicopter will actually fly in
and fly the rafts over Turnback Canyon. And so that's
partly why we keep our weight to a minimum, trying

(01:05:35):
to create fourteen hundred pound loads that the helicopter can carry.
So we'll take our rafts out of the water, we'll
completely deflate the rafts, we'll wrap the rafts onto the frame.
We'll put all of our boxes in, all of our
food to make nice piles that there the helicopter can
pick up and fly over Turnback Canyon, which is a
seven kilometer stretch of white water. They drop us on
an island right below the canyon, and then we get

(01:05:56):
our hand pumps up and we pump the rafts up
by hand and we cantinue on our way. But it's
a river unlike any that I've ever run. It's it's
pretty amazing to go out onto the glacial lake and
collect ice from the last ice age and put that
in my cooler to keep the the you know, the

(01:06:17):
fresh salmon that was caught on the coast, keep that
cold for my clients. And it certainly is a phenomenal
ecosystem to share with my clients, and also to observe
as the temperature increases and the permafrost continues to melt,
seeing how that's changing that ecosystem and also the infrastructure

(01:06:42):
up there in Alaska, and actually to see it in
real time. My perspective being, you know, a guide in
their thirties, and I work with a lot of guides
who have been down there for over you know, twenty years,
and to hear them talk about what it used to
look like, what it looks like now, and to see
pictures as well, has been a pretty eye opening for
me as I continue to try to educate myself and

(01:07:03):
others in ways in which we can mitigate and adapt
to a changing climate.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Wow, well that was.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
A spectacular and vivid explanation, and the idea that one
day you're dodging crocodiles in Africa, the next day you're
dodging icebergs and sleeping with grizzly bears.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
Is that's about as much of a contrast as there is.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
When you were talking about Turnback Canyon, that reminded me
of the first big pack rafting trip I did in
Alaska in twenty sixteen. I was with a buddy of
mine and we were on the forty Mile River system
and we were chasing moose, and neither one of us
were experienced river runners, you know. We'd rented these inflatable
rafts out of Fairbanks from a guy there, and we

(01:07:45):
were so underqualified and underprepared and didn't know what we're doing.
But when we hit the middle fork of the forty
mile River, there's a section there called the Kink, which,
of course we're not talking about near the volume of
water that you're explaining. This is much much all the river,
but it's called the kink because the river channel gets
squished down to this tiny narrow canyon. And so I

(01:08:11):
kind of have some experience to help me to visualize
what you're describing and we had to portage around that. Unfortunately,
we didn't have a helicopter, so we had to take
all of our gear out and deflate the rafts. And
these are just kind of one person kayaks, you know,
each of what we were floating in was just a
one person vessel. And it was probably less than a
mile or maybe close to it, probably between three quarters

(01:08:31):
of a mile and a mile.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
To get around that section.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
But that was almost an all day ordeal, you know,
to get all of our gear out and deflate the rafts,
load up our packs, make the hike, and you're, you know,
you're you're trying to navigate across tussocks and just that
that landscape is hard to walk through. You know, in
New Mexico, if I think about traveling a mile, it
seems like a pretty casual stroll. But there are places

(01:08:55):
in Alaska where a mile is a very very long.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
Way and it's difficult to travel.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
So when you're going I think you said seven or
seven and a half kilometers, is the helicopter transporting you
and your clients also, or do you have to make
that track by foot?

Speaker 2 (01:09:09):
No, the helicopter does transport the clients and the guides,
and it's quite a logistical puzzle for the trip leader
because you want to make sure that should the weather change,
and we're talking about Alaska here, so the weather could
easily change in a very quick period of time. Should
the weather change, you know who's downstream and who's upstream

(01:09:30):
of Turnback Canyon and what supplies do they have and
they you know, they have a SAT phone, do they
have a shelter, do they have their warm clothes, do
they have food? And so that definitely plays a role
in terms of the logistics in planning. But the helicopter
will fly the clients and the guides, and usually the
clients are flown separate from the gear and so that

(01:09:52):
they can just focus on, you know, taking the gear
over and dropping it off safely on that gravel bar
that downstream of Turnback Canyon and then we pump it
all up by hand and continue on our way. And
it's just a phenomenal experience. I highly recommend folks if

(01:10:12):
you get the opportunity to do it private trip, you know,
or a commercial trip, to go and experience that. Whether
it's in Africa or on the ALSEC. The rivers are
an amazing way to explore new areas, and I do
recommend that you go with someone who's experienced and you
have the right equipment. And that's you know, right this

(01:10:34):
time of year, as we are experiencing spring runoff all
over the West, just once again important who you going with,
what's the level of experience, and what equipment are you taking.
It's always something to keep in mind and always keep
an eye downstream, whether it's for the strainers that could
be in the form of a down tree, or suddenly
the river gets tightened to a narrow area and you

(01:10:57):
don't know what's down there. Stop, check it out and
bote with people that respect when you decide you don't
want to run something and you'd rather walk around it.

Speaker 3 (01:11:05):
Yeah, well, really really great advice.

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
So thank you for sharing that, Mandela, and thank you
for allowing us to kind of go with you on
some of these adventuress I live vicariously through you and
your shared experiences and some of the photography that you've
shared over the years. It's really just inspiring. And thank
you for your conservation ethic. Thank you for being so
mindful about the importance of other places and the cultures

(01:11:32):
that exist in those places, and the history that shaped
the various regions that you spend so much time. You know,
when I was a kid, there used to be a
cartoon that would come on television called Well, I don't
remember what it was called, but used to say, where
in the world is Carmen San Diego. It was like
she was just like this cartoon character that was all
over the world everywhere, Like every episode she's in some

(01:11:53):
different exotic place. I feel like you're the real life
Carmen san Diego. But we've been going for over an hour,
and I know you've got a super busy schedule all
the time, so I don't want to keep you too
much longer, but I want to give you the opportunity
to share any wisdom that you might want with the listeners.
Also let them know where they can find you if
they want to, if they're interested in trying to book

(01:12:14):
a trip, or listen to episodes of your podcast, your
radio show, any of the things you're doing, all of
that stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
So the floor is yours.

Speaker 2 (01:12:22):
Oh, thank you so much, Jessie. You know, if you're
interested in following my journey, I'd say that more of
my journey is giving a voice to people around the
world who might not otherwise have the opportunity to share
their knowledge, and so my voice isn't a huge part
of the podcast, but I hope to ask questions that

(01:12:43):
invoke a story. So you can certainly follow my adventures
as they unfold around the world by subscribing to the
Trail Less Traveled podcast wherever you get your podcasts. And
I do have a website, trail lesstravel dot net is
the website and again episode six hundred and four is
coming out soon here. It's been recorded on location in

(01:13:05):
over twenty six countries and it's dedicated to documenting humanity
by collecting stories and sounds from some of the most
locations around the world. And a lot of those stories
have to do with adventure and conservation because for me,
those run parallel. You can learn more about the organization
that I work with in Zambia, Game Rangers International, by

(01:13:27):
just googling Game Rangers International. I would highly recommend that
you join them in Zambia. Go there, volunteer and spend
three weeks on the frontlines of conservation, using your hands
to make a difference. Because you are making a difference,
you know, in Africa. My favorite proverb to share with people.
Is this. If you think you're too small to make
a difference, then you've never spent the night with a mosquito.

(01:13:51):
So just please just know that you can and will
and do make a difference every little thing that you do.
And one of my mentors is one of my heroes,
is doctor Jane Goodall. And you know, when she went
to spend time in Africa writing and documenting wildlife, most
everybody told her she was crazy and she shouldn't do it,

(01:14:12):
and all these things. And I still notice that in
our culture today this like element of fear. So when
you have these dreams to go to an African country,
say it's Zambia, you may find that there's people in
your life that encourage you not to because of what
they've heard on the news or whatever. But just make
sure you do your own research. And you know, Jane Goodall,

(01:14:34):
she has these three bits of advice that I always
like to share with kids when I'm in schools, and
that is work hard, believe in yourself, and take every opportunity.
And that's how I've gotten to where I am today.
I continue to do that. That's my ethic, and I
really do believe that these public lands that we have

(01:14:55):
in the United States are a privilege, and with privilege
comes responsibility, right, and so just getting informed and engaged.
And I do encourage if you're listening to this and
you're not already a member of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation,
please become a member. You know, if you're listening to
this and you're in Montana, you can still become a
member of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation even though you're

(01:15:17):
up in Montana. Same with if you're in New Mexico
and you want to support public lands access and habitat
up here in Montana, like, let's support each other, you know,
to become a member of the Montana Wildlife Federation. We
just I'm on the board of directors for the Montana
Wildlife Federation and we just launched our new youth membership,

(01:15:38):
and so I'm encouraging people that to give the gift
of conservation, you know, rather than maybe giving some kind
of object to a child for twenty five dollars a year,
you can give them the gift of conservation. That's a
membership to the Montana Wildlife Federation. And we send out
native seed packets and kits to make survival bracelets. And

(01:15:59):
you know, part of the reason why I was really
pushing for youth membership is because all of the conservation
leaders that I interviewed in Zambia, they all were a
part of conservation from a very young age. They were
part of what was called conservation clubs. And so there's
actually community coordinators in Zambia who ride around on these

(01:16:21):
little dirt bikes and they go to villages and they
deliver conservation curriculum and it involves information on a how
to coexists with elephants and you know, why an elephant
is more valuable alive than it is dead, and many
other you know, different approaches to coexistence and conservation. So
I just think it's so important that it plays a

(01:16:43):
role in a child's life. And you know, if you're
not able to do that, if you're not able to
financially become a member of one of these nonprofits today,
then another thing you could do is invite someone to
go out fishing with you. Because I recently read a
study that showed like a lot of the reasons that
people hadn't gone hunting or fishing is because they'd never
been invited. So if that's something that you do, often

(01:17:06):
invite a friend who has never done it before, because
you could sincerely change their life. And I just want
to end by saying thank you Jesse for all of
the work that you do and will continue to do.
And I just cannot wait to come and visit you
in New Mexico and to continue to support the work
that you are doing from AFAR Well.

Speaker 1 (01:17:23):
Fantastic, Mandela can't wait to host you and thank you
for everything. And you're such an inspiration and I appreciate
you taking the time out of your super busy schedule
to join me and the listeners and share a little
bit of your story.

Speaker 3 (01:17:36):
So thank you so much and keep up the great work.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
Helloh, thank you. Thanks for listening to the yahi Va
podcast produced by Drift with Outdoors.

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Ep. 40: The Trail Less Traveled

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