Ep. 41: Behind the Scenes at NMWF

Join NMWF's executive director Jesse Deubel as he talks with the president and president-elect of NMWF's board of directors. After spending his career with the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish, John Crenshaw has invested twelve years leading NMWF as a board member and perhaps as the longest serving president of the board. John shares some very interesting history about the organization and numerous issues that hunters and anglers in New Mexico care about. As John prepares for his second retirement, Jason Kerkmans has been elected to lead NMWF as the new board president. Jason recalls his first interaction with the organization and shares some intriguing facts about his significant contribution to NMWF long before he was even a member. John, Jason and Jesse engage in discussion that provides a peek behind the curtain as to how NMWF operates and the way decisions are made. If you're inspired by what you hear, give NMWF a call at [phone] or send an email to [e-mail] to inquire about how you can increase your level of involvement in New Mexico conservation. Enjoy the listen!  

For more info:
NMWF

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, everybody, Welcome back to another episode of the iv
OP podcast. I've got two very special guests on the
show today, two instrumental members of the New Mexico Wildlife
Federation who actually serve on the board of directors for
this organization. So a lot of folks are familiar with
the fact that New Mexico Wildlife Federation is a nonprofit organization.

(00:24):
More specifically, we're a five oh one C three nonprofit,
which means we're an advocacy organization. We provide education. We,
as you all know, are very involved with the lawmaking
process in the state and are active at the state legislature.
But we're not a political organization. We're nonpartisan. And what
we're doing in the state legislature and we're working with

(00:44):
our state lawmakers or were working with our State Game
Commission or with our federal land managers, is providing education
and advocating on behalf of the hunters and anglers and
outdoor enthusiasts of New Mexico. And a lot of folks
see me in the building in the roundhouse at the
State Game Commission meetings because I am the executive director

(01:06):
of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation my name is Jesse Dubell,
and the structure of a five oh one C three
is really unique in that my job is to manage
the staff and the day to day operations of the organization,
but the actual direction of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation
is steered by our Board of Directors. So with me

(01:28):
today are two unsung heroes, two people who do a
tremendous amount of work, but they do it behind the scenes.
There are two of our board members. Now we have
a full board, and not everybody is here being represented today,
but with us today we have John Crenshaw, who's the
longest serving current member of the board and the current
board president of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation, and we're

(01:51):
about to undergo a leadership transition. After twelve years of
incredible service as board president, we're now trying to positioning
to a new board president, dude, leader of the board,
and that is Jason Kirkman. The New Mexico Wildlife Federation
presents the Ahiva Podcast. I'm so fortunate to have both

(02:12):
on the show today and we're going to start with you. John,
do you want to introduce yourself, maybe talk a little
bit about your career and how you came to serve
on the board of the New Mexico Wildlife Federation.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Okay, take a long date, breath and a fresh cup
of coffee. I get Wendy. How I got involved basically
because from fifty years ago, this last February one, I
joined the Game and Fish Department as a public information

(02:44):
officer and their magazine editor. My background was in journalism
on newspaper and magazine reporting. I was with the state
before I joined the Game Department. I was with the
Department of Tourism and an associate editor on a Mexico magazine,
the Traveling Tourism Thing. The chief of the Game Department's

(03:09):
public Information office seemed to like my work and then
basically recruited me, and I hesitated a.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
While, and then I.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
Decided I'd like to give it a shot, and so
I went over as a kind of a lower level
entry guy with writing news releases and editing the magazine
and writing stories for it and things like that, and
I found out it was a.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Pretty good fit for me. I grew up on.

Speaker 2 (03:44):
Ranches, and a lot of people in those days on
there were off farms and ranches or small towns and
I liked what we were doing and who I was
working with, So it was it was good that way
and kind of a wrinkle that we won't see anymore.

(04:05):
In the mid seventies, if you were male and could
had a pulse, they required you to get certified as
a peace officer and become a game board And so
I went through the school, the basic recruit school at
the Game Department and a five week of course there

(04:29):
with the state and became certified officer in it. It
was really interesting in how that shaped and helped my
career in my main job because I was out day
and night during busy hunting seasons that's when the office

(04:50):
staff got sent out, or peak angling seasons. I did
angry patrol and hunter patrol, night patrol, all those things,
and uh, it did shape me and my attitude. And
even when I brought to the Wildlife Federation, because although
I was also one hundred and England myself, i'd always

(05:12):
everything I did was on private land. I grew up
on those that kind of ranch and I really got
an introduction, uh, and I got to really mix with
the hunters and anglers on their own ground, on their
own terms, and I learned a lot, uh, and I
really became empathetic with their plight. Access to public lands,

(05:39):
uh was not the problem that has become as much anyway,
And trying to draw licenses, you know, it's always been
a frustrating thing for everybody. But it was, Uh, it
was just really instructive, and it did help me as
I went on and I was trying as I went

(06:01):
on up through the ranks, I was able to help
shape policy that I thought would help, for instance, simplify
regulations and rules. And I'm sure every hunter and every
angler ever since and before said I can't begin to
understand all these twists and turns and how do.

Speaker 3 (06:19):
I'm not violate?

Speaker 2 (06:21):
So anyway, that was kind of we're there, and I
twenty three years and five months that I served there,
and eventually I retired as the chief of the division,
and it kind of it also, and we're kind of
maybe segue.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Into where we're going, I think.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
But while I was with the Department, the New Mexico
Wildlife Federation was very active. I initially kind of thought
they were a little bit of a pain in the
keyster because I you know, how could anybody question all
the wisdom of this Department. They had good reason. You know,

(07:02):
no agency is perfect, and we're there to serve them,
and the Wildlife was the lesson I learned along the
way too. So I saw that they could be very
effective and that they could move legislation, they could stop
bad things from happening to the department, and I learned

(07:27):
to appreciate them very deeply.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
Well that's fantastic, John, So what year did you become
a board and what was the specific action that inspired
you to actually join the Board of directors. So you're
familiar with the Wildlife Federation from having dealt with them
while you were at the agency. Then you retire, and
I'm curious how that transition occurred from being an agency

(07:51):
staff to going to essentially work with the organization who
holds the agency accountable.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
Well, I took on almost thirteen year hiatus from all
of it, and somehow they muddled along without me. But
in twenty eleven I happened to see a newspaper article
that there were two bills in the legislature to abolish
the State Game Commission, which is our appointed body that

(08:21):
you know, is the policy making board for the Game
and Fish Department, and to make it as an advisory
board and to combine the State Game and Fish Department
with State Parks Division and make it a subsidiary of
what's now Energy, Minerals and Natural Resources Department. And one

(08:43):
of the other things I'd learned during my long years
with the department was that the State Game Commission, with
all its flaws and it's certainly not perfect, but I
came to recognize that its way ahead of whatever was
in second place. And I kind of blew my stack
a little bit, and I thought of the Wildlife Federation

(09:07):
and wrote an email and said, hey, are you guys
on this and got some information back, and I said, well,
I'll suit up again to help kill this. And so
I met Jeremy Wesbauch, who was our then they had
your job as executive director, and followed him around the
legislature and we killed those bills, and I was real

(09:33):
happy to do it. So that's how I kind of
got re entered and reacquainted, and I was recruited then
with the next board election, and I got a call
from the Federation, hey, sign up, and I did run
for the office and was elected. And so that was

(09:54):
in twenty twelve, and I was just on the board
as an at large member for two years and then
became the director president rather in twenty fourteen, and your predecessor,
media predecessor, Garrett Vanaclausen, became the executive director at the
same time. So kind of had two not entirely rookies,

(10:15):
but we had two new guys on And I've been
here ever since.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
I'm now and of the thirteenth year.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
And that's such a cool story, John, and I can't
tell you how much I appreciate your leadership and mentorship
that you've provided to me over the course of the
last five years. And interestingly, I was also introduced to
this organization by Jeremy Vespach. A lot of our listeners
have heard this story before because I've told it, so
I won't tell the whole story, but I was president
of the United Bow Hunters of New Mexico and Jeremy

(10:46):
Vespach and I worked together in twenty eleven to pass
Senate Bill one ninety six, which changed hunting quotas. Basically
what it did at that time, New Mexico residents were
only getting seventy eight percent of the permits and it
wasn't everything we wanted. The way legislation works, sometimes you
have to negotiate, and sometimes the bill ends up a

(11:08):
little in different format than it started. Some of the
specifics get adjusted through the sausage making processes it's often
referred but in any case, we were successful in getting
residents increased opportunity by taking the seventy eight percent resident
draw pull and moving that up to eighty four percent,
also making all of the draw antler list ELK tags

(11:28):
resident only, and during that in that same bill, we
also got all state wildlife management areas to be exclusive
big game hunting opportunities for New Mexico residents. So so,
Jeremy Vestbach has done a lot for the New Mexico
Wildlife Federation over the years. He's recruited a lot of
the people that continue to work with the organization today.

(11:48):
So really appreciate that story. John, and I also should
let you know our listeners know that you and I
were working together before I ever started at the Federation.
We were serving on a task force that you and
I had the goal, a shared goal. Again, I was
with United bow Hunters of New Mexico at the time,
and you were on the board of the New Mexico
Wilie Federation, but we were trying to protect trapping and

(12:10):
we did at that time. I mean we we held
on for quite a few years, and ultimately we lost
trapping on public lines recently despite our our efforts. But
we have a long, long standing relationship and I just
can't thank you enough, John for the service you provided,
all of the work and the dedication and the time

(12:31):
that you've invested. It's really really means a lot.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Well, thank you, and you're welcome. I've actually had a
pretty good time most most of the time.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Times we don't don't get don't get into too much
of the bad parts, or else we're gonna have Jason
Kirkman's here rethinking, rethinking his decision. So Jason, why don't
why don't you introduce yourself tell our listeners a little
bit about who you are and how you came to
be the president elect of the New Mexico Life Federation.

Speaker 4 (13:01):
Yeah, thank you, Jesse.

Speaker 5 (13:03):
It's great hearing John's story, and I think it's a
good contrast to sort of where I am and how
I sort of came to be because I was maybe
like some of the listeners out there who largely just
benefited from the efforts that John and you and the
Federation have done over the years, and that you know,

(13:25):
I like accessing public land to fish and hunt, and
I didn't really contribute a lot to making sure that
that continued. I'm an avid fly fisherman, and my grandfather
actually is the one who taught meat out of fly
fish when I was about ten years old, and he
was a member of the fly the Federation of fly

(13:47):
Fishers and did a lot of conservation work with tu
here in New Mexico. And I not for any other
reason other than, you know, not sure or how to
not being sure, how to how to introduce myself or
join in with these groups or put forth the effort

(14:08):
to be more active kind of just sat on the
sidelines in a lot of ways. And I actually came
to know the Federation after I went to law school
and and happened to write an article, a legal article
about New Mexico's stream access policy and what the actual

(14:31):
law was. I liked a joke or you know, tell
the anecdote.

Speaker 4 (14:36):
I guess that.

Speaker 5 (14:38):
I think I was mostly just trying to avoid studying
for a contracts final. So if if the contracts final
hadn't been there I might not have ever even gotten
acquainted with you all, but I'm grateful that I did, because.

Speaker 4 (14:49):
What I what I sort of had found.

Speaker 5 (14:52):
Was that the policy wasn't being the law wasn't being
enforced by the state, and in fact, you know, there
was a pretty clear delineation that New Mexico's the public
in New Mexico has a right to the stream to
access the stream beds flat that are privately owned. And

(15:15):
I kind of wrote the article and left it at
that and thought it was a great use of you know,
winter of my life. And the Federation got a hold
of it, and you all did the real work of
getting that in front of more of the public, bringing
it to the legislature, raising the awareness, and then ultimately

(15:36):
pursuing when when you know so many other people don't,
pursuing this through the legal system, to ensure that the
public retains that right and that it actually stays in
the public's hands, which you know, now in my forty
coming up on my forty seventh year, it's so much
more apparent to me how important that is that there

(15:58):
is someone willing, some group of people willing to go
in and make sure that those rights aren't abridged at all,
Whereas you know, the twenty five year old fly fisherman
that I was was was just happy to be out
on the water and take advantage of you know, all
the copious amounts of free time I had back then.

Speaker 1 (16:19):
Yeah, well, I remember, Jason, I remember getting a call again.

Speaker 3 (16:24):
I was with U.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
B and M at the time, but I got a
call from Jeremy Vesbach and he said, hey, what are
your thoughts on stream access? And I didn't know what
he was talking about, necessarily because you know, I grew
up in New Mexico. I'm a lifelong resident, and I
was born in nineteen eighty and I think it was
by eighty four, John, you would remember this. Somewhere in
the early eighties, language got put in the Fishing Proclamation

(16:47):
and the Fishing Rules Book that said anglers cannot trespass
on private land walking and waiting up the river, something
to that effect. And so that happened before I could read.
So from the time I could read until I got
this call from Jeremy Vestbach, I'd always been very very
clear that, you know, accessing water where it crosses private

(17:09):
land would be criminal trespass. That's what had been communicated
by the state. And so when Jeremy asked me that question,
I said, what are you talking about. You know, everybody
knows that that would be trespassing. And he says, well,
I don't think so he said, I'll have Joel give
you a call, and I was. I was a little
confused by the whole thing. But then Joel Gay calls
me and he says, let me send you a copy

(17:30):
of an article that I've got here. And I remember
he told me your name, but he didn't communicate that
in writing at the time. I think because of you know,
various for whatever reasons. It was kind of an anonymous
article at that time. And so he said, here's the article.
The information is all accurate, we've checked it out and
this this is a very very good piece of work,

(17:53):
but we're not attributing it to anybody necessarily. And I
remember that creating some challenge. I'm like, well, you know,
we've got all this information, but we don't have a source,
like there's you know, not someone that we can attribute
it to. And I knew because he had told me verbally,
but he'd asked me not to repeat it. But that's
the first time that I actually was introduced to you

(18:14):
and to your work on this issue. And then it
was in twenty nineteen, after the governor had appointed a
brand new game Commission, that we saw an opportunity to
go to that commission and bring the issue up. And
I don't remember exactly Jason, maybe you do, but it
was somewhere in there that I called you and asked
you for some kind of assistance. I don't remember exactly

(18:35):
what that was, or maybe you called me. Do you
remember how you got reinvolved in twenty nineteen.

Speaker 5 (18:42):
No, you you were the one, I think who reached
out because I hadn't been fully aware of of all
the work even that had been going on behind the scenes.
I my name was on the article, so that you know,
it was easy enough to find out who I was,
but I didn't have any formal sort of efforts as
to advancing it. And I think you know that's where

(19:07):
the work that that you all have done really impressed
me so much.

Speaker 4 (19:10):
And when when we were getting up toward.

Speaker 5 (19:15):
The it was it was, you know, well in advance
of the hearing for the Supreme Court New Mexico Supreme
Court oral arguments around it. But I think maybe some
of the the advanced work in laying that out had
had begun, and and that's how you had come to
contact me. And and really, you know that that point

(19:37):
opened my eyes as to sort of all the efforts
that were being made and continuing to be may made,
both in regard to, you know, protecting that stream access
right and not letting other infringements on the public's rights
go unchecked. Also, which you know, it's a big enough

(19:57):
state with a lot of different public access points, and
people can put up gates and they can they do
these things that that otherwise might go unnoticed if someone
doesn't say, like, hey, that's not right. You know this
is we don't know who the public may be that's
access to that, but we can't you can't just let
that happen without you know, going through the proper channels

(20:18):
and making sure that everything is above board and so.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
Seeing that work actually being done.

Speaker 5 (20:24):
And the efforts you know that that the New Mexico
Wildlife Federation puts toward, amount of time and energy and
money that the Federation puts toward doing that is really
the boots on the ground work that that is necessary
and commendable.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Go ahead, John, Oh well, I'll just jump in. I
I don't think that.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
We we kind of really need to give Jason's article
in the publication.

Speaker 3 (20:56):
It was the pebble in the pond.

Speaker 2 (20:58):
That really created those reading big waves because when the
state representative who had been pushing for review or statutes
or whatever, he was trying to get that settled and
the public waters open to public use, and he got that,
and I believe Jeremy Besbach recommended to him that he

(21:21):
looked at that and take it to the Attorney General's
office and asked for an opinion. And that gentleman is
so lucky. The Railo is his name, and he did that,
and that came out in twenty fourteen in favor of
the public and it cited a State Supreme Court decision
the Red River Cases called in short back in nineteen

(21:44):
forty five. That's so far back that although I was alive,
I was only a few months old when that decision
came down. Like you, Jess, I'd grown up even that
long time. It was just accepted that waiting on the

(22:05):
banks or stepping on the banks of waiting and on
the stream bed, on waters through public or private land
just simply was for boating. And in all innocence. I
was putting out the profession Proclamation as a PIO for
Game and Fish Department, saying, hey, that'strespass. Well we found

(22:29):
out we were wrong about that, And yeah, I did
really get started. In the mid eighties, State Parks was
putting out something that was more in line with what
turned out to actually be the law. So two major
state agencies were given conflicting advice. And I will also
command Jason, speaking of legislature, a bad piece of legislation

(22:54):
in twenty fifteen, the legislature, some of them really didn't
like this Attorney General opinion, and they managed to push
the legislation through to try to undo it. Turned out
that didn't quite work because well that second Supreme Court
decision off that one into a cock tat. But uh,

(23:18):
the Wildlife Federation at that point was in there finding
that legislation, and Jason Kurtman's who was not a member then,
but he was bringing his lawyer lea experience to bear
and uh standing up and helped us, tried to help
us kill it and made really good points. And I've

(23:39):
appreciated that ever since, and thank you. But you had
a really big effect on this and helped again, I
think during the second Supreme Court as the cases were
being prepared to undo the damage. That's the legislature and
the game Commission did well.

Speaker 4 (23:59):
Thank you, John.

Speaker 5 (23:59):
I think I think it was, you know, one of
many pieces that came together. But ultimately, you know, being
part of the board now has been an even greater
thrill for me because I get to to put forth
that effort across a lot of different areas, or at least,

(24:20):
you know, contribute as I can across a lot of
different areas in the federations. The breadth of things that
the Federation takes on and contributes to uh IS is
greater than I could have ever sort of suspected before
I even before I joined.

Speaker 4 (24:39):
It's it's a lot.

Speaker 5 (24:40):
There's a lot of different topics from pollinators to water,
to fences and public you know, purchasing public land and
or purchasing private land and making it public and everything
in between. So you know, for anyone out there who
who thinks like like I used to, that you know,
this is this is new Mexico is a great place

(25:03):
to be an outdoors person, and we have all this
access and it's just there to be be had. I think,
you know, it's worth sitting back and realizing like there's
there's not a guarantee that it's going to stay that
way if we don't put it forth the effort to
protect it, and and working with the Federation, whether it's

(25:23):
you know, on a volunteer basis like the board, or
contributing or or coming to you know, the Wildlife Wednesday events.
You know, somehow getting more involved only benefits you know,
you as a sportsperson, and the state, the public here
in the state of New Mexico equally.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, well said Jason, And that's that's actually a good
segue talking about the board as volunteers because you know,
as our membership knows, I'm a member of the paid staff.
So this is a full time job for me. This
is this is what I do for a living. And
I'm in the game commission meetings, and I'm in the
radio interviews, and you might read my name in the
newspaper as kind of the face of the organization oftentimes,

(26:06):
but the Board of Directors really leads the organization. It's
you guys and the rest of the board who make
the decisions and vote on the policies, vote on the
direction and kind of set the path that then that
I'm tasked with carrying out. So you all create the plan.
I'm curious, but you're doing it as volunteers, you know.
So I'm you know, obviously a full time paid staff

(26:29):
and you're working significant amount of time on a volunteer
basis running the organization. So I'm curious if either of
you would like to elaborate on really what it's like
to serve on this board, because I think a lot
of our listeners would be interested in what what a
service as a member of the board of.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Okay, Andy just well, it's been a great ride, and
it's not quite over for me yet. But I think
one of the things that I really have liked about
being on the board is again being able to influence

(27:08):
those policies and picking up a continuum of work that
had been done in the ten years before I joined
the Federation in the late nineties and right on endto

(27:29):
the early two thousands had become apparently quite moribund and
pretty ineffectual. Early in the two thousands, a different group
came in and took over the leadership of the board.
It was by vote of the membership, and they had
vowed to re establish the Federation as.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Viable and.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
Organization doing the work that we're talking about doing here
back going, and they did that. Jeremy Besbach was the
executive director. They had a very small staff that they
did a lot. They grew the agency or the organization
regrew it, you might say. And I'm proud to stand

(28:19):
on their shoulders because when I came on, they had
managed to get back into the legislature, get some status,
and get some attention. That bill that just talked about

(28:40):
to increase the number of a percentage of draw licenses
that went into the public draw was a pretty major accomplishment.

Speaker 3 (28:51):
And when I came on, I.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Saw, well, that's that's good. And I also early on
we began to recognize that our organization was actually much
more broadly based than we were getting credit for conservation
and environmental issues or sportsmen's issues. And we managed to

(29:17):
build on that. We built bridges between ourselves Wildlife Federation
and non hunting groups. There were some issues that came
up where we were very strongly united and managed to
get together and do some good work. One of them

(29:40):
that I particularly wasn't one. It was fourteen bills over
several years to transfer all most all federal lands over
to state ownership. And we killed all those and it
was infesting the entire Western states, and New Mexico and
Colorado were the only two that old every single bill

(30:01):
that would have either transferred the lands or facilitated the transfer.

Speaker 3 (30:08):
UH.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
And with some of those suspicions down, and as a
hunter and former Game Department guide, UH, some of those
folks are a little suspicious to me and vice versa.
But we have broadened it, and I think we have grown.
And no, we've grown and gained the respect and the

(30:28):
trust and of those other organizations and individuals, and that
includes legislators and game commissioners and UH the Game Department
staff UH to a great degree. And it's a continuum,
and I can certainly foresee that it's going to keep

(30:49):
going right on you.

Speaker 5 (30:52):
You stole my line there, John, I was going to say,
I got to stand on your shoulders, so you're you're
But it's it speaks to one of the real great advantages.
I mean, even though it's a volunteer position, you know,
we we get to be part of this organization that
has been around for more than one hundred years, that

(31:12):
although Leopold you know, helped found and that so many
other sportsmen and women have contributed to over the years.

Speaker 4 (31:20):
That it's it's a history that's.

Speaker 5 (31:26):
Hard to even fathom completely in in being part of that,
I think is kind of reward enough just being able
to put your name in with those people and that
those efforts, that all that's been accomplished and done here
is is a pretty great honor. So maybe we're not
we're not you know, drawing any any money out of this,

(31:48):
but the reward is definitely there. And I think that
you know, we're at that point in the in the
Federation's life where another new set of challenges comes and
because we have such a good strong base and because
we've got you know, leadership like yours, Jesse and the

(32:11):
rest of the staff there, it's all these are all
challenges that the Federation is well in a well positioned
to take on, and so being a part of that
is exciting. I think it's you know, regardless of whether
I'm a volunteer or not, I think just being being
involved in that is a pretty great thrill.

Speaker 2 (32:33):
It is, and I think you will find it enjoyable,
sometimes challenging of course, and I do, though, Jess said,
asked earlier, I think or was getting ready to ask
about what I'm most proud of and certainly having to
help build those bridges and.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Part of a very good group of staff and board members.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
I talk about me, but I just want COG for
sure in this very good will and we have we
come to a position that the Federation had when I
first joined the department and for a couple of decades
after ten fifteen years before it kind of started to slip.

(33:25):
We're respected, we're trusted, and we are able to work
with individuals and organizations and agree to disagree when we
do and sometimes pretty strongly. But we have really broadened it.
And again we've been misjudged sometimes Federation has and I'm

(33:51):
and that goes back into the deep past. This agency
organization has a long history being far more than a
hook and bill club, which is what a lot of
people outside the organization have kind of thought it was.
It was one of our predecessors, jason'son Mine Bellow named

(34:17):
Senator Fred Ross, who was a president of the New
Mexico State Wildlife Federation, who carried the States Endangered Species
Act and got it put into a fact back in
nineteen seventy four, and the Federation was the group that

(34:38):
saw the Share with Wildlife program, which is one where
people can check off their income tax refund and send
it to the Share with Wildlife program and non Game
program in the Department of Game and Fish were now
by spousalclely licensed plates and make a direct donation. But
the Wildlife Federation's one who came up with that and

(34:59):
got it through the legislature until just this year with
the recent passage of a really important piece of legislation
to the Legacy Fund, which is going to fund a
lot of good work with the Department and broadness abilities.
For a long time, Share with Wildlife was the only

(35:22):
state only money coming in to Share.

Speaker 3 (35:25):
With Wildlife and non game programming. And so it's.

Speaker 2 (35:34):
Wider and deeper than it looks like from some outside perspectives.
And I'm proud to have been part of helping grow
that and watching it keep going because I believe it will.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Yeah, thanks John, I appreciate you reflecting on some of
those big accomplishments, because you know, one thing we struggle
with here is staff of the Federation sometimes is communicating
all of the amazing work that's going on. A lot
of folks don't know that the New Mexico Wildlife Federation
was instrumental in the creation of the Vaideorro National Wildlife Refuge. Then,

(36:06):
more recently, we created public access to the Sabi Nooso Wilderness,
which had previously been one hundred percent landlocked. Not too
long after that, we expanded that wilderness area by fifty
five acres, and then the following year created the state's
largest wildlife management area by expanding the Marquees by nearly

(36:27):
fifty five thousand acres. So the amount of work is
pretty impressive. And one of the things from a more
policy perspective that we're continuing to work on is trying
to fix the New Mexico State Game Commission. And we're
not the only state working on that, as I you know,
I have just recently returned from the annual meeting of
the National Wildlife Federation, an organization that we're affiliated with.

(36:50):
We're not a chapter of the National Wildlife Federation, but
they're a partner organization, if you will. I learned that
there's over thirty states across the country where the state
wildlife affiliate of the National Wildlife Federation is dissatisfied with
the structure of their state's Game Commission. So we're not
alone in doing this work, but I do think we're

(37:12):
leading the effort across the country and create an example
that will likely be followed by other states. And it's
interesting as we talk about, you know, making corrections to
the current structure of the Game Commission, to realize that
it was this very organization that was responsible for the
creation of the New Mexico State Game Commission. So the

(37:35):
history certainly runs deep.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Yeah, that was nineteen twenty one, and.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
You've mentioned and we have some really good ideas on
how the Commission can be reformed and not dissolved, because
that's been repeatedly brought up.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Well, you just you know, get rid of them.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
And you have an appointed director of the Department answers
to the Secretary of the Energy, Minerals Natural Resources Department.
And if you really want to see partisan politics take
over wildlife management.

Speaker 4 (38:12):
Just.

Speaker 3 (38:14):
Hide and watch if that happens. It is very concerning.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
Well, we made our first run as federation as far
back as twenty thirteen, and again one of the things
that we've managed to do is we've got quite a
number of organizations on board with reforming the Commission and
making it, keeping it intact and operative the way it's

(38:42):
supposed to work, but also protecting particularly one of our
goals is to protect the commissioners from being fired at
any governor's whim, and it certainly has happened, and that
is a big issue. It's going to be a tough,
tough one. It's not happened so far, but that's a

(39:07):
very important thing. Expanding the mission in the department, presuming,
you know, when as money becomes available, and as another
piece of that, and actually we're way past do for
a license to be in Greece. I know everybody kind
of cringes when they hear that. But the last one
that went into effect in two thousand and six. My

(39:30):
granddaughters were born the year that that build passed and
now they're sophomores in college, so it's been a while.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
Yeah, I wonder what I think a pickup was in
two thousand and six compared to today.

Speaker 5 (39:47):
I think that, you know, these issues all speak to
sort of why the New Mexican Wildlife Federation is in
such a great position to help tackle them. You know,
the lack of partisanship within the Federation is impressive, and
in fact, I would say that, you know, under Jesse's
leadership and yours, John, the Federation has done an incredible

(40:10):
job of reaching out in all directions. So environmentalists and
folks who otherwise you think wouldn't be interested or willing
to partner with a group of hunters are regular collaborators.
And likewise, you know, folks that otherwise may not, you know,

(40:31):
landowners in different groups that otherwise may see the public
rights that the Federation supports as some sort of infringement,
will also work together with the Federation. And if they won't,
the Federation has done an incredible job of at least
extending the option to work with us. Which speaks to this,

(40:55):
I think the Game Commission, Rob Lowe or issue directly
that you know, as John said, we could make a
hyper partisan and we it could become something that you know,
becomes another thing that divides this community here in New Mexico,
or you know, more relatable independent minds can prevail and

(41:19):
set up a structure where we're not going to agree
on everything, but we are going to work together, and
we're going to we're going to follow the constitution State
and we're going to We're going to work for the
people of the state in a way that that you know,
we can get things done.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, and you know, I appreciate Jason you recognizing and
bringing it to the attention of the listeners how committed
we are to to the to the mission statement that
we've been tasked to carry out, essentially to the vision
that was first provided to the organization by Aldo Leopold
so long ago. Sometimes it's kind of funny because as staff,

(41:56):
sometimes we're faced with tough decisions. I mean, let's face it,
a lot of the things that we deal with on
a daily basis are very controversial and you can see
both sides of an issue sometimes. But what we do
is we go back to some of Aldo Leopold's writing,
and luckily he's written a lot, and so we can
learn from that and we can ask ourselves what would

(42:17):
Aldo do in this situation, what decision would he make?
Where would he go on the side of it? And
I've worked with more in a volunteer capacity, but I've
worked with a number of nonprofit organizations over the years.
A lot of almost all of them focused on hunting
and angling stuff. A lot of critter groups as they're
sometimes called. And one thing that I feel is pretty

(42:38):
unique to the New Mexico Wildlife Federation is that this
board of directors, at least the one that I've been
fortunate to work under, is so committed to the mission
statement that they're willing to make the really, really difficult
decisions in order to ensure that there's never a possibility
for the integrity of the organization to be questioned. Executive Director,

(43:00):
the biggest stress that I have, and you both know
this is the fundraising component. You know, it costs a
lot of money to run this organization because we have
a lot of staff. We're involved in lawsuits sometimes as
we are now in the Percher Creek situation, where there's
public land that's been in our assessment illegally blocked off
for the public to access, and we couldn't get anybody

(43:25):
else to take the issue on, including our federal land
management agencies. They refuse to take action, and the only
option we had. I don't feel like we're a litigious
organization typically, but sometimes that's just the only course of
action that you have to resolve a problem. And so
the judicial branch of government exists so that it can

(43:45):
be used and well, we don't like to use it,
sometimes we don't have a choice, and that costs money.
And traveling all across the state to the state Game
Commission meetings cost money. And going to the BLM Resource
Management Planning meetings costs money. And there's just a million
things that all require financial resources. And you know, it's
essentially my job as executive director to ensure that we

(44:06):
have adequate resources to continue doing the work. And that's
a tremendous amount of stress. But back when we were
first getting involved in this stream acts, I shouldn't say
first when I was first getting involved as a leader
of the Federation, the Federation had been doing that work
for many years before my arrival with the organization. But
when I grabbed the torch and started working on stream

(44:28):
access stuff, we got a call from one of our
large supporters who didn't agree with our opinion on the
non navigable's water rule that the Game Commission had in
place at the time. We believed it was unconstitutional. This
particular donor preferred for us to leave it alone, basically,

(44:52):
just not get involved with it. And basically the phone
call came to me and I was told that if
we don't disengage on stream access. Then we're going to
lose the financial support of this particular entity. And that's
a tough thing because we're talking about a lot of money.
And I called John Crenshaw. I don't know if you

(45:12):
remember that called John, but I called you after I
got the phone call and said, well, here's the ultimatum
that I was just given. I just want to share
it with you so we can discuss and you know,
what do we do now? And John, without hesitation, I mean,
didn't have to think about it, without hesitation, said well,
we know what we have to do. We have to
carry out our mission state. We have to stay true

(45:36):
to our mission, stay true to our goal. And I
know it's going to hurt. And I apologize because he said,
I know you're the one that's going to have to
fill the void, but we're gonna have to find that
money somewhere else because we're not going to stray from
our stated goal. And there's a lot of organizations. I mean,
to you guys, it probably sounds like a no brainer.

(45:57):
You think that just comes natural. But having worked with
a lot of other nonprofits, I can tell you that
there's a lot of organizations that either wouldn't have made
the same decision or wouldn't have come to that decision.

Speaker 4 (46:08):
So naturally, yeah, and I think that that's that level
of integrity.

Speaker 5 (46:12):
I would I'd encourage folks to to sort of go
onto the New Mexico Wildlife Federation website and sort of
read the history that's there. I think there's a good
YouTube video that that gives a little more information as well,
and sort of see how this organization really is set
up in that way to not cave as a public

(46:33):
interest or as a private interest group, or not cave
to donations and take on those battles on behalf of
everyone as as they rise. It makes it hard for you,
particularly Jesse. I think in that you know, this is
this is where being a volunteer maybe has its benefits
because my salary is not writing on it. But I

(46:55):
think that it it you know, it presents this opportunity
unity that if if your area of interest is bow
hunting in New Mexico and you want to be able
to access those areas in New Mexico where where you
know it's public land and getting to it is complicated,
you've got a voice and you can contribute to that.

(47:16):
And if if you have a differing opinion about stream
access and that's you know, something that that you don't
want to see happen, well we you know, we're not
going to exclude you because of that by any means.
We're we're here for for all opinions.

Speaker 4 (47:33):
We are going to.

Speaker 5 (47:34):
Follow the law and we're going to promote, you know,
the access in my opinion, promote the access for the
public writ large. And that shouldn't seclude you know, that
shouldn't be seen as as locking out or keeping anybody
who wants to be involved from coming in and voicing
their their thoughts and trying to uh to make this

(47:56):
even better for more people.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
Yeah, well, said Jason. And you know, in addition to
all of the access work that we do public access
to our public lands and waters, there's a lot of
public education that we do for the benefit of the
private landowners. And when we talk about stream cleanup projects,
we talk about leaving it better than you found it.
You know, obviously everybody's seen trash on the side of

(48:20):
the road. We encourage our members to leave a pocket
of their backpack open to pick up any litter that
they see on the public lands. Or along the roadways
when crossing through private land. We teach members of the
public leave the gates the way you find them, close
the gate behind you. You know, their private landowners can
have livestock and allotments, and it's really problematic and complicated

(48:41):
when you don't close those gates, stay on the established roads,
don't go out of your way to create ruts and
messes that are going to impact, you know, a landowner
or a rancher's ability to get around and do the
work that they need to do to make a living.
So we do a lot of education for the benefit
of our private landowners. And as you said, Jason, you know,
no one's excluded. We get I get a lot of emails,

(49:03):
we get a lot of phone calls, a lot of
feedback from members, and I don't always agree with the
feedback I receive, but I'm always willing to listen to
it and contemplate it and discuss it, in some cases
debate it. We try to remain open minded, see all
sides of an issue. But yeah, these are all these
are all really really great points. And the board is

(49:26):
such a crucial component of the organization in that when
the hard decisions are made. They're made by the board.
You know, when when we've got a piece of legislation
that's going to be controversial, or when we've got some
agenda item on a Game Commission meeting that we're going
to need to take a stance on, that goes in
front of the board who makes the decision. And then

(49:49):
again I'm tasked with kind of trying to accomplish the
goal as as created by the board. And we saw
that recently when we advocated for the removal of scopes
on muzzleloaders, which was surprisingly I didn't expect that to
be as controversial as it was, but that was one
of the most controversial issues I think we've dealt with.

(50:10):
And again we went back to what would Aldo do.
And you know, the scopes weren't removed up from muzzleloaders
on any illegal weapon hunts. They were only removed from
muzzleloaders on primitive weapon hunts, on the muzzleloader hunts that
are described as primitive weapons. And we'd seen plenty of
evidence of these high powered, you know, fancy, technologically advanced

(50:32):
scopes making it possible for muzzleloaders to be lethal and
accurate weapons out to four hundred five hundred yards even,
and when we tried to justify that as a primitive weapon,
we couldn't do it. And we also lean heavily towards opportunity.
You know, we like to see people have the ability

(50:54):
to get outside and go hunting. And the scientists at
the Game and Fish Department are wildlife biologists. Had made
it clear that the success rates on those primitive weapon
hunts using non primitive weapons had become so high that
if the scopes were allowed to remain, they were going
to have to drastically cut the number of tags issued

(51:15):
for some of those hunts. And some of the hunts
we were told would even go away entirely. They would
just have no muzzleloader hunt period. And so, you know,
with all of that information in mind, it seems like
a no brainer. Yeah, let's get rid of the scopes,
because otherwise you don't get the muzzleloader hunt at all.
We'd rather hunt with iron sights than not at all. Right, So,

(51:35):
when the board made that decision and I went publicly
to share our position on the issue, I was really
surprised by the amount of pushback that I got from
some of our membership. But even throughout all those conversations.
It was really great because I had got to have
dialogue with our members. I got to have discussions, some

(51:56):
of them email, some of them text message, some of
them over the telephone. Divides the ability to build relationships
even though you know we might be in disagreement on
that particular issue. So I say all that because I
encourage our listeners to get involved, not be hesitant to
reach out to the organization, reach out to me directly

(52:17):
if they've got questions, comments, concerns, or suggestions, if there's
something that they would like us to work on that
we're not currently working on. You know, we're here to
serve the hunters and anglers and outdoor enthusiasts of New Mexico,
you know, with rock climbers, mountain bikers, hikers. You know,
we care about New Mexicans enjoying their public lands and

(52:38):
want to be here to support that ongoing thing. So
with that said, John, you've said some great things about
being on the board, but I would guess there's been
some things that are awfully frustrating to any of.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
Those you'd like to share with our listeners. Sure, never
miss a chance. Actually, fortunately you'd kind of forewarned that
would be coming.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
And I think.

Speaker 2 (53:06):
The biggest frustration I have, and it literally dates back
to the mid seventies when I first started with the
Game and Fish Department, and that is that this state,
New Mexico has a system unlike any other public lands

(53:26):
state in the West. And while we were doing then,
and it wasn't the Wildlife Federation, it was a different group,
some of whom eventually got on the board of the
Wildlife Federation and continued the argument there. But they sued
the Game and Fish Department in State Game Commission because

(53:48):
the way that licenses were distributed and the way game
was managed basically seated management and the the ability to
get a license to hunt big game to the landowners
to private enterprise, and so they didn't win. The Department

(54:14):
didn't make a few changes, but the core thing has remained.
We're now called the E plus system in terms of ELK,
and I don't have the statistics right attend, but I
believe it's something like forty of the state's l licenses

(54:35):
go through that E plus system, and to get a license,
all you have to do is have a friend or
somebody who has the authorization to buy it, as you
do private landowner and if you're a good friend, maybe
you'll give you a cal permit and you can go
buy your actual l license with it, but more likely

(54:58):
you're going to have ten to have venue. We're from
five to twenty thousand dollars, and that, to me, it
just flies in the face of the North American wildlife
management model and it really replicates Texas kind of approach,
or more universally, the European system where the wildlife belongs

(55:22):
to the landowner, and that's where the North American Wildlife
model came into effect. And it's the public trust doctrine,
and to me, it's just violated pretty regularly, and everybody
has really dug in on this particular issue, but it
has been that long, and initially I didn't understand fifty

(55:46):
years ago just exactly how out of balance it is.
And as time went by and as I learned more
about the philosophies behind the public doctrine and how much
that means to America and how much it runs into

(56:09):
that wall. That is probably my biggest frustration, and it
is I know it's it's here, and it's really going
to be hard to budge. The money is so big
and it's so entrenched. But yes, yes, I am a
little frustrated.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Yeah, well said Johnny. I E plus is it's an
interesting thing. You know, you probably know this number already,
or these two numbers. But of all of the inter
Mountain West states, there's eight states, and you know, I
would consider inter Mountain West. I'm including Nevada in that.
New Mexico issues five percent of the total elk permits

(56:51):
that are issued in all of those states. But if
you look at private transferable tags, you know, tags that
are issued to private individuals who can be sold, that
can be sold. New Mexico issues seventy two percent of
the private transferable tags across the eight inter Mountain West states.
So even though we only contribute five percent of the

(57:11):
total elk tags, we contribute seventy two percent of the
private transferable tag. So that just illustrates how out of
line our policies here are when it comes to elk
tag allocation compared to all of the other Western states
that also have elk hunting and also have public and
private lands and also have you know, all the same

(57:32):
issues that we have, but they deal with it very
very differently.

Speaker 5 (57:36):
But remarkable Jesse to hear it that way, because I
haven't heard that statistic. And you know, I'm a novice
ELK hunter. I put in for a tag, and when
I draw a grade, and when I don't, it's you know,
and I just go about my year. And you know,
I'm thankful that you don't have to draw tag to
chase rainbow trout or brown trout. But what as a

(58:00):
as a member of the public, you know, the Citi
citizenry of New Mexico, to hear that that there's a
commodity that is a public that the public has the
right to that we've created this secondary market, it's I mean,
it's it's more outrageous than the Ticketmaster reselling of Taylor

(58:22):
Swift tickets, right Like, you know, there's no benefit that
that's seventy two percent you know of of resold ELK
tags doesn't go back and benefit the state of New Mexico.
Individual benefits, individual private landowners, and they may you know
that you could say that brings in some outstate, out

(58:43):
of state hunters who spend some money at gas stations
and restaurants. We get some sort of tax benefit related
to those. But you know, there's a whole secondary market
that's been created to to boost up an economic benefit
for some of the citizens, and at not the same

(59:03):
level that the public in general gets.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Yeah, what else is remarkable, Jason, is that in twenty
twenty one, the New Mexico Council of Outfitters and Guides
estimated that the E plus authorizations sold in this state
for just under eighty four million dollars. So you take
all the E plus authorizations, the transferable five digit codes
that are provided to landowners to sell ELK tags, they

(59:27):
sold for nearly eighty four million. That same year. Our
Department of Game and Fish's total annual budget was forty
seven million, So these private authorizations that they issue are
selling for nearly twice what their entire annual budget is. Meanwhile,
that New Mexico Wildlife Federation is fighting tooth and nail
to try to get the department a fee adjustment so

(59:48):
that they can remain solvent. And I'm looking at that,
like boy, there's a lot of other things we could
do to change the financial situation at the agency besides
just the fee adjustment, which we all agree is so
something that needs to happen and certainly long overdue. But
one more number and I'm not a numbers guy, so
I apologize for all the numbers I'm throwing out. But
since it's late August while we're recording, this pronghorn season

(01:00:11):
is in full swing, and we got prong horn hunters
all over the planes of New Mexico right now chasing
those speed goats. It's interesting. I'd like New Mexico resident
hunters to realize that every single prong horn tag issued
in the state of New Mexico, only thirty seven percent
are issued to residents. Thirty seven percent of prong horn

(01:00:32):
tags in this state are used by New Mexico resident
and the remainder are all used by non residents. And
again we get eighty four percent of the prong horn
tags in the public draw. So that just illustrates how
many pronghorn tags are not included in the public draw
at all, that are completely privatized and never included in
the democratic allocation system that exists in this state. So

(01:00:55):
certainly there's tons of work to be done, and I'm
just super grateful that we've got board members like you
guys and others that are on the board too. You know,
these are two members of our board. We have a
lot of other phenomenal, dynamic board members. But I thought
it would be really appropriate to have our president and
president elect, the real leaders of this organization on to
talk a little bit about the behind the scenes aspect

(01:01:19):
of the New Mexico Wildlfe Federation. So, Jason, is there
anything that you found to be super frustrating in your
tenure on the board?

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Uh? Not yet.

Speaker 5 (01:01:27):
I mean, you know, unfortunately, I think I've I've been
insulated a little bit by by John and.

Speaker 4 (01:01:34):
And all of his years of experience, and I'm sure
it's coming.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
I've mostly been, like I had sort of alluded to earlier,
more just impressed with the great care and and you know,
concerted effort to make this an organization that that will
hear everyone out and extend that you know, that arm
or that handshake to to folks that that maybe come

(01:02:00):
in disagreeing and at least want to hear them out. So,
you know, my concern with well, what type of organization,
you know, what's the ethos or the way in which
this organization, what am I committing to it at joining
this organization was quickly put to bed because I realized, boy,
I could actually learn a lot from these folks as

(01:02:21):
to as to how to be more welcoming to all
opinions and having that dialogue, because you know, in our environment,
in the in the world that we're in now, there
is plenty of opportunities to close yourself off, to enter
a silo and not be not expose yourself to those

(01:02:43):
contrary views and discussions, uh, and just kind of you know,
live in the echo chamber of your own arguments, and
to be part of an organization that doesn't do that,
it's it's you know, a welcome discomfort.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Yeah, that's you know, I'm glad we've said that, Jason.
I'm glad John talked a little bit about that earlier too,
because you know, I oftentimes get a lot of criticism
for the circles that I work with in you know,
some of our coalition partners are groups who don't really
agree with hunting. We certainly work with plenty of groups
who have a different opinion of hunting than we do.

(01:03:19):
And it's it's been fascinating to build these relationships with
these people and build friendships, authentic friendships, because what's interesting
is I've you know, I've learned these people go out camping,
and they go out hiking, and they do photography, and
they do all kinds of things. So if I go
on a five day deer hunt, they might go on
a five day backpacking trip. And our experiences are incredibly similar,

(01:03:42):
and the things that we take from the experience are
incredibly similar. The difference generally is like five seconds of
time that I choose to pull the trigger, where they
instead would choose to, you know, push the shutter button
on their camera. That's the difference. Beyond that, we have
a lot of the same values. We care about habitat,
we care about wildlife populations, we care about biodiversity, we

(01:04:02):
care about healthy lands. I mean, there's so much in common,
even with someone who fundamentally disagrees with the idea of
killing a wild animal to provide, you know, food for
ourselves and our families. There's people who disagree with that idea,
but that disagreement is certainly not cause to choose not
to work together on the majority of other issues where

(01:04:27):
we are on the same page and fully agree. And
and that's been a lot of fun because especially now
in this as we lead up to an election year,
you know, in the federal politics and the mud slinging
and the name calling and the division that exists across
this country is it's so harmful to progress, it's harmful

(01:04:49):
to accomplishing things that need to be done. And you know,
and it's not just in a Mexico whil Life Federation.
I mean I it takes, you know, it takes two
people to have a relationship, or in this case, all
of the groups and the coalition to agree that we're
going to work together. So just as much as I'm
praising the new Mexico Whili Federation for sitting down with

(01:05:11):
those groups, I praise those groups for welcoming us into
their circle as well. And it's a coalition that is
so diverse that we can accomplish huge things. Like John
mentioned earlier, the Land of Enchantment Legacy Fund that passed,
you know, and the legislature recently was a humongous effort,

(01:05:31):
and I don't know any way that could have gotten
done if we'd had the kind of fracturing among our
coalition that we see elsewhere in the country. So it
really helps us be very effective. But I see, guys
that we've been going at this little over an hour,
and I know both of you are very very busy
people with a lot of things to do, so before
we wrap it up, I just want to give you

(01:05:52):
each the opportunity to share with our audience anything that
you think we haven't covered, or words of wisdom or
reflections ought, anything like that that you might you might
be inclined.

Speaker 5 (01:06:04):
To talk about. Before we wrap it up. I'll give
I'll give John the last words. So I think what
I I would just sort of echo, is that you know,
we're at this stage where there's an opportunity to be
involved with the Wildlife Federation at whatever level you know,
someone can be if they want more information about the

(01:06:26):
board and how the workings go on there, then there's
you know, reach out if there's UH, be be aware
of the events that that Jesse and the staff put
on because there's lots of opportunities to learn things that
will that will open your eyes, I think, and and
you know, ultimately try to to engage yourself or don't

(01:06:47):
be afraid of engaging yourself with this wider effort, because
I guarantee there's a place in here for your voice.
And UH and hope to meet you know, for the
folks who stayed on with us this long, thank you,
and hope to to get to meet you one way
or another, and.

Speaker 2 (01:07:02):
Thank you Jason h frankly, folks, what he said, Uh,
there there is a there is a place, and we're
responsive and I'm looking forward to kind of transitioning out
that it is wanting to be a transition. And uh,
I really appreciate that Jason has stepped in, and uh

(01:07:26):
he will do a very good job. I've got a
lot of confidence and I'm will be glad to help
and then also try to stay the heck out of
the way.

Speaker 1 (01:07:35):
Well, John Jason, thank you both so much. It's been
such an honor to work underneath both of your leadership
and just really appreciate all you do for the organization.
And thanks for giving me an hour of your day
today so we can share some of these stories with
our members. Thanks guys, thank you, thank you. Thanks for

(01:07:56):
listening to the Yahiva podcast produced by Drift Outdoors.