E973 Ask Nick - My Therapist Is Bestie’s Toxic Ex - Alkebulan Love Podcast

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Speaker 3 (01:59):
How's it going in?

Speaker 4 (02:00):
My name is Sadie.

Speaker 5 (02:01):
I'm thirty five and my husband and i's best friend
is a deadbeat dad and we're not sure where to.

Speaker 4 (02:07):
Go from here?

Speaker 5 (02:08):
Is he?

Speaker 2 (02:09):
I mean not that it really matters. Are you friends
with them? Through like your husband. Is it like a
mutual college friend that you're both friends with.

Speaker 5 (02:15):
Yes, I met him through my husband. Him and I
have since become very close we you know, over the years,
through all of his relationship experiences. I'm kind of his
go to for advice. Like he just called me this morning.
We talked for an hour about his current relationship. But
he if you like, I can go ahead and give

(02:36):
you some background on the context of why he is
a dad is really important, so I can definitely jump
into that. So essentially, our friend was in a very
toxic relationship and he finally broke up with her. It
dragged on for an unnecessary amount of time, then she

(02:57):
ended up showing back up at his house a couple
days later, the up sleeping together and she got pregnant.
Come to find out, she actually had planned it as
much as you can plan that as like a last
dish effort to save the relationship. Obviously, that didn't go
over well with him, and he became very, very highly
triggered by her to the point where he can't have

(03:19):
any civil interactions with her and is completely uninvolved in
the child's life.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
As of now. My husband and I are parents.

Speaker 5 (03:26):
We have little kids ourselves, so we've been trying really
hard to steer him towards being involved and to make
progress in that regard because we know how important it is,
and she's not a particularly stable person and he historically
has been, so.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
We knew how important it was for the child to
have that stability in their life.

Speaker 5 (03:47):
And not many of our other friends have kids, and
his family's not pushing him to be involved at all,
so we just really aren't sure where to go from here.
We seem to be one of his only friends expressing
how important it is to be involved, and we many
of our friends have just kind of proceeded with him
as of as if like nothing has changed, the child

(04:10):
doesn't exist, and we're the only ones like pushing him
towards it. So it's kind of a balance of do
we continue the relationship as is and just try to
make small small steps with him, or do we, you know,
cut off the relationship. We just aren't sure how to
proceed because we seem to be the only ones that

(04:31):
are pushing him in that direction and you know, the
only ones that are giving him guidance to become involved
with the child.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
It's a tough situation.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
That you just described while you're there, you know, while
you were saying, and I'm trying to imagine like what
I would do if I were in your situation, or
how I would feel about a friend who is in
your friend's situation. And like you, as a relatively new
parent and new dad, I am more judgmental and critical

(05:02):
of other parents. You know, I think you know online
everyone is, but like not in the way that like, listen,
I think just being there matters the most, which you know, obviously,
I'm sure you understand in terms of like every I
think every parent has the right to parent their child
how they want, obviously within the reason of their kids
being safe and YadA, YadA, YadA.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
But this is.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's definitely not the same as you know, you were
like our friends at deadbeat Dad and he you know,
got divorced, he left his wife or his wife left him,
and now he's just decided to like pretend he's not
a dad anymore.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
It's definitely different than that.

Speaker 5 (05:45):
And he does express he does express a lot of
interest in wanting to be a dad, like he wants
to have children. He loves our kids, He's highly involved
in their life. He's around a lot. He is consistently
asking questions about, like our baby, how to raise a baby,
and he does want that it's just her own less

(06:09):
than a year old. He's like eight or nine months
at this point, and he's never met him, never been
There's been no involvement up until this point. Mostly and
up until she actually had the child. He's expressed a
lot of interest around wanting to be involved and even
discussed having like soul custody himself because she is a

(06:29):
very mentally unstable person and that is like, could be
what's best for the child long term, but in where
we live, it's very hard for him to get that
unless he has a mountain of evidence, and even you know,

(06:50):
on the other side of that it up until this point,
he doesn't really have many rights until the child reaches
a certain age. And then on top of that, the
mother is making it very difficult. So he does have
a lot of barriers. But at the end of the day,
my husband and I see it as it doesn't matter
how many barriers there are, like you could put them
outain in front of you. This is your child, Like

(07:11):
you have to prioritize that, and that's you know, that's
what's going to be important and no matter how many
you know things she puts in front of you, how
difficult she makes it like you have to make that
the focus.

Speaker 4 (07:24):
And he seems to be deterred.

Speaker 5 (07:26):
By any small thing that she does or piece of
bad news he gets from a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
What was the last com you said? You talked him
this morning for over an hour?

Speaker 3 (07:34):
What do you guys? What did you guys talk about?

Speaker 5 (07:36):
So that's actually about his So he has a new
girlfriend and that was that was a situation with his
current girlfriend and he has since started a new relationship.
We're very supportive of that relationship. I still think he has,
you know, a lot of work to do personally. The
relationship piece and now seems to be very healthy and
she is. She is supportive of him being involved and

(08:00):
the situation. So that is helpful. But they haven't made
much progress, not much. They have made zero progress other
than having the conversation of like, I am supportive. He's
my age around thirty five.

Speaker 2 (08:13):
Okay, why did you guys talk about for an hour
and a half? If everything in this current relationship is solid.

Speaker 5 (08:20):
She's a little bit younger than him, and it's just
around her wanting he at the end of the day,
he's pretty insecure, and she is like a decade younger
than him. So she's just in a little bit of
a different phase of life socially and is like wanting
to go out a lot.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
He is not in that phase of life.

Speaker 5 (08:39):
He wants to stay in and it's just causing a
bit of a rift for them, and he's just like
not understanding why that's such a big of a priority
for her because they're in it's just coming to their
age gap is kind of coming to a head and
they're out of crossroads really, Like she says she wants
to settle down, and she says he's a priority, But

(09:01):
is it I think it's her actions are at the
point where it's in Are they in line with what
she's saying, Like, is she actually ready to settle down
or is she just thinks she wants to settle down?

Speaker 2 (09:11):
And well, I mean a lot of a lot of
twenty five year olds want to settle down some day.
That last part they don't often say the suday, especially
if they're dating someone older yep, or just don't communicate that.
But for a twenty five year olds, yeah, they'd be
like yeah, I want to settle down twenty seven, twenty eight.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
You know, it's like that sounds cool. That gives me
a little bit.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Of time, even though time goes fast, and it's like, well,
what is you know, you know, as someone who has
a younger wife, Yeah, where they are matters in their life,
and if he feels like they want different things in
different stages of their life, it doesn't matter if they
both want to eventually settle down and have kids at
the same time. You know, if he doesn't want to
go out all the time and she does, that's just

(09:51):
a huge compatibility problem.

Speaker 4 (09:54):
M hm, yes, yes, we've had. We had that conversation anyway.

Speaker 2 (09:58):
Not why you called what's his financial situation?

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Just out of curiosity.

Speaker 5 (10:02):
He's extremely stable. He does very very well. He owns
his home, makes great money, is very capable, and the
mom of the child is not in that current situation.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
I mean, I'm not I'm assuming he's spoken with lawyers
to understand his situation and rights and things like that.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
Yes, he has. He did so.

Speaker 5 (10:27):
He was of the mentality that he was going to
be involved as much as he possibly could before the
child was born, and then he had a conversation with
a lawyer that was pretty disheartening to him, and essentially,
he can't have much custody or any custody until the
child reaches a certain age. They favors the mother until

(10:49):
they're you know, one or two years old, So he
essentially was of the mindset of, well, I can't do
anything until the child reaches his age, and I'm at
her mercy, Like at the most he could have sketch visitation,
and he is like so beyond triggered by her that
he has kind of just let that go because he
can't see past He's not a parent, so he doesn't

(11:11):
you know, I have the experience to know like, well,
you just have to get past that, because the relationship
with the child is so amazing that, you know, any
roadblock that's put in your way, you know, you just
need to get over.

Speaker 4 (11:24):
But he obviously hasn't had that experience.

Speaker 5 (11:26):
He doesn't see that like end goal, and he's very
blocked by his relationship with her and how unhealthy it
is and how triggered they are by each other. So
he just hasn't had He hasn't had any involvement up
until this point because he can't get past that, and
she continues to put barriers in the way. And I
at the beginning, I think she used it as a

(11:46):
last ditch effort to save the relationship, but now she
now that she is a mom. I mean, I'm speaking
for her, and you know what I interpret based on
their limited interactions, is that now she sees it as
he doesn't. She doesn't want to involved at all because
now she just wants the child to herself because he's
like a stranger to her at this point. So he
is she's making it very difficult for him to have involvement,

(12:09):
but at the same time he's he's not really trying.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
So you're saying that based off the state that you're
in or wherever you're located, that like the parenting laws
are as such that because they're not married and they
have a kid together, like that he doesn't have he
has to go to court to get her to agree
to scheduled visits because like, I don't know what, yes.

Speaker 5 (12:31):
Yes, they have to At the most, I think he
can have, you know, a handful of hours, like maybe
ten hours a week of visitation with the child. I'm
not sure if she needs to be there or not,
but regardless, he like, can't have the child come stay
at his house. It's very limited in what he can do.
But I would imagine, I mean, I'm not a lawyer
and I've never had any experience with this kind of situation,

(12:54):
but I would imagine in order for them to be
any kind of custody when it comes to the point
where he's able to have custody, there has to be
some kind of experience with the child prior, but he
has not had any.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
So all right, well, it's a tough, tough situation. I
already said that I feel like the I don't think
this is a situation where you cut off your friend.

Speaker 3 (13:17):
You kind of floated that out there, you.

Speaker 5 (13:20):
Know, No, I don't think cut off. I don't think
cut off our friend. And like, we love him so much,
that's not what we want. It's more we don't want
to make it seem like we're okay with how things
are going and be like complacent in him not being
involved in the child's life. Having kids, and you know,
we just had a baby ourselves when this happened. That

(13:41):
kids are only a couple months apart, so it's very
fresh and emotional for us as well. But we just
aren't sure how to proceed because we seem to be
the only ones really pushing him in that direction.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
He's not getting that from his family.

Speaker 5 (13:52):
Our other friends don't have children, so they can't really
understand either. And one I am the person that he
goes to for a lot of advice, and he has
kind of pulled back because I think he knows where
I stand and it's in not in line with what
he's currently doing, so he doesn't He brings up his

(14:13):
current relationship a.

Speaker 4 (14:14):
Lot, but not his the child a lot.

Speaker 5 (14:16):
So we just aren't sure how to how to go
from here, how to encourage him to get involved, how
patient we should be with it, or how pushy we
should be with it, considering we're the only ones that
really feel this way.

Speaker 4 (14:28):
Our friends actually do, but they're not val about it.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
What have you said to him?

Speaker 5 (14:33):
So it's been kind of confusing because up until this,
up until the child was born, up until he had
that conversation with the initial lawyer, he was pretty and
you know, sure that he was going to be involved.
And then he had that conversation, he was really deterred
and he kind of it was kind of like.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
He lost steam.

Speaker 5 (14:54):
So then our conversations went more like and then when
the child actually got he he and it became more real.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
It's like he pulled.

Speaker 5 (15:04):
Back, and you know, I would consistently ask him about
like hey, because he was making like pretty small steps
until earlier this year, and then it kind of came
to a halt. And now he's at a point where
he has to make a decision. He has to establish
paternity and he hasn't done that yet, and she won't
do it voluntarily, so she has to sue her for
paternity and he hasn't done that yet, and we've been

(15:28):
lingering in that step for a long time, so more
you know, a few months ago we had like a
pretty good heart to heart with him where we're like, hey,
like you can't be a deadbeat dad, Like it's not
about at the end of the day, it's not about
you and her relationship, Like you made a decision, She
made a decision, and this child is paying the price
for it, Like you need to be focusing on that child.

(15:50):
And he completely agrees, but he again is so triggered
by her.

Speaker 4 (15:54):
And we've had conversations.

Speaker 5 (15:56):
Around therapy and he isn't therapy and has been for
really long time. But to me, his therapist is not
super effective at.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
This point anymore.

Speaker 5 (16:06):
And yeah, they aren't doing the hard work, like they're
not having the conversations that they should be having. And
I'm like, you should be coming at a therapy like
feeling like you've accomplished something like, oh that was really hard,
we really dug deep there, and he never It's more
of just like someone validating his feelings.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
So I've encourage him to.

Speaker 5 (16:23):
Get another therapist because he has so much to work
through and they're not working through it.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, and then there's a lot of not you know,
great therapists out there. If he were my friend, right,
I would do some version of what you're already doing.
But it's more about trying to paint a picture about
the long game, right. You know, right now, you've said
multiple times he's triggered by her. He's triggered by her,
I have no doubt, and I can completely empathize with why.
But there is a part which I'm sure you've kind

(16:48):
of alluded to. You know, he's an adult man who
made an adult choice, you know, and she came over,
they had unprotected sex. You can't be like, oh, she's
crazy she's crazy. She's crazy. She's crazy, she's crazy. Oh,
she's a psycho. She's a psycho. And then he invites
her over or she shows up or whatever.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
They broken. Yeah, she broke it, and but he still
made that decision.

Speaker 6 (17:11):
But I'm like, i mean that's even like yeah, i
mean like broke in either way. Yeah, then he came
inside of her, you know, like he it's so whatever,
It just he needs to take that ownership.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
He needs to accept that right now. He because he
can easily be like, she broke in, she's crazy, she's
all this. It's just so easy to paint her. And
she is, you know, in some version of the is
the bad guy to him, and she is going to
make his life probably difficult, but he will be a
happier person and go further in life in general by

(17:46):
just like owning what he did wrong and how he
can improve his situation.

Speaker 4 (17:51):
He's very much so in the victim mindset.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, so you know that's step one, and then step
two is, yeah, just painting this picture of just like
like this could be as difficult as it is one
of your best moments in your life. You know, very
few opportunities in our lives do we get to be
someone's hero? Do we get you know, in parenting in general,
I think as you obviously, I'm sure feel recently you know,

(18:16):
you just had another baby, You have young kids.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
You guys are relatively new parents.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
Yeah, like most of us live these very charmed privilege whatever,
like you know, mundane lives and whatever. And the most
meaningful thing we can do is be parents. Right. And
then now he you know, he doesn't have an ideal situation,
but he has a chance to be this kid's hero,
you know, and he has to think about the long game,
and he has to think about the impact he can
have on this child's life for years to come, you know,

(18:43):
as a thirty five year old man. And he's got
to want to have to have that fight. And thank
god he's in a he's a successful man who has
money and can make these fights. And yeah, it might
cost him in ways, but like again, like so you
just got to paint that picture of it. It's an
opportunit unity for him. You know, you're not going to
get very far by criticizing him and putting him down

(19:04):
and calling him a deadbeat. It's more about, like, you
have a chance here to do something that will make
you really proud of yourself. And if you don't follow
up with this decision, this is also something that you
it's gonna have years of regret. I mean, just there's
just very few parents out there who for whatever reason,
you know, they all have the reasons in the present

(19:27):
of why they just weren't as present of parents or
why they weren't the type of parents they thought they
would be when they thought about being parents. And this
is something that could haunt you, you know. And it's
like he's looking for he's looking for meaning, he's looking
for purpose, and now he's like investing this time in
this younger woman. Again, no criticism for me, but like
it's also someone who's like he's talking to his friend

(19:49):
for an hour and a half about a girl he
just started dating. You don't do that unless there's some
serious relationship problems, unless you're you know, and he's not
even willing to see that. This is emotional energy that
he's wasting in some who still wants to like pop bottles.
And he's saying to himself, well, I don't get why
she wants to do that. Well, who gives a shit
why she wants to do that? She wants to do that,
Like I mean, I don't know, Like maybe she had

(20:10):
a different childhood than him.

Speaker 3 (20:11):
You know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Maybe she was in an isolated family where she didn't
get to go out as much.

Speaker 3 (20:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (20:16):
Part of the reason why Nelly and I work as
well as we do is we had very different childhoods.
You know, I got to my parents were very strict.
I didn't get to do much, you know, like in
my team. I mean, a great childhood, but you know
what I'm saying, I wasn't just now. It was just
living by herself at seventeen in New York. You know,
she grew up really fast.

Speaker 3 (20:34):
You know.

Speaker 2 (20:35):
That allowed us when we met, for her to like
actually want to do the same things that I was
looking to do in the time in which we were together.
It wasn't like I want to settle down someday, you know,
and things like that. So he doesn't want to see
that right now. And honestly, there's a part of like
this is drama that he can preoccupy himself with. So
there's that, But I get as far as getting through

(20:55):
to him, I really think you have to be patient.
You really do, don't be the only you know, you said,
you're the only people who really feel this way. Well,
you don't want to be the only people who are
making him feel like a piece of shit, because you and.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
We we aren't. We definitely aren't. Like we're super supportive.

Speaker 5 (21:09):
The conversations we've had with him are very positive or
like I never have said like you are a dead beat.
I'm like, you can't be uninvolved in this sild's life,
Like you can't not be a dad when you have
this opportunity to be a dad.

Speaker 2 (21:22):
So I think you just change your messaging into a
ton what he can't do, because then it's just like, well,
I mean I can you.

Speaker 4 (21:27):
Know, yeah, he option.

Speaker 2 (21:31):
You don't want to be this like like I want
you to think about ten years from now and like
this is going to weigh on you and yes, this
is a shitty situation, but like you you just have
to own the role you played and now, like this,
this can't this can be the best thing that ever
happened to you. It really can, because like you have
a child and it's going to be difficult, but if

(21:52):
if this woman is as crazy as he thinks, and
like this kid needs someone and he has to see
it that way. But you're gonna have to be patient
with him. And it's a tough situation he's in, I
you know, and he's gonna need people like you to
believe in him that he can be a good father
because he's not getting that from anyone else m hm.

Speaker 4 (22:13):
And he does.

Speaker 5 (22:15):
So what's frustrating is that we have these conversations over
and over and I know I can see that he
wants it, but he just like can't get over the
barriers of her And it's no I mean I've literally
like we've had this. I can't even tell you how
many hundreds of hours of conversations we've had about the situation.
It's just kind of getting him over that hump.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
I think to get him there, does your husband talk
too much about this stuff?

Speaker 3 (22:40):
Because I really.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Think, like, man to man, he needs a little bit
of like, you know, he needs to get kind of
called out and get a little little pep talk about like, hey,
man to man, you need to step up and be
someone I know you're capable of being, because like you're
better than this and a little like you need to
take care of your people, to take care of your family.

(23:01):
This kid is your family. Do not abandon your family.
And like, adversity comes in all different forms. Right now,
you and your husband have this sounds like great nucleus,
I don't you know. Listen, I'm not trying to like,
adversity comes to all of us, right and you're you know,
and your husband has to paint this picture, like, listen,

(23:21):
this is how adversity is coming to your doorstep. But
you still have to show up. And adversity is gonna
come to your guys' doorstep. I don't know in what way,
but then you guys are gonna have to step up
and show up, you know.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
And that's that's what being.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
You know, a parent or an adult you know, a
good you know, and he just needs you two to
believe in him. But I really think some of this
will be more impactful coming from your husband, especially when
it comes to like you need to step up for
your family.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (23:46):
I think that is a good idea, because I do
think a lot of the advice he's getting from his
family side is from his sister and his mom, and
I'm like the third person that he goes to mostly
his sister and I, which up until the child was born,
were very much on the same page and then I
don't know what happened, but she kind of split and
went the other direction, which is surprising.

Speaker 3 (24:05):
It's not listen.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
It's one of those things where like, yeah, I mean
even I'm sure people listening might be able to say,
you know, it's a messy situation. There's so many nightmare
stories when it comes to custody battles and if this
you know, like, you know, yeah, I think so, there's
just they're just operating out of fear, you know what
I'm saying. You know, she is an unpredictable person who
has an immense amount of control and power in this situation,

(24:30):
and that's scary when when unpredictable people have power and control.
So I get where the reservations are coming from, you know,
I whether we understand it, whether we would do the
same thing, it's just it's it's coming from a place
of fear. So he just has to see this as
an opportunity. He has to see this as the biggest
challenge of his life to date, and a challenge that

(24:51):
like again, you know, whatever frustrations that this person brings
in his life, he has a chance to like have
a impact on someone's life. In a meaningful way, and
very often we don't get to do that, you know,
and parenting is one is an opportunity for all of us.

Speaker 5 (25:10):
Yeah, I do agree that I think it would be
helpful for my husband to have a really good one
on one conversation. I don't think that that's actually happened
up until this point. He has been involved in like
a more of a group conversation, but hasn't had like
that one on one time with him. And I think,
as you know, as a parent, my husband is less

(25:31):
patient with the situation because he sees like how he'll
like say one thing and then not follow through with it,
Like he acts like he wants it but doesn't.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
Actually he needs to be patient and he needs to
like also challenge his friend. But there needs to be
a level of patients listen, like you guys, clearly he's
disconnected from this kid. He's never been a dad, like
you said, he hasn't met this child. The bond isn't there.
You know, he didn't like get to nest with his
you know, pregnant partner at the time in which she
you know, like which even then, you know, like even dads.

(26:04):
I remember when I was pregnant with River. It's like
there's a different bond that moms have, you know, when
you meet. So he doesn't have that, right. You guys
have this because you're bonding and connecting with your family.
You've seen, you know, you're You're just assuming how he's
going to feel once he meets his kid, and so
he needs to be patient. But it can kiss is
sit and patient and it's challenge him and it's like
it's more like you got to he's he's got to

(26:25):
believe in his friend because you know, his mom and
his sister are just.

Speaker 3 (26:29):
Feeding him with fear.

Speaker 2 (26:30):
It's just like, I don't know, man, she can make
the rest of your life in the next eighteen the
next twenty years are just going to be miserable, and
she's going to try to take your money and you know,
YadA YadA, and like, yeah.

Speaker 5 (26:40):
That's good advice. Yeah, And I do have another question.
So he's kind of at a crossroads now where the
next step is to establish legal paternity.

Speaker 4 (26:50):
She won't willingly do it.

Speaker 5 (26:53):
And he has he has said and acknowledge that is
what I need to do. It's been five months and
there hasn't he hasn't done that yet, but what if
then he gets to the point where he makes that
decision it is determined that he's the father, and then
he ultimately decides I don't want to be involved, which
is a strong possibility.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
What are you asking me?

Speaker 5 (27:15):
Like?

Speaker 4 (27:16):
How Like what I struggle with is like being okay
with that?

Speaker 2 (27:19):
I guess, And okay, what do you mean you like, like,
what are you worried about? Are you worried about pushing
this guy to do the thing that you want him
to do? And he decides to back out and then
now he's like.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
No, I'm worried about him just ultimately deciding like no,
I don't want to be involved, and like, are we
okay with that as his friend of him just like
not being involved in the child's life.

Speaker 2 (27:41):
Yeah, listen, yeah, I don't think you abandoned this guy.
It is a unique situation. You can always you can
feel how you feel about it. He's going to have
to live with this, you know he will. And the
and the point you're going to make over the short
term is that, like, listen, like this is something you
either going to like end up being really proud of
yourself and it's going to be life accomplishment ten fifteen

(28:02):
twenty years from now when you realize you stepped up
and again like maybe the most meaningful way of your life,
or you're in twenty fifteen, twenty years from now, you're
gonna have a ton of regret, you know, and you
don't know why and in what manner and way that's
gonna manifest this kid. Does this kid reach out to
his absent father and and and say, why weren't you

(28:22):
there for me?

Speaker 3 (28:22):
Why'd you leave me alone with this woman?

Speaker 2 (28:25):
Or or is he gonna wish you know, or is
he just gonna have nightmares about his son?

Speaker 3 (28:30):
You know, Like I don't know, maybe.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
He keeps chasing the wrong women and he'd ends up
you know, not being a father and the way he planned.
I don't know, And then I just he It's like
that's not your you know, he will have to pay
whatever consequences. It's not your job to like punish him
by like alienating him. You don't have to love what
he's doing. But like it's he hasn't turned into a

(28:52):
bad guy. It's not like he's magically unsafe around your
kids or he's doing low character things like yeah, we
didn't we wouldn't do what he's doing. We don't agree
with it, but you can still empathize with the situation
he's in, and you don't have to praise them for it.
You don't have to pretend that you're okay with it.
I don't think it has to define your friendship going forward.
If ultimately he doesn't man up, he'll have to live

(29:13):
with those consequences.

Speaker 4 (29:15):
Yeah, that's really helpful.

Speaker 5 (29:16):
We've just because we don't have any there isn't anybody
else that's pushing him in that direction. We just didn't
want it to seem like to him that it was
coming across that we were okay with the situation. Now,
mind you, I think it's pretty clear he knows where
we stand on it, especially being parents.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
But I think I just want to I want.

Speaker 4 (29:34):
Wearing it with complacency.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
I want I want The big message I want to
get across to you is that if you're going to
be successful in convincing him to do what you think
he should do, it's not going to come from a
place of you, guys, being his parent and being disappointed
in him and letting him know that you don't agree
with it. Like at the end of the day. This
is you know what I'm saying, Like he already knows
that you don't agree with it.

Speaker 4 (29:56):
Like spin it into more positive.

Speaker 2 (29:57):
Yeah, you know, it's like if if you've threatened to
not talk to him anymore, he's just gonna get victimize
himself again. You know what I'm saying, He's going to
put himself as a victim. You got to make him
feel empowered. You got to make him feel like this
is the right thing to do, that this is a
chance to fulfill his destiny as like a person who

(30:18):
like very few people nowadays, like yeah, like most people
are emotionally weak, you know, people who don't step up
to challenges, who victimize themselves and are kind of losers.
And he has a chance to be a winner here.
He has a chance to be a winner and step
up in ways that most people wouldn't step up. And
and it's going to be hard, and it's going to

(30:39):
be a battle, and it's not going to be fun,
especially early on, but the reward is so great at
the end of like this fact that he was you know,
and he has to see that he is not going
to make this decision because his friends are disappointed in him.
You know what I'm saying, that's not why he's going
to do this, So it really doesn't matter, Like you
don't have so much. Yeah, you're thinking about, well, how

(31:01):
do we make him feel shame if he doesn't do
what we want to do. I would that's just a
waste of your energy.

Speaker 5 (31:06):
Yeah, and no, it's not that, I think what it's
not that we want him to feel shame at all.
I think it's that we just see so much potential
in him. Like he's a really solid human. He's a
great friend, he's got a great job. He you know,
he's just got so a great family. He's got so
much going for him, and he doesn't see what we
see in him, Like he lacks confidence and he's super

(31:28):
good looking, like girls just like feah.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Listen, if he had, if he had the right woman
in his life who was saying, hey, we're gonna do
this together, he would, but he, you know, he's alone
and he doesn't have the you know, and listen, I
don't know what I would do ten years ago if
I was like single as fuck and going out a
bunch of dates and dating women my age or older

(31:51):
and younger and just being like, I don't fucking know
at this point, you know, like, you know, we are
in a a in an emotionally healthy situations and we
have support system that he doesn't have. So you you
have to give him some empathy. You just have to
like really make him believe in himself and see the
opportunity here.

Speaker 4 (32:10):
So how do you? How do you?

Speaker 5 (32:12):
Because that is like one of our biggest issues or
his one, not ours, his is that he lacks confidence.
So I'm consistently like in our conversations guiding him, like, hey,
you have you so much going for you, Like, how
do I kind of at the end of the day,
I can only do so much? And like he is
in therapy, his therapist, in my opinion, I have shared

(32:34):
with him, like he does need any therapist, But how.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
Do I continue? Just continue doing what I'm doing?

Speaker 5 (32:39):
Any other advice to Honestly, Yeah, his confidence is really
you can.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
Only do so much, you know, like a lot of
his confidence probably comes from his childhood, you know, I
hope his mom made him believe in himself. You can
only do so much, but keep doing what you're doing.
And you're in again slow burn, Yeah your husband as well,
But yeah, you're you can only do so much.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
Yeah, that's that's what I figured you would say.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
He's only thirty five, you know, Listen, the good news
is as a guy, you know, like the time's a
little more gracious and forgiving with men who figure their
shit out later in life. So maybe there's still hope.
But like again, just yeah, just keep helping them believe
in himself. That's all you can do.

Speaker 5 (33:18):
Okay, all right, all right, thanks Nick, I appreciated that
is really helpful.

Speaker 4 (33:22):
How my husband talk to him.

Speaker 5 (33:23):
I think that, you know, could be a great next step,
and just overall I think not even I don't think
it's like vocally that we are negative about it, but
I think we could when we do have conversations, just
like spend it as more of an opportunity. So he
starts to change his mindset around it being less of
a burden and like an issue.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
He's got to think forward ten to fifteen, twenty years
about how he thinks he's going to think about himself
then depending on what he does today, and does he
really think he's going to regret stepping up?

Speaker 3 (33:55):
You know, no matter all.

Speaker 2 (33:56):
Of what is sure to be a bunch of shitty
moments and challenges and adversity dealing with this person, but
at the end of it, he has someone who he
helped raise and was a meaningful presence in this person's
life and really helps say them Or is he going
to be the person who, you know fifteen twenty years

(34:16):
ago chickened out and played the victim and didn't own
up to the fact that, like he was a consenting
adult and a pivotal moment of his life, and instead
of stepping up, he took the easy way out and
as a result, it doesn't have a relationship with someone
he's the father of.

Speaker 5 (34:33):
And I can definitely tell it weighs on him like
it's a heavy thing it I can I absolutely know
in ten years he'll have regret, like it's something he
thinks about regularly.

Speaker 2 (34:44):
Don't tell him what he's you know, just keep asking.
Just paint the picture, you know, Okay, yep, all right,
I'll take take care.

Speaker 4 (34:52):
Thanks Nan.

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Speaker 3 (38:58):
How's it going?

Speaker 8 (39:00):
My name is Lindsay. I'm twenty eight and I was wondering,
should I tell my friend that her soon to be
ex husband used to be my therapist?

Speaker 2 (39:08):
How long you been friends with this person?

Speaker 8 (39:12):
So I've known her, let's call her Sarah. I've known
Sarah about three years. We work. We're both fitness instructors
at the same studio, so we've known each other in
passing if our classes are at the same time. But
I haven't been friends friends with her until very recently.
Just a few weeks ago, we started watching Bachelor and

(39:32):
Paradise together every week, and that's really the first time
that I've ever hung out with her outside of work.
But I followed her on Instagram the whole time I've
known her, so I knew that she got married in
twenty twenty three. And that's actually how I knew that
her husband was a therapist. She posted about it that
he was beginning his practice and if you want a
new therapist, here's the link. And I was like, you

(39:54):
know what, I could use a new therapist.

Speaker 2 (39:56):
So wait, wait you so she referred indirectly referred you
to her husband.

Speaker 8 (40:01):
Yes, And so that's what makes it extra weird is
not only did her husband at the time. Not only
was he my therapist, but I knew going into it
that he was her husband, which always felt a little
bit weird.

Speaker 2 (40:15):
And you didn't tell her because why you just didn't
want anyone to know you were in therapy or was.

Speaker 8 (40:20):
It partly that? Yeah, I didn't want to really talk
about it. It was, I mean, a really really tough
time for me for so many reasons, and so I
didn't really want to just be like, oh, yeah, therapy.
But also because I didn't know her very well. We
weren't very close, so I thought it would be a
little bit odd.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Okay, and he's no longer your therapist, like you sucked.

Speaker 3 (40:40):
Or what like.

Speaker 8 (40:41):
Yeah, Oh, I just didn't like his therapy style. It
wasn't what I needed at the time. So he was
my therapist for about six months, okay, and then in
January I mid thirties, mid late thirties. Yeah, in January
they were.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
Married for less than two years. Huh, yes, yep, you know.
Do you know the tea?

Speaker 8 (41:03):
Yeah, so I got the tea last week from her
and from her yeah, when we were watching Bachelor in
Paradise before we started the episode. It's me her and
a couple of her best friends, and so her friends
already knew. But essentially the tea is he has borderline
personality disorder and was just very extreme, very controlling, very troubled,

(41:26):
had substance abuse issues, put on a pretty face when
he was outside the house, but then he would come
home to her and kind of just be nasty and
she had had enough. Is essentially the tea And yeah, yeah,
that's the thing is I'm kind of shook because I
never knew, like, you know, I only knew him in
a very professional manner, and we never talked about his
personal life, obviously because he was my therapist.

Speaker 2 (41:48):
I'm assuming this is a friendship that early on you
value and that you want to maintain.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (41:53):
Yeah, I've always really kind of wanted to be friends
with her, but it's always kind of scary to reach
out to someone and be like, hey, you seem really cool.
We should hang out. But yeah, also, mid late thirties.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
You do absolutely need to tell her.

Speaker 8 (42:07):
Okay, yeah, okay, that happens.

Speaker 2 (42:10):
Convinced me, well, I mean, clearly, this is like you
were hoping i'd say something different just for fun. The
part of your brain that's clearly too scared to tell
her forgetting about your fears. Set your fears aside.

Speaker 3 (42:25):
Give me the.

Speaker 2 (42:27):
Unemotional argument of why you think it would be better
not to tell her.

Speaker 8 (42:33):
Unemotional argument, I have no one emotional Okay, well, okay,
so I guess your point. Your point is being made, Nick,
I think really I just am wondering if there's a point,
just because if she and that's part.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
She definitely to answer your question if if like she
actually she absolutely this could this could end your friendship,
Like yeah, it just could you know, totally get where
you're like your best You just have to be honest
and hope that she receives it at a time in
a place where she can get past the emotional trigger.

(43:10):
And what is going to initially feel like a kind
of a violation, Right, I'm completely disconnected from the story.
And when you know, it took took you about three
minutes for you to like paint the picture of the story.

Speaker 3 (43:23):
And then like the first minute, I was.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Like, God, seems kind of fucked up, like why didn't
how could she not tell her? And then it's kind
of like, okay, I don't know, Like therapy, there's a
level of prop you know, Okay, I get it. She
just didn't want you know, she had shit going on.
She didn't really know this girl, and like there's some awkwardness,
but like every day, every put it this way, like
you should have told her before she confided in you

(43:46):
about the tea, right, because every instant that this woman
opens up to you and trust you with something that
she's not necessarily trusting with other people. And you have
something that you are not sharing with her that you
know she would like to, something that personally involves her,
like her divorce has nothing to do with you. It

(44:07):
feels like a violation. And that is this going to
when when we meet people in adult life ultimately, whether
it's a romantic relationship or a friendship. And especially as
a woman, you can appreciate this as much as anyone.
Like your Your first thought is is this person safe
for me to be around?

Speaker 8 (44:27):
Yeah, and to really make that decision, you need to
have all the information and she doesn't have all the information.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
Well yeah, now you kind of it's a little snake
in the grassy and it's just like you're feeding her,
she's feeding you information, you're holding information back.

Speaker 8 (44:41):
It's so what should I do then? Because that's and
I would think. So she gave me the tea. It
was last week, so it wasn't that long ago. We
were with her friends and they were talking about one
of his friends was coming to get his stuff from
her garage, and so it came up and just like
enough like little things were dropped here and there that
I was like, I I'm just I'm a nosy bitch,

(45:02):
and I was trying not to let it get the
best of me, but enough was being dropped that it
got the best of me, and I was like, okay.
So I asked her, like when we were there with
her friends, if she felt comfortable talking about it, and
I'm like, you don't have to, but like what happened,
Like I'm really curious, and so she like opened up
to me, like with her friends there who already knew,
And like, I guess, are you saying maybe that would
have been a good moment or before then, I've never

(45:25):
really been with this woman one on one. It's always
been either at a studio or around her friends.

Speaker 2 (45:31):
Listen, you should have told her, I don't know the
danamic of your friendship, but like in my world, I
would have as soon as you like hell, like, yeah,
I'm actually like your husband's my therapist thanks to the
references like a casual but at the same time, I
don't know what's like to being your shoes. I don't
know how sensitive therapy was.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
For you in that moment.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Understand that not everyone's comfortable sharing who their therapist is,
you know, like my therapist's name is Darlene.

Speaker 3 (45:58):
You know, like whatever I was.

Speaker 2 (46:00):
My therapist, I was referred to by a friend who's
now wife has the same therapist, and we don't really
talk about it, so I understand there's a level of
sensitivity about like we go to the same person for
like I don't know, I get where you're coming from.
I don't know if she will hopefully she will. Thank god,

(46:20):
you personally hate him as your therapist, Like you have
that going for you.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
You're like I did, I just.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
But you're gonna have to get it out fairly quickly.

Speaker 8 (46:31):
Uh huh okay, ah, you know, and.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
You're gonna have to acknowledge that, like I need to
tell you something. I had my reasons, I handled it poorly,
but like I really value this your friendship, and I
you know, especially in adulthood. And here's why, and I
but I wanted to tell you. This is no excuse
I didn't know how to tell you. I should have
told you beforehand. And my reasons for not telling you

(46:57):
sooner is because, like I was trying to figure it out,
but I would that this is wrong, and I listen,
like I'm telling you because I value trust and I
want people to be trustworthy in my relationship. And I
want you to feel like I'm a friend that you
can trust. And I don't feel like I wouldn't be
hind And I think you just kind of get it
out very vulnerably without trying to make excuses you really

(47:18):
don't like. And she has every right to be as
mad as she wants to be. That's the important thing,
is like if she gets super mad, you just have
to let her be mad. That's not at the point
where you're like, but but I had the right to
feel this way. You know, she might need some time
to like take a break from you. I don't know,
maybe she like she might be like girl at least

(47:39):
we both hate him. I don't know, like it really
could go either way. I don't know, like you have
to allow her to be she has the right. She's
going through a divorce that's obviously very vulnerable. It sounds
like her ex, you know, if he is a therapist
and a little toxic. I'm sure on some ways he's
made you know, he's fuck with her emotions. Take full responsibility,

(48:03):
you know, and just I don't know, You're gonna have
to let it play out, but you have to tell her.

Speaker 3 (48:09):
You have to tell her.

Speaker 4 (48:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (48:10):
Yeah, And the sooner I do it, the better. Yeah,
I think. Yeah. I think my only redeeming grace here
that might make it okay is last week her opening
up about like why she's getting divorced. Is really the
first time that we like kind of crossed that line
into like a vulnerable friendship. Before last week, like we
literally were just coworkers who had started watching reality TV together.

(48:32):
And so I'm hoping that because that door was like
just barely opened, that it's still an okay time.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
To Yeah, and I think you just say listen. It
feels weird and I feel like I should have just
told you. But at the time, I just was like
very nervous about therapy. I didn't really know where to
get a therapist.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
That's a very common, you know thing.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
She provided a link because I'm sure she'll remember and like, yeah,
that that happened at a time where I honestly just
was like very nervous about therapy, and so no, I
wasn't like I wasn't trying to like advertise I was
in therapy, even though like it was your husband at
the time and you know, doctor patient kind of things.

Speaker 3 (49:10):
So I just kind of set that aside.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
But now that we've gotten closer and it, you know,
and I don't work with him anymore, I just but
like I felt like I should tell you because I
I didn't want to keep that from you, and I don't,
like I want friendships in my life where like you know,
there's we can there's a level of trust, and I'm
really sorry if I violated that trust.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
I don't think I handle it as best as I could.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
But this is me trying to do that, and I think,
you know, so you say something like that, like what
you don't want to do is be like, well, this
is why I said this, and this is why I
was justified for saying this is this is why I'm
not wrong. Like you're wrong, and that's fine and maybe
well intentioned, and maybe they're you know, you're just have
to hope that she is in a position to empathize

(49:55):
with the position you were in and then offer you
grace knowing that like the person she got to know, well,
like the mistake you made. Is I guarantee you she's
made a version of this mistake at some point in
or life. The question is is she in a position
to see that and to recognize that and offer you
the grace that you're hoping to get from her.

Speaker 8 (50:16):
Ah'm scared, Yeah, but that is my predicament here.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
That's life.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
But like what you don't want to do is like
let your fears justify your choices, because that's when you
get into territory of just like shitty behavior that you're
able to justify because you don't want to be inconvenienced
by some confrontation or the fear that you could lose someone.
But you are establishing relationships based off of like deceit

(50:45):
and lies, and you wouldn't appreciate being in that position.
And you want to feel comfortable with the people you
surround yourself with. And you know what it's like, I
am sure to have made friends and feel like they
were kind of being shady and little misleading and having
to be like, I don't know if I should fuck
with this person. And I really used to fuck with
this person, but like, I don't know, they're just kind

(51:07):
of they always have excuses, is why they can't just
be fucking up front?

Speaker 8 (51:11):
Yeah no, that makes sense. Okay, then I need I
need your advice then on like how I should tell her,
Like should I be like, hey, let's get coffee? Like,
so we're not watching batter in Paradise this week because
she had a conflict. So that buys me some time
until I see her Atain.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
You only hang out.

Speaker 2 (51:28):
I wouldn't do it that night. I wouldn't do it
around her other friends.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah, have you had do you guys? Have you guys
gotten lunch? Would that be a first? If you asked
her out for lunch.

Speaker 8 (51:37):
It would be a first. And again I'm not making
excuses for myself, but that's part of the reason I
haven't told her. I've never been alone with this woman. Really,
It's always been either at work around clients or with
her friends, and so this this would be a first.
But I don't think it would be weird if I
asked her to get coffee. I don't think she'd be
like whoa like coming on to ask her?

Speaker 2 (51:58):
You know, but hey, there's something I wanted to I
always hate the load, like someone wanted to talk to.

Speaker 8 (52:03):
You about right exactly, Like we need to talk, you talk.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Don't get mad, don't get scared.

Speaker 8 (52:08):
I don't want to freak her out, you know, like like.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Hey, do you like do you want to get a
coffee sometime?

Speaker 3 (52:13):
I wanted to run something by you?

Speaker 8 (52:15):
Yeah? Yeah? And I could just ask her, like, hey,
since we're not watching Bachelor in Paradise this week, like,
can we just like hang out and do something else
instead so I can still see you.

Speaker 2 (52:25):
I would maybe just say that run something by you.
It's going to catch her off guard, but it won't.
It won't freak her out because running something by you
sounds like you're going to hurt for advice.

Speaker 8 (52:33):
Yeah, okay, if you say so. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (52:37):
I don't know if that's the best way.

Speaker 8 (52:38):
I could be, like, well, what are you running by me?
Like I want to know right now?

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I don't know how. Yeah, I don't know who knows
she is about that stuff?

Speaker 8 (52:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (52:47):
Yeah, I just say, you know, you try to get
together with her or call her facetimer. I don't know
would you have you ever r have you called her ever?

Speaker 3 (52:54):
Have you faced?

Speaker 5 (52:55):
No?

Speaker 8 (52:55):
No, that's the thing, like we really this friendship is
brand new, but I don't want to ruin it, like
right from the jump, and it sounds like maybe I
am if I don't change something quickly.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
Listen, you don't know this girl. It's like a new relationship.
You just have to come clean. Listen. She also just
like this is also think of it in dating terms too, right,
understand that this is an exciting person. You got to
meet some good chemistry early on, or some good compatibility
of mutual interest in batchlerm paradise. This friend has a
lot of potential, just like a potential romatic partner does.

(53:31):
Right and right now you're seeing it through rose colored glasses.
You're a little vulnerable about some baggage you're bringing into
this relationship. You know, it's like, will they accept me
because of this baggage I had that had really nothing
to do with them, but like definitely could affect their
opinion of me, et cetera, et cetera. But how people

(53:51):
handle this appointment, how they handle adversity, says a lot
about their ability to be a part of your life.

Speaker 3 (53:57):
And in a relationship with you as some kind in
the future.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
And so you know that while you know you kind
of fucked up and maybe handled the past like this
is not a malicious thing. This is definitely there's a
little bit of like what a coincidence, what a like
create like, oh my god, like it just kind of
happened this way. I definitely wasn't expecting to be this
woman's friend. Turns out like I mean, listen, ex wives

(54:21):
and mistresses have become best friends, you know what I'm saying. So,
like you, guys, there's a chance that this really is
just a small bump in the road. I don't know
this person, you know, but if this, if this girl
is just completely unwilling.

Speaker 3 (54:35):
To see your point of view at.

Speaker 2 (54:37):
All, then you know, maybe it's just also not the
friendship that you thought it would be, you know, because
any friendship and relationship it requires empathy and grace and
understanding and vulnerability and things like that. And if she
hears you out, it does make a lot of sense.
You know, there's gonna be a little bit of like
you know, I would say, say, listen, when you were

(54:58):
telling I felt wrong hearing you open up about your
ex I only knew know him in a professional capacity.
But I also didn't want to bring it up because
I didn't want to bombard you with the truth around
your friends, and I just didn't know how you would
feel about it. That's not an excuse, that's just was
my reason. And I just don't know you well enough
to know how I should have delivered that information. And

(55:21):
so you just say, like, I you know, vulnerably like I.

Speaker 3 (55:25):
I like, I don't make this.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
You can say that sounds corny, but like an adult,
like I've really enjoyed becoming friends with you, and I
value this friendship and I want to be up front
and honest with you, and I I would if I
want to come to you and just tell you, and
if you I'd love to hear how you know, like
just tell me how you feel you have a right
to be upset and if you you know, and going forward,

(55:49):
I hope that we're never in a position like this again.
But I do want to be upfront with my friends
and I want I want them to feel like I'm
someone who it just is as transparent as I possibly
can be, and I want to be transparent with you.

Speaker 8 (56:05):
Yeah, No, that that all makes sense, and like, like
I said, like I like, I don't know her super
well either, but from what I know about her, I
feel like she would take it okay, But you're right.
If she doesn't, then she has that right as well.
I do think it helps that it's been over six
months since he was my therapist. I think that like
distance helps and the fact that I.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
That's not really for you to decide, you know.

Speaker 8 (56:30):
Yeah, no, that's true. That's true. If she doesn't think
it helps.

Speaker 2 (56:32):
You're just you're wasting your energy trying to like decide
for her how she like, what she's going to like
you don't you have no idea?

Speaker 8 (56:43):
Yeah, you're right, I'm just trying to mentally prepare myself.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
Oh my gosh, So you became friends with her role.

Speaker 8 (56:48):
Recently really in the past few weeks.

Speaker 2 (56:52):
Okay, I think you're going to be okay. I mean again,
this all makes sense. It makes sense why you didn't
tell an acquaintance that.

Speaker 3 (56:59):
You're like her therapist was her ex.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Husband, because like, ultimately, like you're not out there advertising
that you're in therapy, but now that you've become friends
with her, it just feels like something like friend a
friend like you wanted her to know because obviously she
opened up to you and you just didn't know how
to handle it in the moment when you were around
a group of people. But like, I don't want I
always want my friends to feel like I. I don't

(57:24):
keep things from them that are their business, you know, Yeah,
And I feel like this is your business as much
as mine now that we're friends and you're opening up
to me about this guy, and I just I you know,
And so I really think I think that's why you
reaching out like will fit that narrative of why you
didn't tell her awong the friends, because this is you
making sure you guys are alone because I just didn't.

(57:46):
I didn't want to. I didn't know if you wanted
me to tell you that way.

Speaker 8 (57:50):
So mm hmm, No, that that completely makes sense. And
I mean I guess, like worst case scenario, she's like,
screw you, and then when I went into her at
the studio, it'll be awkward.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Like I don't think she's gonna say screw you. I
mean that that would basically what you're also just based
on what you're telling me, it doesn't seem to justify
a screw you, Like I get your point of view, right,
this is definitely like, I don't know what you could
have done differently, but I get why she might feel
a little weird about this.

Speaker 8 (58:18):
Yeah, yeah, And the longer I go without tell.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
It's just like right now, right she, this is a
woman who probably has trust issues. Anyone going through a
divorce has some kind of trust issues or some kind
of emotional trauma. There's a very vulnerable like, yeah, when
shit happens to you, it's hard not to get paranoid
about it repeating itself, right, Like when you go through
a breakup or a divorce, there's always the like, how

(58:43):
did I not see this coming? You know, they presented
one way. Now they're a different person. So like her
radar for that type of behavior is probably more heightened now.
So I'm just coming from that perspective, not the like
you fucked up and how could you have done this?
And like, I just can't, I can't reason with your logic.

Speaker 3 (59:04):
I'm not there.

Speaker 2 (59:04):
Like everything you've said makes a ton of sense on
why you got to this point, But what really matters
going forward is that again, don't allow those excuses to
get you into the territory of now six months go
by you've been friends with this chick for six months,
you still haven't told her. You're still in kind of

(59:25):
that gray area of like, you know what, I kind
of get it. She didn't really know what to say.
She told me pretty fast. And then when you sit
down and you emphasize honesty and communication and wanting to
be upfront and having that difficult conversation with her, if
she is a reasonable person despite going through this very
vulnerable state, I'm assuming she will see that rather than

(59:47):
being the person who's this like very defensive, very argumentative,
trying to justify everything. You know, that to me, that
matters more because that will be more telling. You know,
It's like when you date someone again, use that same analogy.
If you you just people will give you certain cues

(01:00:08):
about like how they are handling disappointment, and how people
handle disappointment as a huge indicator on how they'll be
in a relationship, whether it's romantic, whether it's a friendship.
And while this is adversity that you guys are facing,
you have an opportunity to give her some indications that
like trust matters to you, healthy communication matters to you.

(01:00:32):
You have a willingness and an ability to like have
confrontation and just be an adult and be vulnerable and
acknowledge that you made some mistakes and you want to
correct them. Those are those are a bunch of green flags,
and you have to be willing to show those green flags,

(01:00:52):
knowing that, like, you don't know this person well enough
to predict how they're going to handle this information, and
you are afraid that she won't handle it well, and
you are are afraid that you're going to lose this
very short, brief but like very nice relationship you've been
able to cultivate.

Speaker 8 (01:01:10):
Yeah, no, that that all makes sense. That makes sense.
I'm scared, Okay, So I'm dying, you know, Yeah, me too. Okay.
So next step then would be to reach out to
her and just ask her either to face TIB or
get coffee or something, because I want to run something

(01:01:31):
by her, and then hopefully.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Well I would say I always say hey, are you
free for coffee whenever? And maybe don't even run something
by maybe she's like yeah great, if she's just like
if she's like, oh, I'm kind of busy, blah blah blah,
like let's get together. I'm not free until next to
you know, Monday, night or.

Speaker 8 (01:01:51):
Whenever it is, I don't know. We always watch it
on Tuesdays a daily on Hulu.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
So anyway, if she's not afraid feelable available till next Tuesday,
then I would say, well, there's something I just wanted
to run by you, or do you have time for
like a quick call or a face time?

Speaker 8 (01:02:05):
Okay, yeah, kind of hold off on that sense of
urgency or something unless she says.

Speaker 2 (01:02:10):
And even then you're creating interacy that you run around
something by her, So you're not being like, hey, there's
something I want to just something I want.

Speaker 3 (01:02:15):
To run by you.

Speaker 8 (01:02:16):
Yeah, because that's what I was wondering. If I just
asked her like, hey, do you want to get coffee
or something? And I am just like left it at that,
would that be any level of like deceitful or anything
asking her to get coffee when I know that the
reason is I want to speak with her about this, But.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
No, because you do you this is a conversation it's
better to have in person. Yeah, Okay, I mean again,
there's no really, I mean, he was your therapist.

Speaker 3 (01:02:38):
You didn't have you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
It's like you didn't have a secret relationship this is
a professional relationship that like includes a level of privacy
and vulnerability. Like I don't know if if her ex
husband was an oncologist, and maybe he was your doctor
because you had a cancer scare of some kind and
maybe you just didn't want the world to know that,

(01:03:00):
Like you would have the right to like keep that
a secret. You know, Like I don't think you should
lean on that or harp on that, but I just say,
you know, like, listen it. This is all happened when
like I was I needed therapy. I wasn't And maybe
I don't know if you're comfortable talking about why you
needed therapy now with her that you can open, like
you can offer that as like almost like you know,

(01:03:22):
she shared.

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Something with you. Now you're you're gonna.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Share something with her that's vulnerable and you hope that
she accepts whatever. But it has happened at a time
where you're just like I just didn't like think of
going up to this random girl who was more of
an acquaintance being like just you know, your husband you
could have, but I just didn't know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:37):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
I was very private about my therapy at the time.
It didn't work out he's not my therapist anymore. Happy
to like, whatever you want to know about that, I'll
tell you. But like, and then we became friends, and
I just kind of froze, and I didn't really know
what to say. But I really like you as a friend,

(01:03:59):
and and I don't want anyone, let alone with my friends,
to feel like I keep things from them. And so
I didn't tell you last week because we were around Betty,
Sue and Diane, and I just wasn't sure how you
would receive this or if they cared, and I just
I didn't want to assume. So I hope this is

(01:04:19):
the I hope this comes across as the most mature
way of handling this, because that's what I'm trying to do.
But I I and if whatever questions you have, and
if I don't know if this, I don't even know
how you're gonna feel about it, But like, I just
I want you to know that, like I just wanted
to tell you, and however you want to feel about it,
I'm is how you know you have the right to

(01:04:40):
I get it.

Speaker 8 (01:04:41):
Yeah, yeah, just being so open and vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (01:04:45):
Yeah, that's your best approach, if she she I honestly
thinks she it'll be fine.

Speaker 8 (01:04:50):
I really do, Okay, okay, yeah, yeah, she's a very
like level headed person, and so I do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
Yeah, like you might like just love that you fired him,
so like there's that like she probably would fond truly,
I mean it, just you know, she just that her
first thought, her first question will be like, if you
don't get it out in time for her to ask,
her first question would be.

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
Like, is he still your therapist? Yeah, that's going to
be her first thought.

Speaker 8 (01:05:19):
Lead with that he used to.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
Be my therapist. I fired him a long time ago.
That I would honestly lead with, That's how I would
deliver it. Your husband used to be a therapist. I
fired him a long time ago when we weren't friends,
and I just didn't like I was very private about
my therapy and just very like honestly like insecure about
just getting therapy in general. I don't know if that
and so I didn't really want to tell anyone. And

(01:05:44):
then we became friends, and I feel like you should
know that, And I hope that how I'm delivering this
doesn't come across as misleading. And I didn't tell you
when we were with the girls last time because I
just didn't know if that would be be bombarding you,
and I didn't know you well enough to know how
you want this information. How do you want you to

(01:06:05):
receive this information? So this is my best attempt at
trying to do it the right way.

Speaker 8 (01:06:10):
Yeah, best attempt. Yeah, for sure. Oh my goodness, Okay,
I'm stressing. I'm stressing.

Speaker 3 (01:06:17):
It's gonna be a thank you.

Speaker 8 (01:06:18):
This is this is really helpful. Yeah, because I was
like I needed someone That's why I wrote it, because
I was like, I need someone who doesn't know anyone
involved to kind of just.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
See have you run this spot and have they're giving
you anything different.

Speaker 8 (01:06:32):
Literally, I've only run it by two of my friends.
One of them she was like, I think you should
tell her, but I just don't have any idea how
you could possibly approach that conversation. And then the other
one was like, if she's never gonna find out, then
maybe it doesn't matter. So I kind of got conflicting opinions.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Yeah, I think there's way more to be gained for
the long term by telling her.

Speaker 8 (01:06:57):
Yeah, I'm never gonna be able to stop thinking about it.
It's always going to be in the back of my
mind and I'm not a very good liar, and so
I feel like when I have something to hide, I
act a little bit weird, and I think if I
held it in for too long, she would kind of
start to pick up.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Well, then it's not really the friend. I mean again,
I don't know why you're choosing your friendships and adult life,
but it's just like it's a tainted relationship that to
begin with, that's more based off of your mutual interest
in a TV show rather than I've found someone in
my adult life that I can build a meaningful relationship
with that can maybe grow and do, Like I don't

(01:07:34):
know someone I go to for emotional support, someone who's
really in my very small, trusted inner circle of friends.
I mean, she might not this person might not get
there to begin with. But if you're looking for those
type of people in your life, that's how you have
to start these relationships.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
And if you're.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
Looking for like acquaintances that like are fun to hang
out with in seasons of your life, that then you
take a different approach. But like I think too many
people treat what they call friendships as basically like you know, temporary,
they're like friendship situationships you know, it's like.

Speaker 8 (01:08:11):
Yeah, yeah, and I've had those, but this, Yeah, I mean,
she's really a wonderful woman. And like I said, I've
you know, we've been I guess professional acquaintances for a
few years and I've always really looked up to her,
And so now that I have a chance to actually
be her friend, I don't want to screw that up.

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:08:26):
I seem like an amazing person.

Speaker 2 (01:08:28):
Probably respects how you handled it. It's not difficult to do, and.

Speaker 8 (01:08:32):
Knowing that seems like it's not past saving.

Speaker 2 (01:08:34):
And my guess is if you asked, you know, ten people,
my guess is that the advice you'd get would probably
be fairly split down the middle.

Speaker 8 (01:08:42):
Your reasoning makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Yeah, I mean I'm just more like, I think anyone
who would give you the advice not to tell her
the type of people who don't think about what it
takes to make long lasting friendships or they're not that
interested in having them, and they're just used to it's
not a two way relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
It's just more of them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
And I think if she's the type of friend that
you hope and want her to be, she'll be the
type of person who will appreciate your honesty.

Speaker 8 (01:09:09):
Yeah, no, I think you're right, and that all makes sense,
and hearing it all laid out like that, it feels
pretty clear. Yeah, I definitely need to tell her, and
I need to tell her sooner rather than later.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
And these other women that were part of the group,
are you friends with them too or are.

Speaker 8 (01:09:24):
They more No, so, they're her friends. I've just met
them through her.

Speaker 2 (01:09:28):
Okay, Well that's a little bit of an excuse you
have too, which is also really why you didn't tell them,
is like I wanted to tell you, I didn't want
to tell them about my therapy.

Speaker 8 (01:09:36):
And yeah, yeah, because I don't know these girls really
at all. I've met them two weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (01:09:42):
But you know, I don't know how she will feel
about like, and I guess if you're only really been
friends for a couple of weeks, I guess it wouldn't
have made sense for you to randomly tell someone.

Speaker 7 (01:09:51):
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
You could just be like, I don't I don't know
what your what your expectations about that, or you know,
like I don't know how you know, I don't think
spouses are supposed to like have it's the hip like exactly.

Speaker 8 (01:10:06):
Yeah, Like at the time, it felt like a little
bit of a confidentiality thing. But now you know he's not.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
He's definitely not supposed to tell her, right that would
be a violation. I don't think you're allowed to tell
your spouse as who your patients are just because they're
your spouses.

Speaker 8 (01:10:20):
But now that he's out of the picture as my
therapist and out of the picture as her husband, I'm like, Okay,
now it makes yeah, no, no, no ah, I'm freaking out.

Speaker 2 (01:10:28):
Just tell her. I just be vulnerable.

Speaker 8 (01:10:31):
I think it'll be fine. I think it'll be fine.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
I really do.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Otherwise, you're just are you just saving yourself from someone
who's just maybe a little messy and a little toxic
and Lily just maybe not in a position to like
because like this is definitely this is dramatic, right, I mean, hell,
people listen to this and be like, oh shit, what
a crazy story. It's like it's dramatic. And so if she,
if she's someone who is drawn to drama, she will
use this as drama. And if she is someone who

(01:10:56):
is like drama adverse, and ultimately, like in her adult life,
she's learned how to like separate drama from like like necessity,
you know things she can avoid to like, right, that's
all maturity. And so if she is someone who really
is like looking to like work through disappointment and like
just get to remove drama from her life, you are

(01:11:16):
sending her up in a position to do that. She
might not take the bait. She might decide to use
this as an outlet to release emotion. Who knows, right,
But like this will be telling for this friendship about
how she handles this information because like, ultimately, nothing you
did sounds malicious and there's just maybe s some miscommunication

(01:11:42):
or just not really like a very unique situation where
there weren't define expectations and boundaries for a situation that
usually doesn't present itself.

Speaker 8 (01:11:51):
Yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't even know if when
she put the link out, like you know, she was
just like, you know, a proud wife moment, like oh look,
my husband's doing this thing. Like I don't even know
if she was actually expecting anyone to even consider seeing
her husband as a therapist, do you know totally? Yeah, Okay, Okay,
I feel I'm scared. I'm scared, but I feel better

(01:12:13):
about this because I, yeah, I feel more certain that
I know what I need to do, and like, why
I need to do.

Speaker 2 (01:12:18):
I understand you're scared, but I think you need to
like just remind yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:12:21):
That this is the right thing to do. Yeah, it is,
and you will and.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
Things are going to play out how they're going to
play out. But the real result of how she handles
it does not change your decision.

Speaker 5 (01:12:35):
Tree.

Speaker 8 (01:12:36):
Yeah, yeah, I need to stop kind of trying to
think of different scenarios that could happen and just go in.

Speaker 2 (01:12:43):
Like so many people in this position are basing their
advice off of the outcome you want, right, I want
an outcome, So what do I do to get that outcome? Well,
I want to save this friendship? So how do I
save this friendship right now? But like, the outcome you
want isn't like how to say this friendship right now?
It is like how to do the right thing? How
to be a friend that is, you know, someone that

(01:13:06):
can show that trust in communication matters to me? And
how do I build a friendship that actually, like has
like some real chance of being a meaningful relationship in
my life? And based off of those parameters, what should
I do regardless of the immediate reaction or how she
might feel in the moment, and if your only goals
not feel like you're in trouble, then you know what

(01:13:28):
I'm saying, that's what you make your decision on.

Speaker 8 (01:13:30):
No, yeah, that makes sense. Thank you, by the way
for not making me feel like I'm in trouble.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
It's definitely a super huge coincidence.

Speaker 8 (01:13:38):
And it's a weird situation. It's it's yeah, I was like,
I don't even know, I don't even know, but I feel, yeah,
I feel better after this about what I should do
and kind of just going into it knowing that it's
the right thing to do regardless of the outcome, really
does make me feel better. And I think it makes
it a lot less likely that I'm gonna chicken out
because I feel.

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
Awkward for sure.

Speaker 8 (01:14:01):
Okay, okay, well thank you, Oh my goodness, thank you
so much.

Speaker 2 (01:14:05):
Please let us know what what.

Speaker 8 (01:14:07):
Yeah, yeah, I'll have to send in an update. And
I just also wanted to say I've listened to your
show for years and you've helped me through like all
sorts of things. I've never had to call in before
because you've always helped me through everything, but this is
just this is a special one. So but thank you
for your show.

Speaker 2 (01:14:23):
And thank you for your my pleasure. Thank you for
saying that. And I'm glad that this seems helpful.

Speaker 8 (01:14:30):
It really does.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
All right, all right, well, good luck.

Speaker 8 (01:14:34):
Thanks. I want to know how.

Speaker 3 (01:14:35):
She handles it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:36):
I really think you're gonna be okay, And I honestly
think this, this will bring you closer together. I hope
so like he really sucked at his job.

Speaker 8 (01:14:45):
We can just bond over that. He really wasn't that good.
I gotta be honest.

Speaker 2 (01:14:48):
Sorry, Well, if it was dealing with his own ship, it's.

Speaker 8 (01:14:52):
Apparently, yeah, now I know. Apparently the week I fired
him is the same week that she was like had
had their first talk about it. So I'm like rough
week for him.

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Poor guys.

Speaker 8 (01:15:02):
Yeah, all right, not much sympathy though. All right, well,
thank you so much. I appreciate it.

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Speaker 2 (01:18:00):
How's it going pretty good? How are you good?

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
What's your name?

Speaker 7 (01:18:03):
My name is Grace. I'm thirty one years old, and
I'm wondering how I can move on from my ex
girlfriend who held my keys hostage and hit a social media.

Speaker 3 (01:18:13):
Scandal from me, You're wondering how you move on.

Speaker 7 (01:18:16):
Well, it's less about moving on from her and from
the relationship and more so about the things that were
said and done to me and sort of trying to
reclaim my story and find solace invalidation in my own
experience without requiring like answers or confirmation from other people

(01:18:37):
about what I experienced.

Speaker 2 (01:18:39):
Okay, I kind of get what you're saying, I think,
but without maybe speaking in kind of more I don't know,
philosophical ways, like how are you feeling right now about
this relationship?

Speaker 3 (01:18:50):
Like what is it like?

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
In the simplest way, like what are you feeling that
you're struggling with? And that's kind of like all right,
because that's what you're trying to do, Like this this
relationship things happened, and now it's left you with this
ikey feeling and you don't know how to get rid
of this ikey feeling. Is that Am I articulating that
back to you? Do you feel it?

Speaker 5 (01:19:09):
Like? I?

Speaker 8 (01:19:10):
Yeah? I think so.

Speaker 7 (01:19:11):
I think I was doing a pretty good job of
moving on, so to speak, until I got some information
about my ex and I think, yeah, I'm really just
I'm struggling to like find myself again after.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
All of this what's the information the whole.

Speaker 8 (01:19:31):
Social media thing.

Speaker 7 (01:19:32):
So one of my family members essentially told me that
my ex was involved in this big social media blowout
a few years ago with my ex's ex partner at
the time calling my let's call my ex Joe. So
Joe's ex partner was calling Joe out for being an
abusive partner on social media. And I had like, just

(01:19:54):
heard about all of this the other day.

Speaker 3 (01:19:56):
Why are you struggling with that?

Speaker 7 (01:19:58):
I think because I had a different idea about what
the relationship was and that my ex trusted me and
we had this like beautiful trusting bond.

Speaker 8 (01:20:11):
And it's one thing for that to end. And I mean,
I'm the one that.

Speaker 7 (01:20:14):
Ended it, and I feel very confident about that decision,
But to hear all of these other things after it,
I think I feel icky because I'm like, oh, so
this person was I was abusing other people and and
this has been going on for ages and then I
allowed them into my life and they did it to
me and they lied about it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:35):
And just so I don't know, so your ex was
an alleged abuser or being accused of it, or they
were like harassing and bullying other people online.

Speaker 7 (01:20:45):
Right, No, So my ex was called out online allegedly
for being abusive toward their.

Speaker 2 (01:20:53):
Partner, Okay, a couple of years ago, yeah, a few
years ago, okay, now okay, And so your acts got
called out by someone online for being is it physically
or emotionally abusive?

Speaker 7 (01:21:05):
Emotionally abusive?

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
And are you saying the things that your partner was
accused of. Do you feel like she did that to
you and with you in that relationship?

Speaker 8 (01:21:16):
I do.

Speaker 7 (01:21:17):
I think I'm struggling.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
You don't say that you're convinced of that. You're like
you're looking up to the left and you're like I do, Like, yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:21:26):
I think, And that's sort of what I'm what I'm
grappling with because I so there's like this dichotomy between
like logical and emotional mind. And logically I can say that, yes,
I do feel that my ex was emotionally abusive.

Speaker 2 (01:21:40):
And like in how so I guess like because they
were real, I mean manipulative, reactive or temperamental or yeah,
all they're like every day do they call you a
worthless piece of shit?

Speaker 7 (01:21:53):
It was more so manipulation, I think, and sort of
the classic like you don't really love me, you don't
care about me, you treat me like shit. When I would,
for instance, set a boundary and say, hey, I need
you to go home, I need you to leave my
apartment now. I need to go to sleep and get
up early for work the next day, and then she

(01:22:13):
wouldn't leave, she would stay, and then she would follow
me downstairs when I would try to get space, and.

Speaker 8 (01:22:18):
Then like police got involved.

Speaker 7 (01:22:20):
Like there were just so many things as a result
of my boundaries not being respected and me communicating what
in a way that I thought was very calm and
respectful and being met with You're actually like a narcissist
and you're you're horrible, and you treat me like shit,
you don't love me, you don't care about me, like
those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 (01:22:39):
She called you a narcissist, yeah, or that I.

Speaker 7 (01:22:41):
Had strong narcissistic tendencies, I think was the exact phrasing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:45):
But I just feel like your energy is being focused
on the wrong thing. Well, one, you broke up with
this person, so like got to pat yourself on the
back there. And now you're from if I'm understanding it correctly,
you heard this bit of information that honestly from how
I'm understanding your story. All it really should have done
is validate your decision of moving on from this person.

(01:23:07):
This person, as you're describing, when you reflected in your relationship,
was at best very reactive and when they got triggered,
was very cruel and mean and said things that are
out of pocket that they probably didn't mean or they
you know, they were hurt, so they tried to hurt you.

Speaker 3 (01:23:24):
Hurt people, hurt people.

Speaker 2 (01:23:25):
Things like that, right, And eventually you came to a
point where it's just like, I can't keep doing this anymore.
You know, when it first happened, I'm sure you try
to give your partner the benefit of the doubt. You
try to offer her grace, You tried to work through
it with her, You tried to calm her down, YadA
YadA like and again, like as humans, we all just
decide that, like we are now therapists and we can

(01:23:45):
diagnose other people. And I think there's just a fun
Like a lot about abuse is about consistency.

Speaker 3 (01:23:50):
And there being a pattern.

Speaker 2 (01:23:52):
You know, it is not about like someone having a
bad day and saying things out of pocket that they
have to apologize for and then some meaningful changes in
their life or just never replicate that. And again, I
don't know how much good it's doing by you trying
to figure out whether your ex really did abuse you

(01:24:14):
or if you really knew who your ex was. I
honestly feel like you do knew your X was again,
you know, like you're saying, well, actually, from what I've
heard about what she was accused of back in the day.
You know, the thing that you're triggered by is that
what you heard about your partner you believe, and you
believe because that's the person you dated and got to know.
So it's it's almost like conorintuitive that you have now

(01:24:37):
convinced yourself to have these internal thoughts about like did
I really know this person or I can't you know,
you know, whatever thoughts that you're having right now that
are not, you know, do having the opposite effect instead
of validating your decision to move on from this person.
It's keeping you stuck emotionally and thinking about this person

(01:24:58):
quite you know.

Speaker 3 (01:24:59):
It's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
I got to and a spat with my parents. I
don't know why I brought that up, because I'm random,
but I I as we were going in circles couldn't
get through to her, and then I finally asked my
parents about like, well, what you know? They were talking
about their feelings and I was like, okay, fair enough,
but what how how would you like me to respond

(01:25:21):
so that I can based on off for everything talked about?
And they didn't know how to answer that question, which
may help them saw my point of view because it
was more me. It was because my point was like,
you know, your feelings a value your you know, but
they are just your feelings and it doesn't mean that
you're right. I feel a certain way, you feel a
certain way. We know about that. But once we get

(01:25:44):
past how we feel, what do you want to do
with these feelings? I don't know if that's making any sense,
And I want you to ask yourself that same question,
what do you want to do with these new thoughts
and feelings about your partner? You're already out, you already
left the relationship, So what do you think you need?
What is left to resolve? Like what are the answers

(01:26:06):
that you need? Or are you just ruminating about someone
that fucked you up a little bit and maybe fucked
you up more than you realized in the moment And
you're having a hard time processing you know, the loss,
and yeah, you made a difficult this is our breaking
up of her. But you know what I'm saying, Like,
at some point, if you're going to keep thinking about

(01:26:28):
a topic and you have to try to like fix that,
all right, So it's like, all right, well what can
I do about this?

Speaker 4 (01:26:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (01:26:34):
I think I definitely have a hard time.

Speaker 8 (01:26:39):
Letting thoughts go.

Speaker 7 (01:26:41):
I definitely like I want to analyze, I want answers,
I want to think things through. And ironically enough, yeah,
I love that you mentioned like I'm not a therapist.
You're not a therapist. I'm actually in a master's of
counseling programs, so I really nerd out about like human
behavior and like I want to understand things, and that
is just sort of my for for.

Speaker 3 (01:27:03):
I relate.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
But as someone who's going to school for this, I
mean you might. Yeah, you have to. It's really important
to I think. I mean, if you listen to the show,
you hear all your I'm sure you've heard so many
people call in who are like, yeah, I'm going to therapy.
I go all the time about this very topic and
I've been going for three years. You're just you're not
actually trying to solve the problem, You're just trying to
analyze it, you know, And in your analyzation of this problem,

(01:27:29):
you're just kind of going in circles just you know,
it's something to do. It's you've heard me talk about,
like it's really tough breakups. There there are these, you know,
there's the hey, I don't think we should be together,
let's stop hanging out. And then there's the physical like
cutting that person off, the change, and like your behaviors
and your the things that you did together and just

(01:27:51):
your routines change. But again, that emotional connection can live
on in your mind and body long.

Speaker 3 (01:27:59):
After relationship ends.

Speaker 2 (01:28:01):
And I think ultimately what's happening is that you're still
emotionally connected this relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:28:07):
How long has it been since you broke up?

Speaker 7 (01:28:08):
It's been about three three.

Speaker 2 (01:28:11):
Months, okay, so it's not that How long did you
date for about a year? Okay, so it hasn't been
that long. We're definitely getting to a point where it's like,
all right, it's time to you know. But my guess
is that this is just a subcon a subconscious way
for you to convince yourself that it's okay to think
about this person when you know you shouldn't be thinking

(01:28:33):
about this person.

Speaker 3 (01:28:34):
But you're not.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
Thinking about them in an affectionate, loving way. You're thinking
about them in this kind of like like psychological analyzing thing.
But it's not getting you anywhere. It's not accomplished anything.
You don't even have a goal, right, there's no goal
attached to this, Like what are you trying to figure out?
Like you've you think they were abusive? Really doesn't really

(01:28:55):
matter at this point one way or the other. You're
out of the relationship. Certainly, it's disappointed that you thought
you had a trusting relationship with this person and they
chose not to tell you this information they got called
out on. But you know, if you're trying to even
if you're trying to empathize with your ex, like I
bet she doesn't think that she was abusive, Like in
her mind, she's thinking, oh, my ex is the crazy one, right,

(01:29:18):
she called you narcissistic. A lot of narcissistic people call
other people narcissistic. Maybe your ex and her ex were
both equally toxic and she's a victim in her mind
when it comes to her ex calling her out online.
You right, So that might be her version. I don't know,
of course, so but my point is, what is your goal?

Speaker 7 (01:29:39):
And I think I think I'm struggling with Like I
totally agree with what you're saying about the like cyclical
nature of just analyzing things to death and it not
actually resolving anything, completely agree, But I think that like
I am struggling to move on and just in enjoying

(01:30:00):
my life, move on with my friends, another partner, one day, whatever,
when all of these things were like said and to
me and done to me, and I don't even I
struggle to even label things as emotional abuse or narcissism
and all of these buzzwords.

Speaker 2 (01:30:14):
Like I have a real So when you say you're
struggling to move on about because of what was said
and done to you, like what what specifically calling.

Speaker 7 (01:30:22):
Me abusive, saying that her abuse was reactionary abuse to
my abuse and then and I even talking about it now,
I feel shamed that I was even like involved in
a relationship that is this damaging and that I didn't
leave sooner. But I just it's it's I'm I'm one,
I'm I feel like I'm trying to analyze things to

(01:30:43):
get to the bottom of like, is this did I
do something? Is there something that I could be? Of
course we all have things that we could change about ourselves,
but like, is there something that I have really done here?
Is there any validity to what she has said about
what I have done and things that I could actually
improve on beyond just like general growth?

Speaker 3 (01:31:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (01:31:01):
I trying to figure that out. Crazy because I feel
absolutely crazy, And that is what is really difficult for me.
I don't know if my.

Speaker 3 (01:31:10):
Story so why why do you feel? Why do you
feel that way?

Speaker 2 (01:31:15):
I mean, my my initial reaction to what you just
said is that's a very human response to have. The
fact that you are even questioning and and and willing
to look inside and reflect about the role you played
suggests that like, for one, she called you a narcissist,
that's not a narcissist narcissistic thing to do, right. We
all can be narcissistic and self centered, but most of

(01:31:37):
us have the ability to go, I've been an asshole lately,
or that was selfish of me, or I was wrong
and I'm sorry and I feel guilt for how you know,
you feel guilt for something that you're not even sure
you did and you're worried that you might be you know,
so that in itself suggests that you probably aren't that person.

(01:31:58):
But being the person who wants wants to be a
better person, who wants to take accountability, you really want
to figure this out so that you're not the person
that you're ex accused you of being. Right, it's a
little gas lighting and things like that that maybe your
ex did. But again, like I always go back to,
like you've heard me go on my soapbox about gaslighting, right, Yeah,
you go online and and people will say if, if,

(01:32:22):
if someone says any of these things to you, you're
being gas lit, right and and in and embedded and
those bullet points is some version of that. Garrison calls
you crazy. Again. I've never been in a fight with
a spouse or a partner or whatever, or a friend
where we don't at some point in the fight, I
think the other person's kind of crazy. Right, That's why
you're fighting because you don't. You think their reality is

(01:32:44):
kind of delusional and it's certainly different than your reality,
which is why two people are in conflict. Right. It's
gotten to the people fight relationships, fight like they're emotionally
like triggering like the whole point of being in a relationship.

Speaker 3 (01:32:57):
Like if if you can't get triggered by the person.

Speaker 2 (01:32:59):
You love the most, then you know, it's like it's like,
you know, that's the crazy thing about romantic relationships is
like they're the ones that trigger us the most and
then the most volatile because of the most precious to us,
you know, and they you know, and when we get
hurt by those people, it really hurts, which sometimes causes fights,
and which sometimes causes us to say things we don't
mean and have to apologize. Still, Like again, if you're
struggling with these thoughts, you know, work on this with

(01:33:21):
your therapist and make sure it's going somewhere, you know,
like break it down, you know, break down a fight
that you had and get a second ear on, Like
what could you have to know? You definitely could make
improvements as a girlfriend, you know what I'm saying. You
can be a better partner.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
We all can.

Speaker 2 (01:33:37):
You can certainly be a better partner, So work on that.
I don't think you need to want you know, like, well,
I like hopefully not. I don't think you were you know, again,
I wasn't there, so I can't say for sure, But
the fact that you are even willing to reflect on
something that your ex, who has a pattern of unpredictable
and reactive and potentially abusive behavior, I wouldn't spend that

(01:34:03):
much emotional energy giving it that much attention or validity
to the point where it's really affecting your mental health
and emotional wellbeing, and it's giving that person, you know,
power they don't deserve.

Speaker 7 (01:34:18):
No, Yeah, I agree, that's that's a really good point.
I think I'm I think I'm worried that like other
people in my life might feel this way too, and
and not have said anything. And she's just the one
that actually said. But again, like I guess you can, is.

Speaker 2 (01:34:32):
There someone who comes to mind when you say I'm
worried there's other people in my life who might have
thought this way? If one person in your life outside
of your ex felt this way, who would that be?
Does anyone come to mind?

Speaker 7 (01:34:43):
Not a specific person, I guess, just like friends and family,
And I guess I guess there are certain qualities about myself,
like talking a lot or being kind of loud, and
for both that I that I wonder, like, do those
come off as narcissistic? I just I really care, not
about like not being myself because I think that I

(01:35:04):
am comfortable in who I am, but more than like,
other people that I care about are going to be
upset or offended based on my behavior.

Speaker 2 (01:35:12):
I mean, well, you caring so much about what other
people think of you is, I guess in some ways
has a narcissistic point to it. A lot of what
you're saying seems to be ego driven, which is in
itself kind of has a narcissistic element to it. Whatever,
And yeah, you could work on that for sure, But
if no one comes to mind, if you're not like,

(01:35:34):
you know what, my best friend Jenny, actually, I actually
wonder if if I have I mistreated her, if I
really taken her for granted, And if you're not having
an epiphany about like some crazy shit you've said to her,
I mean, yeah, again, you've probably been self centered or
probably been you know, if this isn't about and this
is not an exercise to be.

Speaker 3 (01:35:52):
Like, you know, how do I annoy you? What are
my bad habits?

Speaker 2 (01:35:54):
Yeah, I'm sure all your closest friends could be like, well,
you know, you're kind of insufferable sometimes when you get
like that, you're hard to be around.

Speaker 3 (01:36:01):
You're I don't know you're really in.

Speaker 2 (01:36:03):
Sure, we all are, but most of us are people
who have seasons of this. If you're old enough to
have probably been a really selfish prick for a half
a year at some point in your life. I don't
know where you just like, you know, especially when we're
when we're the most loss we're the most self centered,
you know, when we're the most like single, because we

(01:36:25):
feel justified to you know, like we're I'm alone. All
my friends have relationships. I don't have what I want yet.
Those are really selfish moments of our lives when we
are like still chasing our dreams. You know, I don't
think that makes you more narcissistic. You know, when you're
in fight or flight mode in a in a fight
in a relationship, sometimes we say things that are hurtful

(01:36:46):
to that other person. Hopefully you apologized at times when
you've you said things to your partner, you know, took accountability.
But yeah, this is not about you. You're ex saying
some things and then you turning into your ego wondering
if people like you. That's kind of what I'm getting
a little bit.

Speaker 7 (01:37:05):
Do you have any advice then or perspective I guess
on how to balance reflecting inward and trying to yeah,
reflect upon what somebody said about you and and do
better and sort of like unpack that a bit and
think like what did I do here? Versus just unproductive overthinking.
Ask yourself, I'm defining where that line is.

Speaker 3 (01:37:27):
Put a definition on it. Ask yourself the goal.

Speaker 2 (01:37:29):
Right, Like the questions I'm asking you, you know, one
like or what am I trying to actually figure out here?

Speaker 3 (01:37:35):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:37:36):
You can ask yourself that question. You can get to
that answer. By asking yourself that question, you get certain answers,
or what is this accomplishing? What am I feeling? What's
the what's the main feeling I have as the result
of this rumination? How is it making me feel? If
a lot of your answers I don't know, then maybe
it's a sign that you're ruminating for for no reasons

(01:37:56):
that you or reasons that you're you can't be honest
with yourself about you know. And and usually that's just
like ego, right, Like our egos are very tricky because again,
like it comes usually you know, it's like disrespect. Not
all ego feelings and thoughts I think are wrong. Right, Like,
our egos help us have self respect and to enforce
our boundaries and stand up for ourselves, and those are

(01:38:18):
important characteristics to have. But the stronger we the better,
the better we are at that, the more at risk
we are of our victor our egos taking over and
are allowing us to see ourselves more as victims in
any given situation. And and then when that happens, we
just kind of go down these rabbit holes. But like,

(01:38:40):
if you can't accomplish anything from your rumination, my guess
is it's probably time to challenge yourself to.

Speaker 3 (01:38:46):
Like move on from it and that you're maybe just.

Speaker 2 (01:38:49):
Analyzing it to stay emotionally invested in it. And if
you're I'm a analytical person. We just like breaking shit down.
It's like puzzles in our head. You're emotionally attached to
this puzzle. It's exciting in some ways, is uh, it's
a challenge.

Speaker 7 (01:39:04):
Yeah. It's tricky though, because I feel like I had
really detached myself from the puzzle and was and was
doing really well emotionally. But this info, which is still
my responsibility, but that.

Speaker 2 (01:39:18):
Was a new piece of a puzzle, right, Like, Yeah,
you're you're describing like, uh, you know, I don't know
I to see like American treasure you know, with Nicholas
Cage whatever, and like his family were like these lifetime
treasure hunters kind of addicted to treasure hunting and things
like that, and at times they'd be more like obsessed
with it or not. But like you got a new clue,
and it was like Nicholas Cage's dad being like, this

(01:39:38):
is just another stupid clue. Like we've we've been following
stupid clues our whole life, right, and he's like, no,
but this is a really good clue. And you got
a clue, and now you're just like, oh, now we're
back on the treasure hunt, you know totally. So yeah,
you were fine. You got triggered. You haven't dealt with
this trigger in a productive way. Yeah, And you've used
this trigger as a way to justify a bad habit

(01:40:01):
you have, which is to overanalyze and ruminate about things
and then ones that you're emotionally connected to. It's just
that much easier to go down these rabbit holes. But
it's not getting you anywhere, it's not accomplishing anything. There's
nothing for you to actually solve. And now you're asking
yourself questions about yourself that I think, deep down you

(01:40:22):
know the answers to. Yeah, you know, ironically it is
self indulgent and it is you thinking about yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:40:29):
So if you really want to.

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
Work on this so called narcissism that you're being accused of,
prove your ex wrong by letting it go.

Speaker 7 (01:40:38):
Yeah, and see, like I've, I've, I feel like it's
coming from a place of well, I want to figure
out what I did wrong so that I can be
a better person to help other people, so that I
can be a better therapist one day, a better mom
one day, a better partner and best friend. But it
is it ultimately leads back to ego and to myself
and then and then and then that fuels the the

(01:41:00):
you know, shame of feeling parcissistic or whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (01:41:02):
So again, yeah, well, once you figure your shout in
the short run, you'll be a better version of yourself
in the long run.

Speaker 3 (01:41:08):
But you know, baby.

Speaker 2 (01:41:09):
Steps, Yeah, you're kind of mind fucking yourself by saying, well,
I'm doing all this to like again, be a better person,
be it by mom, And you've convinced yourself that's the goal,
but it's actually like again that you're not. That's why
that ruminating go into nowhere, because the goal is so
broad and so big and kind of just like unspecific
that you never ask yourself, what am I actually ruminating

(01:41:29):
about in this moment, and what is the specific thing
I'm trying to.

Speaker 3 (01:41:33):
Solve and understand?

Speaker 2 (01:41:35):
And and that's and the reason you can't get there
is because there's nothing really to solve or understanding. You're
broken up. You know that she wasn't right for you.
You know that while you weren't a perfect partner, that
like you were generally okay, but there is some things
you have to work on and that's and that's that
and you and you're not surprised. And honestly, this information
that's clue that you received is not all that surprising.
It just confirms what you already thought. And a person

(01:41:58):
who has shown a pattern of this and pastoral I
have said some very hurtful things that really like got
under your skin and messed you up, and you should
deal with that, but like that shouldn't require you to
stay in your head twenty.

Speaker 3 (01:42:09):
Four to seven for sure.

Speaker 7 (01:42:11):
Yeah, I think there's also an element of this being
my first queer relationship that I'm kind of holding onto
that in a certain way, and it's been more difficult
because I feel like I'm like holding onto this element
of myself that i've like recently let surface. I don't
know if that makes sense, but I think that's part

(01:42:31):
of it too.

Speaker 2 (01:42:32):
And I'm just maybe I probably have a harder.

Speaker 3 (01:42:35):
Time to relating to that aspect than you.

Speaker 2 (01:42:37):
But I at the same time, I just think maybe
you should give you rather than be harder on yourself
about it, you should give yourself more grace.

Speaker 3 (01:42:43):
This is new for me.

Speaker 2 (01:42:44):
A lot of what I'm feeling is new, and I'm
trying to understand it, So focus on that rather than this. Again,
just trying to understand your X on any level is
just a giant waste of your time and energy. Who
was I actually dating, you know, a flawed person of
which you kind of knew about and that's why you

(01:43:05):
broke up.

Speaker 7 (01:43:06):
But is trying to understand myself in relation to what
I went through a waste of time?

Speaker 2 (01:43:11):
I mean, you know, maybe a better question for someone
a little more experience than me, But like, I think
that's a I think you could argue semantics and I
think you can debate that. I think deep down you
know the answer, and it's just striking that balance. It's
just having balancing your life, and it's just reminding yourself
a couple times a day that your ego exists, that
it needs to be constantly kept in check, that it's

(01:43:33):
going to cause you to focus your energy on unpredictive
things that are more ego driven rather than things that
are actually like worth your time and make you happy.
And you kind of know the answer, and like ruminating
over it is really just something to do and entertaining.

Speaker 7 (01:43:49):
It's wild how you can know one thing that isn't
You can know that this isn't productive and that you
don't want to be stuck in this, but there's some
part of you that's clinging to it for god knows
what reason.

Speaker 2 (01:43:59):
So the end, I have found that in those moments,
the answer is almost always your ego. And the more
you get enlightened about your ego, the harder it is
to just you know, check yourself. But like it's also
it can be easy to do and just be like yeah,
I mean all right, Like it.

Speaker 3 (01:44:14):
Never goes away.

Speaker 2 (01:44:15):
Your ego isn't something you conquer and eliminate. It's something
you learn to control. It's a superpower that, left unchecked,
can kind of turn into this nasty virus that can
take control of your life and cause you to do
hopefully out of character things. When kept in check, it

(01:44:36):
can be something that's really helpful for you to like
stand up for yourself, know your self worth, set and
communicate and enforce your boundaries and know how to say
no to unhealthy people and choices and situations. Then it's
really productive and every day, like the more enlightened you become,
the better you are, and every day kind of work shopping,

(01:44:58):
those kind of competing emotions on every day, there's some
version of that conversation you probably need to have you
with yourself. But ruminating is a sign of the ego,
I think, having more control than you want to acknowledge.
I think ruminating is a sign of a lack of acceptance,
especially when there's no specific goal of what you're ruminating over,

(01:45:19):
when there's not a like a oh, all right, I
need to this is my problem. I want to solve
this problem, and as a relevant problem, I'm want to ruminate. Now,
You're just like I feel this icky feeling I want
to understand this feeling that I'm having. I want to
just keep I want to figure it out. And you
don't even know the problem, right, or the problem is
a or the problem is this is some vague general thing, right.

Speaker 8 (01:45:42):
No.

Speaker 7 (01:45:42):
I think there's an element of being just having had
a lot of anxiety for my entire life, and almost
feeling some weird sense of comfort in that, even though,
like on the surface, I don't like my anxiety. It's
not productive, it's not pleasurable, but there's an element of
like comfort if I let it go, what will happen?

Speaker 8 (01:46:01):
You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (01:46:03):
Well, thanks for the call.

Speaker 2 (01:46:04):
Keep us updated on on on how you work through this,
and we love an update and hopefully this is helpful.

Speaker 7 (01:46:11):
Thanks so much, Nick.

Speaker 3 (01:46:12):
All right, take care, take care, all right, but

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E973 Ask Nick - My Therapist Is Bestie’s Toxic Ex

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