May 19, 2023 • 33 mins
In this episode, we’re talking about fake meat, an industry that has absolutely exploded, especially in the past decade, though recent inflation has had a significant impact on American consumption of it. We’ll talk about the history of fake meat, scientific breakthroughs that helped companies like Impossible and Beyond Meat make meat substitutes that taste pretty darn close to the real thing, and what experts predict will happen to the industry as a whole as food costs continue to rise.
Check out Joanne’s new podcast: “In This Story…with Joanne Greene”. In each episode, Joanne shares a flash nonfiction essay, showcasing tales and observations from her animated life. Find it from wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Joanne’s book, “By Accident: A Memoir of Letting Go” is available for pre-order from your favorite online book seller. Release date is June 20, 2023. Stay tuned to hear if Joanne will be speaking at a bookstore near you. If you’re interested in having her come to your local bookstore, contact her directly at joannergreene@gmail.com or get updates on her website at joanne-greene.com and make sure to sign up for her newsletter!
Follow us on social media @allthefwordspod
Write to us! allthefwordspod@gmail.com
Links https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-04-06/is-fake-meat-just-a-fad-video https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/2023/01/27/fake-meat-food-s-future-or-a-fad https://news.stanford.edu/2023/01/24/rethinking-meat-substitutes/ https://www.businessinsider.com/beyond-meat-vegan-plant-based-fake-meat-inflation-prices-restaurants-2023-2
Check out Joanne’s new podcast: “In This Story…with Joanne Greene”. In each episode, Joanne shares a flash nonfiction essay, showcasing tales and observations from her animated life. Find it from wherever you listen to your favorite podcasts.
Joanne’s book, “By Accident: A Memoir of Letting Go” is available for pre-order from your favorite online book seller. Release date is June 20, 2023. Stay tuned to hear if Joanne will be speaking at a bookstore near you. If you’re interested in having her come to your local bookstore, contact her directly at joannergreene@gmail.com or get updates on her website at joanne-greene.com and make sure to sign up for her newsletter!
Follow us on social media @allthefwordspod
Write to us! allthefwordspod@gmail.com
Links https://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2023-04-06/is-fake-meat-just-a-fad-video https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/2023/01/27/fake-meat-food-s-future-or-a-fad https://news.stanford.edu/2023/01/24/rethinking-meat-substitutes/ https://www.businessinsider.com/beyond-meat-vegan-plant-based-fake-meat-inflation-prices-restaurants-2023-2
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to All the Efforts, apodcast where two writer friends nearly thirty years
apart, explore everything we give anF about. I'm Gabby Muscoe and I'm
joe Anne green. On. Eachepisode of All the Efforts will focus on
a theme starting with the letter F, things like plopian tubes, France,
and feuds. We'll share stories fromour lives and our distinct generational perspectives,
(00:26):
and look to the experts for insightsand ideas. Today, we're talking about
fake meat. It's an industry that'sexploded in the past twenty years, particularly
the past decade, as Americans havebegun to consume less meat, and yet,
as with everything, it is notwithout its problems, and we are
going to talk about it all.I am so excited that we are doing
(00:49):
this topic because fake meat, inits various forms, has been a part
of my life from the time Iwas about seven when I first so I
don't know if you know this aboutme, but I was a vegetarian from
the time I was seven. Ihad a very intense experience at a petting
zoo. All the way until mylate twenties when I started getting serious about
(01:11):
food writing, I absolutely did notknow this gabby and I'm ordinary, I
think, so, you know,it was. It actually is a lot
to do with how I got intocooking, because I was doing a lot
of my own cooking as a vegetariangrowing up. But it's interesting because not
(01:33):
only was I a vegetarian, butI was an edgetarian in the nineties,
which was when veggie burgers or specificallythe garden Burger TM came on the market
and started to become It was likeniche popular, but it definitely started to
become popular. Do you remember those? Of course, let me just throw
(01:55):
in here, you were a vegetarianin the nineties. I was a vegetarian
in the seventies, and I ama vegetarian again now so, but I
did eat meat for many decades inthe interim. And let me just say,
when I was a vegetarian, therewere no garden brokers. What were
your reasons for becoming a vegetarian inthe seventies. I think it was a
(02:17):
combination of sense. It certainly adifferent set of reasons than my reasons now.
I did not know about global warmingat the time. I did not
know about methane, I did notknow about what the beef industry does to
the environment, and nor did Iknow about what is done to beef and
(02:37):
chickens. And maybe it wasn't evendone then, as you know, an
in as extreme a way as itis done now. But for me it
was I never really loved meat.I have to say. I was never
a big meat eater, and Iwas a big seafood eater, and I
(03:00):
when I became a vegetarian, Istill ate fish and seafood, though not
much. Also for me, Ithink my vegetarianism was part and parcel of
my anorexia, so it wasn't exactlya rational thought process, but I definitely
had an affinity with animals, andI think I was just limiting my food
intake period to things that grew inthe ground and had no calories. So,
(03:27):
yeah, what did you eat?I mean, given that, I
can understand that maybe you weren't superfocused on protein, But what were,
if any? What were the meatsubstitutes available back then? Eggs, cheese,
tofu, yes, yes, yes, yes. In the seventies I
(03:47):
did discover tofu and I ate alot of tofu. And for some reason
I thought eggplant had protein. Idon't think it does, but I remember
thinking. You know that Michael franhad this song about making eggplant ninety different
ways or something. I just thinkI'll have it row with mayonnaise. That
was the next lyric. But anyway, I made eggplant a million different ways,
(04:11):
and um huh, cheese. Idefinitely ate cheese. I don't think
I was, you know, reallydoing a good job with my nutrition at
the time, but now I do. Yeah, all right, So so
um, we'll get into our currentsort of relationship with fake meat in a
minute, but I do want toI want to walk you through kind of
(04:32):
the history of fake meat. Andyou know, I like when I when
we first start talking about doing theshow, I was thinking about fake meat
in terms of the current market witha fake meat, which is very meat
like UM products, things like theBeyond Burger, Impossible Burger, and their
(04:54):
various other products that they make.But they what we're about to talk about,
These are things that walked so thatthe products we're going to talk about
later could run. And also Ijust want to note that for in many
culture, in many cultures, alot of what we're about to talk about
(05:15):
satan, which is wheat luten bywheat luten protein UM tofu, etc.
It's not thought of as a fakemeat. It's just a food in its
own right. So absolutely, AndI was going to say that, like
this whole notion of fake meat tome, is only really appropriate when the
intention of the people making the productis to make it appear like taste,
(05:38):
like chew like meat. Yeah,then it's then it's fake meat. Otherwise
it's alternative protein. And to me, it becomes sort of two different markets
that you're selling to because one thingthat I found in my research is that
there's sort of two groups of peoplewho are buying you know, non meat
(06:00):
protein options. All Right, we'rejust gonna call it fake meat for today,
can everybody? Can everybody hang withthat? All right? It's our
F word, do it? Justdeal with it? Yeah, exactly.
So there are two groups of peoplebuying fake meat. There are vegetarians,
often lifelong or longtime vegetarians who wantto either participate in you know, like
(06:23):
maybe they used to eat meat andthey want something that tastes similar, or
you know, it's just it's funto have a cheeseburger that didn't come from
a cow. But then the othergroup is people who are for health reasons
or form for environmental reasons, aretrying to eat less meat, cut down
(06:43):
on their meat consumption, but wantsomething similar to the real thing. So
and we'll get into just how similarthese products are and aren't. But to
me, those are two different markets. And while I can understand it's a
someone who's maybe a new vegetarian orused to love burgers being really into a
(07:09):
veggie burger that tastes like a likea real burger, I feel a little
sad for the veggie burgers of yourLike I love a beat burger. Like
the plant was this place in SanFrancisco. It's still there, and apparently
we're gonna get I think there's atleast one in Marin and they I don't
(07:31):
know if they still do, butthey used to make a beat veggie burger
that birthday lunch. Let's do it. Let's do it. I want to
do it. It's so good andthere's nothing meaty about it. I mean,
you know, I think the ideais that like it's beat, so
it looks kind of like, Idon't know, bloody meat, but it
is delicious. It tastes like beatsand mushrooms and maybe oats and onions and
(07:55):
garlic, and it's so good andI don't need it to taste like anything
else. I don't even think ithas much in the way of protein.
But that's fine, that's not whyI'm eating it. And I feel the
same way about tofu. Whenever peopletalk about making tofu super meaty, I
get it, But I also Ialso appreciate tofu that just tastes like tofu.
(08:15):
Or wait, how do you maketofu meaty? You know, you
add smoke flavoring. There's all kindsof things. There's all kinds of cool
tricks, and I have made asa long time food writer, I've made
every kind of tofu. And Itotally understand people wanting, you know,
a metior tasting, non meat option, but I do miss the days when
(08:41):
well, not that they're over necessarily, but I do. Sometimes when I
see marketing for bake meat, I'mlike, oh, but but just a
real vegie burger would be fine.I have a lot of a special place
in my heart for those things.So on that note, let me walk
you through. I didn't realize this. The history of meat as a as
(09:03):
a fake meat as a meat alternativeis very, very old. So um,
we start with with tofu, whichum was invented in China in the
Han the Han dynasty in two ohsix BC, sometimes between two o six
(09:24):
and two twenty two oh six BCto two twenty CE, that's when the
Han dynasty was around. There aredrawings of tofu production that have been discovered
in a Han dynasty tomb, andit was and we know that it was
used as a meat alternative because there'sactual documentation describing how tofu was popularly known
as small mutton, as that's whatI'm calling it that from now on,
(09:46):
I love small mutton, making smallmutton tonight for dinner. I thought that
was really really interesting. Um.And then in the third century ceum Athenaeus
describes operation of mock Anchovy and here, let me read this. It's it's
it's kind of it's a poem.So he took a female turnip, shred
(10:07):
it fine into the figure of thedelicate fish. Then did he pour on
oil and savory salt with careful handin due proportion. On that, he
strewed twelve grains of poppy seed foodwhich the skythions love, then boiled it
all. And when the turnip touchedthe royal lips thus spake the king to
the admiring guests. A cook isquite as useful as a poet, and
(10:31):
quite as wise, and these anchoviesshow it. I don't know that was
sort of sexual. I think.I also don't know. I don't know
when the turnip touched the royal lips. Also, I don't know about turnip
as an anchovy substitute. But youknow so then okay, So then we
(10:54):
move on to weak luten, whichis still used today. Have you had
HM as a vegetarian, you've hadsaytan, right, yeah, yeah,
it didn't do anything for me.It's often when you buy fake chicken,
that's what they or or if um, if you're lucky enough to find a
restaurant. Often Chinese restaurants will haveum a weak luten or satan as a
(11:16):
as a chicken or pork substitute option. So wait, here's my question.
Is it protein? Yeah? Yeah, I mean gluten is protein. So
what you do is um to makesaychan you can you can make it easier
by buying vital weak luten, oryou can actually use flour and we can
(11:39):
link to a recipe. It's Iwouldn't say it's easy, but it's um
Once you do it a few times, it's you get the hang of it.
It's basically, you make a dough, you boil the hell out of
the dough, and um, itseparates. You separate the the the gluten
(12:01):
in the pro the wheat protein intoits own thing, and then you can
shred it up like chicken. Soit's um and it doesn't it doesn't itself
tastes like chicken, but textually it'svery similar. And so then you season
it however you want. And Imean it's a great cheap protein option.
You can also buy it. Yeahthere you now you're talking buy it premade.
(12:26):
I like that part. You canbuy it premade, and you can
buy it if you buy it cremade. I would go for the marinated kind
absolutely, if you're doing it,do it. Yeah, and uh,
it stays One thing it's that's niceabout it is it stays juicy, so
you really can get the juicy effectthat you get from real chicken. Can
we throw jack fruit into the mixhere for just a moment, because jack
(12:50):
fruit is its own thing. Obviouslyit's a fruit. I'm assuming it's a
fruit, but it is now beingpitched and sold as a meat substitute because
of its texture. Yes, it'sanytime you are doing like a pulled sort
of thing, like pulled pork orpulled chicken. Jack fruit has as textually
(13:11):
similar, so it works. Well, what do you do you like it?
It's okay? I don't. Imean, it's not like I'm thinking,
let's have jackfruit tonight. No,but I have you know, I've
eaten it. It's okay. Ifind it a little bit spongy. Yeah,
is that what I don't like?I don't know. There's something about
it that isn't quite isn't quite right, but who knows? Yeah? So,
(13:37):
um so then we start getting intomore intentionally processed meat. So okay.
So John Harvey Kellogg of a Kelloggfame, and also he was really
he was in the sanitarium business.He made cereal wasn't enough for him.
(14:00):
Sanitarium as in like where you goto have tuberculosis or something. No,
no, no, no he Haveyou ever seen the movie The Road to
Wellness? It's a book, isn'tit. No? I don't think I
have. It came out in thenineties. I remember seeing it in like
six or seventh grade, and it'sabout the Kellogg brothers, and they had
(14:20):
a sanitarium together that was doing allkinds of things. But there was this
thought that the colon was like theroot of all disease, and if you
could flush out the colon, thenyou could cure a lot of ailments.
And I believe that is why heinvented corn flakes and corn flakes, which
now, interestingly, like there's notthat much biber in cornflakes, but or
(14:43):
at least the way that they aretoday. Maybe maybe the original corn flakes
were iron biber, but that waswell, now we have branded right,
right. Sure. But he alsoin addition to that, he invents a
meat substitute called protoast, which wasmade from peanuts and wheat gluten, and
(15:05):
it became Kellogg's most popular product innineteen thirty. So, get out of
time. We've never even heard ofthis. Who's heard of this? Raise
your hand? I see no hands, certainly not mine. I had no
idea. Okay. So then meatsubstitutes during World War One and World War
Two actually come up again because offood shortages, so people are using various
(15:33):
plant based proteins. And then ineighteen ninety eight, a food writer named
Henrietta Latham Dwight, authors of VegetarianCookbook in eighteen ninety eight, and it
includes meat substitutes like mock chicken madefrom breadcrumbs, eggs, lemon juice,
and walnut. And listen to this, Joan, Just listen to this.
(15:54):
A mock clam soup made from marrowfat, beans and cream. Just see
that on a menu. You can'tsee my face, but you can imagine
the face that I'm making. Butthat but that chicken thing that wait,
walnuts, eggs and sounded pretty darnbread crumbs, eggs, lemon juice and
(16:15):
walnuts. Yeah. Yeah, I'mgonna try that one. Um no,
I'm not no, my kidding,probably not? Um okay, So that
we jumped forward in twenty sixteen,I remember this, and I'm sure you
do, too. Impossible Burger.Impossible Foods launches the Impossible Burger, which
(16:37):
is a beef substitute that claims tooffer appearance, taste, and cooking property
similar to meat. And I remembermy first impossible burger. I assume have
you had an impossible burger before?I love an impossible burger and I think
I'm just going to throw this inright now that there is no comparison between
a beyond burger and an impossible andalso at the beginning they cost like more
(17:03):
than Wago beef. If you wouldorder them in a restaurant, it was
ridiculous. You were getting right.And now you can get them at Costco.
You can get them at Trader Joe's. It's you know, my life
is better. But then you needthe bread, and it's a whole long
conversation. Okay, go on,So okay. So I remember my first
impossible burger and I remember thinking,and it was a big deal, I
(17:26):
should say for my husband who keepskosher, because he has not had a
cheeseburger that tastes anything like a cheeseburgerin twenty five years or something. So
I remember we went out to arestaurant on Valencia Street. I can't remember
what it was called. It's thisNew Mexican place, like food from New
(17:48):
Mexico. But they had an impossibleburger on the menu and it was it
was really tasty. I remember thinking, as you know, someone who does
occasionally eat real burgers, it itwasn't gonna fool me, but it was.
That was sort of my entry intothat kind of food. And what
(18:08):
the next thing that I discovered wasBeyond sausages, which I do think are
a good product, and I haven'tI know, impossible to make sausages,
but I don't think I've had them. I've never tasted them either. The
Beyond sausages are far more widely available, and I agree with you. I
(18:29):
think they're a great substitute, particularlythe Italian spicy ones, which are not
all that Italian or spicy, butthey're better than the than the plane ones.
I would say, yes, definitely. My father is a committed meat
eater and not a fan of meatsubstitutes, and a few years ago my
(18:52):
mom and I made spicy Italian sausagesauce and made it with those and didn't
tell him, and he was nonethe wiser. And now every time I
make pasta face, he demands toknow what kind of meat I used in
it. But I was I rememberthinking, all right, that's the real
(19:12):
test if that guy can't tell.Well, this is the thing is that
we have this field called food science, and food science has changed the game
on all of these things. Andwe will talk about why that is in
just a moment. Food science hasreally changed the game on so many things.
(19:41):
And you know, we wonder whythis industry has sprung up and is
doing so well. And I thinkthat it's a pretty obvious answer. There's
a market for it, right.Food science is what contributes to the different
tastes. I mean, when anew cereal comes out, when a new
fragrance comes out, thing like that, it's you know, you're dealing with
(20:03):
smells. Taste is part smell andtexture and all of these things. And
when people want to reduce, forinstance, fat in their diets because they've
been convinced that fat's the enemy onany given year, right on another year
it might be sugar that's the enemy, the scientists go to work to try
(20:25):
to create the same endorphin rush,if you will, that people have been
getting from the fat, the sugar, the meat, the whatever, and
create it from some other material,which of course may or may not be
equally harmful or even more harmful.I wonder about it when I look at
(20:45):
my beyond products or my impossible productsand see all these chemicals, I wonder,
at what point are we going tofind out that, you know,
we would have been better off withme. So that is that is a
perfect segue to the next chapter ofthis of the fake meat world. So
(21:08):
it's more complicated than I thought itwas when before I started researching this episode.
Let me first tell you about why, you know, on the subject
of food science. According to ImpossibleBurger, how they make it taste meaty,
because I was really curious about thatbecause it really is different from even
you know, remember when Boca Burgersfirst came out and they were meatier than
(21:33):
a garden burger, but they stillcertainly didn't taste like actual meat. According
to the Impossible website, they say, in our research, we discovered that
the molecule hem is responsible for ameat savory flavor, juicy texture, and
unique smell. Hem is found ina protein called hemoglobin that is found in
(21:53):
every living plant and animal. Anyonewho's had blood work done has seen that
word before, and it is somethingthat we've been eating since the dawn of
humanity. The ingredient not only makesImpossible Burgers tastes like meat, but helps
them stay juicy, moist, andslightly red at the center. Depend Because
our mission is to create a foodsystem that doesn't rely on animal agriculture,
(22:15):
we had to find a source ofheame from plants that match the properties of
heam from animals. We surveyed hemproteins from many plants and found the right
one in soybeans, specifically soybean roots. In order to feed the planet in
the most sustainable way, blah blahblah, we generate heam by fermentation of
genetically engineered yeast and the result isa magic ingredient that gives impossible burger the
(22:37):
satisfying crave or the aroma and tasteof beef. So it sounds very simple,
but if you've ever looked at thelist of ingredients on Impossible burgers or
Beyond sausages, it's it's pretty long. And that's usually the case on most
processed meats upstitutes. So what isinteresting about what's going on right now is
(23:06):
anyone who's been in a grocery storerecently knows that things have never been more
expensive. So because it is notso simple, and because there is a
demand for meat substitutes, they've gottenextremely expensive. And you know they're definitely
(23:26):
priced and restaurants, especially back whenthey first came out, but it's you
know, a package of Beyond sausagesof four Beyond sausages, it's like ten
dollars, So, right, nowwe're actually seeing a decline in purchases of
fake meat, and it was likecatapulting up, and then just recently,
(23:47):
since inflation really got bad, ithas started going down because and I thought
this was really interesting. Often itis as expensive as, if not more
expensive, ben actual meat. Thatdoesn't surprise me. I'm always not curious
(24:10):
about the fact that, you know, vegetarian options don't cost less, for
instance, than the steak or theshrimp or the you know, and part
of it is labor. I thinkit often vegetarian cooking takes longer, has
more steps, has more ingredients,so that what you save perhaps on the
(24:32):
cost of the ingredient, you thenspend in the labor to prepare the meal.
What you're talking about is different.And I think this is all going
to even out right if in factsales go down, then they're going to
need to increase demand, and pricesof these products is going to have to
(24:52):
come down at least somewhat to makeit competitive, if not cheaper than the
price of meat. Um. Andagain, there just needs to be a
whole lot more education and a wholelot more marketing to the fact that eating
less meat is going to be ultimatelybetter for the planet. Tell me about
your journey to vegetarianism at this pointin your life. At this point in
(25:18):
my life, COVID had a lotto do with it. So my husband
and I stopped eating meat and infact chicken. Um once when you when
you say meat, you mean redmeat. Um. Yeah, I eat
fish, Okay, I don't eatpork. I don't eat so what.
(25:38):
Um, I don't eat white meat, red meat. What other guys are?
I definitely eat fish, and Ieat cheese and eggs. So I'm
nowhere near a vegan and and look, let me be frank, I'm kind
of a flexitarian if I'm somewhere,and okay, I'm going to come clean
(25:59):
and soup bowl party Moroccan nachos madewith ground lamb. Oh no, they
were chicks still they It was justso good anyway, I had it.
Nothing happened. I didn't, youknow, fall over, I didn't get
(26:19):
sick. It was it was.It was a good day. Um.
So for me, it was acombination of feeling like this virus that went
from animals to people or so thatwas a theory. At one point early
on in the pandemic, felt likesort of like one more thing or the
straw. I hate this expression,the straw that broke the camel's back.
(26:40):
But you know what I'm saying,impossible camels back something like that. Yeah,
I mean, I don't want tobreak anybody's back, but you know,
much less a camel. Lovely animalsuntil they spit at you. But
I digress. Um. It wasa combination of I hadn't been liking chicken.
We ate a lot of chicken.I never ate a lot of red
meat. I was never a bigred meat eater. Having said that,
(27:03):
you know, my grandfather was abutcher, and we ate meat every single
night in my childhood. Growing up, it was like lamb chops one night,
London broil the next night. Abrief A brief commercial here for my
other podcast in this story, inwhich I have an entire episode about my
family's history with meat. But forme, it was a matter of my
(27:27):
health, the planet's health. JustI had a lot of time on my
hands, so I could explore vegetarianrecipes. Great, I love it.
I I never really got into meat. I don't ever find myself craving me.
(27:48):
I as a little kid, hadalways had a hard time chewing it.
I would chew and chew and chewand chew. And it's going to
be interesting to see what happens withmy kids because because Evan Keith kosher and
and it's a whole thing to dragout the meat dishes. Um, we
just don't do it very often.I would say I probably make meat,
(28:10):
usually chicken, like once a week. I always make briskit on Honkka and
Passover and you know, my matsof ball soup for Passover. But um,
in general, we don't eat alot of it. Anna is not
into it at all. Sasha likesit when we when we have it sometimes.
Um. But I only started eatingmeat when I started getting serious about
(28:36):
about writing about food, because Ididn't really want to just be a vegetarian
food writer. Um. And Ialways have tried to think of it as
not always the star of the show, like kind of the you know,
It's like it's just as important asthe vegetables and the grains and whatever else
(28:56):
you have on your plate. Um. What I think is interesting in the
conversation about protein is that the bestoption, in my opinion, that one
of the cheapest and most nutritious,both in terms of fiber and protein,
and the environment options for protein isbeans, and I think a lot of
(29:22):
beans they're they're having a moment theystart you're starting to see like bean dishes.
But I am really hoping that beansbecome I am hoping that we can
mainstream beans a little bit more andhave people understand that an entree that is
based on legumes is not only sonutritious, and a lot of countries around
(29:47):
the world know this already, especiallywhen you have beans and race together.
It's a complete protein um but it'sit's so so cheap, especially if you
buy dried beans, just incredibly cheap. You're a person, I love beans,
and a word for beans on behalfof beans. Let me just say
a lot of people don't eat beansbecause of the gas that they produce,
(30:11):
and they can make people feel reallyuncomfortable. And it has been my experience
with people who were reluctant to eatbeans that if you keep eating them,
your body starts to actually make theenzyme that breaks them down, so that
over time, and I'm not talkingabout years, you know, we're talking
(30:32):
about really weeks or months at thevery most, your body starts making those
enzymes and you are very easily ableto digest beans. It's quite miraculous.
I mean, we are meant toThere's certain things that as humans, I
think we are meant to do andbe, And that's part of my whole
(30:52):
approach with vegetarianism. It's like,there is enough that grows from the ground
on this planet that can sustain usbeautifully. Now that would be an argument
for veganism, which I'm not goingthat far. But we're meant to walk,
right, We're not meant to besitting in cars. We're meant to
(31:14):
be moving. We're meant to beeating what grows in the ground. And
beans, I totally believe are amainstay of that. Yeay, beans,
there's to beans. Well, USh, what would we call our bean episode?
Oh my goodness, fava? Thereyou go, there you go?
(31:37):
All right, all right, I'llget working on that one. I don't
know that there's that much more tosay. But so in the end,
would you say that we should beconcerned about the chemicals in the fake meat
that we're eating these days? Imean, whenever people start talking about chemicals,
my eye sort of glaze over becauseeverything else chemicals. Everything has chemicals.
(32:00):
The world is made of chemicals,and I don't think we should be
concerned, and it's you know,whether or not to eat meat is such
a personal decision, and so Icertainly wouldn't let the chemicals keep you away
from it. What I would sayis I like to look at less processed
(32:22):
versions of whatever I'm interested in wheneverpossible for environmental reasons, and I guess
for health reasons and often for costreasons. So, like we said,
beans are great, and if youcan afford meat options, if you want
to eat meat and you can affordmeat that is more sustainably raised, then
(32:45):
then go for that. However,if you're feeding a crowd and that crowd
includes some vegetarians, you can't gowrong with impossible. I would do the
impossible grounds that comes not the patties, but the ones that come in in
a square package like Granby or aswe said before, the spicy Italian Beyond
(33:08):
Burgers, or just get a geta garden burger. Garden Burgerer did so
I'm hungry. Thank you so muchfor listening to all the efforts today.
She's Gabby Moscow, It's and I'mJoe Anne Green and we love hearing from
(33:29):
you. So please get in touchand follow us on social media. You
can email us at All the Effortpod at gmail dot com or follow us
at All the Efforts Pod on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube.
Have a great week. Bye byebye
Welcome to All the Efforts, apodcast where two writer friends nearly thirty years
apart, explore everything we give anF about. I'm Gabby Muscoe and I'm
joe Anne green. On. Eachepisode of All the Efforts will focus on
a theme starting with the letter F, things like plopian tubes, France,
and feuds. We'll share stories fromour lives and our distinct generational perspectives,
(00:26):
and look to the experts for insightsand ideas. Today, we're talking about
fake meat. It's an industry that'sexploded in the past twenty years, particularly
the past decade, as Americans havebegun to consume less meat, and yet,
as with everything, it is notwithout its problems, and we are
going to talk about it all.I am so excited that we are doing
(00:49):
this topic because fake meat, inits various forms, has been a part
of my life from the time Iwas about seven when I first so I
don't know if you know this aboutme, but I was a vegetarian from
the time I was seven. Ihad a very intense experience at a petting
zoo. All the way until mylate twenties when I started getting serious about
(01:11):
food writing, I absolutely did notknow this gabby and I'm ordinary, I
think, so, you know,it was. It actually is a lot
to do with how I got intocooking, because I was doing a lot
of my own cooking as a vegetariangrowing up. But it's interesting because not
(01:33):
only was I a vegetarian, butI was an edgetarian in the nineties,
which was when veggie burgers or specificallythe garden Burger TM came on the market
and started to become It was likeniche popular, but it definitely started to
become popular. Do you remember those? Of course, let me just throw
(01:55):
in here, you were a vegetarianin the nineties. I was a vegetarian
in the seventies, and I ama vegetarian again now so, but I
did eat meat for many decades inthe interim. And let me just say,
when I was a vegetarian, therewere no garden brokers. What were
your reasons for becoming a vegetarian inthe seventies. I think it was a
(02:17):
combination of sense. It certainly adifferent set of reasons than my reasons now.
I did not know about global warmingat the time. I did not
know about methane, I did notknow about what the beef industry does to
the environment, and nor did Iknow about what is done to beef and
(02:37):
chickens. And maybe it wasn't evendone then, as you know, an
in as extreme a way as itis done now. But for me it
was I never really loved meat.I have to say. I was never
a big meat eater, and Iwas a big seafood eater, and I
(03:00):
when I became a vegetarian, Istill ate fish and seafood, though not
much. Also for me, Ithink my vegetarianism was part and parcel of
my anorexia, so it wasn't exactlya rational thought process, but I definitely
had an affinity with animals, andI think I was just limiting my food
intake period to things that grew inthe ground and had no calories. So,
(03:27):
yeah, what did you eat?I mean, given that, I
can understand that maybe you weren't superfocused on protein, But what were,
if any? What were the meatsubstitutes available back then? Eggs, cheese,
tofu, yes, yes, yes, yes. In the seventies I
(03:47):
did discover tofu and I ate alot of tofu. And for some reason
I thought eggplant had protein. Idon't think it does, but I remember
thinking. You know that Michael franhad this song about making eggplant ninety different
ways or something. I just thinkI'll have it row with mayonnaise. That
was the next lyric. But anyway, I made eggplant a million different ways,
(04:11):
and um huh, cheese. Idefinitely ate cheese. I don't think
I was, you know, reallydoing a good job with my nutrition at
the time, but now I do. Yeah, all right, So so
um, we'll get into our currentsort of relationship with fake meat in a
minute, but I do want toI want to walk you through kind of
(04:32):
the history of fake meat. Andyou know, I like when I when
we first start talking about doing theshow, I was thinking about fake meat
in terms of the current market witha fake meat, which is very meat
like UM products, things like theBeyond Burger, Impossible Burger, and their
(04:54):
various other products that they make.But they what we're about to talk about,
These are things that walked so thatthe products we're going to talk about
later could run. And also Ijust want to note that for in many
culture, in many cultures, alot of what we're about to talk about
(05:15):
satan, which is wheat luten bywheat luten protein UM tofu, etc.
It's not thought of as a fakemeat. It's just a food in its
own right. So absolutely, AndI was going to say that, like
this whole notion of fake meat tome, is only really appropriate when the
intention of the people making the productis to make it appear like taste,
(05:38):
like chew like meat. Yeah,then it's then it's fake meat. Otherwise
it's alternative protein. And to me, it becomes sort of two different markets
that you're selling to because one thingthat I found in my research is that
there's sort of two groups of peoplewho are buying you know, non meat
(06:00):
protein options. All Right, we'rejust gonna call it fake meat for today,
can everybody? Can everybody hang withthat? All right? It's our
F word, do it? Justdeal with it? Yeah, exactly.
So there are two groups of peoplebuying fake meat. There are vegetarians,
often lifelong or longtime vegetarians who wantto either participate in you know, like
(06:23):
maybe they used to eat meat andthey want something that tastes similar, or
you know, it's just it's funto have a cheeseburger that didn't come from
a cow. But then the othergroup is people who are for health reasons
or form for environmental reasons, aretrying to eat less meat, cut down
(06:43):
on their meat consumption, but wantsomething similar to the real thing. So
and we'll get into just how similarthese products are and aren't. But to
me, those are two different markets. And while I can understand it's a
someone who's maybe a new vegetarian orused to love burgers being really into a
(07:09):
veggie burger that tastes like a likea real burger, I feel a little
sad for the veggie burgers of yourLike I love a beat burger. Like
the plant was this place in SanFrancisco. It's still there, and apparently
we're gonna get I think there's atleast one in Marin and they I don't
(07:31):
know if they still do, butthey used to make a beat veggie burger
that birthday lunch. Let's do it. Let's do it. I want to
do it. It's so good andthere's nothing meaty about it. I mean,
you know, I think the ideais that like it's beat, so
it looks kind of like, Idon't know, bloody meat, but it
is delicious. It tastes like beatsand mushrooms and maybe oats and onions and
(07:55):
garlic, and it's so good andI don't need it to taste like anything
else. I don't even think ithas much in the way of protein.
But that's fine, that's not whyI'm eating it. And I feel the
same way about tofu. Whenever peopletalk about making tofu super meaty, I
get it, But I also Ialso appreciate tofu that just tastes like tofu.
(08:15):
Or wait, how do you maketofu meaty? You know, you
add smoke flavoring. There's all kindsof things. There's all kinds of cool
tricks, and I have made asa long time food writer, I've made
every kind of tofu. And Itotally understand people wanting, you know,
a metior tasting, non meat option, but I do miss the days when
(08:41):
well, not that they're over necessarily, but I do. Sometimes when I
see marketing for bake meat, I'mlike, oh, but but just a
real vegie burger would be fine.I have a lot of a special place
in my heart for those things.So on that note, let me walk
you through. I didn't realize this. The history of meat as a as
(09:03):
a fake meat as a meat alternativeis very, very old. So um,
we start with with tofu, whichum was invented in China in the
Han the Han dynasty in two ohsix BC, sometimes between two o six
(09:24):
and two twenty two oh six BCto two twenty CE, that's when the
Han dynasty was around. There aredrawings of tofu production that have been discovered
in a Han dynasty tomb, andit was and we know that it was
used as a meat alternative because there'sactual documentation describing how tofu was popularly known
as small mutton, as that's whatI'm calling it that from now on,
(09:46):
I love small mutton, making smallmutton tonight for dinner. I thought that
was really really interesting. Um.And then in the third century ceum Athenaeus
describes operation of mock Anchovy and here, let me read this. It's it's
it's kind of it's a poem.So he took a female turnip, shred
(10:07):
it fine into the figure of thedelicate fish. Then did he pour on
oil and savory salt with careful handin due proportion. On that, he
strewed twelve grains of poppy seed foodwhich the skythions love, then boiled it
all. And when the turnip touchedthe royal lips thus spake the king to
the admiring guests. A cook isquite as useful as a poet, and
(10:31):
quite as wise, and these anchoviesshow it. I don't know that was
sort of sexual. I think.I also don't know. I don't know
when the turnip touched the royal lips. Also, I don't know about turnip
as an anchovy substitute. But youknow so then okay, So then we
(10:54):
move on to weak luten, whichis still used today. Have you had
HM as a vegetarian, you've hadsaytan, right, yeah, yeah,
it didn't do anything for me.It's often when you buy fake chicken,
that's what they or or if um, if you're lucky enough to find a
restaurant. Often Chinese restaurants will haveum a weak luten or satan as a
(11:16):
as a chicken or pork substitute option. So wait, here's my question.
Is it protein? Yeah? Yeah, I mean gluten is protein. So
what you do is um to makesaychan you can you can make it easier
by buying vital weak luten, oryou can actually use flour and we can
(11:39):
link to a recipe. It's Iwouldn't say it's easy, but it's um
Once you do it a few times, it's you get the hang of it.
It's basically, you make a dough, you boil the hell out of
the dough, and um, itseparates. You separate the the the gluten
(12:01):
in the pro the wheat protein intoits own thing, and then you can
shred it up like chicken. Soit's um and it doesn't it doesn't itself
tastes like chicken, but textually it'svery similar. And so then you season
it however you want. And Imean it's a great cheap protein option.
You can also buy it. Yeahthere you now you're talking buy it premade.
(12:26):
I like that part. You canbuy it premade, and you can
buy it if you buy it cremade. I would go for the marinated kind
absolutely, if you're doing it,do it. Yeah, and uh,
it stays One thing it's that's niceabout it is it stays juicy, so
you really can get the juicy effectthat you get from real chicken. Can
we throw jack fruit into the mixhere for just a moment, because jack
(12:50):
fruit is its own thing. Obviouslyit's a fruit. I'm assuming it's a
fruit, but it is now beingpitched and sold as a meat substitute because
of its texture. Yes, it'sanytime you are doing like a pulled sort
of thing, like pulled pork orpulled chicken. Jack fruit has as textually
(13:11):
similar, so it works. Well, what do you do you like it?
It's okay? I don't. Imean, it's not like I'm thinking,
let's have jackfruit tonight. No,but I have you know, I've
eaten it. It's okay. Ifind it a little bit spongy. Yeah,
is that what I don't like?I don't know. There's something about
it that isn't quite isn't quite right, but who knows? Yeah? So,
(13:37):
um so then we start getting intomore intentionally processed meat. So okay.
So John Harvey Kellogg of a Kelloggfame, and also he was really
he was in the sanitarium business.He made cereal wasn't enough for him.
(14:00):
Sanitarium as in like where you goto have tuberculosis or something. No,
no, no, no he Haveyou ever seen the movie The Road to
Wellness? It's a book, isn'tit. No? I don't think I
have. It came out in thenineties. I remember seeing it in like
six or seventh grade, and it'sabout the Kellogg brothers, and they had
(14:20):
a sanitarium together that was doing allkinds of things. But there was this
thought that the colon was like theroot of all disease, and if you
could flush out the colon, thenyou could cure a lot of ailments.
And I believe that is why heinvented corn flakes and corn flakes, which
now, interestingly, like there's notthat much biber in cornflakes, but or
(14:43):
at least the way that they aretoday. Maybe maybe the original corn flakes
were iron biber, but that waswell, now we have branded right,
right. Sure. But he alsoin addition to that, he invents a
meat substitute called protoast, which wasmade from peanuts and wheat gluten, and
(15:05):
it became Kellogg's most popular product innineteen thirty. So, get out of
time. We've never even heard ofthis. Who's heard of this? Raise
your hand? I see no hands, certainly not mine. I had no
idea. Okay. So then meatsubstitutes during World War One and World War
Two actually come up again because offood shortages, so people are using various
(15:33):
plant based proteins. And then ineighteen ninety eight, a food writer named
Henrietta Latham Dwight, authors of VegetarianCookbook in eighteen ninety eight, and it
includes meat substitutes like mock chicken madefrom breadcrumbs, eggs, lemon juice,
and walnut. And listen to this, Joan, Just listen to this.
(15:54):
A mock clam soup made from marrowfat, beans and cream. Just see
that on a menu. You can'tsee my face, but you can imagine
the face that I'm making. Butthat but that chicken thing that wait,
walnuts, eggs and sounded pretty darnbread crumbs, eggs, lemon juice and
(16:15):
walnuts. Yeah. Yeah, I'mgonna try that one. Um no,
I'm not no, my kidding,probably not? Um okay, So that
we jumped forward in twenty sixteen,I remember this, and I'm sure you
do, too. Impossible Burger.Impossible Foods launches the Impossible Burger, which
(16:37):
is a beef substitute that claims tooffer appearance, taste, and cooking property
similar to meat. And I remembermy first impossible burger. I assume have
you had an impossible burger before?I love an impossible burger and I think
I'm just going to throw this inright now that there is no comparison between
a beyond burger and an impossible andalso at the beginning they cost like more
(17:03):
than Wago beef. If you wouldorder them in a restaurant, it was
ridiculous. You were getting right.And now you can get them at Costco.
You can get them at Trader Joe's. It's you know, my life
is better. But then you needthe bread, and it's a whole long
conversation. Okay, go on,So okay. So I remember my first
impossible burger and I remember thinking,and it was a big deal, I
(17:26):
should say for my husband who keepskosher, because he has not had a
cheeseburger that tastes anything like a cheeseburgerin twenty five years or something. So
I remember we went out to arestaurant on Valencia Street. I can't remember
what it was called. It's thisNew Mexican place, like food from New
(17:48):
Mexico. But they had an impossibleburger on the menu and it was it
was really tasty. I remember thinking, as you know, someone who does
occasionally eat real burgers, it itwasn't gonna fool me, but it was.
That was sort of my entry intothat kind of food. And what
(18:08):
the next thing that I discovered wasBeyond sausages, which I do think are
a good product, and I haven'tI know, impossible to make sausages,
but I don't think I've had them. I've never tasted them either. The
Beyond sausages are far more widely available, and I agree with you. I
(18:29):
think they're a great substitute, particularlythe Italian spicy ones, which are not
all that Italian or spicy, butthey're better than the than the plane ones.
I would say, yes, definitely. My father is a committed meat
eater and not a fan of meatsubstitutes, and a few years ago my
(18:52):
mom and I made spicy Italian sausagesauce and made it with those and didn't
tell him, and he was nonethe wiser. And now every time I
make pasta face, he demands toknow what kind of meat I used in
it. But I was I rememberthinking, all right, that's the real
(19:12):
test if that guy can't tell.Well, this is the thing is that
we have this field called food science, and food science has changed the game
on all of these things. Andwe will talk about why that is in
just a moment. Food science hasreally changed the game on so many things.
(19:41):
And you know, we wonder whythis industry has sprung up and is
doing so well. And I thinkthat it's a pretty obvious answer. There's
a market for it, right.Food science is what contributes to the different
tastes. I mean, when anew cereal comes out, when a new
fragrance comes out, thing like that, it's you know, you're dealing with
(20:03):
smells. Taste is part smell andtexture and all of these things. And
when people want to reduce, forinstance, fat in their diets because they've
been convinced that fat's the enemy onany given year, right on another year
it might be sugar that's the enemy, the scientists go to work to try
(20:25):
to create the same endorphin rush,if you will, that people have been
getting from the fat, the sugar, the meat, the whatever, and
create it from some other material,which of course may or may not be
equally harmful or even more harmful.I wonder about it when I look at
(20:45):
my beyond products or my impossible productsand see all these chemicals, I wonder,
at what point are we going tofind out that, you know,
we would have been better off withme. So that is that is a
perfect segue to the next chapter ofthis of the fake meat world. So
(21:08):
it's more complicated than I thought itwas when before I started researching this episode.
Let me first tell you about why, you know, on the subject
of food science. According to ImpossibleBurger, how they make it taste meaty,
because I was really curious about thatbecause it really is different from even
you know, remember when Boca Burgersfirst came out and they were meatier than
(21:33):
a garden burger, but they stillcertainly didn't taste like actual meat. According
to the Impossible website, they say, in our research, we discovered that
the molecule hem is responsible for ameat savory flavor, juicy texture, and
unique smell. Hem is found ina protein called hemoglobin that is found in
(21:53):
every living plant and animal. Anyonewho's had blood work done has seen that
word before, and it is somethingthat we've been eating since the dawn of
humanity. The ingredient not only makesImpossible Burgers tastes like meat, but helps
them stay juicy, moist, andslightly red at the center. Depend Because
our mission is to create a foodsystem that doesn't rely on animal agriculture,
(22:15):
we had to find a source ofheame from plants that match the properties of
heam from animals. We surveyed hemproteins from many plants and found the right
one in soybeans, specifically soybean roots. In order to feed the planet in
the most sustainable way, blah blahblah, we generate heam by fermentation of
genetically engineered yeast and the result isa magic ingredient that gives impossible burger the
(22:37):
satisfying crave or the aroma and tasteof beef. So it sounds very simple,
but if you've ever looked at thelist of ingredients on Impossible burgers or
Beyond sausages, it's it's pretty long. And that's usually the case on most
processed meats upstitutes. So what isinteresting about what's going on right now is
(23:06):
anyone who's been in a grocery storerecently knows that things have never been more
expensive. So because it is notso simple, and because there is a
demand for meat substitutes, they've gottenextremely expensive. And you know they're definitely
(23:26):
priced and restaurants, especially back whenthey first came out, but it's you
know, a package of Beyond sausagesof four Beyond sausages, it's like ten
dollars, So, right, nowwe're actually seeing a decline in purchases of
fake meat, and it was likecatapulting up, and then just recently,
(23:47):
since inflation really got bad, ithas started going down because and I thought
this was really interesting. Often itis as expensive as, if not more
expensive, ben actual meat. Thatdoesn't surprise me. I'm always not curious
(24:10):
about the fact that, you know, vegetarian options don't cost less, for
instance, than the steak or theshrimp or the you know, and part
of it is labor. I thinkit often vegetarian cooking takes longer, has
more steps, has more ingredients,so that what you save perhaps on the
(24:32):
cost of the ingredient, you thenspend in the labor to prepare the meal.
What you're talking about is different.And I think this is all going
to even out right if in factsales go down, then they're going to
need to increase demand, and pricesof these products is going to have to
(24:52):
come down at least somewhat to makeit competitive, if not cheaper than the
price of meat. Um. Andagain, there just needs to be a
whole lot more education and a wholelot more marketing to the fact that eating
less meat is going to be ultimatelybetter for the planet. Tell me about
your journey to vegetarianism at this pointin your life. At this point in
(25:18):
my life, COVID had a lotto do with it. So my husband
and I stopped eating meat and infact chicken. Um once when you when
you say meat, you mean redmeat. Um. Yeah, I eat
fish, Okay, I don't eatpork. I don't eat so what.
(25:38):
Um, I don't eat white meat, red meat. What other guys are?
I definitely eat fish, and Ieat cheese and eggs. So I'm
nowhere near a vegan and and look, let me be frank, I'm kind
of a flexitarian if I'm somewhere,and okay, I'm going to come clean
(25:59):
and soup bowl party Moroccan nachos madewith ground lamb. Oh no, they
were chicks still they It was justso good anyway, I had it.
Nothing happened. I didn't, youknow, fall over, I didn't get
(26:19):
sick. It was it was.It was a good day. Um.
So for me, it was acombination of feeling like this virus that went
from animals to people or so thatwas a theory. At one point early
on in the pandemic, felt likesort of like one more thing or the
straw. I hate this expression,the straw that broke the camel's back.
(26:40):
But you know what I'm saying,impossible camels back something like that. Yeah,
I mean, I don't want tobreak anybody's back, but you know,
much less a camel. Lovely animalsuntil they spit at you. But
I digress. Um. It wasa combination of I hadn't been liking chicken.
We ate a lot of chicken.I never ate a lot of red
meat. I was never a bigred meat eater. Having said that,
(27:03):
you know, my grandfather was abutcher, and we ate meat every single
night in my childhood. Growing up, it was like lamb chops one night,
London broil the next night. Abrief A brief commercial here for my
other podcast in this story, inwhich I have an entire episode about my
family's history with meat. But forme, it was a matter of my
(27:27):
health, the planet's health. JustI had a lot of time on my
hands, so I could explore vegetarianrecipes. Great, I love it.
I I never really got into meat. I don't ever find myself craving me.
(27:48):
I as a little kid, hadalways had a hard time chewing it.
I would chew and chew and chewand chew. And it's going to
be interesting to see what happens withmy kids because because Evan Keith kosher and
and it's a whole thing to dragout the meat dishes. Um, we
just don't do it very often.I would say I probably make meat,
(28:10):
usually chicken, like once a week. I always make briskit on Honkka and
Passover and you know, my matsof ball soup for Passover. But um,
in general, we don't eat alot of it. Anna is not
into it at all. Sasha likesit when we when we have it sometimes.
Um. But I only started eatingmeat when I started getting serious about
(28:36):
about writing about food, because Ididn't really want to just be a vegetarian
food writer. Um. And Ialways have tried to think of it as
not always the star of the show, like kind of the you know,
It's like it's just as important asthe vegetables and the grains and whatever else
(28:56):
you have on your plate. Um. What I think is interesting in the
conversation about protein is that the bestoption, in my opinion, that one
of the cheapest and most nutritious,both in terms of fiber and protein,
and the environment options for protein isbeans, and I think a lot of
(29:22):
beans they're they're having a moment theystart you're starting to see like bean dishes.
But I am really hoping that beansbecome I am hoping that we can
mainstream beans a little bit more andhave people understand that an entree that is
based on legumes is not only sonutritious, and a lot of countries around
(29:47):
the world know this already, especiallywhen you have beans and race together.
It's a complete protein um but it'sit's so so cheap, especially if you
buy dried beans, just incredibly cheap. You're a person, I love beans,
and a word for beans on behalfof beans. Let me just say
a lot of people don't eat beansbecause of the gas that they produce,
(30:11):
and they can make people feel reallyuncomfortable. And it has been my experience
with people who were reluctant to eatbeans that if you keep eating them,
your body starts to actually make theenzyme that breaks them down, so that
over time, and I'm not talkingabout years, you know, we're talking
(30:32):
about really weeks or months at thevery most, your body starts making those
enzymes and you are very easily ableto digest beans. It's quite miraculous.
I mean, we are meant toThere's certain things that as humans, I
think we are meant to do andbe, And that's part of my whole
(30:52):
approach with vegetarianism. It's like,there is enough that grows from the ground
on this planet that can sustain usbeautifully. Now that would be an argument
for veganism, which I'm not goingthat far. But we're meant to walk,
right, We're not meant to besitting in cars. We're meant to
(31:14):
be moving. We're meant to beeating what grows in the ground. And
beans, I totally believe are amainstay of that. Yeay, beans,
there's to beans. Well, USh, what would we call our bean episode?
Oh my goodness, fava? Thereyou go, there you go?
(31:37):
All right, all right, I'llget working on that one. I don't
know that there's that much more tosay. But so in the end,
would you say that we should beconcerned about the chemicals in the fake meat
that we're eating these days? Imean, whenever people start talking about chemicals,
my eye sort of glaze over becauseeverything else chemicals. Everything has chemicals.
(32:00):
The world is made of chemicals,and I don't think we should be
concerned, and it's you know,whether or not to eat meat is such
a personal decision, and so Icertainly wouldn't let the chemicals keep you away
from it. What I would sayis I like to look at less processed
(32:22):
versions of whatever I'm interested in wheneverpossible for environmental reasons, and I guess
for health reasons and often for costreasons. So, like we said,
beans are great, and if youcan afford meat options, if you want
to eat meat and you can affordmeat that is more sustainably raised, then
(32:45):
then go for that. However,if you're feeding a crowd and that crowd
includes some vegetarians, you can't gowrong with impossible. I would do the
impossible grounds that comes not the patties, but the ones that come in in
a square package like Granby or aswe said before, the spicy Italian Beyond
(33:08):
Burgers, or just get a geta garden burger. Garden Burgerer did so
I'm hungry. Thank you so muchfor listening to all the efforts today.
She's Gabby Moscow, It's and I'mJoe Anne Green and we love hearing from
(33:29):
you. So please get in touchand follow us on social media. You
can email us at All the Effortpod at gmail dot com or follow us
at All the Efforts Pod on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and YouTube.
Have a great week. Bye byebye
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