019: 1x10, Progeny

So this is how democracy dies… with a dumb first name. Co-captains Per Ennis and Per Truex fight the future and discuss doomed love, barely-mentioned siblings, and DC silliness.

CARDS TO SAVE THE TIMELINE
Scenarios:
• To save the future, we will have to kill ______ as a baby.
• By the year 2147, all of America will be owned by _____ Industries.
• “In the future, “____” will be considered a perfectly acceptable first name.
Solutions/People:
• Ray Palmer’s stupid brother, Sydney.
• A random flashback to a past life.
• Dwarf Star Alloy.
• Per Degaton.
• Killing baby Hitler.
• Beloved Canadian actor, Jewel Staite.

BINGO
• Legend v. Legend
• Suit Up
• Waverider Brig
• DC Deep Cut
• Arrow Reference
• Flash Reference

Follow us on socials @legendsofalways and send us an email at [e-mail].

Matt Truex is a Warner Bros. Discovery employee. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are his own and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Warner Bros. Discovery.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, Matt Patricia, if youwere a time traveler, would you go
back and kill baby Hitler? Yeah, let's just jump right into this,
Okay. I have many thoughts.It is the thesis of the episode.

(00:33):
I know Hitler no predegatin, Yes, okay, I suppose we will discuss
that further coming off. Welcome toAlways Hold On too, DC's Legends of
Tomorrow. I am one of yourco captains, Treshanis, and I'm the
other one, Matt Tretes. WhatI mean is it's the timeline thing right
where I'm like, if I amam back in time and I kill baby

(00:56):
Hitler, I'm not saying he doesn'tdeserve to die. I'm like fine,
in like if it's like a boy'sfrom Brazil thing and we like found a
couple of them in Argentina, Yep, yep, I'll done, you know,
like you bet, But it thetimeline effects, like I think that
would then mean that we were notThere is also the thing of like,
well, you know, like,would we then be less guarded about it

(01:19):
when other dictatory type awful racist peoplesay became president, would some people be
less guarded about that? I don'tknow, But in the future timeline.
I don't give a shit if youtell me some kid is about to kill
a million people in like twenty years. Yeah, sure, at five of
those. So it's back to thatyou know that thing from from Star City

(01:40):
twenty forty six. We're like,it's your future, therefore it's less real,
right, yes, yeah, exactlythe same thing with Zari and all
that. Yeah. So I thinkthat the general immoral conundrum of these things
always comes out where it's like,it's a kid, he hasn't done anything
yet. Yeah, I know,I guess it's pre crime from Minority Report.

(02:00):
So there's this just reminded me backin years ago, like twelve thirteen,
more than that years ago. Idon't know if you were ever a
vlog Brothers fan, what of logBrothers fans Hank and John Green. No,
So back in the day, whenthey were still early on in their
youtubing career, they decided to like, come up. They were presented with

(02:23):
the same quandary, you know,would you go back in time? Would
you kill baby Hitler? And asa as a compromise, they suggested the
evil baby orphanage. Okay, areyou kidnap evil babies from throughout time?
And you stick them in the evilbaby orphanage instead of kid, which is
kind of what they try to dowith which is essentialisode. I don't know,

(02:45):
are you are you? Are you? Where are you? In the
moral stance of of Baby Hitler,and like just predegaton in general, I
feel similar to everyone else, Likethe moral quandary works for me, where
it's like, you know, theperson hasn't done anything yet, you know
they're going to do something, Yeah, but can you really you know,

(03:06):
can you affect some other part ofthe timeline Or there's also the question that
you brought up of, like youknow, what effect does that have on
the future, Like does it causesomething? I don't know if there's something
worse than Hitler, but does itcause something potentially worse? We're speaking in
broad strokes here, yeah, exactlyif we're talking about kill Baby Hitler.
But when it comes to something,the person that takes his place in history

(03:29):
then actually succeeds and win World Wartwo theoretically, you know, like give
us Earth X yeah exactly, Yeah, something like that. And there's also
like with this storyline, like obviouslythe better thing would be to kill Vandal
Savage. Well, I mean,look, if that's ideal throughout this whole
season I got anyway, I don'tknow. I also I am an asshole

(03:52):
and not a superhero. I likemy superheroes saying like this just makes us
as bad as them, Like Ilike, you know, Ray and Stein
and everybody like fighting against this idea. I will say that I don't think
killing a fourteen year old who isgoing to release the Armageddon virus and killed
billions of people it makes you asbad as him. But yeah, yeah,

(04:15):
I agree with that too. Iam also like this. There's a
couple steps of this here where,like you know, it's all a very
reductive question to begin with, whereit's like, yeah, okay, you
could kill the figurehead, there's stilla bunch of shit heads around him that
are going to do the awful thingtoo potentially, you know. Yeah,
so yeah, if you can't tellwhat we're talking about. Season one,

(04:38):
episode ten Progeny Yes aired on mybirthday and sixteen, thank you very much.
April seventh, something, Oh,the second episode of No The first
episode of Crisis on Earth actared onmy birthday. Oh, that's exciting.
Written by Phil Klemmer and Mark Kuckenheim. So we Got We Got the Big

(04:59):
Wigs. Big Wigs this week,directed by David Gebbs ratings one point eight
eight million, which is a slightdip from the week prior in the week
that follows, which are both inthe one point nine but yeah, it
kind of so high and exactly wherewe end up. We'll never touch these
numbers again, we will not.Our team Rundown is once again the Ogs.

(05:24):
So we have Rip Hull, Rip, Sarah Ray Stein, Jack Snart,
Kendra and Mick parentheses ish, yeah, make make make here. He
exists not necessarily on the team thiswhole time, stuck stuck in Yeah.
Anyway, we'll get to recap atseason one. So you know, Vandal
Savage out there is still mean.Mick was getting a little wild, so

(05:46):
Snart told the team that he oldyellowed him in the woods. Turns out
though, not so, and hewound up being chronos the whole time,
so that sucks. He's now ina time out on the Wave Rider.
Oh and Kendre and Ray recently gotback from spending two years in the nineteen
fifties, so they've had a wholeshow already essentially basically, yes, and

(06:11):
Sarah was also there, but itdoesn't doesn't have any as much bearing on
this episode. She rejoined the Leagueof Assassins. She was out Nanda parbatting,
right, she was out Nanda barbattingafter I'm making out with a cute
nurse. So there are two mainthings that I want to talk about as
we get into the main a plotof this episode. Yeah, okay,
this is a weird set up forour dossier too, by the way,

(06:31):
I did my best to break thisdown, but it will be a weird
one. But jump in number one. Per Degaton as a name, Yes,
yes, Per Degaton as a nameis ridiculous, real stupid for multiple
reasons. One, it's ridiculous andtwo, as we find out in this
episode, his last name is Degaton, meaning his first name give him to

(06:57):
him, assumedly by his parents isper yep. His father tour At Degaton.
I did, like, did itit happen to you? The same
way where like you're like, prettyDegatin, it's stupid name, sci fi
whatever. But then they someone onthe board of the Kasnia Conglomerate or whatever
refers to his father as mister Takaton. Yes, oh no, oh,

(07:21):
now it's really stupid. Yes,That's exactly how it happened to me,
which is why I immediately texted you, Oh my god, his last name
is Decta. Yep, yeah,it's two. It's two. It should
be almost like Kryptonian rules, whereit's like, can we just like call
like per the like family name andnow it's you know, like persh Megaton
it's his father or whatever. It'slike. This is why they never referred

(07:45):
to him just by his first name. It's the whole name. It's a
very very stupid name. The secondthing I want to mention is I really
find the whole setup of the KasniaConglomerate as interesting because it's not the only
show that has like positive a futureworld in which like there are no blanker

(08:05):
any like states, there are companies. I went kind of right to Firefly
kind of does that. Yeah,Firefly does that, and so does this
probably little known, uh sci fishow called Continuum. Okay it was,
Yeah, it was a Canadian showthat got picked up by Sci Fi Channel
in the US, and it's it'sliterally like a future in which corporations have

(08:26):
replaced the government. My cat justlike flew off the stairs as though he'd
skipped several and then it made ita noise anyway, So yeah, it's
corporations have replaced the government and thenlike it's a whole basically like this positing
of our our future in which thathappens and is also like worse. Sure,

(08:46):
I can't see it being a goodthing. No, it doesn't seem
like it would be a good thing. And one of the things that it's
mentioned in the show, it's notjust that it's the Kasneian Conglomerate. Also,
Star Labs has taken over for CentralCity. Star Labs had it wrong
in my notes for some reason,I thought it was smoke. But yeah,
it's so like Star Labs is theUS, and I don't know who

(09:07):
the Kasnian Conglomerate is because Adam Tech. Yeah it's Kasnia though, sure,
yeahs like a modest DC deep cutsright away here, like obviously Kasnia.
Yeah, what's interesting because it hasbeen a while since I've rewatched this specific
episode. This is the first mentionthat we get of Kasnia. But then,

(09:28):
of course it becomes a major plotpoint in Supergirl season four when they
do Red Daughter. Yeah, yeah, and she lands in Kasnia. Whole
thing. Yeah, My question wasis Vandal Savage's connection to Casnia from the
comics, because there's a great JusticeLeague episode called Made of Honor or something

(09:50):
basically Wonder Woman would be friends aprincess that's about to get married to Vandal
Savage, and she's the Princess ofCasnia. Oh interesting, And that's I
would imagine that that's probably where theygot it, just that connection of it
all, just that makes sense.But yeah, that's that's fun stuff.
I like the idea, you know, from a from a dystopian sci fi

(10:13):
stand of corporations becoming countries. There'sjust the thing where it like between that
and Protegaton, and I keep sayingit like Rip does Protegaton and and Armageddon
viruses and all that. It's justlike everything is so cheap sci fi this
week, you know, like they'regoing for it. But I see why

(10:35):
they didn't go to the future verymuch. Going forward. I mean,
the future is always difficult, rightbecause like either there are these massive jumps
in technology, or you're going likejust a little bit in the future,
which is what like Zaria and Behradare like, you know, twenty thirty
years in the future, so notreally that much has changed. There's more
holograms everywhere. That's about it.I feel like they really only go to
the future in terms of like referencingBishop, and when Sarah ends up in

(11:01):
the future to go she finds outabout Eva being a clone right in the
same location, by the way,the same place. So yeah, I
don't I don't know how they goto the future that much. I imagine
that's probably part of it, althoughI was thinking the whole time, Yeah,
it's like cheap sci fi thrills andstuff. But I always really liked
that, and I found like thisdropping them in the future in this world

(11:24):
where they are adam suits as likecenturions and you know that stuff, or
sentinels if you want to get toMarvel see I went Iron Legion, but
you're you're cooler. Yeah, I'msticking in the Accident universe. Yeah,
yeah, I'm stuck in the MZU. Everything's funny, Like I always find
that really fun and interesting. Idon't think they could have or should have

(11:46):
ever done it like that much.I think the past is always also very
interesting because you get to throw inlike historical easter eggs. Yeah, but
this allowed them to throw in alot of like DC Easter eggs, Yes,
totally. Yeah, I'm not sayingI just like it. I'm saying,
like, it's just the amount oflike sci fi e ship that they
have to throw into this episode,like even with like down those dumb things

(12:07):
like obviously costumes and and uh,Smart's got like this future glasses when they
try to kidnap the kid and allthat, and I'm just like, this
is such a big swing and allseems expensive. Everything's got to be replaced,
you know. Like, I'm notsaying that it's it's easier when they
go back in time, but itcan be in certain situations. I see

(12:28):
why they avoided this going They cando They can do World War One with
some costumes at a forest, youknow, right, right exactly, Yeah,
rent some costumes the open field,you know, yeah, right exactly.
So it's it's easier to do Ithink the past in terms of certain
things, and it is to thefuture. Like like you said, there's
a lot of like CGI replacement stuffthey have to do, whereas for the
past they have to do builds.But they're more tactile too. It's probably

(12:52):
easier to shoot, yeah exactly.You can you can kind of pick your
angles on this where like this theylike, we had our engagement. It
was there because Kat is a bigfan of what we call it the Eddie
got Kidnapped Bridge from the Flash,which is they're on in this episode,
and it's a lovely little area onthe shore in Vancouver where it's just like
kind of FUTUREI looking town homes basically, and like that's where they kidnap Protegaton

(13:18):
from he's on his way to gymnasticsclass. I think, Okay, so
I like the future stuff, butyou're right, there's a lot of stuff
that's either easier or more interesting aboutthe past. I do think the costumes
are better in the past because likein the future, they're always like really
sterile. They're trying. Yeah,exactly, it's got that got that budget
Batman beyond look where it's like yeah, we we we all they have to

(13:39):
be kind of similar coats, butalso we're not doing collars. But also
yeah, no one has a collareverything too much, so we've all just
kind of popped our collars here.It's all. It's all, it's tough.
It's supposed to be, you know, futuristic with that being too out
there right exactly, but we havementioned a lot of things about how like
this episode has a lot of DCstreggs, which is why it's very funny

(14:01):
to me that per Degaton is absolutelynot at all like his comic book Counterfeart.
Okay, tell me about this,because I don't think I've ever read
a story with him as as themain villain. I've looked him up and
gone like black with hints of redand seeing that, like they dressed the
kid and the soldiers and all thatwith black and hints of red. Indo,

(14:22):
yeah, fair enough. But he'sgot a big D on his chest,
have a big D on his chest. He's got like the buttons on
the you know the side, yered skull, very Nazi look. Yeah.
Yes, I don't really know thatmuch about him either. I had
only like looked him up in thepast because I was like, so,
I think I said in a previousepisode that I didn't realize that per Degaton
was an actual DC Comics character rightuntil I was playing DC Universe online,

(14:48):
which I find very fun. Andthat's a little simple because I get to
do a lot of DC striggs.You don't. There was a whole Birds
of Prey episode that I played oncewhich is really fun. That's fun.
Yes, there was. There wasone where I was on the watch tower
and I went over and I sawa repunter and if you talk to him,
he says something about Protecaton doing blahblah blah, and I was like,

(15:09):
oh my god, there's an actuallike Prodecaton's an actual character. I
know both these people, yeah,right, I know these names, and
also I know them in the samecontext as each other. So here I
am thinking that he's exactly like thecharacter that he is on the show,
but which is like, you know, futuristic, fascistic, not at all
who he is in the comics.Okay, so in the comics he's just

(15:33):
sort of vaguely a villain. He'she was a he's from the future,
right, No, oh, hewas from nineteen forties, the nineteen forties.
He's the Justice Society of America,one of their villains. Okay,
he's in like the Injustice Society fora while. I think like he in

(15:54):
and out, like he sometimes isin in the Injustice Society and most other
things of yeah, exactly, andlike there's always different lineups for the Injustice
Society. But like his main othervillain was Brainwave. Yeah, I don't
even know who that is. Okay, he's a telepathic I think he's in

(16:15):
Stargirl. Oh okay, I neverfinished star Girl. Yeah, so Stargirl
is great and everybody should watch it, especially if you want to learn more
about like Justice Society stuff, becauseit takes all of the Justice Society lore
and it's basically like the Justice Societyexisted, right, and now there are
these kids who have discovered these superheroesand are all now taking on. So

(16:37):
it's like the second versions of thecharacters, right, Yeah, the Female
Doctor Midnight. Yeah, it's theyou know, the Son of of Rex
Tyler, that kind of thing.You know. Didn't they get to a
Green Lantern kid too? Yeah,there's there's actually Alan Scott Green Lantern,
but yeah, there's there's Jaden Obsidianas well. Yeah. So it's it's

(17:00):
a great show. Everybody should watchit. And they do mention Prodecton like
it does an off hand comment atone point in that Jay Garrick had banished
him to an alternate timeline sort ofthing. Interesting. Yeah, so yeah,
Prodecaton is just sort of like avaguely evil dude who is obsessed with
time travel His whole thing was thathe was supposed to go to the future

(17:21):
and get some kind of weapon touse in World War one or World War
two. Sorry okay, not notunlike Vandal in that Justice League episode two.
Yeah, so he ends up sortof like as a vaguely evil time
travel e villain with a stupid namewho is like friends with Brainwave and then
some other villains Gouty. Hence alsowhy Rip is bringing it up to you

(17:41):
on the DC universe or yes,because whatever, Because he's the time traveler,
right, he's the threat of thetimeline. Yeah, exactly, So
like he bumps around in time andtries to alter history, you know,
to help himself, and you knowall this. So he's just he's just
villainous and time traveler. He's notat all a future dictator. They just
sort of took the name and likeinserted it into He's more like Vandal or

(18:03):
anything. I see. I don'tmind that in this instance, just because
it's such a like nobody knew aboutit character, you know, I don't
know, how do you feel aboutthat with like these smaller characters. I
think it's totally fine. It doesn'tonly you know, Yeah, it's predict
on in name only, but whocares, you know, who really cared
that much about the you know,the the purity of the predicat in character,

(18:25):
you know, and if you did, why please let me know em?
Then honestly you probably wouldn't enjoy ashow called DC's Ledgend of Tomorrow,
right anyway? So yeah, sothat's that's sort of our setup, right,
But we haven't even gotten into theactual plot. No, I mean
we've we've discussed the moral implications ofit, but essentially Gideon and Rip or

(18:47):
telling the crew like, in thefuture, this kid is going to sanction
the release of the Army Geddon virus, which is going to take out like
half the world or whatever and leavethe world susceptible to vandals, Savage eventually
taking over as a dictator. SoRip event initially wants to kill baby Prodecaton
and then everybody kind of talks himdown to like, I like the way

(19:11):
Ray says it, where it's justlike, okay, we've gone from from
killing a child to child abduction.Progress, great, right exactly? No
one's I think Snart is the onlyone is like, yeah, this is
what we're gonna have to do,right, yeah, yeah, and everybody
else is just like, no,well, what does abduct him? It'll
be fine, we'll remove him fromthe timeline, him from the timeline.

(19:32):
I don't know how permanently this wasgonna go, but whatever, but I
do love that like that all ofa sudden, Okay, that's the plan.
We're going to intercept this kid thisway to gymnastics class to the fact
that watched by this little army,and it's it's Sarah and uh Snart and
Rip I think are the only onesthat are like actually on the board to

(19:53):
kidnap the kid. But there's allthis talk of like, oh, we
can't kill the kid. We can'tkill a kid, all right, let's
start the plan. Sarah sniper asa soldier out of the way, and
I'm like, okay, so it'snot that we're like the most moral people
in the world. It's just thatwe don't want to kill this child.
Essentially, I don't know. Ifound the JUSTI position of the morals.

(20:15):
They're very funny to me. Wecan't kill the child, you know,
right, It's it's basically the sameconcept as the evil baby. We're finished,
you know. It's it's we can'tkill a kid. You know,
that's that's bad. But we understandwhere you're coming from. Where if he
is the thing that allows Vandal totake power, Okay, we'll remove him
from the timeline and disrupt Vandal's abilityto take power. You know, certainly

(20:38):
not going to go back to youknow, one thousand BC when he was
you know, less powerful or anything. No, he's going to go to
the future right before he takes poweragain, go back to the day before
rip fucked up killing him before,and then we just do it again,
not even the day before, goback years before. Sure, sure,

(20:59):
you're right, he was obviously evilbefore that, but I mean, how
far back until we're in the samediscussion. Well well yeah, yeah,
So so they end up getting onboard with this whole let's just kidnap him
instead, which is fine, Buthe's like flanked by this like six or
eight dude team, right, andSarah takes out one of them and ripped

(21:22):
just like slides in. And howunobservant are they? I also, like,
I get that the timing was goodor whatever, but there's still like
a body on the street behind you, like someone saw that obviously not the
person standing directly next to the guywho just disappeared and slid back in with
totally different hair, right, andwe know that the Kasneian Conglomerate is a

(21:42):
very dystopian place where like everyone's gottheir stuff, their ideas and their their
DNA on file and stuff, andpresumably like every street is watched at all
times too by the Adam things likenobody caught the dead body, right,
no one, like one of theAdam thing he didn't notice Sarah being a
sniper. Apparently not, thankfully theywere busy I guess at that time.

(22:06):
Yes, yeah, whatever, Theysteal the kid. They monitor his dreams
on the wave Rider, which that'sfunny. I didn't remember that Gideon could
do that because you can do itin this episode and never again and then
we never talked about it again,right yeah. Yeah, So like he's
dreaming about baking cookies with his mom. Right, They're like, oh,
we can't kill this sweet innocent kid, despite the fact the kid is also

(22:26):
an asshole. Yeah, the giveis an assholt. Yeah, but I
mean, like we're racing through thispart of the plot. But eventually Rip
kind of gets fed up and takesthe kid to some ugly river in Canada
and holds him a gunpoint. Yeah. Well before that, Gideon informs them
not just that he was dreaming aboutbaking cookies with his mom, but that
removing him from the timeline did nothingright, wasn't enough. Yeah, Vandal

(22:51):
still rises to power. He didn'tactually need the kid, He just needed
a way into I guess the Kasneanconglomerate in order to send out the army,
getten virus whatever. So instead Repsidestake him the river, hold him
a gun point because he's going tokill him. Yep. But like I
guess at that point too, it'slike kind of goes back to the point
we made earlier where it's just likethere's still all the other ship heads around

(23:12):
that want to do the plan,whether you take out Baby Hitler or not,
Like this is going to happen,right, someone else is still there
who's like following along or he's easyto corrupt or whatever. Just pick the
next person. Baby Perdegaton is ameans to an end for a guy that's
already got his mechanations going right,Like he's had thousands of years to plan

(23:33):
what he's doing right now. He'she's going he's got backup plans exactly.
Not an idiot, as we haveproved over the last nine episodes. But
the other thing is, like Ifind it interesting that Gideon can run the
permutations to tell you that like noamount of like storing him somewhere else in
the timeline will make it so thatVandal will not rise to power, but

(23:55):
she can't tell you that killing himwon't do it either. Yeah, that
was a little like she can onlytell you all those things in the fifth
act, you know, like yeah, like right at the end, like
they can't be like, okay,Gideon run the permutations, tell us which
plan. Turns out, this wasa waste of an episode. We shouldn't
have even done this. Everyone forsorry, because Matt Time wants to happen.
Time wants to happen. It iscement with intent. It is it

(24:21):
is intense intent, full cement.Yes, so whatever, it all doesn't
work, despite the fact that likeyou know, Rip doesn't kill him,
he has his he has his conscience, and whatever he tries to warn him
that Vandal is trying to use him, it doesn't do anything. There is
the big fun sci fi battle bythe wave Rider that this all becomes a

(24:45):
part of, but Essentially, duringthis big sci fi battle, Vandal Savage
takes Sarah hostage, and then inorder to get Sarah back, we do
like a prisoner exchange with Pradegaton.Yeah, and it's the fact that tour
Degaton, mister Dagaton, is willingto do that and like sacrifice you know,

(25:07):
the killing blow in the battle basicallyto get his son that back,
which makes per Degaton go like,oh, well, dad's two fucking weak,
I'm gonna kill him and we're gonnalike move up this timeline essentially,
like it turns out that virus isgoing to be released two years earlier than
it was supposed to all because thiskid is already shitty and it's just like
father is weak, I must takehim out, Yeah exactly. He's like

(25:30):
because he has said that before too, like when when Rip had him,
he was saying that, like hisfather is weak, Like he calls his
father a weak in that conversation,right, which is in my mind,
is like an indication that he's alreadykind of a prick, you know,
right, right, it's already done, like anything that could have been saved
and this child is over. Yeah, most likely anyway, I mean maybe

(25:51):
he'll just be a prick for therest of his life. But he might
he might not be any old dictator. But you know, if if vandals
in his ear, you know right, it's already it's already too late.
So it also leaves Rip at theend of this just going like drinking with
Giddy and being like, did Ido the right thing? And she's like,
I don't know, like killing people, not killing people's usually the right

(26:12):
thing, but they are to say, you know, I feel like if
it were me, my plan wouldnot be to kill the child. It
would be to get rid of thevirus. Great idea, Hey, Tricia,
thank you for coming. Could heuse you on the wave Rider in
twenty sixteen? Like, if theproblem is that Prodecaton is going to release
the arm again virus and that iswhat actually leads to Vandal's rise, not

(26:34):
the kid, but the virus.Can we wipe out the virus? Can
we wipe out the research on thevirus? Right? Can we render it
in nert? Can we kill thescientist that came up with it? Like?
Sure? Can we can we?If only we had an atomic superhero
that could transmute the virus into somethingelse or something well, they can only
do that ever so often, well, the plot would dictate it, so

(26:56):
they would they could do it,they'd be five of it. But yeah,
good point. That's just what I'mthinking, you know. Anyway,
And on the other side of theepisode, Duel State's here here, which
I just I feel like, one, this is a little bit of a
white spitual state totally. She's inthe episode for like five minutes, but
also always nice to see Dual Statecontinues to look great. We'll always be

(27:17):
Kayley to me. We think formost of the episodes she's like giving a
tour to Kendra and Ray and maybesomebody else, but it's it's Ray,
Jacks and Stein because that's when Rayinduced himself as doctor a Hannibal elector kind
of a elector very good and faceis like, what but that's from the
pant Like, wouldn't you still knowthat? I'm sure they're still making Hannibal

(27:37):
movies in in Star Labs America.Maybe maybe they're maybe Kasnia can't get them,
oh maybe. Yeah. You know, export rights are really weird in
the future. Yeah, because ofall those you know, corporations, the
conglomerates not working together. Yeah,that's a good point. So, yeah,
she's giving them a tour because hercompany is the one that makes the
sentinels. Yes, so Ray islike, I want to find out how

(28:02):
my technology blah blah blah blah blahgot corrupted for the future and private police
force whatever. Yeah, so shesays that, like, you know,
this has always been this is inmy blood. My family has been doing
this all the way back to mygreat great great great great whatever grandfather.
Cut to bust of Brandon Routh.Oh, Brandon Routh. That says,
well, sort of like vaguely BrandonRouth. Right, it's like a third

(28:23):
year sculpture student making Brandon Rauth's culture. Again, it feels like the TV
budget we have two days to putthis together version of Yeah, but you
also need to make it vague enoughfrom the reveal. Right, yes,
that's true too. So it's sortof like vaguely Brendan Ralph and says Palmer
on it, which is how youknow it's definitely him and not just like
a Kendall. Speaking of vague andreveal and stuff, is this the first

(28:45):
and only time we mentioned Ray's stupidbrother Sidney Palmer. Yes, it is
the first and only time you mentionedRay stupid brother Sidney Palmer. Weird.
Yes, I find it so funnyin shows like this where it's like some
people like are defined by their relationshipswith their family, and some people are
just like you learn late in thegame, like oh yeah, I'm one

(29:06):
of five, Like wow, youknow right, like I have Where were
they four years ago? Yeah?Exactly. So we spend most of the
episode with Ray thinking that he isher great great whatever the fuck grandfather,
and that Felicity was pregnant before heleft, right, and it could only
be Felicity, right, Apparently itcan only be Felicity, I think.

(29:26):
Okay, So it just feels againlike they're talking around it. They're not
really referencing Felicity, but obviously theyare. But it also feels so anticlimactic
to me if you're an Arrow fanat the time, where it's just like,
you know, Felicity isn't pregnant atthis point, you know, right,
were you watching Arrow at the time? No? It was not,

(29:48):
Okay, so I was. Iwas still watching Arrow up until the end
of the season, right, welluntil almost the end of the season famously,
so I do remember, like Iremember this happening and him being like,
oh my god, I must havehad a kid. Felicity must have
been pregnant before she ghosted me aweek before, you know whatever. But
I remember I feel like I waslike, it didn't feel anti climactic to
me. It felt more like,Okay, so what is the explanation for

(30:11):
this going to be right? BecauseI know from watching Arrow the Felicity is
not pregnant. It could be likea William situation, sure, a kid
he didn't know about, or itcould be some other explanation. So it
was actually not anticlimactic, in myopinion, pretty funny when they did the
reveal. Okay, well, isn'tit worked for you? Yeah, it

(30:32):
worked for me. It totally workedfor me. Also, it was very
low stakes, so who cares?Yeah, fish that too. There is
the thing of like, wow,you know, if if I'd been around
and been a father to my kidthat I didn't know I had, maybe
the science wouldn't have been corrupted forevil. It's like, no, there's
a lot of other factors here.Ray, you could have been a great
father, and this is all couldhave happened the same way. I get

(30:53):
like, you're not going to stopthe conglomerates from coming together, you know,
right exactly, you not being therefor fifty years or so, probably
doesn't, you know, push thescales too far and either way, right,
not at all, But I dolike the big reveal that it's that
it's his brother. Yeah, wherehe's She's like, oh my god,
you're trying to tell me that yourSydney Palmer. Just like what what?

(31:18):
It is fun too where it's justlike we've never heard of this this brother
before, but apparently he's shitty enoughthat he stole his brother's work and then
let it get corrupted in this way. Also this idea that he's like,
well, Felicity must have hired himafter I after I left, right,
Okay, but there's no mention ofthis. No. It's also so weird

(31:40):
for a time travel show that likethis is this is the quote unquote for
a future episode and one of theonly ones really that they do, and
it almost feels like they can't comeback to it because so much of what
happens here is changed ultimately that it'sjust like like none of this matters,
you know, like if you cameback, there wouldn't be a Jewels,
there wouldn't be an Adam Legion oranything like that, you know, and

(32:02):
also like it could be his greatgreat whatever the hell, because he does
end up going back to the presenttime with a wife. That's a good
point. It could be his Noora'sdescendant, even though of course she says
it's not. It's not. Butbut also I guess he could rewrite there.
The point is you'd have to reshufflethe entire deck if you came back
to this timeline essentially exactly. Meanwhile, just on the stupid superhero side of

(32:28):
this thing, I really did enjoythe idea of the Adam Legion seeing them.
The design was cool. I thinkRay like kind of fighting them towards
the end was really fun, despitethe fact that like he gets zapped by
them and falls from a great heightand just lands like he should be dead.
I don't, I don't care.What'sn't that Adam's suit? Maybe there
are dampeners in the Adam zuit younever know. Yes, apparently there's gravity

(32:52):
dampeners in the Adams zod. Itkept him very protected exactly. It's made
out of vibranium, so that's it, just distributed it around. I mean,
the way he talks about dwarf star. It might as well be vibranium.
That's okay, fair enough, butI like that they're too powerful for
him, and like they literally haveto go back to the source. They

(33:14):
go back to the company, thecommand center and shut them down that way.
Yeah. Yeah, And it justgives some some fun visuals of like
him and Kendras staring through the hallwaysof this well, them and Firestorm of
course can fly. I feel likeit's like half the cast can fly.
Yeah, I love season at thispoint. That's I think that's I've said
it before, but it's it's likeI love Season one fight, where like

(33:35):
all of a sudden, half thecast is up in the air and on
fire, and you know exactly.It's although I can't believe that Sarah allowed
herself to get captured. Yeah,season one Sarah good hair, but great
hair. Not my favorite suit,but great hair. Oh no, no,
I'm fair. As I said previously, she's she is in your coat
that you like in this episode.Yes, I do really like that coat.
Yeah, good coat. Like that'sit for big plot stuff. Should

(33:59):
we get into the ship long,Yes, let's do it, because the
shiplogue is the rest of the plot. It's really Yeah. The rest of
these these plot points in this episode, the toughest one to talk about right
now is is Mick, which Iguess could be its own kind of plot
discussion, but basically, it's likeMick is in jail and getting visited by
everybody, Like a rip shows upin the beginning. He says he's gonna

(34:19):
have to kill him and Snart.He's all pissed off. Sarah comes and
it's like, hey, you know, Snarts your buddy, and he's like,
fuck off, and then she can'tstart ultimately talk. Yes, he
and start ultimately talk and do somepunchy punchies. I've quite a lot of
puny punches. Yes. I don'tknow. This is this is a weird
Mick for me, where it's like, you know, he mentions it in

(34:43):
this episode where like basically he's livedlifetimes with the time Masters being tortured and
being made into them, and I'mlike, this already doesn't feel true in
this episode, you know, likeyou just feel like like menal Mick to
me, and obviously it's not somethingthey follow through on. I don't know,
like this feels like a very bigdropped thread that doesn't go anywhere in

(35:07):
the show for me, if it'sprobably very difficult to figure out how to
characterize someone that has only been gonelike three episodes. Yeah, and yet
is a totally supposed to be atotally different person. I do feel like
he's calmer, sure, but otherthan that, there really isn't that much

(35:28):
difference, Like he's still holding thegrudge against Snart's. It still feels very
fresh for him, whereas if he'sbeen you know, however many years he's
been with the Time Masters, Ifeel like it shouldn't feel ass fresh.
It should almost be like, Idon't even know who you are kind of
thing, more like healthy programming thananything. Yeah, exactly. It's it
almost could have been the first versionof the show, like essentially recasting an

(35:52):
actor in the middle of the show, which is you know, then obviously
becomes a tradition. I don't know, it's just I don't mean to be
so negative on the show. Thisseason one weird story decisions that we've talked
about many times, but it's like, it's when you're watching this. When
I watched it initially, it feltlike, oh, this is a way
to kind of level him up,give him time knowledge like make him a

(36:15):
little more useful to the team.But of course that that gets obliterated basically
because we obliterate the time masters,and all that Knowledgy would have is useless,
and we forget that this happened anyway. Right. I just feels like
a story dead end essentially. Essentially, it does, because nothing really comes
of it. I do wonder ifthey had different plans, or if they
had sort of a different division forwhat this would be, or if the

(36:36):
whole idea was just to make himmore useful for season one and then you
know, we come around to Mickbecause Snart has to go away at the
end of the season, right.I don't know. That's a good point
too. I wonder if they Iwonder when they know that they're going to
lose went Worth, maybe they gointo the season knowing that. Maybe that's
that's a halfway through decision too.Yeah, maybe hard to say. I

(36:58):
don't know. Kendra and the deceasedCarter, Yes, this is kind of
the d story of the episode,But Kendra is having these flashbacks of her
life with Carter and their son Aldusand then becoming the Boardman's like this is
this is the scientist we meet inthe pilot, and even the original crossover
backdoor pilot set up for this,Like, I think the heart of this
is like she's having flashbacks to likewhen she felt Vandal getting closer and they

(37:21):
changed their name to the Boardman's andwhatnot. And she's with Ray at this
point but tells him that it basicallyfeels like being with him is like cheating
on Carter and that timy wymy crazysci fi concept totally works for me.
I enjoy it very much. Whatdo you think. I think it works

(37:43):
for me a lot too. Ido think that because of how quickly Carter
came and went, the show didn'treally give him a fair shake, yes,
in terms of like getting the audienceto like him at all. Yep,
he's in you know, he's inthe crossover, and he's in one
episode of the season the series withoutthe seasons. He's in more another episode

(38:08):
later. Well, he's in moreepisodes later, but as a different character.
So like, you know, we'vehad a couple episodes with him,
and the whole time he's been kindof obnoxious, Yes, because he's trying
to get Kenrid to remember who sheis. We never really get to see
them when she does, and like, so I think the thing that this

(38:30):
episode does for that is it givesus a glimpse of what they're like when
they're stable, and I think itmakes it really makes me look him Like
I really like him too. Ithink he's I think he's a good guy,
and it's like really unfortunate. Ialso really like this idea of like

(38:50):
it's gotta be tough because like theyhave this destined, epic, millennia long
romance that they have to keep comingback to again and again. But like
there's also that fact of like andevery every time we see Hawkman Hawk and
then he likes Smallville, like wehave to see a version of them where
one of them has died, oneof them is dead and the other one

(39:12):
is forever morning until they get todie too exactly. And so like we
get that with with Kendra this time, but she is sort of mourning what
she never got to have. Yeah, I think it's really interesting and it's
a bummer for Ray, But ifshe's going to be with someone where this
happens, it's got to be rightbecause he's been nicest dude. Yeah,
I agree with you. I lovewhat you're saying to about the kind of
Carter of it all, because Ilike Carter two and it's it's hard to

(39:36):
say that because like he's here forso little. But like these flashback things,
like these past life moments that weget with them, have to do
so much story work to kind ofwin him back and make him make him
a worthy recipient of her love ultimately, Yeah, you know, yeah,
like we have to eventually be okaywith the fact that she's going to end

(39:59):
up going back to him or whatever. Right, and if one of our
favorite people in the world, RayPalmer in the Dust is actually and this
is the first of more than one, at least two doomed romances on the
show. Yes, of like becauseof the nature of time travel, you're
screwed, you know. Yep,we're talking, Nate and Amya right,
we're talking. Yeah, I seethat works even more for me. But

(40:21):
but yeah, there's there's just thatlike weird sci fi again concept of this
past life thing and feeling that itwas right and she'll never have that again,
but still trying to make it workwith Ray. It all totally pulls
the heart string for me. Butthey're shacked up, they're living together on
the ship, which is fun.They think this is the first time we
really see their quarters and that everyone'sgot like a view screen of like wouldn't

(40:42):
it be nice to be on apretty beach right now? You know,
like that type of thing. Justfun. But like she's telling them like
not she needs him to be hispositive, wonderful self because he does.
She doesn't want him to give upon them. He's her future. And
I'm like, yeah, that works, Like I get this. She's not.
It's it's tough because you know it'snot going to work out ultimately,

(41:02):
But she's not being shitty or manipulativeor whatever. You're too, Like she's
trying to make the best of aweird hand that they've been dealt and they
just spent two years together living inthe fifties, right, She's just trying
to be honest, like she's expressingwhat's going on. She's telling him what
it really feels like. He getsupset, and she's like, I don't
want you to think that this islike over. I want you to keep

(41:23):
fighting for this because you know,basically, like to her, Carter is
dead, like she's never going tobe with Carter, right, So eventual
she just has to, like ifshe has to work through her feelings.
Basically, right, it's all thereal Pearl Harbor situation for them. It's
tough, it really, it reallyis, because he dies, she gets
with Rag and then guess what,he's back again. Anyway, anything else

(41:45):
for the ship log here, Idon't think so there really aren't other relationships,
you know. No, just butthose those like two or three storylines
that we just said are the bigparts of the episode of the episode,
Yeah, they're the big character relationschip parts. The whole episode has a
lot of emotion to it, Ithink, yes, which is also sort

(42:06):
of like softened by the fact thatit's in this weird sci fi you future
that doesn't feel like there's this sweet, weird sci fi you love story happening
in the middle of it. Too. Yeah, I don't know it,
Like I feel like I was meanto this episode just because it's a weird
season one thing where like this plotthreads all over the place, Like we
end with Mick telling us like thehunters are coming and we have to run,

(42:27):
like okay. But this is alsowhy I loved the show, where
it's like, yeah, there's amillion plates in the air. Isn't it
fun? The next episode we haveto hide out in the Old West and
need it like that type of thing. I don't know like that, it
really is. It's biting off alot, and I don't know if it
can chew it all. But itwas so fun to watch back in the
day and see them try to putthis all together. It really, it

(42:49):
really is like they do juggle alot almost in every episode, right,
Like we keep going back and forthto all these different like little plots.
Right there's there's the big story,and then we got to like our B
story, and then we've got likea CD and E story half the time.
Because they managed to serve these charactersall pretty well, I couldn't agree
more so. Anyway, that wasme turning it positive at the end of
being mean and being like, it'sstill a cool show. It's still bizarre,

(43:12):
a good watch, It's still askillful show. Shall we skillfully transition
into games. Let's skillfully transition intogames that I mine really forgot about?
All right, Tricia, legendary moment, all right mine, stupid Sidney.
I just it is in addition tothe pro degaton of it all, it
is the one thing that I associatewith this episode, sure, my stupid

(43:37):
brother Sidney poula stupid brother Sidney.That whole scene was so funny, and
it like breaks the tension of theepisode, right, Yep. I love
it so much. Yep. Suddenlyhe was caring about something he did not
have to be spending any time on. Basically exactly, I'm going to go
with a great season one trope ofwe got hawk Girl this season, there's

(43:58):
a moment in the fight where Kendralies up with one of the soldiers and
just drops him, and I'm like, cool, that's a real hawk Girl.
Moved to me. She doesn't alwaysget to be like the Worrior.
You know that we know her tobe in the comics and most iterations,
so that that just felt really funto me. Ye, MVL, I'm
gonna go. I guess it's smartbecause he was very useful in the mission,

(44:22):
and he eventually, through getting puncheda bunch, gets Mick to like
get over himself and cool off andeventually become a member of the team.
Again, I agree with you.It's snart. Oh cool, Okay,
great, Yeah, good talk.Cards to Save the Timeline. Now here's
the part that I lightly forgot aboutI didn't do scenarios, but you have
three, so I think it worksfor us. Okay, cool, we'll

(44:45):
be fine. Let's let's back andforth him here. Yes, to save
the future, we will need tokill Blank as a baby. By the
year twenty one forty seven, allof America will be owned by Blank Industries.
In the future quote Blank will beconsidered a perfectly acceptable first name.
All right, our solutions slash people. The first two are you and the

(45:07):
rest of me. Okay, great, uh Ray Palmer's stupid brother Sidney,
sorry to steal that from you.And a random flashback to a past life.
And I have dwarf star alloy nicelydone, per Degaton killing baby Hitler
and beloved Canadian actor. Okay,okay, this brings up a thing from

(45:28):
me. Okay, are we gonnado winky cards like this? I think
we should. It's a week show, all right, Okay, okay,
okay, disagree, you can so, I'm fine with it. No,
I'm fine with it. Let's let'slet's go with it. I've been trying
to stay and I'm fine with legsof Tomorrow living in a world where there's

(45:52):
a beloved Canadian actor Juel state,I agree, Okay, let's leave it
Bingo Bingo. There's there's arrow slashflash references. Where do we feel I
say yes to both. Yeah,so there's definitely a narrow at reference.
He literally says Felicity and references theirrelationship in the past. Does he say

(46:13):
the word Felicity? He says,I guess Felicity must have hired him.
Oh, you're right, Okay,I thought you meant in reference too,
I knocked a girl up. Yeah. No, he doesn't say her name
when he talks about the pregnancy,but he does say her name after he
finds out about Sydney. Okay,Yeah, they do reference to our laps
and Central City and all that.So, like it makes sense to me

(46:34):
that we would include those. We'veconcluded other things for less, you know,
Okay, fair enough. We alsohave legend feed legend with with Mick
and Snart. We have a suitup obviously, everybody's suited up in this
wave Rider Brigg. We've got Mickin jail. Yeah, and a couple
DCD deep cuts in this episode.So it is a Bingo centric episode.

(46:55):
Yeah, it did very well.It's your turn to role Tricia I ready
to ready rolling for season. Doyou have the episode, guy? I
have the episode Guy, Awesome,here we go. It is four.
Oh okay, that is that isa favorite. It is a favorite of
the dice and rolling for episode twelvetwelve. That's not five twelve girl,

(47:19):
I got it. You got it? Oh my god, that was so
nice. I'm so happy you're theone that rolled it. Where you're talking
the eggplant, the Witch and theWardrobe, one of Tricia's favorite episodes of
all time, one of my favoriteepisodes, well I might be my favorite
episode of all time, and anepisode of two which I only just realize
what the title means, right,really, Yes, all this amazing insight

(47:45):
and more in the next episode.Should we talk about like that the season's
going to end eventually. Yes,I think we should let the listeners know
about our plans coming up. We'vedecided to add a little more structure to
our unstructured podcast, and we arecreating seasons of this show. Yes,
this is the weirdest thing that wecould have possibly said at the end of

(48:06):
an episode of this pretty much thispodcast. So what we are going to
do is for the next few weeksare going to be getting regular bi weekly
episodes of this podcast along with avery special surprise coming your way, which
we'll announce in the future. Andwe are going to be ending quote unquote
our season by giving you the seasonone finale. Yes, we're gonna We're

(48:27):
gonna cover legendary and that's I thinkhow we're going to do all seasons going
forward, where the you know,the season will start and end with that
season's premiere and finale exactly. Sowe're gonna we did this season one premiere
the pilot way back in the beginningseveral months ago, and we'll be doing
the season one finale as the endof sort of our first chunk of episodes,
right, and that'll be middle ofOctober. But then we do have

(48:52):
some specials essentially planned for the timebetween October and January when we'll start up
with with regular episodes against So we'regonna do we want to do, we
want to say these things, Let'sgo ahead, We'll commit to them.
Let's commits them right here. We'regonna be honest, we're not totally sure,
but November is going to be maybewe'll try to get a guest,
maybe we'll cover something, but we'llfind something to cover in the middle of

(49:14):
November. However, in October,the week before Halloween, we're going to
cover the Constantine NBC series exactly.I have never watched it before, right,
and I haven't watched it in avery long time. So that'll like
both of us are gonna have tobinge that and come in. We're just
gonna do one episode on it,but I think that'll be fine. I
think that'll be plenty. Yeah,and then the week of Bibo Day,

(49:38):
we are going to cover Bibo SavesChristmas, which I have never seen,
neither have I cool. I havethe video thanks to a fan online,
but I've I've never watched it,so I'm looking forward to doing that.
We're going to cover that as likebasically our Christmas special, and then we'll
be back sometime in January. Justtalking about this feels like it's eighteen years

(50:00):
from now. But then like seasontwo, we'll pick up in January and
go from there. So just lettingyou know, you know, you're gonna
have regular episodes till the middle ofOctober, and then we're gonna get a
little specially and then come back gunsablazing for a season two. That way,
it gives us a little bit ofa break, yep, a little
bit of a break, a littletime to bank episodes because you know,

(50:21):
as is typical with the podcast,we've lost our lead time for the most
part. We both had to havevacations. Yeah, we both had lives.
There's been vacations and honeymoons and COVIDand it's all it's all been a
mess, but it's all good andwe want to make sure that we're still
giving a good product and giving it, you know, reliably and letting the
listeners know what's going on. Sothat's eighteen minutes longer than it had to

(50:45):
be, but that's what's going tobe going on. So we're getting to
the end of season one. Butother way, thank you all for sticking
around, and can't wait to bringyou some of the special things that are
coming up. It should be veryfun. But in the meantime, Tricia,
this was fun. It was fun. Yeah, we've been making fun
of this episode, like since thebeginning. I know we're mean, but

(51:06):
I feel like again, I washarshest on this episode, but it's it's
a totally good watch. And Idid absolutely go into one eleven after this,
So you know, yeah, exactlyall right. Well, in the
meantime, thank you guys very muchfor listening to Always hold on to DC's
Legends Tomorrow. I remember, don'tcall us podcasters. We're legends. Always

(51:29):
hold on to DC's Legends of Tomorrowis produced by Zach Moore as part of
the Always hold on To podcast family. Listen to Zach's other great podcasts wherever
you're hearing this, and check outeven more podcast action on the Always hold
on to Smallville Patreon page. Youcan find more Legends goodness on social at
Legends of Always, and feel freeto send us an email at Legends of
Always at gmail dot com, hashtagsave a hot to clot and rate and

(51:52):
review us in app. Please dothat, please please please you beautiful nerd.
You thanks for listening. Perfect cool, cool, just under an hour

(52:19):
or too. How about that