September 27, 2023 ⢠53 mins
Ready to hear from a REAL Co-Captain?! We are honored to present an exclusive interview with Legends executive producer and co-showrunner Keto Shimizu! From her early playwriting to her time on the picket line, Keto shares her experiences as a creative in the television industry and how she became a defining voice in the Arrowverse. We cannot thank Keto enough for taking the time to join us back on the Waverider! Follow her on all the socials @ketomizu.
Follow us on socials @legendsofalways and send us an email at legendsofalways@gmail.com.
Matt Truex is a Warner Bros. Discovery employee. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are his own and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Warner Bros. Discovery.
Follow us on socials @legendsofalways and send us an email at legendsofalways@gmail.com.
Matt Truex is a Warner Bros. Discovery employee. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are his own and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Warner Bros. Discovery.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Okay, I'm good. You good, I am good. Oh, here
we go, making me nervous comingin, and welcome back to always hold
(00:28):
on to DC's Legends of Tomorrow.I'm one of your co captain's Matt true
X, and I'm your other cocaptain, Trisha Annas, and we have
a very special episode for you today. I can't believe this episode is happening
at the end of our season one. This felt like something to our guest
we've said early on, like whatwho's Who's the biggest guest we could get?
And you were always the top ofthe list. So welcome Legends of
(00:52):
Tomorrow. Co show runner, coeverything Ketoshimizu, Hi, thanks, hi,
thank you so much for taking thetime. I attribute this all to
Puppet Ray at Comic Con, butwe made a very good impression. That
was Yeah. The however many hoursthat took to make We're all worth it.
(01:14):
I can't tell you how you know, I'm out here in Los Angeles,
were involved in the business, blahblah blah. I don't get starstruck
by actors. When you and likeall the crew of Legends walked into that
panel that I was at, thatthat mark Guggenheim was a part of I
had a moment of like, ohmy god, I've run into a nest
of them, Like how did thishappen? So we were we were we
(01:34):
were so excited to see you andto see that beautiful puppet and everything.
It really warmed our hearts. Well, thank you, thank you. Obviously.
Well we'll get into your time inthe arrow verse and whatnot, but
if we could start early on,we actually have a lot in common.
Jersey boy that went to Emerson College. Yeah, but but so so I
(01:57):
wonder if I could answer this way. But question one, when did you
get the show biz bug? Wereyou always kind of interested in writing from
the outset or did that kind ofevolve over time for you? I think
I always wanted to be a storytellerof one kind or another, and it
really started for me in visual art. My father was a painter and an
(02:20):
art historian, and I learned howto paint from him as a very little
girl. And I was always drawingpictures and making up stories about the weird
characters and monsters I was coming upwith. And I eventually sort of transitioned
from doing that to writing little stories, writing little novels. And at the
(02:44):
same time, my mother, who'san ethn musicologist, had me really immersed
in a music community. And soI was composing music, and I was
singing and performing and you know,traveling the world. And I've kind of
found filmmaking. Because I was ateenager, I was trying to figure out
what I wanted to do, whatsort of art I knew I wanted to
(03:05):
be an artist of some sort.I didn't really know which medium I wanted
to really stick with. I lovedvisual arts, I loved music, I
loved you know, writing, Iloved all these things. And when I
came to realize was, you know, filmmaking really kind of combines all the
arts. It's really like you kindof to be a really good filmmaker,
you kind of have to understand orat least to be able to speak the
(03:28):
language of all of these different artforms. And I was like, that's
how I draw and all the artisticthings I love to do, I'll become
a filmmaker. And that was awonderful revelation had that. I got that
at about fifteen years old, andthat became my driving force throughout high school.
Was learning more about moviemaking. Iwent to like a filmmaking camp I
(03:52):
started. At that point, Iwas I was doing like comic books and
playwriting, which was a sort ofanother way to sort of fulfill my movie
bug, even if I don't reallyhave the ability to go off and make
movies yet. Sure, but thestorytelling thing and the story anything, and
you know, playing with these differentmediums. And I got into our media
(04:14):
rather I yeah, and I becamefocused on, you know, finding a
film school that I really wanted toget into and really honed in on Emerson.
That was one that very early onwas a standout for me. And
going to the campus and meeting allthese really passionate, passion and driven individuals,
I was like, oh, theseare my people. Not only are
(04:35):
they you know, the weirdos whomake their own clothes and dye their hair
crazy colors and have all these piercingsand stuff, which I had all those
things and did all those things.It was like they were also these people
who have known since they were teenagersor kids that this is the thing they
want to do and this is whatthey're gonna focus on in college. Like
(04:55):
I didn't want the typical college experienceof you know, being in a big
campus and yeah, messing around andlike you know, dating a bunch of
people and going to wild parties.I was like, I did that,
Like that was for me. LikeI did a lot of partying in high
school, and I was like,I want to now do the thing that
I'm really passionate about. And Ifound that the community at Emerson was the
(05:16):
same. They were all the weirdof were really driven and excited to be
there to hone their craft, toget better and to build their community.
So that was kind of a donedeal for me, and I'm really glad
that I got in. And uhyeah, So to answer your question,
I guess I've I've had a drivein me to be a person that brings
(05:38):
people together through adventures and stories,and it's you know that the format of
doing that has changed throughout the years, but since film school and beyond,
it's been you know, TV filmthat's okay. So like obviously at an
early age you're saying, you know, plays and in comics and whatnot,
(05:59):
you like this is always the questionthat that kind of haunts me, Like
do you remember the first script forwhatever it play? Comic movie, whatever
it was that you finished and gaveyou that moment of like, oh I
could do this, Like I canI can tell this from start to finish.
I had a play that I wroteI think I was sixteen, and
(06:19):
it was part of the Vermont Iwas in Vermont at the time, the
Vermont Playwrights Festival Young Playwrights Festival,and my play got selected to be performed
by professional actors and like a nightof you know, celebrating these young playwrights
and watching the performers, like watchingtheir rehearsal and seeing the director work with
(06:46):
them and then watching you know,my words come to life, and like
that really was It was so excitingand it just felt so right. I
was like, oh yeah, likethey're they're getting into it, they're getting
in their characters, they're loving thisdialogue. You know, they're really playing
with it. And I was like, this is the best feeling in the
world. And it really made methink like I can do this and I
(07:09):
will continue to do this. Anduh, while I didn't stick with playwriting
per se, you know, theyou know, the magic of writing things
that then go into other people's handsand get britt brought to life by actors
has been has has never gotten old. Yeah, we'll be a recurring theme.
(07:31):
Yeah, exactly, It's just stillit still does feel like magic when
it all comes together. Cool.I feel like, pretty soon we're gonna
have to tell Emerson they need topay us for the amount of times I
know this is getting sick. Wehad Dan Park on too, and it
was like during the conversation that werealized like, oh god, we might
have had clauses together like this iscan you can you talk a little bit
(07:54):
about, you know, joining TheCape something that was an early Superhero show.
I feel like, what was thatexperience? Your first time in a
writer's room? That was my firsttime in a writer's room. Yeah.
I got into that room largely duethe fact that I had done the Writers
on the Verge program that fall,and The Cape was a show that NBC
(08:15):
had been developing, and the directorof the Writers on the Verge Program,
Karen Horn, was very aware ofthat show and had been in you know,
she was really vigilant about being incontact with showrunners of shows that she
felt like for potential matches for peoplewho were in her program. And she
knew right away because of my passionfor Batman and for comic book characters in
(08:39):
general, but particularly Batman. Like, my essay to get in writers on
the Verge was about how much andhow meaningful the Batman animated series was in
my childhood and how it made mewant to be a storyteller, which is
true like it. And she reallyloved that show too, so she were
like, she was like, ohmy gosh, there's this girl like she
she loves the best and she,you know, it's very passionate about this
(09:01):
genre. So when The Cape wascoming out, She's like, oh my
gosh, Ketto has to be onthe Cape. Ketto has to be on
the Cape. And I was luckyenough that, you know, ultimately I
did end up staff on the Capeafter a very tumultuous staffing season, and
that's a whole other story, butultimately I did land there as the staff
writer, and the experience was amazing. Like the room, I was so
(09:24):
scared and going into that room.It was the first time I'd ever been
in a writer's room. Whereas youknow, a lot of people who become
staff writers, a lot of themgo up through the you know, the
assistant line, you know, theyso they are a writer's PA and then
you know, a script coordinator oryou know, or show runners assistant or
(09:45):
and then a writer's assistant and thenyeah, you know, they get their
break and they get to be onstaff. I had none of that training.
So I had my experience on writerson the verge, and I had
my a couple of years as anassistant in post production and you know,
so I had worked in post productionoffices on features, feature feature films mostly,
(10:05):
But yeah, I was I wasnot at all prepared. Yeah,
were you was actually going to belike in a room, Sorry to interrupt
you. Were you the only babywriter on that show too? Baby writers?
Wow? So there's no solidarity there, you know, like no one
else in it with you. Butit really was, like I found And
(10:26):
I was really nervous because because Iwas so green, because I was so
young. I was twenty five,so I was like really like fresh out
of the gate, yeah, andhad I just didn't have any of the
underlying experience that most staff writers havegoing into a room like this. And
I was going into a room withwriters who'd been doing this primarily for like
(10:46):
decades, like these are really seasoned, really accomplished genre writers and both TV
and features, And I was sonervous. I was such a wreck.
But what I found when I wentinto the room and like finally and got
to like actually know the showrunners andthese other writers, everyone was so lovely
(11:07):
and so welcoming, so nurturing,so kind, so willing to mentor and
to give me and you know,give me advice, give me tips,
like you know, pointing to pointme in the right direction. They're like,
hey, cattle, because you're likeyou're not a super experienced picture yet,
and that's okay, why don't yougo right on the boards. And
(11:28):
I was like, oh, okay, I'll write on the board. Sure.
And suddenly I became an invaluable assetbecause I had good handwriting for the
boards. I could keep things organized. I could like write and rewrite things
over and over and it again movedaround and uh and I was always like
a cheerleader. I was like alwayslike got really excited about things, and
you know that the energy and thenmy ability to like do that was kind
(11:52):
of and that's kind of what theyneeded for me, was someone keep the
energy up and keep them organized byby writing all these things on them words.
So I was like, great,that was excellent advice. From a
super senior writer who really knew whatshe was talking about and be like,
hey, this is how you're goingto be useful. I hope we're not
picking at a scab with this.I mean, like it's your first show.
(12:13):
And then obviously it did not lastvery long at all. Was that
that must have been heartbreaking? Itwas? It was, And like I
said, I mean, I wasn'tthe only it wasn't the only like lower
there was. There was one otherwriter, Robbie Thompson, who was now
a showrunner as well, but hewas a story editor I think on it,
or I might have been a storyeditor. So he had done a
couple of shows before that. Sohe and I were the ones who are
(12:35):
like we shared an office. Wewere sort of like, you know,
the the kids of the group again. But again he had much more experience
than I had, and he wasvery again, very kind, very nurturing.
And it was sad. It wassad, you know when when it
all ended, because we went onthe real whole roller coaster of an experience
(12:56):
of like a show that NBC atthe time was so excited for. They
were getting so hyped up. Theywere plastering ads all over the city like
took it to comic Con, likeit's the whole thing. And then,
you know, after the first coupleepisodes there, like viewership plummeted and suddenly
it was like fairly soon after that, it was like, oh, our
(13:18):
outline, they didn't give us money. Notes on a like are like,
oh, they don't really care anymorebecause they're like, oh crap, like
you know, and I didn't.I had never experienced any of this,
so I, you know, wason this show that had so much,
so much love and anticipation and joyand excitement and hope around to something that
(13:39):
where it was like, oh no, we're in the end days, right,
You're instantly the red headed step child. Yeah, like yeah, and
and realizing along with like these moreexperienced writers who are like, oh no,
like any day we're going to getthe call, like and you know,
I was just like, what's like, oh no, but so far
this is my first show. Ilooked so much like what I mean,
(14:00):
like, this family's going to breakapart, like why. It was just
such a devastating experience. So don'tthey know how much fun we're having this
so much fun and the crew wasamazing and we were shooting not just in
la but like on the same lotas the writer's room, which was really
really cool because like during my lunchbreak, I could just go down to
(14:22):
set and like see what they weredoing there. The actors were so kind
and collaborative. It was like itwas all the wonderful things. And of
course my one of the shore runnersat the time, was like, it's
like, that's what always happens whenyou love the people show, it doesn't
last. I don't say that,don't say that. So yeah, it
was. It was very It wasvery sad, and of course, as
(14:45):
the baby writer of the group comingout of it, I was like,
oh no, was this a fluke? Am I never going to get staffed
again? Like this just you know, luck of the draw just so happened.
There was this Batman like show andthere's a girl obsessed with Batman like
right, And I was, no, I'm never gonna it's that's it,
that's it. That was And thankfullythat was not the case. But there
(15:07):
was definitely a couple months there whereI was going to a lot of meetings
and not getting any jobs, andI was like, oh no, it's
over already already. I'm twenty sixand I'm already washed out TV. Don't
they know how well I can writeon a board? Yeah, So I
mean you've you've got a lot ofthings. You got being human in between.
(15:28):
Yeah, I was a great showthat was like that was also one
of those magic in the bottle showswhere everyone was firing on all cylinders.
We had the best show owners,the best other writers. I was collaboring
with an incredible cast, like justdelightful, the best at working hours,
like it was. It was amazing. And that was another show where like
(15:52):
I got there and all these otherwriters were like most shows aren't like this,
Keto just so you're getting spoiled outthere, like they called the rest
of the writing world gen pop.They're like, the show was over,
we're all going back in the genpop and it is not like this.
This is like the fancy place wherewe're really good meals and really good hours
(16:15):
and you know, she don't tellanybody that it's actually an absolute joy to
come into work every day and workwith these lovely humans and laugh our asses
off and spill our guts on thetable and you know, just right again
a show that we were all soproud of and it was, Yeah,
it was. It was such agood experience and I learned so much from
(16:37):
being in that room and getting toproduce episodes up in Montreal and all that
that it really did prepare me forwhat came next, which was Arroverse for
season obviously transitions. Yeah, yeah, you've mentioned it a few times.
You're you're a big Batman fan,the assumed DC and Jet Like are you
seeking this out? Once you seethat Arrows up and running, Like,
(17:00):
where did that kind of come up? It wasn't. It was strange.
It it came about in kind ofan odd way where I I knew that
Arrow was being developed, and Iwas sort of like, wow, that's
a challenge. Like I was sortof I was sort of one of the
doubters at first. I was like, man, like Green Arrows, that's
a tough character to develop, Likeooo, all right, good luck.
Like I didn't really know anybody involved, so I didn't really have a horse
(17:23):
in the race certain thing. Iwas just like, all right, green
watching, I guess it goes.And then obviously season one came out and
I was I was on being Humanat the time, and I was like,
oh, you're doing something kind ofcool. They're like, all right,
you know, kudos to them.They're they're doing great. And I
(17:45):
happened to have a meeting over atWarner Brothers while I was in between seasons
of Being Human. I was stillin my contract for Being Human, but
we were on hiatus and I hadthis great meeting with an executive over there,
and she brought up Arrow and Iand you know, I was sort
of like, yeah, that's great, you know, in this sort of
way you do in a meeting.I hadn't really watched much of it,
(18:07):
but I was sort of like,yeah, it's awesome. I mean,
we did the Cape a couple ofyears ago and kind of trying to do
what they're doing on Arrow, andI love to see that they're doing it
really successfully on Arrow. Like goodfor them. Yeah. But in the
meantime, you know, if sheknew that I was really passionate about the
DC universe and you know that Batmanwas a huge passion of mine, and
(18:29):
so she recommended me for staffing forseason two, and they were they had
done some rotating of the staff andthey needed someone like me to come in
there. And I wasn't looking fora job at the time because I was
happily staffed on Thinking and I lovedit there and I had no intention of
leaving. It would have been mylast year, our last year on my
(18:51):
current contract over at sci Fi,and but I was like whatever, I'll
take the meeting, Like the showrunners want to meet with me. Great.
I've never had showrunners like actively seekingme out to meet me. Was
like great. And it turned outthey had both talked to people I had
worked with on The Cape, youknow they all had and also Being Humans,
(19:14):
so there were people who are like, not only did we love your
writing, we also checked with youknow, with your friend Kristinus over Being
Human, We checked with Tom Wheelerlike the Cape, and they all say
that you're great, And I waslike what what? And it was an
a strange showrunner meeting for me becauseall the show runner meetings I had had
up to that point where me reallytrying to sell myself as like someone who
(19:38):
would be great for your room,showing so much enthusiasm for the material and
like, you know, trying topitch ideas and trying to like connect personally
with the with the showrunners and reallypresent who I was. And in this
meeting, it was them trying tosell Arrow to me, like they were
trying to sell the show to me, and I knew had that for where
(19:59):
they were like, here, thisis what we're doing, this is what
we're going to do in season two, like you know, and I was
and I was excited and I wasnerding out with them and like you know,
but I yeah, it was verystrange. And I came out of
that meeting and I was like,I have this strange feeling like I just
met my new bosses. I justcame out of that me and I was
(20:21):
like, I think that's where I'mgoing to work next. But I was
like, wait a minute, Idon't want to leave Being Human. Think
Human hadn't even gotten picked up yet, like for the fourth season. So
I was like, God, whatdo I do? And so after calling
my agents, I called my bossI'm Being Human and I was like,
good, well, basically you know, these the Arrow bosses. As I
(20:41):
was leaving, they were like,look, we want you to join our
staff. We want you but ifthe first meeting, yeah, but they
but they were saying, we needit's going to take some complicated maneuvers to
get you out of your sci ficontract. So we now if that is
worth us pursuing. And I alsolike, I think so again, because
(21:06):
I thought that was like I thinkthese are the people I'm going to be
working for and next you know.But yeah, so I called my agents
and then I called my boss overbeing Human and explained the situation, and
she she knew me really well.She knew how passionate I was about this
universe, and she was just likeshe's like, go just go, like
(21:27):
absolutely, I will. I willdeal with Sci Fi get them to release
you from the contract, like justthis is a great opportunity to do it.
So she was so lovely about itand totally had my back as Arrow
poached me. Yeah, I wasgonna say, but it's so nice that
she didn't make it a custody battlenow and she has, you know,
(21:48):
she and her husband, Jeremy Sothat was Anna Friakie and Jeremy Carver have
been nothing but lovely since since youknow I've seen. Yeah, so obviously
like your Arrow Verse career took offfrom there, but early on, like
you know, they poached you,like you said, what do you think
it was that you brought to thestaff for season two of Arrow? Like
(22:11):
what what was it that they sawyou that that they wanted to add to
the room. I think they reallywanted someone who was really knowledgeable and passionate
about the DC universe, who hadseen and uh, you know, vetted
(22:32):
like a lot of different interpretations ofthe DC universe and could sort of pick
the best pieces of what's been doneand like bring it into the Arrow verse
and uh and really bring you know, characters off the page into in a
(22:52):
like a really cool, flashy,visceral, exciting way. And they saw
that both in my sample and thenway I talked about characters from you know,
the Green Narrow comics, and theway the conversation that we had about
you know, I had questions aboutlife, what's gonna on, what's happening
with Roy Harper, you know,like and they're they're able, They're like,
oh, we're thinking of doing this, and I was like, that's
(23:15):
awesome, and you know, justhaving like a really you know, a
conversation with them that was coming fromthe same well of love and you know,
understanding of this world and the potentialto bring more characters in and too.
(23:36):
You know, at that time,we were really the only DC show
on the air, which meant thatwe had access to a lot of characters
because there weren't all these other shows. Once the other show started to moping
up, it was like, no, you can't do that character. No
you can't do that character, becauselike we got to like save the characters.
But there was a time in likeseason two where we were just going
hog while. We were just like, yeah, that they're on this person
(23:56):
and this person is this person,and I was like, no one was
telling us we couldn't, you know, They're all like great, great,
And then suddenly it was like,oh no, Nelly had the Flash.
Oh no, Nollie have Supergirl,Like I can't do that anymore. But
there was this this sort of wildWest period and just throwing everybody in there.
So that was really that was reallyfun and I was really a delight
(24:18):
to be a part of. ButI think also they wanted someone who could
write soap, who could write areally good action sequence, and who could
build a world, and like theseare things I got from my sample,
But they knew that that you know, I'd i'd bring uh bring the characters
(24:40):
to life in a way that theywanted them to. Yeah. I had
the good fortune of seeing the panelthat you were on a comic con on
that Saturday, and you talked abouta sample there. Is that the same
one that you're talking about here,Like, is this your your kind of
spec pilot that you wrote? Yeah, yeah, which was you could say
(25:00):
better than me, but it soundedlike crazy sci fi concept. It's a
crazy genre mashup of horror, Westernscience fiction and you know soap. Yeah,
a big old like Monster Hunton action, crazy adventure with you know,
(25:21):
a bisexual character at the center ofit who's sort of torn between worlds and
lovers. And yeah, it's great, right everything you got yea, Yes,
basically that's it's it's it's very muchmy heart out on the on the
page there in that sample. Soit's it's been very useful in sort of
giving people an idea of what goeson inside my brain. Sounds like my
cup of tea. Absolutely, sojumping a little bit to the good stuff
(25:45):
for us. Anyway, is canyou talk a little about, you know,
how you ended up joining Legends?Sure, well, I so,
I spent three years on Arrow,during which I got a lot of producing
experience. I got to go upto Canada a lot, I got to
you know, just because of theschedule we were. We were, you
know, in production at the sametime as we were in post production at
(26:07):
the same time as we were breakingand writing episodes. So it was this
wonderful opportunity as a as a youknow, mid level writer at that which
is what I was at the time, to really get my hands diurdy in
all aspects of the process. Andso I learned so much and uh got
to a point in that room whereI realized, there's not a lot of
(26:30):
growth from me here anymore. LikeI just knew that, you know,
there were there was the leader sortof the future leadership of Arrow had been
tapped, and I full support ofthat. I was like, I want
that Shorts to run the show.Like I was like, she's great,
And I was like, but Iwhere do I fit in that? You
(26:52):
know, I don't want to getaway. I don't want to be seen
as like competition, And but Idid want to be a leader, Like
I wanted to be a leader ofa room, having had so much experience
now and really feeling like I coulddo that. So I was pregnant at
the time with my first child,and I still wanted to be somewhere safe
(27:14):
so I was kind of torn.I was like, I could leave their
verse and try and find another jobin another place where I could have more
growth, But as a new mom, that's going to be really hard to
manage being in a new place witha new community of writers while dealing with
a newborn. Like, oh,maybe I just renew my contract here and
like just deal with it and justyou know, just settle in, settle
(27:37):
in, you know, And Ididn't really like that plan. I had
a conversation with Mark Guggenheim and WendyMiracle, who are at the time running
Arrow, and they wanted to knowwhat I wanted to do. They were
like they knew it was my lastmy last year on the contract, and
they're just like, hey, look, we love you. We would love
for you to stay here, andthis would be, you know, a
(27:59):
great place to be a new mom. Like we'll take care of you like
you little you know, you're you'restill such a valuable asset to this room.
And then Mark was like, orwe have a need over it Legends
of Tomorrow for season two to havesomeone like you really come in and you
know, help basically reinvent the show. And I hadn't really watched Legends at
(28:23):
that time. All I mean thatit's sort of you know, it was
such a strange concept to me.Yeah, buzzy. But I was like,
Okay, now we have another sistershow. It's like this collection of
characters from our show and the Flash, and and I knew the process of
how it had been brought together,and I was like, weird, Like
(28:47):
they're going to a comic con withlike a sizzle reel, Like none of
these actors about showrunners don't Like Philhad no idea what the show was about.
Here, I don't know, we'regoing to figure it out. So
I was like that was I wassort of like, I don't know what's
going on here. But when Marksaid that that, you know, he's
like, we have a need overthere. We would love free to come
(29:07):
over. And so I was like, let me think about it. And
so I thought about it, andI was like, well, here's a
really interesting opportunity. Here's a showthat is still trying to figure out what
it is. I have an ideawhat it could be and what I think
it should be. Having been sucha huge fan of Firefly, I was
like, I think it needs tobe more like that. Like, that's
(29:30):
the show where it's like a foundfamily, a bunch of misfits having these
romps, like gotta make it funnierlike it got you know, because I
didn't did watch watch the show andwas like, Okay, when they have
these moments of humor, it comesto life. That's when I lean you
know. When they have these reallyemotional stories, that's when I lean in.
When it gets too much gobblygook about, you know, just really crazy
(29:53):
plots and darkness and all that,I was like, that's that doesn't work
for this show. And and soI then talked to Mark and I was
like, hey, look, Iam interested in joining Legends. However,
I would like to join it asa COEP and I would like to lead
the room. And he was like, I love that idea. Let me
(30:15):
talk to Greg re LENTI let metalk to Phil. So he took it
up the ladder, talked to hiscoachhow Runner at the time, and they
they made it happen. And soI moved over and suddenly I was I
was a leader mom, which wascrazy, but I was, you know
I And so from then I gotto I got to run the room,
and it was It was wonderful andit was exactly what I needed, which
(30:38):
was to be in a safe spacebecause it was safe. It was still
part of the family, but itwas a whole new opportunity, a whole
new sandbox, and there was thiswonderful transformation that the show was ready to
go through. And having myself andyou know, the all the new team
(31:00):
that was what was brought in reallyuh and and also being given sort of
the freedom from Warner Brothers to reinventthe show really made for a a fun
experience and a very fulfilling creative experience, even in just that first year,
as we were transitioning from you know, a pretty dour and serious and you
(31:26):
know, with these sort of highconcept issues to something that was really about
these people and the found family andyou know, misfits finding their place and
time adventures and this sense of uh, you know, just just being subversive
and having a lot of fun,but always holding on to the emotional stories
(31:51):
and really leading with what we youknow, what we had called on air
of the Emojo, you know,the emotional joke. I think it's actually
kind of funny to hear you talkabout, you know, this idea of
first of all, you're coming fromprobably the most serious show in the ear
overse and trying to inject less ofthat into into Legends. But also I
think it's funny to talk about,like, you know, moving away from
(32:12):
like high concepts things and like thisthe sort of gobbles the good of a
plot, But in doing that,it's sort of like injected Legends with just
insanity, which I think is alsoa certain type of high concepts. I'm
curious how you balance as a writerthe serious emotional moments that the show has,
which I'd go on about constantly onthis podcast, and the humor that
(32:34):
makes us all like love watching itevery week. For us, it was
really we had I mean, itwas kind of impossible not to have both
because we had people in our roomwho were who were both. You know,
we had people who were who couldeasily switch from talking about a very
serious and personal, you know,story that we were we were getting into,
(32:58):
getting into the meat of, andthen tossing a joke there that would
just have us all in stitches andwe're like, absolutely, that's how you
undercut that and make that, youknow, make it work. And then
we had people in our room whowere just like the funniest people over who
were just like just there, whowould just throw out these crazy ideas and
we'd be like, actually, yes, you know. And then we had
people who were like me who tendedto be more focused on, you know,
(33:22):
push it, keeping the trains movingand making sure we had really sound
structure and making sure that the emotionalstories had at that beginning middle and like
really keeping that cohesion of the emotionalstory, which is always like the glue
of any story we were telling.And then the romp and the adventure and
the and the zaniness, all ofthat really came out of the emotional story
(33:45):
and really came from like the mishmashof differences that we had in our and
our cast and of our characters,because that's where we could find that those
moments that would be uncomfortable but likehilariously uncomfortable, and those opportunities for that
totally unexpected thing that would just beyou know again, have have us in
(34:09):
stitches in the room and then ofcourse eventually end up on your screens reaction
to you know, belly laugh.But then you know, a moment later,
you're tearing up because there's something reallypoignant and lovely that happens at all
of that, But it was alwaysreally important for us that we led with
character and emotion, and then thefun just kind of came out of it
(34:34):
because we as a room all we'rekind of goofballs, and we loved that
surprise, and we loved those unexpectedturns, and we loved being able to
undercut the seriousness of anything that wedid with that moment of levity. It
just it was so important to usto in order for all of those pieces
to work together, because if wewere too emotional all the time, if
(34:57):
we were too you know, itjust sague or whatever. It's just didn't
it wasn't right. It wasn't rightfor us, it wasn't right for the
show, It wasn't satisfying for us, or to come up with or to
write. It always had to havethat little bit of undercutting or or that
surprising version of something so that itwas something that you hadn't seen before.
Yeah, So it's we talked aboutall the time. It's the narrative whiplash
(35:21):
of the show that it was justso addicting and like hooked both of us
that we spend way too much ofour free time doing this you know so
much when you're you're coming into thisroom, you're reinventing this show, and
it's the first time you've led awriter's room. Like just on a practical
level, what are things that you'rebringing from other experience that that you are
(35:43):
introducing or you know, starting toimplement in the Legends room to kind of
change things up, you know,for the better hopefully. Yeah. For
me, it was really about leadingwith the emotional story. And I can't
speak really to what the King processwas like in season one. Obviously I
wasn't there, but and even anarrow like this wasn't really how we didn't
(36:06):
until the end. And it's funnybecause when I was on Being Human,
I was taught the Berlante method ofbreaking story, and being went Anna Frickey
and Jeremy Carver and other people whohad like come up through these other shows
had learned from Greg b Lante waslike this method where if you have say,
a cast of three characters, whichBeing Human did, each one of
(36:29):
them gets a story. There's anystory, B story, C story.
In our case, it was likea Sally story and Aidan story and a
Josh story, and we you know, each one would get broken out as
like a beginning, middle, andend. Here's where they start, here's
what happens, here's what's complicated,and then ultimately, this is where it
resolves. We'd have that for eachcharacter, and then you would do a
smush or you would take all thepieces of those different stories and you would
(36:51):
put them into the act breaks,and then after that you would flesh it
out and it would become a whole. You know, you'd have transitions from
scene to scene, and you havebasically what's almost a mini outline on the
board by the time you were done. And then after that a writer would
then take that, you know,that fleshed out board, turned it into
(37:12):
an outline, turn into script,and so on and so forth. That
was the Berlante method of breaking story. I come to arrow after doing this
on Being Human, and that isout the door. No one's doing anything
on the Blante show. This isgone, Like all right, what's happening
in the first scene? All right, let's see we're wait, what what
is going on here? What isthis chaos? Like? How are we?
(37:35):
I thought I learned the what butit was just it was season two.
It was like they're coming out ofvery chaotic season one on Arrow,
it was just people were just tryingto get things done. It was like
the twenty three of these things,now I gotta do twenty three more.
And so it was just sort oflike seated their pants, like we gotta
you know, we gotta get beatson the board. But I was like,
this isn't. This isn't when Iwas taught what's going on here,
(37:58):
and Beth Schwartz and the Miracle,who also had come up through the Brolanti
method, were like, wait,no for me, like just go with
it. We'll try and fix itlater. And then by the time I
left, when Wendy had more powerand Beth head more power, was like
we finally got back to that,finally grow finally went back to the Brolante
(38:19):
method. And then I left andI took the Brolante method over too.
Let's this is how we're going tostart breaking stories, your guys, and
and we did, and it helpedmake the process much more focused and more
efficient, I think, and againreally focused on that emotional story for whatever
we were doing, was like,what are the emotional stories? And then
what the plot? The plot issort of should service the emotional story.
(38:44):
Not the other way around, youknow, was really because the driving force.
Eventually, also, you get theco showrunner title with Phil, So
how does that how does that kindof change your day to day and like
what is what is the most surprisingpart of that for you? Were there
things of that that that you didn'tsee coming or we're excited to get into.
(39:05):
I was really excited and really readyto get the title because for a
couple of years before I got theofficial title, I was kind of co
running it like with Phil, LikePhil was still very much like the show
runner, but he had let meinto the process in a very uh,
you know, in a partnership kindof way. He really uh he started
(39:30):
bringing me in on all the youknow, all the bigger meetings and and
helping having conversations with me about issuesthat were going on with the cast or
the crew. And I was onall the sort of like broader you know,
conversation calls with the network and thestudio that you know, I was
an EP, so like, youknow, he's come in on this stuff.
(39:52):
But it was for the purpose oftraining me to take to really kind
of and officially be a co runner. And Phil is a very generous showrunner.
He is someone who likes to collaborate. He's not someone who like covets
power and holds onto it or covetscommunication because it he thinks it gives him
(40:14):
more power. He's very much likeI would rather have a conversation with another
EP about this and figure it out, you know. He rather share that
than hold on to it himself.So he was a great person in those
years before I officially became his corunner to to learn from and to have
(40:34):
more of those opportunities to know whatwas going on behind the scenes and to
help solve those problems. And duringthat time, I also did the showrunner
Training program over with with the WritersGuild. That was that was a really
wonderfully eye opening experience and I learnedso much from that, and I brought
some of those lessons in here.I was like, hey, Phil,
(40:58):
like, why don't we adapt thisthing that I learned from the show runner
training program? And he was like, okay, you know, and we
did, and it did help makethings more efficient and help, you know,
keep us on track, you know, schedule wise, you know.
And and so yeah, when Ifinally did get the official title, it
(41:20):
more felt like recognition for what Ihad already been doing for a couple of
years, and something I had wantedto get a couple of years before.
But there was a whole michigas withlike my development and all of this stuff,
Like they they would have wanted meto cease all of my development if
I were to get that kosher Runnertitle with Phil like in those pretty sures,
(41:44):
And I was like, I'm notwilling to do that, So I
didn't get the bump, you know, so those frustrating things. But then
finally I was in a position wherelike I could demand the title and say,
and you're not going to stop itfrom developing, and there we are
cool. Good for you, Like, that's awesome. Obviously we're huge fans
(42:08):
of the show. Obviously we talkabout this all the time though, where
we have favorite characters, people welike more than others. But there's not
a single like leads Legend if youwill, that is introduced over the show
that we dislike that that that youknow, we were just like, yeah,
I was never really a fan ofthem. I'm glad they didn't stay
around for so long or whatever itis. That seems like an incredible thing
(42:30):
to pull off, especially given justthe numbers that you have on legends,
So like, what do you attributethat type of character writing too, And
like, please tell me it's someformula that you figured out that you're that
you're willing to share a formula forus. I think it's just that no
one was ever one dimensional. Likethat was the thing that was always really
(42:52):
important to us, Like, noone is ever one thing. Like even
our worst villain would have a softspot, and even are like silliest character
would have an underlying, you know, layer that was really serious and poignant.
You know. So it was alwaysreally important to us to have those
surprising turns of where you think acharacter is one thing and then you're like,
(43:14):
oh, that's a new angle,Like I didn't realize that that makes
me like that person so much morebecause I realized they're complicated, they're reel,
they're you know, they do havethese contradictions within themselves, and that's
what people are, you know,no one is ever, no one is
ever just one thing, And thatwas always really fun to write. But
(43:35):
also it was really important that wecast people in these roles who brought that
truth to the character and who couldplay all those different angles and be really
funny, also be kind of scary, and also be you know, really
loving, and you know, prettymuch every character kind of had to play
all these things, and so wewere really blessed with just monumental talent,
(44:00):
you know who came to our show, and we're able to roll with big
swings. You know. They werealways game for whatever new angle we threw
at them. We're like, oh, by the way, here's this little
nugget of your character that we hadn'treally gotten into yet. And they're just
like, okay, you know,great, I will find you know,
the truth of that in my performance. And they always did, and I
(44:22):
think that helped pretty much everyone wehad on that show really feel like someone
you would care about, you know, someone that you would like to hang
out with, and and someone whofelt real, you know, even in
the zany situation. It was likeagain, that truth, the human truth,
was always something we were looking for. Yeah, very cool. So
normally this is you know, arewrapping it up. This is when we
(44:43):
would normally go full nerd, askyou all these specifics and fan theories and
our legends lightning around. But we'renot going to do that because of the
w g A strike, which wementioned at the beginning of the show,
based on like when we release theshow, it's probably going to be near
day one hundred and fifty or soby the time this comes out. Hopefully
it'll be over, You'll have newtraction, will be getting back to work
and having a lot of fun.That is our that is our hope.
But you know, we did wantto ask you a little bit about your
(45:06):
experience there and what's it been likefor you to be on the front lines
of this strike. It has beenIt's been a lot of things. You
know. It's been wonderful to reconnectwith my writing community, to see people
out there who, you know,see people from the cape, see people
(45:27):
from being humans, see people fromarrows, you know, just see people
who are part of my writer's room, families of past and getting to reconnect
and to you know, just learnabout what their lives are like now.
These are people I used to spendhours and hours within a room, and
you know, they would come inand tell me about what their daughters were
doing that now and I'm like,no, your daughters are in college.
(45:49):
Oh what's happening there. That's beenwonderful, that's been so lovely and and
also just meeting and talking with otherwriters who are we're all in this really
hard situation, should together but together, and like just feeling that such a
strong sense of solidarity and community,and and knowing that like, I'm not
(46:09):
alone, really not alone in thisfight or in the struggle, or in
this sort of mild depression that Ifeel like most of us are in right
now where they're like how long isthis going to go on? We're all
stressed out, We're all worried aboutour finances and our mortgages and our children
and groceries and bills and all that, And also feeling really tapped out creatively,
(46:35):
like yes, I should have writtensomething in the last three months.
I haven't, you know, Ijust can't. It's like I'm my well
is not there right now. I'mon the picket lines like three times a
week, and on the other dayswhen I'm not, I have to do
stuff around the house because my husbandhas gone back to work this summer to
try and help, and like it'sme, I'm now the mom who has
(46:58):
to do all the pickups in thedrop and you still got to get dinner
on the table and got to doall the grocery shopping and all, you
know. So it's you know thatthere is there is time, and I
could be doing it, but Itry, have tried, and it's really
hard. So I'm like trying toforgive myself for not writing a novel or
writing a feature or something during thistime. And what's been great is that,
(47:20):
like I go out on the lineand I'm like, oh, I'm
not haven't written anything, and likeeveryone around me is like, god,
me neither. It's not it's notjust me who cannot write right now concentrate
because we're like creatively tapped out becausewe're all so stressed out. I was
like, Okay, thank goodness,I'm not the one who's like slacking off
and falling behind in this really intensemoment of our careers. So it's yeah,
(47:45):
being out there is wonderful and awfuland you know, just full of
strength just seeing the numbers. It'sone. It's so great to be out
there and to have all these otherpeople and sag now to just bolstering our
lines, like it's just it feelsgood. It feels right because it is
(48:06):
the right thing to do. Whatthe companies are doing to us is absolutely
wrong. They are one hundred percentof bad guys and all of this,
and people know it. And itfeels good that to have the support of
people outside the industry, Like everyoneI talked to are just like, go
get them, you know, andI'm like, wow, Like last strike,
hardly anybody outside of Hollywood understood whatwas going on, sure, but
they feel like people really understand andthey really get the issues. And it's
(48:29):
been more it's more accessible because peopleare posting on their you know, to
their personal audiences and social media feesthat did not exist back then. It
was like Twitter was like a verynew thing and people didn't use it that
way. So it's and now it'sx. So look how far we've come.
Now it's falling apart. But youknow what's what's great is that is
(48:50):
that not only are we supporting eachother, but we feel much more supported
by the rest of the world.And that helps. It helps a lot
because on those days when we're allso tired and feeling bad about not writing
and worried about our finances and allthose things too, then have a random
person in a grocery store seeing mywriter's guilt shirt and be like, go
(49:13):
get them, you know it meansI'm just like, thank you, I'm
trying. That's awesome. You're gonnabuy this notes for my kids. So
one of the things that I thoughtof while we were working on this,
this episode of these questions was partof the strike has to do with at
a possible increased use of AI.Has your work being mostly in science fiction
(49:35):
made you more or less wary ofthings like this? Oh man, I'm
I'm totally mistrustful of AI. Idon't because if AI is not giddy in,
I don't trust it and learning howto be our friends, to take
care of us, to be ourship mommy, then m it's gotta go.
Uh yeah, I don't trust it. I just and maybe I'm a
(49:59):
bit of a chocolate I but like, I don't really want to put any
part of my creative process into it. I know some people who do when
are using it, and it's likegood, good for them, But just
to me, it feels just likea plagiarism machine. It's just urgitating everything
that's in the Internet, and I'mlike, that's not really creative. Yes,
that's sort of what creatives do.We do regurgitate a lot of things
(50:21):
that have already happened. That's whatcreativity is in a lot of ways,
putting your own spin on something that'salready out there, but it just feels
wrong. It's just the whole ideaof like it being able to and a
hyperanalyze all the works of Stephen Kingand then be like, here's an outline
in the style of Stephen King.Go at it. You know, I'm
like, that doesn't feel right tome. I feel like I should have
at least had to do that researchmyself and really put my own spin on
(50:45):
it as opposed to having chat GBTregurgitate it for me. So I don't
trust it. I like what yousaid exactly. If it's not Gideon,
I don't care, Like this isnot something I can remember what old Gideon
was, Like, what remember exactlylearn how to be a human and be
friendly? Like that was bad Gideon. That's what That's where we were trying
(51:06):
to show. The season seven waslike, there's this Ai, and then
there's this. It was the warning, Yeah, nice one, but that's
never really going to happen. Soyeah, Ai, Well we don't want
to take too much more of yourtime. But I again cannot believe that
that this has happened, you know, in our first season. Hopefully we'll
(51:28):
be doing this for many more years. We have so many more episodes to
cover. Any chance you might mindcoming back in the future when the strike
is over, wheneveryone, when you'resuper busy, let this bother again.
Yeah, great, and come back. We'll get into we'll get into the
real nerdy weeds that that we've gotfor at some point I would be happy
(51:50):
to nerd out and and to giveat least my interpretation of whatever questions that
you have. Yeah, cool,cool, Well, thank you, thank
you so much for joining us thatand truly forgiving us the show that is
not only addictive and the best partof our weeks for many years, but
also now something that we get torevisit and that like it's made a stronger
(52:12):
friendship for Fatrician I too. Youknow, it's just been the gift that
keeps on giving. So can't thankyou enough. Awesome, Well, thank
you, thank cool cool everyone,Thank you for joining us. Next week
is our season one finale. Can'tbelieve we're here already, but again,
huge thank you to you Ketto.Please follow Ketto on all the socials below
links in the bio and till nexttime, do not call us podcasters.
(52:35):
We're legends. Always hold on ToDC's Legends of Tomorrow is produced by Zach
Moore as part of the Always holdon To podcast family. Listen to Zach's
other great podcasts wherever you're hearing this, and check out even more podcast action
on the Always hold on To SmallvillePatreon page. You can find more Legends
goodness on social at Legends of Always, and feel free to send us an
email at Legends of Always at gmaildot com, hashtag save a hot to
(52:58):
clot and rate and review us inapp Please do that, please, please
please you beautiful nerd. You thanksfor listening. I was pretty prepared to
(53:23):
sorry this my dog broto are youkid? What upp? He's like,
I'm amazed one of us hasn't hada meowing cat yet. I've just had
them jump on top of me.That's very normal.
Okay, I'm good. You good, I am good. Oh, here
we go, making me nervous comingin, and welcome back to always hold
(00:28):
on to DC's Legends of Tomorrow.I'm one of your co captain's Matt true
X, and I'm your other cocaptain, Trisha Annas, and we have
a very special episode for you today. I can't believe this episode is happening
at the end of our season one. This felt like something to our guest
we've said early on, like whatwho's Who's the biggest guest we could get?
And you were always the top ofthe list. So welcome Legends of
(00:52):
Tomorrow. Co show runner, coeverything Ketoshimizu, Hi, thanks, hi,
thank you so much for taking thetime. I attribute this all to
Puppet Ray at Comic Con, butwe made a very good impression. That
was Yeah. The however many hoursthat took to make We're all worth it.
(01:14):
I can't tell you how you know, I'm out here in Los Angeles,
were involved in the business, blahblah blah. I don't get starstruck
by actors. When you and likeall the crew of Legends walked into that
panel that I was at, thatthat mark Guggenheim was a part of I
had a moment of like, ohmy god, I've run into a nest
of them, Like how did thishappen? So we were we were we
(01:34):
were so excited to see you andto see that beautiful puppet and everything.
It really warmed our hearts. Well, thank you, thank you. Obviously.
Well we'll get into your time inthe arrow verse and whatnot, but
if we could start early on,we actually have a lot in common.
Jersey boy that went to Emerson College. Yeah, but but so so I
(01:57):
wonder if I could answer this way. But question one, when did you
get the show biz bug? Wereyou always kind of interested in writing from
the outset or did that kind ofevolve over time for you? I think
I always wanted to be a storytellerof one kind or another, and it
really started for me in visual art. My father was a painter and an
(02:20):
art historian, and I learned howto paint from him as a very little
girl. And I was always drawingpictures and making up stories about the weird
characters and monsters I was coming upwith. And I eventually sort of transitioned
from doing that to writing little stories, writing little novels. And at the
(02:44):
same time, my mother, who'san ethn musicologist, had me really immersed
in a music community. And soI was composing music, and I was
singing and performing and you know,traveling the world. And I've kind of
found filmmaking. Because I was ateenager, I was trying to figure out
what I wanted to do, whatsort of art I knew I wanted to
(03:05):
be an artist of some sort.I didn't really know which medium I wanted
to really stick with. I lovedvisual arts, I loved music, I
loved you know, writing, Iloved all these things. And when I
came to realize was, you know, filmmaking really kind of combines all the
arts. It's really like you kindof to be a really good filmmaker,
you kind of have to understand orat least to be able to speak the
(03:28):
language of all of these different artforms. And I was like, that's
how I draw and all the artisticthings I love to do, I'll become
a filmmaker. And that was awonderful revelation had that. I got that
at about fifteen years old, andthat became my driving force throughout high school.
Was learning more about moviemaking. Iwent to like a filmmaking camp I
(03:52):
started. At that point, Iwas I was doing like comic books and
playwriting, which was a sort ofanother way to sort of fulfill my movie
bug, even if I don't reallyhave the ability to go off and make
movies yet. Sure, but thestorytelling thing and the story anything, and
you know, playing with these differentmediums. And I got into our media
(04:14):
rather I yeah, and I becamefocused on, you know, finding a
film school that I really wanted toget into and really honed in on Emerson.
That was one that very early onwas a standout for me. And
going to the campus and meeting allthese really passionate, passion and driven individuals,
I was like, oh, theseare my people. Not only are
(04:35):
they you know, the weirdos whomake their own clothes and dye their hair
crazy colors and have all these piercingsand stuff, which I had all those
things and did all those things.It was like they were also these people
who have known since they were teenagersor kids that this is the thing they
want to do and this is whatthey're gonna focus on in college. Like
(04:55):
I didn't want the typical college experienceof you know, being in a big
campus and yeah, messing around andlike you know, dating a bunch of
people and going to wild parties.I was like, I did that,
Like that was for me. LikeI did a lot of partying in high
school, and I was like,I want to now do the thing that
I'm really passionate about. And Ifound that the community at Emerson was the
(05:16):
same. They were all the weirdof were really driven and excited to be
there to hone their craft, toget better and to build their community.
So that was kind of a donedeal for me, and I'm really glad
that I got in. And uhyeah, So to answer your question,
I guess I've I've had a drivein me to be a person that brings
(05:38):
people together through adventures and stories,and it's you know that the format of
doing that has changed throughout the years, but since film school and beyond,
it's been you know, TV filmthat's okay. So like obviously at an
early age you're saying, you know, plays and in comics and whatnot,
(05:59):
you like this is always the questionthat that kind of haunts me, Like
do you remember the first script forwhatever it play? Comic movie, whatever
it was that you finished and gaveyou that moment of like, oh I
could do this, Like I canI can tell this from start to finish.
I had a play that I wroteI think I was sixteen, and
(06:19):
it was part of the Vermont Iwas in Vermont at the time, the
Vermont Playwrights Festival Young Playwrights Festival,and my play got selected to be performed
by professional actors and like a nightof you know, celebrating these young playwrights
and watching the performers, like watchingtheir rehearsal and seeing the director work with
(06:46):
them and then watching you know,my words come to life, and like
that really was It was so excitingand it just felt so right. I
was like, oh yeah, likethey're they're getting into it, they're getting
in their characters, they're loving thisdialogue. You know, they're really playing
with it. And I was like, this is the best feeling in the
world. And it really made methink like I can do this and I
(07:09):
will continue to do this. Anduh, while I didn't stick with playwriting
per se, you know, theyou know, the magic of writing things
that then go into other people's handsand get britt brought to life by actors
has been has has never gotten old. Yeah, we'll be a recurring theme.
(07:31):
Yeah, exactly, It's just stillit still does feel like magic when
it all comes together. Cool.I feel like, pretty soon we're gonna
have to tell Emerson they need topay us for the amount of times I
know this is getting sick. Wehad Dan Park on too, and it
was like during the conversation that werealized like, oh god, we might
have had clauses together like this iscan you can you talk a little bit
(07:54):
about, you know, joining TheCape something that was an early Superhero show.
I feel like, what was thatexperience? Your first time in a
writer's room? That was my firsttime in a writer's room. Yeah.
I got into that room largely duethe fact that I had done the Writers
on the Verge program that fall,and The Cape was a show that NBC
(08:15):
had been developing, and the directorof the Writers on the Verge Program,
Karen Horn, was very aware ofthat show and had been in you know,
she was really vigilant about being incontact with showrunners of shows that she
felt like for potential matches for peoplewho were in her program. And she
knew right away because of my passionfor Batman and for comic book characters in
(08:39):
general, but particularly Batman. Like, my essay to get in writers on
the Verge was about how much andhow meaningful the Batman animated series was in
my childhood and how it made mewant to be a storyteller, which is
true like it. And she reallyloved that show too, so she were
like, she was like, ohmy gosh, there's this girl like she
she loves the best and she,you know, it's very passionate about this
(09:01):
genre. So when The Cape wascoming out, She's like, oh my
gosh, Ketto has to be onthe Cape. Ketto has to be on
the Cape. And I was luckyenough that, you know, ultimately I
did end up staff on the Capeafter a very tumultuous staffing season, and
that's a whole other story, butultimately I did land there as the staff
writer, and the experience was amazing. Like the room, I was so
(09:24):
scared and going into that room.It was the first time I'd ever been
in a writer's room. Whereas youknow, a lot of people who become
staff writers, a lot of themgo up through the you know, the
assistant line, you know, theyso they are a writer's PA and then
you know, a script coordinator oryou know, or show runners assistant or
(09:45):
and then a writer's assistant and thenyeah, you know, they get their
break and they get to be onstaff. I had none of that training.
So I had my experience on writerson the verge, and I had
my a couple of years as anassistant in post production and you know,
so I had worked in post productionoffices on features, feature feature films mostly,
(10:05):
But yeah, I was I wasnot at all prepared. Yeah,
were you was actually going to belike in a room, Sorry to interrupt
you. Were you the only babywriter on that show too? Baby writers?
Wow? So there's no solidarity there, you know, like no one
else in it with you. Butit really was, like I found And
(10:26):
I was really nervous because because Iwas so green, because I was so
young. I was twenty five,so I was like really like fresh out
of the gate, yeah, andhad I just didn't have any of the
underlying experience that most staff writers havegoing into a room like this. And
I was going into a room withwriters who'd been doing this primarily for like
(10:46):
decades, like these are really seasoned, really accomplished genre writers and both TV
and features, And I was sonervous. I was such a wreck.
But what I found when I wentinto the room and like finally and got
to like actually know the showrunners andthese other writers, everyone was so lovely
(11:07):
and so welcoming, so nurturing,so kind, so willing to mentor and
to give me and you know,give me advice, give me tips,
like you know, pointing to pointme in the right direction. They're like,
hey, cattle, because you're likeyou're not a super experienced picture yet,
and that's okay, why don't yougo right on the boards. And
(11:28):
I was like, oh, okay, I'll write on the board. Sure.
And suddenly I became an invaluable assetbecause I had good handwriting for the
boards. I could keep things organized. I could like write and rewrite things
over and over and it again movedaround and uh and I was always like
a cheerleader. I was like alwayslike got really excited about things, and
you know that the energy and thenmy ability to like do that was kind
(11:52):
of and that's kind of what theyneeded for me, was someone keep the
energy up and keep them organized byby writing all these things on them words.
So I was like, great,that was excellent advice. From a
super senior writer who really knew whatshe was talking about and be like,
hey, this is how you're goingto be useful. I hope we're not
picking at a scab with this.I mean, like it's your first show.
(12:13):
And then obviously it did not lastvery long at all. Was that
that must have been heartbreaking? Itwas? It was, And like I
said, I mean, I wasn'tthe only it wasn't the only like lower
there was. There was one otherwriter, Robbie Thompson, who was now
a showrunner as well, but hewas a story editor I think on it,
or I might have been a storyeditor. So he had done a
couple of shows before that. Sohe and I were the ones who are
(12:35):
like we shared an office. Wewere sort of like, you know,
the the kids of the group again. But again he had much more experience
than I had, and he wasvery again, very kind, very nurturing.
And it was sad. It wassad, you know when when it
all ended, because we went onthe real whole roller coaster of an experience
(12:56):
of like a show that NBC atthe time was so excited for. They
were getting so hyped up. Theywere plastering ads all over the city like
took it to comic Con, likeit's the whole thing. And then,
you know, after the first coupleepisodes there, like viewership plummeted and suddenly
it was like fairly soon after that, it was like, oh, our
(13:18):
outline, they didn't give us money. Notes on a like are like,
oh, they don't really care anymorebecause they're like, oh crap, like
you know, and I didn't.I had never experienced any of this,
so I, you know, wason this show that had so much,
so much love and anticipation and joyand excitement and hope around to something that
(13:39):
where it was like, oh no, we're in the end days, right,
You're instantly the red headed step child. Yeah, like yeah, and
and realizing along with like these moreexperienced writers who are like, oh no,
like any day we're going to getthe call, like and you know,
I was just like, what's like, oh no, but so far
this is my first show. Ilooked so much like what I mean,
(14:00):
like, this family's going to breakapart, like why. It was just
such a devastating experience. So don'tthey know how much fun we're having this
so much fun and the crew wasamazing and we were shooting not just in
la but like on the same lotas the writer's room, which was really
really cool because like during my lunchbreak, I could just go down to
(14:22):
set and like see what they weredoing there. The actors were so kind
and collaborative. It was like itwas all the wonderful things. And of
course my one of the shore runnersat the time, was like, it's
like, that's what always happens whenyou love the people show, it doesn't
last. I don't say that,don't say that. So yeah, it
was. It was very It wasvery sad, and of course, as
(14:45):
the baby writer of the group comingout of it, I was like,
oh no, was this a fluke? Am I never going to get staffed
again? Like this just you know, luck of the draw just so happened.
There was this Batman like show andthere's a girl obsessed with Batman like
right, And I was, no, I'm never gonna it's that's it,
that's it. That was And thankfullythat was not the case. But there
(15:07):
was definitely a couple months there whereI was going to a lot of meetings
and not getting any jobs, andI was like, oh no, it's
over already already. I'm twenty sixand I'm already washed out TV. Don't
they know how well I can writeon a board? Yeah, So I
mean you've you've got a lot ofthings. You got being human in between.
(15:28):
Yeah, I was a great showthat was like that was also one
of those magic in the bottle showswhere everyone was firing on all cylinders.
We had the best show owners,the best other writers. I was collaboring
with an incredible cast, like justdelightful, the best at working hours,
like it was. It was amazing. And that was another show where like
(15:52):
I got there and all these otherwriters were like most shows aren't like this,
Keto just so you're getting spoiled outthere, like they called the rest
of the writing world gen pop.They're like, the show was over,
we're all going back in the genpop and it is not like this.
This is like the fancy place wherewe're really good meals and really good hours
(16:15):
and you know, she don't tellanybody that it's actually an absolute joy to
come into work every day and workwith these lovely humans and laugh our asses
off and spill our guts on thetable and you know, just right again
a show that we were all soproud of and it was, Yeah,
it was. It was such agood experience and I learned so much from
(16:37):
being in that room and getting toproduce episodes up in Montreal and all that
that it really did prepare me forwhat came next, which was Arroverse for
season obviously transitions. Yeah, yeah, you've mentioned it a few times.
You're you're a big Batman fan,the assumed DC and Jet Like are you
seeking this out? Once you seethat Arrows up and running, Like,
(17:00):
where did that kind of come up? It wasn't. It was strange.
It it came about in kind ofan odd way where I I knew that
Arrow was being developed, and Iwas sort of like, wow, that's
a challenge. Like I was sortof I was sort of one of the
doubters at first. I was like, man, like Green Arrows, that's
a tough character to develop, Likeooo, all right, good luck.
Like I didn't really know anybody involved, so I didn't really have a horse
(17:23):
in the race certain thing. Iwas just like, all right, green
watching, I guess it goes.And then obviously season one came out and
I was I was on being Humanat the time, and I was like,
oh, you're doing something kind ofcool. They're like, all right,
you know, kudos to them.They're they're doing great. And I
(17:45):
happened to have a meeting over atWarner Brothers while I was in between seasons
of Being Human. I was stillin my contract for Being Human, but
we were on hiatus and I hadthis great meeting with an executive over there,
and she brought up Arrow and Iand you know, I was sort
of like, yeah, that's great, you know, in this sort of
way you do in a meeting.I hadn't really watched much of it,
(18:07):
but I was sort of like,yeah, it's awesome. I mean,
we did the Cape a couple ofyears ago and kind of trying to do
what they're doing on Arrow, andI love to see that they're doing it
really successfully on Arrow. Like goodfor them. Yeah. But in the
meantime, you know, if sheknew that I was really passionate about the
DC universe and you know that Batmanwas a huge passion of mine, and
(18:29):
so she recommended me for staffing forseason two, and they were they had
done some rotating of the staff andthey needed someone like me to come in
there. And I wasn't looking fora job at the time because I was
happily staffed on Thinking and I lovedit there and I had no intention of
leaving. It would have been mylast year, our last year on my
(18:51):
current contract over at sci Fi,and but I was like whatever, I'll
take the meeting, Like the showrunners want to meet with me. Great.
I've never had showrunners like actively seekingme out to meet me. Was
like great. And it turned outthey had both talked to people I had
worked with on The Cape, youknow they all had and also Being Humans,
(19:14):
so there were people who are like, not only did we love your
writing, we also checked with youknow, with your friend Kristinus over Being
Human, We checked with Tom Wheelerlike the Cape, and they all say
that you're great, And I waslike what what? And it was an
a strange showrunner meeting for me becauseall the show runner meetings I had had
up to that point where me reallytrying to sell myself as like someone who
(19:38):
would be great for your room,showing so much enthusiasm for the material and
like, you know, trying topitch ideas and trying to like connect personally
with the with the showrunners and reallypresent who I was. And in this
meeting, it was them trying tosell Arrow to me, like they were
trying to sell the show to me, and I knew had that for where
(19:59):
they were like, here, thisis what we're doing, this is what
we're going to do in season two, like you know, and I was
and I was excited and I wasnerding out with them and like you know,
but I yeah, it was verystrange. And I came out of
that meeting and I was like,I have this strange feeling like I just
met my new bosses. I justcame out of that me and I was
(20:21):
like, I think that's where I'mgoing to work next. But I was
like, wait a minute, Idon't want to leave Being Human. Think
Human hadn't even gotten picked up yet, like for the fourth season. So
I was like, God, whatdo I do? And so after calling
my agents, I called my bossI'm Being Human and I was like,
good, well, basically you know, these the Arrow bosses. As I
(20:41):
was leaving, they were like,look, we want you to join our
staff. We want you but ifthe first meeting, yeah, but they
but they were saying, we needit's going to take some complicated maneuvers to
get you out of your sci ficontract. So we now if that is
worth us pursuing. And I alsolike, I think so again, because
(21:06):
I thought that was like I thinkthese are the people I'm going to be
working for and next you know.But yeah, so I called my agents
and then I called my boss overbeing Human and explained the situation, and
she she knew me really well.She knew how passionate I was about this
universe, and she was just likeshe's like, go just go, like
(21:27):
absolutely, I will. I willdeal with Sci Fi get them to release
you from the contract, like justthis is a great opportunity to do it.
So she was so lovely about itand totally had my back as Arrow
poached me. Yeah, I wasgonna say, but it's so nice that
she didn't make it a custody battlenow and she has, you know,
(21:48):
she and her husband, Jeremy Sothat was Anna Friakie and Jeremy Carver have
been nothing but lovely since since youknow I've seen. Yeah, so obviously
like your Arrow Verse career took offfrom there, but early on, like
you know, they poached you,like you said, what do you think
it was that you brought to thestaff for season two of Arrow? Like
(22:11):
what what was it that they sawyou that that they wanted to add to
the room. I think they reallywanted someone who was really knowledgeable and passionate
about the DC universe, who hadseen and uh, you know, vetted
(22:32):
like a lot of different interpretations ofthe DC universe and could sort of pick
the best pieces of what's been doneand like bring it into the Arrow verse
and uh and really bring you know, characters off the page into in a
(22:52):
like a really cool, flashy,visceral, exciting way. And they saw
that both in my sample and thenway I talked about characters from you know,
the Green Narrow comics, and theway the conversation that we had about
you know, I had questions aboutlife, what's gonna on, what's happening
with Roy Harper, you know,like and they're they're able, They're like,
oh, we're thinking of doing this, and I was like, that's
(23:15):
awesome, and you know, justhaving like a really you know, a
conversation with them that was coming fromthe same well of love and you know,
understanding of this world and the potentialto bring more characters in and too.
(23:36):
You know, at that time,we were really the only DC show
on the air, which meant thatwe had access to a lot of characters
because there weren't all these other shows. Once the other show started to moping
up, it was like, no, you can't do that character. No
you can't do that character, becauselike we got to like save the characters.
But there was a time in likeseason two where we were just going
hog while. We were just like, yeah, that they're on this person
(23:56):
and this person is this person,and I was like, no one was
telling us we couldn't, you know, They're all like great, great,
And then suddenly it was like,oh no, Nelly had the Flash.
Oh no, Nollie have Supergirl,Like I can't do that anymore. But
there was this this sort of wildWest period and just throwing everybody in there.
So that was really that was reallyfun and I was really a delight
(24:18):
to be a part of. ButI think also they wanted someone who could
write soap, who could write areally good action sequence, and who could
build a world, and like theseare things I got from my sample,
But they knew that that you know, I'd i'd bring uh bring the characters
(24:40):
to life in a way that theywanted them to. Yeah. I had
the good fortune of seeing the panelthat you were on a comic con on
that Saturday, and you talked abouta sample there. Is that the same
one that you're talking about here,Like, is this your your kind of
spec pilot that you wrote? Yeah, yeah, which was you could say
(25:00):
better than me, but it soundedlike crazy sci fi concept. It's a
crazy genre mashup of horror, Westernscience fiction and you know soap. Yeah,
a big old like Monster Hunton action, crazy adventure with you know,
(25:21):
a bisexual character at the center ofit who's sort of torn between worlds and
lovers. And yeah, it's great, right everything you got yea, Yes,
basically that's it's it's it's very muchmy heart out on the on the
page there in that sample. Soit's it's been very useful in sort of
giving people an idea of what goeson inside my brain. Sounds like my
cup of tea. Absolutely, sojumping a little bit to the good stuff
(25:45):
for us. Anyway, is canyou talk a little about, you know,
how you ended up joining Legends?Sure, well, I so,
I spent three years on Arrow,during which I got a lot of producing
experience. I got to go upto Canada a lot, I got to
you know, just because of theschedule we were. We were, you
know, in production at the sametime as we were in post production at
(26:07):
the same time as we were breakingand writing episodes. So it was this
wonderful opportunity as a as a youknow, mid level writer at that which
is what I was at the time, to really get my hands diurdy in
all aspects of the process. Andso I learned so much and uh got
to a point in that room whereI realized, there's not a lot of
(26:30):
growth from me here anymore. LikeI just knew that, you know,
there were there was the leader sortof the future leadership of Arrow had been
tapped, and I full support ofthat. I was like, I want
that Shorts to run the show.Like I was like, she's great,
And I was like, but Iwhere do I fit in that? You
(26:52):
know, I don't want to getaway. I don't want to be seen
as like competition, And but Idid want to be a leader, Like
I wanted to be a leader ofa room, having had so much experience
now and really feeling like I coulddo that. So I was pregnant at
the time with my first child,and I still wanted to be somewhere safe
(27:14):
so I was kind of torn.I was like, I could leave their
verse and try and find another jobin another place where I could have more
growth, But as a new mom, that's going to be really hard to
manage being in a new place witha new community of writers while dealing with
a newborn. Like, oh,maybe I just renew my contract here and
like just deal with it and justyou know, just settle in, settle
(27:37):
in, you know, And Ididn't really like that plan. I had
a conversation with Mark Guggenheim and WendyMiracle, who are at the time running
Arrow, and they wanted to knowwhat I wanted to do. They were
like they knew it was my lastmy last year on the contract, and
they're just like, hey, look, we love you. We would love
for you to stay here, andthis would be, you know, a
(27:59):
great place to be a new mom. Like we'll take care of you like
you little you know, you're you'restill such a valuable asset to this room.
And then Mark was like, orwe have a need over it Legends
of Tomorrow for season two to havesomeone like you really come in and you
know, help basically reinvent the show. And I hadn't really watched Legends at
(28:23):
that time. All I mean thatit's sort of you know, it was
such a strange concept to me.Yeah, buzzy. But I was like,
Okay, now we have another sistershow. It's like this collection of
characters from our show and the Flash, and and I knew the process of
how it had been brought together,and I was like, weird, Like
(28:47):
they're going to a comic con withlike a sizzle reel, Like none of
these actors about showrunners don't Like Philhad no idea what the show was about.
Here, I don't know, we'regoing to figure it out. So
I was like that was I wassort of like, I don't know what's
going on here. But when Marksaid that that, you know, he's
like, we have a need overthere. We would love free to come
(29:07):
over. And so I was like, let me think about it. And
so I thought about it, andI was like, well, here's a
really interesting opportunity. Here's a showthat is still trying to figure out what
it is. I have an ideawhat it could be and what I think
it should be. Having been sucha huge fan of Firefly, I was
like, I think it needs tobe more like that. Like, that's
(29:30):
the show where it's like a foundfamily, a bunch of misfits having these
romps, like gotta make it funnierlike it got you know, because I
didn't did watch watch the show andwas like, Okay, when they have
these moments of humor, it comesto life. That's when I lean you
know. When they have these reallyemotional stories, that's when I lean in.
When it gets too much gobblygook about, you know, just really crazy
(29:53):
plots and darkness and all that,I was like, that's that doesn't work
for this show. And and soI then talked to Mark and I was
like, hey, look, Iam interested in joining Legends. However,
I would like to join it asa COEP and I would like to lead
the room. And he was like, I love that idea. Let me
(30:15):
talk to Greg re LENTI let metalk to Phil. So he took it
up the ladder, talked to hiscoachhow Runner at the time, and they
they made it happen. And soI moved over and suddenly I was I
was a leader mom, which wascrazy, but I was, you know
I And so from then I gotto I got to run the room,
and it was It was wonderful andit was exactly what I needed, which
(30:38):
was to be in a safe spacebecause it was safe. It was still
part of the family, but itwas a whole new opportunity, a whole
new sandbox, and there was thiswonderful transformation that the show was ready to
go through. And having myself andyou know, the all the new team
(31:00):
that was what was brought in reallyuh and and also being given sort of
the freedom from Warner Brothers to reinventthe show really made for a a fun
experience and a very fulfilling creative experience, even in just that first year,
as we were transitioning from you know, a pretty dour and serious and you
(31:26):
know, with these sort of highconcept issues to something that was really about
these people and the found family andyou know, misfits finding their place and
time adventures and this sense of uh, you know, just just being subversive
and having a lot of fun,but always holding on to the emotional stories
(31:51):
and really leading with what we youknow, what we had called on air
of the Emojo, you know,the emotional joke. I think it's actually
kind of funny to hear you talkabout, you know, this idea of
first of all, you're coming fromprobably the most serious show in the ear
overse and trying to inject less ofthat into into Legends. But also I
think it's funny to talk about,like, you know, moving away from
(32:12):
like high concepts things and like thisthe sort of gobbles the good of a
plot, But in doing that,it's sort of like injected Legends with just
insanity, which I think is alsoa certain type of high concepts. I'm
curious how you balance as a writerthe serious emotional moments that the show has,
which I'd go on about constantly onthis podcast, and the humor that
(32:34):
makes us all like love watching itevery week. For us, it was
really we had I mean, itwas kind of impossible not to have both
because we had people in our roomwho were who were both. You know,
we had people who were who couldeasily switch from talking about a very
serious and personal, you know,story that we were we were getting into,
(32:58):
getting into the meat of, andthen tossing a joke there that would
just have us all in stitches andwe're like, absolutely, that's how you
undercut that and make that, youknow, make it work. And then
we had people in our room whowere just like the funniest people over who
were just like just there, whowould just throw out these crazy ideas and
we'd be like, actually, yes, you know. And then we had
people who were like me who tendedto be more focused on, you know,
(33:22):
push it, keeping the trains movingand making sure we had really sound
structure and making sure that the emotionalstories had at that beginning middle and like
really keeping that cohesion of the emotionalstory, which is always like the glue
of any story we were telling.And then the romp and the adventure and
the and the zaniness, all ofthat really came out of the emotional story
(33:45):
and really came from like the mishmashof differences that we had in our and
our cast and of our characters,because that's where we could find that those
moments that would be uncomfortable but likehilariously uncomfortable, and those opportunities for that
totally unexpected thing that would just beyou know again, have have us in
(34:09):
stitches in the room and then ofcourse eventually end up on your screens reaction
to you know, belly laugh.But then you know, a moment later,
you're tearing up because there's something reallypoignant and lovely that happens at all
of that, But it was alwaysreally important for us that we led with
character and emotion, and then thefun just kind of came out of it
(34:34):
because we as a room all we'rekind of goofballs, and we loved that
surprise, and we loved those unexpectedturns, and we loved being able to
undercut the seriousness of anything that wedid with that moment of levity. It
just it was so important to usto in order for all of those pieces
to work together, because if wewere too emotional all the time, if
(34:57):
we were too you know, itjust sague or whatever. It's just didn't
it wasn't right. It wasn't rightfor us, it wasn't right for the
show, It wasn't satisfying for us, or to come up with or to
write. It always had to havethat little bit of undercutting or or that
surprising version of something so that itwas something that you hadn't seen before.
Yeah, So it's we talked aboutall the time. It's the narrative whiplash
(35:21):
of the show that it was justso addicting and like hooked both of us
that we spend way too much ofour free time doing this you know so
much when you're you're coming into thisroom, you're reinventing this show, and
it's the first time you've led awriter's room. Like just on a practical
level, what are things that you'rebringing from other experience that that you are
(35:43):
introducing or you know, starting toimplement in the Legends room to kind of
change things up, you know,for the better hopefully. Yeah. For
me, it was really about leadingwith the emotional story. And I can't
speak really to what the King processwas like in season one. Obviously I
wasn't there, but and even anarrow like this wasn't really how we didn't
(36:06):
until the end. And it's funnybecause when I was on Being Human,
I was taught the Berlante method ofbreaking story, and being went Anna Frickey
and Jeremy Carver and other people whohad like come up through these other shows
had learned from Greg b Lante waslike this method where if you have say,
a cast of three characters, whichBeing Human did, each one of
(36:29):
them gets a story. There's anystory, B story, C story.
In our case, it was likea Sally story and Aidan story and a
Josh story, and we you know, each one would get broken out as
like a beginning, middle, andend. Here's where they start, here's
what happens, here's what's complicated,and then ultimately, this is where it
resolves. We'd have that for eachcharacter, and then you would do a
smush or you would take all thepieces of those different stories and you would
(36:51):
put them into the act breaks,and then after that you would flesh it
out and it would become a whole. You know, you'd have transitions from
scene to scene, and you havebasically what's almost a mini outline on the
board by the time you were done. And then after that a writer would
then take that, you know,that fleshed out board, turned it into
(37:12):
an outline, turn into script,and so on and so forth. That
was the Berlante method of breaking story. I come to arrow after doing this
on Being Human, and that isout the door. No one's doing anything
on the Blante show. This isgone, Like all right, what's happening
in the first scene? All right, let's see we're wait, what what
is going on here? What isthis chaos? Like? How are we?
(37:35):
I thought I learned the what butit was just it was season two.
It was like they're coming out ofvery chaotic season one on Arrow,
it was just people were just tryingto get things done. It was like
the twenty three of these things,now I gotta do twenty three more.
And so it was just sort oflike seated their pants, like we gotta
you know, we gotta get beatson the board. But I was like,
this isn't. This isn't when Iwas taught what's going on here,
(37:58):
and Beth Schwartz and the Miracle,who also had come up through the Brolanti
method, were like, wait,no for me, like just go with
it. We'll try and fix itlater. And then by the time I
left, when Wendy had more powerand Beth head more power, was like
we finally got back to that,finally grow finally went back to the Brolante
(38:19):
method. And then I left andI took the Brolante method over too.
Let's this is how we're going tostart breaking stories, your guys, and
and we did, and it helpedmake the process much more focused and more
efficient, I think, and againreally focused on that emotional story for whatever
we were doing, was like,what are the emotional stories? And then
what the plot? The plot issort of should service the emotional story.
(38:44):
Not the other way around, youknow, was really because the driving force.
Eventually, also, you get theco showrunner title with Phil, So
how does that how does that kindof change your day to day and like
what is what is the most surprisingpart of that for you? Were there
things of that that that you didn'tsee coming or we're excited to get into.
(39:05):
I was really excited and really readyto get the title because for a
couple of years before I got theofficial title, I was kind of co
running it like with Phil, LikePhil was still very much like the show
runner, but he had let meinto the process in a very uh,
you know, in a partnership kindof way. He really uh he started
(39:30):
bringing me in on all the youknow, all the bigger meetings and and
helping having conversations with me about issuesthat were going on with the cast or
the crew. And I was onall the sort of like broader you know,
conversation calls with the network and thestudio that you know, I was
an EP, so like, youknow, he's come in on this stuff.
(39:52):
But it was for the purpose oftraining me to take to really kind
of and officially be a co runner. And Phil is a very generous showrunner.
He is someone who likes to collaborate. He's not someone who like covets
power and holds onto it or covetscommunication because it he thinks it gives him
(40:14):
more power. He's very much likeI would rather have a conversation with another
EP about this and figure it out, you know. He rather share that
than hold on to it himself.So he was a great person in those
years before I officially became his corunner to to learn from and to have
(40:34):
more of those opportunities to know whatwas going on behind the scenes and to
help solve those problems. And duringthat time, I also did the showrunner
Training program over with with the WritersGuild. That was that was a really
wonderfully eye opening experience and I learnedso much from that, and I brought
some of those lessons in here.I was like, hey, Phil,
(40:58):
like, why don't we adapt thisthing that I learned from the show runner
training program? And he was like, okay, you know, and we
did, and it did help makethings more efficient and help, you know,
keep us on track, you know, schedule wise, you know.
And and so yeah, when Ifinally did get the official title, it
(41:20):
more felt like recognition for what Ihad already been doing for a couple of
years, and something I had wantedto get a couple of years before.
But there was a whole michigas withlike my development and all of this stuff,
Like they they would have wanted meto cease all of my development if
I were to get that kosher Runnertitle with Phil like in those pretty sures,
(41:44):
And I was like, I'm notwilling to do that, So I
didn't get the bump, you know, so those frustrating things. But then
finally I was in a position wherelike I could demand the title and say,
and you're not going to stop itfrom developing, and there we are
cool. Good for you, Like, that's awesome. Obviously we're huge fans
(42:08):
of the show. Obviously we talkabout this all the time though, where
we have favorite characters, people welike more than others. But there's not
a single like leads Legend if youwill, that is introduced over the show
that we dislike that that that youknow, we were just like, yeah,
I was never really a fan ofthem. I'm glad they didn't stay
around for so long or whatever itis. That seems like an incredible thing
(42:30):
to pull off, especially given justthe numbers that you have on legends,
So like, what do you attributethat type of character writing too, And
like, please tell me it's someformula that you figured out that you're that
you're willing to share a formula forus. I think it's just that no
one was ever one dimensional. Likethat was the thing that was always really
(42:52):
important to us, Like, noone is ever one thing. Like even
our worst villain would have a softspot, and even are like silliest character
would have an underlying, you know, layer that was really serious and poignant.
You know. So it was alwaysreally important to us to have those
surprising turns of where you think acharacter is one thing and then you're like,
(43:14):
oh, that's a new angle,Like I didn't realize that that makes
me like that person so much morebecause I realized they're complicated, they're reel,
they're you know, they do havethese contradictions within themselves, and that's
what people are, you know,no one is ever, no one is
ever just one thing, And thatwas always really fun to write. But
(43:35):
also it was really important that wecast people in these roles who brought that
truth to the character and who couldplay all those different angles and be really
funny, also be kind of scary, and also be you know, really
loving, and you know, prettymuch every character kind of had to play
all these things, and so wewere really blessed with just monumental talent,
(44:00):
you know who came to our show, and we're able to roll with big
swings. You know. They werealways game for whatever new angle we threw
at them. We're like, oh, by the way, here's this little
nugget of your character that we hadn'treally gotten into yet. And they're just
like, okay, you know,great, I will find you know,
the truth of that in my performance. And they always did, and I
(44:22):
think that helped pretty much everyone wehad on that show really feel like someone
you would care about, you know, someone that you would like to hang
out with, and and someone whofelt real, you know, even in
the zany situation. It was likeagain, that truth, the human truth,
was always something we were looking for. Yeah, very cool. So
normally this is you know, arewrapping it up. This is when we
(44:43):
would normally go full nerd, askyou all these specifics and fan theories and
our legends lightning around. But we'renot going to do that because of the
w g A strike, which wementioned at the beginning of the show,
based on like when we release theshow, it's probably going to be near
day one hundred and fifty or soby the time this comes out. Hopefully
it'll be over, You'll have newtraction, will be getting back to work
and having a lot of fun.That is our that is our hope.
But you know, we did wantto ask you a little bit about your
(45:06):
experience there and what's it been likefor you to be on the front lines
of this strike. It has beenIt's been a lot of things. You
know. It's been wonderful to reconnectwith my writing community, to see people
out there who, you know,see people from the cape, see people
(45:27):
from being humans, see people fromarrows, you know, just see people
who are part of my writer's room, families of past and getting to reconnect
and to you know, just learnabout what their lives are like now.
These are people I used to spendhours and hours within a room, and
you know, they would come inand tell me about what their daughters were
doing that now and I'm like,no, your daughters are in college.
(45:49):
Oh what's happening there. That's beenwonderful, that's been so lovely and and
also just meeting and talking with otherwriters who are we're all in this really
hard situation, should together but together, and like just feeling that such a
strong sense of solidarity and community,and and knowing that like, I'm not
(46:09):
alone, really not alone in thisfight or in the struggle, or in
this sort of mild depression that Ifeel like most of us are in right
now where they're like how long isthis going to go on? We're all
stressed out, We're all worried aboutour finances and our mortgages and our children
and groceries and bills and all that, And also feeling really tapped out creatively,
(46:35):
like yes, I should have writtensomething in the last three months.
I haven't, you know, Ijust can't. It's like I'm my well
is not there right now. I'mon the picket lines like three times a
week, and on the other dayswhen I'm not, I have to do
stuff around the house because my husbandhas gone back to work this summer to
try and help, and like it'sme, I'm now the mom who has
(46:58):
to do all the pickups in thedrop and you still got to get dinner
on the table and got to doall the grocery shopping and all, you
know. So it's you know thatthere is there is time, and I
could be doing it, but Itry, have tried, and it's really
hard. So I'm like trying toforgive myself for not writing a novel or
writing a feature or something during thistime. And what's been great is that,
(47:20):
like I go out on the lineand I'm like, oh, I'm
not haven't written anything, and likeeveryone around me is like, god,
me neither. It's not it's notjust me who cannot write right now concentrate
because we're like creatively tapped out becausewe're all so stressed out. I was
like, Okay, thank goodness,I'm not the one who's like slacking off
and falling behind in this really intensemoment of our careers. So it's yeah,
(47:45):
being out there is wonderful and awfuland you know, just full of
strength just seeing the numbers. It'sone. It's so great to be out
there and to have all these otherpeople and sag now to just bolstering our
lines, like it's just it feelsgood. It feels right because it is
(48:06):
the right thing to do. Whatthe companies are doing to us is absolutely
wrong. They are one hundred percentof bad guys and all of this,
and people know it. And itfeels good that to have the support of
people outside the industry, Like everyoneI talked to are just like, go
get them, you know, andI'm like, wow, Like last strike,
hardly anybody outside of Hollywood understood whatwas going on, sure, but
they feel like people really understand andthey really get the issues. And it's
(48:29):
been more it's more accessible because peopleare posting on their you know, to
their personal audiences and social media feesthat did not exist back then. It
was like Twitter was like a verynew thing and people didn't use it that
way. So it's and now it'sx. So look how far we've come.
Now it's falling apart. But youknow what's what's great is that is
(48:50):
that not only are we supporting eachother, but we feel much more supported
by the rest of the world.And that helps. It helps a lot
because on those days when we're allso tired and feeling bad about not writing
and worried about our finances and allthose things too, then have a random
person in a grocery store seeing mywriter's guilt shirt and be like, go
(49:13):
get them, you know it meansI'm just like, thank you, I'm
trying. That's awesome. You're gonnabuy this notes for my kids. So
one of the things that I thoughtof while we were working on this,
this episode of these questions was partof the strike has to do with at
a possible increased use of AI.Has your work being mostly in science fiction
(49:35):
made you more or less wary ofthings like this? Oh man, I'm
I'm totally mistrustful of AI. Idon't because if AI is not giddy in,
I don't trust it and learning howto be our friends, to take
care of us, to be ourship mommy, then m it's gotta go.
Uh yeah, I don't trust it. I just and maybe I'm a
(49:59):
bit of a chocolate I but like, I don't really want to put any
part of my creative process into it. I know some people who do when
are using it, and it's likegood, good for them, But just
to me, it feels just likea plagiarism machine. It's just urgitating everything
that's in the Internet, and I'mlike, that's not really creative. Yes,
that's sort of what creatives do.We do regurgitate a lot of things
(50:21):
that have already happened. That's whatcreativity is in a lot of ways,
putting your own spin on something that'salready out there, but it just feels
wrong. It's just the whole ideaof like it being able to and a
hyperanalyze all the works of Stephen Kingand then be like, here's an outline
in the style of Stephen King.Go at it. You know, I'm
like, that doesn't feel right tome. I feel like I should have
at least had to do that researchmyself and really put my own spin on
(50:45):
it as opposed to having chat GBTregurgitate it for me. So I don't
trust it. I like what yousaid exactly. If it's not Gideon,
I don't care, Like this isnot something I can remember what old Gideon
was, Like, what remember exactlylearn how to be a human and be
friendly? Like that was bad Gideon. That's what That's where we were trying
(51:06):
to show. The season seven waslike, there's this Ai, and then
there's this. It was the warning, Yeah, nice one, but that's
never really going to happen. Soyeah, Ai, Well we don't want
to take too much more of yourtime. But I again cannot believe that
that this has happened, you know, in our first season. Hopefully we'll
(51:28):
be doing this for many more years. We have so many more episodes to
cover. Any chance you might mindcoming back in the future when the strike
is over, wheneveryone, when you'resuper busy, let this bother again.
Yeah, great, and come back. We'll get into we'll get into the
real nerdy weeds that that we've gotfor at some point I would be happy
(51:50):
to nerd out and and to giveat least my interpretation of whatever questions that
you have. Yeah, cool,cool, Well, thank you, thank
you so much for joining us thatand truly forgiving us the show that is
not only addictive and the best partof our weeks for many years, but
also now something that we get torevisit and that like it's made a stronger
(52:12):
friendship for Fatrician I too. Youknow, it's just been the gift that
keeps on giving. So can't thankyou enough. Awesome, Well, thank
you, thank cool cool everyone,Thank you for joining us. Next week
is our season one finale. Can'tbelieve we're here already, but again,
huge thank you to you Ketto.Please follow Ketto on all the socials below
links in the bio and till nexttime, do not call us podcasters.
(52:35):
We're legends. Always hold on ToDC's Legends of Tomorrow is produced by Zach
Moore as part of the Always holdon To podcast family. Listen to Zach's
other great podcasts wherever you're hearing this, and check out even more podcast action
on the Always hold on To SmallvillePatreon page. You can find more Legends
goodness on social at Legends of Always, and feel free to send us an
email at Legends of Always at gmaildot com, hashtag save a hot to
(52:58):
clot and rate and review us inapp Please do that, please, please
please you beautiful nerd. You thanksfor listening. I was pretty prepared to
(53:23):
sorry this my dog broto are youkid? What upp? He's like,
I'm amazed one of us hasn't hada meowing cat yet. I've just had
them jump on top of me.That's very normal.
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