HALLOWEEN SPECIAL - NBC’s Constantine

Greetings from beyond the veil, and welcome to our first-ever Halloween Special! For this year’s spook-facular episode, we’re looking at Matt Ryan’s original Constantine series and discussing disappearing lead characters, sacrilegious make-out sessions, and more! Enjoy, and have a wonderful spooky season, ghosts and ghouls!

CARDS TO SAVE THE TIMELINE
Scenarios:
• The most powerful item in John Constantine’s collection is definitely ____.
• In the battle of Heaven and Hell, your best weapon is ______.
Solutions/People:
• John Constantine’s bleeding map.
• The Helm of Nabu.
• Frenching a nun in church.
• Constantine’s immortal cab driver friend.
• Papa Midnite.
• A magical angel feather.

BINGO
• DC Deep Cut
• Constantine Fire Hands
• Let’s Do Drugs

Follow us on socials @legendsofalways and send us an email at [e-mail].

Matt Truex is a Warner Bros. Discovery employee. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are his own and do not necessarily reflect the views or positions of Warner Bros. Discovery.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Hey, Tricia, Yeah, what'syour favorite scary movie? Shockingly, it's
actually scream Oh that worked out?Yeah, hey, and welcome back to

(00:30):
Always Hold On to DC's Legends ofTomorrow. I am one of your co
captains, Matt Truex, and Iam your other co captain, Tricia Ennison.
My Catholic school life is going tohelp us out in this episode.
Oh totally more than I'd like ittoo, to be honest, but it's
not obnoxious about it. Smoolky scaryseason everybody, we're talking the entire series

(00:53):
of Constantine, NBC's Constantine. Yeah, that's a long series. You're right,
you know what tritia for this.I know we watched the whole thing.
Let's just do season one. Yeah, let's just do the first thirteen
episodes. Really, we can savethe rest for another time. Yeah great,
all right, last minute call,but let's do that. How aware
of this show were you when itwas happening. I was completely aware that

(01:15):
it existed. Like I knew MattRyan had been cast. I actually knew
who Matt Ryan was because he'd beenin some other stuff that I've seen,
and I was like, cool,I would love for there to be a
Constantine show. Great, I'm gonnawatch it later. I'll watch some other
stuff first and then I'll come backand watch it like when the season ends.
And then it got canceled and thenthere it went, and then I
never watched it. Not fair enough. I was at Comic Con. I

(01:38):
guess this was twenty fourteen. Iwas like, that might have been my
first comic con, even I don'tfirst or second, but I was at
Comic Con and it was They dida big Batman panel, as they do,
and like Kevin Conry was there,and Paul Deny and whoever else came
and after that it was like stickaround and we're going to show the Constantine
pilot. That's just how the schedulingfor that room went. And I'm like,

(02:02):
yeah, I'll blow off work foranother hour and watch this pilot.
But then, like I can't sayfor the Q and A, I'll really
have to go. And I thoughtthe pilot was really cool and I had
an instant crush on Matt Ryan,and then he came out on stage.
I'm like, I guess I'll hangout a little bit longer and just yes,
yes, So I'm sure I hadheard about it before then, but
that's my first like real strong memoryof the show, and I watched some

(02:25):
of it. I watched maybe threeor four episodes when it was happening,
and then fell off it like abad fan. But also we'll get into
like I'm I kind of defend fallingoff it frankly, and then all of
a sudden it was gone. AndI didn't watch it until he became a
Legend, until like season four ofLegends one October that October, I was

(02:46):
like, all right, I'll justdive back into those and not even once
you joined Arrow, No, Iwas I wasn't watching Hero at the time.
Interest oh interesting, Okay, Sowhen he joined Arrow, I definitely
was still watching, and like Iliked his couple of episodes. It was
all so like when I started beinglike, what are we doing with the
flashbacks? But like so like isit's like part of how he got some

(03:06):
of his tattoos, right, thebizarre thing where it's all of a sudden
like fucking Constantine here, Like whatis it? Yeah? Like okay,
I like Constant. I like this. I like what he's doing here,
except for the stuff with Sarah,like the the bringing her back in the
dead and finding her soul and stufflike that was cool. But yeah,
so that was like the weird eraof Arrow. And but then like,

(03:29):
yeah, he joined Legends, andI was like, oh, we're doing
We're doing this again. All right, Okay, I'll watch, Like yeah,
I wind up. I end upwatching Arrow many years later and I've
seen most of it. But Iwas not a fan a because I didn't
like that he was killing in seasonone and I just didn't drink Stuven and
Mills are very good actor. That'sfair. He has a really good supporting

(03:50):
cast. I think that's yes,yes, totally, and like, like,
you know, season two of Arrowis one of the best things that
this arose ever, did you know? Like I am now an Arrow fan.
Always hold on to Arrow, somesay, but yeah, I was
not with it at the time,but I saw that he was coming onto
it. I'm like, oh,well, that's a good sign at least,
you know, because I think inarguablywe'll get into it. He is

(04:11):
the strongest thing this whole series has, Matt Ryan. Yeah, he might
be the only thing this whole series. All right, let's get into it.
The pilot aired October twenty fourth,twenty fourteen. Right next to Halloween
very nice, and it wound up. The finale wound up airing February thirteenth,
twenty fifteen. So this is aThis is a Birds of Prey if

(04:33):
you ask me again, Aaron onNBC. Developed by Daniel Sarone and David
S. Goyerer. Music by BearBSG McCreery. Fucking bill in it here.
I love the theme. Directed andwritten by a ton of people.
And ratings. The pilot started withfour point two eight million. By the

(04:56):
time the show ended, they'd onlylost a million. It was three point
three Like this, this would meanfive year pickup at the CW. You
know, like, this is abizarre thing. But NBC obviously has different
metrics for that type of thing.Yeah, I mean that network definitely has
very different metrics. What I don'tunderstand, and maybe you can help me
out with this. Why does NBChave rights to certain DC characters? Well,

(05:18):
it was just because like when ashow doesn't have a home, you
can you can shop it around wherever. So NBC doesn't have rights to anything.
They had distribution rights to this andand Powerless. It's all I'm thinking
Powerless, and I thought there wereother things too, But definitely this and
Powerless, and I just remember beinglike, why NBC, Like I know,
CBS was Supergirl. I understood thatone. It was NBC trying to

(05:41):
get into the superhero game and getone despite the fact that well, what
year was Supergirl? Was it?This year? Twenty sixteen? Twenty sixteen
was Supergirl? Uh? Yeah,I believe? So wow? Okay,
ens was mid season I think andSupergirl was that fall? Wow? Ok
google it. Let me make sureit doesn't add sorry, and now we
won't do any time cut and Tricia, Oh, we didn't actually have to

(06:06):
do a time twenty fifteen. Okright, so it's a year later, but
like this is this is people seeingthe success of the CW and thinking we
can do it on a network scaleor on a major network and not going
well. Particularly let's let's get intopre production a little bit. This is

(06:29):
no yeah, nothing here is goingto boil anyone's blood. So, like
I think mainstream cultures and probably stillbest touched on for Constantine is the Keanu
Reeves movie, which which wasn't ahuge hit but did what it did and
has some staying power. I thinkthat's a good movie. Yeah, it's
it's a cool movie, but he'swearing a black trench coat and speaking with

(06:55):
an American accent in that movie,so it's like, yes, it's not
quite there. So this is thisis a pretty faithful, obviously attempt at
Constantine in the show, and that'sthat's why we loved him and he carried
on and became a legend ultimately.But there are a few sticking points here.
One originally no smoking or little smoking, or like we'd see a puff
of smoke over his shoulder and thenhim throw something away and then he was

(07:19):
done smoking, you know, likethat type of thing. And then eventually
I guess the network didn't give ashit he would he would like smoke before
he went into a room most ofthe time, and like he'd be like
having the last drag and snuffing outof butt before he went in. Which
is funny because like the Legends version, because it's so CW SO doesn't like
smoking, right, but they allowhim to almost smoke. Yes, So

(07:41):
there are a lot of instances wherelike the cigarette gets flicked out of his
hand, or he gets distracted orsomething happens that he can't start smoking right,
or my favorite in Crisis, wherehe pulls out two cigarettes and Barry's
like, do you have to takeyour smoke break right now? It's like
it's part of the magic zippy andthen he uses the cigarette to do whatever
crap he's gonna do. Like that, that was cool. It's interesting to

(08:03):
me that that that faded over timelike that was that was the fight they
won, I guess. Yeah,yeah, a fight nobody seemed to make,
or a fight at all, thoughpretty no homo version of John Constantine,
an extremely no homo version of Constantine. He has like multiple female possible
suitors. Yeah, he's always pickingup birds at the bar, yeah,

(08:24):
yeah, or the comment but butno men, and like there were definitely
instances where I could have seen himin the later version flirting with a guy
to making some kind of comment,right, but yeah, none at all.
And the reason which you found andand relate to me while we were
watching much for the show is justanger inducing. Yeah, I'm gonna read

(08:46):
this whole thing. Yeah, sothis is from the wikia. Uh and
it's a quote again from from cocreator Daniel Servone. Additionally, the characters
bisexuality was not referenced on screen,but Cerphone's saying quote in those comics Constantine's
aged in real time within this toneof three decades of comics. There might
be one or two issues where he'sgetting out of bed with a man,

(09:09):
so maybe twenty years from now,but there's no immediate plans. This was
met with criticism from the LGBT community. I can't imagine why, and I
want to say this as diplomatically aspossible, Fuck you, like what this
shit? Absolutely it makes no sense. He's established in the comics as being
bisexual. But like that whole likereasoning is stupid. Fuck you. Yeah,

(09:33):
be honest and say the network wouldn'tlet us or or we do,
you know, like there is astill shitty and disappointing, but diplomatic way
to say that. This whole thingof like, well, if we get
twenty years with the show, maybehe'll kiss a guy. Like the fuck
off, Like that is not howcomics work, frankly, and you know
that. Yeah. So it's likeand the thing for me is that,

(09:56):
like Matt Ryan was in for Constantinebeing bisexual. I don't know he advocated
for it in the beginning, butcertainly like after fans got upset about it,
he was like, I don't careand then on Legends the character is
like very quickly shown to be bisexualflirts with everybody, which I think makes
the character so much more interesting.Absolutely, And like, yeah, like

(10:16):
the fact that, like he's onlyshown getting out of bed with a man
a couple of times. Who careshe's establishing you as sexual. You have
the opportunity to reinterpret the character,so do it. Yeah, that is
such a false equivalency, you know, a false premise with that, where
it's just like, yeah, wellguess what twenty years ago, DC Vertigo
whatever wouldn't have let him get outof bed with someone like that doesn't count,
you know, like you can't,you can't. I don't know if

(10:39):
Batman were to come out as gaytomorrow or something, you can't be like
well for eighty years, it's likeno, that's now a new part of
the character, and that then thatis something going forward that is now canon.
A bad example, but like whatthe fuck with this? That pissed
me off so much? Yeah,I mean Matt Ryan did say like like
he in his mind, like wedidn't get that far in the story,
so maybe he would have been likelater in, but I'm like, but

(11:01):
what with what the ep said,I don't see that being a thing that
was in any way a priority exactly, And I don't. I don't.
I don't know anything about Daniel Savone, but this feels like someone who had
no intention to fight for that.Oh. Clearly they're like, please let
him smoke, you know. Yeah, like no intention of fighting for that,
and no intention of like not evenjust fighting for it. I think,
no intention of even considering it.Yeah, fairpoint. This was this

(11:24):
was not on the table for them. Like that's like the way just last
thing, the way that quote soundsis, will do that if we run
out of other stuff for him todo? Yeah, exactly, if we
really really have to. I guessin season twenty, fuck you more like
fun and intriguing thing to talk about. Uh, where'd that lady go?

(11:45):
I had the same thought. Sothe pilot is all kind of centered around
this character Live Olivia, and she'sI don't know, the Rachel Weiss,
She's she's the well no z isthe right. Well, that's a good
point. She's the audience surrogate inthe first episode that is now dealing with

(12:07):
the new powers of being somewhat psychicand seeing the dead and can't really deal
with it, and she's going tojoin John and help him in his quest,
and you know we're gonna learn together. And also there's an immortal Cabby
and here we go. But thenquote unquote, the series went in a
new creative direction. She was droppedbefore episode two and they quickly reshot one

(12:31):
scene with her and then a quickbar scene talking about her leaving, and
then that was it. Now,Like story wise, it's kind of impressive
to me that they could do thatthat well, Like there's a lot of
quick dialogue in there, like likethe end of season one of Legends,
where it's like, yeah, we'vegot to get through this in as neat
a way as possible. Yeah,And I think they do a nice job,
but it's still very intriguing to meof like what happened. Yeah,

(12:54):
they do a nice job. WhatI want to know is what new creative
direction? Right, it's still thesame thing. It doesn't feel any different
going into episode two. Yeah,Well that's why it kind of feels like
an actor thing to me. AndI don't know like what side of that
to be on, frankly, butit seems like it was more about the
actor. Then it's either an actorthing, a network note or just like

(13:16):
a writing decision where it was like, well her so her site was different
than Zed'. So like Zed hasactual fures of the future and live had
like the ability to see things forwhat they really were, so like,
she has a very useful skill whenyou're trying to figure out demons when you're
looking for like a trail of demonshit, and she could see like the
smears on the ground or whatever forlike a plot thing. Maybe it wasn't

(13:37):
as interesting as actually showing someone withlike visions. I don't know, because
they they reference her dad more timesbecause they still use that like yeah,
that house that he gave her mh. And she leaves a plot generating
device she does generating, which waswhich was sweet of her before she left.
So I hear what you're saying withthat, But I'm also like,

(13:58):
it's a big daffy Sei show.She could have had that power, you
know, like she could have suddenlyhoned that power in two or three episodes.
I agree with you. I agreewith you that they could have done
other things. So I don't knowwhat the issue is, but I could
see it being like maybe it's anetwork note of like we need something more
visual or I don't know, somethinglike that are maybe these effects are too
expensive, Maybe maybe that's too Yeah, I have I have many questions,

(14:22):
none of which were ever answered becausethe show died and nobody really cares or
remembers the lady from the pilot.I went looking after thinking like, oh,
it's been years, I wonder ifthe story came out. Oh no,
one gives a shit. Okay,Well, what's also funny is that
when they cast z in episode two, other than her ethnicity, she's very
similar in appearance. Yes to liveYeah, yeah, curly haired, dark

(14:45):
hair, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that's a very good point. I
just want to speak Spanish. Idon't know. Yeah, that that was
the new direction. We wanted togo to Mexico for two episodes, so
that we were going to leave findanyway. Okay, so the whatever with
the changing of the actors, butwe do actually have to get into the

(15:05):
act like the plot and the firstepisode. What did you think of the
pilot, because I actually liked Idid like the pilot, but I didn't
think it was awesome. I agreethere there's I like, I'm with the
pilot, and again he's he's likejust from minute one, the Constantine that
we love them legends, like he'sjust magic. Like they're like, there's
no I have no notes for MattRyan, keep doing what you're doing.

(15:26):
But there's there's some really cool darkstuff. I thought throughout the series they
get away with some really cool horrorstuff, especially for a network, you
know. Yeah, but there wasa moment in the pilot when they're broad
daylight in a rental car agency wherelive worked or somebody worked or whatever,
and there's like a zombie coming tolife on the desk of like an Avis

(15:50):
and I'm like, oh, thisis stupid right now. Every time product
placement happens, it's very yeah,yeah, it's I like the pilot.
The thing I think I think theyimproved upon later. I do think that,
like the only note that I haveabout his Constantine is that I think
he loosens up and expands into therole as the series goes on. M

(16:10):
hm, So I think he startsout great, very few notes, but
it does like he does loosen intothe role and he like gets it,
they like makes it a little morehis own. Like throughout this it's very
much a pilot, Like it feelslike a pilot, Yes, totally even
and this is a weird thing,Like it's it's always something I just find
so funny and weird about the character, the fact that he wears the same

(16:30):
goddamn thing every day. It feelsvery costume in the pilot, and he
could be the same actual clothes.I don't know, but like later on
in the series, I'm like,oh, now now that feels fit,
Like now that feels like he's earnedthat. I don't know, it's it's
it's a weird thing. Maybe it'spart of that loosening up or like he's
like he's in the costume now asopposed to like wearing the costume. Yeah,

(16:53):
yeah, yeah, maybe it doesn'tfeel maybe it feels like a costume
to him in the first episode,because it's like the thing with pilots is
they're they're shot so far in advanceof the rest of the series. They're
like, you don't know where thecharacter is gonna go. You don't have
any like runway. Really, it'sjust like, let's get this show picked
up by the network, so let'smake something, and you don't really know
anything about where you're coming from,where you're going. That background hasn't been

(17:15):
built yet, So like, Ithink anyone who writes a cohesive pilot brilliant.
I couldn't agree more. Yeah,and who writes a great pilot give
them all of the money. IncredibleCharmed, Yeah, wonderful pilot. Wonderful,
wonderful, perfect pilot. This thisnot so much. But but you're
right where like they do have topaint in somewhat broader strokes to be like

(17:37):
this is this guy like understand taymenttwo seconds or whatever? You know.
So, one thing that I wouldnote about, like the difference between sort
of the Charmed style of pilot andthe constant in style of pilot, which
that tends to be the more commonone, is you have an audience surrogate
character, as you mentioned, likebeing the audience surrogate, So she's the
character that's being introduced to the worldof the show progress like it's a world

(17:59):
in progress. As in Charmed,you're watching like the audience surrogate is all
the main characters, right, Soyou're only being introduced to as much as
they can learn in forty five minutesversus in like something like Constantine, he
knows everything and he is the maincharacter. So you were catching up,
and I think that you feel alot of so, like the first episode
of this show had a lot ofthere's a lot of stuff that they had

(18:19):
to stuff in the first episode.Yeah, yeah, And I think that's
where I tend to be like,Okay, this feels like a pilot because
it's like you're teaching me a lotreally quickly, Yeah, rather than like
doling it out slowly over time.That's a good point. And I hadn't
thought about this until you said it, but like this very easily could have
been in early days. You know, Constantine year one, as as he's
learning all the magic things, butit's like, no, he's fully cooked

(18:41):
at this point, you know,like he's got all the shit that he's
gonna explain in every episode. Andthis came from Alistair Crowley or whatever,
And yeah, I think technically it'sthe only way I think you could do
Constantine is to like join him inprogress, because year zero could be very
boring. That's that's fair. Learninghow to use magic is not as interesting
as Constantine using magic all the time. Yeah, that's that's a really good

(19:03):
point. And again, you cango back to his his origin story essentially,
you know, his his real traumaand have that drive him and that
you can do a year one episodeor something. Yeah like that. Like
at some point they would have donea flashback to Newcastle the night Astra got
sucked away in that type of thingepisode, and that would have been really
cool, I bet. Uh.Instead the show got canceled and we never

(19:27):
got the end of that Astra story. You never got the end of any
Astras story that's never resolved. Wenever see anything out. No, such
a such a bummer anyway. Uh. The Rising Darkness, Yeah, ah
fine, I thought, sure.I don't really get, like, it's
half a season and they don't resolveit, so I don't really care.

(19:48):
But yeah, that's the thing isthey got into it though eventually. Yeah,
it's so unresolved. I do wonderwhere the season would have ended if
they'd gotten the back nine, orlike what a season two would have looked
like. Yeah, just because likeI am curious how they're going to play
in You assume, like The RisingDarkness is basically Book of Revelation, and
I don't know what that means.I'm a happy little heathen. So in

(20:11):
the Book of Revelation, that's whereyou get the four horsemen. Okay,
And so there's a line where it'sDeath rides upon a white horse and Hell
follows with him. Right, Sois that that's the end of days apocalypse,
that's the end of days? Yeah, So Revelation is all about how
the end of Days will work.Oh, Okay. Some of it brings
in a lot of the stuff thatthey're using in in the show. Okay,

(20:33):
I think that's where you learn aboutLilith. Okay, where come from?
Brew Harria is from what I understandabout a very quick Google search on
this thing. So if you anyoneknows to with these very quick Google search,
if anyone knows anything actually about it, like has any experience with it,
or knows about it, like,feel free to email us and let
us know what it's really about.But so basically it's a it's like a

(20:56):
Latin American version of witchcraft, okay, that combines a lot of different like
belief systems into it. So theyinherited stuff from the Catholics, which is
why like angels and stuff like functionwithin it. They also inherited stuff from
like European tradition, from African Americantradition, and from like regular like indigenous
Latin American tradition, like the stuffthat you would expect. Oh, so
the word is the practice, Theword is the practice. Essentially interesting,

(21:21):
Okay, So it is. It'slike if you said the witches are like
here. But also I think itworks out interestingly because it has some shared
traits with Voodo or Vodu, whichyou see with Papa Midnight, because that
is also like a offshoot of Catholicism, but in like Creole and Haitian culture.

(21:42):
So that I think is very Ithink it's very cool, but I'd
be interested to see how people whoactually still practice these religions feel about being
in this kind of show. Yeah, exactly, because I agree with you
too. I think the pop UMidnight stuff DC deep cut, shout out,
I mean, is really cool.But it's also like he is he

(22:03):
is the villain, and he's likeVoodoo was always like the darkest of magic.
It also passes dark magic, andit's like because of the zombie ism
that is like part of the mythologyof voodoo. But it's like Voodoo Andrea
and probably other faiths are like basicallylike Catholic occultism. Yes, yeah,
totally. Center is a little bitlike that. Yeah, yeah, which

(22:23):
is really interesting to me as someonewho grew up in the Catholic Church and
felt very much every time I wentto church like I was in a cult.
You know. It's just it's interestingto see the way that, like,
you know, the Catholic faith,like you know, changes and alters
in different ways, and these twokinds of religions are one of those ways.
I don't know what the in isthough, Theucha was the faceless,

(22:45):
gnarled demon thing that attacks him inthe sewer in Mexico in one of the
episode That is straight out of thecomics too. I don't know if it's
it's out of a Bible or anotheryou know, again, cult version of
Catholicism. But Catholicism does not teachyou any of these things, even though
they are actual, Like even thoughit would keep someone interested, yeah,

(23:08):
exactly, it would keep someone Itdefinitely keeps someone interested if you wanted to
teach us about, like, youknow, things like this. It is
apparently a legendary monster that protects theentrance to a warlocks cave. Oh sure,
and also yes, is directly fromDC comics. Yeah, I do
you find the way that they combinethe comics and the mythology and stuff like
in interesting ways. I thought theydid really well with that threat. Yeah,

(23:32):
there's some we'll get into our coolDC stuff later, but ultimately,
before we end this this quote unquoterising Darkness thread, the series ends with
the cliffhanger that our guardian angel ofsorts, Manny, who is I think
my second favorite character, you know, that's not Constantine, ultimately is the
one that's that's controlling all this,that that's the brew Harria are working for

(23:56):
him and he's starting the end days. And does that mean that he's actually
a fall An angel and been disguisingthis whole time, or is he an
angel you know, working against Heavenor God, you know, like who
the hell knows. Anytime a TVshow like this or popular media or something
adapts the Catholic faith or Christianity inparticular in a critical way where they're like

(24:19):
taking those stories and turning them intolike they're real, but also like there's
a darker side. I'm thinking likeSupernatural, Okay, I'm thinking that the
Terrible Noah movie with the rock Monsters. Yeah, well the rock Monsters were
technically the Nephelin. I know,they're real in the Bible, were giants
that were created by fallen angels becausethat happens early in the movie. That's

(24:41):
a weird ass movie. They're inGenesis, or yeah, they're in Genesis.
But so like there's this idea thatlike in a lot of this media.
So like if you if you watchSupernatural through the fifth season, which
is as far as I ever went, because it has a really great ending,
and I was like, don't really, that's amazing ending with more seasons
they thought they were right, Yeah, Yeah, there's this whole thing in

(25:03):
it about how the angels are ableto manipulate humanity like this, and like
Lucifer is able to do that becauseLucifer is also an angel because God doesn't
care. Okay, basically like Godstops, God stop caring about humanity a
long time ago and just doesn't.He's an absent basically an absent father,
and it's all his kids just likescrewing around and trying to get trying to
like create power for themselves, playingwith the toys, and so the angels

(25:27):
are always like you know, likethey have all this power, but they
all have equal amounts of power,so like they're trying to manipulate humanity in
these ways because God doesn't care andthey're pissed off because their dad's gone or
whatever. And then if you getsomething like historic materials, it's the same
thing, except instead of God doesn'tcare, is that God is a figurehead,

(25:47):
So like they've maintained this extremely oldangel in this box forever as a
figurehead and to maintain power over humanity. But it's always like that angels are
fallible people basically, right, Sothat's how I kind of viewed it.
I wondered for a long time whilewatching the show if Manny was supposed to
be Michael, Oh, the angel. Yeah, Michael is the is the

(26:08):
main archangel and he got a movieyeah yeah, in Christianity, and he
he's actually the one who fought inthe battle with Lucifer okay, during the
fall, so like because of hislike thing with fallen angels and like his
ability to defeat the one fallen angelthat in that one episode, like certain
things that he does. I wonderedif he was supposed to be Michael and

(26:30):
he was just using the name Mannyas like a disguise. I don't know.
There's a lot of cooling angel Rightnow, there's a lot of cool
stuff that I think you could dowith the story later on, and I
would I wonder what the plan wasfor Manny, Like was he supposed to
be? Was he supposed to bean archangel? Was he supposed to be
a fallen angel as you suggested allthe right? Is he bad or a

(26:52):
fake out too? Or is hetrying to bring about the end of days
because it's some kind of ultimate equalizer? Right, exactly right. But things
are gonna be okay as long asJohn Constantine is there and stays on his
path and does yeah like he's he'straining both sides so that it will create
an ending that he is hoping for. Yeah, yeah, it probably could

(27:15):
have been cool, Like you know, the things we don't like about what
these producers have set aside, ingeneral, the plot stuff here is kind
of cool, Like, I thinkthey could have pulled something interesting off.
But are you a big hell raizorfan, Like, did you read the
comics? No, I've read somenow, going back, I was a
bigger yeah hellblazer. I was abigger swamp thing fan. So I think

(27:41):
probably to this day, the mostI've seen of Constantine is him and like
the Swamp thing and the Sandman comics. You know, but I've gone back
and read like the Astra one,you know, like the kind of important
stuff just because I like the character. I don't know how much this like
war between heaven and Hell factors intohis whole thing. I don't know.

(28:04):
Yeah, I assume quite a bitbecause he's an exorcist, and because like
it also factored into the film,the very loosely adapted film, But like,
I don't know, because my questionis like, how much do you
like it when shows do all thisheaven and Hell stuff? Like does it
does it alienate you as someone whodoesn't like Yeah, he yes, honestly
it does it? It kind ofI think early on they played a little

(28:27):
bit looser with it, and thenas we were going and we got into
fallen angels and stuff like that,I'm like, oh, okay, we
are taking you know, the Bibleis as canon essentially, Okay, I
guess we're here. Then, likethere's some really cool religion stuff later on

(28:48):
that I thought where it's like maybeit's the episode where like the guy gets
the power, the Preacher gets thepower to heal people, but it's also
yeah, it's it's a perversion essentially, But I think zed is like what
like you've seen you talked to anangel, like why are you still cynical
and an asshole? And basically John'slike because evil still Like I've seen that

(29:12):
there's good stuff, but I've alsoseen how powerful evil is, Like that's
why you know, like that that'sreally interesting to me. But earlier on
too, I thought it was coolthat he would pull out as he does
in legends, like a Chinese spell, it a a Mexican spell or whatever,
you know, like an Egyptian spell, like he is he's gone beyond

(29:34):
the Christian canon and really like studiedall these magics from around the world,
And I would have liked that toplay into the like so called heaven and
God stuff a little bit more.Yeah, I think there's probably a more
interesting version of these types of stories. I'm thinking like supernatural like this.
Honestly, like his dark material islike anything that involves like creating a reality

(29:56):
out of like some kind of religiousmythology that like it would be cool if
you could create kind of like unifyingidea, Yes, but that'd be nice
in the real world too, right, it would be wonderful if you could,
but like, you know, honestlychoose the bits of each religion that
is real and like how they worktogether. And the coolest version of this
is completely devoid of religion essentially,and it's the good place where like,

(30:18):
yeah, the only explanation they giveis like, everybody got a few things
right, I don't know what youwant me to say. The one guy
they got closest was just really high. Yeah, the word demon is actually
kind of racist, but you canuse it. I guess it's fine,
you know. Yeah, So yeah, I think it's always interesting. But
that's because of like the way thatI was raised, and you know,
the things that that I have inmy background. Like I've had friends who've

(30:41):
told me, like the we're inyou know, we're in October, the
Mike Flanagan series Midnight Mass that likethey liked it, but that I would
probably have a totally different approach toit because I was raised religious, And
they're right, like, there's alot of stuff that's like directly referencing religion
that if you don't have that background, you do not yet interesting. Okay,

(31:02):
So I do think that, likeI wonder about that because I come
from that background. There's so muchlike Christian or Catholic religion in like certain
especially fantasy type stories like this,that I wonder like how it really works
for other people. But anyway,I mean, I too was raised in
a Christianish Methodist so you know,lazy Christian household, but still like I

(31:26):
was, just I never really connectedwith it or got into it at all.
So yeah, I know enough toget by in like a movie or
a TV show. That's about itanyway, enough about religion. Astra looms
large throughout the whole thing. Yeah, John in the Pilot almost trades Pilot
Lady Live for Astra, which Ithink is a really cool pirate pilot thing

(31:49):
for him to go to. Andreally, if he knew that she was
gonna leave, maybe it could haveserved us some time. But also it
wasn't Astra. It was a deemokay fair. Yeah, Yeah, it's
funny that they not funny but interestingthat they carry this idea that like,
if John has ever given the opportunityto save Astra, he saves, he's
kind of think about it. Yeahexactly. Also mom stuff. Also he's

(32:13):
damned to hell maybe yeah that talkabout it. Yeah, like it's this
whole thing where when he was banishingAstra, like he also damned his soul
or something. Oh that's where ithats. Okay, that's where it comes
from. According to such a badrewatch. I don't remember it actually ever

(32:35):
being said, but there's a wholething where he's going to hell except that,
like they never really talk about it. I almost like it better the
way they do it in the movie, even though I don't love it in
the movie. I like it too, where he's he's he's like killing himself
because he's gonna die anyway with cigarettesand stuff. Yeah, but because he
had tried to kill himself before andhe was saved or whatever, he is

(32:59):
damned to hell because he tried tokill himself, And like, I don't
like that part of Catholicism at all. So I don't love that as a
as a thing that happens, butin a yeah, yeah, yeah,
if you're trying to figure out away to damn him to hell, that
makes sense, Like that does makesense. But yeah, then he gets
saved because it's a whole selfless thing. At the end from Lucier, I

(33:21):
wanted to kill you so because youcan't go to heaven. You have to
go back to the earth and likefuck up again so that I can I
can have you later. The momstuff though, the mom stuff is it
looms so much larger over this seriesthan it ever does in Legends. Yes,
it's interesting, like he's so hungup on this this thing about how

(33:42):
his mom died in childbirth, likeI and they never really get into why.
No, I guess, just complicationsor whatever, right like magic,
no, no, No, it'sjust that she died. But it's it's
like you would expect that the waythey talk about it so much, and
the fact that z I guess talkedto her at some point in one of
her visions and like, you know, gave him a message. They there's
so much of that, even thoughit's just like the thing that made him

(34:06):
upset about it, other than hismom being dead, is the fact that
his dad called him a killer allthe time. Right, Well, that's
the trauma of it, right yeah, Yeah, but dad was clearly abusive
too. Yeah, you would expectthat there would be some kind of like
follow up, maybe there would bein a future episode. And that's the
thing that's so frustrating about this islike there are all these threads that I
wonder if they would have picked themup, yeah later, and they just

(34:28):
never had time. I don't know. It kind of feels a little orphananity
to me, where it's just likeyou'll always fantasize about the parent parents that
weren't there, and I bet thingswould have I bet I would have been
happier if mom had been around.But I killed her in draw a birth
or whatever. Yeah, and likehe believes that he's the killer whatever,
because like, and that was areason for the person that raised me to

(34:49):
hate me for the rest of mylife. Because there's that episode later in
season four of Legends where he triesto stop his kick his dad and the
balls. Yeah, like you makeit so he can't have him or whatever.
But and he has a he hasa drink with mom at the bar,
right. Yeah, Yeah, that'sthat's good stuff. Here's a question
for him. Do we need tostop by the ship log? I think

(35:12):
we need to talk about it alittle bit, if only for the one
thing that you have in here.Okay, yeah, because like I I
personally don't care and I'm kind ofusing the shiplog because like I don't care
about the other characters in the showsso much. I don't think Chaz is
that compelling an actor, so I'lljust call him Chaz. Z's fine,
but also not super duper compelling tome. So personally, the only thing

(35:36):
I care about in the ship logis the fact that John makes out with
Anne Marie the nun in a churchat some point, and that's just that's
just fucking Constantine gold right there.Yeah, she was a part of the
Newcastle team and uh, you knowthere the night that Astro got dragged to
hell and and seemingly got John intothe real darker occult magics. So blames

(36:00):
herself for all these things and iskind of quote unquote retired into being a
nun in Mexico, who then wehang out with for two episodes, And
after those two episodes, I'm like, please come back, you know,
like you rock. What's interesting Ithink about her when she talks to him
is like, you know, youdon't have a plane, and religion has
a plan for her to deal withthe darkness, Like there's a prescribed way

(36:23):
that we deal with this, andit's in this book that I can read.
I like that you have no plan. You dabble in everything and you
don't right now, you are chaos. Yeahah, you are chaos, and
this is this, this is strict, this makes sense. So yeah,
I would love for like her tocome back and like be part of the
solution, right, Yeah, totallyLike using Catholic, I could see like

(36:44):
him mixing up with people of youknow, various faiths and backgrounds and they
all have to like play a partin fixing whatever is going wrong. That's
super cool. And also like Ilike how you laid that out, Like
this is such an interesting character.Like after you've seen something that dark and
that terrible, of course you retreatto like the safety net of Like no,
if I just follow one path,there's a book that tells me how

(37:05):
to do it, you know,Yeah, like there's I can read this
and I know what's going to happen. I know what I need to do,
and I know what's going on.Granted it's widely up for interpretation and
changes every time someone translates it,but still, right, It's like in
real life when when people go throughan illness or whatever and they come out
more religious at the end. I'mlike, I get like, whatever gets
you through, I really do understand. I absolutely understand why people are religious.

(37:29):
I just personally am not because itworks for me. You know,
if it works for you, thenthat's what works for you the same anyway.
So that's like the only kind ofinteresting character pairing that I have in
the show. How do you feelabout others? I mean, so I
don't really, like you said,like, they never really give any time
to these other characters to make theminteresting. There is the one Chaz episode.

(37:49):
I agree that the emotional thing didnot hit as hard as it could
have. Yeah, they give zedlike a few bits and pieces, but
there's a part of me that justwishes she was like a larger part of
the overall thing with this, withthe story. Yeah, like there was
a part of me that wanted Andone of the things that I had said
while I was watching it was like, there's a part of me that wishes
that the mystery of her drove theseries more. Yeah, totally get played

(38:14):
more into like sort of like constantines, like figuring things out so that you
know, the finale ends up theactual finale of the season that they got
the back nine actually like is figuringout where her visions really come from.
And yeah, that's fine. Everor even like I know, I know,
not everybody can be part of theNewcastle team, but I'm like,
well, she Astra was dragged tohell, which meant that Lucifer gave give

(38:36):
up someone else and it was zedSoul or you know, like that's like
there was a and I know she'sa comic book character, so maybe that
would have been sac with it justin its own way, but like,
yes, I wish she was tiedin a little bit more. Yeah,
like just in for me, itwas always like the overall plotting of of
the series just did not give enoughtime to background characters because this is about
Constantine. We're gonna focus on Constantina. We're only going to like really develop

(38:59):
Constantine. Yeah, it's up ina few ways, but very few totally.
And I think the show knew thatthey weren't really hitting with the other
characters too, because like even inthe Chaz episode, Constantine takes it over,
and even after like in episode likeeleven or twelve or what like later
in the run, they are completelywilling to drop Chazz and z for an

(39:20):
episode with like John and the gueststar. You know, it's like,
yeah, you know, you don'treally need them. There's a lot of
episodes that start with like, well, Zed's still recovering from whatever the hell
happened last week, so I guessit's just us this time. Yeah,
like the whole Mexico thing, likeyou're just recovering. It's like, I
speak Spanish, why are you notbringing me to Mexico? Or you do
not speak Spanish? At least inthat episode they start with her whole backstory

(39:44):
thing of like she's she's the profitof a cult basically and doesn't want to
be be a part of that anyway. Yeah, which I did. I
feel like I missed a transition pointon that. I got so confused for
a second. But the reason Imentioned sorry, the reason I mentioned Zed
in the shiplog is because they havelike that thing in the last episode with
her and Jim. Yeah, andlike Constantine's jealous or something. No stop,

(40:04):
I don't right, But also,why is she making out with Jim
Corrigan since we already know his fate? Right, because because he looks dead
every time she looks at him,Like that's bizarre. But okay, what
was I gonna say? Oh,in the Chazz thing, like there could
be something really cool about that,especially if he had a little bit more
of a chip on his shoulder,because the whole thing is, he's not

(40:25):
immortal, but he's got like fortyeight souls or something. He's got forty
eight lives to live, you know, Selena Kyle Batman return style. Yeah,
because of a spell of protection thatJohn did drunkenly one night without even
thinking about it, and like thatis that is such an interesting friendship right
where it's just like, yeah,you saved my life, but fuck you

(40:49):
for this, And they never reallyhit the fuck you for this hard enough
that I think would have made hima little more compelling. I agree.
What's some cool evil stuff that youlike? Are you a horror boom We've
fan in general? Yeah? Ingeneral, I'm a horror movie fan.
Yeah, Okay, I like,yeah, I love the horror elements that
they introduced, and this, likeit made me think of so many different

(41:12):
things that I wish had happened otherthan this, this series being better and
longer, which, like you know, I I wish that they had done
when they'd done Batwoman, that theyactually used the horror elements of the comics
that of those chores, you know, the whole first arc is so good
and nothing ever comes of it ina series, which is such a bummer
because that was what set it apartfrom Batman or like, I kept thinking

(41:35):
about how I wish the DREASD andFile series had been good because those yeah,
yeah, so like I really likethe books past the first one.
The first one's terrible, but therest of them are very good, and
they do a lot of the similarstuff, Like anytime an angel popped up
in Constantin, I was like,oh, I wish we'd had all this
stuff from nothing. So there werea lot of horror elements that I really
liked. I didn't really love theDevil's Vinyl thing personally, but that's just

(41:59):
my part small thing. I lovedthe snake episode episode the pastor who like
has the snakes like he does thethat's like an actually, oh yeah Christianity.
Yes, they like kind of ofa Southern revival. Yeah. It's
like, yeah, I can't rememberthe actual like name of it, but
it's like it's something similar to likePentecostals or like, yeah, Southern Revival

(42:20):
something like that, where it's likethey're using snakes and because of the snake
references in the Bible. It's likea whole thing and that God will protect
you. And I like any ofthe stuff that involves like the angels,
and especially I like the fallen angelstuff in that episode a lot. Yeah,
that was really cool. And thenwhat other cool stuff that I like?
I mean, I didn't The lastepisode was fine but not my favorite.
Yeah, okay, it was neatthe whole black Diamond thing was cool.

(42:44):
Yeah, well, okay, let'sget into some of this because I'm
sure that listeners have no idea whatany of that. And like, it's
not a bad series. If youcan find it for free or cheap,
like, by all means, gofor it, but let's lay some of
this stuff out. I like,you can't invest, yeah exactly. I
liked that Legends doesn't really have timefor this frankly, but I like that
the magic is more practical here ingeneral. But I did like stuff like

(43:08):
you mentioned the Devil's Vinyl. That'san that's an episode where apparently there's this
record that was recorded and and hashas a demon or the Devil's voice or
whatever on it and can make yougo crazy. And that was something that
scaredy cat me ten years ago orwhatever. Was watching that episode going like,
don't play it. I don't wantto hear it. Why is a

(43:29):
child? Yeah, and it's verythe ring I think, you know,
like plot wise, but I thinkstuff like that was cool. There's an
episode where he's up against basically thespirits of dead miners and that's really cool.
And they are they are what amI trying to say? They're manifesting

(43:52):
as like muddy earth people, andin one scene it winds up being that
a witch is controlling them, butlike the witch and the miners fill up
his the car that he's in withwhoever in that episode with mud and then
there's like demon hands coming out ofthe mud and holding him under the water
so that he drowns in the car. And I'm like, that's fucking cool.

(44:13):
Like that stuff was really interesting tome. And then the fact that
he he doesn't vanquish those coal miners, he kind of like speaks to them
out of respect for what they are, and that like gets them to understand
what's going on, that they're beingmanipulated by the witch, and then they
drave the witch to hell basically,and I'm like that's really cool too,
where like he's not just firing atat evil things. He understands what's going

(44:37):
on, you know, like theseare these are lost in said and angry
souls, Let's talk to them likethat. Yeah, I would have liked
more nuance like that, which Idon't think we really got no which you
know that What's what makes the episodekind of interesting is that it has all
that nuance and it also the factthat it starts sound looking at it going
is that Licia Haley. Yep,it's just like this is weird, gonna

(45:00):
come. She should not be inthis series. That's very strange. So
that was that was interesting. Alsojust seeing her straight it was weird.
But that and then like what elseis cooled? So the reason that I
wasn't like interested in the Devil's Vinylas much, and honestly even something that
they could probably could have done withlike the coal Minor story or other stories,

(45:21):
is like they could have done morewith the lore, Like I think
it would have been cool if therecord was like a record recorded by Robert
Johnson, who was like the godfatherof rock and roll music, Like he's
he played Southern blues, early daysof southern blues, and like his stuff
is what you can trace like almostall of Rock and Roll back to his

(45:43):
era of the Blues, and heis like, there was this legend that
he had gone to the Frost Roadsand made a deal with the devil for
his talent and it costs. Yeah, and then because it's like it's like
a blues record too, Yeah,because that was and they just make up
some guy that recorded it. Ithink, Yeah, I think it would

(46:04):
have been great if they'd added moreto that lore and like tied it to
something historic, like even like somethinglike Robert Johnson who had a very would
Yeah, he had a very tragiclife, and and that was always part
of his mythology was that he hadlike keeped gone there and made a deal
with the devil. One I waslike, ohways that one it's going to
be And it wasn't that, AndI was like, ah, so close.
That's cooler. Like could the coalminor thing have been a Golam situation?

(46:27):
Right? I kind of felt like, but yeah, like more explicitly,
get deeper into the mythology rather thanI felt a lot of it was
kind of surface level, especially inthe first half. I think the first
half was fine and the second halfwas a lot better, but the second
half did lean a lot harder intomythology, which I think is why I
thought it was better. Yeah,I agree with you there, but again

(46:49):
it does I'm impressed with the showthat again like kind of taking cues from
the Keano movie. It is doingthat dark, practical magic thing as best
can. Like the other thing Ireally liked is when one of the Newcastle
gang shows up and he's like,I tried to vanquish a demon and put
him in a bottle and it gotfucked up. And in that whole episode,

(47:10):
like basically a demon had been caughtin a person and once it was
like possessed, you know, onceit had possessed this person, you scar
the person's head with these sigils andwhatever, and then the demon can't get
out. Yeah, but instead thisguy put it in a bottle that got
out, and then he winds upbeing the sacrificial vessel at the end that

(47:30):
they cast the demon into him andthey scar him in that, and I'm
like, this is really cool allof Like the visual of the guy with
the scars is cool. The ideathat you can put a demon in a
bottle like a genie and that doesn'twork out and how the demon manifest in
the episode's cool. And then justlike seeing John realize even before his friend
does that, like, I'm gonnaactually fuck my friend who's had a tough

(47:53):
life and been in and out ofdrug situations and whatnot, and he's gonna
be the vessel for this thing,and that's gonna be his punishment for Like
that, that was interesting. Thatwas very interesting, and I think in
part again because it's got that nuanceof like John having to make a choice,
yeah, and in this case makinga really terrible choice. Yeah,
you know, to essentially kill hisfriend to become a demon vessel because it

(48:15):
can't be put in a bottle,and like, you released it, so
this is your penance to pay.And I liked that a lot. Like
that resolution was really good. Sometimesit was like, oh, okay,
so it just ended sort of theway that we expected it to end.
Most of the time, yes,but like those episodes were always very interesting.
But yeah, that's that's a darkthat's a dark ending for this.

(48:36):
Also, the end of the lastepisode is dark as shit. It's very
vigilante cop basically, but but thisguy has been abducting and killing girls to
make him there to make them hisHell brides and whatever, and John basically
in the episode, walks into hishouse realizes it smells funky. The's something

(48:59):
wrong. He goes into this bedroomwhere we saw these girls get out of
bed earlier, but turns out thoseare ghosts and these girls' corpses have just
been under the sheet in this bedfor however long. And at the end
of the episode they stop him andit's him and Zed and Jim Corrigan,
who we'll get to, who's acop, and they're basically like, if

(49:19):
if he goes back in the legalsystem, this is just going to keep
hat like he's still going to beconnected to Hell. And they don't show
it, but essentially him or Jimgo and just murder the guy. Yeah.
Dark, But I kind of getit for like the world that these
characters inhabit. I'm like, interesting, you know, yeah, for the
for the world they're in and thereality of what that would have been,

(49:43):
like, you know, Constant canclearly say like this is going to happen
further. I do get it,but it is something that's difficult, and
I think it's something that probably helpsin Jim Corgan's eventual future but like it's
that was really dark, and Iunderstand like the reason that they went there
that's typically is supposed to be likeConstantine's whole last conversation I think with Manny

(50:04):
where he talks about like this ishumanity being awful. This isn't demons.
This is a guy who decided todo this. He was not you know,
pushed to do it, right,He decided to become this person and
do these horrible things to young girls, and it like the devil took notice
essentially, yea, yeah, Likehow do I fight that? Yeah?
Like how how you're telling me thatthis is just going to keep happening because

(50:27):
there's rising darkness and that rising darknessalso means darkness in humanity and like that
that also is interesting. That wholeconversation was interesting to me. Yes,
And as far as them being vigilanteswho see the things that are going on
that society obviously doesn't see, Ilike that doesn't feel like character assassination or
anything to me. Like I thinkthat is that is a legitimate take on

(50:49):
that situation and understanding that like theonly way to stop this particular cycle of
abuse is to kill this guy,and that that's just really cool. That's
that's the type of dark stuff thatthat you know, we're never going to
have time for in Legends, norwould it feel appropriate on Legends. But
it's it's it's cool that they tooktheir shot here, you know. Yeah,
it only works in the show that'sintended to be dark. Yes,
yeah, yeah. I think thereare some cool villains. I think there's

(51:12):
a lot of potential, and Ijust I wish we'd gotten more into the
one thing that we didn't talk aboutthat you have listed in Practical and Evil
stuff is the practical magic hands firehands. Yeah, let's get into spells and
stuff in general. You had textedme during the rewatch, and I had
clocked it earlier too. But thefirst time we see him do the now
famous John Constantine fire hands, it'son our pino card. Yeah, it's

(51:34):
the end of the pilot and hetakes out a Zippo lighter and takes out
the the cotton or whatever is inthere, douses his hands in lighter fluid
and then lights them up. AndI'm like, that's cool. Yeah,
very I mean, it's cool,but also like I felt like it was
less cool than his like usual firehands. That were used to than just
the charmed version of the magic.Yeah, there's the magic firehands. Like

(51:57):
I thought that was really cool.And the first like I'm watching, she
can like pours all over his handsand I'm like, is he what's happening
on fire? And I was like, oh, and so I was like
organic not organic firehands with what's happening? Yeah, it was. It was
crazy to watch, like the firsttime it ever happened, and then the
way that it evolves into just athing that he does it was very funny.

(52:20):
Yeah, he just got better atit, that's all. Yeah,
yeah, basically, but it's avery cool practical effect that I always like,
very very cool. But like there'slittle stuff like that throughout this whole
series. There's an episode I forgetwhich episode, but he's got a pickled
hand of a dead man or whatever, and they light the fingers of it
on fire, and for as longas those fingers are lit, the dead
around you will be reanimated. Andit's kind of a pushing Daisy's moment where

(52:44):
he has to talk to a corpsefor a second. But of course they're
doing it in the morgue, soimmediately all the body bags and the freezers
and whatever are starting to bang becauseeverybody's coming back awake. But he's just
trying to talk to this one thingfor as long as the hand is lit
and it the castor like a coupleof days of their life for doing that.
And I'm like, this is allcool and dark, like I'm into

(53:06):
all of this. I mean,it's based on the Hand of Glory.
Oh tell me about this. TheHand of Glory is like a thing in
some kind of like lore where it'sa it's the pickled hand of a hanged
man. It sometimes has to bethe left hand, and sometimes it has
to be a person who is killedbecause he murdered someone. Sure, but

(53:27):
it's supposed to be. It basicallyacts like a candle and you light it
on fire like the hand the fingerson fire as like a candlestick. And
I can't remember exactly what it's supposedto be able to unlock doors or to
like it like, it's used indifferent ways, so like it shows up
in the Harry Potter books, itshows up in Marvel comics and different for
different reasons. I can't remember why. But yeah, it's like a thing

(53:47):
that pops up in anything that usesmagic where it's this, okay, cool
hand. So this is a twiston that idea that's out there, twist
on a on a like a thingthat's in a bunch of different I can't
remember exactly where it came from originally, but it's like it's like folklore thing,
Yeah, okay, cool, likelike trapping a demon in a bottle
like a genie. Yeah, yeah, like that another just like cool recurring
thing that there could have been roomfor on Legends. He's got this bewitched

(54:10):
playing card. It's just the theyou know, the five of whatever,
but it's it reminds me of athing from the Greater Men in Black lore
of the carte Blanche card, whereit's just like he will say, whatever
his qualifications are, you know,like, hey, i'm with the FBI,
let me into this crime scene andshow this playing card, and the

(54:30):
power of suggestion will make people seelike his idea as an FBI agent or
whatever it is. Like, Ijust think that's a cool thing. And
that is one of the few thingsthat kind of like recurs in the series.
They set it up once, theyexplain it once, and then there's
a few episodes later on where it'sjust like he's pulling out his playing card
and showing people and whatever. Soit's similar to doctor whose psychic paper,

(54:51):
oh so shows he shows a blankpiece of paper to anyone, and it's
like whatever he tells them he isis on the ID is on the thing
already. Yeah, that's cool.So there were these Talian novels to the
Men in Black movie before there wasa second Men in Black movie back in
the nineties, and they had acarte blanche card where like Agent J would
be like, hey, I'm withthe EPA and he'd pull it out and

(55:14):
he'd always check before he showed itto someone, but of course the thing
had listened to him already and becomeEPA and that type of deal. So
that's just all that reminded me ofany other stuff before we get into fun
things like I feel like we talkedabout the religious parts of the show the
whatever. I don't know. Ithink we talked about the religious stuff.
I like one of the notes thatyou have is like Manny asking Image about

(55:37):
pain because she's experiencing pain because she'sfallen to earth. Yeah, I agree
that that was cool. Angel BuddyManny is talking to what We then think
is a fallen angel but still agood person. But she's mortal. For
a second, imagen about what painis like and what it felt like the
first time sunlight hit her body,and like, isn't that a gift in
that type of thing. Yeah,I never quite understood exactly what the goal

(56:00):
was with her, with the featherand everything, but it's basically like in
order to appear on Earth, shehad fallen for whatever reason, and now
she has to like basically like helpa human corrupt people or I don't know
what it is. Yeah, butshe was an angel that was ferrying him
away, we thought, because shepresents herself all angelically to heaven, but

(56:23):
she was taking him to Hell.She wasn't ferrying him at all. I
don't believe she He was being takento heaven and she set herself up in
front of the gates of Hell andnot being taken to Heaven. He was
being taken to Hell. He wasgoing to hell, to Hell, and
she set herself up in front ofthe gates of Hell and basically like pretended
that it was Heaven, gave himthe feather and then sent him back to
Earth. And the whole goal wasto get him to help her get out

(56:45):
of hell. Okay, I'm onto Earth, like break through the Seal.
I thought any of the angel stuffI thought was cool because I always
liked delving into like the angelic mythologyand stuff that's neat. So I liked
that whole conversation. I liked theidea of Manny, and I really wish
we'd gotten more so we could seemore of what his plan was, totally,
more of what the idea was behindall that. So that was cool.

(57:07):
Anytime that they use, like Isaid, any time they use other
religions, like anytime they brought theVoto stuff in, I wish they'd done
more of it. Like all thePapa Midnight stuff was interesting, awesome,
So yeah, all that was reallycool, and I it's one of those
like I wish we'd seen more,if only to see what they were gonna
do with the mythology. Yeah,Papa Midnight too, Like let's get into

(57:27):
the DC stuff of this. Butlike they do sprinkle in characters where they
can. Most the three big onesare Papa Midnight, Jim Corrigan, and
Felix Faust. Yeah, as faras I can see, Papa Midnight in
the Comics does have he is thepickled Head or you know, the shrunken
head whatever of his sister, whoI think is her soul is in Hell.

(57:49):
So he can speak to this headand it will speak back to him
and it's basically like a radio toHell of like what's going on. And
they use it in the series onceor twice, which is really cool.
Jim Corrigan kind of blew my mind. You know, Jim Corrigan will become
the Specter. He's he's a copwho dies and then becomes basically this kind
of very very unsympathetic god in theDC universe. But it's crazy too to

(58:17):
see, Like in his episodes theyjust call him Jim Corrigan. We don't
get into the origins or that whathe's gonna be yet, but in all
of those episodes they've got a creditthat is Specter, co created by Jerry
Siegel, who was also, ofcourse a co creator of Superman. It's
just like, Oh, Jesus Christ, that's cool to see here. Yeah,
that's That's one of those things thatI feel like if I didn't know
who Jim Corgan was, I wouldbe like googling Spector. Why is this

(58:40):
having up? Ye like where's theSpecter? Like I know who specter is?
What is? Yeah? So thatwas That's funny. And of course
some different actor when we meet himin Crisis, yes, which is which
has dealt with very quickly in aline there too, but I don't remember
exactly what it was. I don'tremember either the multiverse or whatever. It's

(59:00):
like it's like not the one youknew or something. Oh. I think
John's line is like you're not theJim Corgan. I know, Well that's
because of this, Yeah, don'tworry about it. Yeah, it was
just funny because like I didn't knowwhat the hell was going on with that
that line, because I've never knowConstantine. That's funny. Yeah, But
again, like the the era versecaring enough to keep up the continuity of

(59:22):
like, no, this is thatJohn. Yeah. And then in one
episode I think it's the Chaz episode, right, yeah, where Chaz's daughter
is her soul is taken, wethink, given to a demon, but
no, it's being collected first bycomics villain Felix Faust played by Mark Margolis,

(59:43):
who is a character actor for aMillion Things, but probably best known
for as Hector in Breaking Bad.He was Ace vent Surea's landlord, you
know, like he's just been ineverything, but cool to see him pop
up and just the idea that like, wow, someone's in their costume kind
of you know, he's in likethe blue and gold robes for a second,
and it's like, oh wow,we really are digging into this kind

(01:00:07):
of periphery of the DC mythology here. It's fun to seem, yeah,
very much. It's fun. Likethat episode was funny because that's the episode
where in the very beginning he's talkingto Zen and he mentioned something about Alistair
Crowley, yes, and then heuses the thing later, but so I
was like, oh, Alisa Crowleyreference, and then like literally five minutes

(01:00:27):
later, Felix Foul shows up andI'm like, never mind, never mind,
that's a bigger one. Yeah,that's a much bigger reference right there.
I it makes me think, likewho else they could have gotten?
And I still I feel like theAero verse could have done this. There's
a million places where he could havepopped up. I am waiting for Jason
Blood and etric Yea in this show. Yeah, they could have done that

(01:00:51):
so well in this show and chosentheir CG moments for Ettrican or done a
suit or whatever. I would havebeen rad How many seasons of way do
you think we are from seeing Zatanain Constantine in Constantina. Oh, had
Constantine continued on? You know,they've got twenty years or so until he
becomes gay. So right, soyou gotta get the Tenna in there somewhere.

(01:01:15):
I could see Satanna showing up inlike a season two season three situation.
Yeah, I think that makes sense. Yeah. By season four,
though, I want Chason Blood tobe a regular, right right, like
the whole Justice League Dark to showup somehow, Yeah, totally. Yeah,
if not a swamp thing, bringin an Alex pre swamp thing,
you know, like whatever. Yeah, yeah, do the Corgan thing with

(01:01:35):
him anyway. And then there's likeother DC references throughout. There's like Ivy
University in an episode. There's there'sobviously the Helm of Naboo, the Psycho
Pirates, Medusa mask. There's anotherDC deep cut in his like super cool
set, his like Secret Layer isvery cool. I don't know. I

(01:02:00):
don't listen steam like it's a goodshow, but again, there was nothing
there to hold on to, andthere obviously goes nowhere. It's just interesting
to look back now knowing what othershows have done with the character and see
where he came from. Yeah,exactly, and how he changed in the
different choices that they made on Legendsversus the show. The one thing I
do want to mention because it's somethingthat I think I want you to talk
about. Is you mentioned to methat you now understand his will better?

(01:02:23):
Yes? Okay, this was athis is a Legends deep cut that references
this show directly. But in seasonfive episode whatever, Mortal Kanbat where they're
going up against Genghis Khan in likemodern day John is dealing with like his

(01:02:43):
cancer has been sped up, right, Yeah, it was like Astro was
mad at John for reasons, andso she has his soul coin and she
gives it to Laksis before we knowthat it's Lakisa' it's just this a woman
that she worked, like works withor whatever. This is nice lady in
hell, just this nice lady inhell that helped phrase her. She like
opens it up and there's like gearsinside and she turns it to make like
he's gonna die of lung cancer anyway. So we're just gonna speed up the

(01:03:04):
timeline, and so he gets likewrap it on set lung cancer yep.
And as he's dying in that episodeand trying different magical fixes and they're not
working, he just like longhand writesout a will and makes Gary the executor.
And the only reason that we knowthis too is they maybe Matt,
I don't know, someone posted itduring when that episode aired or during production

(01:03:25):
or whatever. I don't think wesee like an insert shot of it in
the show. I don't think soeither, because I never knew beyond the
Gary stuff what was in it.Right, he makes Gary the executor.
But there's three things in this willthat are cool. The sort of Night
is to be given to Papa midnight, with the stipulation that he's not told
what it is and he has toopen it in public. The sort of
Night is a prop in the showthat is basically the less of truth,

(01:03:47):
right, like Chaz holds it orsomebody holds it and like confesses something and
John's like, oh, stay awayfrom that plate or whatever. You know.
The other thing is you mentioned thisearlier, the Shock of the Black
Diamond, which is which is likepure evil in form basically right, and
it's been like shattered and there aredifferent pieces in different places, and they're

(01:04:10):
attracted to each other, right,So, like we've collected some at the
end of one episode and in hiswill he's saying to give those to Chaz
and he'll guard them whatever. Andthen the sacred Cusakusa knife something like that.
I don't know, there's a thingwhere they have to steal a sacred
knife from a museum in an episodehere, and it's basically to be returned

(01:04:34):
to the the deity, the spiritthat had it, and with the apology
for having stolen in the first place. And I'm like, that is that's
so cool? Yeah, that thatsomeone on Legends, you know, the
writing staff whatever, made the noteto then send that to the prop team
and probably Tawny wrote that note outand made it the prop or whatever.

(01:04:55):
But it's like, that's rad thatthey cared that much that they're making references
like that in Jim Corgan years intokind of owning this character. Yeah,
very much. So I like allthe callbacks and I like that they you
know, they're very much were likewe are now the stewards of this character.
So this is we're changing him onlyas much as we have to,
and we're keeping that backstory, yep, yep, triha, would you like

(01:05:15):
to play some games? Let's playsome game. What was your legendary moment
for the entire season one, meantfor the entire season one, just season
one, season only, only thefirst episodes of season one. It's definitely
the ripping the heart out of thefallen Angel, A bit that was a
really cool and also horrifying moment whereJohn Okay, so so angrid, right

(01:05:39):
is I don't even know? Yes, imagen image something that I imagen has
been like the feather has been returnedto her, Zed gave it back,
and then she her wings turned black, and she is officially like, oh
crap, you're a fallen Angel.We now know like that you're a bad
guy. You're basically like full ofevil. And she's like, yeah,
the you know, I turned becauseI wanted to know what it would be

(01:06:00):
like to, you know, killa human. She was cast out of
heaven and so she fell and nowshe's on Earth and this is terrible and
we can't let her be here becauseshe has all these powers but she can
actually affect things and blah blah blah. And so John is like, right,
exactly, So he's telling Manny thatManny has to do something, and
Manny's like, I can't interfere,and He's like, what the hell are
you talking about? This is aheaven thing something, and then Immagen actually

(01:06:24):
grabs Zed by the throat in orderto keep her as sort of like a
shield situation, like I can't.He's like, never mind, I'm gone,
and John is like freaking out,and then it's over the course of
this episode, Manny had like onceor twice turned into Zed previously, so
like it turns from Zed being likein her vice grip to Manny being in

(01:06:46):
her grip, and when she realizeshe's there, she he shoves his hand
through her chest, rips out herheart. She dies, and then he
turns back into Zen and says,like, what the fuck is this?
Why your heart? What was goingon? It's it's one of those like
cool use of powers things that welove in this type of thing. But
yeah, that's a great little actionmoment and reveal. And I also thought

(01:07:08):
it works character wise because, like, you know, we've established at this
point that Zed is actually quite religious, and so this idea that like all
this angel shit just happened around her, and she's like what is happening and
what am I holding? Yeah,and that's the first episode I think where
she starts to be able to seeManny. Yes, that's the first time
that she, I mean she doesn'tshe I don't think is able to see
Manny and or she does at theend at the end of the episode Manny

(01:07:30):
in the church or something in thechurch. But before that, he had
just sort of become her. Yesall times, Yes, because he can.
He like to appear on earth.He usually has to possess someone essentially
and appear in their form. Uhthere there, Yeah, that is that
moment because like at the end ofthe episode, they're in the church,
just like John Z and Manny,and John sees Manny and has to tell

(01:07:56):
Zed like, oh, Manny's here, and she's already looking at him,
and she's just looking at him withlike this kind of childlike loving wonder as
a religious person would if they sawan angel sit in front of them,
Like it's it's kind of it's cool. It also makes me think, like,
how does that episode fit into whateverthe fuck Manny was gonna do?
Yeah? Yeah, yeah, hisbig bad plan. Anyway, He's very
kind to Zed, honestly, Yeah, it's really cool he starts appearing just

(01:08:20):
to her sometimes. Anyway, goodlegendary moment. Mine is kissing Unon in
church. Yeah, no, Iget that, and she I had an
instant crush on her, and Ihave a crush on him. And I'm
just like every everything about this isperfect. Who's your Hey, just random
question and I I'm sure no onecan guess by the way that this conversation's

(01:08:42):
gone. Who's your MVL for Seasonone of Constantine? Yeah, surprising and
absolutely everyone it's John. Oh.He is the only one that really gets
a lot to do. But Iwould alsa that z is very useful,
even though she is just a tool. She's not really character, really used.
Yeah, plot device y yes,yeah, well in that vein,
I'm gonna choose live from the Panakid. It's just it's John. Yeah,

(01:09:05):
he's He's the only one here thatyou could pick from. Let's play
a little cards to save the timeline. The most powerful item in John Constantine's
collection is definitely blank. Mine isin the Battle of Heaven and Hell,
your best weapon is blank. Excellentsolution slash people, John Constantine's bleeding map,
the Helm of Naboo, Frenching andnun in church. In Constantine's Immortal

(01:09:29):
Cab Driver Friend and I have PapaMidnight and a magical angel feather cool should
we play bingo? Let's does thiscount? Okay, we've already had this
one, but DC deep cuts allover this thing. Also Constantine Firehands and
Let's do Drugs. There's a there'sa couple moments of magic drugs and and

(01:09:50):
people supposedly doing real drugs. Moh and John doing real heroin to like
get a demon out of him.That was fun, not even to get
a demon out of him, justto like subdue the enough. That was
it. Yeah, yeah, thatwas It was like, this is enough
heroin to kill like three rhinos,And he's like, I hope that's enough.
Fully ship anyway, there's Constantine everybody. I had fun. I had

(01:10:13):
too. I don't do a rewatchlike this, but having to like kind
of cram these episodes in a weekand a half them into not not quite
not just two days, it wasit was. It wasn't more, it
was just two days. It wastwo days. I wound up with COVID
this week and I'm like, oh, well, honestly this helps with the
concepts. It gives me time.Yeah, exactly, but we have we

(01:10:34):
have more special episodes coming. Yes, obviously we'll have to defer to our
favorite god among men to save Christmasin December, But what are we going
to do in November? In November, we weren't, so I was doing
a rewatch of one of our favoritemiddle school shows, Charmed, which we
mentioned earlier in this episode came andI was like, oh, hey,

(01:10:56):
there's a lot of time travel inthis show. We should do a Charm
episode about time travel. So we'vedecided that in November, we're gonna do
a side quest. Uh, andwe are going to watch season two,
episode two of Charmed Morality Bites,which is the first so not the first,
it's the second time travel episode,not including the time loop. Wow.
Okay, And and let's be clear, like this is us getting back

(01:11:18):
to to really what sparked our relationshipwith the Yeah, it really would,
like you know, I guess iton your show about Lewis and Clark,
and then we realized that we bothlove Charmed as young'uns, So like,
let's do a random ass Charmed episode. Yes, And we did that for
Lowis and Clark, and that isstill one of the most listened to episodes
of the entire podcast. Oh wow, that's that's surprising to me. I

(01:11:41):
would have thought no one would listento it. No, people loved that
episode. It's so weird. ButI'm like, how many people have watched
list? Okay, so this isus getting back to our fruits really and
meeting up back on on Prescott StreetStreet and uh and we'll go from there.
But yeah, that'll be a funone. It'll be very interesting to
see what travel is like that show. It's very weird and bad and they

(01:12:02):
have terrible productions of what twenty tenlooks like, yes, and terrible wigs.
But we'll get there. So we'llsee in November everybody. Yeah.
Meanwhile, just to plug on Losand Clark to the new podcast of Superman.
I'm getting it back alive a littlebit, just doing a few specials.
I just released an episode with thecostume designer of that show, the
woman that designed my favorite Superman suitof all times. And I didn't realize

(01:12:26):
that she actually was involved with ituntil we were literally recording. So you
can hear me geek out in realtime in that episode. So check that
out, and there'll be more commonthere too, but if you found us
from there, make sure that you'restill subscribed. Yeah, and Matt and
I are both guest staring on seasonnine episodes of Always Hold On To Smallville
at some point in the near future. We don't know air dates for any
those episodes yet. Yes, well, your your episode air dates or an

(01:12:49):
episode one of your episode air datesis out. Mine isn't. But yeah,
we're still haunting the mother ship aswell. That's true. I forgot
that he did post that at thatair date on the yeah recently. Yeah,
but anyway, if you're listening tothis, you should be subscribed to
Always Hold On the Small note anyway, Yes, shout out to you,
Zach Moore. But anyway, thankyou all for listening to this little Constantine

(01:13:10):
deep dive and hope you all haveus booky Halloween very much so, and
until then, don't call us podcasters. We're legends. Always hold On To
DC's Legends of Tomorrow is produced byZach Moore as part of the Always hold
on To podcast family. Listen toZach's other great podcasts wherever you're hearing this,
and check out even more podcast actionon the Always Hold On To Smallville
Patreon page. You can find moreLegends Goodness on social at Legends of Always,

(01:13:35):
and feel free to send us anemail at Legends of Always at gmail
dot com, hashtag save a hotto clot and rate and review us in
app. Please do that, please, please please you beautiful nerd. You
thanks for listening. I wish Icould do a Constantine accent like well,

(01:14:06):
Legends go no, you know