061: The Acolyte, "Teach/Corrupt"

Kevonte, Chris, and Joey discuss the sixth episode of The Acolyte, "Teach/Corrupt." They talk Qimir literally seducing Osha to the dark side, Mae continuing to not make sense, Vernestra finally getting something to do, and speculate why the fandom is so torn about this show.

MASTER OR APPRENTICE?
Kevonte: MASTER
Chris: APPRENTICE
Joey: MASTER

TALLY BOARD
Canon Immigrant: 49
Droid Saves: 9
Execute Order 66: 3
Heart of Gold: 6
"I Have A Bad Feeling About This": 5
Lost Limbs: 5
Mask of the Sith: 8
"May The Force Be With You": 25
Monster Attack: 26
"NOOOOO!": 5
"No One's Ever Really Gone": 12
Pitfall: 15
Superweapon: 2

Artwork by Matt Truex: dailyknockoff.com

PATREON: patreon.com/alwaysmallville
TWITTER: twitter.com/alwaystarwars
FACEBOOK: facebook.com/alwaysmallville
EMAIL: [e-mail]

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
A long time ago in a galaxyfar far away. Welcome to Always Hold

(00:38):
On to Star Wars, because justwhat the Internet needed was yet another podcast
talking about Star Wars. I'm oneof your hosts, Cavante, and I
am joined by my two esteem colleagues. Of course, I have mister Chris
Fuchs, Hello there, and Ihave mister Joseph Deemberg. How's it going
on? Good? How are youguys doing? Man? I'm making it.
We you know you guys are herefor this episode six of the Acolyte.

(01:02):
Uh. We all watched it.The world watched it, but the
world didn't watch it. So Idon't know who's watching it, but I
know people are watching it. Iguess. I guess there's some statistics south
to say that this is the mostlike streamed and watched Disney Plus Star Wars
show since Obi Wan Kenobi, orjust behind Obi Wan kenobi Obi wants the
highest and this is one of them. I mean, if you're a YouTuber

(01:23):
who has to pick everything apart,you know, I mean you got to
watch it a few times. Oneof my favorite, uh, one of
my favorite uh responses. I heardthat on YouTube from a guy who's reviewing
it was yet another week where noone watches Star Wars, but apparently watches
a bunch of YouTube videos by peoplewatching Star Wars. He's like, my
numbers have never been better. Iam not gonna watch the show, but
I will watch somebody else talk aboutit, but I'll watch my else talk

(01:45):
about it. But yeah, butI uh, but much like much like
you last week, Chris, youyou you had some thoughts that you wanted
to get out there before we gotinto discussion. I wanted to do that
as well. I'll try to keepit short because all I mean, we
already have enough of me speak onthis podcast. But I have watched this
show with someone who had never seenit, and I'm also watching the show

(02:06):
with my wife, who knows nothingabout Star Wars, and my teenage son,
who just gott into Star Wars hasbeen watching this and their reactions to
this are so interesting and I thinkI have a slight reason why. And
I'm curious to you guys thoughts onit. But we can get into that
when we do. Yeah, weare here to talk about episode six of
The Acolyte. We're almost done withthe show, guys. Can you believe

(02:28):
it? Oh? It's these showsthat you always feel like you're just just
getting started, and it's like,oh no, we only have two episodes
left to wrap this all up.Oh no, it feels like the show
is just getting started. Then itends, right yea now, but yeah,
uh I, this has been aninteresting watch for me, but I
am really ready to get back toto our Clone wars, you know what

(02:51):
I'm saying. So we got acouple of episodes of the Acolyte. We'll
give it the best fair shot newreviews we can, and then we'll keep
going on. Right, Yeah,well, let's do it. Let's talk
about this one. Episode six,titled Teach Slash Corrupt, was released on

(03:16):
July second, twenty twenty four.It was written by Leslie Hedlund and Joscelyn
Bio and directed by Hannel Culpeper.Kaimer takes Osha to an unknown planet where
he dresses her wounds more like undresses. It claims to be a former Jedi
who was betrayed by his master,drawing parallels to OSHA's past. She's wary

(03:40):
of him, but eventually agrees totry on his helmet, which is made
from the lightsaber blocking metal cortosis onthe Jedi ship at Kofar. Interference disrupts
Soul's attempts to contact the Jedi Council. A partial message about losing his whole
team makes it to Corussant. Soulasks May to help fix the ship's power,
still believing her to be Osha,and she is attacked by Basil.

(04:04):
May overpowers him and resets the power. She tries to get Soul to tell
her the truth about what happened onBrendoc, but her wording reveals to him
that she is not Osha. Whenthe ship's power is restored, Soul stuns
May and leaves her, just asleaves with her. Just as Vernestra and
a small band of Jedi arrived toinvestigate his message. They find the massacre

(04:28):
and suspect that a fallen Jedi isresponsible, with the Jedi padauan mag suggesting
that only Soul would be powerful enoughto kill so many. When May Wake's
Soul says he will tell her thetruth about what happened on Brendoc. I
feel like this description is trying tofill some gaps. Yeah yeah, this

(04:49):
uh, I was gonna say.Reading these episodes out have been more informative
than I think the episodes and thatis a problem. Yeah, anything else
that happened that or nothing. Imean, it really doesn't touch much about

(05:10):
the parts that's breaking the Internet interms of Darth cheeks. Yeah, yep,
yeah, that's bout. Yeah.I mean, Vanessa Rowe, you
know what I mean. I mean, like you know, like we,
I don't know. We'll dive in, We'll dive in. Let's let's get
to our certain points of view.Look, you're going to find that many

(05:30):
of the truths we cling to dependrickly on our own point of view.
Okay, guys, Okay, Sofirst off, I just wanted you guys
know this is me being very vulnerablewith you guys. This is a vulnerable
space I feels the safe space.I did something over the holiday week,
and yeah, I've got to forgiveme if if it gets slightly emotional.
I don't I hope, I'm goingto try not to. I'm in a

(05:53):
very raw place in my life personally, so just forgive me for that.
But over this holiday week I watchedthe entirety of this shar again with my
teenage son and one of my closestfriends who had not yet seen the Acolyte
and the responses from both of them, as well as my wife to people
that I know, like they've beenso hot and cold. I've been trying

(06:15):
to figure out why, right,And instead of going to the internet and
seeing the like I guess you cancall culture war that's kind of making everything
not fun. I needed to figureout why because, and this is honestly
why. For the second time thisyear, I watched Nazis walk through my

(06:36):
name through my downtown. Right,there's actual culture wars that need to be
settled, not this. This isnot worth people's time and energy. Focus
on real stuff like Nazis walking aroundin twenty twenty four. But you know
not to hear this. So this, this is what I want to ask
you guys about, And this iswhat I think that's going to give an

(06:57):
olive branch to whichever side you areon this, to stop thinking that people
who perceive something differently mean they arebad. They are not bad. They
just perceive things differently and that isokay. That has no longer become okay
in our world. But I'm tryingto tell everyone it's okay. So with
all that being said, my son, like me, started watching Star Wars

(07:19):
from episode one through right, Idid not have an experience with original trilogies.
First, Okay, so I thinkthat people that tend to not like
this show typically like the the ojThey've either seen the OG movies or the
OGI movies mean the most to themout of this out of the movies.

(07:42):
And the reason I say that isbecause when I watched episode one, two,
and three, by the time Igot through those movies, my views
of the Jedi is what I thinkthese shows are trying to show us,
right. And then when I gotto four, five, and six,
I was hearing about what old Jediwas talking about, but I already knew

(08:03):
the truth, you know, youknow what I'm saying, So his certain
point of view statement hit me alittle bit differently because y'all had no reason
to think it was anything other thanthe truth. Right. Like, So,
I've always had this weird understanding ofthe Jedi and I and personally in
my personal life, I don't trustorganizations, I trust people. So I've

(08:24):
never been big on like the Jedi. I've been big on the actual Jedi,
you know what I'm saying, notthe idea of what the Jedi are.
So when you have that mindset,these shows don't bother you because it's
making a ton of sense to methat these things happen. Right, So

(08:46):
this is this is this is oneI'm thinking. The prequel showed me a
flawed organization from the get go.Okay, the Clone Wars continues that story.
This is Dave, Felony and GeorgeLucas. I'm gonna keep saying Felony
and George Lucas to make people realizethat Disney, George Lucas, and Feloni
are all the same. Yes,you gotta stop. I mean, I
know we joke about Disney Star Wars, but like it's all Star Wars now.

(09:07):
Okay, So the Jedi, we'renot defeated by the Sith alone.
They sort of did it to themselves. Okay, So stick with me here.
This like lore ruining of the Jedi. It just it doesn't track with
me anymore, right, because ifthis does, then I need to strip

(09:28):
away nearly every Star Wars that I'veever seen or read, apart from the
movies actually just three movies. AndI'm here to say this is gonna this
most constrat thing I might say thewhole time og Star Wars isn't all of
Star Wars. It's just a partof Star Wars, right, And if

(09:50):
we want Star Wars to be thisbig, expansive thing, we have to
allow it to be and we cannotlet it be stuck in some movies from
the seventies and eighties and not letus go beyond that anymore. Okay.
So I say that because it's like, Okay, if I want to be
mad at this particular show because Idon't think they're showing the Jedi fairly,
or I don't like the way theorganization is being treated, I needed to
throw out the Clone Wars as well, because they did that to Ahsoka,

(10:13):
and they did it to Anakin.They did not treat them well. There
are stories in the Clone Wars aboutJedi turning away from the order and going
evil. What pongoo Pongo? What'sthat guy's name, the most famous one.
Yeah, Barriess Opie. When she'sbeing court martialed, she says the
people have lost faith in the Jedi. She'salking about the galaxy. She wasn't

(10:35):
just making that up? Was shewrong? Yes, she was wrong,
but the sentiment was real, right. People have had issues with the Jedi
for a very very long time.So I'm happy to see why they are.
Now you say, well, Idon't like seeing the Jedi always be
portrayed as bad. Unfortunately, that'sthe part of the story we're in.
Don't worry. When we get tothe part where Luke takes over and there's

(10:58):
new Jedi order and all this racestuff that I know you guys are all
gonna love, you'll see the Jedibe portrayed that way and you'll be probably
won't like it because it's a characteryou don't want doing that doing it.
But that's the part of the storywhere you get that. Okay, so
the Jedi have you know, well, I don't like I don't think that
the Jedi should should should withhold thisinformation or have a massive cover up.

(11:18):
I have said this too, right. The Jedi kind of always been secretive
and shady in their dealings. Imean, we can look at Obi Wan
Kenobi. Why didn't he tell Lukethat Darth Vader was just fodder from the
get go? Maybe if he toldhim that, Luke could have went and
appealed to him earlier and we wouldhave skipped two movies. Lots of people
could have lives been saved if Lukehad known, but Obi Wan for some

(11:39):
reason decided not to tell them,right because they withhold information. It's kind
of what they do, right.So I'm just saying that we can't pick
and choose. We can't, Okay. At the end of the day,
I think if he started with theOgs, the Jedi are painted through the
legends in their own story as whatwe all really actually want them to be.

(12:01):
Right. They're protectors of peace andjustice and all those things, and
that's how we want them to be. We want them to be superheroes.
Okay, but they're not. Lucasnot. Some woke person criticized them in
his own writing. He made theprequels, which is showing the flaws of

(12:22):
the Jedi, right, So thisis what I mean. They aren't superheroes
like we wish they would be.Okay, They're not Superman. Superman needs
to be painted this way in noother way. We've seen examples of him
not being painted properly because he's Superman. The Jedi aren't Superman. They're not
even superheroes. What they are isa religious organization. That's it. The

(12:43):
tailing what they are. Even theOG's call it a religion, right.
They are Shalon monks with samurai aspectsand religious people who look at the force
this way, right, So ifyou want to be real, they and
be involved in politics in the firstplace, it's a religious organization in politics,
and we all know that's not thebest way to go about things.

(13:07):
They are ripe for corruption because they'reinvolved in politics. I think that's the
point Lucas is trying to make thatthey aren't allowed, Like, you cannot
be these people and also be political. It just doesn't work that way,
like we've seen it in every example. That's not a good thing. So,
like I want people to like,if you're watching this show, or

(13:30):
if you're not liking the direction ofStar Wars, I'm sorry, man,
I wish I could. I couldget it to y'all. I don't think
that you're some misogynists or biggot,unless, of course you're just being that
which cut it out, grow up. But I think that there's two perspectives
of this, and it's just whatangle you see this story from. And
I've always seen it from beginning towhere it is now, so these things

(13:52):
don't surprise me. And personally inmy own personal life, I'm skeptical of
anybody that tells me they're all goodin the first place. Okay except Superman.
Yeah, except Superman. He shouldbe good all the time, Okay,
uh and so not yeah, yes, yes, yes, clear designation.

(14:13):
So I'm gonna I'm wrapping this upnow, guys, because I have
a couple questions to ask you.Guys. I wrote a lot of things,
and I cut out of behalf ofit because we just I don't need
to keep saying the same thing.Open up, right. But I don't
think this show is ruining Star Wars. I think this show just has incredibly
bad writing and incredibly bad pacing,and that makes for a bad show.

(14:35):
And like you were telling me Chrisbefore this, a lot of people are
watching a bad show and not knowingwhy it's bad and just saying it's the
worst thing ever. They haven't actuallyfigured out what's wrong about it. Because
the things they're pointing out all theStar Wars quote unquote issues of lore and
everything. I don't buy that anymore, because there's examples of everything people are
complaining about, or an explanation foreverything people are complaining about, within the

(14:56):
already established Star Wars, and theydon't have Disney attached to it. So
I don't know what people are complainingabout in that aspect, uh, But
here are my questions, okay aboutand they will get into the characters.
But there's two questions really I kindof want to get on there, okay.
One because this question was asked tome by my son and I didn't
have an answer, So I'm askingmy other two Star Wars buddies, what

(15:20):
is a threshold we think for lightand dark? Do we think it's all
the way one or all the wayother? Do we think you can lean
or tap into either one as ithappens. I always saw it being like
an addiction, so like you candabble and delve into it occasionally, but
the more you get into it,the more hooked you are, and and

(15:43):
the more it feeds on you andyou become you become attached to it,
and you become involved in it.So like you could see you see good
Jedi, you know, rage andtouch the dark side Luke did and Return
of the Jedi. Yeah, yousee that happen. But the ones like
it takes a hold on. Ifeel like it's kind of like an addiction,

(16:06):
Like addiction catches on people like somepeople can. Can you know,
drink and do drugs and stuff andlike touch into it and let it go.
Other people become more invested in itand they're more all to it.
That's how I I agree with that, because like I think that that's one
of the issues with the Jedi asa whole, is that they the Jedi

(16:29):
don't think that you can dabble,when in reality maybe you can. But
you know, with Anakin, Ithink there's a perfect story there because there
are people who will sit there andsay Anakin turn to the dark side the
moment he slaughtered the Duskins, andthere are people who think that way.
I don't think he turned to thedark side until he dropped. Honestly,

(16:52):
I don't even think he was.He turned to the dark side when he
kids, who would know, withMace, with when he killed Mace,
I don't think that was officially turnedto the darks. I think it's I
think it's in the Council Chamber whenhe had to take that the Master Skywalk.
I think that's it, like whenyou finally fully give in and give

(17:15):
yourself to it. And Okay,I I I I agree with you guys
there. So that's kind of whatI told him. Uh. Another question
is are the Jedi fighting to maintainbalance in the force or just the light
side. That makes sense because likethe like like the force. As we're

(17:37):
as we're learning, as as thisstory is expanding, it's more of a
spectrum. There are people that usethe Force that are not Jedi and sip
there one of you just sent whojust set the video talking about balance and
how didn't did something? Yeah,okay, something about George, Yeah,
talking about he talked to George Lucasabout this and balance of force is not

(18:00):
equal side lights and dark. Yes, it's like how you use it.
So the light side of the force, I guess the Jedi and the Force
users they use the force with balance. They you know, it's a give
and take. They trust, whereasthe dark side manipulates the force, and
so they use it out of balanceor something like that. I'm butchering this,
go look it up. I'm notspeak What George Lucas said was the

(18:25):
force, So I never knew thatbefore. It's like to me, I
was always thinking and even when youthink about the prophecy of the Chosen One,
light and dark, and then youthink, oh Anakin really did break
balance because he brought the dark backthat had been missing for so long.
That's how I always looked at it, and I'd be wrong, but I
guess, yeah, that's so nownow it's a different take and everything I

(18:45):
thought before was wrong and as andas I have learned by age thirty six,
I don't like that crap. Idon't like being like, this is
what I've always thought and then happenedto be told No, it was actually
this way, And that's what's happeninga lot in Storng. I mean that
goes into exactly your Your whole argumentright there is these people have thought for
so long with the original trilogy,and and I would I would think out

(19:07):
of the group here, I thinkJoey would be more like you said,
starting with the prequels and being moresympathetic to these other points of view.
And me, I'm I grew upwith legends and there and and for me
it's harder to take. But justjust to kind of like give my take
on this. I'm a huge continuityperson. Like continuity, I look for

(19:27):
these things. I love it,and so me that kind of ties into
the lower stuff. But I'm thebiggest perpetrator of this whole thing with I
love the Obi Wan Kenobe show,and that breaks what was affected to be
based on the original ones. SoI think for me it's it's if they

(19:48):
were doing a good job of tellingthe story and like it was being done
very well, I'd very easily beable to forgive those things. I know
some people can't, and to them, that's fine if you don't like it
and don't watch it. Yeah,I just I just I just think this
this idea of the way the Jedipresented, like I because I was I
was, you know, I wastalking to my buddy, my buddy who
saw the the the the original trilogyfirst, and I'll wrap this up being

(20:10):
into the character debates after this oldcharacter conversations after this, but he brought
up an interesting point to me.He's like, Yeah, I watched the
older ones as a kid, andyou know, spent all that time playing
my action figures, making up theseideas, and you know, got a
couple of legends books and everything,and then the Phantom Menace comes out,
and I'm excited to go see theJedi because this is supposed to be the
Jedi at the height of their strength. There's going to be more than just

(20:32):
two or three the whole you know, I'm saying, and you get there,
and he was like, I'm notgonna lie. They were nothing like
I thought they were. They werejust all kind of sitting around in ropes
and I thought, this isn't whatI am at. And he was bummed
out by that, and that's oneof the reasons he did not enjoy the
prequel, because he's like, that'snot the Jedi that I thought they were
going to be. And it's like, yeah, I think that was intentional.
And also it's about the creator,so like it's it's the guy who

(20:53):
has the idea in his head.He's not doing it to necessarily stoke agendas
or piss people. That's just hisstory. But I just found an interest
like I'd never you know, becausemy son has no issue with anything he's
seen because he's just like, thisis the story I'm being told. If
he's like, oh, I didn'tknow it before, he doesn't think but
what about the case, He's like, Oh, that must've just that's a

(21:15):
part of the story. And Ithink we all have that feeling. Was
like, what do you mean Anakinhad a paddle one that whole time Yep,
no he didn't. But if wedid not allow that to happen,
like just accept it, we wouldn'thave some of our favorite stories, you
know. Yea, So it's justan interesting thing. Like like my my
son was saying, Yeah, hewas basically saying like that, this is
my expanded universe now, like thisis my expanded universe. Like and I'm

(21:38):
having to, you know, growmy mind off what I've seen all these
movies because he's just taking it allin as it comes. You know.
What I think is really hard aboutthis too, is I think people are
so attached to their side of itthat they're defending it to extremes that they
don't necessarily agree with. Oh likeguilty. Yeah, I think you and

(22:00):
I are both guilty on the oppositeends. Like you, like you want
to be okay with this and youwant the story, so you tend to
lean more towards defending it and bolsteringit when in reality that you know you
may not necessarily feel as strongly aboutthis. And I also the same way,
like, am I not enjoying itas much because I'm inclined to not
like those other things? And triggerme there? And then you get to

(22:22):
this whole big thing is why can'twe just take it as it is?
Yeah, it's hard, but youcan't with the internet few days because everyone
you have all these people blasting youwith these YouTube video saying this is bad,
this is bad, but many ofthe other people saying, this is
the most greatest thing we've ever seen. This is the best Star Wars Lightsaber
action since here and both of themright, no, neither of them are.
It's somewhere middle. It's super funnybecause like my kids, man,

(22:45):
like, like my kids, mykids are growing up in a different world
that we never experienced guys, right, like they have Like I'm having to
teach my son media literacy, notso he can have be a smart gown
a podcast, but because like there'sai videos that are showing up showing people
do things, like he has tobe aware of these things. He's going
to grow up in a different worldthan I did, right, And so
I was I was talking about likethe differences of people's abuse of this,

(23:08):
and he was like he was listeningand he was seeming like get stressed out
by it, and he was like, Dad, like, why are you
getting upset? And I was like, he's like I don't know why people
have made a different, like differentopinions bad, Like there are things like,
hey, are Nazis good or bad? Yeah, that's we should fight

(23:30):
about that, you know what I'msaying, But like not every difference of
opinion requires any kind of emotion attachedto it, Like so, I mean,
I don't know, it's just it'sjust I'm I'm I'm trying. I'm
trying to be and I'm trying toset an ali branch for these two warring
factions of Star Wars fans because atthe end of the day, it's supposed
to be for entertainment. Like noteverybody doesn't like this? Is a is

(23:53):
a misogist and a racist or sexist? Are there people like that that don't
like it? Sure? But aseverybody, no, and everyone who loves
it aren't just dumb shills who justtake everything and consume and like, well
no, no, we just don'tlet the like they just don't bother as
much. We have different experiences withyour story, and that's the beautiful thing.

(24:14):
That's why we started the podcast storiesfor everybody, not just the people
who like this or like that.And I'm excited that like this particular story
and like you know, it's notlost upon me. The story is created
by by by a gay woman.Uh, and so the story is going
to be from the like Kimer's storylinecompletely tracks with probably her actual experiences on
things. And that's the perspective thatI don't normally get and I'm not mad

(24:37):
about it. I don't understand it, but then again I do because I
think we all can understand people's youknow, stories, but I don't know,
man. I just we can nowget into the characters and we can
talk about why the show actually isnot doing great, but we can talk
about things you like. But youwanted to do a character by character breakdown,
right, Chris, I thought thatan idea. Yeah. I think

(24:59):
that's the easiest way to hit iteverything. Yeah, well, well I
will. I will pass it offto you and just chime in when I
got some mistake. Because I havespoken for a good portion of this podcast.
Thank you guys for giving us anythingI have spoken. I have spoken.
I appreciate it, but you listen. Thank you guys for giving me
some grace there, and yeah,appreciate you. Go ahead, man,
take it away. Also to Joey, you and I differ completely. We

(25:22):
both watched this episode and you say, so much progressed, and then I
say, like, I think nothingprogressed here, So that that is the
best part though that the group chatis the reactions. Immediately Joey's like that
was amazing, and everyone's like,what are you talking? And then it's
such a spectrum of things because likeYou'll be on one end, Zach will

(25:42):
be on the complete other end,and then you two are like in the
two middle areas. Yeah, yeah, I don't think the world really doesn't
know, is ex opinion on theshow. We got to hold off on
that one. Uh I did noticesomething I did something made me look this

(26:02):
up this week, and in particularwas the run time. So this feels
we're in our sixth episode so farout of eight and we have just gotten
like consistently short episodes in my opinion. So I went back and looked.
I took out the intro, andI took out the credits, and just
like runtime on the episode, andon average, the Accolyte is finishing it

(26:27):
around thirty one point seven minutes.Ahsoka finished on average at thirty nine.
So those another eight episode show there, Like I really feel like this show
could benefit from more time. Likethe pacing just seems off, and I
think it's it's it's creating, youknow, lack of understanding on some things

(26:49):
that's creating more questions. This isa mystery show too, And so my
biggest grape here, I guess isI wish that they put more into these
episodes or like maybe space them outdifferently or did But because this episode in
particular, how much time transpired,and the same amount of time transpire between

(27:11):
all three of the stories that wesaw, I'm guessing so that's the very
last Jedi feeling, isn't It's likehow long is things happening? Different characterstives,
Yeah, and I feel especially yeah, it does, especially when they
don't like they date themselves to alittle bit, like Kimier specifically says it's
been a few hours. And thenyou have like the message going out from

(27:33):
soul Ship to people on Chorus Oontsthat aren't ready to come at all,
preparing to travel coming there. Andthen also we had a whole episode of
the first initial group walking through theforest to find kal Naka, and then
now Vernesta comes and does the samething and like snap them a finger.
Yeah, So whether it actually tookher that long, that's another question.

(27:56):
But the fact that we actually sawthe other group the whole episode doing it
and now it's just so those area couple of things off, but we
wanted to let's talk about character.So let's know, we could take split
into the three groups. So wehave the Kimier Osha, we have May
Soul, and then we have Bernestraand her group. Yep. Uh.

(28:18):
Do we want to get the bestout of the way first, yeah,
yeah, save for the end.Okay, We'll save Kimier and Osha for
the end. We'll start with becausethat is the best stuff. Yeah,
that is the best. We'll startwith Soul and May. Okay, what
do you what do you guys?Tell me your thought? Because again,
so go ahead, go ahead,Joey, I spent this whole time like,
okay, it's it's unfortunate too thatyou know, you're almost like watching

(28:44):
the show from a defensive point ofview on some of it, where it's
like, okay, yeah, Iknow the whole thing is going to be
how does he not sense that thisisn't Osha. I'm watching it thinking about
that the entire time. It seemedlike he was very much overwhelmed in his
own his own stuff, and Iwent to do the same thing that Kevi
did and start from the beginning.They drop a lot more hints looking back

(29:07):
to at souls just emotions and howhe It's funny the narrative around everything.
Everybody was saying he looks like anotherqua gon a qui quintessential Jedi, and
now it's seeming more and more Soulis actually not. We'll get into it
later where people are jumping right tomaybe he turned. So that was interesting

(29:33):
to watch. But I don't getMay. I don't understand anything. That's
one area I won't to fen.I don't understand where she's going all the
time and the bouncing around with everything. But one thing we haven't talked about
yet is how Osha is always wakingup. I feel like there's just something

(29:59):
symbolic there, like I feel likethere's a storytelling thing they're trying to do.
And when they switched over, itwas May waking up when May was
an ocean's shoes, but Osha alsowoke up to start with the episode,
so now everybody's just waking up.Oh sold visceral reaction in this episode here,
like he looks completely torn and hewants to go to the High Council

(30:23):
and say everything, and he's justlike pulls Mayosha into a hug and like
unloads and stuff like that. Hehas such a visceral reaction to what happened,
and like the badness of it,the fact that Kimer got in his
head and he almost did something bad. It's if they're setting up that this

(30:44):
is how strongly he reacts to somethinglike this. How did it go sixteen
plus years depending how bad this thingthat came out? Is like you think
that if this is his visceral reaction, and maybe guilt has weight on him
all these years and it's like pushedhim into this. But I guess it's
just like how how bad is itgoing to be what happened on brun Dock.

(31:06):
He's lived with it, he's beena Jedi. He hasn't shared with
anybody, He's kept it a secretfor all this long whenever whatever it is,
because we know he's now going toshare it soon maybe yeah, maybe?
Well, uh, Joe, toyour point about Saul, Yeah,
I pretty much banked on like thefact that he couldn't tell that that was
may that he and I was gonnatalk about this later when we talked to

(31:30):
the Jedi, so I don't wantto get too much on him. He
unlike the action the other Jedi hada reaction to the fact that all of
his team just died. Yeah,it was really weird to watch and just
walk through. And they gave youlike I think they purposely gave glaring shots
of our dead characters, just likesomething we don't see in Star Wars,
just to show them not react inany kind of way a normal person would.
They just were right to business.So Soul reacting like that, I

(31:53):
figured he was just overcome with emotionand he's probably as a Jedi, trying
to get a handle on that.He's not thinking about it's this was why
would he assume, Yeah, he'ssitting there, He's sitting there with the
anxiety of oh god, I'm alsofeeling emotion. I can't feel this emotion.
But also my friends are out there, you know, he's he's swirling
all feels. He doesn't have areason to suspect that being a switch because

(32:15):
he should know a script. Buthe does know the script, and that's
my issue with the show and youknow, Saul's issue with him knowing the
script or bothered me. But sowe're talking about Saul and we're talking about
May, who was replacing Osha.Real quick, we now see that May

(32:36):
switching to Osha meant nothing. Shehad this moment in the previous episode she
cuts her dreads and they literally makea big deal about it, like this
is going to be something that'sgnificant.And then she gets on the ship and
immediately wants to kill Saul, whichdoesn't make sense because she was supposed to
turn herself into the Jedi and shewas trying to escape the Sith, which

(32:57):
also doesn't make sense because when theJedi I found her, she didn't say
that she tried to fight them.So this is this is the bad writing
part. Characters aren't saying things theyshould say because the story would not meet
the eight episode mandate if they did. This is purely to stretch out to
eight episodes, so characters are leftlooking like idiots and it's so frustrating.

(33:19):
She she went also too like shewants Osha to run away with her.
Then she wants to be Osha togo finish her mission to kill Soul,
but she didn't want to do themission anymore because she thought it was impossible.
She's gonna turn herself in. Yeah, she has opposit, but she's
like, tell me about Brindock.Well, Kimer says too. Kimer says
to Osha, I messed up withMay because I thought she wanted more than

(33:43):
just revenge. So that would implythat she just wants revenge. This is
all revenge. Yeah, So thenif it's all revenge, what is she
doing? What's she doing? Yeah, it's like all of these these episodes
like this one. For sure,this could have been a great and or
style three episode arc of May posingas Osha learning more about soul and getting,

(34:08):
you know, and getting information aboutit by being in this place,
because I honestly thought this parent trapthing was actually going to be attempted for
a half a secondly like four minutes. To be fair, though, it
always should have failed because May hasno idea what OSHA's like. She hasn't
known her for six years. Sheshouldn't be able to be May at all.
It'd be like if I went toyour house, Joey and try to

(34:29):
talk to your wife about like aswhatever you guys his family are doing.
Yeah, but also I mean,but also to some degree, this whole
show has felt like it's been fiveminutes and Osha has been gone for years,
so there is a little bit ofsomething where nobody really knows her.
But regardless, I just I thoughtthey were going to attempt it to some
degree. And so while we're talkingabout this with Soul too, like what

(34:52):
he had to get the message outthat something happened, then you want to
talk to the High Council. Allthat was about there, and then he
finds out that a Jedi rescue teamis on its way and he immediately flips
the switch off and jumps into hyperspace. I'll tell exactly why. And also

(35:13):
like he didn't put any coordinates in, He just jump jumps, And you
got to assume they were going togo back to chorusant this whole time.
So where is he going to hisand why did he need to get away
so quick and waste the time?Now this whole rescue team is going and
looking for him and trying to findhim. Is it so that they can
just pin it on him that hewas the one that killed all the other
Jedi It's it's it's it's because heknows the script. Okay. So even

(35:36):
before that, May has decided secretly, because she sees her sister alive,
she no long wants to do this. However, she still travels to Kofar
and then waits until they're halfway throughthere to be like, I don't want
to do this anymore. It's like, okay, then why even go?
But they're there, soul Seul triesto tell the Jedi. He says,

(35:58):
you know, my team has beenkilled. He does not say, oh
my god, it's a freaking Sithhere. He says, my team's been
killed. And then the then youknow, communication errors happened because the script
needs them to happen, right,So then they're like, okay, uh,
he looks at he looks at Osha. No, it looks at May.
Once he find out that, youknow, oh May, and he's
like, we have to go findyour sister and your master, which I

(36:22):
don't know how he knows these thingsbecause last time he saw the stranger he
was being carried all the way byumber Moss and he has no idea he
has for all he knows Osha isstill there, and so is and the
Sith guy is dead. But whydoes he leave Why does he know because
the script, Well that's a goodpoint. How does he know that Osha
is somewhere else? He does it? The script does, and he knows
the script. That's why I'm tellingyou this is bad, right, Okay,

(36:45):
So not only that, Not onlythat, Then they come back and
instead of you know, uh,the story's like, okay, well the
backup is coming, he leaves.I'm assuming he's going to Brendac to show
to just I don't know, Reminisceand be like, this is what happened.
But that has to happen because ifthe ground team shows up and talks

(37:06):
to him, they will then't learnthat there is a Sith. But they
can't yet because the script can't letthem do that yet because that means the
show is over. So instead theyshow up there and then Venestra Row and
the team, which I don't knowif you guys want to bleed into this.
After I say this, we cankeep talking about Saul and no should
be like, but they get there, examine the scene. Vnestra Row is

(37:27):
aware that May is out there killingJedi. This is not a question,
that's not a mystery. They knowthat she also knows which she's a little
shady too, we can talk abouther. She also knows that May was
more than likely taught by a whatshe thinks a fall in Jedi from a
splinter order, that is who youwould assume did that. But instead she

(37:49):
lets that padawan and I say shelets because I think she's being shady intentionally.
She lets that padawan say Saul didit. She doesn't refute it.
She justation, she says to herself, not to the pot of one or
something to tip the scales, likeshe knows something. Well. So another

(38:10):
thing that it felt like it wasjust kind of background noise at the very
beginning of the Vernestra's part of this, this senator where they're talking about the
Jedi being exposed. There's something goingon with that senator too, Yeah,
being audited. Yeah, And theysaid he's just a zealous he's he's like,

(38:31):
what trying to get bothes a dealsJedi. Jedi is always he has
never been a friend of the Jedi, by his fear has convinced so many.
But she said, like the Jedihave always been transparent with the Senate.
Was a lion that they said,yeah, so there's and we only
have two episodes left, and oneof them is going to be all flashbacks.

(38:51):
So the thing, the thing,and and and and I like,
I don't know. I don't knowif you guys are interested in going to
Row in her side story now,yeah, yeah, go. But Vanessa
Row, I had to look herup because I told you guys, I
ended up realizing I'd read her ina story and didn't even realize it was
her because when I read her,she was like a teenager. But Vanessa
Row has a whole backstory that theshow is not telling us. She's very

(39:12):
old. I don't know if youguys know that she's o one hundred years
old. She has She was aJedi. She was a very very gifted
Jedi. Her master died, shetook on a padawan. She believes a
padawan died. She left the JediOrder to become a way Seeker, which
I don't know if everybody knows thatthe way seeker is. But in the
High Republic there were Jedi who wereallowed to leave the Order because they did
not want to listen to the HighCouncil. They just wanted to follow the

(39:34):
force and they would go off andthey were called way seekers. So she
lost faith in the Jedi Order andbecame a way seeker and left. She
I'm guessing she comes back to theOrder and gets a place as disposition she's
in now, but we have noidea what she did between her becoming a
way seeker and her returning to theJedi Order, right. I think that's
doing this service to the show entera character, because she has so much
more nuance to her performances, likewhen she's like when they made a big

(39:58):
deal about her not wanting to gothrough hype speed, it's because Joey,
I think you read the first book. She was she witnessed the disaster in
the first book, which would giveher a good reason not to want a
hyperspace trap. So like, butif you don't know that, you're just
like, Okay, who cares?But I am starting. I mean,

(40:19):
the show has not been very goodat keeping mystery. Uh, you know,
we figured out Kimer was a stranger. I think everyone right now feels
like Venestro Rowe is the person whoput that scar on Chimer's back with her
lightsaber whip, which, by theway, let me talk about the lightsaverer
whip for a second real quick,because it's because it's it's introduced in the
Higher Republic books. Her character sheuses the lightsaber whip because she had a

(40:43):
dream where the Force showed her howto make that happen. Venestra was a
very u She was like a prodigyJedi for the High Republic, and she
was able to She said she sawa vision from the Force of how to
make her lightsaber do that. Andyou know, I would think that was
weird until I watched Canaan explain toSabine when she was using the dark Saber

(41:06):
that you're just controlling a flow ofenergy and it's not necessarily a blade.
It's just you're controlling that energy inthat way with the lightsaber. So apparently
she knows a way to extend itand make it floppy so on that.
But you know, so it's itlooks weird, yeah, but there's president
for it. She's not just doingit to be different. You know,
she had a vision in the Forceplaying the Force, not her but but

(41:30):
uh, I think people are startingto feel that she may be the person
that put that put that lightsaber tothe back of our uh our camere here.
But if that's the case, great, I guess that makes sense,
But I'm maybe that's the mystery.I don't know, but she has not
been in this show enough to beas important as I think she's about to

(41:53):
be. Oh yeah, and it'sbeen a disservice to the writing of the
show. No one knows anything aboutthis woman, but I think she's going
to be the probably the antagonist andthe reason for the cover up. It's
it's the same with all the characters, like, yeah, why do we
care that Torbin and Andara died?Like why do we care that kal Knaka
died without a fight? I knowwe're gonna we'll probably see more of them

(42:14):
later in the splashback episode, butwe have not spent enough time with any
of these characters, especially your maincharacters May and Osha, to even care
or know what they may or maynot do. It just shows that it
has almost been an old school twentytwo episode thing where we can just hang
out in this era with random Jediand have a lot of and and you

(42:38):
could have led the mystery and throughall of that. Yeah, this show
just we're not spending enough time withanybody, especially time here. This episode.
There were a lot of a lotof scenes that lingered so held on
to like soul thinking or being said, or held on to Osha just you
know, looking around and discovering.And there were a lot of scenes that

(43:00):
lingered on and it's like for ashort episode to have that, it stands
out more because you want more tohappen, You want to get to some
different parts of the story. LikeI really feel like this episode should have
given us more meat for the storyitself, knowing there's only two episodes left
and you've also not given us anythingfor the first five. Yeah. Also,

(43:23):
do you guys think when Vannessa wasasking that padawan what he thought happened
and the padawan was describing it,do you think he was using the force
echo Chris, Yes, like likeCalcastas and Quinland Vass. I was thinking
that because he's like he's like therewas a battle and he was able to
tell there was one guy versus many, and he was like kind of going

(43:45):
there the question back, just likethey would in the game. Yeah,
So I figured he had that ability, or maybe she does too, that
they were filling echoes in the forcelike Quinlan Voss or Calcastus something that's pretty
cool. I didn't know that.Yeah, I mean that I don't.
I don't think has to be confirmed, but that that's like whenever going through
because I was like, they're juststraight up detecting, like you know,
they're like Sherlock Holmes in this thing. Oh maybe they're using the force,

(44:07):
you know, uh, because that'show the guy was like, someone was
really powerful to did this. Maybeit was Master Saul, and it's like,
yeah, maybe you know the JediMaster you guys know and has been
there around you guys all day justrandomly snapped and killed everyone. Or it's
the suspects that you guys were hereon that's what the first place for you

(44:28):
know it is. But yeah,all right, so let's let's get over
to Ocean Kimer. Yeah, guys, let me ask a question. But
starting out from the beginning, shewakes up and she checks this wound down
her side. That's healed. You'regone. I guess. Are we supposed
to know what that is because theyshowed it at the end of the last
episode. I don't remember ever gettinga wound on her side there that would
be this much of a focal point. I don't either. She just got

(44:52):
pushed by. There's gonna be somethingin one of the episodes where they can't
tell which one is which, andthat'll be the determining factor that has to
be it. Maybe I don't know. Yeah, I just don't understand what
they spend Like it's been a focalpoint both in the last episode and this
one. I guess maybe to showthat Kim here took care of her,

(45:13):
like helped her. Yeah, maybe, but it's like, shouldn't we have
seen her like get that one then? Not just kidding like I think it's
more of like, yeah, partof the seduction piece of the whole thing
of what was that? I thisis my favorite Like this, this was
my favorite part of the show.This is what I wanted the show to
be, us learning about why aperson like getting some more dark side you

(45:37):
know content, guys like like letus know what's going on. And yeah,
I just these few scenes carried thewhole episode for me. I was
just sitting there kind of waiting togo back here. And I love looking
at the seduction of somebody to thedark side in terms of hm, you

(45:59):
know, and it's not even kindof like what Palpatine did of you know,
Oh, here's one thing you wantto hear. I mean, it's
similar, but this is more of, Hey, you're not as bad as
the Jedi make you feel you are. Yeah, I agree with you.
I think this. I think thatthe the chemistry between the two of them
was actually good in this episode,a lot better than Yeah I thought things.

(46:23):
I thought things transparent. I Iwas definitely into it to see what
was going to transpire in here,but I just none of it tracked for
me. Okay, So, soOsha this entire time, What's what's Osha
has been? What? What havewe been given to know about Osha?
So she had tried to be aJedi when she was little, she really
wanted to, and then she tried, and I guess she failed, like

(46:45):
she said she felt, so shewalked away from the order. She was
living her life, doing her ownthing, not using the force. Right.
I think we kind of transporred thatshe's barely was could not she hadn't
practiced it, so she wasn't ableto touch upon it. Yeah, she
left of her own volition, right, Yeah? Yeah, So what does

(47:06):
Kimir know that we don't where he'stalking about? Like the Jedi didn't want
you, He like apparently knows howthat she was interested in Jeckie and what
she thinks about soul and all thesethings that he's saying to her. It's
like he said, he can't read. He like, obviously he's seducing her
and probably manipulating things annoying. Ijust don't It doesn't track for me what

(47:27):
her motivation would be. For one, staying on the island. He gave
her, He gave her a chanceto leave, He told her where the
ship was, and at that point, yet all he'd said to her is
that she has a strengthen the force. He hasn't said any yet that has
been interesting to her something. Sowhat I think too is she was in
terms of her timeline on where she'sat right now. She's been away from

(47:50):
the Jedi for years. The Jedishow up and say, hey, you
you're many of these crimes, youdid all of the things, and are
dragging her along through all these missions, still not trusting her. You know.
In the flashback of the episodes,is them yelling at her giving her

(48:12):
orders in the in the battle,goes through a very traumatic experience and then
sits there and then finally, forthe first time in this show and in
this time of her life, somebodyshows her kindness because because he's manipulating,
he is manipulating her, he's nottruly being kind. But you know,

(48:34):
you're not going to run away fromsomebody who's somebody, you know. Yeah,
I mean, but in that moment, I mean, that's a traumatic
experience. And in that moment whenshe woke up, he cared for her
by dressing her wound, you know, and and and again he's being manipulative.

(48:55):
Well let me let me, letme pose it that, let me
pose it this way for you.We're talking about Nazis. It's like we
all we all see ourselves as goodindividuals, community people. Uh. You
know, Let's say you have someonethat is a known Jedi or a no
Nazi, A no Nazi not thesame. You're a no Nazi who has
you in They're like after you've justseen them murder people and they're starting there.

(49:20):
You know you have some level fredom. They're not keeping you prisoner.
You have You're able to do things. Are you going to stay and hear
anything that they have to say toyou? You guys, personally, what
would you do? Like, Oh, I think no, I'm saying I'm
not I'm not in a identity crisislevel of my Yeah, I was,
I was, I was. WhatI was going to add to that was

(49:42):
that I don't think oh is eitherShe's known since she was like she's always
thought good not identifying with the Jedi. He is playing on her emotion.
Edi. I just said like twoepisodes that she was like super excited at
the maybe she could be a Jediagain. Yeah. So so I'm thinking

(50:02):
that the thought of being a Jedifor her is the same as her having
a place, Like I feel likeshe just wants to be somebody's something or
something like, she just wants tobe a part of something, right.
She didn't want to be part ofthe witches coven. She don't want to
be a witch. She want tobe her own person. She wanted to
go do things. I think herexcitement of trying to go back to the

(50:23):
Jedi Order, if asked, wasbecause she just wanted to be back with
Soul. I'm not I'm not buyingthat she is immediately like convinced by Darth
Cheeks that I'm going to become aSith suddenly. What I do think he
is doing is that he is plaguing. He is like touching on her insecurities
with what she's going through right now. I think he's just like, why

(50:45):
is he able to do that withno connection to her whatsoever? When just
last episode, May, her sister, her blood, who she thought had
been dead for all that she would, was able to give her the time
of day because she was a criminal. I think I think that. So.
I don't remember the order of theepisode, but I so I could
be wrong. Here, catch meif I am here. But I think

(51:07):
that she at first was very resistantto what he was saying. And I
think she even makes a point tosay, I'm not my sister, I'm
not gonna fall for this, untilshe learned that he was also a Jedi
at one point who failed. Howdoes she get to that point though?
Why does she even stay and givehim the time of day when she wouldn't
give because the script needs meet theship's right there. He hadn't said anything

(51:28):
about his former Jedi part. Yeah, all he had said is that,
you know, he thought it wasinteresting that she asked about Soul before she
asked about May and said, andshe said, Soul's really strong in the
force. He would say, Iwould say that's your strength like that.
That was just trigger, because whatdo you mean, I have strength?
Like that's he has what the youngcalled riz okay, and he has game

(51:52):
as we called it growing up.No, I mean, like, I
see your point, Chris. Honestly, I think it's just because the story
needs her to either to have theseinteresting conversations, because yeah, it doesn't
make sense for her to stay there. I'm I guess, to the show's
credit, at least she says thingslike, hey, man, you killed
these people and why should I trustand he answers them very not what she

(52:13):
expects, and I think that's probablywhy she's not like, yeah, he's
not being what she expects. I'mnot. I'm not at that point.
I'm in why she's asking those questionsagain, the answers, I mean to
get to the point where she's hey, then she's in there having dinner with
him at that point inside his layerenough to like and then go, look,
that part was all interesting, andI buy all that, and I

(52:34):
get why she might be curious andlook into it. I meant to get
to that point. She woke up, she had a lightsaber, she hesitated
to kill him, but then hesaid, here's a ship you can go
that that's when I think she wouldhave she should have or should have gone.
And that's why I'm question, likewhy you say there after that point,
all this stuff be saying. Iget it, he's playing her,
She's fallen for it. He angersher to the point of igniting the lightsaber

(52:54):
and pushing it off against the wall. I get all that. I meant
like early, but like you said, I mean I I also also I
think I think the show is what'svery intentional in you know, our two
characters here being you know, Souland Kymer watching how they dealt with May

(53:14):
and Osha uh differently, and youknow, it does kind of suck.
By the end of the episode,Saul has her strap to a chair and
he's like, we're going to talk. You know what I mean. You
know it's one of the you knowwhat I'm saying, And then like to
get the juxtaposition of like the badguy being like, you can leave if
you want, man, but Ican also tell you about like you know
who you really are, and youknow how strong you are in the forest,

(53:35):
and you know, I'm going totell you all the things that Jedi
I wouldn't tell you, like likereal talk. The thing when he's when
she's like, oh, you know, I can't do these things. There's
you know, you know, that'sthe path of the dark side. He's
just like, that's semantics. AndI'm so happy he said that because he's
actually correct and I know that's notlike the Jedi way, but he's not
a Jedi, so he doesn't saythat, but like it is, it
is semantics. But it also goesto that talk about what George Lucas was

(54:00):
saying about the force, like touse it in balance and to train and
like a muscle, and learn moreabout it and become more in tune with
it to use it versus uh,you know, manipulating it and taking the
easy route. That that was somethingthat was big about what my best had
said from yes, like it's it'seasy. Yeah, it's the easy way
to take the dark side. Yeah, that's that's so. Yeah. Maybe

(54:22):
don't like all the Jedi tenets ofreligion, but the actual using of the
light light side versus dark side isa very real thing. I just I
just often think like, uh,like, I I love these conversations between
you know, a person who's tryingto stay on the light side and a
dark side user. Explaining why theydo the Dark Side. And I've always

(54:42):
wanted because we've seen characters, youknow, you know, dooku like like
what we've seen characters use the darkSide, right, you want to know
why your bad guys are being badand you want it to make sense.
You don't want to just be allof a sudden, this little kid Anakin
that you love is a dark vaderkilling. There has to be a reason.
There has to be something that thatmakes gets to that point the dark
side, I think because it's theeasier path. It feels like somebody shady,

(55:05):
like you know, like like someone'sshady trying to sell you something,
you know. I mean, Palpatineliterally pretended to be Anagin's like happy uncle
and like like a sid Like heliterally was like a senator, like going
to meetings and like helping plan awar that he was on both sides of
and like sitting there watching a play. Like hey man, everything about this
story about how a guy kept broughta person to life. Wouldn't it be

(55:29):
helpful if there's somebody you think mightbe dying soon, you know, like
like it that's what the dark Sidedoes. It. It's just like I
always took that as I know thatDarth Plagas was a legend's character, and
that's where it actually was true orever like that I always said that to
be. He's just he knows that'swhat Anakin wants, so he's giving him
the idea that, hey, Ihave what you want, even though we

(55:50):
know he didn't really have a wayto keep Padme alive. No, no,
and and like and that's that leadsme to a question I have about
Kymer, Like, how much ofwhat Kaymer is saying do you think it's
true? Do you think he reallywas a Jedi or is he just spinning
this story because that would apply thatI think he was, but I don't.
But I don't think that a Jedidid that to his back, He

(56:13):
says, my master did. Okay, well, well, before we get
to the what happened to his back, he said he was a Jedi a
long time. How old is he? I think he may be older.
I think he may be older thanhe looks. And do you think he's
older than Soul? Yeah? Ido. I think he was Venestra's padawan.
That I mean, that's entirely possible. But if if he is,

(56:35):
then I guess just like Soul hasbeen a Jedi for like years. Yeah,
I mean we're talking about like likeand and here this is the fun
question. It's the fun question aboutlike the Force or the dark side,
like you know, we know thereare thoughts or at least you know,
tales of the dark side, likeyou know, preserving long life, like
you know, and and and evenyou know, like is that something that

(56:57):
he's doing. I don't know ifthey want to go in depth with that
because they haven't shown anything to showthat yet. But like, uh,
yeah, he's like you know along time that. She's like, I
never heard of you? Which whohave you heard of Osha? You have
been an order in how long?Like I don't think the Jed everybody while
so she's talking about he said hewas a Jedi a long time ago.
She's thinking back to like when shewas a Jedi. Yeah, and I

(57:20):
don't think more like okay, sheshe was a padawan and then love maybe
she wouldn't have had experience too.For me, I'm thinking Soul because Soul
has been around as a Jedi forat least sixteen years, because he was
a Jedi when they went to Brendockand so even longer than that he was
and then he didn't recognize Kimeer eitheron a lega or even on col far.

(57:43):
So that that that that's where I'mthinking, like, I don't know,
was he actually a Jedi or ishe spending this story because that's what
would apply to Osha, That's whatwould feed to her. Hey, I
used to be a Jedi and nowI'm not. Look what I'm doing,
and it's kind of like for her, I think, And maybe not even
a Jedi, but maybe a partof the order, or you know,
maybe he was cast off as apaddawan, you know, isn't wasn't there

(58:06):
some old I don't know if itwas quite legends, but it was like
a young adult book where obi Wandid not get picked by any master,
so he was getting sent off tosome farm or something to maybe maybe he's
that's his story or something like that. Maybe no, I think that,
I think. I think that's againI'm just posing that as maybe that's a

(58:27):
no. I mean talking about it. What he tells her is that I
was a Jedi very very long timeago, and I was cast aside or
thrown away by my Jedi master.And he also lost everything. So I
think that those particular phrases apply toher. They could be his story.
Yeah, maybe he well maybe hehas a similar background where his family was
lost and the Jedi took him inand he could not get over that,

(58:51):
and his attachment to his memory ofhis families made him be cast off from
the Jedi because that's not the Jediway, and because I think because I
think that that's what happened to Osha. I think Osha could not get over
what happened that night, and that'swhy she could not be a Jedi.
She could not let go of theattachment because that was going to lead her
to the dark side. They establishedthat early on her. If you can't
let that go. So I'm assumingthat if he has a similar story,

(59:15):
he shared that with her and that'swhat connects her to him, like,
oh, you you know what I'mfeeling, you know, And I think
once you have that connection and helooks like that, you'll listen. Just
I mean, that's just kind ofthe way it is, and the way
the way that this this show hasbeen telegraphing their their mysteries. The fact
that you see that scar on hisback the same episode that the light Whip

(59:39):
is introduced. I don't think that'sa coincidence. I think it's one of
those It's like it it's so obvious, it can't be right, but I
think I like, no, likeit may just be that obvious. So
uh but no. But you know, I I really did enjoy Kimeers reasoning.

(01:00:04):
I don't necessarily have to agree withall of it, you know,
Like, like I'm not saying likehe's right. I just think it's compelling,
and it's I need bad guys tobe more than just because I'm evil,
ha ha ha ha that I'm soover that. I'm so over like
why do you want to do thisbecause I'm a bad guy. It's like
I need a reason to care whyyou should even be want to be stopped?
You know. So like I likethat. I like his vested interest

(01:00:29):
in his but also his whole plan. In the first episode, he tells
her in his mask the best way, the only way to kill a Jedi
was out a weapon, right,and the little dissertation I had earlier some
Palpatine. Palpatine had the Jedi killedthemselves in within right, they fell apart
because he literally overstanded them, madethem do things they were not supposed to

(01:00:52):
be doing, which they went fromJedi masters to generals, which is not
what the Jedi are supposed to do. And they got exposed to a Horzor
war, and the politics and thebureaucratic crap with that got spun up in
it, and they literally let Palpatineunder their noses take over the entire galaxy.
Right. I think Kaymer has somesort of knowledge about what happened on

(01:01:14):
brend Doc. I think he hasa connection to Vanessa Rowe and he is
trying to get that exposed so theworld or the galaxy or whatever and see
the Jedi for what he believes theyreally are, which aren't good people,
and they'll be destroyed from within.They're already starting to do it. They're
already like, well, we can'tlet the High Council know this. We

(01:01:36):
have to take care of this ourown. And like, also, I
didn't I never caught that in VanessaRowe. In this episode, she's like,
oh, prepare a plane or togo to Kofar, and the guy's
like, how do you know?He's like, I sent them there.
So the High Council really has noidea what's going on. And not even
like the Jedi around her really know, you know. And I haven't seen
Kiati money since that one part,So maybe he actually doesn't know what's going

(01:01:57):
on. Maybe he heard that messageand he went on about his Jedi business
and a hundred years past he forgotabout far. Yeah he knows what to
go far, but I don't.But from my understanding, which I guess,
we said, he was cut outof that episode. Maybe that's why,
you know, just just saving KiyatiMundy people like you know, a
hundred dude, I forgot what Iate for breakfast this morning. That man's
one hundred years later. He canforget some things. Okay, that's a

(01:02:20):
joke. Calm down, we don'twant to get it. But I think
that's Kymer's plan. I'm gonna bewrong because the show has not done anything
I thought it was gonna do.But I think that makes sense. I
think what's going to happen is maybehe knows something and he shares with Osha
and Soul shares with May, sothey're both going to be more inclined to

(01:02:40):
go to the people that told them, and it's going to be like a
reverse So instead of May being withthe with Kymri on the bad side.
May is going to be with theJedi on the good side, and Osha
is going to be on the badside with the with the set. I
could say that because they keep callinghim Set. So when I was rewatching
the Accolyte on Disney Plus, Iwanted to look suggested in the extras to

(01:03:00):
see there anything, and there's notmuch, just a trailer. But then
I looked at the details. Thissays one hundred years before the rise of
the Empire, the Jedi Order andthe Glactic Republic have prospered for centuries without
war. During this time, aninvestigation into a shocking crime spree pits a
Jedi master against a dangerous warrior fromhis past. So Saul, if this

(01:03:29):
is Saul, has to have aconnection to Chymer then if that, if
I guess I would have initially readthat upon watching the first episode as May
being the warrior from his past,because maybe with that badass in episode one,
I mean, I guess so,But like May was never like in
his past. Really May was ina moment Osha is in his past.

(01:03:52):
Yeah, yeah, he has timewith Osha. He has an experience with
Osha that they're saying that that's thewhole driving point of it is what happened
on bran Dock in the past,So she's she's turning from his past.
She's been gone missing, presumed dead. Now she's back and causing trouble,
so he has to face off againstit. I think that that's a description
written for early in the episode,so I wouldn't read into that, like,
Yeah, I think we can establishthat Soul does not have a pass

(01:04:15):
with Kimer because he met him faceto face on Olega, didn't remember everything,
and then talking was it might haveeven been this episode talking about you
know, he didn't recognize Kimier's darknesswhen he met him on Olega. He
said that in this episode, soI think that's the I sent something familiar
he remembers him from seeing from themeeting there. They don't have a pass,

(01:04:39):
I don't think, and if theydo. If they do, then
it's going to be kind of sloppywriting here because they've given us every indication
to think that they don't. Unlet'srecognize him. But I mean I don't
know. Yeah, next episode wherewe will finally find out what happened,
will we will I mean they don't. They got too themselves up to do

(01:05:00):
it. And I'm assuming the lastepisode will be the climax or the finish
the present. Yeah, I literallyI My prediction for the next episode is
that, like Saul left, Idon't know why Saul left. I mean,
it's because the script needs him to, but it just makes him look
silly unless there's, like I'm saying, like the more thing Saul does,
I'm like, please just be badscriptwriting, because like, I'm so afraid

(01:05:26):
of what they're gonna make me seethis man had done because the way he,
like, like you said, theway he reacts everything so far,
very very emotionally. It's like,oh, this god can be a loose
cannon if pushed apparently in you know, I hope he yeah, chose to
die then didn't face this, todie after being in like stasis for ten
years after just as some teenager justwalked in and said, Hey, I'm

(01:05:48):
gonna tell on you what who andthat person had killed the like nobody's gonna
listen to this teenager who just killedanother Jedi masters. So yeah, I
don't know. So that the cruxof this show is based off this next
episode essentially whether all this is worthit or all this is genuinely is like
a frustrating waste of time. I'mterrified about what's going to happen next episode.

(01:06:13):
The Soul and May stuff is frustratingbecause they have like they're literally in
on the script. They're not makingsense in the own story. Venestra Row
is shady and is now suddenly seemsto be a main player in the story
when I just had relegated her toa side character in my mind, like
a non important factor. And thenthe only interesting part about it is Kimer

(01:06:35):
and I guess his seduction of Oshaas well as well as most of America
and the world to the dark side. Do you guys think that planet is
that one planet that everyone thinks itis. I can't pronounce it starts going
to be from from plagis in well, I know a lot of people thought

(01:06:57):
it was Acto like I did itfirst when I first walking through, Like,
oh my god, I think it'snot. Patros is the one that
everybody is guessing. I think that'swhat I be Like. They specifically made
a marker on the screen to sayunknown planet when they said that, I

(01:07:17):
genuine I was like I could not. I was, like, they have
those in Star Wars. But alsothat would make sense for I too.
Also, yeah, but it's justlike they're they're going with the Disney thing
of saying what planet around, whichstarted with Roguan, which I love.
I love that too. I dolove because some of them are similar.
But like the fact that you putspecifically unknown planet. Who's who is it

(01:07:42):
unknown to? Is it unknown toeveryone? Like no one knows the name
of this planet. Okay, it'sball Dimnic. I'm probably mispronouncing that Cupologia.
I do, but uh, itwas a feature on the original Clone
War show. And the reason theythink that is because that planet was used
by Yeah, because it has arich positive cortosis, which they show a
vein of it inside of his house. I was, I'm the planet I

(01:08:02):
had said before was one that Bainwas mining on. That's sorry. Yeah,
so we will I mean, we'llsee. I hope we'll learn with
this, but yeah, I meanit's it's crazy. Yeah. This was
probably one of the better, ifnot the best episode of the show.
And it's because of Camier in Oshaand not because he was naked. It's

(01:08:28):
because of the conversation between him.Sure, keV, Yeah, I know,
I'm mind to myself as a solidSegway. Yeah, yeah, I
guess it's I guess we've we've we'veranted about this enough where I've rented a
lot, so I apologize again.Well, we'll keep our rulings to Saint.
I must speak with the Jedi Councilimmediately. The situation has become much
more complicated. I'll just agree withkeV there and say, this is the

(01:08:54):
best episode of the show we've hadso far. I'm gonna give it a
master because I've given other episodes amaster. Uh, I mean, yeah,
I'm I'm I'm I know it's gonnasound crazy. I'm because Chris,
I think you're going to be thesensible one of us. I'm going to
give it a master just because thisplays so much into my things that I
like about Star Wars. And nowI'm terrified, Joey, I'm terrified for

(01:09:14):
Chris to read Dark Disciple because becauseDark Disciple has a dark a very sexy
dark side user talking to a blackJedi with dreadlocks with a tattoo on his
face. Well, is it scaryfor me to read it? Wait?
Are we not just watching the darkdisciple? No, it's because there's very

(01:09:36):
much more of this, like ayou know how cool the dark side is
over here? We're having fun onthis side and you're just boring over there,
you know. It's it's that kindof a thing that is not my
problem with this. It's interesting.I'm going to give this an apprentice.
I think that there's I can't forgiveeverything just because the kind you had a

(01:09:58):
good two minute conversation with Osha,Yeah, we had a couple more,
good man, you had a couplemore good minutes in that ship. I
just I can't. I can't forget, like the sole soulmate portion of this
blows my mind and where where itwent, what's doing it made no sense
to me at all. And Ican't forget that we're all coming at this
from different ways. We have differentpieces that we like and different things that

(01:10:20):
intrigue us. And I'm still justjust wishing this story was totally completely different.
I wish that they did better jobof pacing it out and giving us
more. And I still like thisepisode again was a shorter one and I
just like it finished. It's likethat that's how we're gonna end here?
Is that supposed to be a cliffhanger? The fact that she puts the helmet
on like she was curious about itand seeing and they said that was kind

(01:10:42):
of like the the Padawan helmets atthe Jedi Temple, Like it's it's not
that. I don't think that's herturney to the dark side or anything yet,
she just learned a helmet. Ithink she's connecting back with the force
doing that. I just like,fully, yeah, yeah, it's not
a cliphanger for me, it's not. It's not a way to end the
episode. I just wish that thesewere longer and gave us more so I

(01:11:03):
would care more about these characters.You uh, you wrote and we should
we should you should say this afterthe last episode, once the show was
done, or at least a season. You you wrote down how you would
have mapped out this season, andI think it's really good and I want
to see what they do in theshow to compare it to what you would
have done, like using the samethings in the episodes, just placing them

(01:11:25):
where you put them, and we'llsee if the show would have flowed better
for us, because I think youhad a really good breakdown of how you
think the show should have went.Well, thank you, I'll say that
for at the end, when we'redone, we'll see that it played out
the right way. Awards. Yes, MVP Chimer sweeps. I'm just kidding.
I mean, yeah, I guessthe only reason that people, even

(01:11:45):
people who did not like, evenpeople who have like been on internet not
liking the show, had something positiveto say about Chymer this episode. So
I guess, like you kind ofhave to give it to him. Well,
he's I think he's probably the reasonpeople are still watching the show.
Yeah, you know, all right. I agree. It's hard to believe,
but I agree. I'm seriously,I don't dislike the story that I

(01:12:11):
don't think it's happy. I justit's such a good story. Yes,
yes, I can't forgive all thestuff that's happening that's making getting me to
this point. It's I don't thinkanybody's gonna sit here when this whole I
mean, yeah, there will beyes, I think I think for myself
personally, at the end of thisshow, I am going to be glad
that this story is in this pocketof the Star Wars universe. Like I'm

(01:12:35):
glad it's here I want them tokeep doing this. keV was talking about
things that about the show that justmake him anxious about everything. For me,
the biggest thing is, please don'ttake the negativity and say, oh,
people don't want to be in thisera of Star Wars. Whe people
don't want to do you know,and just kind of like what they did

(01:12:56):
with Solo, where it didn't performwell because people were at the end of
the day, people we had aboutthe last Jedi, like, I mean,
Solo isn't my favorite, but thatwas fun. I mean, it
was a fun thing that we couldhave exploreded anyway. I'll get off that
soapbox. But I hope that Ihope that we don't take them the wrong
lessons from this show. Who isour comeback player? I guess Vernestra because

(01:13:23):
it was just a cameo appearance earlierin the show, and how she's a
major player. Yeah, but Idon't think she gets an award, she
gets a scheme later. I agree. I don't think there's anybody else that
we can give them for the YordHorde, because that was a disturbing shot
of Jackie and Yord. I'll tellyou that I did not enjoy seeing the
lifeless bodies. No, who isthe rookie? What was that pot of

(01:13:48):
one's name? Mog Pogg Pog mog. Yeah, yeah, there he is.
It's like Maga Donna. I thinkaccording to Wikipedia, I guess him.
Yeah. If is e Vanestra's padawan, I don't know. I don't
think so, because he was gonna, you know, he was doing his

(01:14:09):
own thing. He was to herpadawan assistant, who is our skin award?
Basil? Now hear me out,quit dancing and just go tell Saul
there's a killer on the ship.What what are you gonna do? You're
gonna stomp on Basle, Basle,You're gonna stop on her? Killed multiple

(01:14:33):
Jedi and another problem, another problemwith the pacing and writing of the show.
A scene before that, we're seeingthe lifeless body of Jeckie and your
snap broken neck and a bunch ofdead Jedi, and the next second later
we have Basil dancing to whimsical music, stomping on her foot this assassin killer

(01:14:53):
and getting sprayed in the eye andher screaming like we're supposed to laugh,
and then factory resetting Pip like aniPhone. Literally she pushed two buttons in
once like you and it turned off. No, we gotta do it.
It's it's Basil. No, it'sit's yeah, Basil gets the plants in

(01:15:17):
the same vein. Then I thinkI know who the Wight Award is.
Who's that? Oh yeah, pourone out for Pip he could get No
One's ever really gone down the roadtoo if somehow they unfactory reset him,
they changed the SI card back in, will three p o get and and

(01:15:41):
no One's ever really gone? Andwhen we finally get to Rise of Skywalker,
Oh my god, I'm happy tobe able my friends. You don't
know any of these people. Man, I am not touching that right now.
Your real friends are all dead.I've been negative enough. I am
not touching the Skywalker. I won'tbe positive about the guys. Just prepare
yourself. I'm not a fan ofthat movie. Well, in about ten

(01:16:02):
years, all the gaps are gonnabe filled in and it's gonna be great.
Oh yeah, be so good.Also, wait, wait again,
So like last episode, there wasall the hints to Kylo Ren theme just
all dropped now and Leslie Leslie Headlinsaid there's a reason it was in there.
She just can't say what it wasyet, so I guess we'll find

(01:16:24):
out episode eight. Just reminding,yeah, I guess we'll find out episode
eight. All right, to thetally board. Another episode short on entries.
We have a plus one for CannonImmigrants for the light whip, Yes,
which appeared in some Legends books.I had them here and then I

(01:16:45):
lost my notes, so there's therewas some I think it was like some
some Jedi Apprentice books where there's someindications to it. Darth Baine storylines also
had included, so it's something thatwas in Legends and brought over. And
also lightsaber whips are cool, andalso so our lightsaber helicopters all are cool.

(01:17:09):
I love that shots fire. Thatis a targeted note to one person.
You know who you are. OhMan, Well, Joey, it
was great having you on the show. I appreciate. We also have a

(01:17:30):
plus one for Monster attack because theumber months attacked druck back. Yeah,
she whipped that thing. So thatbrings Canon Immigrants to forty nine, okay,
and Monster attacks to twenty six.Sounds like Star Wars. All right,
keV, pick us out with ajoke, please. You gotta end

(01:17:53):
this on a high note. Okay, guys, you guys ready for a
Star Wars joke of the week.Always Okay? So I was on Spotify
and you guys know, the generalgrievous shared a public playlist on that thing.
Oh really yeah, I couldn't getinto It's way too much Weezer,
yes, and what that. Maythe Force be with you and Always hold

(01:18:15):
On to Star Wars. Always holdOn To Star Wars is a part of

(01:19:04):
the Always hold On To network.The podcast and brought to you by listeners
like you. For a full listof patrons, listen to our flagship show,
Always hold On Smallville, Always HoldOn Star Wars. Theme music is
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(01:19:29):
at May the Pod Be with You, and you can send us an email
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