December 8, 2025 • 58 mins
Host: David DeRose, MD, MPH. Guests: Tom Waters, Marriage and Family Coaching, Co-founder, Restoration International; Joni Bokovoy, DrPH, MPH (Cherokee Nation). Description: In this week's show, Tom Waters of Restoration International shares practical, heartfelt tools for strengthening marriage, starting with the simple but transformative habit of listening to understand rather than to react. He explains how couples can identify and break their “cycle of malfunction,” take responsibility, and work together toward real resolution and harmony. In the final segment, Dr. Joni Bokovoy brings her Native American health expertise to the table, introducing the SMART Goals framework to help listeners make sustainable, life-changing choices. For further information: rionline.org; joni4s@me.com (jonib@nativeministries.org).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to American Indian and Alaska Native Living, a program
designed to educate and inspire listeners throughout Indian Country. American
Indian and Alaskan Native Living is hosted by doctor David Deroz,
a board certified specialist in both internal medicine and preventive medicine.
Doctor Deroz has a wide range of experience with native
(00:25):
health issues, and he is here today to help you
learn more about your health. Here is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to American Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor
David de Rose. Where we are recording another segment at
the Venue of ASI twenty twenty five. We're in Orlando, Florida,
and we've got another amazing guest sitting across from me
in our virtual studio here in the exhibit hall. It's
Tom Waters. Tom. It's great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thank you, David. It's always nice to be back. It's
been a while since we've done something together, so this
is great.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It is great. I know Elaine was waiting in the
world willing to join us, but the way we're set
up today, just one guest is my capacity. Folks know you, Tom,
they know Elane, they know that you've been working together
for years helping strengthen families. Tell us for the benefit
of some who may not have run across you, guys,
what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, So we have the privilege and I do miss
my wife when she's not sitting next to me and
doing these things, But we have the privilege of working
together with marriages. Primarily, we love marriage. We love what
can happen in marriage if we cooperate, and we've been
through our own things, which we've shared some of those
(01:39):
things on your program before. But we love marriage and
have a passion that marriage can be so much more
than what we get in our ruts and business as usual,
having in so many marriages that we end up talking
coaching with, counseling with. So we love how our marriage
(02:00):
is being changed. We love falling more in love with
each other, and so we have high expectations for what
we can have in marriage and what others can have too.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Tremendous. Now, some folks when they heard marriage, they're about
to shut off the show because things have gone pretty
poorly in that domain. Maybe someone's right now in the
midst of marital conflict difficulties, maybe separation, divorce proceedings, may
be in the works, and we're going to just start
on that premise that we've got a lot of hurting
people when it comes to marriages. This is not sounding
(02:34):
like a good show. Why is it? Could be good
news what we talk about today.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
It's going to be good news because we've been in trouble.
We've gone through some very difficult things, particularly in early marriage.
But we chose not to give up on our marriage,
not to give up on each other, and we didn't
realize how amazing marriage can be. Okay, so that's good news.
(03:00):
It is for people who are in conflict right now.
We have had people in our presence at some of
our marriage retreat. Nobody else in the retreat knew it.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You've been at our marriage I have. We enjoyed joining
you guys.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
It's a blessing. But who were prepared to sign papers
on the following Monday for divorce and those people are
living a life they've never experienced in marriage, more happy
than they've ever been, and they tore up those.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Divorce papers tremendous.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Oh it just it gets me up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, just for the record, for our listeners, my wife
and I didn't show up at your marriage encounter weekend
because we had divorce proceedings underway. We've just enjoyed your
practical counsel that you've given here on American, Indian and
Alaska Native living over the years, as well as what
you've done in so many venues. And my wife had
been telling me for years, I just really want to
(04:01):
go to one of their programs daither Way, and I
forget why things aligned. Usually I always had some good
reason why I couldn't go, and I knew it was
in her heart to go, but I was really blessed
as well to be there.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, thank you. We're glad that you were willing to
take the time, carve out the time because we know
your lives.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Are very busy. So for those who are still scratching
their heads, Yeah, maybe they've heard of Tom and Elaine Waters.
Maybe they haven't. There's a one are these guys talking about?
What do they do? Who are they? Let's step back
talk about how someone can connect with you guys, and
then talk about right now some practical help for individuals
(04:39):
who may be struggling in a marital relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, so as far as getting connected with us, they
can go on Rionline dot org. There's a place right
up front where somebody can click on that for coaching,
and they can come in for coaching. For marriage, they
can come in because they want to find a wife,
they want their sick, looking for relationship principles, they're dealing
(05:03):
with parental problems. They can click on that and fill
out a little form that gets some basic information about
what they're dealing with, and that's a place to start
coaching if somebody's needing something like that.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Okay, let me make sure I've got this right. You
guys call your organization Restoration International, correct, Yes, So the
website is the abbreviation for that r I. And then
what comes after.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
That online just ad out O N l I, n E, YEP.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Dot org, okay online dot org, RI online dot org.
And then if I go on that website, I'll find
an opportunity to YEP coaching coaching.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Okay, Yeah, it's right there. It's pretty plain and you
can click on that and it just tells you exactly
what to do.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And you'll help people from a distance.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yes, anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Steep price tag.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
No, not compared to what most people are Okay, our
intake you want me to be specific, Go ahead, go
for it. Yeah. So our intake for a couple who
wants to do some marriage coaching is seventy five dollars
for the first session intake, which is our hour and
a half.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
After that, it's sixty dollars for any follow ups. Okay,
that's pretty inexpensive in terms of a lot of people
who call us and say, well, I was paying one
hundred and fifty bucks an hour for the guy I
was going.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
To Uh huh, No, that's reasonable, that's reasonable. Okay, many
people are not going to go to rionline dot org,
but I know you want to help them anyway. That's
why you're sitting across from Yes, help us out conflict
in a marriage. Where do you start if you're giving
people some general principles?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, So our default mode, our humanity has a default mode,
and that is if something goes wrong between you and I.
Now it's tougher in the marriage because you and I
can We may as a couple of guys will have
our own ways of coping with things, but in marriage,
the default mode is if I could just get you
to see what I'm trying to say, we would have
(07:03):
a lot better marriage. But you don't listen to me. Okay,
you can hear a little passion in there, a little
bit of what we call self me focused, me centric.
That's where we tend to go. There's a defensiveness. Something's
going wrong. It's probably your fault, okay, because I think
I'm right. But do you kind of think you're right?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
David?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Okay? I mean all of us. We wouldn't be thinking
the way we think if we didn't think we were right.
And so often when conflict happens, what I'm interested in
is what I want you to listen to. What you're
interested in is could you please hear my heart? Okay?
(07:47):
And when that's not happening, we get into defensiveness, we
get into real conflict, and then people go into their
corners and unfortunately they don't come out except maybe this
see if somebody on the other side has changed. Nope,
no change, going back into my corner, or occasionally go
(08:08):
out to throw a punch. I don't know why I
had this thought. For many years, I've seen two boxers
in or boxing ring and they come out to throw
a punch or they're waiting to see you know, what
their opportunity is. So for us. One of the things
that really revolutionized our marriage. And this is gonna sound
like not rocket science, but very simple. Listen to understand.
(08:35):
Don't just listen to either interrupt or tell what you
want to know. Okay, listen to understand.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So many times, like you said, it seems like we
come to a discussion with our own agendas and you're saying,
just pause, try to really hear the other person. Listen
to understand. Why has that changed the equation?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Because if my desire. When I started to understand this,
which is why I love to talk about this kind
of stuff, When I started getting this in my own
head and heart, what a difference it made in reducing
our conflict and resolving our conflict. Okay, two good hours
(09:23):
reduce had less of it because I listened better. Works
better when both of us listen better. But I started it.
I confess to my wife, you know I've been cutting
you off. I've been rude and interrupted. I've said I
know what you're gonna say. You don't even have to
(09:43):
finish your sentence. Those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's pretty bad. Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
That happens more in marriage than it does between a
couple of guys. Sitting around joying time. So when I
began to realize that if I would listen to my wife,
it was such a blessing to her that she said
to me, if I knew that you actually understood me
(10:09):
and were really hearing me, it wouldn't matter nearly as
much if you didn't agree with me. But when I
don't think you're listening, and when I don't think you
hear me, then it grieves me because I think maybe
we wouldn't have a disagreement if you really heard my heart.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Now you've got my mind going in a lot of directions.
We walked into this wanting to talk about marriages that
we're struggling, and that's clearly the focus of what we're
dealing with. But I know there's folks representing all kinds
of tribal entities, private sector organizations, public entities. It may
(10:55):
not be tribal, and I think as we're talking, people
might be saying if there's conflict either in the workplace
or in the homeowners association or in the tribal council
that although in Indian country, I think there's a much
healthier respect for listening in the words of other people
(11:16):
than maybe some other cultural backgrounds. Still, it sounds like
you're speaking about some principles that don't only have a
bearing on marriages. Am I hearing you correctly?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Absolutely, it just gets intense in marriage because what happens
often behind closed doors, and nobody's proud of this, I hope,
But we do it. We can get pretty into our
way of thinking when it's husband and wife. It's not
quite as easy to do that. If you and I
are sitting across and negotiating a business transaction, we're not
(11:50):
necessarily going to get is into self or me centric
focus in that arrangement. We can tone it down. But
marriage where it often happens raw and butt, he's sad sometimes.
Oh yeah, it's all. It's good for friendships, it's good
for business, it's good for any relationship.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
But I hear what you're saying. The expectation and marriage
is this is supposed to be good for me. It's
supposed to make me feel good, you know. Marriage is
supposed to be a blessing. Yes, and so my needs
are supposed to be met. And if that's how I
go into the dialogue with a focus, as you said,
me centric, yes, we're setting ourselves up for failure.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Huh, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Okay, So folks are listening to us and they're getting
the message. We need to listen to understand where do
things go from there.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
So once we do that and everything that I'm sharing
with you right now, just here open. I don't want
to say off the cuff because I have a passion
for this.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
No, I know this is not the first time you're
talking about this every.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Time we are even one side of the relationship. Okay,
So if we're a nerriage, even if it's just me,
because I'm commitment to God. Okay, So I'm a Christian
as you know, and prayer is a part of my life.
I made a commitment to God, and I said, I'm
going to see what I can do to make a difference.
(13:12):
I can't really change my wife, I can't really change you,
but I can even get upset about it, or I
can see if I can make a difference. I make
a difference without compromising what I believe or a principle
that's involved. But I'm going to see if I can
make a difference by listening to you better. Okay, Okay,
(13:34):
Instead of assuming that you just need to listen to
me better. Okay. That's the me centric focus, and that
gets nowhere. Whether it's marriage or anything business, friendship, it
gets nowhere.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Okay. So we're trying to get out of these blinders
that keep us focused on our own needs, expressing ourselves,
expecting that the other person is the one who really
has the obligation of hearing me. We're really taking an
interest in the other person. Tom. We got to build
on this foundation because once issues become apparent, there can
(14:09):
be real problems.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Right absolutely, they need to be resolved.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Okay, So we want to look at things we can
do to resolve problems, but we can't do it in
this segment. We do have to step away. Just briefly.
I'm doctor David Deurose my guest Tom Waters. He's the
president and co founder of an organization called Restoration International.
If you're just joining us, the website is our I
for Restoration International online dot org. We're talking about things
(14:36):
that can help you if you're in a difficult place
with your marriage, and dare I say it, if you're
in a great place, can help strengthen your marriage. Stay tuned,
Tom is staying bye. I am two. We'll be right
back after.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
This Today's broadcast has been pre recorded. However, if you
have questions about today's show or would like further information,
please reach out to us on the web at aia
n L dot org that stands for American Indian Alaska
(15:08):
Native Living Again aia n L dot org, or you
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That's one eight hundred seven seventy five four six seventy three.
We'll be right back after this.
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We are strong, we are resilient, and we will get
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You're listening to doctor David Deurouz on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five. Hope, that's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Welcome back to American, Indian and Alaska Native Living on
Doctor David Deurose. Tom Waters is across from me in
the live exhibit venue of ASI twenty twenty five, being
held in the summer of twenty twenty five in Orlando, Florida. Tom,
we're speaking about strengthening marriages, especially when people come to
areas where they are challenged. You're saying a key is
(18:11):
to listen, to actually hear the other person, listen for understanding. Yes,
help us build on that concept.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, that's revolutionary. Actually it was for our marriage. It
was for me as a man. You know, we men
and can be Number one, clueless. I can own that
because I have been clueless in my past, especially in marriage,
and I'm not clueless anymore. But a lot of us
can be clueless and walk right over the top of
(18:41):
our spouse in our communication. When we listen to understand,
then we are more prepared truly to understand our spouse
and to be ready to take ownership for some of
the things that we've done to bring conflict to the table.
Just pointing to you or pointing to my spouse, I'm
ready to say, Okay, this isn't really all your faults.
(19:04):
I'm ready to take some ownership here. When that happens,
that's revolutionary to a relationship. Okay, if it's marriage, and
I'm speaking of it, and you know our marriage, my
wife and I. It was amazing the difference it made
when I began to lead the way in that because
I was the one talking over her, I was the
one interrupting her. I was the one saying, I know
(19:26):
what you're gonna say. You don't even have to say
another word. I get it. I didn't get it, okay,
because I wasn't listening. So once I understood what she
was saying, I was prepared to take ownership for some
of the things that were breaking down our communication. Okay,
that's important.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So when there's conflict, even if someone is willing to
admit some responsibility, I think most people, it seems, at
least in my experience, they go into it well with
at least the other person is mostly at fault. But
what I hear you saying, is even if and tell
me if I'm missing you totally, Even if I can
(20:03):
admit I'm only one percent of fault, if there's something
that I can acknowledge where I'm part of the problem,
this could be a key part of the solution or
am I missing So it's huge, Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
It's huge, especially if in my case, I happened to
be the one that was doing most of the poor
listening and poor communication. For me to take some percentage
of ownership was like we're breaking open into a new
place here. Okay, you have to understand in this setting,
my wife said I was the best male communicator she
(20:35):
had ever had in her life prior to marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Okay, so prior to marriage. So this had already primed
you to think you couldn't have any deficiencies in this area.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yes, I was pretty good.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And so I had to go through all kinds of
things that many men have to go through, and that
is quieting down ego pride, I'm right, my way of
the high weigh all these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
And so when my wife in the first eighteen months
of our marriage, we really bumped into some hard things
communication wise, and this guy who was the great communicator
was not a great communicator anymore. I was a self focused,
ncentric guy, had no idea it was going to come
out like that. But when I started taking some ownership,
it gave her new hope. Okay, me taking responsibility with
(21:26):
the contrast of what had happened made a huge difference
my wife. He immediately wanted to take more responsibility on
her side. Oh, I've been more critical of you. I've
been picking at you. It's like, wow, I didn't She's
just saying that to me. So I opened up. She
opened up, and then we were able to start processing.
(21:49):
This is a big key that most marriages never get to. Wow,
processing how to make the difference, how to resolve the issues.
There's nothing in my life and I have not been
able to resolve in the last I mean, we've been
married forty five years now. Okay, we have an amazing marriage,
(22:09):
by the grace of God. We give God credit for that.
But we've cooperated in amazing ways and there is nothing today.
And I'm thankful to be able to say this doesn't
mean it won't be something tomorrow. It'll be tough, but
we have been able to realize such success in our
communication and process everything that's gotten thrown in our path
(22:32):
in our marriage in such a practical and understanding way
that we just continue to grow in our communication and
we get excited about this, and we want other marriages
to experience us.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
You've got to tell us some stories, because I know
folks were speaking theoretically. I know you're speaking from your
own experience, but tell us maybe about some couples that
you've worked with and maybe specifically what the issues might
have been. I think my listeners are hearing this challenge
but illustrated for us a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah, So let me first say that processing is an
important but missing element. Okay, So being able to process
actually break down what is taking place, what is happening
to our communication? Why are we not seeing eye to
eye in our finances? Fortunately that that's never been a
(23:24):
problem for us in our marriage, but it is in
many for sure. For sure, and so I can give
you lots of examples. Okay, I can give you examples
of marriages where the guy is going to run the
finances and he makes it very clear shortly after marriage
(23:45):
that the way the finances operate in this home are
controlled and governed by me, and as long as you
stay on the program, will do fine financially. Now, maybe
that works, but we've dealt with couples where it does
not work very long because the control that that guy
wants to have on the finance is when he says it,
(24:06):
that strongly ends up being controlled he wants to have
on his wife in other areas of life. Okay, We've
seen people that have been so broken in the area
of finance, okay, that the husband is hiding what he's
doing while he's telling his wife, you need to follow
(24:26):
my program for how we manage our finances, and he's
hiding huge sums of money that he's spending on craziness. Okay.
So anyway, there's a racial in proportion to anything in
conflict that we have found that if somebody is hyper
sensitive to hyper control another person for the sake of
(24:50):
what sounds good, they're doing something that's very bad on
the other end of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So this is interesting. So what I hear you saying
is this should be a red flag absolutely the other party.
And even if in the scenario you mentioned, if a
woman may want to defer to her husband's judgment financially.
But often in these situations, if things are not going well,
the person is thinking, the wife is thinking, well, you know,
(25:17):
I think we could be doing something differently, or maybe
we should be doing X, Y or Z differently. And
yet that's not on the table to discuss.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
That's right, because really what's behind it is that what's
on the table is his dishonesty, lack of integrity, and
he's been unwilling to change his In this case with
this man, he was unwilling to be clean and honest
about his finances when he got into marriage, thought he
could hide it, trying to manage the downside of his
(25:46):
finances and is crazy spending. By controlling his wife's spending,
she couldn't spend a dime. Maybe a little exaggerate, Okay,
outside of his he had to run everything through him,
and it caught up to him because he was doing
stuff that she knew nothing about and got exposed in
ways he never thought would happen. So this kind of
(26:09):
control is very damaging.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Okay, So let's talk about I'm assuming, because we're telling
this story that these folks got some help or yes,
And so where does the breakthrough happen in something like this,
So the.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Breakthrough happens now circle back around to take ownership for
what he's done, because there's forgiveness here, at least from
where I look at life. We can see somebody who
truly is sorry if they are, and we can truly
forgive them. But that's not enough. There needs to be reconciliation.
(26:44):
There needs to be change that happens, and that's where
the change in the communication needs to take place, the
processing how are we going to do life differently? And
we were able to help step these people through how
they're going to make the changes as practically and as
you know, just fundamentally as they were willing to talk
(27:07):
about it, and they ended up in a place where
they had never experienced the love in their marriage, the
trust in their marriage ever before, in the years prior
to this, even before she found out what he was
doing behind the scenes, because he was willing to break
out of it, he was willing to come clean, and
then they were willing to process change together. They came
(27:30):
into that processing of change as two people side by
side who were equals in the marriage in terms of
going forward from here as a team, rather than him
covertly running and controlling everything while doing opposite of what
he was trying to tell her she had to do.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So I hear A big part of resolution when it
comes to conflict and relationships has to do with really
truly being open listening, yeah, and then being genuine and
what you're sharing. You're really having that open level of communication.
We call it authentic authentic.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Okay, okay, because today, and you know this is Wallace
I do today, you can be whoever you want to
be on social media. You can be one person at
your work, another person at your church, another person on
social media. And if you're not authentic, you can't be
(28:33):
anybody else in your marriage. It's impossible.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Okay, fair enough, We got to talk some more. Can
you stay by for one more segment with you?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Okay, We've got Tom Waters. We want to give you
some more practical pointers to help you in your relationships.
I'm doctor David DeRose the show American Indian and Alaska
Native Living. We'll be back with the second half of
the program right after this.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
American Indian and Alaska Native Living will continue in a moment.
If you have questions or comments about today's pre recorded broadcast.
Please contact us on the web at AIA n L
dot org or call one eight hundred seven seven five hope.
That's one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy
(29:23):
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for your phone. When an officer's in trouble. Call nine
to one one. Tell the operator where you are and
what you see. Then start your video to provide evidence later.
(29:47):
To learn more about how you can assist law enforcement,
visit Nationalpolice dot org. That's Nationalpolice dot Org.
Speaker 9 (29:56):
Unlike other health concerns, mental illness is not always easy
to see. Depression won't show up on an eye chart,
and you can't measure it on your bathroom scale. Sorting
out a mental health concern is not something to attempt
on your own. You won't find a bipolar disorder by
looking at a thermometer. Like many other health conditions, help
(30:19):
from mental illness takes professional diagnosis and treatment. Anxiety won't
just go away under a stick on bandage, so the
sooner you seek treatment, the better. If you or a
loved one has a mental health concern, don't go it alone.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Find out what to do.
Speaker 9 (30:37):
For twenty four hour free and confidential information and treatment referral.
Call one eight hundred and sixty six y two help.
Learn more at SAMSEID dot gov slash support. That's sam
HSA dot gov slash support.
Speaker 10 (30:55):
Using math taught me everything about freedom, only not I
you think it taught me how easy it is to
lose your freedom. If you think meth is taking control
of you, ask for help. You have the power to
be truly free. I know I'm Yon and I'm free
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Speaker 8 (31:13):
If you or someone you know is struggling with meth,
call one eight hundred sixty six two help for twenty
four hour free and confidential treatment referral. Learn more at
SAMHSA dot gov slash meth.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
You're listening to doctor David Deurouz on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Welcome back to the second half of Today's edition of American,
Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor David Deurouz, Tom Waters,
president of Restoration International, sitting across from me and Tom.
If we don't get a chance at the end of
this segment to give out your website, please do that
one more time.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Ari online dot org, Ari online dot org.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Okay, So all folks have to remember is Restoration International.
If that's too much of a mouthful, think of the
state of Rhode Island. Are online dot org and that
will bring them right to your website. They can get
tappingto educational resources there.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Everything's lots of resources there. Opportunities for coaching are there,
Just a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Of resources tremendous. Bring us back to this challenge that
so many relationships face. We're learning that if we want
to have harmony restored, we've got to listen to each other.
We've got to be willing to take responsibility. We have
to be authentic. We can't be hiding things when we're
saying we're communicating. There's got to be still more than
(32:56):
that though, right.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yes, and that's why I use the word processing. I've
mentioned it a couple times. This is something that doesn't
happen very well in most marriages. It actually happens better
in business relationships than it does many marriages. This was
one of the turning points again for us, not just
listening to understand, but then once we understood each other,
(33:20):
is how do we go forward from here?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
So I'm using my own example here because we were
in what we call we didn't call this at the time,
but what we've learned to call a cycle of malfunction. Well, yeah,
every marriage has one. Okay, So every marriage has a
cycle of malfunction that can be turned around if we
(33:45):
learned to process our malfunctions.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Okay, I'm hearing the word process and it might conjure
certain things up into my mind, but explain what that
looks like.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
So being able to sit down together, not in the cycle,
but because we've identified the cycle. Okay, when we could
identify that cycle of malfunction, and I say, every marriage
has it, Every marriage that we've ever talked with has
their cycle. Some are you know, they go three months
(34:19):
with broken communication. Some it's three days, some it's an hour,
some it's by the end of the day they're fixed.
But everybody has a cycle. When your wife okay, and
you may not want to say you have one, or
maybe haven't thought about it. But every couple has a
cycle that they get involved in where the wife knows
(34:39):
what the husband's going to do next, and the husband
has a pretty good idea of how the wife's going
to respond. And if they stay in that, it's a
rinse and repeat. They just keep repeating it and it
doesn't ever, it doesn't get better, it gets worse. But
when we're ready to break that cycle, we sit down
together because we've listened, now, we've understood each other. We've
been willing to take some ownership, and now we're going
(35:02):
to talk about what I can do and what you
can do as my spouse with breaking that cycle. What
am I willing to do? I talk about what I
see as the triggers for that cycle. What I see
is the issues that come up, and then my wife
opens up and shares what she sees. So it's not
(35:22):
a blame game. It's now us taking ownership and yeah,
this is what I do in our cycle, this is
how I react. You know, my wife's the conflict of void.
So one of the things in our cycle was if
I wanted to press in there and get to the
finish line on this. Sometimes it was too intense for
her and she'd say, I just need a break. This
(35:43):
is getting too I just the conflict, the strain, the
stress is too much.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So the problem with this, though, is if someone says
I need a break, that's often perceived as the person
doesn't want to process the issues exactly. It could be
a legitimate concern, right, Yes, there could be a need
for some space. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yes? And so for my wife, that's why I'm using
our own example. I came to recognize that, you know,
if she is a conflict avoid she'd rather look for
a peaceful way to solve it. It doesn't always seem
to work that way. So I said, Okay, I understand
I'm too intense. Okay, you need a break. But I said,
(36:23):
in the past, when I'm giving that opportunity and try
to be sensitive to that, you've never come back. You
just want it to go away. It can't go away,
or it's going to repeat itself. And this is what
happens in every marriage. It's going to repeat itself. It's
going to show up in another week, another month, whatever,
six months. So she agreed with me that I will
(36:46):
come back, Okay, I will not avoid it indefinitely. And
so you know, live example here. So I said to
her a couple of weeks ago, I said, so I
understand you want a little break on this, and you
know we will talk about it later. So I said,
just remember that you will come back to me and
(37:07):
you won't forget about it. She said absolutely. So we
don't have that issue anymore because number one, we've learned
how to process conflict. But this is a part of it. Okay,
So we come back and we're willing to look for
a solution, not look for an excuse. We're willing to
talk about the nuts and bolts of why it happens.
(37:27):
If it's money, we're willing to talk about where the
money breaks down. Okay, that hasn't been an issue for us.
But whatever it is, as a couple, we're willing to
talk about it. We're willing to take ownership for what
we'll do to make the difference, and then we're willing
to make that difference. And for us, again, that involves prayer. Okay,
(37:51):
that involves a commitment to each other. We pray about
it together and then we check in and we talk
about the progress we're making, or with talk about what's
not working. This rarely happens in most marriages. They just
get over it, however long it takes, and then it
comes up again and they go through the same cycle.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So basically, what I hear you saying is there's gonna
be points in every relationship where there's tension, where there's difficulties,
where there's differences of opinion, and if those areas are
not addressed, they're only going to resurface. Right, Yeah, So
it's critical that even though we may want to be
in harmony, the way to have harmony is not necessarily
(38:36):
just to not discuss the areas of conflict. In fact,
that's part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Part of the problem. It's just going to recur. It's
not going to go away. We have to resolve it.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Okay, So help us here now, because I think one
of the challenges is when we go into any kind
of conflict, there's going to be a tendency still. Even
if you feel you're listening, each party is likely to
feel that they have an angle on how to solve
that issue. Absolutely, and it may be well mutually exclusive. Right,
(39:11):
one person feels we got to do this the other
person feels there is a different solution. What do you
do when it seems like you are listening, you're hearing
that there's a problem, you want to resolve it, but
you're just in different corners of the issue.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yes, so that's a very good question, because it does happen, okay,
And that's okay, it's honest and sincere. This is where
for us the Bible, the Word of God and those
principles of prayer. If we look at the principles, and
you can do this without the Bible. I mean, there
are principles of morality, there are principles for business, and
(39:43):
there are principles of conflict resolution that you know, I
don't want to set aside God, but there are principles.
And if we see things differently, we can talk about
parenting because a lot of people that we deal with
and we had our own issues in parenting. We have
our way of parenting because we learned it from our parents.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
So Eleaene and I this was one of the areas
that we dealt with and we said, okay, and for us,
we're going for biblical principle. But let's just say, for example,
if you ask your child to do something. Okay, we
had a principle in our home that if we ask
one of our children to do something, we need to
(40:27):
say what we mean and mean what we say. If
we're not going to follow through, don't say it, because
it's worse to say it and not follow through than
to say nothing at all. Until we have the courage
or the continuity or the togetherness as parents, we're not
going to call it out unless we're ready to follow
(40:48):
it through. Okay. So it's a simple example of I
expect my child to obey what I asked them to do.
If they don't, there's going to be consequences. Okay, I'm
just using that as.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
An example, right, right, But we both came to that
conclusion of that's what your expectation was going to be.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
That's exactly right. But that didn't happen without going through
some of this processing.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Okay. So what I love about what you're saying is
ultimately there's got to be some kind of authority outside
the couple. Yes, you're mentioning that. For you as a Christian,
it's the Bible. Yes. For a listener that may be
an atheist or maybe following traditional tribal practices. They might
not resonate with the Bible. But what you're saying is
(41:33):
we'll identify, yep, what principles the two of you are
going to say this is going to guide us either
this Warren Buffett's you know, one hundred best financial principles
or you know when it comes to the am I
falling along with where we're going.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, you're gonna find something you can find harmony and
agreement in, because if you don't, you flounder and you
rinse and repeat in the failures. But you finally come
to something you say, we can agree on this. We're
going to team up on this, We're going to be
united on this, and we're going to tell our children
this is what we expect.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Now Here's I think the real challenge is you might
say there's certain things that we can come to an
agreement on. But you mentioned this example of spending, yes,
and you talked about a couple where one member of
the marital relationship, the guy in the case that you gave,
was hiding expenses. Yes. I think one of the sensitive
issues is can or should there be some kind of
(42:27):
a budget, if possible, where both the husband and wife
can have some discretionary very good spending where the other
person might say you're wasting money and things are tight,
but do you see what I'm asking?
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Absolutely, And when we're dealing with a situation in a couple,
we've had the privilege it's been kind of fun actually
to be able to actually go into someone's home and
they've asked us to help them do a budget. Okay,
And we always talk about discretionary spending, why it's important,
why it's necessary for autonomy, tode, and it can still
(43:01):
be harmonious. We need to do that in any of
the areas that we're going to deal with. What we
agree on, we agree on, but we don't have to
nitpick this to the point that I can't spend five
bucks on something that's you know, goes along with my hobbies,
or my wife can't go out and do something and
you know that's fun for her. So yeah, that's very
(43:22):
important whatever category we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So basically, try to find out what are the non negotiables,
what are you going to work on together, and where
can you be different, where can you still have some
different perspectives, whether it's financially or how you deal with
the kids or a host of other things.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Right, Yeah, there has to be some non negotiables. If
our kids can't talk back to us disrespectfully, we need
to both agree with that. That's a non negotiable. If
the kids can talk back to mom but they can't
talk back to dad, that creates a division in everybody
in the family.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, that's a non nego Tom.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
I know you guys have spent your life doing this,
and there's so much we could talk about. Our time
has just about slipped away. But what I love about
the work that you do is you keep the door open.
You've got a website that's got am I right, both materials, videos,
We can answer this all through there. Yes, and because
(44:21):
a lot of folks probably are not going to just
reach out for marital counseling, but once they see what
you're putting out there, they may be inclined to reach out.
And what kind of response time is there? Have you
got like a waiting list of two years or how
does that work?
Speaker 3 (44:35):
No, I mean our response time is pretty quick. The
only thing that interferes with response time is that we
do have a busy travel schedule. We do seminars all
over the world, so that's the only thing. We'll get
back to people normally within a week to ten days
for a scheduled appointment.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Wonderful, Tom, I know a lot's going on here. You've
got your own booth. Thank you for pulling away.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Oh it's been great. I always like to get together
with you on be able to share.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Definitely mutual. We're gonna step away from my dialogue with Tom.
I've got a native health professional who's waiting in the
wings to join us for our final segment. You're not
gonna want to miss doctor Joni Bakavoy and some exciting
things happening with American, Indian and Alaska Native living. That's
all coming up in our final segment right after this.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Today's broadcast has been pre recorded. However, if you have
questions about today's show or would like further information, please
call one eight hundred seven to seven to five hope.
That's one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 11 (45:41):
If a natural disaster comes knocking, how prepared is your family?
You can't just close the door on earthquakes, floods, or
hurricanes and hope they go away. That's why it's important
to make a plan. Now Ready dot gov slash plan
has the tools and tips you need to prepare your
family for an emergency sestor shows up at your doorstep,
(46:02):
You'll be ready. Visit ready dot gov slash plan and
make a plan today. Brought to you by FEMA and
the AD Council.
Speaker 8 (46:10):
I'm just texting him that I'm just posting a story,
just changing the song.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
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Sending a text takes your eyes off the road for
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Visit stop texts, Stop rex dot org. A message brought
to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Project
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Speaker 13 (46:40):
What is a number story?
Speaker 6 (46:42):
My number story started with fear and lack of support,
and it has led me to be there for others.
Speaker 13 (46:47):
A number story begins in our childhood with aces adverse
childhood experiences.
Speaker 12 (46:53):
My number story begins with the separation from my father
and the emotional abandonment from my mother and leads to
me being a role model to not only myself, well,
but those around me by becoming a person that wasn't
there for me.
Speaker 13 (47:03):
Aces are so common two thirds of us have one.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
My number story begins with drug abuse and homelessness and
leads to realizing that I can live life by my
own standards.
Speaker 13 (47:13):
A study found the more aces, the more likely we
may experience a host of serious health effects, physical and mental.
But that doesn't need to be the case. Your race
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Where it leads is up to you.
Speaker 14 (47:28):
My number story begins with years of emotional abuse and
leads to peace, clarity, and security and my self worth.
Speaker 13 (47:34):
Take control of where your number story leads at numberstory
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Speaker 1 (47:44):
You're listening to doctor David Derouse on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seven five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor DeRose.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Welcome back for our final segment of today's edition of
American Indian and Alaska Native Living. Across from me as
someone who's not a stranger. If you're a regular listener
to our show, we've had the privilege of having doctor
Joni Baccavoy on the program multiple times in the past,
and Joni, I'm so glad we were able to pull
you away from all the business to have you join
us today.
Speaker 7 (48:21):
Thank you, doctor Deroz. Great to be.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Here, Jony, you are an amazing lady. You've done all
kinds of things. Tell us first of all a little
bit about your background and why you're so passionate about
health in Indian country.
Speaker 14 (48:34):
Well, health has always been really important to me. I
grew up in actually as a missionary kid, grew up
in Africa and then Singapore. My dad was a surgeon,
and I was always passionate about trying to.
Speaker 7 (48:45):
Help people be healthier. That was his goal, and.
Speaker 14 (48:49):
So right from early years I was involved in a
lot of things that he was doing because although he
was a surgeon, he was still very passionate about stop smoking,
weight loss, all that other stuff, and so that always
inspired me. And then through my career, I started as
a nurse, got my master's in public health doctor and
public health did some research really focused on things that
(49:09):
can make people healthier, and absolutely every job I've been
part of, I've had that opportunity to help people get healthier,
either from.
Speaker 7 (49:19):
The professional like the employees, or from the patient perspective.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I love your perspective, and you have deep roots in
Indian country. I have a lot of stories of people
with are actually enrolled tribal members that have spent time
as a missionary in Africa.
Speaker 7 (49:34):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Tell us a little bit about that part of the story.
Speaker 7 (49:36):
Well, so it's really interesting.
Speaker 14 (49:38):
My mother was adopted when she was first born, was
adopted out, and then her mom was actually Cherokee, had
Cherokee roots, and her dad had osage and she did
learn a little bit about her birth family when she
was young, like in her early teens, and then once
her parents passed, she actually made the connection with her
(50:00):
birth family. And she was the oldest and has four
younger siblings, and so we have been very connected with
them and done a lot of collaborative projects. In fact,
we did a collaborative diabetes undone with our Cherokee family,
which is their last name is Muskrat there in Stillwell, Oklahoma,
and it was great because it was an opportunity not
(50:21):
only to help the community.
Speaker 7 (50:23):
But also help our family.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
So I think it's so exciting when folks reconnect with
native roots and I know that's the story of your mom.
I've had the privilege of meeting her, and you have
this background with a doctorate in public health. Now, a
lot of folks in the medical community, in the public
health community all know what a DrPH is. But for
those individuals who say, well doctor public health, I mean,
(50:45):
what all is that about? Can you tell us a
little bit about your background?
Speaker 14 (50:48):
Absolutely, and mine isn't just a DrPH, not that there's
any just DrPHs, but mine is specifically in priventive care.
So I got mine from La Melinda, and we did
a lot of the base science with the medical students
and the dental students, and then we also did a
lot on exercise physiology, on prevention, on helping people make
(51:09):
lifestyle changes, healthcare improvement, lifestyle improvement through that.
Speaker 7 (51:14):
Primitive care degree.
Speaker 14 (51:16):
And so it's not just targeting large populations, but also
small community populations as well.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
So one of the things I'm especially excited about, and
I'm happy on this last segment of the show to
let our listeners know as we're moving forward, we're broadening
our team. So many of the listeners may not be
aware of the fact that, in addition to being the
host of the show. I've been the executive producer for
many years. Well, I'm bringing on an associate producer and
(51:44):
just happens to have the same name as the lady
sitting across from me, doctor Joni Bakovoy. We're very excited
about you taking on that role.
Speaker 7 (51:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 14 (51:52):
I appreciate it, and I look forward to helping out
learning because I know there'll be a learning curve. But
I really look forward to also connecting that with our
American Indian Alaska Native Living magazine because both of those
have very similar populations and focuses.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
So tell us a little bit about that. So a
lot of folks know the radio show, and I know
as I travel throughout Indian country many people rave about
the magazine. They've enjoyed that for many years. So there's
a magazine with the same title as this radio show,
owned by the same native group. And what is your
role with the magazine at this point?
Speaker 14 (52:28):
So right now, it's the executive producer for that magazine,
and I've been a writer for quite a while, have
done a lot with the magazine and actually used it
in a lot of my classes that I've used for
the Native tribe. So this is an opportunity to now
expand what I get to do, and we really want
to connect with those folks who are doing really good
(52:49):
stuff with health in Native country.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
So for those of you tuning in today, if you're
a tribal health worker, if you're in a tribal council,
you're doing some innovative stuff with interventions in your community,
or if you have questions about other people that might
be doing some things that are similar, Doctor baccavoy is
now on the team. She's going to be helping us
line up shows. We're going to be talking together about
content and trying to make this connection tighter between the
(53:15):
magazine and the radio show. Correct, you've been doing some
exciting themed issues for American, Indian and Alaska Native Living magazine.
Tell us about some of the material that, well, maybe
just some key points, some practical things that our listeners
could benefit from.
Speaker 14 (53:34):
Okay, well, I'll tell you. One of our latest issues
is on choice. In fact, it's still in production, and
I loved your article on smart choices.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Thank you, Ed.
Speaker 7 (53:43):
Do you want to say a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
I'm happy to so. So Johnie's getting experienced too as
the host at so Yes there's a mnemonic, a memory
device that we've used in the public health community, health
education community for many years, and it's called smart Smart.
Depending on who you talk with or maybe a little
bit different takes on the five words that represent the
(54:06):
smart goals. We're talking about smart goals when we talk
about making changes in our lifestyle. We're saying you'll have
greater success if you articulate, if you define your goals
in a way that is smart. The S stands for specific,
so the M is measurable. Let's just pause for a minute.
(54:27):
Someone says, well, I want to exercise more. Well, that's great,
But would you say that specific and measurable? Doctor Bacovoy yump. Okay,
So give me an example. How would you make if
you had a goal to exercise more? What could be
specific and measurable?
Speaker 14 (54:40):
So for the next three weeks, okay, I'm going to
go out and walk briskly thirty minutes three times a day.
Speaker 7 (54:47):
Wow, that's three times a week.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Okay, well three times that's very impressive. But still yeah,
So what I tell people is a specific and measurable
If I can call you and I can say, have
you met your goals? Right? Yes? Yes? I've been checking
it off. I'm doing this, you know, X, Y, and Z.
Just like I specified the A, I like the word
attainable or achievable. So someone might say, well, you know,
(55:11):
I want to run a marathon every week, and well,
if all you're doing is walk in your mailbox, it's
not likely the next week you're going to run twenty
six point two miles. So we say, make sure that
it's attainable. The R is related, it's realistic. So you
might say those are similar things, and sometimes they are.
But something might actually be realistic theoretically, but it may
(55:34):
not be attainable in your in your situation. So both
of those, you know, kind of look at those nuances.
And then the last t is some people use timely
or time oriented. You mentioned that in your goal that
you're articulated you're going to do it over the course
of three weeks, so it could be you know, a
period of time. It could be a season. You know,
(55:55):
maybe a certain season you don't do well with exercise
in the way I turn Oklahoma. So you say, you know,
during the winter months, I make a special point to
go to the tribal Health Center, and I know you
get some nice tribal health centers in Oklahoma there. So
that's a smart goal and we say when a person
does that, they're more likely to have success and be
(56:16):
able to achieve that goal. So you've helped me to
share something that I'm passionate about that you're featuring in American,
Indian and Alaska Native Living magazine. But you're I know,
as a producer of a magazine, executive producer, you're always
looking for good content. Absolutely, So how does someone get
a hold of you if they say, Hey, we're doing
(56:37):
some great work in our neck of the woods in
Indian Country and I'd love to let doctor Bakovoy know
about it.
Speaker 14 (56:43):
Well, you can definitely email me because that's probably the
best way to get hold of me. And so my
email is Jony Jo and I the number four s
liken sam at me dot com.
Speaker 7 (56:54):
So it's my iPhone.
Speaker 2 (56:56):
Okay, Jony jo and I the number four s at
me dot com. Correct, Okay, Well that's pretty easy. And
how about if someone would like to be on the
radio show. I guess I should answer thatce I'm the
executive producer and you're just my associate. At that point,
the roles might get switched somewhere along the way. I
don't want to scare you, but and that's not in
(57:17):
the works, that's necessarily But if you want to reach
out to us about program content, I'm going to be
relying more on doctor Bacavoy as we go forward with
helping us design some of the shows. Where we are,
you know, on site programming, we sometimes do that, just
like we're doing here in this venue. So please feel free,
whether you've got a magazine article concept or whether you say, hey,
(57:41):
we'd love to share something on air throughout Indian country,
reach out to doctor Jony Baccavoy, j O n I
the number four s at me dot com. Jony, our
time is really just about going if you were to
give folks just a one sentence that could transform their life,
(58:02):
do you have anything that powerful that you could share
in fifteen seconds?
Speaker 14 (58:05):
So actually, what I'd like to say is we always
talk about disparities in Indian country, but we have amazing
things that are being done in Indian country.
Speaker 7 (58:14):
That we need to emulate.
Speaker 14 (58:16):
Tremendous and that's what we want you to start thinking about.
Speaker 7 (58:19):
Talk to elders, look for stories in your area. We
want to share those stories.
Speaker 14 (58:24):
So that people can see that Indian country needs to
be the standard. That we need to stop focusing on
disparities and look at the excellence.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
I love that. Thanks great to have you on the team.
Than you, and to each one of you who've joined
us for today's edition of American, Indian and Alaska Native Living.
I'm doctor David DeRose, as always wishing you the very
best of health.
Speaker 5 (58:51):
Native Voice one the Native American radio network
Welcome to American Indian and Alaska Native Living, a program
designed to educate and inspire listeners throughout Indian Country. American
Indian and Alaskan Native Living is hosted by doctor David Deroz,
a board certified specialist in both internal medicine and preventive medicine.
Doctor Deroz has a wide range of experience with native
(00:25):
health issues, and he is here today to help you
learn more about your health. Here is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to American Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor
David de Rose. Where we are recording another segment at
the Venue of ASI twenty twenty five. We're in Orlando, Florida,
and we've got another amazing guest sitting across from me
in our virtual studio here in the exhibit hall. It's
Tom Waters. Tom. It's great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Thank you, David. It's always nice to be back. It's
been a while since we've done something together, so this
is great.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
It is great. I know Elaine was waiting in the
world willing to join us, but the way we're set
up today, just one guest is my capacity. Folks know you, Tom,
they know Elane, they know that you've been working together
for years helping strengthen families. Tell us for the benefit
of some who may not have run across you, guys,
what you do.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, So we have the privilege and I do miss
my wife when she's not sitting next to me and
doing these things, But we have the privilege of working
together with marriages. Primarily, we love marriage. We love what
can happen in marriage if we cooperate, and we've been
through our own things, which we've shared some of those
(01:39):
things on your program before. But we love marriage and
have a passion that marriage can be so much more
than what we get in our ruts and business as usual,
having in so many marriages that we end up talking
coaching with, counseling with. So we love how our marriage
(02:00):
is being changed. We love falling more in love with
each other, and so we have high expectations for what
we can have in marriage and what others can have too.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Tremendous. Now, some folks when they heard marriage, they're about
to shut off the show because things have gone pretty
poorly in that domain. Maybe someone's right now in the
midst of marital conflict difficulties, maybe separation, divorce proceedings, may
be in the works, and we're going to just start
on that premise that we've got a lot of hurting
people when it comes to marriages. This is not sounding
(02:34):
like a good show. Why is it? Could be good
news what we talk about today.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
It's going to be good news because we've been in trouble.
We've gone through some very difficult things, particularly in early marriage.
But we chose not to give up on our marriage,
not to give up on each other, and we didn't
realize how amazing marriage can be. Okay, so that's good news.
(03:00):
It is for people who are in conflict right now.
We have had people in our presence at some of
our marriage retreat. Nobody else in the retreat knew it.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
You've been at our marriage I have. We enjoyed joining
you guys.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
It's a blessing. But who were prepared to sign papers
on the following Monday for divorce and those people are
living a life they've never experienced in marriage, more happy
than they've ever been, and they tore up those.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Divorce papers tremendous.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Oh it just it gets me up in the morning.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Well, just for the record, for our listeners, my wife
and I didn't show up at your marriage encounter weekend
because we had divorce proceedings underway. We've just enjoyed your
practical counsel that you've given here on American, Indian and
Alaska Native living over the years, as well as what
you've done in so many venues. And my wife had
been telling me for years, I just really want to
(04:01):
go to one of their programs daither Way, and I
forget why things aligned. Usually I always had some good
reason why I couldn't go, and I knew it was
in her heart to go, but I was really blessed
as well to be there.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Well, thank you. We're glad that you were willing to
take the time, carve out the time because we know
your lives.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Are very busy. So for those who are still scratching
their heads, Yeah, maybe they've heard of Tom and Elaine Waters.
Maybe they haven't. There's a one are these guys talking about?
What do they do? Who are they? Let's step back
talk about how someone can connect with you guys, and
then talk about right now some practical help for individuals
(04:39):
who may be struggling in a marital relationship.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, so as far as getting connected with us, they
can go on Rionline dot org. There's a place right
up front where somebody can click on that for coaching,
and they can come in for coaching. For marriage, they
can come in because they want to find a wife,
they want their sick, looking for relationship principles, they're dealing
(05:03):
with parental problems. They can click on that and fill
out a little form that gets some basic information about
what they're dealing with, and that's a place to start
coaching if somebody's needing something like that.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Okay, let me make sure I've got this right. You
guys call your organization Restoration International, correct, Yes, So the
website is the abbreviation for that r I. And then
what comes after.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
That online just ad out O N l I, n E, YEP.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Dot org, okay online dot org, RI online dot org.
And then if I go on that website, I'll find
an opportunity to YEP coaching coaching.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Okay, Yeah, it's right there. It's pretty plain and you
can click on that and it just tells you exactly
what to do.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
And you'll help people from a distance.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Yes, anywhere in the world.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Steep price tag.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
No, not compared to what most people are Okay, our
intake you want me to be specific, Go ahead, go
for it. Yeah. So our intake for a couple who
wants to do some marriage coaching is seventy five dollars
for the first session intake, which is our hour and
a half.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
After that, it's sixty dollars for any follow ups. Okay,
that's pretty inexpensive in terms of a lot of people
who call us and say, well, I was paying one
hundred and fifty bucks an hour for the guy I
was going.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
To Uh huh, No, that's reasonable, that's reasonable. Okay, many
people are not going to go to rionline dot org,
but I know you want to help them anyway. That's
why you're sitting across from Yes, help us out conflict
in a marriage. Where do you start if you're giving
people some general principles?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, So our default mode, our humanity has a default mode,
and that is if something goes wrong between you and I.
Now it's tougher in the marriage because you and I
can We may as a couple of guys will have
our own ways of coping with things, but in marriage,
the default mode is if I could just get you
to see what I'm trying to say, we would have
(07:03):
a lot better marriage. But you don't listen to me. Okay,
you can hear a little passion in there, a little
bit of what we call self me focused, me centric.
That's where we tend to go. There's a defensiveness. Something's
going wrong. It's probably your fault, okay, because I think
I'm right. But do you kind of think you're right?
Speaker 2 (07:25):
David?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Okay? I mean all of us. We wouldn't be thinking
the way we think if we didn't think we were right.
And so often when conflict happens, what I'm interested in
is what I want you to listen to. What you're
interested in is could you please hear my heart? Okay?
(07:47):
And when that's not happening, we get into defensiveness, we
get into real conflict, and then people go into their
corners and unfortunately they don't come out except maybe this
see if somebody on the other side has changed. Nope,
no change, going back into my corner, or occasionally go
(08:08):
out to throw a punch. I don't know why I
had this thought. For many years, I've seen two boxers
in or boxing ring and they come out to throw
a punch or they're waiting to see you know, what
their opportunity is. So for us. One of the things
that really revolutionized our marriage. And this is gonna sound
like not rocket science, but very simple. Listen to understand.
(08:35):
Don't just listen to either interrupt or tell what you
want to know. Okay, listen to understand.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So many times, like you said, it seems like we
come to a discussion with our own agendas and you're saying,
just pause, try to really hear the other person. Listen
to understand. Why has that changed the equation?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Because if my desire. When I started to understand this,
which is why I love to talk about this kind
of stuff, When I started getting this in my own
head and heart, what a difference it made in reducing
our conflict and resolving our conflict. Okay, two good hours
(09:23):
reduce had less of it because I listened better. Works
better when both of us listen better. But I started it.
I confess to my wife, you know I've been cutting
you off. I've been rude and interrupted. I've said I
know what you're gonna say. You don't even have to
(09:43):
finish your sentence. Those kind of things.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's pretty bad. Okay.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
That happens more in marriage than it does between a
couple of guys. Sitting around joying time. So when I
began to realize that if I would listen to my wife,
it was such a blessing to her that she said
to me, if I knew that you actually understood me
(10:09):
and were really hearing me, it wouldn't matter nearly as
much if you didn't agree with me. But when I
don't think you're listening, and when I don't think you
hear me, then it grieves me because I think maybe
we wouldn't have a disagreement if you really heard my heart.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Now you've got my mind going in a lot of directions.
We walked into this wanting to talk about marriages that
we're struggling, and that's clearly the focus of what we're
dealing with. But I know there's folks representing all kinds
of tribal entities, private sector organizations, public entities. It may
(10:55):
not be tribal, and I think as we're talking, people
might be saying if there's conflict either in the workplace
or in the homeowners association or in the tribal council
that although in Indian country, I think there's a much
healthier respect for listening in the words of other people
(11:16):
than maybe some other cultural backgrounds. Still, it sounds like
you're speaking about some principles that don't only have a
bearing on marriages. Am I hearing you correctly?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Absolutely, it just gets intense in marriage because what happens
often behind closed doors, and nobody's proud of this, I hope,
But we do it. We can get pretty into our
way of thinking when it's husband and wife. It's not
quite as easy to do that. If you and I
are sitting across and negotiating a business transaction, we're not
(11:50):
necessarily going to get is into self or me centric
focus in that arrangement. We can tone it down. But
marriage where it often happens raw and butt, he's sad sometimes.
Oh yeah, it's all. It's good for friendships, it's good
for business, it's good for any relationship.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
But I hear what you're saying. The expectation and marriage
is this is supposed to be good for me. It's
supposed to make me feel good, you know. Marriage is
supposed to be a blessing. Yes, and so my needs
are supposed to be met. And if that's how I
go into the dialogue with a focus, as you said,
me centric, yes, we're setting ourselves up for failure.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Huh, yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
Okay, So folks are listening to us and they're getting
the message. We need to listen to understand where do
things go from there.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
So once we do that and everything that I'm sharing
with you right now, just here open. I don't want
to say off the cuff because I have a passion
for this.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
No, I know this is not the first time you're
talking about this every.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Time we are even one side of the relationship. Okay,
So if we're a nerriage, even if it's just me,
because I'm commitment to God. Okay, So I'm a Christian
as you know, and prayer is a part of my life.
I made a commitment to God, and I said, I'm
going to see what I can do to make a difference.
(13:12):
I can't really change my wife, I can't really change you,
but I can even get upset about it, or I
can see if I can make a difference. I make
a difference without compromising what I believe or a principle
that's involved. But I'm going to see if I can
make a difference by listening to you better. Okay, Okay,
(13:34):
Instead of assuming that you just need to listen to
me better. Okay. That's the me centric focus, and that
gets nowhere. Whether it's marriage or anything business, friendship, it
gets nowhere.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Okay. So we're trying to get out of these blinders
that keep us focused on our own needs, expressing ourselves,
expecting that the other person is the one who really
has the obligation of hearing me. We're really taking an
interest in the other person. Tom. We got to build
on this foundation because once issues become apparent, there can
(14:09):
be real problems.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Right absolutely, they need to be resolved.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Okay, So we want to look at things we can
do to resolve problems, but we can't do it in
this segment. We do have to step away. Just briefly.
I'm doctor David Deurose my guest Tom Waters. He's the
president and co founder of an organization called Restoration International.
If you're just joining us, the website is our I
for Restoration International online dot org. We're talking about things
(14:36):
that can help you if you're in a difficult place
with your marriage, and dare I say it, if you're
in a great place, can help strengthen your marriage. Stay tuned,
Tom is staying bye. I am two. We'll be right
back after.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
This Today's broadcast has been pre recorded. However, if you
have questions about today's show or would like further information,
please reach out to us on the web at aia
n L dot org that stands for American Indian Alaska
(15:08):
Native Living Again aia n L dot org, or you
can call us at one eight hundred seven seventy five HOPE.
That's one eight hundred seven seventy five four six seventy three.
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
We are strong, we are resilient, and we will get
through this together. But these are stressful times and it's
important to also practice good self care. It's normal to
feel overwhelmed, anxious, or afraid, but there is hope. Reach
out to someone, connect with your friends, stay in touch
with your community, and know that you are not alone.
(15:46):
Learn more at We Arebroadcasters dot com slash HOPE furnished
by the National Association of Broadcasters and this station.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
When Jim died, I wondered if I would be able
to keep the phone. Then I hear about the USDA's
Loan Program for socially disadvantaged Farmers and Ranters. Is for
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Once I was approved, the USDA's Farm Service Agency helped
me get the credit I needed. Now I don't have
to sell and I can pass the farm down to
my kids the way Jim's dad passed it down to him.
(16:17):
I know he'd like that.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Contact your local USDA Service Center or visit www.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Dot FSA dot USDA dot gov.
Speaker 6 (16:26):
Social Security is with you through life's journey from birth
to retirement. As your life changes year to.
Speaker 7 (16:32):
Year, so do your needs.
Speaker 6 (16:34):
For over eighty years, social Security has helped to meet
your needs and is committed to improving access to the
services that make a difference in your life. Today, you
can verify your earnings, estimate your future benefits, apply for retirement,
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Security dot gov.
Speaker 8 (17:20):
Produced a US taxpayer expense.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
You're listening to doctor David Deurouz on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five. Hope, that's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Welcome back to American, Indian and Alaska Native Living on
Doctor David Deurose. Tom Waters is across from me in
the live exhibit venue of ASI twenty twenty five, being
held in the summer of twenty twenty five in Orlando, Florida. Tom,
we're speaking about strengthening marriages, especially when people come to
areas where they are challenged. You're saying a key is
(18:11):
to listen, to actually hear the other person, listen for understanding. Yes,
help us build on that concept.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, that's revolutionary. Actually it was for our marriage. It
was for me as a man. You know, we men
and can be Number one, clueless. I can own that
because I have been clueless in my past, especially in marriage,
and I'm not clueless anymore. But a lot of us
can be clueless and walk right over the top of
(18:41):
our spouse in our communication. When we listen to understand,
then we are more prepared truly to understand our spouse
and to be ready to take ownership for some of
the things that we've done to bring conflict to the table.
Just pointing to you or pointing to my spouse, I'm
ready to say, Okay, this isn't really all your faults.
(19:04):
I'm ready to take some ownership here. When that happens,
that's revolutionary to a relationship. Okay, if it's marriage, and
I'm speaking of it, and you know our marriage, my
wife and I. It was amazing the difference it made
when I began to lead the way in that because
I was the one talking over her, I was the
one interrupting her. I was the one saying, I know
(19:26):
what you're gonna say. You don't even have to say
another word. I get it. I didn't get it, okay,
because I wasn't listening. So once I understood what she
was saying, I was prepared to take ownership for some
of the things that were breaking down our communication. Okay,
that's important.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So when there's conflict, even if someone is willing to
admit some responsibility, I think most people, it seems, at
least in my experience, they go into it well with
at least the other person is mostly at fault. But
what I hear you saying, is even if and tell
me if I'm missing you totally, Even if I can
(20:03):
admit I'm only one percent of fault, if there's something
that I can acknowledge where I'm part of the problem,
this could be a key part of the solution or
am I missing So it's huge, Okay.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
It's huge, especially if in my case, I happened to
be the one that was doing most of the poor
listening and poor communication. For me to take some percentage
of ownership was like we're breaking open into a new
place here. Okay, you have to understand in this setting,
my wife said I was the best male communicator she
(20:35):
had ever had in her life prior to marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Okay, so prior to marriage. So this had already primed
you to think you couldn't have any deficiencies in this area.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
Yes, I was pretty good.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
And so I had to go through all kinds of
things that many men have to go through, and that
is quieting down ego pride, I'm right, my way of
the high weigh all these kinds of things.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
And so when my wife in the first eighteen months
of our marriage, we really bumped into some hard things
communication wise, and this guy who was the great communicator
was not a great communicator anymore. I was a self focused,
ncentric guy, had no idea it was going to come
out like that. But when I started taking some ownership,
it gave her new hope. Okay, me taking responsibility with
(21:26):
the contrast of what had happened made a huge difference
my wife. He immediately wanted to take more responsibility on
her side. Oh, I've been more critical of you. I've
been picking at you. It's like, wow, I didn't She's
just saying that to me. So I opened up. She
opened up, and then we were able to start processing.
(21:49):
This is a big key that most marriages never get to. Wow,
processing how to make the difference, how to resolve the issues.
There's nothing in my life and I have not been
able to resolve in the last I mean, we've been
married forty five years now. Okay, we have an amazing marriage,
(22:09):
by the grace of God. We give God credit for that.
But we've cooperated in amazing ways and there is nothing today.
And I'm thankful to be able to say this doesn't
mean it won't be something tomorrow. It'll be tough, but
we have been able to realize such success in our
communication and process everything that's gotten thrown in our path
(22:32):
in our marriage in such a practical and understanding way
that we just continue to grow in our communication and
we get excited about this, and we want other marriages
to experience us.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
You've got to tell us some stories, because I know
folks were speaking theoretically. I know you're speaking from your
own experience, but tell us maybe about some couples that
you've worked with and maybe specifically what the issues might
have been. I think my listeners are hearing this challenge
but illustrated for us a little bit more.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Yeah, So let me first say that processing is an
important but missing element. Okay, So being able to process
actually break down what is taking place, what is happening
to our communication? Why are we not seeing eye to
eye in our finances? Fortunately that that's never been a
(23:24):
problem for us in our marriage, but it is in
many for sure. For sure, and so I can give
you lots of examples. Okay, I can give you examples
of marriages where the guy is going to run the
finances and he makes it very clear shortly after marriage
(23:45):
that the way the finances operate in this home are
controlled and governed by me, and as long as you
stay on the program, will do fine financially. Now, maybe
that works, but we've dealt with couples where it does
not work very long because the control that that guy
wants to have on the finance is when he says it,
(24:06):
that strongly ends up being controlled he wants to have
on his wife in other areas of life. Okay, We've
seen people that have been so broken in the area
of finance, okay, that the husband is hiding what he's
doing while he's telling his wife, you need to follow
(24:26):
my program for how we manage our finances, and he's
hiding huge sums of money that he's spending on craziness. Okay.
So anyway, there's a racial in proportion to anything in
conflict that we have found that if somebody is hyper
sensitive to hyper control another person for the sake of
(24:50):
what sounds good, they're doing something that's very bad on
the other end of the relationship.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
So this is interesting. So what I hear you saying
is this should be a red flag absolutely the other party.
And even if in the scenario you mentioned, if a
woman may want to defer to her husband's judgment financially.
But often in these situations, if things are not going well,
the person is thinking, the wife is thinking, well, you know,
(25:17):
I think we could be doing something differently, or maybe
we should be doing X, Y or Z differently. And
yet that's not on the table to discuss.
Speaker 3 (25:25):
That's right, because really what's behind it is that what's
on the table is his dishonesty, lack of integrity, and
he's been unwilling to change his In this case with
this man, he was unwilling to be clean and honest
about his finances when he got into marriage, thought he
could hide it, trying to manage the downside of his
(25:46):
finances and is crazy spending. By controlling his wife's spending,
she couldn't spend a dime. Maybe a little exaggerate, Okay,
outside of his he had to run everything through him,
and it caught up to him because he was doing
stuff that she knew nothing about and got exposed in
ways he never thought would happen. So this kind of
(26:09):
control is very damaging.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Okay, So let's talk about I'm assuming, because we're telling
this story that these folks got some help or yes,
And so where does the breakthrough happen in something like this,
So the.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Breakthrough happens now circle back around to take ownership for
what he's done, because there's forgiveness here, at least from
where I look at life. We can see somebody who
truly is sorry if they are, and we can truly
forgive them. But that's not enough. There needs to be reconciliation.
(26:44):
There needs to be change that happens, and that's where
the change in the communication needs to take place, the
processing how are we going to do life differently? And
we were able to help step these people through how
they're going to make the changes as practically and as
you know, just fundamentally as they were willing to talk
(27:07):
about it, and they ended up in a place where
they had never experienced the love in their marriage, the
trust in their marriage ever before, in the years prior
to this, even before she found out what he was
doing behind the scenes, because he was willing to break
out of it, he was willing to come clean, and
then they were willing to process change together. They came
(27:30):
into that processing of change as two people side by
side who were equals in the marriage in terms of
going forward from here as a team, rather than him
covertly running and controlling everything while doing opposite of what
he was trying to tell her she had to do.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
So I hear A big part of resolution when it
comes to conflict and relationships has to do with really
truly being open listening, yeah, and then being genuine and
what you're sharing. You're really having that open level of communication.
We call it authentic authentic.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
Okay, okay, because today, and you know this is Wallace
I do today, you can be whoever you want to
be on social media. You can be one person at
your work, another person at your church, another person on
social media. And if you're not authentic, you can't be
(28:33):
anybody else in your marriage. It's impossible.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Okay, fair enough, We got to talk some more. Can
you stay by for one more segment with you?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Okay, We've got Tom Waters. We want to give you
some more practical pointers to help you in your relationships.
I'm doctor David DeRose the show American Indian and Alaska
Native Living. We'll be back with the second half of
the program right after this.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
American Indian and Alaska Native Living will continue in a moment.
If you have questions or comments about today's pre recorded broadcast.
Please contact us on the web at AIA n L
dot org or call one eight hundred seven seven five hope.
That's one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy
(29:23):
three a message from the National Police Association. It used
to be that any able bodied person would offer to
assist a police officer in danger. Now passers by are
more likely to take a video. There's a better use
for your phone. When an officer's in trouble. Call nine
to one one. Tell the operator where you are and
what you see. Then start your video to provide evidence later.
(29:47):
To learn more about how you can assist law enforcement,
visit Nationalpolice dot org. That's Nationalpolice dot Org.
Speaker 9 (29:56):
Unlike other health concerns, mental illness is not always easy
to see. Depression won't show up on an eye chart,
and you can't measure it on your bathroom scale. Sorting
out a mental health concern is not something to attempt
on your own. You won't find a bipolar disorder by
looking at a thermometer. Like many other health conditions, help
(30:19):
from mental illness takes professional diagnosis and treatment. Anxiety won't
just go away under a stick on bandage, so the
sooner you seek treatment, the better. If you or a
loved one has a mental health concern, don't go it alone.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Find out what to do.
Speaker 9 (30:37):
For twenty four hour free and confidential information and treatment referral.
Call one eight hundred and sixty six y two help.
Learn more at SAMSEID dot gov slash support. That's sam
HSA dot gov slash support.
Speaker 10 (30:55):
Using math taught me everything about freedom, only not I
you think it taught me how easy it is to
lose your freedom. If you think meth is taking control
of you, ask for help. You have the power to
be truly free. I know I'm Yon and I'm free
from meth.
Speaker 8 (31:13):
If you or someone you know is struggling with meth,
call one eight hundred sixty six two help for twenty
four hour free and confidential treatment referral. Learn more at
SAMHSA dot gov slash meth.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
You're listening to doctor David Deurouz on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Welcome back to the second half of Today's edition of American,
Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor David Deurouz, Tom Waters,
president of Restoration International, sitting across from me and Tom.
If we don't get a chance at the end of
this segment to give out your website, please do that
one more time.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Ari online dot org, Ari online dot org.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Okay, So all folks have to remember is Restoration International.
If that's too much of a mouthful, think of the
state of Rhode Island. Are online dot org and that
will bring them right to your website. They can get
tappingto educational resources there.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
Everything's lots of resources there. Opportunities for coaching are there,
Just a lot.
Speaker 2 (32:36):
Of resources tremendous. Bring us back to this challenge that
so many relationships face. We're learning that if we want
to have harmony restored, we've got to listen to each other.
We've got to be willing to take responsibility. We have
to be authentic. We can't be hiding things when we're
saying we're communicating. There's got to be still more than
(32:56):
that though, right.
Speaker 3 (32:57):
Yes, and that's why I use the word processing. I've
mentioned it a couple times. This is something that doesn't
happen very well in most marriages. It actually happens better
in business relationships than it does many marriages. This was
one of the turning points again for us, not just
listening to understand, but then once we understood each other,
(33:20):
is how do we go forward from here?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (33:23):
So I'm using my own example here because we were
in what we call we didn't call this at the time,
but what we've learned to call a cycle of malfunction. Well, yeah,
every marriage has one. Okay, So every marriage has a
cycle of malfunction that can be turned around if we
(33:45):
learned to process our malfunctions.
Speaker 2 (33:49):
Okay, I'm hearing the word process and it might conjure
certain things up into my mind, but explain what that
looks like.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
So being able to sit down together, not in the cycle,
but because we've identified the cycle. Okay, when we could
identify that cycle of malfunction, and I say, every marriage
has it, Every marriage that we've ever talked with has
their cycle. Some are you know, they go three months
(34:19):
with broken communication. Some it's three days, some it's an hour,
some it's by the end of the day they're fixed.
But everybody has a cycle. When your wife okay, and
you may not want to say you have one, or
maybe haven't thought about it. But every couple has a
cycle that they get involved in where the wife knows
(34:39):
what the husband's going to do next, and the husband
has a pretty good idea of how the wife's going
to respond. And if they stay in that, it's a
rinse and repeat. They just keep repeating it and it
doesn't ever, it doesn't get better, it gets worse. But
when we're ready to break that cycle, we sit down
together because we've listened, now, we've understood each other. We've
been willing to take some ownership, and now we're going
(35:02):
to talk about what I can do and what you
can do as my spouse with breaking that cycle. What
am I willing to do? I talk about what I
see as the triggers for that cycle. What I see
is the issues that come up, and then my wife
opens up and shares what she sees. So it's not
(35:22):
a blame game. It's now us taking ownership and yeah,
this is what I do in our cycle, this is
how I react. You know, my wife's the conflict of void.
So one of the things in our cycle was if
I wanted to press in there and get to the
finish line on this. Sometimes it was too intense for
her and she'd say, I just need a break. This
(35:43):
is getting too I just the conflict, the strain, the
stress is too much.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
So the problem with this, though, is if someone says
I need a break, that's often perceived as the person
doesn't want to process the issues exactly. It could be
a legitimate concern, right, Yes, there could be a need
for some space. How do you deal with that?
Speaker 3 (36:02):
Yes? And so for my wife, that's why I'm using
our own example. I came to recognize that, you know,
if she is a conflict avoid she'd rather look for
a peaceful way to solve it. It doesn't always seem
to work that way. So I said, Okay, I understand
I'm too intense. Okay, you need a break. But I said,
(36:23):
in the past, when I'm giving that opportunity and try
to be sensitive to that, you've never come back. You
just want it to go away. It can't go away,
or it's going to repeat itself. And this is what
happens in every marriage. It's going to repeat itself. It's
going to show up in another week, another month, whatever,
six months. So she agreed with me that I will
(36:46):
come back, Okay, I will not avoid it indefinitely. And
so you know, live example here. So I said to
her a couple of weeks ago, I said, so I
understand you want a little break on this, and you
know we will talk about it later. So I said,
just remember that you will come back to me and
(37:07):
you won't forget about it. She said absolutely. So we
don't have that issue anymore because number one, we've learned
how to process conflict. But this is a part of it. Okay,
So we come back and we're willing to look for
a solution, not look for an excuse. We're willing to
talk about the nuts and bolts of why it happens.
(37:27):
If it's money, we're willing to talk about where the
money breaks down. Okay, that hasn't been an issue for us.
But whatever it is, as a couple, we're willing to
talk about it. We're willing to take ownership for what
we'll do to make the difference, and then we're willing
to make that difference. And for us, again, that involves prayer. Okay,
(37:51):
that involves a commitment to each other. We pray about
it together and then we check in and we talk
about the progress we're making, or with talk about what's
not working. This rarely happens in most marriages. They just
get over it, however long it takes, and then it
comes up again and they go through the same cycle.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
So basically, what I hear you saying is there's gonna
be points in every relationship where there's tension, where there's difficulties,
where there's differences of opinion, and if those areas are
not addressed, they're only going to resurface. Right, Yeah, So
it's critical that even though we may want to be
in harmony, the way to have harmony is not necessarily
(38:36):
just to not discuss the areas of conflict. In fact,
that's part of the problem.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Part of the problem. It's just going to recur. It's
not going to go away. We have to resolve it.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
Okay, So help us here now, because I think one
of the challenges is when we go into any kind
of conflict, there's going to be a tendency still. Even
if you feel you're listening, each party is likely to
feel that they have an angle on how to solve
that issue. Absolutely, and it may be well mutually exclusive. Right,
(39:11):
one person feels we got to do this the other
person feels there is a different solution. What do you
do when it seems like you are listening, you're hearing
that there's a problem, you want to resolve it, but
you're just in different corners of the issue.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Yes, so that's a very good question, because it does happen, okay,
And that's okay, it's honest and sincere. This is where
for us the Bible, the Word of God and those
principles of prayer. If we look at the principles, and
you can do this without the Bible. I mean, there
are principles of morality, there are principles for business, and
(39:43):
there are principles of conflict resolution that you know, I
don't want to set aside God, but there are principles.
And if we see things differently, we can talk about
parenting because a lot of people that we deal with
and we had our own issues in parenting. We have
our way of parenting because we learned it from our parents.
Speaker 2 (40:04):
Whatever.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
So Eleaene and I this was one of the areas
that we dealt with and we said, okay, and for us,
we're going for biblical principle. But let's just say, for example,
if you ask your child to do something. Okay, we
had a principle in our home that if we ask
one of our children to do something, we need to
(40:27):
say what we mean and mean what we say. If
we're not going to follow through, don't say it, because
it's worse to say it and not follow through than
to say nothing at all. Until we have the courage
or the continuity or the togetherness as parents, we're not
going to call it out unless we're ready to follow
(40:48):
it through. Okay. So it's a simple example of I
expect my child to obey what I asked them to do.
If they don't, there's going to be consequences. Okay, I'm
just using that as.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
An example, right, right, But we both came to that
conclusion of that's what your expectation was going to be.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
That's exactly right. But that didn't happen without going through
some of this processing.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Okay. So what I love about what you're saying is
ultimately there's got to be some kind of authority outside
the couple. Yes, you're mentioning that. For you as a Christian,
it's the Bible. Yes. For a listener that may be
an atheist or maybe following traditional tribal practices. They might
not resonate with the Bible. But what you're saying is
(41:33):
we'll identify, yep, what principles the two of you are
going to say this is going to guide us either
this Warren Buffett's you know, one hundred best financial principles
or you know when it comes to the am I
falling along with where we're going.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
Yeah, you're gonna find something you can find harmony and
agreement in, because if you don't, you flounder and you
rinse and repeat in the failures. But you finally come
to something you say, we can agree on this. We're
going to team up on this, We're going to be
united on this, and we're going to tell our children
this is what we expect.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Now Here's I think the real challenge is you might
say there's certain things that we can come to an
agreement on. But you mentioned this example of spending, yes,
and you talked about a couple where one member of
the marital relationship, the guy in the case that you gave,
was hiding expenses. Yes. I think one of the sensitive
issues is can or should there be some kind of
(42:27):
a budget, if possible, where both the husband and wife
can have some discretionary very good spending where the other
person might say you're wasting money and things are tight,
but do you see what I'm asking?
Speaker 3 (42:40):
Absolutely, And when we're dealing with a situation in a couple,
we've had the privilege it's been kind of fun actually
to be able to actually go into someone's home and
they've asked us to help them do a budget. Okay,
And we always talk about discretionary spending, why it's important,
why it's necessary for autonomy, tode, and it can still
(43:01):
be harmonious. We need to do that in any of
the areas that we're going to deal with. What we
agree on, we agree on, but we don't have to
nitpick this to the point that I can't spend five
bucks on something that's you know, goes along with my hobbies,
or my wife can't go out and do something and
you know that's fun for her. So yeah, that's very
(43:22):
important whatever category we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
So basically, try to find out what are the non negotiables,
what are you going to work on together, and where
can you be different, where can you still have some
different perspectives, whether it's financially or how you deal with
the kids or a host of other things.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
Right, Yeah, there has to be some non negotiables. If
our kids can't talk back to us disrespectfully, we need
to both agree with that. That's a non negotiable. If
the kids can talk back to mom but they can't
talk back to dad, that creates a division in everybody
in the family.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
Yeah, that's a non nego Tom.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
I know you guys have spent your life doing this,
and there's so much we could talk about. Our time
has just about slipped away. But what I love about
the work that you do is you keep the door open.
You've got a website that's got am I right, both materials, videos,
We can answer this all through there. Yes, and because
(44:21):
a lot of folks probably are not going to just
reach out for marital counseling, but once they see what
you're putting out there, they may be inclined to reach out.
And what kind of response time is there? Have you
got like a waiting list of two years or how
does that work?
Speaker 3 (44:35):
No, I mean our response time is pretty quick. The
only thing that interferes with response time is that we
do have a busy travel schedule. We do seminars all
over the world, so that's the only thing. We'll get
back to people normally within a week to ten days
for a scheduled appointment.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Wonderful, Tom, I know a lot's going on here. You've
got your own booth. Thank you for pulling away.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Oh it's been great. I always like to get together
with you on be able to share.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
Definitely mutual. We're gonna step away from my dialogue with Tom.
I've got a native health professional who's waiting in the
wings to join us for our final segment. You're not
gonna want to miss doctor Joni Bakavoy and some exciting
things happening with American, Indian and Alaska Native living. That's
all coming up in our final segment right after this.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Today's broadcast has been pre recorded. However, if you have
questions about today's show or would like further information, please
call one eight hundred seven to seven to five hope.
That's one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 11 (45:41):
If a natural disaster comes knocking, how prepared is your family?
You can't just close the door on earthquakes, floods, or
hurricanes and hope they go away. That's why it's important
to make a plan. Now Ready dot gov slash plan
has the tools and tips you need to prepare your
family for an emergency sestor shows up at your doorstep,
(46:02):
You'll be ready. Visit ready dot gov slash plan and
make a plan today. Brought to you by FEMA and
the AD Council.
Speaker 8 (46:10):
I'm just texting him that I'm just posting a story,
just changing the song.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
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Speaker 10 (46:18):
Sending a text takes your eyes off the road for
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Any distracted driving just isn't worth it.
Speaker 7 (46:30):
Visit stop texts, Stop rex dot org. A message brought
to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Project
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Speaker 13 (46:40):
What is a number story?
Speaker 6 (46:42):
My number story started with fear and lack of support,
and it has led me to be there for others.
Speaker 13 (46:47):
A number story begins in our childhood with aces adverse
childhood experiences.
Speaker 12 (46:53):
My number story begins with the separation from my father
and the emotional abandonment from my mother and leads to
me being a role model to not only myself, well,
but those around me by becoming a person that wasn't
there for me.
Speaker 13 (47:03):
Aces are so common two thirds of us have one.
Speaker 5 (47:06):
My number story begins with drug abuse and homelessness and
leads to realizing that I can live life by my
own standards.
Speaker 13 (47:13):
A study found the more aces, the more likely we
may experience a host of serious health effects, physical and mental.
But that doesn't need to be the case. Your race
number is simply an entry point to your own story.
Where it leads is up to you.
Speaker 14 (47:28):
My number story begins with years of emotional abuse and
leads to peace, clarity, and security and my self worth.
Speaker 13 (47:34):
Take control of where your number story leads at numberstory
dot org.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
You're listening to doctor David Derouse on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seven five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor DeRose.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Welcome back for our final segment of today's edition of
American Indian and Alaska Native Living. Across from me as
someone who's not a stranger. If you're a regular listener
to our show, we've had the privilege of having doctor
Joni Baccavoy on the program multiple times in the past,
and Joni, I'm so glad we were able to pull
you away from all the business to have you join
us today.
Speaker 7 (48:21):
Thank you, doctor Deroz. Great to be.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
Here, Jony, you are an amazing lady. You've done all
kinds of things. Tell us first of all a little
bit about your background and why you're so passionate about
health in Indian country.
Speaker 14 (48:34):
Well, health has always been really important to me. I
grew up in actually as a missionary kid, grew up
in Africa and then Singapore. My dad was a surgeon,
and I was always passionate about trying to.
Speaker 7 (48:45):
Help people be healthier. That was his goal, and.
Speaker 14 (48:49):
So right from early years I was involved in a
lot of things that he was doing because although he
was a surgeon, he was still very passionate about stop smoking,
weight loss, all that other stuff, and so that always
inspired me. And then through my career, I started as
a nurse, got my master's in public health doctor and
public health did some research really focused on things that
(49:09):
can make people healthier, and absolutely every job I've been
part of, I've had that opportunity to help people get healthier,
either from.
Speaker 7 (49:19):
The professional like the employees, or from the patient perspective.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
I love your perspective, and you have deep roots in
Indian country. I have a lot of stories of people
with are actually enrolled tribal members that have spent time
as a missionary in Africa.
Speaker 7 (49:34):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Tell us a little bit about that part of the story.
Speaker 7 (49:36):
Well, so it's really interesting.
Speaker 14 (49:38):
My mother was adopted when she was first born, was
adopted out, and then her mom was actually Cherokee, had
Cherokee roots, and her dad had osage and she did
learn a little bit about her birth family when she
was young, like in her early teens, and then once
her parents passed, she actually made the connection with her
(50:00):
birth family. And she was the oldest and has four
younger siblings, and so we have been very connected with
them and done a lot of collaborative projects. In fact,
we did a collaborative diabetes undone with our Cherokee family,
which is their last name is Muskrat there in Stillwell, Oklahoma,
and it was great because it was an opportunity not
(50:21):
only to help the community.
Speaker 7 (50:23):
But also help our family.
Speaker 2 (50:25):
So I think it's so exciting when folks reconnect with
native roots and I know that's the story of your mom.
I've had the privilege of meeting her, and you have
this background with a doctorate in public health. Now, a
lot of folks in the medical community, in the public
health community all know what a DrPH is. But for
those individuals who say, well doctor public health, I mean,
(50:45):
what all is that about? Can you tell us a
little bit about your background?
Speaker 14 (50:48):
Absolutely, and mine isn't just a DrPH, not that there's
any just DrPHs, but mine is specifically in priventive care.
So I got mine from La Melinda, and we did
a lot of the base science with the medical students
and the dental students, and then we also did a
lot on exercise physiology, on prevention, on helping people make
(51:09):
lifestyle changes, healthcare improvement, lifestyle improvement through that.
Speaker 7 (51:14):
Primitive care degree.
Speaker 14 (51:16):
And so it's not just targeting large populations, but also
small community populations as well.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
So one of the things I'm especially excited about, and
I'm happy on this last segment of the show to
let our listeners know as we're moving forward, we're broadening
our team. So many of the listeners may not be
aware of the fact that, in addition to being the
host of the show. I've been the executive producer for
many years. Well, I'm bringing on an associate producer and
(51:44):
just happens to have the same name as the lady
sitting across from me, doctor Joni Bakovoy. We're very excited
about you taking on that role.
Speaker 7 (51:52):
Thank you.
Speaker 14 (51:52):
I appreciate it, and I look forward to helping out
learning because I know there'll be a learning curve. But
I really look forward to also connecting that with our
American Indian Alaska Native Living magazine because both of those
have very similar populations and focuses.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
So tell us a little bit about that. So a
lot of folks know the radio show, and I know
as I travel throughout Indian country many people rave about
the magazine. They've enjoyed that for many years. So there's
a magazine with the same title as this radio show,
owned by the same native group. And what is your
role with the magazine at this point?
Speaker 14 (52:28):
So right now, it's the executive producer for that magazine,
and I've been a writer for quite a while, have
done a lot with the magazine and actually used it
in a lot of my classes that I've used for
the Native tribe. So this is an opportunity to now
expand what I get to do, and we really want
to connect with those folks who are doing really good
(52:49):
stuff with health in Native country.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
So for those of you tuning in today, if you're
a tribal health worker, if you're in a tribal council,
you're doing some innovative stuff with interventions in your community,
or if you have questions about other people that might
be doing some things that are similar, Doctor baccavoy is
now on the team. She's going to be helping us
line up shows. We're going to be talking together about
content and trying to make this connection tighter between the
(53:15):
magazine and the radio show. Correct, you've been doing some
exciting themed issues for American, Indian and Alaska Native Living magazine.
Tell us about some of the material that, well, maybe
just some key points, some practical things that our listeners
could benefit from.
Speaker 14 (53:34):
Okay, well, I'll tell you. One of our latest issues
is on choice. In fact, it's still in production, and
I loved your article on smart choices.
Speaker 2 (53:42):
Thank you, Ed.
Speaker 7 (53:43):
Do you want to say a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
I'm happy to so. So Johnie's getting experienced too as
the host at so Yes there's a mnemonic, a memory
device that we've used in the public health community, health
education community for many years, and it's called smart Smart.
Depending on who you talk with or maybe a little
bit different takes on the five words that represent the
(54:06):
smart goals. We're talking about smart goals when we talk
about making changes in our lifestyle. We're saying you'll have
greater success if you articulate, if you define your goals
in a way that is smart. The S stands for specific,
so the M is measurable. Let's just pause for a minute.
(54:27):
Someone says, well, I want to exercise more. Well, that's great,
But would you say that specific and measurable? Doctor Bacovoy yump. Okay,
So give me an example. How would you make if
you had a goal to exercise more? What could be
specific and measurable?
Speaker 14 (54:40):
So for the next three weeks, okay, I'm going to
go out and walk briskly thirty minutes three times a day.
Speaker 7 (54:47):
Wow, that's three times a week.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Okay, well three times that's very impressive. But still yeah,
So what I tell people is a specific and measurable
If I can call you and I can say, have
you met your goals? Right? Yes? Yes? I've been checking
it off. I'm doing this, you know, X, Y, and Z.
Just like I specified the A, I like the word
attainable or achievable. So someone might say, well, you know,
(55:11):
I want to run a marathon every week, and well,
if all you're doing is walk in your mailbox, it's
not likely the next week you're going to run twenty
six point two miles. So we say, make sure that
it's attainable. The R is related, it's realistic. So you
might say those are similar things, and sometimes they are.
But something might actually be realistic theoretically, but it may
(55:34):
not be attainable in your in your situation. So both
of those, you know, kind of look at those nuances.
And then the last t is some people use timely
or time oriented. You mentioned that in your goal that
you're articulated you're going to do it over the course
of three weeks, so it could be you know, a
period of time. It could be a season. You know,
(55:55):
maybe a certain season you don't do well with exercise
in the way I turn Oklahoma. So you say, you know,
during the winter months, I make a special point to
go to the tribal Health Center, and I know you
get some nice tribal health centers in Oklahoma there. So
that's a smart goal and we say when a person
does that, they're more likely to have success and be
(56:16):
able to achieve that goal. So you've helped me to
share something that I'm passionate about that you're featuring in American,
Indian and Alaska Native Living magazine. But you're I know,
as a producer of a magazine, executive producer, you're always
looking for good content. Absolutely, So how does someone get
a hold of you if they say, Hey, we're doing
(56:37):
some great work in our neck of the woods in
Indian Country and I'd love to let doctor Bakovoy know
about it.
Speaker 14 (56:43):
Well, you can definitely email me because that's probably the
best way to get hold of me. And so my
email is Jony Jo and I the number four s
liken sam at me dot com.
Speaker 7 (56:54):
So it's my iPhone.
Speaker 2 (56:56):
Okay, Jony jo and I the number four s at
me dot com. Correct, Okay, Well that's pretty easy. And
how about if someone would like to be on the
radio show. I guess I should answer thatce I'm the
executive producer and you're just my associate. At that point,
the roles might get switched somewhere along the way. I
don't want to scare you, but and that's not in
(57:17):
the works, that's necessarily But if you want to reach
out to us about program content, I'm going to be
relying more on doctor Bacavoy as we go forward with
helping us design some of the shows. Where we are,
you know, on site programming, we sometimes do that, just
like we're doing here in this venue. So please feel free,
whether you've got a magazine article concept or whether you say, hey,
(57:41):
we'd love to share something on air throughout Indian country,
reach out to doctor Jony Baccavoy, j O n I
the number four s at me dot com. Jony, our
time is really just about going if you were to
give folks just a one sentence that could transform their life,
(58:02):
do you have anything that powerful that you could share
in fifteen seconds?
Speaker 14 (58:05):
So actually, what I'd like to say is we always
talk about disparities in Indian country, but we have amazing
things that are being done in Indian country.
Speaker 7 (58:14):
That we need to emulate.
Speaker 14 (58:16):
Tremendous and that's what we want you to start thinking about.
Speaker 7 (58:19):
Talk to elders, look for stories in your area. We
want to share those stories.
Speaker 14 (58:24):
So that people can see that Indian country needs to
be the standard. That we need to stop focusing on
disparities and look at the excellence.
Speaker 2 (58:33):
I love that. Thanks great to have you on the team.
Than you, and to each one of you who've joined
us for today's edition of American, Indian and Alaska Native Living.
I'm doctor David DeRose, as always wishing you the very
best of health.
Speaker 5 (58:51):
Native Voice one the Native American radio network
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