May 18, 2025 • 58 mins
Host: David DeRose, MD, MPH. Guest: Hana Kahleova, MD, PhD, Director of Clinical Research, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. Description: Prior to European contact, many Native American tribes thrived on largely plant-based diets. Dr. Hana Kahleova shares cutting-edge research about some of the many benefits of such diets, including weight loss, diabetes reversal, and help for depression. For further information visit: PCRM.org
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to American, Indian and Alaska Native Living, a program
designed to educate and inspire listeners throughout Indian Country. American
Indian and Alaskan Native Living is hosted by doctor David Deroz,
a board certified specialist in both internal medicine and preventive medicine.
Doctor Deroz has a wide range of experience with native
(00:25):
health issues, and he is here today to help you
learn more about your health. Here is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to American Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor
David DeRose. We've got an amazing show lined up for
you today, a lot of really practical things that deal
with right where many of us find ourselves. Maybe we're
carrying a little bit more weight than we'd like. Maybe
the scale is not looking the way we'd like it
to look. Maybe we're well. Maybe we've made progress in
(00:52):
a tribal diabetes program, but still our blood sugars aren't
where we'd like them. We're dealing with some food challenges.
We have got an amazing research a very practical presenter
in the form of doctor Hannah Khaliova with us today. Hannah,
it's great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Thanks for having me, David.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's really exciting to hear about your work. I've seen
your publications over the years. You and I have i
think shared some stages before and in international congress or two.
But you recently were here on the West Coast in
the US, presenting at a conference at doctor Neil Netleye
Pulls Together. I had a chance to listen to some
(01:31):
of your presentations, and I was just really inspired by
how you're helping people really across the globe to get
a better handle on their metabolism, their weight, their diabetes.
And it was inspiring for me, as it is inspiring
for you to do that work, as it is for
some of us to learn about it.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
It's an absolute joy for me to work with people
and help them improve their nutrition and their lifestyle and
tackle their diabetes, help them lose weight. When I see
the changes that are happening so quickly, I'm always amazed,
you know, because it takes usually a few decades to
(02:09):
develop diabetes, and in just a matter of days and
weeks sometimes you see dramatic changes, you know, dramatic improvements.
People may be discontinuing some of their medications.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I mean, for me, it's a miracle.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
You know, it's like, what it took decades for them
to develop diabetes? How come the changes are happening so quickly?
And I'm always pumped up. You know when I see
all these changes in people's lives, I'm like, oh, this
is this is why I was.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Put on earth.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, you know, you're such a passionate presenter. You seem
so down to earth. But then people look at all
these letters after your name and they say, well, this
couldn't be a normal person. I mean, you've got a
medical doctorate, you've got a PhD. I think, don't even
have a master's in business or something. That's right, So
how does this story come about? Your accent sounds a
(03:06):
little bit different than most of the people I deal
with here in.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
The States, That's right.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
I was growing up in the former Czechoslovakia, which used
to be a communist country under the rule of Russia.
And you know, there was not much information about healthy
nutrition and healthy lifestyle when I was growing up, But
things started changing in nineteen eighty nine when communism fell.
(03:34):
You may recall how the Berlin Wall fell and communism
fell shortly after in our country, and then a medical
missionary came to our hometown and had lectures on a
healthy lifestyle. And at that time, I was fourteen, and
(03:55):
I started practicing everything.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
That I was learning in the lectures.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
So I told my parents that I wanted to become
a vegan, which was like unheard of at that time.
And my parents were just like, what, you cannot do this,
you know, you will stop growing, and they were really
concerned about my health. But then my mom eventually said, well,
(04:22):
you do your vegan diet, but you need to.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Cook for yourself.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
And she thought this is going to be over in
a week, and but you know, I said fine. And
you know, I was just learning through trials and errors
because I didn't have any recipes. There was no internet,
there were no vegan cookbooks. But anyway, you know, through
(04:46):
trial and I just figured out how to make it work.
And when I felt the changes, even though I was
a healthy person, I felt much better. I felt like
I felt like my physical fitness improved, and I thought,
I need to do this, and I need to help
(05:07):
people like change the lifestyle and change their nutrition like
this so that they can experience it for themselves, especially
those who are sick. Because you can make a bigger impact.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Then, you know, we need to break down some of
these terms, because you know, you've used this term vegan,
and a lot of folks today they may know what
that means. They may think they know what it means.
When you're speaking about a vegan diet. What does that
look like?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
A vegan diet emphasizes the consumption of all plant foods,
no animal products, only plants, so that means eating fruits
and vegetables, whole grains and legumes and nuts and seeds.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
That's it, Okay. Now, I don't know if we ever
crossed paths with you early in the days that communism
had fallen in the what was then Czechoslovakia, but my
wife and I were over there, you know, doing some
health education in those early days, as was doctor Nedley,
and I can remember there was as we talked with people,
(06:13):
there was this concerted educational effort to tell people they
needed how much meat they needed to eat. We were
kind of shocked. We said, well, like, what's the rationale
for this? Someone once told us was communism. You didn't
ask what the reason for it was. But I think
when people hear about your dietary change, today it may
not seem that revolutionary, but this was really totally countercultural
(06:37):
what you did.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
That's absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
I mean we were eating meat for breakfast, meat for lunch,
meat for dinner, you know, and everybody would believe that
this is what you.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Need to do for your health.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, now, what's amazing to me with that background, You've
been looking at all kinds of fascinating things. You've been
looking at mental health and diet, you've been looking metabolism.
But I think folks still want to learn a little
bit more about your story. So going from a fourteen
year old girl who gets on a vegan diet to
someone with a bunch of doctorates and now you've got
(07:13):
a very prestigious position. You're heading up research for the
Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine. Correct, that's right.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
So once I transitioned over to a vegan diet when
I was fourteen, and when I realized the power that
was in my hands, I just wanted to help other people.
And I also realized that people don't take you know,
anyone seriously. You know, if you're just telling your parents
(07:43):
and your relatives about the benefits of a vegan diet,
they may not be the correct audience, they may not
be as ready to make the changes. So I thought,
you know, it would be good for me to go
into medical school so that I just get all the
in depth education and so that there's some weight to
(08:06):
my recommendations also, And that's why I went to medical school.
I wanted to help as many people as possible, and
to my surprise, I didn't learn much about nutrition and
medical school and what was really one of the defining experiences.
(08:27):
You know, at the end of medical school you go
through all the clinical rotations, and when we were going
through internal medicine and endocrinology and diabetes, when I looked
at how people with diabetes were treated in the hospital,
the food that they were given. Basically they were only
told to count carbohydrates. And once you cut down on
(08:52):
bread and potatoes and rice, what are people mostly left
up with. They consume more meat and cheese. You know,
that makes their diabetes even worse and makes their complications
come sooner. So I physically couldn't look at it, you know,
I just had a physical reaction. I was just like
(09:15):
sick to my stomach, and I just thought, this.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Needs to change.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
And at that point, there was no scientific study showing
any benefits of a plant based diet for people with
type two diabetes. So I decided to do the study.
And so I finished medical school and I already hadn't
mind like the kind of study I want to do,
(09:40):
but it took a few years to you know, find
the right people, assemble the whole team, apply for funding,
get a grant from Ministry of Health in the Czech Republic,
which was a miracle by itself, I would say. And
then the first study was published on the benefits of
(10:01):
plant based nutrition in type two diabetes, and that was
doctor Barnard's study showing that a one C which is
a marker of glycemic control, improves three times more on
a vegan diet compared to the standard of art carbohydrate
counting diet. And my study was published a few years later,
(10:26):
looking in more detail and the mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So now a lot of people who are listening, they're familiar.
They maybe have diabetes, they have a love one wes diabetes,
and they're familiar with this concept of you know, counting
your carbohydrates and having to take the right amount of
insulin based on how many carbs you're eating. And as
they're listening to you, they're thinking, wait a minute, you're
talking on a plant based diet. I mean, typically plant
(10:50):
based diets have a lot of carbohydrates. Were you doing
more like a ketotype vegan diet with eating you know,
mostly high fad and high protein, or were you feeding
people much in the way of carbohydrates.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
This is an excellent question.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
We were giving people a high carbohydrate diet, so about
seventy percent of all the calories came from carbohydrates. People
usually double or even tripled their carbohydrate intake on a
vegan diet in our studies. We even did a study
for people with type one diabetes, and first they were
(11:27):
concerned about all the carbohydrates that they would be eating.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And then you know, even.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
After they doubled or tripled their carbohydrate intake, they needed
less insulin on the vegan diet, which was pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Now. I know you explain this in your articles in
one of your recent talks that I referred to, But
a lot of folks are just scratching their heads. They're saying, well,
you know, and I don't want to use much insulin.
I just eat bacon and eggs or something, and my
blood sugar stays nice and stable. But when I eat
those carb the sugar goes up and I got to
take more insulin. So how could it be that eating
(12:04):
a higher carb diet could actually help someone's diabetes. How
do you explain that to a lay person?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
That's an excellent question.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
We find that the more carbohydrates people are eating, the
more insulin sensitive they're becoming, because it's the muscles and
the brain that need glucose as their main fuel, and
if we give them the fuel, the metabolism gets trained
into processing it more efficiently. It's like, to give you
(12:37):
an analogy, It's like having a fireplace in your living
room and now you're getting smoke from the fireplace. That's
the high blood sugar you know. So, and now you
have two solutions. Either you will stop burning wood, so
you can go on a low carbohydrate diet. You may
(12:59):
not use much wood.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Or you know, very limited.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
That will reduce the smoke some, but you will not
really solve the problem. But if you want to get
to the bottom of it, you need to clean the chimney,
you need to clean the fireplace, and then you can
you can burn as much wood as you like without
any smoke. So that's what's happening. On a high carbohydrate diet.
You give the body the fuel it was designed for.
(13:26):
You know, our body is designed to burn carbohydrates. So
if we increase the carbohydrate intake, typically when people join
our studies, most people with diabetes are on some kind
of low carbohydrate diets or carbohydrate limited diets. So that's
the diet that brought in diabetes in the first place.
(13:49):
You know, it would be foolish to think that, you know,
this diet would also solve the diabetes. So obviously we
need to change something. So we turn it around. We
increase the carbohydrate intake. But those aren't the healthy carbs,
the carbs that are coming from legumes. Most people don't
consume quite enough legumes. In all the blue zones in
(14:12):
the world, where people live the longest and are the
healthiest on Earth, people consume about one cup of beans
every single day. So if we do it as a
part of a healthy plant based diet, we can reap
the health benefits tremendous.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So talking about that bean family, the legumes powerful. We're
going to talk more about that in other plant foods.
I'm talking with doctor Hanna Khalijova She is the director
of Clinical Research at the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine.
We've got a lot more coming up in today's edition
of the broadcast. Stay tuned. I'm doctor DeRose.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Today's broadcast has been pre recorded. However, if you have
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(15:14):
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We'll be right back after this.
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You're listening to doctor David Durouz on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five. Hope, that's
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Here again is doctor DeRose.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Welcome back to American, Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm
doctor David Durose. Doctor Hana Khaliova is my guest. She
currently represents the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine. And before
how are we dive into talking with you about more
practical things that can help you on your journey to betterhealth? Hana.
For folks that don't know much about the organization you represent,
(18:09):
tell us a little bit about who you work for
and what you guys do.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
The Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine is a nonprofit organization
based in Washington, DC that conducts nutrition research and provides
nutrition education. So for somebody who, for example, if you're listening,
if you, let's say you have diabetes and you don't
know anything about you know what you would eat on
(18:36):
a plant based diet. If you're interested in learning more
about our research and getting some recipes, you can go
on our website PCRM dot org and you can find
plenty of recipes. You can also find a free twenty
one day vegan Pickstart, which is a mobile app. You
(18:56):
know you can don't download it on your phone. It'll
give you a restupe for each single meal you will
eat for three weeks, just to jumpstart your vegan journey
if you'd like to give it a try. You can
also search for any health condition. Let's say somebody has
rheum arthritis. Then there's a search box on our website
(19:19):
and when you click that, then all the studies on
a health on the certain health condition will come up
that have been published on nutrition and what can help.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I'm glad you mentioned the autoimmune diseases. I know that
wasn't one of the topics that you were speaking to,
but there was a question during your sessions recently out
in California where you tackle that, and I was interested
to hear you folks have been using a very similar
approach that some of us in clinical settings have used,
but bringing a stronger research base to it, so tell
(19:51):
us a little bit about first of all, a general question,
someone with lupus, rheumatoiter arthritis, maybe they have inflammatory bowel disease.
Is there hope for them with dietary changes.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
It's such an important question and the answer is yes.
We did a study for people with rheumatoid arthritis, which
is one of the autoimmune conditions. Another study what we
did is for people with type one diabetes, so that's
another autoimmune condition. In the study with people with rheumatoid arthritis,
(20:23):
we put them on a vegan diet for three weeks,
and after three weeks on a purely vegan diet, people
started experiencing significant improvements already. But we find that in
autoimmune conditions usually we need to dig deeper and there
may be some additional food triggers that we may need
(20:47):
to discover. So for another three weeks we put these
folks on an elimination diet. The elimination diet takes out
of the plant based diettional food triggers that are common,
such as gluten such as soy nuts and chocolate, or
even a cocoa powder. There's a whole list of foods
(21:11):
that have been discovered to be problematic for people with
auto immune conditions more frequently than for other people.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And you know.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
So for three weeks, it was a pretty plain diet.
It was like people were able to eat rice and
veggies and their beans, but you know, not much else.
There was only a limited selection of the veggies of
the fruits. But gradually, after the three weeks of the
elimination diet, we started reintroducing the foods back one by one,
(21:47):
and so we were testing out the different foods, let's say,
vegetables from the night shade family. So you know, we
took a tomato and for three days the person was
introducing the tomatoes back and now eating them in significant
amounts to test it out. Now, if the symptoms came back,
(22:09):
if the joint started swelling again, you know, if they
were painful, then we excluded that food again and introduced
another one after three days, and we retested that specific
food because that was you know, one of the likely
foods that would be triggering the symptoms. And yeah, so
(22:32):
after the whole study took sixteen weeks, and after that
people discovered which specific foods may cause them problems.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, I love the elimination diets. It's a confusing concept
to people. I thought you explained it nicely. Most people
think elimination diet you're gradually eliminating things. It's just the opposite,
as you explained. You know, you start with a more
narrow diet. And for those that thought that you were
being very strict with folks, some of us, when we've
run elimination diets, started with water only fasts and sometimes
(23:03):
distilled water only. That requires often some more careful medical
management because you can get in trouble sometimes with electrolytes
and all.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
So.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, but it's amazing to find out that there's these
triggering foods that may be a healthy food right for
the average person, but for someone with an autoimmune disease,
could be a problem.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Absolutely, Well, let's come back to things that affect even
more people than autoimmune diseases. Even though those diseases seem
to be rising in what we call prevalence, a lot
more people seem to be affected today than in the past.
But let's talk about the metabolic diseases. Go back to that.
And I know a lot of folks, if they've been
with us from the top of the hour Hana, they
(23:43):
heard you speaking about some of the research you did
with vegan diets and diabetes. Now, a couple of things.
One is, I thought you made some very important points
in your lectures in California about the source of fat,
and you also spoke about a specific signature to the
(24:05):
cells of individuals who have diabetes. Can you kind of
walk us through that so we can understand it.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Yeah, this is absolutely fascinating. If somebody has diabetes, I
can tell they have diabetes not only by measuring their
blood sugar, but if I take your hair, or just
a few cells from your skin, or any cells from
your body, I would be able to tell that you
have diabetes based on a signature, a diabetes specific signature
(24:35):
on the cell membranes. So each cell in the person's
body who has diabetes has diabetes written all over the
cell membrane. And this specific signature consists of two components.
One is a high proportion of palmitic acid, which is
one of the saturated fats found mainly in dairy and
(25:00):
eggs and meat, And the other component is a low
proportion of linear aic acid, which is one of the
Omega six's unsaturated fatty acids found in plants. So the
thought came to our mind, what if we put people
on a plant based diet. What if we exclude the
(25:21):
animal products, what would happen to this diabetes signature in
the salmonmbranes. So for half a year we put people
on a plant based diet, or they followed carbohydrate restricted diet,
counting calories, counting carbohydrates, and for the first three months
(25:44):
they were on a diet only and for the subsequent
three months they were also on an exercise program. And
what we found out was really fascinating. There was a
clear difference between the groups. There was not much of
a change in the metabolic signature on the cell membranes
(26:05):
on the portion control diet, but on the plant based
diet the diabetes signature was basically erased because from all
the plants, people were now eating more of the lino
like acid, and so that proportion increased in the cell membranes.
(26:28):
And this increase in lino like acid in the cell
membranes was also associated with increased insulin sensitivity and loss
of fat, specifically the visceral fat around the inner organs,
which is the metabolically most dangerous. So the plant based
diet worked as a magic eraser on the diabetes signature
(26:51):
on the cell membranes, which is pretty cool and fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, it's so amazing. You know, sometimes when I speak
with haitians or audiences, you know, I say, just look
at the saturated fat. You know, the animal fat or
the butter or whatever tends to be solid at room temperature.
Those polyunsaturated fats tend to be liquid. Well, that's just
what happens to your cells when those membranes get more rigid.
You could tell us what happens as far as those
(27:16):
insulin receptors. Is that good or bad if you're eating
these fats that make your membranes more rigid.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, if you eat a lot of saturated fat, particularly
from the animal foods, then your cell membranes will become
more rigid, which has far reaching consequences for insulin signaling
because the insulin receptor is embedded in the cell membrane.
So now your cell membranes are more rigid, the insulin
(27:44):
receptor is not working. Well, it's like ajammed door lock.
And you know that's actually the basis of the insulin resistance. Now,
if you swap the fat and if you now go
for the one that are in plants. All of a sudden,
the biochemistry of the cell membrane changes also, it becomes
(28:08):
more fluid, and now the insulin receptor will be working
much better, so you will become more insulin sensitive, which
means that insulin, which is the hormone that just pushes
glucose inside the cells so that all the cells have
enough energy. And now everything is working well and your
(28:31):
metabolism is faster.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
This is amazing stuff. And for those of you listening
from Indian country, you're saying, well, this doesn't sound like
a native diet. We're going to talk a bit about
that because native wisdom actually points in this direction. We're
not saying necessarily a vegan diet, but definitely going in
that direction. We're going to talk about that in our
next segment on doctor David Droz, doctor Hanna Khaliova. She
will be staying by. I encourage you to do the same.
(28:55):
More coming up right after.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
This American, Indian and Alaska Native Living will continue in
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(29:18):
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Speaker 1 (31:29):
You're listening to doctor David Deurouz on American Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Welcome back to our second half of today's edition of
American Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor David Deurose,
Doctor Hana Khalijova is my guest. She heads up research
initiatives for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine based in Washington.
Speaker 8 (32:03):
D C.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
If you've not been with us from the top of
the hour, Hanna's roots hail from the former Czechoslovakia, now
the Czech Republic, and she's been bringing her talents and
her enthusiasm for preventive medicine here to the United States.
But her influence is being felt around the world. Really,
I say that, Hannah, because you publish in top tiered
(32:25):
medical journals. I mean, people have seen your research and
very significant places. So we really appreciate what you've been doing.
And we're so thankful you've taken some time to join
us today.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Thank you so much for your kind words, David.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And it's my joy and it's my pleasure.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
It brings me a lot of joy to help so
many people around the world.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Now, one of the things that I promised my audience
we talk about is this native connection. And you and
I were speaking off air about a book that was
written some years ago that was entitled Diabetes as a
Disease of Civilization, and it looked a lot at indigenous practices,
including practices of Native Americans with a Native researchers talking
(33:06):
about basically how there was no diabetes in Indian country
prior to European contact, and how Native Americans throughout the
country largely and I know we have a huge listening
audience throughout the US into Hawaii and Alaska, and of
course there are some tribes that didn't have a huge
agricultural base, but many of them, many many tribes, even
(33:28):
in the desert southwest, the Hocme peoples that are the
predecessors of the Tahana atoms and the Pima peoples irrigating
huge tracts of land and what's now the Sonoran Desert.
So it's just really amazing the history tell us a
little bit about kind of this native wisdom, because whether
you go to the southwest, whether you go to the northeast,
(33:50):
we hear about these three Sisters. I know you've had
as an organization, you've collaborated some with some tribes in
helping them reclaim this kind of I want to say,
lost heritage in some places, people with Native roots, they're
in urban areas, they're eating just like the Europeans that
they're around. Give us some insight into why it's so
(34:10):
important to reconnect with the three sisters, important.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
For everybody to understand their roots.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
And we find that all the native diets, you know,
are pretty healthy. They usually emphasize a grain and a
legiume and some kind of vegetable. So, you know, in
this case, the three sisters are the corn and the
squash and the beans. And what's amazing about it, they
(34:38):
grow together in a harmony. They help each other out.
So growing them together is much more effective than growing
them separately. And so if you grow them together, why
wouldn't you harvest them together and eat them together?
Speaker 7 (34:54):
Right?
Speaker 4 (34:55):
And we find that a similar concept is found around
the world, you know, like for example, people in Mexico
they may eat corn and beans, you know, the corn
tortillas and beans and veggies. So it's a similar concept.
And we find that this combination of foods is the
(35:17):
most nutritious. And you know, it's basically we see around
the whole world that people the traditional diets just emphasize
a whole grain, a legume and the vegetable.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
So some of my listeners, Hana, they are saying, Okay, well,
I hear some of what this researcher is saying. But
I'm still going to have some fish and some wild game.
I mean, this is part of my cultural heritage. You
don't necessarily tell people they have to leave off all
the animal products to get benefit.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Correct, That's completely up to them what specific diet they
want to adopt. But you know, in deciding what you
want to eat, it really helps to know what research.
And the research shows that the less animal products you eat,
the better off you will be because plants are just amazing.
They give us so many antioxidants and fiber. They're alkalin
(36:14):
compared with animal foods, so they will help you with
your pH to turn it more alkaline and help you
avoid all the chronic diseases such as cardiovascular disease and
cancer and diabetes. So the more plants you eat and
the less animal products, the leaner you will be, the
(36:35):
better for your metabolism and the lower the risk of
your chronic disease.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Well, now I'm going to get into some touchy areas here,
doctor Khaliova, because folks, if they know your research, you've
not only been telling people, well, some people would say
if they're not if they don't like you, and so
you're trying to take away all my good foods. You're
trying to take away my animal products. But then some
of your research suggesting that I can't eat as much
(37:01):
as I want, you know, times you're trying to restrict
when I eat. We want to talk a little bit
about that. And as they start listening to the stuff
that you're talking about, they're saying, you know, maybe you're
not gonna have diabetes, but I'm going to be depressed.
I'm going to be I mean, this is terrible the
kind of things you're talking about. Who cares if you
don't have diabetes? Do we know anything about the mental
effects of some of the things you're recommending. Are people
(37:24):
getting depressed, discouraged, or you know, suicide rates go up
when people follow these approaches.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
The mental health issues are so important in our country.
It turns out that people who are overweight have an
over fifty percent higher risk of developing depression and vice versa.
People with depression have a more than fifty percent higher
risk of being overweight. And so what's the way out
(37:52):
If we change the diet, then we see that people's
moods really react quickly. In our studies, we look at
mental health aspects, We look at quality of life, depressive symptoms,
feelings of hunger, and stuff like that. And we find
that on a plentised diet, people report less feelings of
(38:14):
depression and they feel a better quality of life. So
that's huge because now we're kind of breaking the vicious
cycle and now we're finally getting somewhere. If you feel better,
you will not be as compelled to eating those unhealthy
foods that are not good for you. You will be
(38:35):
more likely to stick to your diet plan that emphasizes
the foods that are good for your health. Now you
increase willpower. Now you have a system in place. Now
we can create a group support for these people. We
usually we work with groups in our research studies. We
(38:57):
have a weekly class for roughly fifteen to twenty people
in one class where they can just share their experiences,
their successes and challenges. And it's actually encouraging to see that.
You know, most people go through similar challenges as I do.
That it's nothing unusual, and you know, they encourage each other,
(39:19):
they help problems solve each other, and you know, we
build a healthy community that way.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
We got to wait into this meal timing issue, and
I'm interested in it because of some of the accounts
that I've read throughout Indian country where First nation peoples,
it seems, you know, you'll read some accounts from Europeans
who encountered Native Americans early on, and they talk about
their temperance. They wouldn't overeat, they wouldn't typically eat late
(39:47):
in the day, and some of the accounts. Is there
really something to the meal timing. I know you've looked
at it, but is this real that if we look
at the time that we're eating, it can make a
big difference in our health.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
This is a fascinating topic and I studied this topic
in lom Linda, California, in one of the Blue zones
where people lived the longest and are the healthiest on Earth.
And we looked at meal timing and frequency, how many
meals people were eating and when they were eating, and
how they were gaining weight over time, or if they
(40:20):
were gaining weight at all, And what we found was
pretty fascinating. We found that compared with eating three meals
a day breakfast, lunch, and dinner, those who ate some
snacks at least one snack a day, those people's BMI
was increasing over time. So compared with three meals a day,
(40:43):
snacking was just not good for their weight management. There
was a large group of people, though, who were consuming
only two meals a day breakfast and lunch, and those
were leaner than people who consumed three meals a day.
And we also found that eating the largest meal as
(41:05):
breakfast was most beneficial for the waistline. People who are
consuming the largest meal in the morning were better off
in terms of weight management compared to those who ate
the largest meal as lunch, and those who ate dinner
as the largest meal were the worst of compared, you know,
(41:25):
like in terms of weight management.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Well, we talked a little bit about the mental health
effects of food choices, but what about the meal timing.
I mean, do people get depressed discouraged when they're not
able to just eat throughout the day.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
It turns out that restricting your meal intake and making
a system in your meal intake is very beneficial for
our mental health. We put it to the test in
a randomized clinical trial where we had over fifty people
with type two diabetes and they either followed six small
(42:01):
meals during the day or two meals a day breakfast
and lunch for twelve weeks, and after twelve weeks, they
switched over to the opposite dietary intervention, so each participant
tried both of these approaches on themselves. What we found
was really fascinating. People lost fifty percent more weight on
(42:22):
the two meals a day, even though the calories were
the same, you know, the diet was the same. They
lost more liver fat, their insolent sensitivity increased more, and
what was really fascinating was that they reported less depressive symptoms,
so their mood improved. And the kicker is that they
(42:47):
felt less hungry than on the six meals a day,
which is the opposite of what people were expecting in
the beginning of the study. In the beginning, people were like, Doug,
I don't know if I can do the diet. You know,
two meals a day. That sounds like I'll be starving
in the evening. I don't know if I can do this.
And I told them, well, you give it a try
(43:08):
for a week, you know, and if it's not working,
then it's on me. Don't worry about it. And after
only three days people usually adopted the new system and
they started loving it, you know, all of a sudden,
they were like, what I can eat only two meals?
A day. I feel full, I feel happy, I feel satisfied.
(43:30):
There's less prep work. You know, it makes my life easier.
I save on groceries. I mean, all of these benefits.
So most people actually decided to stick with it for
life after the study was over.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
It is a powerful program. I tried it out years
ago and I haven't gone back, so I know, it
really is amazing. And you think, you know, people see
you in the evening and they're saying, like, why are
you not eating? You know, and aren't you tempted? Because
I'll be sitting people who are eating, and I'll say, no,
it actually makes me feel worse if I eat. So
(44:05):
you know, your body is really pretty amazing how it
can adapt, and just so amazing to see the research
that you've basically, you know, done this, these studies where
you know, many of us have maybe tried some of
these things over the years or have used them with
our patients, and you and your team have been putting
out some really solid data showing that this stuff really works.
It's not just what we call anecdotal evidence, you know,
(44:27):
not just stories from somebody or somebody's grandmother, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
It's all evidence based, so.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Do me a favor and before we have to step
away briefly again, we'll come back with the final segment,
but give us one more time. How we can tap
into some of the great stuff you're putting together with
the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
You can find all our research on our website PCRM
dot org and you can find many recipes. You can
find many resources, even Native American resources. So go to
PCRN dot org to learn more.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Wonderful you stay tuned with us if you're tuning in today,
because doctor Hana Khalijova will stay by I will too.
We've got a final segment coming up, some important material
that you don't want to miss. Stay tuned. I'm doctor Deroz.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Today's broadcast has been prerecorded. However, if you have questions
about today's show or would like further information, please call
one eight hundred seven to seven five hope. That's one
eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three. We'll
be right back after this.
Speaker 12 (45:41):
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You can't just close the door on earthquakes, floods or
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You'll be ready. Visit ready dot gov slash plan and
make a plan today. Brought to you by FEMA and
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just changing the song.
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When it comes to distracted driving, just don't.
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Sending a text takes your eyes off the road for
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Any distracted driving just isn't worth it.
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Visit stop texts, Stop rex dot org.
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A message brought to you by the National Highway Traffic
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Speaker 7 (46:40):
What is a number story?
Speaker 8 (46:42):
My number story started with fear and lack of support,
and it has led me to be there for others.
Speaker 7 (46:47):
A number story begins in our childhood with aces adverse
childhood experiences.
Speaker 13 (46:53):
My number story begins with the separation from my father
and the emotional abandonment from my mother and leads to
me being a role model to not only myself well
but those around me by becoming a person that wasn't
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Speaker 7 (47:03):
Aces are so common two thirds of us have one.
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My number story begins with drug abuse and homelessness and
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Take control of where your number story leads. At numberstory
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Speaker 1 (47:44):
You're listening to doctor David Derouse on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seven five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Derouse.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Welcome back for our final segment of American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor David Deuroz, doctor Hanna Khalijova,
my guests, She's joining us from Washington, d C. From
the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. Hannah, We've been speaking
about a lot of very practical things that connect us
with some of I would say wisdom that's throughout Indian country.
(48:23):
Maybe people wouldn't have necessarily sized it up that way
on some of these topics. But one of the things
that I mentioned earlier on from my encounters throughout First
Nation peoples on this continent is this appreciation that many
of the First Europeans had for the temperance, the self
(48:43):
control that Native Americans seem to have when it came
to eating. This is a really hot topic today because
we hear a lot of people talking about food addictions.
We hear other people saying, oh, that's nonsense, you can't
be addicted to food. Can you help us sort through
that topic a little bit.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, this is an important question.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
You know, when you look at brain scans, then when
you eat a meal, there's a physiologic reaction and your
reward circuits in the brain will just light up. The
brighter the color, the more active, and there will be
a lot of red and orange and yellow when you
eat a meal. That means that you're experiencing pleasure. And satisfaction,
(49:25):
which is a physiologic reaction. Now, when you look at
a brain scan of a person who's addicted to let's
say cocaine, then the response will be blunted and these
reward circuits will not shine as brightly. They will be
more green, there will be hardly any yellow, and there
(49:48):
will be no.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Red or orange.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
So that response is blunted, which means that the person
is not experiencing as much pleasure. Now, when you look
at people who struggle with being overweight and look at
their brain scans, what do their brain scans look like?
Is it more like a healthy person or is it
more like an addicted person. It turns out that the
(50:13):
image is very similar to any other addictions. The reward
circuits are just blunted. The response is blunted. The colors
are just like green, hardly any warm colors. So these
people are also experiencing less pleasure, which drives them to
(50:35):
select the foods that will give them like a higher stimuli.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
So let me see if I understand this correctly. So
what I hear you saying is, if let's say I
got significant pleasure out of eating a nice apple, if
you gave that to someone who was prone to food addictions,
they may not have much of a response to that.
Am I applying that right? Or am I missing something
(51:00):
that's exactly right?
Speaker 3 (51:01):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
And so instead of trying to regain an appreciation for
simple things, the brain tries to look for kind of
highly maybe even addictive things that will give them more
of a dopamine rush, if we can use that term exactly.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
The brain is looking for something that will give it
like the sense of satisfaction and pleasure, which it didn't
find in the simple foods. And when we look at
which foods are the most addictive, there's a survey of
almost four hundred people that ask people, you know, which
foods do you feel like you're losing control of and
(51:45):
you have hard time getting away from? And the top
five foods are Number five is ice cream, Number four
is cookies, Number three potato chips, Number two chocolate, and
number one was pizza. And it was the cheese in
pizza that's the most addictive substance. And what do all
(52:10):
these foods have in common. They're super high in fat,
but the fat is also mixed with either sugar or salt,
so that increases the addictive properties of that particular food. Now,
is it possible to get away from those food addictions?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
That's the question.
Speaker 4 (52:30):
Yeah, we're up against food addictions in most of our
studies that we start. You know, mostly when people consider
going on a vegan diet, they're like, I like to
do it, but I don't know how I can live
without cheese. I don't know how I can, you know,
not eat all these all these fatty foods. I'd like to,
(52:51):
but you know, I'm I'm you know, my habits are
in this way and I like them and I have
a relationship with and so the approaches that we found
most effective are just cutting out all these foods immediately
(53:12):
and all of a sudden. Some people believe that, you know,
gradual steps may be effective. We find the opposite. We
find that just cutting out all these foods is really
helpful because now you are forced to search for different
foods and if you don't have them in the house,
if the only dessert you have in the house is
(53:34):
an apple, guess what's going to be for dessert? You know,
you will eat an apple.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
That's easy.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
And once you follow through for the first few weeks,
after three weeks, it becomes much easier you now develop,
You've developed new habits, You've discovered new foods because you
were forced to. You know, you said goodbye to some
of your favorite foods. Now you had to try new recipes,
(54:02):
try new meals, and try new desserts that would be
healthy and good for you.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
So, has anyone actually done brain scans after someone goes
through a process like this? Does the brain respond better
to these simple foods?
Speaker 4 (54:17):
This would be a fascinating study. We haven't done a
brain scan study just yet, but this is something that
I'd love to do.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Well. We're keeping our ears to the ground, so to speak,
to see what comes out, because you guys keep doing
all kinds of very interesting stuff. We're really in the
home stretch of today's broadcast, but I don't want to
get too far away from this subject of food addictions
because the presentation I heard you giving out in California,
you gave a number of practical things that people could
do to kind of rewire their brains or break free
(54:47):
of these addictions. So I heard the first one right now,
and that is make a clean break with the problem foods.
Are there some other things that would be important in
that process?
Speaker 3 (54:57):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (54:58):
Number two is reduce your exposure. Don't have them in
your house. If you need to avoid the aisles in
the grocery store, you know, do whatever you can do
to reduce your exposure. Just you know, pretend they don't
exist for at least a certain period of time, and
that will force you to develop new habits, expand your
(55:21):
portfolio of your favorite foods, but also other favorite activities.
What addictions do is that they're narrowing down our focus
and our world. You know. So let's say you're sad
and you're automatically reaching out for potato chips, or you
feel frustrated and you're grabbing a cookie. That's like a shortcut.
(55:47):
We need to completely like rewire the brain. So now
you need to also recognize the triggers that make you
reach out to all those foods, and you need to
develop new habits. So let's say you were said and
instead of eating potato chips, you go for a walk.
(56:08):
You develop a new habit. When you feel isolated, instead
of grabbing a cookie, you call a friend or visit
a friend.
Speaker 2 (56:17):
I love so much what you're saying, because a lot
of people, when they're trying to break a habit, they say, well,
I don't know what I'm going to do when I'm angry,
but I'm just not going to eat cookies. And all
they're thinking about is not eating cookies. But I love
what you're saying. You've got to put something positive in
the place of it. And I've told people, yeah, it
may not be the same. You may feel better initially
with the cookie than going for a walk, but like
(56:40):
you said, doctor Khaliova, you're helping people to rewire their brains,
doing something that's going to actually help them physiologically right
rather than hurting them.
Speaker 4 (56:49):
And most importantly, what's on the other side. On the
other side of this, there's freedom, freedom from the addiction.
So yes, it may feel challenging at times, but it's
worth it, and you know it'll it won't take long.
You know it won't take forever. You will eventually find
(57:09):
new pleasures and new joys in life, and they will
be different, but they will make you free from that
addiction that you've formed originally.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Well, unfortunately, you have a lot more wisdom and insights
that we could tap into in just a single hour show,
So we have to wind down. But before we do,
there's folks that maybe want to connect with your research.
They want to connect with others at PCRM who are
doing things, or maybe even the worldwide literature that you
have access to at your website. Tell us one more
(57:41):
time how we can connect with you and your team.
Speaker 4 (57:44):
The best place to find more our research is PCRM
dot org, which is our website, and you can find
plenty of recipes, a free twenty one day vegan pigstart,
and resources to help you with different healthcare.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
You know, I love that you guys have made this
easy for people say, Hey, you just want to try
what doctor Khaliova has been speaking about. You don't know
how to go about it. Three weeks, you've got full
recipes everything in the twenty one day kickstart. Someone can
just go to PCRM dot org and they'll find it
easily correct. That's right, Hannah. I'm excited about what you're doing.
(58:21):
Thank you so much for pulling away and sharing your
insights with us, and I would say really kind of
undergirding a lot of the wisdom that's been out there
with indigenous peoples for centuries. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (58:31):
Thank you for all your wonderful work, David, and thanks for.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
Having me and to each one of you who've joined
us today. Thank you for investing in your health by
joining us on today's edition of American, Indian and Alaska
Native Living. For all of us, I'm doctor David Durose,
wishing you the very best of health.
Speaker 5 (58:51):
Native Voice one the Native American radio network
Welcome to American, Indian and Alaska Native Living, a program
designed to educate and inspire listeners throughout Indian Country. American
Indian and Alaskan Native Living is hosted by doctor David Deroz,
a board certified specialist in both internal medicine and preventive medicine.
Doctor Deroz has a wide range of experience with native
(00:25):
health issues, and he is here today to help you
learn more about your health. Here is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Welcome to American Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor
David DeRose. We've got an amazing show lined up for
you today, a lot of really practical things that deal
with right where many of us find ourselves. Maybe we're
carrying a little bit more weight than we'd like. Maybe
the scale is not looking the way we'd like it
to look. Maybe we're well. Maybe we've made progress in
(00:52):
a tribal diabetes program, but still our blood sugars aren't
where we'd like them. We're dealing with some food challenges.
We have got an amazing research a very practical presenter
in the form of doctor Hannah Khaliova with us today. Hannah,
it's great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Thanks for having me, David.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
It's really exciting to hear about your work. I've seen
your publications over the years. You and I have i
think shared some stages before and in international congress or two.
But you recently were here on the West Coast in
the US, presenting at a conference at doctor Neil Netleye
Pulls Together. I had a chance to listen to some
(01:31):
of your presentations, and I was just really inspired by
how you're helping people really across the globe to get
a better handle on their metabolism, their weight, their diabetes.
And it was inspiring for me, as it is inspiring
for you to do that work, as it is for
some of us to learn about it.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
It's an absolute joy for me to work with people
and help them improve their nutrition and their lifestyle and
tackle their diabetes, help them lose weight. When I see
the changes that are happening so quickly, I'm always amazed,
you know, because it takes usually a few decades to
(02:09):
develop diabetes, and in just a matter of days and
weeks sometimes you see dramatic changes, you know, dramatic improvements.
People may be discontinuing some of their medications.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I mean, for me, it's a miracle.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
You know, it's like, what it took decades for them
to develop diabetes? How come the changes are happening so quickly?
And I'm always pumped up. You know when I see
all these changes in people's lives, I'm like, oh, this
is this is why I was.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Put on earth.
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Well, you know, you're such a passionate presenter. You seem
so down to earth. But then people look at all
these letters after your name and they say, well, this
couldn't be a normal person. I mean, you've got a
medical doctorate, you've got a PhD. I think, don't even
have a master's in business or something. That's right, So
how does this story come about? Your accent sounds a
(03:06):
little bit different than most of the people I deal
with here in.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
The States, That's right.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
I was growing up in the former Czechoslovakia, which used
to be a communist country under the rule of Russia.
And you know, there was not much information about healthy
nutrition and healthy lifestyle when I was growing up, But
things started changing in nineteen eighty nine when communism fell.
(03:34):
You may recall how the Berlin Wall fell and communism
fell shortly after in our country, and then a medical
missionary came to our hometown and had lectures on a
healthy lifestyle. And at that time, I was fourteen, and
(03:55):
I started practicing everything.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
That I was learning in the lectures.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
So I told my parents that I wanted to become
a vegan, which was like unheard of at that time.
And my parents were just like, what, you cannot do this,
you know, you will stop growing, and they were really
concerned about my health. But then my mom eventually said, well,
(04:22):
you do your vegan diet, but you need to.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Cook for yourself.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
And she thought this is going to be over in
a week, and but you know, I said fine. And
you know, I was just learning through trials and errors
because I didn't have any recipes. There was no internet,
there were no vegan cookbooks. But anyway, you know, through
(04:46):
trial and I just figured out how to make it work.
And when I felt the changes, even though I was
a healthy person, I felt much better. I felt like
I felt like my physical fitness improved, and I thought,
I need to do this, and I need to help
(05:07):
people like change the lifestyle and change their nutrition like
this so that they can experience it for themselves, especially
those who are sick. Because you can make a bigger impact.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Then, you know, we need to break down some of
these terms, because you know, you've used this term vegan,
and a lot of folks today they may know what
that means. They may think they know what it means.
When you're speaking about a vegan diet. What does that
look like?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
A vegan diet emphasizes the consumption of all plant foods,
no animal products, only plants, so that means eating fruits
and vegetables, whole grains and legumes and nuts and seeds.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
That's it, Okay. Now, I don't know if we ever
crossed paths with you early in the days that communism
had fallen in the what was then Czechoslovakia, but my
wife and I were over there, you know, doing some
health education in those early days, as was doctor Nedley,
and I can remember there was as we talked with people,
(06:13):
there was this concerted educational effort to tell people they
needed how much meat they needed to eat. We were
kind of shocked. We said, well, like, what's the rationale
for this? Someone once told us was communism. You didn't
ask what the reason for it was. But I think
when people hear about your dietary change, today it may
not seem that revolutionary, but this was really totally countercultural
(06:37):
what you did.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
That's absolutely right.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
I mean we were eating meat for breakfast, meat for lunch,
meat for dinner, you know, and everybody would believe that
this is what you.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Need to do for your health.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Well, now, what's amazing to me with that background, You've
been looking at all kinds of fascinating things. You've been
looking at mental health and diet, you've been looking metabolism.
But I think folks still want to learn a little
bit more about your story. So going from a fourteen
year old girl who gets on a vegan diet to
someone with a bunch of doctorates and now you've got
(07:13):
a very prestigious position. You're heading up research for the
Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine. Correct, that's right.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
So once I transitioned over to a vegan diet when
I was fourteen, and when I realized the power that
was in my hands, I just wanted to help other people.
And I also realized that people don't take you know,
anyone seriously. You know, if you're just telling your parents
(07:43):
and your relatives about the benefits of a vegan diet,
they may not be the correct audience, they may not
be as ready to make the changes. So I thought,
you know, it would be good for me to go
into medical school so that I just get all the
in depth education and so that there's some weight to
(08:06):
my recommendations also, And that's why I went to medical school.
I wanted to help as many people as possible, and
to my surprise, I didn't learn much about nutrition and
medical school and what was really one of the defining experiences.
(08:27):
You know, at the end of medical school you go
through all the clinical rotations, and when we were going
through internal medicine and endocrinology and diabetes, when I looked
at how people with diabetes were treated in the hospital,
the food that they were given. Basically they were only
told to count carbohydrates. And once you cut down on
(08:52):
bread and potatoes and rice, what are people mostly left
up with. They consume more meat and cheese. You know,
that makes their diabetes even worse and makes their complications
come sooner. So I physically couldn't look at it, you know,
I just had a physical reaction. I was just like
(09:15):
sick to my stomach, and I just thought, this.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Needs to change.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
And at that point, there was no scientific study showing
any benefits of a plant based diet for people with
type two diabetes. So I decided to do the study.
And so I finished medical school and I already hadn't
mind like the kind of study I want to do,
(09:40):
but it took a few years to you know, find
the right people, assemble the whole team, apply for funding,
get a grant from Ministry of Health in the Czech Republic,
which was a miracle by itself, I would say. And
then the first study was published on the benefits of
(10:01):
plant based nutrition in type two diabetes, and that was
doctor Barnard's study showing that a one C which is
a marker of glycemic control, improves three times more on
a vegan diet compared to the standard of art carbohydrate
counting diet. And my study was published a few years later,
(10:26):
looking in more detail and the mechanisms.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
So now a lot of people who are listening, they're familiar.
They maybe have diabetes, they have a love one wes diabetes,
and they're familiar with this concept of you know, counting
your carbohydrates and having to take the right amount of
insulin based on how many carbs you're eating. And as
they're listening to you, they're thinking, wait a minute, you're
talking on a plant based diet. I mean, typically plant
(10:50):
based diets have a lot of carbohydrates. Were you doing
more like a ketotype vegan diet with eating you know,
mostly high fad and high protein, or were you feeding
people much in the way of carbohydrates.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
This is an excellent question.
Speaker 4 (11:05):
We were giving people a high carbohydrate diet, so about
seventy percent of all the calories came from carbohydrates. People
usually double or even tripled their carbohydrate intake on a
vegan diet in our studies. We even did a study
for people with type one diabetes, and first they were
(11:27):
concerned about all the carbohydrates that they would be eating.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
And then you know, even.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
After they doubled or tripled their carbohydrate intake, they needed
less insulin on the vegan diet, which was pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Now. I know you explain this in your articles in
one of your recent talks that I referred to, But
a lot of folks are just scratching their heads. They're saying, well,
you know, and I don't want to use much insulin.
I just eat bacon and eggs or something, and my
blood sugar stays nice and stable. But when I eat
those carb the sugar goes up and I got to
take more insulin. So how could it be that eating
(12:04):
a higher carb diet could actually help someone's diabetes. How
do you explain that to a lay person?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
That's an excellent question.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
We find that the more carbohydrates people are eating, the
more insulin sensitive they're becoming, because it's the muscles and
the brain that need glucose as their main fuel, and
if we give them the fuel, the metabolism gets trained
into processing it more efficiently. It's like, to give you
(12:37):
an analogy, It's like having a fireplace in your living
room and now you're getting smoke from the fireplace. That's
the high blood sugar you know. So, and now you
have two solutions. Either you will stop burning wood, so
you can go on a low carbohydrate diet. You may
(12:59):
not use much wood.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Or you know, very limited.
Speaker 4 (13:03):
That will reduce the smoke some, but you will not
really solve the problem. But if you want to get
to the bottom of it, you need to clean the chimney,
you need to clean the fireplace, and then you can
you can burn as much wood as you like without
any smoke. So that's what's happening. On a high carbohydrate diet.
You give the body the fuel it was designed for.
(13:26):
You know, our body is designed to burn carbohydrates. So
if we increase the carbohydrate intake, typically when people join
our studies, most people with diabetes are on some kind
of low carbohydrate diets or carbohydrate limited diets. So that's
the diet that brought in diabetes in the first place.
(13:49):
You know, it would be foolish to think that, you know,
this diet would also solve the diabetes. So obviously we
need to change something. So we turn it around. We
increase the carbohydrate intake. But those aren't the healthy carbs,
the carbs that are coming from legumes. Most people don't
consume quite enough legumes. In all the blue zones in
(14:12):
the world, where people live the longest and are the
healthiest on Earth, people consume about one cup of beans
every single day. So if we do it as a
part of a healthy plant based diet, we can reap
the health benefits tremendous.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
So talking about that bean family, the legumes powerful. We're
going to talk more about that in other plant foods.
I'm talking with doctor Hanna Khalijova She is the director
of Clinical Research at the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine.
We've got a lot more coming up in today's edition
of the broadcast. Stay tuned. I'm doctor DeRose.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Today's broadcast has been pre recorded. However, if you have
questions about today's show or would like further information, please
reach out to us on the web at aia n
L dot org that stands for American Indian Alaska Native
Living Again aia n L dot org, or you can
(15:14):
call us at one eight hundred seven seventy five hope.
That's one eight hundred seven seventy five four six seventy three.
We'll be right back after this.
Speaker 5 (15:25):
We are strong, we are resilient, and we will get
through this together. But these are stressful times and it's
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(15:46):
Learn more at We Arebroadcasters dot com slash hope furnished
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Speaker 6 (15:56):
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Once I was approved, the USDA's Farm Service Agency helped
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(16:17):
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Speaker 1 (16:19):
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Dot FSA dot USDA dot gov.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
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So do your needs.
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For over eighty years, social Security has helped to meet
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Speaker 9 (17:19):
Gov produced a US taxpayer expense.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
You're listening to doctor David Durouz on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five. Hope, that's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor DeRose.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Welcome back to American, Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm
doctor David Durose. Doctor Hana Khaliova is my guest. She
currently represents the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine. And before
how are we dive into talking with you about more
practical things that can help you on your journey to betterhealth? Hana.
For folks that don't know much about the organization you represent,
(18:09):
tell us a little bit about who you work for
and what you guys do.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
The Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine is a nonprofit organization
based in Washington, DC that conducts nutrition research and provides
nutrition education. So for somebody who, for example, if you're listening,
if you, let's say you have diabetes and you don't
know anything about you know what you would eat on
(18:36):
a plant based diet. If you're interested in learning more
about our research and getting some recipes, you can go
on our website PCRM dot org and you can find
plenty of recipes. You can also find a free twenty
one day vegan Pickstart, which is a mobile app. You
(18:56):
know you can don't download it on your phone. It'll
give you a restupe for each single meal you will
eat for three weeks, just to jumpstart your vegan journey
if you'd like to give it a try. You can
also search for any health condition. Let's say somebody has
rheum arthritis. Then there's a search box on our website
(19:19):
and when you click that, then all the studies on
a health on the certain health condition will come up
that have been published on nutrition and what can help.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
I'm glad you mentioned the autoimmune diseases. I know that
wasn't one of the topics that you were speaking to,
but there was a question during your sessions recently out
in California where you tackle that, and I was interested
to hear you folks have been using a very similar
approach that some of us in clinical settings have used,
but bringing a stronger research base to it, so tell
(19:51):
us a little bit about first of all, a general question,
someone with lupus, rheumatoiter arthritis, maybe they have inflammatory bowel disease.
Is there hope for them with dietary changes.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
It's such an important question and the answer is yes.
We did a study for people with rheumatoid arthritis, which
is one of the autoimmune conditions. Another study what we
did is for people with type one diabetes, so that's
another autoimmune condition. In the study with people with rheumatoid arthritis,
(20:23):
we put them on a vegan diet for three weeks,
and after three weeks on a purely vegan diet, people
started experiencing significant improvements already. But we find that in
autoimmune conditions usually we need to dig deeper and there
may be some additional food triggers that we may need
(20:47):
to discover. So for another three weeks we put these
folks on an elimination diet. The elimination diet takes out
of the plant based diettional food triggers that are common,
such as gluten such as soy nuts and chocolate, or
even a cocoa powder. There's a whole list of foods
(21:11):
that have been discovered to be problematic for people with
auto immune conditions more frequently than for other people.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
And you know.
Speaker 4 (21:22):
So for three weeks, it was a pretty plain diet.
It was like people were able to eat rice and
veggies and their beans, but you know, not much else.
There was only a limited selection of the veggies of
the fruits. But gradually, after the three weeks of the
elimination diet, we started reintroducing the foods back one by one,
(21:47):
and so we were testing out the different foods, let's say,
vegetables from the night shade family. So you know, we
took a tomato and for three days the person was
introducing the tomatoes back and now eating them in significant
amounts to test it out. Now, if the symptoms came back,
(22:09):
if the joint started swelling again, you know, if they
were painful, then we excluded that food again and introduced
another one after three days, and we retested that specific
food because that was you know, one of the likely
foods that would be triggering the symptoms. And yeah, so
(22:32):
after the whole study took sixteen weeks, and after that
people discovered which specific foods may cause them problems.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Yeah, I love the elimination diets. It's a confusing concept
to people. I thought you explained it nicely. Most people
think elimination diet you're gradually eliminating things. It's just the opposite,
as you explained. You know, you start with a more
narrow diet. And for those that thought that you were
being very strict with folks, some of us, when we've
run elimination diets, started with water only fasts and sometimes
(23:03):
distilled water only. That requires often some more careful medical
management because you can get in trouble sometimes with electrolytes
and all.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
So.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
Yeah, but it's amazing to find out that there's these
triggering foods that may be a healthy food right for
the average person, but for someone with an autoimmune disease,
could be a problem.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Absolutely, Well, let's come back to things that affect even
more people than autoimmune diseases. Even though those diseases seem
to be rising in what we call prevalence, a lot
more people seem to be affected today than in the past.
But let's talk about the metabolic diseases. Go back to that.
And I know a lot of folks, if they've been
with us from the top of the hour Hana, they
(23:43):
heard you speaking about some of the research you did
with vegan diets and diabetes. Now, a couple of things.
One is, I thought you made some very important points
in your lectures in California about the source of fat,
and you also spoke about a specific signature to the
(24:05):
cells of individuals who have diabetes. Can you kind of
walk us through that so we can understand it.
Speaker 4 (24:11):
Yeah, this is absolutely fascinating. If somebody has diabetes, I
can tell they have diabetes not only by measuring their
blood sugar, but if I take your hair, or just
a few cells from your skin, or any cells from
your body, I would be able to tell that you
have diabetes based on a signature, a diabetes specific signature
(24:35):
on the cell membranes. So each cell in the person's
body who has diabetes has diabetes written all over the
cell membrane. And this specific signature consists of two components.
One is a high proportion of palmitic acid, which is
one of the saturated fats found mainly in dairy and
(25:00):
eggs and meat, And the other component is a low
proportion of linear aic acid, which is one of the
Omega six's unsaturated fatty acids found in plants. So the
thought came to our mind, what if we put people
on a plant based diet. What if we exclude the
(25:21):
animal products, what would happen to this diabetes signature in
the salmonmbranes. So for half a year we put people
on a plant based diet, or they followed carbohydrate restricted diet,
counting calories, counting carbohydrates, and for the first three months
(25:44):
they were on a diet only and for the subsequent
three months they were also on an exercise program. And
what we found out was really fascinating. There was a
clear difference between the groups. There was not much of
a change in the metabolic signature on the cell membranes
(26:05):
on the portion control diet, but on the plant based
diet the diabetes signature was basically erased because from all
the plants, people were now eating more of the lino
like acid, and so that proportion increased in the cell membranes.
(26:28):
And this increase in lino like acid in the cell
membranes was also associated with increased insulin sensitivity and loss
of fat, specifically the visceral fat around the inner organs,
which is the metabolically most dangerous. So the plant based
diet worked as a magic eraser on the diabetes signature
(26:51):
on the cell membranes, which is pretty cool and fascinating.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yeah, it's so amazing. You know, sometimes when I speak
with haitians or audiences, you know, I say, just look
at the saturated fat. You know, the animal fat or
the butter or whatever tends to be solid at room temperature.
Those polyunsaturated fats tend to be liquid. Well, that's just
what happens to your cells when those membranes get more rigid.
You could tell us what happens as far as those
(27:16):
insulin receptors. Is that good or bad if you're eating
these fats that make your membranes more rigid.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, if you eat a lot of saturated fat, particularly
from the animal foods, then your cell membranes will become
more rigid, which has far reaching consequences for insulin signaling
because the insulin receptor is embedded in the cell membrane.
So now your cell membranes are more rigid, the insulin
(27:44):
receptor is not working. Well, it's like ajammed door lock.
And you know that's actually the basis of the insulin resistance. Now,
if you swap the fat and if you now go
for the one that are in plants. All of a sudden,
the biochemistry of the cell membrane changes also, it becomes
(28:08):
more fluid, and now the insulin receptor will be working
much better, so you will become more insulin sensitive, which
means that insulin, which is the hormone that just pushes
glucose inside the cells so that all the cells have
enough energy. And now everything is working well and your
(28:31):
metabolism is faster.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
This is amazing stuff. And for those of you listening
from Indian country, you're saying, well, this doesn't sound like
a native diet. We're going to talk a bit about
that because native wisdom actually points in this direction. We're
not saying necessarily a vegan diet, but definitely going in
that direction. We're going to talk about that in our
next segment on doctor David Droz, doctor Hanna Khaliova. She
will be staying by. I encourage you to do the same.
(28:55):
More coming up right after.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
This American, Indian and Alaska Native Living will continue in
a moment. If you have questions or comments about today's
pre recorded broadcast, please contact us on the web at
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(29:18):
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Speaker 1 (31:29):
You're listening to doctor David Deurouz on American Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seventy five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Deroz.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Welcome back to our second half of today's edition of
American Indian and Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor David Deurose,
Doctor Hana Khalijova is my guest. She heads up research
initiatives for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine based in Washington.
Speaker 8 (32:03):
D C.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
If you've not been with us from the top of
the hour, Hanna's roots hail from the former Czechoslovakia, now
the Czech Republic, and she's been bringing her talents and
her enthusiasm for preventive medicine here to the United States.
But her influence is being felt around the world. Really,
I say that, Hannah, because you publish in top tiered
(32:25):
medical journals. I mean, people have seen your research and
very significant places. So we really appreciate what you've been doing.
And we're so thankful you've taken some time to join
us today.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Thank you so much for your kind words, David.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And it's my joy and it's my pleasure.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
It brings me a lot of joy to help so
many people around the world.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Now, one of the things that I promised my audience
we talk about is this native connection. And you and
I were speaking off air about a book that was
written some years ago that was entitled Diabetes as a
Disease of Civilization, and it looked a lot at indigenous practices,
including practices of Native Americans with a Native researchers talking
(33:06):
about basically how there was no diabetes in Indian country
prior to European contact, and how Native Americans throughout the
country largely and I know we have a huge listening
audience throughout the US into Hawaii and Alaska, and of
course there are some tribes that didn't have a huge
agricultural base, but many of them, many many tribes, even
(33:28):
in the desert southwest, the Hocme peoples that are the
predecessors of the Tahana atoms and the Pima peoples irrigating
huge tracts of land and what's now the Sonoran Desert.
So it's just really amazing the history tell us a
little bit about kind of this native wisdom, because whether
you go to the southwest, whether you go to the northeast,
(33:50):
we hear about these three Sisters. I know you've had
as an organization, you've collaborated some with some tribes in
helping them reclaim this kind of I want to say,
lost heritage in some places, people with Native roots, they're
in urban areas, they're eating just like the Europeans that
they're around. Give us some insight into why it's so
(34:10):
important to reconnect with the three sisters, important.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
For everybody to understand their roots.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
And we find that all the native diets, you know,
are pretty healthy. They usually emphasize a grain and a
legiume and some kind of vegetable. So, you know, in
this case, the three sisters are the corn and the
squash and the beans. And what's amazing about it, they
(34:38):
grow together in a harmony. They help each other out.
So growing them together is much more effective than growing
them separately. And so if you grow them together, why
wouldn't you harvest them together and eat them together?
Speaker 7 (34:54):
Right?
Speaker 4 (34:55):
And we find that a similar concept is found around
the world, you know, like for example, people in Mexico
they may eat corn and beans, you know, the corn
tortillas and beans and veggies. So it's a similar concept.
And we find that this combination of foods is the
(35:17):
most nutritious. And you know, it's basically we see around
the whole world that people the traditional diets just emphasize
a whole grain, a legume and the vegetable.
Speaker 2 (35:33):
So some of my listeners, Hana, they are saying, Okay, well,
I hear some of what this researcher is saying. But
I'm still going to have some fish and some wild game.
I mean, this is part of my cultural heritage. You
don't necessarily tell people they have to leave off all
the animal products to get benefit.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Correct, That's completely up to them what specific diet they
want to adopt. But you know, in deciding what you
want to eat, it really helps to know what research.
And the research shows that the less animal products you eat,
the better off you will be because plants are just amazing.
They give us so many antioxidants and fiber. They're alkalin
(36:14):
compared with animal foods, so they will help you with
your pH to turn it more alkaline and help you
avoid all the chronic diseases such as cardiovascular disease and
cancer and diabetes. So the more plants you eat and
the less animal products, the leaner you will be, the
(36:35):
better for your metabolism and the lower the risk of
your chronic disease.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Well, now I'm going to get into some touchy areas here,
doctor Khaliova, because folks, if they know your research, you've
not only been telling people, well, some people would say
if they're not if they don't like you, and so
you're trying to take away all my good foods. You're
trying to take away my animal products. But then some
of your research suggesting that I can't eat as much
(37:01):
as I want, you know, times you're trying to restrict
when I eat. We want to talk a little bit
about that. And as they start listening to the stuff
that you're talking about, they're saying, you know, maybe you're
not gonna have diabetes, but I'm going to be depressed.
I'm going to be I mean, this is terrible the
kind of things you're talking about. Who cares if you
don't have diabetes? Do we know anything about the mental
effects of some of the things you're recommending. Are people
(37:24):
getting depressed, discouraged, or you know, suicide rates go up
when people follow these approaches.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
The mental health issues are so important in our country.
It turns out that people who are overweight have an
over fifty percent higher risk of developing depression and vice versa.
People with depression have a more than fifty percent higher
risk of being overweight. And so what's the way out
(37:52):
If we change the diet, then we see that people's
moods really react quickly. In our studies, we look at
mental health aspects, We look at quality of life, depressive symptoms,
feelings of hunger, and stuff like that. And we find
that on a plentised diet, people report less feelings of
(38:14):
depression and they feel a better quality of life. So
that's huge because now we're kind of breaking the vicious
cycle and now we're finally getting somewhere. If you feel better,
you will not be as compelled to eating those unhealthy
foods that are not good for you. You will be
(38:35):
more likely to stick to your diet plan that emphasizes
the foods that are good for your health. Now you
increase willpower. Now you have a system in place. Now
we can create a group support for these people. We
usually we work with groups in our research studies. We
(38:57):
have a weekly class for roughly fifteen to twenty people
in one class where they can just share their experiences,
their successes and challenges. And it's actually encouraging to see that.
You know, most people go through similar challenges as I do.
That it's nothing unusual, and you know, they encourage each other,
(39:19):
they help problems solve each other, and you know, we
build a healthy community that way.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
We got to wait into this meal timing issue, and
I'm interested in it because of some of the accounts
that I've read throughout Indian country where First nation peoples,
it seems, you know, you'll read some accounts from Europeans
who encountered Native Americans early on, and they talk about
their temperance. They wouldn't overeat, they wouldn't typically eat late
(39:47):
in the day, and some of the accounts. Is there
really something to the meal timing. I know you've looked
at it, but is this real that if we look
at the time that we're eating, it can make a
big difference in our health.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
This is a fascinating topic and I studied this topic
in lom Linda, California, in one of the Blue zones
where people lived the longest and are the healthiest on Earth.
And we looked at meal timing and frequency, how many
meals people were eating and when they were eating, and
how they were gaining weight over time, or if they
(40:20):
were gaining weight at all, And what we found was
pretty fascinating. We found that compared with eating three meals
a day breakfast, lunch, and dinner, those who ate some
snacks at least one snack a day, those people's BMI
was increasing over time. So compared with three meals a day,
(40:43):
snacking was just not good for their weight management. There
was a large group of people, though, who were consuming
only two meals a day breakfast and lunch, and those
were leaner than people who consumed three meals a day.
And we also found that eating the largest meal as
(41:05):
breakfast was most beneficial for the waistline. People who are
consuming the largest meal in the morning were better off
in terms of weight management compared to those who ate
the largest meal as lunch, and those who ate dinner
as the largest meal were the worst of compared, you know,
(41:25):
like in terms of weight management.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Well, we talked a little bit about the mental health
effects of food choices, but what about the meal timing.
I mean, do people get depressed discouraged when they're not
able to just eat throughout the day.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
It turns out that restricting your meal intake and making
a system in your meal intake is very beneficial for
our mental health. We put it to the test in
a randomized clinical trial where we had over fifty people
with type two diabetes and they either followed six small
(42:01):
meals during the day or two meals a day breakfast
and lunch for twelve weeks, and after twelve weeks, they
switched over to the opposite dietary intervention, so each participant
tried both of these approaches on themselves. What we found
was really fascinating. People lost fifty percent more weight on
(42:22):
the two meals a day, even though the calories were
the same, you know, the diet was the same. They
lost more liver fat, their insolent sensitivity increased more, and
what was really fascinating was that they reported less depressive symptoms,
so their mood improved. And the kicker is that they
(42:47):
felt less hungry than on the six meals a day,
which is the opposite of what people were expecting in
the beginning of the study. In the beginning, people were like, Doug,
I don't know if I can do the diet. You know,
two meals a day. That sounds like I'll be starving
in the evening. I don't know if I can do this.
And I told them, well, you give it a try
(43:08):
for a week, you know, and if it's not working,
then it's on me. Don't worry about it. And after
only three days people usually adopted the new system and
they started loving it, you know, all of a sudden,
they were like, what I can eat only two meals?
A day. I feel full, I feel happy, I feel satisfied.
(43:30):
There's less prep work. You know, it makes my life easier.
I save on groceries. I mean, all of these benefits.
So most people actually decided to stick with it for
life after the study was over.
Speaker 2 (43:44):
It is a powerful program. I tried it out years
ago and I haven't gone back, so I know, it
really is amazing. And you think, you know, people see
you in the evening and they're saying, like, why are
you not eating? You know, and aren't you tempted? Because
I'll be sitting people who are eating, and I'll say, no,
it actually makes me feel worse if I eat. So
(44:05):
you know, your body is really pretty amazing how it
can adapt, and just so amazing to see the research
that you've basically, you know, done this, these studies where
you know, many of us have maybe tried some of
these things over the years or have used them with
our patients, and you and your team have been putting
out some really solid data showing that this stuff really works.
It's not just what we call anecdotal evidence, you know,
(44:27):
not just stories from somebody or somebody's grandmother, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
That's right.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
It's all evidence based, so.
Speaker 2 (44:35):
Do me a favor and before we have to step
away briefly again, we'll come back with the final segment,
but give us one more time. How we can tap
into some of the great stuff you're putting together with
the Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
You can find all our research on our website PCRM
dot org and you can find many recipes. You can
find many resources, even Native American resources. So go to
PCRN dot org to learn more.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Wonderful you stay tuned with us if you're tuning in today,
because doctor Hana Khalijova will stay by I will too.
We've got a final segment coming up, some important material
that you don't want to miss. Stay tuned. I'm doctor Deroz.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Today's broadcast has been prerecorded. However, if you have questions
about today's show or would like further information, please call
one eight hundred seven to seven five hope. That's one
eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three. We'll
be right back after this.
Speaker 12 (45:41):
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You can't just close the door on earthquakes, floods or
hurricanes and hope they go away. That's why it's important
to make a plan now. Ready dot gov slash plan
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To mastor shows up at your doorstep.
Speaker 12 (46:02):
You'll be ready. Visit ready dot gov slash plan and
make a plan today. Brought to you by FEMA and
the AD Council.
Speaker 9 (46:10):
I'm just texting him that I'm just posting a story,
just changing the song.
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I'm just no.
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When it comes to distracted driving, just don't.
Speaker 13 (46:18):
Sending a text takes your eyes off the road for
just five seconds, but in that time, your car can
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Any distracted driving just isn't worth it.
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Visit stop texts, Stop rex dot org.
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A message brought to you by the National Highway Traffic
Safety Administration, Project yellow Light and the AD Council.
Speaker 7 (46:40):
What is a number story?
Speaker 8 (46:42):
My number story started with fear and lack of support,
and it has led me to be there for others.
Speaker 7 (46:47):
A number story begins in our childhood with aces adverse
childhood experiences.
Speaker 13 (46:53):
My number story begins with the separation from my father
and the emotional abandonment from my mother and leads to
me being a role model to not only myself well
but those around me by becoming a person that wasn't
there for me.
Speaker 7 (47:03):
Aces are so common two thirds of us have one.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
My number story begins with drug abuse and homelessness and
leads to realizing that I can live life by my
own standards.
Speaker 7 (47:13):
A study found the more aces, the more likely we
may experience a host of serious health effects, physical and mental.
But that doesn't need to be the case. Your race
number is simply an entry point to your own story.
Where it leads is up to you.
Speaker 5 (47:28):
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Take control of where your number story leads. At numberstory
dot org.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
You're listening to doctor David Derouse on American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. Your comments and questions are welcome. Call
now at one eight hundred seven seven five hope. That's
one eight hundred seven seven five four six seventy three.
Here again is doctor Derouse.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Welcome back for our final segment of American, Indian and
Alaska Native Living. I'm doctor David Deuroz, doctor Hanna Khalijova,
my guests, She's joining us from Washington, d C. From
the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. Hannah, We've been speaking
about a lot of very practical things that connect us
with some of I would say wisdom that's throughout Indian country.
(48:23):
Maybe people wouldn't have necessarily sized it up that way
on some of these topics. But one of the things
that I mentioned earlier on from my encounters throughout First
Nation peoples on this continent is this appreciation that many
of the First Europeans had for the temperance, the self
(48:43):
control that Native Americans seem to have when it came
to eating. This is a really hot topic today because
we hear a lot of people talking about food addictions.
We hear other people saying, oh, that's nonsense, you can't
be addicted to food. Can you help us sort through
that topic a little bit.
Speaker 3 (49:00):
Yeah, this is an important question.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
You know, when you look at brain scans, then when
you eat a meal, there's a physiologic reaction and your
reward circuits in the brain will just light up. The
brighter the color, the more active, and there will be
a lot of red and orange and yellow when you
eat a meal. That means that you're experiencing pleasure. And satisfaction,
(49:25):
which is a physiologic reaction. Now, when you look at
a brain scan of a person who's addicted to let's
say cocaine, then the response will be blunted and these
reward circuits will not shine as brightly. They will be
more green, there will be hardly any yellow, and there
(49:48):
will be no.
Speaker 3 (49:49):
Red or orange.
Speaker 4 (49:51):
So that response is blunted, which means that the person
is not experiencing as much pleasure. Now, when you look
at people who struggle with being overweight and look at
their brain scans, what do their brain scans look like?
Is it more like a healthy person or is it
more like an addicted person. It turns out that the
(50:13):
image is very similar to any other addictions. The reward
circuits are just blunted. The response is blunted. The colors
are just like green, hardly any warm colors. So these
people are also experiencing less pleasure, which drives them to
(50:35):
select the foods that will give them like a higher stimuli.
Speaker 2 (50:40):
So let me see if I understand this correctly. So
what I hear you saying is, if let's say I
got significant pleasure out of eating a nice apple, if
you gave that to someone who was prone to food addictions,
they may not have much of a response to that.
Am I applying that right? Or am I missing something
(51:00):
that's exactly right?
Speaker 3 (51:01):
Yes?
Speaker 2 (51:03):
And so instead of trying to regain an appreciation for
simple things, the brain tries to look for kind of
highly maybe even addictive things that will give them more
of a dopamine rush, if we can use that term exactly.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
The brain is looking for something that will give it
like the sense of satisfaction and pleasure, which it didn't
find in the simple foods. And when we look at
which foods are the most addictive, there's a survey of
almost four hundred people that ask people, you know, which
foods do you feel like you're losing control of and
(51:45):
you have hard time getting away from? And the top
five foods are Number five is ice cream, Number four
is cookies, Number three potato chips, Number two chocolate, and
number one was pizza. And it was the cheese in
pizza that's the most addictive substance. And what do all
(52:10):
these foods have in common. They're super high in fat,
but the fat is also mixed with either sugar or salt,
so that increases the addictive properties of that particular food. Now,
is it possible to get away from those food addictions?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
That's the question.
Speaker 4 (52:30):
Yeah, we're up against food addictions in most of our
studies that we start. You know, mostly when people consider
going on a vegan diet, they're like, I like to
do it, but I don't know how I can live
without cheese. I don't know how I can, you know,
not eat all these all these fatty foods. I'd like to,
(52:51):
but you know, I'm I'm you know, my habits are
in this way and I like them and I have
a relationship with and so the approaches that we found
most effective are just cutting out all these foods immediately
(53:12):
and all of a sudden. Some people believe that, you know,
gradual steps may be effective. We find the opposite. We
find that just cutting out all these foods is really
helpful because now you are forced to search for different
foods and if you don't have them in the house,
if the only dessert you have in the house is
(53:34):
an apple, guess what's going to be for dessert? You know,
you will eat an apple.
Speaker 3 (53:39):
That's easy.
Speaker 4 (53:41):
And once you follow through for the first few weeks,
after three weeks, it becomes much easier you now develop,
You've developed new habits, You've discovered new foods because you
were forced to. You know, you said goodbye to some
of your favorite foods. Now you had to try new recipes,
(54:02):
try new meals, and try new desserts that would be
healthy and good for you.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
So, has anyone actually done brain scans after someone goes
through a process like this? Does the brain respond better
to these simple foods?
Speaker 4 (54:17):
This would be a fascinating study. We haven't done a
brain scan study just yet, but this is something that
I'd love to do.
Speaker 2 (54:25):
Well. We're keeping our ears to the ground, so to speak,
to see what comes out, because you guys keep doing
all kinds of very interesting stuff. We're really in the
home stretch of today's broadcast, but I don't want to
get too far away from this subject of food addictions
because the presentation I heard you giving out in California,
you gave a number of practical things that people could
do to kind of rewire their brains or break free
(54:47):
of these addictions. So I heard the first one right now,
and that is make a clean break with the problem foods.
Are there some other things that would be important in
that process?
Speaker 3 (54:57):
Absolutely?
Speaker 4 (54:58):
Number two is reduce your exposure. Don't have them in
your house. If you need to avoid the aisles in
the grocery store, you know, do whatever you can do
to reduce your exposure. Just you know, pretend they don't
exist for at least a certain period of time, and
that will force you to develop new habits, expand your
(55:21):
portfolio of your favorite foods, but also other favorite activities.
What addictions do is that they're narrowing down our focus
and our world. You know. So let's say you're sad
and you're automatically reaching out for potato chips, or you
feel frustrated and you're grabbing a cookie. That's like a shortcut.
(55:47):
We need to completely like rewire the brain. So now
you need to also recognize the triggers that make you
reach out to all those foods, and you need to
develop new habits. So let's say you were said and
instead of eating potato chips, you go for a walk.
(56:08):
You develop a new habit. When you feel isolated, instead
of grabbing a cookie, you call a friend or visit
a friend.
Speaker 2 (56:17):
I love so much what you're saying, because a lot
of people, when they're trying to break a habit, they say, well,
I don't know what I'm going to do when I'm angry,
but I'm just not going to eat cookies. And all
they're thinking about is not eating cookies. But I love
what you're saying. You've got to put something positive in
the place of it. And I've told people, yeah, it
may not be the same. You may feel better initially
with the cookie than going for a walk, but like
(56:40):
you said, doctor Khaliova, you're helping people to rewire their brains,
doing something that's going to actually help them physiologically right
rather than hurting them.
Speaker 4 (56:49):
And most importantly, what's on the other side. On the
other side of this, there's freedom, freedom from the addiction.
So yes, it may feel challenging at times, but it's
worth it, and you know it'll it won't take long.
You know it won't take forever. You will eventually find
(57:09):
new pleasures and new joys in life, and they will
be different, but they will make you free from that
addiction that you've formed originally.
Speaker 2 (57:20):
Well, unfortunately, you have a lot more wisdom and insights
that we could tap into in just a single hour show,
So we have to wind down. But before we do,
there's folks that maybe want to connect with your research.
They want to connect with others at PCRM who are
doing things, or maybe even the worldwide literature that you
have access to at your website. Tell us one more
(57:41):
time how we can connect with you and your team.
Speaker 4 (57:44):
The best place to find more our research is PCRM
dot org, which is our website, and you can find
plenty of recipes, a free twenty one day vegan pigstart,
and resources to help you with different healthcare.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
You know, I love that you guys have made this
easy for people say, Hey, you just want to try
what doctor Khaliova has been speaking about. You don't know
how to go about it. Three weeks, you've got full
recipes everything in the twenty one day kickstart. Someone can
just go to PCRM dot org and they'll find it
easily correct. That's right, Hannah. I'm excited about what you're doing.
(58:21):
Thank you so much for pulling away and sharing your
insights with us, and I would say really kind of
undergirding a lot of the wisdom that's been out there
with indigenous peoples for centuries. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (58:31):
Thank you for all your wonderful work, David, and thanks for.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
Having me and to each one of you who've joined
us today. Thank you for investing in your health by
joining us on today's edition of American, Indian and Alaska
Native Living. For all of us, I'm doctor David Durose,
wishing you the very best of health.
Speaker 5 (58:51):
Native Voice one the Native American radio network
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