Americas_Criminologist_09_09_25 Guest Rob Chadwick

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Col steal Shots came Light just trusting him, A Shadows
Secrets Lie, the Last Scale, consqumologist co Sales of the
Law Inaclosy cackles, a crime Break and Change, Bruce.

Speaker 2 (00:32):
Start Fame, And here's America's criminologist, doctor Kerry Myers.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
All right, all right, all right, my friends, welcome to
the show. In my book The Advent of Feral Man,
I discussed the wilding of humans and the changes in
the criminal archetype that has occurred in the last decade
or so. For my years on the job as a
state trooper, special agent and then sheriff of a major
county in America, I understand cause and effect firsthand. As

(01:02):
an applied criminologist, I try to put all those things
together for the public to be able to see what
is really going on in America today. So feel free
to view my substack page at doctor Curriemeiers dot substack
dot com to read all my published works and see
my streamed radio shows, interviews, podcasts, and we are streaming

(01:23):
for on all your favorite platforms, So feel free to
look me up if you want to drive down the
road and download something and listen to me later in
the show. We got a great show for you today.
But hey, kids, do you like beef? Of course you do.
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their website at Howard waccu dot com. Let's get right

(02:28):
to it, folks. Here's my riff for the day. Active
shooter events are no longer rare isolated tragedies. They become
a reoccurring crisis that has reshaped the American life, work,
and worship, and even send their children to school. The
FBI reports that these incidents have steadily increased over the

(02:49):
past decades, and we've seen the unfolded classrooms, shopping centers,
houses of worship, and workplaces. The speed and randomness of
these attacks may make them uniquely terrifying. What's worse, these
events don't just strike at individuals, they rip the very
fabric of community life. School shooting paralysizes and a generation

(03:15):
of children with fear. An attack and a church shakes
shakes families, faith and the sanctity of their worship. A
massacre in a grocery store makes us look over our
shoulder in a place that we once thought was safe.
The question we have is simple, how do we prepare,
how do we train, and how do we ensure that

(03:36):
law enforcement, community leaders, and everyday citizens are ready when
the unthinkable becomes reality. The truth is prevention and response,
our learned skills, not luck. It takes leadership, experience in
training to bridge that gap beyond chaos and survival. I
know I've survived an active shooter event, was in the

(03:58):
nineteen ninety three Federal building shootout bombing incident in Topeka, Kansas,
and I'm very blessed to have lived through that. My
guest today is a man who has spent his career
answering these very questions. He's not only trained America's top
tactical operators, but he has also shaped how we respond

(04:18):
as a nation to the active shooter threat. He knows
what works, what doesn't, and what we still need to
do to protect our families in our communities. Rob Chadwick
recently retired as the head of the Tactical Training Unit
at Quantico for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, where he
served as the principal Tactical instruction instructor excuse me. For

(04:40):
the FBI. He was responsible for ensuring the operational readiness
of all FBI agents around the world and led the
Bureau's National Active Shooter Response training program. Rob has served
on protective details for seven US Attorney Generals and four
FBI Directors, in including as the Special Agent charge for

(05:02):
Attorney General William Barr. He was a SWAT sniper team leader,
a tactical medic, an international trainer, even representing the United
States as a keynote speaker at the twenty seventeen International
Active Shooter Preparedness Conference in Prague. After responding to the

(05:22):
Mother Emmanuel Ame Church attack, in Charleston. He authored the
FBI's Active Shooter Awareness and Preparation for Houses of Worship.
Before the FBI, Rob served in the Special Operations Division
of the Fairfax County Police Department. He's a man who's
lived this fight and trained others to meet it head on.

(05:44):
And he also has a book out there which I
have been fortunate to read, as he gave me an
advanced copy. The book is called The Practical Guide to
Personal Security, and I recommend everybody pick this up, keep
it be able to look at it from time to time.
I'm and reinforce how you should respond. Rob, thanks for
coming on the show. Appreciate it, Doctor Myers. It's an honor.

(06:07):
Appreciate the opportunity to be on with you. Oh you
bet tell us about your recent book and the genesis
behind you decided to write it.

Speaker 4 (06:15):
Well, I appreciate that. Yeah, as you just mentioned, thank you.
It's The Practical Guide to Personal Security, and it's something
that I've had in my mind for several years now.
You know, well before I retired from the FBI a
few years back, and you know, I had several sort
of critical or key moments in my life. Epiphanies if

(06:36):
you will. And the first one was when I was
a young man and I was very close lived close
to my grandparents, and my grandfather and grandmother were keep
figured my life. And my grandfather was just a hero
to me. And I saw, you know, the two of
them had a very active lifestyle or you know, go

(06:56):
up and down the East coast, camping and you know,
just doing all kinds of things. And unfortunately he took
ill and died at a fairly early age, widowing my grandmother.
And what I saw, and you know, as a young teenager,
you're not fully aware of what's happening there, but I
noticed it changed her dramatically, not just from being sad
and lonely, but I could tell later on she's frightened.

(07:20):
You know, this is a woman who has now lost
protector and lost her sense of security and and just
that vitality for life was robbed. And you know, luckily
I had several members of my family who were in
law enforce. An uncle who lived right down the street
from her, was a policeman for a lot of years
and was a sort of a hero to me, and

(07:41):
and you know, long story short, he gave her and
trained her in the very simple use of a firearm,
right and and just having that tool available was something
that transformed her life. Knowing that, you know, in an
extreme emergency, I had I can do something. I can
protect myself somehow. And you know, I'm not saying she

(08:03):
carried that thing out of the house. You know, she
was your classic grandma, sort of little old lady, but
she had that tool available, and so that really spoke
a lot to me. And then fast forward, you know,
years decades, and my youngest daughter stayed at home during
COVID was I was away at Quantico. We lived in
South Carolina at the time, and she wanted to finish school,

(08:26):
and of course COVID hits and she has to finish
her high school career from the couch at home. And
we lived relatively rural in South Carolina, and knew that,
you know, law enforcement response times were pretty slow, although
I was very friendly with the sheriff and the chief
and locally, I knew it would be ten or fifteen
minutes before that first officer could get there. And so

(08:47):
I could tell that, you know, her older brother had
been captain of the wrestling team, is now a marine
captain somewhere. You know, deployed overseas, but him leaving and
her being the only one there at on by herself
that changed her as well. Right she she had sort
of fancied herself a Catnus Everdeen type of character, right

(09:07):
from the Hunger Games type of movies. But I noticed
that there was again a little bit of that joy
of life had been robbed. And I had never forced
firearms or anything like that on her, but asked her
one day when I was hey, listen, kid, you know,
I know you're worried. Would you like to learn how
to protect yourself with a gun? And she said, yeah, uh,

(09:29):
And so we went to the range, spent hours, you know,
familiarizing herself. And the bottom line is I saw a
weight lifted off of her shoulders knowing that she had
access to a tool and a plan to protect herself.
And that I call it the tyranny of fear. And
there are millions of Americans, young, old, every walk of

(09:52):
life that are being robbed of the joy of life
because they don't know how best to protect themselves. And
they see what's going on and society right now as
clear as day, and they worry, right, they worry, will
will the police be there in time to protect me.
And in most cases the answer is no. And I'm
a huge law enforcement you know, it's been thirty years
in law enforcement. I have relatives still in the job.

(10:16):
The fact is, in the last five years, law enforcement
response times have doubled on average in the United States.
And even if there were a policeman or a sheriff's
deputy down the street from you, you've still got to
protect yourself. You're on your own, so to speak, for
some amount of time, and what are you going to do?
And so training people, empowering them with just some skills,

(10:38):
some knowledge, some confidence and competence is really just such
a gift. And that's why I became an instructor, and
that's why I do what I do, and that's why
I wrote the book, is to provide something with as
little bravado as I possibly. You know, I didn't talk
a very little bit about myself, almost almost none, because

(10:58):
it doesn't matter what people want to know or just
give me the facts. What matters what is legal? How
do I keep myself out out of danger? And then
how do I keep myself out of legal trouble? Uh?
Dispel some of those myths and so It's been really rewarding.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
You know.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
I'm sure we'll talk a little bit more later about
what I'm doing now with the USCCA, But that's the
reason I'm there, is to help Americans understand uh, what
to do, when to do it, and then how to survive,
you know, the legal landscape that is very misunderstood by most. Well.

Speaker 3 (11:29):
One of the reasons I was excited to bring you
on the show is that, and you hit on it,
is the fact that people are unaware and haven't been trained,
maybe haven't been formed correctly. It could be because of
the high divorce rate and father listeners, fatherlesseners in America,
those kinds of things that you know, a dad may

(11:50):
may train you in some of these things. We there
for a long time. We you know, the we didn't
have as many people that were in the military that
could come back can help train their people. If you
look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, it's food and water
is the baseline of what you need. But right above that,
just right above that is safety. It's about the ability

(12:13):
to build a shelter and defend yourself and all these
other things are unimportant, and it's so important for people
to be able to understand it, So being able to
read your book, being able to look at other books,
you know, like, for instance, the Marine Guide to Survival,
you know, as an excellent book that you might be

(12:34):
able to pick up, pick up somewhere where it can
give you some things that you can do to be
able to survive and understand how things work and how
to get from point A to point B. And we
don't practice enough situational awareness anymore. We're so distracted with
technology and everything else that's going on. A lot of
things can be prevented just by being situationally aware in

(12:57):
our surroundings. Do you kind of feel that's the case too,
No question about it.

Speaker 4 (13:03):
And you know, the entire if I had to boil
that entire book down, the entire thing is about convincing
people one it does and can happen to you. Right,
this evil does exist. We saw what you know would
just happened in Charlotte recently, horrific attack there. We'll talk
more about later, but the first acknowledgment must be this

(13:26):
does happen, it could happen to me. And then the
understanding of what is most critical in an emergency situation,
what's important now? And what's important. The most important element
in any crisis is time. And that's why that situational
awareness that you talked about right, remaining aware, using your
senses to gather information to allow you to act in

(13:52):
some meaningful, hopefully effective way. Without it all the training
in the world, all the weapons, all the tactics, if
you are taken by surprise, you were almost certainly going
to lose that engagement. So I people all the time. Listen,
you know, I spent a lot of time on protection details,
and there's a lot of movies made about all that.

(14:12):
Hollywood glamorizes that. The fact of the matter is if
if we were out on a mission, on a protection
detail and we had to use our weapons for any reason,
that mission had failed. By definition, we had failed. Right,
Our mission was to spot and assess and avoid any
potential trouble long before it ever had an opportunity to

(14:34):
harm us or you know, the principle that we were protecting.
So that's the that's the mission of every person out
there who was responsible for themselves or a loved one,
is to just steer clear the danger. You know, the
discretion is the better part of valor. Live to fight
another day if you have to. Hopefully you never have
to fight, but you know, using your eyes and your
ears and you know again, you know, getting back to

(14:56):
that situation we were talking about before the show, and Charlotte,
you know, I don't want to fault this young lady.
She did nothing to deserve what happened to her. Absolutely,
But the fact of the matter is, there are dangerous
predators out there, and you cannot allow yourself to just
assume that you're safe. You must assume, especially in public,
especially in public transportation, the great crossroads of humanity, there

(15:20):
could be predators within inches of you, and so to
rob yourself of the eyes. She had her face buried
in her phone ears, she had both ears plugged with
ear and just completely situationally unaware there were open seats.
I didn't see the entire layout of that train. But
you know, when you're in public, you have to be

(15:41):
on guard. You have to have your head on a swivel.
I'm not a big fan of the AirPods in public, right.
I like those bone conduction type of hearing devices that
allow your ears to remain but you know what that's
for another time. When you're in public transportation, you need
to be paying attention to what's happening around you again,
to give you time to react, to offer some meaningful

(16:02):
resistance or evasion hopefully if at all possible.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
So you started with Fairfax County Police, then you went
on to the FBI, and every little boy understands, you know,
the desire to be an FBI agent someday. You know,
that's one of the finest law enforcement agencies in the world.
Went through a rough patch starting in my opinion, at
least starting in about two thousand and eight or so,
when they kind of got off the rails on what

(16:28):
they wanted to do. But we may be seeing it
come back now and trying to you know, hire the
right kind of people and do the right kind of things.
I'm curious what drew you to the to the tactical side,
because that's a very unique position to take, and it's
also a pretty elite where you've got to be in
really good shape, you've got to stay in shape, and

(16:49):
you're also training others. So what what kind of drew
you into that passion of being involved in the in
the tactical and HRWT.

Speaker 4 (16:58):
Well, the early on it was obviously sort of that
aspirational Hey, these guys look great. They're kind of you know,
the they're elevated and they're celebrated, and they should be
and and so I wanted to be part of that.
But once I got into the FBI, I've quickly realized
that that and it's it's amazing how often this is
repeated across all fifty six field offices in the in

(17:20):
the bureau, typically speaking, your best case agents are your
swad agents. These are overachievers, These are go getters, these
are you know, uh you call them sort of alpha
type people. Uh and and so wanting to be part
of that group of people. I also missed the old
sort of camaraderie I had from my police squad days

(17:40):
and the canine squad days. You know, the FBI is
is sort of a single operator if you're if you're
a case agent, you've got your cases. Sure you'll go
help others on a raid or something, but generally it's
an individual type of mission. I was really drawn to
the camaraderie and the and the sort of a spree
de corps of the FBI swat you know world. And

(18:00):
it didn't hurt that my uncle, so I had Uncle
Horace Muburn growing up. He was, you know, a little
bit older than my dad. Again, one of these guys
that I just sort of revered. He had been a
Green Beret during Vietnam, saw a lot of combat with
the mont Yards. When Vietnam ended, he came home and
you know, got his accounting degree and went to work

(18:21):
for the FBI, And then in nineteen eighty three he
helped found the Hostage Rescue Team. Right so, he and
Danny Colson, who was the original commander. Horace was was
their first what they call their intel guy. Horace was
not an operator. He was a little bit too long
in the tooth at that point. But you know, with
his Green Break background, the guy kept himself in immaculate

(18:43):
shape his entire career. You know, I always admired what
he did. As a matter of fact, when I was
in the police department getting ready to go to the
FBI academy, I tried to run with Horace, And this
guy was at the end of his career. He could
run me into the dirt until the day and long
after he retired, I guarantee. It so just that just

(19:04):
that aspirational and that camaraderie, common mission coming together you know,
the training was just outstanding. You know, I was telling
your producer earlier, there were there were many many days
in the FBI that I could not believe they're paying
me to do this job. And you know, just the
opportunity to serve your country in that capacity was amazing.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, I felt the same way. I was ten years
on our as a tactical operator for the Kansas Fearer
of Investigation. And as you know, Kansas is a very
small state. You know, eighty percent of the agency is
probably eighty five percent or less than fifteen twenty person departments.
So we were a very busy team because there you know,
we had to go support local agencies to be able

(19:47):
to do that, and it was the camaraderie that to
this day, it's it's what I remember the most and
the best is those those missions that we went out
in the training that we did all the time, and
those kinds of things. So how do you approach preparing
agents for scenarios that they hope to never face, But

(20:08):
you've got to make sure that they stay ready and
understand the threat and stay on the front of their
mind these potential these potential actions that have to be
taken that's a.

Speaker 4 (20:20):
Great question, and one of the things that, you know,
one of the highlights of my career. I finished up
at Quantico, as you mentioned, and so my office and
my unit was at what we call Hogan's Alley, which
is sort of our you know, famous training real world
as real as we can make it training venue where
we put them through all sorts of you know, real
life type of of you know, whether it's a criminal

(20:43):
event or a terrorist attack or whatever. But one of
the first things we do with every single class was
have you know, and it's like the first week when
they get there, it's called reality check, all right, and
we bring them into a room. It's very somber, as
well it should be. And I still remember when I
was a brand new agent watching this and then going

(21:05):
as you know, at the very end of my careers,
the unit chief at Quantico, I would go in and
watch the new agent's watching this video. And it's a
series of real life whether it's body cam or surveillance
camera or dash cam videos of real world law enforcement
officers being murdered on camera. Right. And one that sticks

(21:27):
out to me always is Trooper Mark Coats from South
Carolina in nineteen ninety two. He had a struggle with
a guy on the side of the road, and you
could just any law enforcement officer could put himself or
herself in that trooper's shoes, and it's awful. You hear
the you know, just the desperation and knowing this man

(21:47):
has sustained what ultimately was a fatal wound, but just that,
just showing that video. Listen, guys and girls, this could
happen to you. You are now still being into a
role where you may be called upon to either take
a life or lay down your life for your for
your fellow citizen. And invariably we had people leave they say, listen,

(22:11):
it's not for me, and that's exactly what it's for
and I and I absolutely respected that decision, understanding that,
you know what, it's not like I thought it was
on TV. It's not like these n cis or even
FBI Quantico shows. You know, it's it's real, the results,
you know, the danger is real. We lose agents, you know,

(22:32):
not as frequently as frontline responders typically do. The Bureau
has lost relatively few agents over the decades, but we
have lost many, too, far too many, and so we
try to make it as real as possible and interject
real stories and bring you know, people back. Actually had
ed Ralis come back to Quantico. Ed was one of

(22:54):
the guys that was in the Miami shootout, right, that
famous shootout with all the several agents killed, Ben Grogan
and Jerry Dove were killed, and it came back and
talked to our class in a very sober, somber, you know,
realistic way, and that kind of if that doesn't hit you, uh,
you know hard, there's nothing wrong with you. And so

(23:15):
so again we try to make it as very as
seriously as possible at Hogan's Alley and what we call
the Practical Applications Unit.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
What are I'm interested on your take on some of
the most common mistakes that you that you feel are
occurring when preparing for active shooter incidents.

Speaker 4 (23:33):
Well, far and away the most common mistakes, sadly, and
it's almost unbelievably at this point in our society, is
just the assumption that it will never happen here, It
will never happen to me and never have at my school.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (23:46):
That that's the far and away that the worst mistake.
And then two, the the belief that I will rise
to the occasion, or my team will rise to the
occasion rather than fall back on my training. Right, we
know that, and I'm happy to talk more about, you know,
my personal observations that have sort of solidified why I

(24:06):
still do what I do. We know that unless you
have and this is for all human beings, for you know,
you and me as law enforcement people, and all of
your listeners. This is human nature. And let you have
thought about what you would do if suddenly confronted with
an existential crisis. Right, someone breaks in your house, or

(24:28):
someone begins shooting in your office or at church or wherever,
you will almost certainly, almost certainly be overcome by events. Right.
They talk about fight or flight, Well, the other f
that don't typically talk about is freeze. And we see
that over and over and over and over again, which
is exactly why I'm doing what I'm doing today, as
I've seen it firsthand. Unfortunately, human nature is such that

(24:53):
in the face of a sudden existential crisis that you've
never considered, a human being will almost certainly freeze be
overcome by events. And so you know that the mistake
that people make is failing to prepare. That old saying
of you know failing to prepare is preparing to fail,
and that could not be more true in the case

(25:13):
of a workplace violence or targeted violence type of situation.

Speaker 3 (25:18):
You know, one of the things that I thought was
always problematic is the fact of interagency coordination and cooperation
on these big events, whether it's a hostage situation or
there gets to be so many people. There's many times
where a tactical team could be brought in, but if
it's a hostage situation, you may have to actually replace

(25:39):
them with another team. There is a lot of logistics
that goes with with this, this kind of planning. What's
your we have about a minute, what's your quick take
on that importance of interagency coordination cooperation.

Speaker 4 (25:55):
Well, it has to happen beforehand, right, it really doesn't
work well, you know across the hood of a cruiser
at the crisis site. You know, these relationships need to
be built, as you know as a former sheriff, well
ahead of time. The trust needs to be a check
the egos at the door. What can your agency bring
to the table, What can we do and make it
one fight versus you know, a competition for credit that

(26:18):
sort of thing. So, yeah, you know the first thing
is have those conversations, make that fellowship, get that bond
tight with all of your surrounding agencies to understand what
are those capabilities, what are you capable of, what are
you not capable of? And then you know, compliment each other.
No single agency, no single agency can can effectively deal

(26:38):
with a mass shooter incident. I believe you know. It
takes an entire collection of different skill sets and personnel
and that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
You got to take a commercial break and pay some
bills you willing to say for the second segment, my.

Speaker 4 (26:52):
Friend, Oh, absolutely all right.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
We'll be right back with Rob Chadwick, retired FBI agent
and former head of the Tactical Train Unit for the FBI.

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our lives. In my book The Event I Have Been
a Fair Man, I spent a chapter on why crimes occur,

(30:44):
the causal reason for crime. In my opinion, it's the
lack of faith. Family information are the main causal reasons
for that crime. So this one's totally free and it
always will be free. And also, if you wish for
me to speak at your parish or organization on any
of these issues, you can book me through Catholic Speakers
dot com and just look up doctor Curry Myers. I'll

(31:05):
be happy to travel anywhere in the country to come
speak on these issues. So welcome back to America's criminologists.
My guest today is Rob Chadwick, recently retired as the
head of the FBI's Tactical Training Unit stationed there in Quantico.
He led the bureau's National Active shooter Response program. My friends,

(31:25):
that's if you want to read a textbook example of
the dos and don'ts on active shooter. This is an
important information and research that's been compiled by the FBI.
He's served on protective details for seven seven attorney generals
and trained law enforcement agencies around the globe. He's been
a swat sniper, tactical medic, and the author of the

(31:48):
FBI's Active shooter Preparedness Guide for Houses of worship. Rob
brings decades of real world experience into this conversation and
one of the most urgent threats have today. He also
is very involved in the company. Can you go ahead
and let us know about the company that you're currently

(32:08):
involved with in the work that you're doing there.

Speaker 4 (32:11):
Yeah. Thanks. I I am honored to be the principal
training advisor for the U s c A, which is
the United States Concealed Carry Association. That company was formed
a little over twenty years ago to help everyday Americans responsible,
you know, concerned Americans protect what matters, most understand how

(32:32):
to legally lawfully effectively you know, become their their own
first responder. And I don't mean that any any disrespect, Lawn,
but you know, we know that that that people are
going to have to act their own best interest because
law enforcement times or have always been slower than most

(32:52):
people think. You're on your own for more more times
people think. And so the USCCA is a membership organization
and we have close to one hundred thousand members people
just like you and across the country that are concerned rightfully,
rightfully concerned about their safety and security. And so the
membership offers basically three pillars, you know, the education, training, right,

(33:17):
those that educate people about how to lawfully protect yourself, right,
what does it actually mean, what does the law say,
how do you find out about this? How can you
avoid conflict altogether? That's our main mission. And then if
you can't avoid a conflict, if you must use force,
how to do so efftively lawfully and that sort of thing. So,

(33:38):
you know, a training organization as well. We have eight
thousand instructors around the country teaching people everything from concealed
weapon permit you know classes, to situational awareness classes to
medical types of classes. We've actually just partnered with for
the biggest non lethal uh produced you know manufacturers in

(34:00):
the country, so Taser Self Defense ASP ASP BERNA, which
is those non lethal launchers and saber, se b r E,
pepper spray. So I carried all those law enforcement officer
those tools, those non lethal tools to give people some
options in whether it's a non permissive environment. There are
plenty of places you can't legally carry a gun, or

(34:23):
maybe you don't feel comfortable carrying a gun. There are
plenty of people that maybe just aren't ready or never
will be ready to take another human life potentially, but
they want an effective tool to defend themselves. And so
I'm so proud of a partner with these four main
players in the non lethal space to offer people training
on how to use them, what they will and won't do,

(34:45):
all that sort of stuff. And so you know, the
final piece of the USCCA is that as soon as
you join, become a member, you're added to what I
believe is the best self defense liability insurance policy.

Speaker 7 (34:59):
Right.

Speaker 4 (35:00):
So here's the thing. If you're ever involved in a
self defense case, it is almost certainly going to come
with legal entanglements, right, whether it's the police, it could
be a criminal charge, very likely a civil charge. And
so the USCCA is also there to support our members,
as I like to say, for the before, the during,

(35:21):
and then the after of any type of self defense incident.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Let's talk to training for a second. We have something
in common because I've probably done a couple of thousand
threat assessments crime prevention through environmental design, and I've been
a practitioner of that for twenty five years or so,
and I do training into schools wherever it may be.

(35:47):
One of the things that's frustrating to me is that
I would say ninety percent of the people that are
training schools will actually do active training drills with students involved.
I'm against that, and I'll tell you why. I believe
it's a psychological issue and impact on the kids that

(36:08):
they just don't need to see. They need to be
there to go to school, enjoy their day, have fun,
and be in a safe, secure environment. The staff, the
teachers and the staff are the ones that need to
go through the training be trained. I even go to
the end of it. Once I do macro training, I
will visit each student's each teacher's classroom based on the

(36:30):
difference of that classroom, and said, here are the things
that we can do, here's the things that you need
to do while you're in here. And then the other
thing is don't forget about having a medical kit, because
data shows that if you respond quickly with the appropriate
medical care like tourniquets, you can save lives. And the
other ones is some form of self defense. We always

(36:53):
talk about firearms, and as we know, there's going to
be a lot of teachers that just aren't going to
carry firearms or they're prohibited from carry fire in the school.
But there are other things, the wonderful companies you just
mentioned that could be there for teachers to be able
to use. What are your thoughts on the training, especially

(37:15):
of schools, am I off Mark.

Speaker 4 (37:17):
No, You're you're spot on, I tell you, and I've
had exactly the same experience and philosophy. So I also
do school training and it's probably the most rewarding part
of my job. I've worked with hundreds of schools of
every size, imaginable. And you're right, you know, we need
to understand that it is a totally different time, totally

(37:41):
different era from when you and I were kids. So
when you and I use this story quite a bit
to illustrate it, when I was a kid, and I
can vividly remember sitting in the cafeteria one hot days
towards the end of school, you know, getting ready to
get out, and all of a sudden, the power went
out right, and everyone cheered instantly because we we're out
of school, like that's it, We're gone, right.

Speaker 3 (38:03):
And so.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
Contrast that with my daughter who was a middle school
teacher here in South Carolina just two years ago. She
is teaching in her classroom and the power goes out,
just the same scenario. Instead of cheering instantly, every child
in that cafeteria shrieked like they just assume. And she

(38:28):
realized they assumed it was the prelude to an active
shooter attack or a terrorist attack. It is a totally
different mentality for these children. They have been traumatized more
than we can appreciate as adults, and so to expose
them to more is a mistake. Now, I am certainly
not saying we don't train. I think you're spot on.

(38:49):
My philosophy, of course, is any time you train someone
in anything, if they're set, or if they're scared, or
if they are you know, they're not receiving. Training is
doing things they're not They're not receiving and certainly not
retaining anything you're saying. And so these these trainers that
come in and do this shock and awe. I saw

(39:10):
a video the other day that just made me sick.
You know, this one trainer had a group of teachers
out in the hallway and then suddenly some other guy
comes out of the you know nowhere starts shooting.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
That was insane, It was I mean, it was almost criminal, yes.

Speaker 4 (39:25):
And it was just just terrible. And and so you know,
my philosophy is and I'm I'm so glad to hear yours,
and I hope many others are the same. Listen, you
have to have a calm, rational discussion. Uh, you have
to tell people some very basic things. Most of the content,
it's all concepts and principles, right, And I do exactly

(39:46):
what you do. I typically come into a school, I'll
have a one hour talk, a very candid discussion about
you know, here's where we are. I don't really hash
all the previous attacks, other than to illustrate some learning principles, right,
the difference between action versus non action, and what you
can do as an individual to buy that most critical
element time. And then I you know, send them out

(40:10):
to their classrooms or they're working there. I call their
micro environment, right, their office, their bullpend there wherever they teach, uh,
with those concepts and principles in mind to formulate, all, right,
what are you going to do? How are you going
to buy time? Knowing law enforcement is on the way,
knowing that you have to you might have to move,
you might have to barricade, depending on the situation, and

(40:31):
empower them with the knowledge and the skills, right, and
the concepts and principles that must be the you know,
critical thinker and also that voice and sort of beacon
of reason and calm for the kids, because as you know,
those children are going to look at adult, no matter

(40:53):
what age they are, They're going to look at that adult,
and if they sense that that adult is panicking or
doesn't know what they're doing, they're totally discounted. But if
they offer a sent of calm, uh, you know, uh,
determination and understand Yep, I've got a plan. We're going
to enact a plan. We're going to be okay, they
will follow. And so I totally agree with your philosophy there.

(41:14):
Uh it's spot on. And I have had such wonderful results.
I can't tell you how many times I've gone to
a school first thing in the morning and I'll see
these looks of dread and just almost distaste by many
of the faculty members who are yet another you know,
active shooter presentation, and by the end of it, almost

(41:35):
I'll have many of them come up, thank you so much.
That really resonated, and I appreciate you not being you know,
upsetting or over the top. Yeah, I mean, I just
it just it happens way too much. So hopefully we
can get a better handle on it. So I'm I'm
I'm glad you shared that. It's it's pretty important. So
there's been an increase, unfortunately in attacks on houses of worship.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
We are seeing. It used to be ninety eight percent
of active shooters in schools were men or boys between
the ages of you know, fourteen to about eighteen or nineteen.
A couple of years ago it went down to ninety
four percent. The three point five percent that filled the
void are transgender related shooters. So we've seen I think

(42:24):
it's a total of about ten have had some sort
of gender identity issue, coping problems, or full transition back
and forth. You responded to the Charleston church shooting. So
and you know, unfortunately these things are going to continue.
What lessons did that tragedy reinforce for you and when

(42:47):
you are teaching people.

Speaker 4 (42:50):
Yeah, that incident more than any other in my entire
thirty years of law enforcement, and of course you see
quite a bit, but incident hammered home from me. Ex
you know, the the understanding that preparation is essential. And
I want to be very clear, I am absolutely not

(43:12):
faulting the men and women that were in that church
basement having their Bible study. They were exactly where they
were supposed to be, doing exactly what they were supposed
to be doing. They welcomed this monster into their midst uh.
He actually sat with them for a full hour of
Bible study. And for those of your listeners who don't know,
at the end of this so so Mother emmanuel A

(43:35):
is an African American church, really historical, meaningful church in
the heart of Charleston, and he chose that location specifically
that the shooter was white and and it would be
white supremacist wanted to start. We know he did because
he told us one of the one of the case,
the case agent for the for the case was a
swat team made of mine and and so he told Joe, Yeah,

(44:01):
my intention was to start a race war. And so
so anyway, this monster stands up and calmly begins to
shoot with rystol the people that are sitting on that table,
and you ended up murdering nine people in the basement
of that church. There were seventy seven shell casings on
the floor from that pistol. Right, So I want to

(44:21):
say eleven spent magazines. And the reason I bring that
up is to, yeah, is to hammer home how long
that killing took place and the evidence that almost nobody
in that basement was capable reacting, and we see that
over and over again. That's my whole principle of doing

(44:43):
this is to spread that word. You know, the same
thing happened in Virginia at Virginia Tech. I'm a Virginia
Tech alumni and my daughter is a Hoochy, my wife's
a Hochy, and when that shooting happened, of course I
was just deeply immersed in it and studied it. Actually
had the opportunity to present with a young lady named
Christina Anderson. She is a survivor. She was in room

(45:06):
I believe it was two eleven, and she still talks
today about her experience. Now, this is an incredibly intelligent, articulate,
beautiful young lady. She's, you know, sitting in her class
French class that morning, and she says in her own words,
and this is powerful, She says, I'm sitting there and
I heard what I knew to be gunshots. You didn't

(45:26):
think they were a car backfire, didn't think they were fireworks.
I knew they were gunshots. And then suddenly the killer
is in her room, bursts into the room unopposed, murders
her professor right in front of her, and then proceeds
to walk across the front of the classroom to the
far aisle, and then begins to methodically walk up and

(45:48):
down each aisle where these kids were seated in rows
at different desks, and shoot these kids as they're sitting there.
And the reason I bring this up is Christina talks
about she says, in her own words, if you ever
get a chance to listen to her, please do, she says.
And now you have to remember she is seated in
her desk three or four feet from the open door

(46:11):
to the classroom, and the killer is now on the
other side of the classroom actively shooting people. But Christina says,
I sat there, I put my head down on my
desk and waited for it to be my turn to
be shot. And that, I mean, that just hit me
like a hammer blow. And then I saw it again
in Charleston, right, Christina said, I wish someone had talked

(46:35):
to me and told me. It never occurred to me
that this could happen. And believe me, I spent four
years in well, two years in Blacksburg, one of the
most ideal college towns in America. Nothing happens there, and
then this has happened right there. It's just overwhelming. But
the reason I bring all that up is people like

(46:55):
you and me, everyone will be almost incapable of eating
unless they have come up with just a basic plan
and cut it to it. Right, I will get up
and run. I will do this. I will go out
this backdoor, even if others aren't. Right. Most people are
paralyzed because we're packed creatures. Our mind has that bias

(47:16):
towards normalcy. It's convincing you this can't be happening. That's
cost you time, and that is again, you know, the
thing that we must preserve in any crisis.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
Yeah, people have to put it in their mind and
they have to practice and actually had to do scenarios
in their mind. If a teacher is sitting there in
the classroom, go through the scenario. This is what I'm
going to do, this is how I'm going to do it,
and every once in a while bring it back out
and talk about it again, because that's how you when
chaos occurs. When I was in the active shooter event

(47:46):
that I was in, everything in front of me was
slow motion. Every my periphery was just like it was
like I was in some sort of computer game where
it's just flying by quickly, and you know, but I
also had time to think to myself because I remember

(48:08):
myself thinking about things. You know, what I need to
do U, And that's somebody and you know, my opinion,
was probably highly trained or more trained than naturally most
civilians are. And I even you know, had struggled with
that focus. You know that occurs during that. The other
one is I also there was bombs going off, which
you never train in law enforcement. We don't. We always

(48:30):
trained for you know, shootings, and familiar with that sound.
But then all of a sudden you throw in pipe
bombs and time delay bombs and all those kinds of stuff,
which was completely you know, foreign to any kind of response.
But you know, before let's we only have a few
minutes left, and you bring up something that's very important.

(48:52):
Police officers wellness has become more and more of a
problem we're having. Like the military, we have more and
more law enforcement officers are taking their own lives. We
have seen a lot of stuff in our career. Uh,
and then we get involved in things like this, whether
it's like when I work homicides or even work major

(49:12):
drug cases. You see the worst that humanity has to offer.
You worked with agents that were highly active involved in
these kinds of things. How did you help them with
the trauma of witnessing these kinds of horrific events?

Speaker 4 (49:29):
You know, I like, like many foolish young officers, initially
just well, you know, I'm a tough guy. I can
you don't talk about it, right, you'd either drink your
feelings or you or you stow them away, just keep going.
And fortunately there's been such a movement towards acknowledging that

(49:51):
and embracing like, hey, that's not acceptable. Uh. These these
these are traumatic events that will have a meet and
lasting effects. And I'm so thankful for you know, the
companies and the individuals out there. They're doing, you know,
the hard work of breaking down those you know, initial
old school barriers and making it okay to have that conversation.

(50:15):
And there's so many more professionals now, and a lot
of these professionals are former law enforcement, right that that
have gone and gotten the education so that they can
talk to their fellow officers and you know, so just
having that conversation and and and always know, it's never
the wrong thing to reach out and check on somebody,
even even if they haven't been through a traumatic scenario.

(50:37):
That that that you're aware of, right, if it pops in,
you make that phone call. Maybe it's an old teammate
or an old patrol partner or whatever. That you know,
cops are generally lonely, tribal people, right. We work, we
work off hours, and we do different things. And typically,
you know, one day you wake up and you know,
you're irritated at the world. You don't have any friends

(50:59):
outside of law enforcement, and that's a troubling place to be.
And so I would tell people all the time, you know,
don't try to be this Hollywood version of a tough guy, right,
go out there and be the best teammate you possibly
can be, and even if that's just being there for
somebody on a phone call, or let's get a cup

(51:19):
of coffee. How you doing, you know whatever. Just I'm
so glad to see that the old stereotypical stuff has
has sort of gone away, and and I hope it
just keeps going because we have so few first responders
left that want to come do this job. This is
a crisis that America is facing and we're nowhere near

(51:41):
the end of it. We're just on the front end.
And you know, the more we can support those relatively
few heroes, the better off will be.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Yeah, no doubt. I mean, you know, it's like, okay,
dust yourself off, report back to duty the next day.
And many times it was the thought was it's better
just to get back to work and keep your mind
off of it. But you say, to a Scotch bottle
pretty quickly that.

Speaker 4 (52:03):
Way, Yeah, that's exactly right. They'll they'll acquire practice after work.

Speaker 3 (52:07):
Yeah that's right. So yeah, so those of you out
there reach out to help and let's talk to each other.
Don't don't feel like you're alone, don't feel like you
don't have an opportunity to share your feelings. Look me up.

(52:28):
I'm on substack. You can email me through a substack.
There's a chat function. You can always contact me and
I'll take time to talk to anybody. So I'm proud
of the law enforcement that's out there in the work
that they do. So, Rob, what advice do you have
for communities and leaders trying to harden their defenses.

Speaker 4 (52:51):
Well, always start with a conversation, right, the acknowledgement that, hey,
we are facing a serious problem. We are facing this
city of law enforcement officers. The resources are depleted. Uh
you know this. We had this massive outflux of experienced
officers and at the same time a real shortage of applicants.

(53:16):
So this is going to be something with us for
a long time. Acknowledging that, Now, what are we going
to do about it? Right? What are we going to
do as as a town, as a county. You know,
we talked a lot earlier about you know, active shooter
stuff and what can we do. I will tell you this.
I think that we as a country must acknowledge that

(53:38):
this type of violence is not going anywhere. Uh, you know,
gun control is not the answer. Yeah, And and so
we have to invest in protecting our most valuable Like,
so let's let's treat it like, uh, you know, this
this massive investment we have from overseas, right from some

(54:00):
of these countries, let's take billions of those dollars and
invest them in hardening. I'm not saying make schools a fortress,
but certainly make you know, make those funds available, especially
for the under resource schools that need those resources to
be able to keep you know, physical barricades, training for
teachers until we can get a handle on this this problem.

Speaker 3 (54:20):
Yeah, and the critical infrastructures too, those are the other
one that really needs to have a lot better hardened
as a result. So once again, how can people follow
your work?

Speaker 4 (54:32):
So U s c c A dot com is where
to find you know, a lot of the training that
I do. And then my book is available at practicalsecurityguide
dot com that you know, it's got a lot of
information about me. Takes you right to where you can
buy the book. Uh uh And and you know, like
I said, my email addresses on there. You know, I
would love to hear from you.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
Very good. Uh, Rob appreciated thanks for coming on the show.
It was enjoyed a conversation and hope to have you
back again.

Speaker 4 (54:57):
It would be my honor. I appreciate the opportunities. Stay safe.

Speaker 3 (55:00):
This is doctor Curry Myers. You can view all my
published works on substack at doctor Curry Myers dot substack
dot com. And hey, join me on x at doctor
Curry Myers and join me later today on the Low
Desmond Company Show on k m E T. For Criminal
Minds Tuesday, I'm guest hosting in my interview with Paul Moreau,

(55:20):
Fox News commentator, attorney and retired New York Police Department commander.
Stay safe and have a great day.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
Come steal sat up, trust us, Let's do it at
scram Co. S Leus

Speaker 1 (56:00):
Was a crowd break and chain through fast off to
a fame