Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed
to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy Stanley, and
before we jump into today's content, I wanted to talk
about a special offer from our sponsor, Blay. You know,
sometimes as leaders, we get trapped into belief that nobody
can do the job as well as we can. I mean,
I know I fall into that from time to time,
and then we feel like we have to have our
hands in everything for our organization to succeed. But that
(00:29):
couldn't be further from the truth. No one accomplishes anything
great alone. Great leaders delegate and if you feel like
you're overwhelmed trying to do it all, Blay can help.
Blay's modern staffing solutions have been helping busy leaders like
you delegate the details for over a decade, and with
Blay you can get intentionally paired with US based virtual
(00:50):
assistance and accounting specialists that level up your organization.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Through the power of delegation. That's right now.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I know what you might be thinking, I can't afford
to bring in help, but actually you can. If you're
a leader and you're trying to do all of it.
I propose that this might be the best investment that
you can make in your organization, not to mention a
great investment in your relationships and in your parenting and
possibly even your mental health. Balay's intentional matching process and
dedicated guides are ready and waiting to help you take
(01:18):
your leadership to the next level and to help you
get started. Balay is offering an exclusive leadership toolkit free
to our listeners. With this toolkit, you'll learn the necessary
steps every leader needs to take to accomplish more and
juggle less. To claim this offer, just text Andy, that's Andy,
A and d y to five to five one two
three Andy to five five one two three to get
(01:40):
started again.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
No one can do it alone.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Great leaders delegate, so get the support you need to
get out of the administrative weeds and back to growing
with Balay. And now let's jump into today's content. I
have been looking forward to this month's episode because we
have Arthur Brooks here to talk about his number one
New York Times bestselling book, From Strength to Strength. I
read it after it's released in February of last year,
(02:04):
and I have been recommending this book to friends ever since.
In fact, I cannot think of a book I have
recommended more in the last five, six, maybe ten years.
Every conversation I bring it up, every time I'm sitting
in front of leaders I'm like, have you read from
Strength to Strength? And so I was so thrilled when
Arthur agreed to come on the podcast. So, Arthur, welcome
(02:25):
to the Andie Stanley Leadership Podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Thank you, Andy wanted delight it is to be with you.
I've and looking forward to this too. Thank you for
the good work that you're doing to improve leadership and
improve people's lives.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I appreciate you saying that before we ju into
the content. Just for the half dozen or so folks
don't know who you are. Arthur Brooks is the William
Henry Bloomberg Professor of the Practice of Public Leadership at
the Harvard Kennedy School and Professor of Management Practice at
the Harvard Business School. Before joining the Harvard faculty, he
served for ten years as president of the Washington, DC
(02:55):
based American Enterprise Institute, one of the world's largest and
leading think tanks, and he talks all a good bit
about that in the book. He's also the author of
eleven books or ten other books, I guess, including the
national bestseller Love Your Enemies that came out in twenty nineteen.
He's a columnist for The Atlantic. He's the host of
this podcast, The Art of Happiness, and this was such
(03:16):
a cool thing. He was the subject or he's the
subject of the twenty nineteen documentary film The Pursuit, which
was named one of the best documentaries on Netflix in
twenty nineteen, which is a really big deal. He is
a sought after conference speaker in the US and Europe
and Asia, and so again we are so honored that
he chose to spend a few minutes with us today
on the podcast. So, Arthur, as we get started, would
(03:40):
you kind of give us for those who are unfamiliar
with the book, what is sort of the big picture
message of From Strength to Strength, and then we'll dive
into some details.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Well, this is the book written for people who are
trying to do a lot with their lives. And you know,
I guess everybody wants to do a lot with their lives,
but not everybody's trying to do a lot with their lives,
and that means a lot of different things to do
from people. Some people are workaholic, super ambitious people. Other
people are just trying to live up to God's plan
for their life and just doing the best that they
possibly can. The problem is there's no manual for how
(04:10):
you can do the best you can with the resources
at your disposal, and nobody tells you how that the
tools that you have are going to change. And the
truth of the matter is that the harder you work
and the better you are what you do, and the
harder that you that you drive towards your ambition, the
more you're going to come face to face with the
fact that it's going to look like you've got burnout problems,
(04:31):
that you've got declined problems happening much.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Earlier than you think.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
That's the first thing I confront the readers with in
this book, which is that in almost every profession, especially
professions that use our minds as much as our hands,
that most people, they they tend to peak in their
you know, their effectiveness in their late thirties, and by
their forties, they're tending to find themselves a little bit
burned out and they find that they're I mean, nobody
else is going to notice because they're so good to
(04:56):
what they do, but they're going to notice that they're
not making progress anymore. And that creates panic, It creates problems,
It creates depression and anxiety, and and there's a solution
to it. But you got to know the science and
change your approach to life.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
That's what it's all about.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, so I hope you don't take offense to this,
but every time I recommend this book, I say to look,
you're gonna have to make yourself finish the first chapter.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
I know.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And so you have to keep reading this.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Book because you appropriately and brilliantly carve us all down
to a nub, you know, in terms of how we
view ourselves, force us to face some reality. And again,
this is why I just don't think a person can
read this book early enough. So the other thing is
the story of how you got interested in this is
so fascinating. So tell us a little bit about why
(05:42):
this became a passion for you.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Well, you know, I'm I've been a real striver my
whole life, like a lot of people. I mean, you
don't listen to the Andy Stanley podcast unless you're a striver.
Nobody knows slackers gonna say I think it. Listen to
Andy Stanley podcast like I feel crummy about myself. Yeah,
people listen to this podcast so they can get fired
up and be better at what they do. And that
is certainly the case for me. I've been working hard
my whole life. I don't think I've ever worked less
(06:04):
than sixty or seventy hours a week. I've done a
lot of different things. But the truth of the matter
is that I noticed I was losing steam in my forties.
I was running a company, I was running a big
think tank in Washington, d C. I was feeling less
interested in my work. I was being I mean, I
I had energy, but it just wasn't I mean, it
just wasn't the same man. And I was wondering what's
(06:25):
wrong with me? And during that time, you know, thinking
where is this going to lead? Maybe I can get
a second wind. I don't know, I encountered. I had
this chance encounter on an airplane. I overheard a guy
behind me on an airplane one night. You know, I
was flying from Washington, or from LA to Washington, d C.
Long flight, eleven o'clock a night, and I heard him
confessing to his wife that he might as well be dead,
(06:47):
that nobody remembered him anymore. That nobody cared about him anymore.
I could tell he was elderly, and I.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Thought, well, at least I'm not that right, because that
guy obviously didn't live. He never did anything with his life. Obviously.
Now he's really disappointing. It's nearly over.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
We get to Washington and the lights turn on and
we all stand up, and I just you know, I'm
a behavioral scientist. I want to see that the person
on whom my benieves talking. Look my laboratory, My research
laboratory is overheard conversations, right as you know, I'm a
social scientist. And I turned around and it was one
of the most famous men.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
In the world.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
This is somebody that we all know. This is somebody
who's achieved ten x what I'm going to do. He's
a legitimate hero. He's changed the course of American life
because of his achievements in the nineteen sixties and nineteen
seventies for the better.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
He's made the world.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
And I heard him confessing to his wife he might
as well be dead because his achievements were so far
in the past.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
He didn't have anything to live for look forward to anymore.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I thought, man is a rock in my world, because
the world tells you work hard, play by the rules,
achieve like crazy, be successful, bank it, die happy, and
that's wrong. The truth of the matter is you need
a current plan to continue to create value with your life.
And your skills and abilities and strengths are going to change,
(08:00):
so you better know what that's going to mean, and
you better plug into what you do well so that
you can adapt according to your abilities as you get older.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well, that opening illustration that you come back to at
the end of the book is so compelling, and I'm
sure every person who's ever read this book who met
you as like, tell me who it is.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
They all want to know. That's the best catch.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Well's off limits. And the only reason a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Number one is that you know, I made a deal
with my publisher that I would take it to my grave.
But more practically speaking, it could be so many people,
and who would want to defame somebody's reputation simply to
make a point or for the curiosity that comes from that.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Look, we're all cut from the same cloth.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
We're all we're I mean, we got feet to clay,
is the whole point, and we should be able to
learn from each other from both strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So, as we talked about a little bit before we began,
You're not the first person to enter this space and
write into this space in terms of second half of
figuring out what's next and all the.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Sorts of things. But and I've read some of those books.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
But honestly, your insights and your solutions are unique, and
your applications are extremely practical. And I'm going to try
not to interrupt you in the next two or three
minutes to tell you what I learned from the book,
because this is for our listeners. So tease this out
a little bit and talk about these different kinds of intelligence,
because that's.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Kind of the framework going forward.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah, So what I set out to do after having
this experience, I went home and I told my wife Esther.
I said, sweetheart, I do not want to be having
that conversation with you on the plane forty years now.
I do not want to be telling you that I
might as well be dead. And she said, well, look,
you suffered through your social scientist. You got a PhD
for a reason, right, why don't you use that knowledge
for something practical and solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
A good wife, Yeah, she's all a good wife.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
I mean, like she leads me and leads me in
paths of righteousness. Yeah, I mean, if I get into heaven.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
It's because of my wife. But she wants me to
be happy.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
On this side of the mortal coil too, And I said, yeah,
it makes perfect sense. So my goal was to see
do people who are successful, do they tend to be
happier or unhappier in old age?
Speaker 4 (10:00):
And how can I be happier and.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Actually create a lot of value dedicating my work to
the good of others and the glory of God and
all the things and enjoy it? So how can I
get all of those things at the same time as possible?
And one of the first things that I found is
that people who tend to be most disappointed with their
lives after seventy are the people who have the most
success early in their lives.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
I did not expect that.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I expected to find that people who are more successful
earlier would be happier later, and it's the opposite for
a couple of different reasons. Number one is that hard
charging strivers tend to have unbelievably high standards for themselves.
It's really hard to live up to your mother's standards.
It's even harder to live up to your own standards.
And when you get old, it's going to be that
much harder and you're not going to see the kind
(10:42):
of success coming and that's going to be incredibly disappointing.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
That's number one.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Number two is just the contrast between the big party
that you've had and the fact that it's over is
very disappointing. So the result of that is that you
need to think very differently about the second half of
your life and you do the first half.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Of your life.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You can't keep doing what you were doing and hoping
that you'll be able to enjoy it and it won't
diminish and it won't wind up bringing you a whole
lot of bitterness and unhappiness. So that leads to the
really big, the big solution to how to be successful
and playing to your strengths and get happier as you
get older. And the number one thing to keep in
to keep in mind is that your intelligence changes.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Now, this is a big neuroscientific.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
And social scientific point, but I'm making the book, and
the book is based around this idea.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
There's two intelligence curves.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Now everybody knows about IQ and knows about you know,
you're able to give a go to satscore whatever.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
That's not what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I'm talking about two different kinds of intelligence that you
have in the early part of your life and the
later part of your life.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
And the early part of your life you.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Have an abundance what social psychologists called fluid intelligence. That's
working memory, that's innovative capacity, that's the ability to focus.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
That's you get much better at.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Doing what you're doing because you hone your skills and
just through raw horsepower ten thousand hours of practice, you
get much better at it. So everybody is listening to
us right now, and who's a financial planner, a lawyer,
a doctor, all the people that want to be better leaders,
you know, business leaders, or you know even people who
are not in traditional businesses, but they got a lot
of responsibilities.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
They get better and better and better.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Through the twenties and thirties just based on their hard
work and personal responsibility. All of those abilities, based on
your ability to solve problems, innovate, remember things. Those all
peak in your late thirties or early forties and start
to decline.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Now I have to stop you there, because that is
the part of the book where everybody goes what late twenties, thirties,
you know that, you know, everybody's thinking no, forties.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
And fifties, yeah, or sixties.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, But this is an important revelation. And to
acknowledge that anyway didn't mean I just didn't want to
know by that, because people are going to think, did
I hear that correctly?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I know? Thirty nine is the magic age.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Thirty nine is the is the is the that the
year of highest productivity and quality? Or for surgeons, financial planners,
Wall Street brokers, for electricians, for judges, for classical musicians.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
For writers.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I mean, I've just it's just it's uncanny scientists, thirty nine,
thirty years again, you're over the hill at well, no, no,
you're at your max at thirty nine.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
The problem is then you're over the hill. You're on
the long side of the hill.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And the key thing is you can be pretty close
to the top of your game, but if you're not
getting better, you don't like it. God made us to
make progress. That's how he wired us to make progress.
You know, keep going, keep going. You wanted us to
keep going across the Sinai and get into the Promised
Land and the milk Land of milk and honey and
be like, hey, it's pretty good in the Sinai.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Let's stay here. Huh.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
That's not how God made us, that's my view, but
that's actually how how evolutionary biologists understand the human species
as well. That's the reason that my dentist at forty three,
she's a great dentist. She's the best dentist in town.
She stopped working Fridays.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And started golfing. It's like, do you like golfing? Says
and not. I hate golfing, but I got to do
something because I'm so burnt out. How are you burnt out?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
The reason is she didn't know it. She's still great.
She wasn't making progress, she was making regress. That's the
bad news. That's the two by four across the chops
that you talked about in the first chapter.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Of this book. Okay, now the good news.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
There's a second intelligence curve that comes in behind it
that you get better and better and better at in
your forties and fifties and sixties, and you stay high
in your seventies and eighties and nineties. If you've got
your marbles. That's called crystallized intelligence. That does not require
working memory. Thank god, I can't remember anything anymore. It
does not require innovative capacity. What it requires is pattern
(14:38):
recognition and good judgment and tons of wisdom. In other words,
when you're in your twenties and thirties, you can solve
any problem. When you're in your fifties and sixties, you
know which problems to solve. You know, in your twenties
and thirties you're the hot shot. In your fifties and sixties,
you can identify the next generation of hot shots. That's
why you should be a startup entrepreneur at thirty five,
(14:58):
and you should be a venture capitalists at sixty. You
should be the you know, the the star litigator at
thirty five. You should be the managing partner.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
At sixty five. That's what exploits these.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Different intelligence curves. Here's the problem, Andy, everybody who's got
this unbelievably high fluid intelligence and hard work and just
offering it up and just digging it, man, they want
to stay on that curve forever, and they end up
surfing that curve all the way back down through the
forties and fifties and wondering what's wrong with them?
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Answer?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Nothing, You got to get on the next curve, even
if it's hard, even if it's scary, And that's what
this book is, how to do it?
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Before we continue, as I mentioned at the top of
the broadcast, our sponsor Balay is offering their leadership Toolkit
free to our listeners. With it, you'll learn steps you
can take as a leader to accomplish more and juggle less. Again,
just text the word Andy A n D Y to
five five one two three. That's Andy to five to
five one two three to get access to this toolkit,
and in no time you will be back to doing
(15:56):
what only you can do, which is growing your organization.
So practically speaking, so what if you could kind of
condense and let me just say to our listeners, regardless
of how good this conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Is, you got to get this book. We're skipping over
so much stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
But anyway, the majority of folks listening are probably between
twenty five and fifty five, So what is kind of
the takeaway as they think about second half happiness or
again making the jump from a fluid to crystallized intelligence.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So the key thing is if you get on your
second curve, then you will be happier than you were
in the first part of your life. Greater happiness is
in your future, by the way, a better marriage is
in your future. A better relationship with your kids is
in your future, a better a better understanding of your.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Relationship with God is in your future.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
But you got to get on that second curve because
that's your's that's when you're in the zone of your
maximum effectiveness, and that's when you're living up to what
you can uniquely do well.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
It takes humility because you have to step back from it.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It requires that you exhibit a lot of virtues like
you know, as I said, humility, but also a whole
lot of courage, a whole lot of ability to say,
this isn't going to go in the right direction, but
I'm confident that there's something better in my future. Okay,
then there's a whole bunch of things to do. There's
a whole bunch of things to do that makes it
easier and more fun to begin with.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Make this thing sound fun for us, please?
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
The number one thing that people get wrong when they're
stuck on their first curve. When they're stuck trying to
do what they always did, and it's getting harder and
more boring and more turgid, and they hate it. The
one thing that all have in common is that they
think that they're going to be happier if they're doing more,
getting more, experiencing more, meeting more people, having.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
More and more and more and more of everything.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
What all people who are really good at getting older
have in common, who get older and are happier having
common is they start to master the art of subtraction
as opposed to addition. You know, one of the things
that we find is that everybody on the first curve,
they satisfaction comes to them as as a function of
all the things that they have, and they're four for more.
Satisfaction is having more. That doesn't just mean more money.
(18:03):
It also means more power, and more experiences and more relationships,
and more prestige and more admiration and more agulation more.
But the key thing that everybody learns who masters this
is that your satisfaction is a function of all the
things that you have, divided by all the things that
you want. In other words, say that again, yeah, haves
(18:26):
divided by wants.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Now think about that's a fraction.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
That model is very important because one way to have
more satisfaction is to have more, but that's inefficient when
you've got a lot already. That numerator is huge. What
you need is to be efficient is to start managing
your wants. If you start decreasing the denominator, decreasing your wants,
you're going to find so.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Much more satisfaction than you've had in the past.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Every year on your birthday after forty five, you should
have a reverse bucket list all the stuff that you're
not going to be attached to anymore, all the things
that you're going to give away, all the things that
are distracting you from the things that you really want.
The better marriage that you need, the greater worship that
you need, the understanding of your life that you need.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
This is being distracted by the.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Stuff, the toxic relationships, the dumb things that you do
every day, the ambitions that are weighing you down.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
All of the people on.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The second curve who are really successful and happy, what
they have in common is that they have a subtraction
strategy about their own lives as opposed to just an
edition strategy.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And that is so not intuitive.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Totally totally man.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I mean, well, let me just tell you a break
through moment for me as I was reading this book,
because it falls into that category. You tell a story
about I don't know if these were your words you
used to describe this man, or if this was his words,
I can't remember, but essentially you were explaining this to
someone and they just weren't willing to do it, and
essentially you said on their behalf or they said that
(19:55):
I'm going to read this to you, that they would
rather be special than happy. Yeah, they would rather be
special than happy. When I read that, for the first
time in my life, I was willing to acknowledge that
I like being special and that that could be the
thing that in my refusal to give up the you
know what I'm doing, where I'm doing, and who I know,
(20:17):
why I get invited all that stuff. I went home
until Sandra I said listen to this, and I've gotten
up in front of our entire staff and talked about
this to say, hey, I don't think I was ever
willing to admit to myself how addicted I am to
being special, but that trade off special to happy, I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Talk a little gag about that. Yeah, it's an absolute
game changer. So one of the things that it's worth
keeping in mind. A lot of people, you know, they're
not big hippies listening to us, but they have kind
of the hippie mantra that if it feels good, do it.
That if something really you really really want something, if
you follow your instincts, it must be because that's going
to make you happier.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
That's wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Mother nature only has two goals for you and me
and everybody listening to us. She wants you to survive
and pass on your genes. She does not care if
you're happy. Happy is not selected in evolutionary terms, it's
just not now if we think about it, for those
of us who are people of faith, you've got animal
nature and you've got divine nature. If you just do
what feels good, you're following your animal nature and you're
(21:17):
going to pass on your genes and you're gonna survive.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Your divine nature.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Is to bring you closer to the source of good
in your life, and that's what's going to bring happiness.
And that means you're gonna have to do a lot
of things that don't feel natural.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Look, sin feels natural. Sin doesn't feel unnatural.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
The problem is sin is the most natural thing, right,
That's what it means to be fallen. But the point
is that we rebel against our nature, and that's what
brings us to divinity. That's what brings us to we're
really supposed to be as people. Okay, now back to
the whole conundrum, the story that you're talking about.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I was talking to this woman my age on Wall Street.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
She's, you know, I'm in my late fifties and she's
in her late fifties and she's killing it.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Dude.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I mean she's she's made probably a billion dollars, she
has a firm named after her. She's just she's doing
everything right. Okay, but you talk to her and she says, yeah,
are you happy?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
No? Why not?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well, my husband and I were roommates. I think I
have a kind of a cordial relationship with my kids.
I'm not making crisp decisions in my firm.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I don't like it as much as I used to,
but I don't know what else to do. I'm drinking
too much. The doctor has given me bad reports.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
What do I do? Professor?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And I'm like, you don't need a Harvard nerd to
tell you what to do. You know, you know exactly
what to do.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
You just told me. Step back from your firm, take.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
A souvenir in your company, go away with your husband,
get back into church. Got alcoholics anonymous? Come on, man,
what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Why? She says? You know, I know, I say, so
why not?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
And she says, because I always chose to be special
rather than happy boom man my job, because I'm not
going to kid y andy. Me too, me too, And
she said it was like it was like a knife
to my heart. You know, I can't tell you I
was I was a CEO before I did this, before
I was teaching at Harvard.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
And I can't tell you the number of nights.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
That I worked the fourteenth hour as opposed to going
for the first hour with my children. And I missed
those years they grew up. Now I don't have to
repeat those errors because in two weeks I'm going to
be a grandfather.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
You probably already are, right, just four months ago, beautiful yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
And with my adult children, by the way, each one
of them spends time with me every day, whether they
like it or not. And part of the reason is
because I'm gonna be happy. I'm gonna be happy as
opposed to continuing to be special in this particular way.
But if you follow your animal nature, if you follow
your instincts and your urges, you will always choose special.
(23:40):
And if you choose special, you're simply not gonna have
the happiness that comes. And the happiness comes because of love.
Specialness comes because of achievement. Happiness comes because of love.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
That's amazing. You touched on this earlier.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
One of the obstacles to even moving into this direction
is our pride or our lack of humility. I wrote
down two quotes from the book that again I just
carried around on my notes, So just comment on these.
To share your weakness without carrying what other people think
is kind of a superpower. To share your weakness without
carrying what other people think is kind of a superpower.
And the second one was this sharing weakness is the
(24:16):
ultimate subversion against your special, objectified self. The concept of
an objectified self is so powerful. And I've never heard
that phrase before, but that's exactly what we do, objectify ourselves,
and that makes me special. And I have to maintain
special in around and round and round, I go and
talk about that whole humility thing, because you know, it
(24:39):
takes humility to step off the treadmill.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Totally, totally, but that humility is truly one of the
great game changing things that and again, I mean we
learned this in every philosophy and theology class, that you
know you're driven toward these vices and that the heavenly
virtues that accompany them don't feel natural, and yet they
are what actually will bring blis.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Is what it comes down to. Humility is a perfect case.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
The deadliest of the deadly sins in Dante's Inferno is pride,
you know, and how does pride work. You're holding yourself
up as something unbelievably special all the time, and you
will live in fear. You will live an absolute, mortified
fear of anything that threatens your ego or threatens your
vision of who you're supposed to be as a person. Now,
(25:22):
we all grew up, I mean most of us grew
up in good families. And my father would have said,
it's a grave sin for you to objectify a woman,
for you to reduce a woman to her physical characteristics
and her good looks, and then use her in any
way that sinful will be unto you. I'm sure your
father taught you the same thing, and we're trying to
teach our sons the same thing, and yet we do
that to ourselves, not physically. In the contrary, you say, Okay,
(25:46):
why am I a workaholic? Why am I workholic? Because
I'm addicted to success? Why am I addicted to success?
Because I just want to be the special one? What
is the special one? The rich CEO? That's the special one.
That is an object that is reducing myself to my job,
characteristics and my money. And that is a sinful thing
to do. Plus it will make me miserable. So what
(26:08):
do you have to do? You have to say, basically,
I'm just a guy. I'm just a guy. You know,
I'm just a guy like any other person. And to
declare your humility and your weakness. This is Saint Paul's
characteristic insight. He said, when I'm weak, I am strong.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
In the Epistles of Paul, you know, when he's talking
to the Corinthians about the thorn in his flesh, he's
admitting that he's just mortal. He's admitting that he's not strong.
Why because he wants to he wants to connect himself
in a mortal way. The shortest verse in the Bible
is John eleven thirty five two words Jesus wept why
(26:46):
because he was connecting himself at the weakest point to
what it meant to be a person. And yet I'm
so special, I'm so strong, I'm so awesome that I
couldn't even live up to the standard of my savior
In John eleven thirty five.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
That's craziness. That is complete craziness.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
So here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
If you can break through that veil, if you can
get there, man, if you can get through it and
say I'm weak, I'm.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Not so special.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I just it's interesting. I just did this analysis, did
this research. Can I write this call in The Atlantic
every week? And I just wrote this column. It's going
to come out in a few weeks, maybe about the
time that this episode airs, about why is it that
so many young people are miserable today? And they answer
fundamentally is that they're lonely and they're isolated, and they
don't have romance. They're a third less likely to be
in love than we were in the nineteen eighties when
(27:35):
we were that age. Why and The answer is because
they have attachment of avoidance. It's an attachment style that
psychologists call avoidant attachment. Why and the reason is because
they have been told their whole lives that they're the
special one.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
When you're the special one, so a.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Force field against loving others and being loved.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Everybody in our studio is dying laughing. That's pretty brilliant.
It is a say that again. The feeling of being
special is a force field against.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
It's a force field against loving and being loved. It's
like your plexi glass shield against the things that you
most want. So you're walking around saying, I'm so lowly,
I just want to find a partner, I just want love,
and somebody comes towards you and they bump into your
specialness that play.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And you bump into theirs too, if both people are
trying to be most special.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, it's not you work.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
It's like late on the line, man, late on the line,
that you're weak and you need love and you're lonely,
and it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, let's all say it together. I'm pathetic and so
are you right, that's right.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Love me the way I am and by the way,
they will, they will be the way that you are.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
So any sort of high level tips about discovering your
crystallized intelligence. You have so much in the book about
how to figure out what's next based on because they're connected,
the fluid intelligence crystallized, they're connected.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Absolutely, so good.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
The fluid intellig is interesting because it's your instructor curve.
Think about it as your your Your fluid intelligence is
your Mark Zuckerberg innovation curve. Your crystallized intelligence is your
professor curve. That's where you share your knowledge, That's where
you share your wisdom.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Now, what are you going to be.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Good at identifying talent, finding patterns using your experience. That's
what it comes down to. So the way to think
about this is, in my world, whatever it happens to be,
I used to be inventing new things. I want to
find the next group of people that are going to
be inventing new things. I want to be helping the
next group of people that are going to be working hard.
(29:36):
I want to find some way to become a teacher.
Now that means different things for different people. As I
mentioned before, you know, a venture capitalist is a teacher
of young entrepreneurs. You're teaching with this podcast, you couldn't
have done such a good I mean, this podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Has millions of listeners.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
If you had done this thirty years ago, when you
were in your early thirties, this would not been successful.
I mean maybe you were that good. But you know what,
the reason that this is important is because you're talking
to me, and every question you're asking me, I can
tell it. I can tell what you're doing right now
because you're a master teacher. You're trying to draw answers
(30:14):
out of me that are going to teach the people
who are listening to us. You are on your teaching curve.
That's why this is the right thing for you to do. Okay,
every single person listening to us, who's going from in
from the thirties to their forties to their fifties, say,
what is the teaching version of me? Maybe it's literally teaching.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
I quit my job as the CEO and became a professor.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
What is the teaching version of me?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
That's the question.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
And you think that everyone can discover an answer to
that question.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Every single person you're going from your parent curve to
your grandparent curve. Think about it that way, right, where
you're you know, you're you're sitting in a rocking chair
saying profound things as opposed to running around trying to
solve every problem.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I mean, this is there's a there's a version of this.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
And interestingly, you know, I talk to a lot of
people and people about this, and a lot of people
will ask me, how is it different.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Than men and women?
Speaker 3 (31:04):
And it's a very interesting difference between the two. Women
are much better at getting on their crystallized intelligence curves now,
especially women who had a more conventional first half of
their life. So for example, women who stayed home with
their kids and raised their families and use their fluid
intelligence curves to raise their kids, they have a very
seamless way. They find a lot of ease and stepping
(31:25):
onto their crystallized intelligence curve because sometimes it's the first
time that they've worked full time outside the home, and
so they just go and do what people want them
to do, and they're naturally good at. Meanwhile, their husbands
are depressed and having a hard time. They're like, I
don't know, man, it used to because I'm so burned out,
I'm so depressed.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
And their wives are.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Like, yeah, I don't know, man, I've had a great
time here. Life is pretty sweet. So there's a there's
a path for everybody. For some people, it's harder, and
the more successfully you're on your fluid intelligence curve, the
harder it's going to be to have this confidence, which
means you're gonna have to put your heart into it,
and offered.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Up, Wow, well as you could tell, I could talk
to you all afternoon.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
And this book, I know you've written ten other books
that I get that right, So I mean, who's counting?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
I mean you mean good books or bad books written on.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Some other You've written some other books.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
But this book is a gift to all the striver
And that's the words you use in the book, the strivers,
So for all the strivers out there, content junkies, trying
to get it better, trying to go forward.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And I think what Arthur said are we are created
to make progress.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
We're created to move things forward, and that's the natural
thing we need to lean into. And this is not
a matter of not making any more progress. It's just
getting off the first phase of progress to really make
more progress. The way that we were wired that's best
connected to that first half you've given us a lot
to think about. So I've loved this conversation. I know
(32:50):
our podcast listeners have as well. Unfortunately we run out
of time, so thanks so much for being here and
to all our listeners.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Please pick up a copy of From.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks, and be sure you
visit the Indie Stanley dot com website where you can
download a leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary
of this discussion and questions for reflection for you and
your entire team. And don't forget to join us next
month on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast
Hey, everybody.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Welcome to the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast, a conversation designed
to help leaders go further faster. I'm Andy Stanley, and
before we jump into today's content, I wanted to talk
about a special offer from our sponsor, Blay. You know,
sometimes as leaders, we get trapped into belief that nobody
can do the job as well as we can. I mean,
I know I fall into that from time to time,
and then we feel like we have to have our
hands in everything for our organization to succeed. But that
(00:29):
couldn't be further from the truth. No one accomplishes anything
great alone. Great leaders delegate and if you feel like
you're overwhelmed trying to do it all, Blay can help.
Blay's modern staffing solutions have been helping busy leaders like
you delegate the details for over a decade, and with
Blay you can get intentionally paired with US based virtual
(00:50):
assistance and accounting specialists that level up your organization.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Through the power of delegation. That's right now.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
I know what you might be thinking, I can't afford
to bring in help, but actually you can. If you're
a leader and you're trying to do all of it.
I propose that this might be the best investment that
you can make in your organization, not to mention a
great investment in your relationships and in your parenting and
possibly even your mental health. Balay's intentional matching process and
dedicated guides are ready and waiting to help you take
(01:18):
your leadership to the next level and to help you
get started. Balay is offering an exclusive leadership toolkit free
to our listeners. With this toolkit, you'll learn the necessary
steps every leader needs to take to accomplish more and
juggle less. To claim this offer, just text Andy, that's Andy,
A and d y to five to five one two
three Andy to five five one two three to get
(01:40):
started again.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
No one can do it alone.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Great leaders delegate, so get the support you need to
get out of the administrative weeds and back to growing
with Balay. And now let's jump into today's content. I
have been looking forward to this month's episode because we
have Arthur Brooks here to talk about his number one
New York Times bestselling book, From Strength to Strength. I
read it after it's released in February of last year,
(02:04):
and I have been recommending this book to friends ever since.
In fact, I cannot think of a book I have
recommended more in the last five, six, maybe ten years.
Every conversation I bring it up, every time I'm sitting
in front of leaders I'm like, have you read from
Strength to Strength? And so I was so thrilled when
Arthur agreed to come on the podcast. So, Arthur, welcome
(02:25):
to the Andie Stanley Leadership Podcast.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Thank you, Andy wanted delight it is to be with you.
I've and looking forward to this too. Thank you for
the good work that you're doing to improve leadership and
improve people's lives.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Well, I appreciate you saying that before we ju into
the content. Just for the half dozen or so folks
don't know who you are. Arthur Brooks is the William
Henry Bloomberg Professor of the Practice of Public Leadership at
the Harvard Kennedy School and Professor of Management Practice at
the Harvard Business School. Before joining the Harvard faculty, he
served for ten years as president of the Washington, DC
(02:55):
based American Enterprise Institute, one of the world's largest and
leading think tanks, and he talks all a good bit
about that in the book. He's also the author of
eleven books or ten other books, I guess, including the
national bestseller Love Your Enemies that came out in twenty nineteen.
He's a columnist for The Atlantic. He's the host of
this podcast, The Art of Happiness, and this was such
(03:16):
a cool thing. He was the subject or he's the
subject of the twenty nineteen documentary film The Pursuit, which
was named one of the best documentaries on Netflix in
twenty nineteen, which is a really big deal. He is
a sought after conference speaker in the US and Europe
and Asia, and so again we are so honored that
he chose to spend a few minutes with us today
on the podcast. So, Arthur, as we get started, would
(03:40):
you kind of give us for those who are unfamiliar
with the book, what is sort of the big picture
message of From Strength to Strength, and then we'll dive
into some details.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Well, this is the book written for people who are
trying to do a lot with their lives. And you know,
I guess everybody wants to do a lot with their lives,
but not everybody's trying to do a lot with their lives,
and that means a lot of different things to do
from people. Some people are workaholic, super ambitious people. Other
people are just trying to live up to God's plan
for their life and just doing the best that they
possibly can. The problem is there's no manual for how
(04:10):
you can do the best you can with the resources
at your disposal, and nobody tells you how that the
tools that you have are going to change. And the
truth of the matter is that the harder you work
and the better you are what you do, and the
harder that you that you drive towards your ambition, the
more you're going to come face to face with the
fact that it's going to look like you've got burnout problems,
(04:31):
that you've got declined problems happening much.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Earlier than you think.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
That's the first thing I confront the readers with in
this book, which is that in almost every profession, especially
professions that use our minds as much as our hands,
that most people, they they tend to peak in their
you know, their effectiveness in their late thirties, and by
their forties, they're tending to find themselves a little bit
burned out and they find that they're I mean, nobody
else is going to notice because they're so good to
(04:56):
what they do, but they're going to notice that they're
not making progress anymore. And that creates panic, It creates problems,
It creates depression and anxiety, and and there's a solution
to it. But you got to know the science and
change your approach to life.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
That's what it's all about.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Well, so I hope you don't take offense to this,
but every time I recommend this book, I say to look,
you're gonna have to make yourself finish the first chapter.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
I know.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
And so you have to keep reading this.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Book because you appropriately and brilliantly carve us all down
to a nub, you know, in terms of how we
view ourselves, force us to face some reality. And again,
this is why I just don't think a person can
read this book early enough. So the other thing is
the story of how you got interested in this is
so fascinating. So tell us a little bit about why
(05:42):
this became a passion for you.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Well, you know, I'm I've been a real striver my
whole life, like a lot of people. I mean, you
don't listen to the Andy Stanley podcast unless you're a striver.
Nobody knows slackers gonna say I think it. Listen to
Andy Stanley podcast like I feel crummy about myself. Yeah,
people listen to this podcast so they can get fired
up and be better at what they do. And that
is certainly the case for me. I've been working hard
my whole life. I don't think I've ever worked less
(06:04):
than sixty or seventy hours a week. I've done a
lot of different things. But the truth of the matter
is that I noticed I was losing steam in my forties.
I was running a company, I was running a big
think tank in Washington, d C. I was feeling less
interested in my work. I was being I mean, I
I had energy, but it just wasn't I mean, it
just wasn't the same man. And I was wondering what's
(06:25):
wrong with me? And during that time, you know, thinking
where is this going to lead? Maybe I can get
a second wind. I don't know, I encountered. I had
this chance encounter on an airplane. I overheard a guy
behind me on an airplane one night. You know, I
was flying from Washington, or from LA to Washington, d C.
Long flight, eleven o'clock a night, and I heard him
confessing to his wife that he might as well be dead,
(06:47):
that nobody remembered him anymore. That nobody cared about him anymore.
I could tell he was elderly, and I.
Speaker 4 (06:51):
Thought, well, at least I'm not that right, because that
guy obviously didn't live. He never did anything with his life. Obviously.
Now he's really disappointing. It's nearly over.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
We get to Washington and the lights turn on and
we all stand up, and I just you know, I'm
a behavioral scientist. I want to see that the person
on whom my benieves talking. Look my laboratory, My research
laboratory is overheard conversations, right as you know, I'm a
social scientist. And I turned around and it was one
of the most famous men.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
In the world.
Speaker 3 (07:18):
This is somebody that we all know. This is somebody
who's achieved ten x what I'm going to do. He's
a legitimate hero. He's changed the course of American life
because of his achievements in the nineteen sixties and nineteen
seventies for the better.
Speaker 4 (07:30):
He's made the world.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
And I heard him confessing to his wife he might
as well be dead because his achievements were so far
in the past.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
He didn't have anything to live for look forward to anymore.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
I thought, man is a rock in my world, because
the world tells you work hard, play by the rules,
achieve like crazy, be successful, bank it, die happy, and
that's wrong. The truth of the matter is you need
a current plan to continue to create value with your life.
And your skills and abilities and strengths are going to change,
(08:00):
so you better know what that's going to mean, and
you better plug into what you do well so that
you can adapt according to your abilities as you get older.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
Well, that opening illustration that you come back to at
the end of the book is so compelling, and I'm
sure every person who's ever read this book who met
you as like, tell me who it is.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
They all want to know. That's the best catch.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Well's off limits. And the only reason a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Number one is that you know, I made a deal
with my publisher that I would take it to my grave.
But more practically speaking, it could be so many people,
and who would want to defame somebody's reputation simply to
make a point or for the curiosity that comes from that.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Look, we're all cut from the same cloth.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
We're all we're I mean, we got feet to clay,
is the whole point, and we should be able to
learn from each other from both strengths and weaknesses.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So, as we talked about a little bit before we began,
You're not the first person to enter this space and
write into this space in terms of second half of
figuring out what's next and all the.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Sorts of things. But and I've read some of those books.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
But honestly, your insights and your solutions are unique, and
your applications are extremely practical. And I'm going to try
not to interrupt you in the next two or three
minutes to tell you what I learned from the book,
because this is for our listeners. So tease this out
a little bit and talk about these different kinds of intelligence,
because that's.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Kind of the framework going forward.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Yeah, So what I set out to do after having
this experience, I went home and I told my wife Esther.
I said, sweetheart, I do not want to be having
that conversation with you on the plane forty years now.
I do not want to be telling you that I
might as well be dead. And she said, well, look,
you suffered through your social scientist. You got a PhD
for a reason, right, why don't you use that knowledge
for something practical and solve the problem.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
A good wife, Yeah, she's all a good wife.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
I mean, like she leads me and leads me in
paths of righteousness. Yeah, I mean, if I get into heaven.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
It's because of my wife. But she wants me to
be happy.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
On this side of the mortal coil too, And I said, yeah,
it makes perfect sense. So my goal was to see
do people who are successful, do they tend to be
happier or unhappier in old age?
Speaker 4 (10:00):
And how can I be happier and.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Actually create a lot of value dedicating my work to
the good of others and the glory of God and
all the things and enjoy it? So how can I
get all of those things at the same time as possible?
And one of the first things that I found is
that people who tend to be most disappointed with their
lives after seventy are the people who have the most
success early in their lives.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
I did not expect that.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
I expected to find that people who are more successful
earlier would be happier later, and it's the opposite for
a couple of different reasons. Number one is that hard
charging strivers tend to have unbelievably high standards for themselves.
It's really hard to live up to your mother's standards.
It's even harder to live up to your own standards.
And when you get old, it's going to be that
much harder and you're not going to see the kind
(10:42):
of success coming and that's going to be incredibly disappointing.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
That's number one.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Number two is just the contrast between the big party
that you've had and the fact that it's over is
very disappointing. So the result of that is that you
need to think very differently about the second half of
your life and you do the first half.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
Of your life.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
You can't keep doing what you were doing and hoping
that you'll be able to enjoy it and it won't
diminish and it won't wind up bringing you a whole
lot of bitterness and unhappiness. So that leads to the
really big, the big solution to how to be successful
and playing to your strengths and get happier as you
get older. And the number one thing to keep in
to keep in mind is that your intelligence changes.
Speaker 4 (11:23):
Now, this is a big neuroscientific.
Speaker 3 (11:25):
And social scientific point, but I'm making the book, and
the book is based around this idea.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
There's two intelligence curves.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
Now everybody knows about IQ and knows about you know,
you're able to give a go to satscore whatever.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
That's not what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I'm talking about two different kinds of intelligence that you
have in the early part of your life and the
later part of your life.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
And the early part of your life you.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Have an abundance what social psychologists called fluid intelligence. That's
working memory, that's innovative capacity, that's the ability to focus.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
That's you get much better at.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Doing what you're doing because you hone your skills and
just through raw horsepower ten thousand hours of practice, you
get much better at it. So everybody is listening to
us right now, and who's a financial planner, a lawyer,
a doctor, all the people that want to be better leaders,
you know, business leaders, or you know even people who
are not in traditional businesses, but they got a lot
of responsibilities.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
They get better and better and better.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Through the twenties and thirties just based on their hard
work and personal responsibility. All of those abilities, based on
your ability to solve problems, innovate, remember things. Those all
peak in your late thirties or early forties and start
to decline.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Now I have to stop you there, because that is
the part of the book where everybody goes what late twenties, thirties,
you know that, you know, everybody's thinking no, forties.
Speaker 4 (12:41):
And fifties, yeah, or sixties.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, yeah, But this is an important revelation. And to
acknowledge that anyway didn't mean I just didn't want to
know by that, because people are going to think, did
I hear that correctly?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I know? Thirty nine is the magic age.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Thirty nine is the is the is the that the
year of highest productivity and quality? Or for surgeons, financial planners,
Wall Street brokers, for electricians, for judges, for classical musicians.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
For writers.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
I mean, I've just it's just it's uncanny scientists, thirty nine,
thirty years again, you're over the hill at well, no, no,
you're at your max at thirty nine.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
The problem is then you're over the hill. You're on
the long side of the hill.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
And the key thing is you can be pretty close
to the top of your game, but if you're not
getting better, you don't like it. God made us to
make progress. That's how he wired us to make progress.
You know, keep going, keep going. You wanted us to
keep going across the Sinai and get into the Promised
Land and the milk Land of milk and honey and
be like, hey, it's pretty good in the Sinai.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Let's stay here. Huh.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
That's not how God made us, that's my view, but
that's actually how how evolutionary biologists understand the human species
as well. That's the reason that my dentist at forty three,
she's a great dentist. She's the best dentist in town.
She stopped working Fridays.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And started golfing. It's like, do you like golfing? Says
and not. I hate golfing, but I got to do
something because I'm so burnt out. How are you burnt out?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
The reason is she didn't know it. She's still great.
She wasn't making progress, she was making regress. That's the
bad news. That's the two by four across the chops
that you talked about in the first chapter.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Of this book. Okay, now the good news.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
There's a second intelligence curve that comes in behind it
that you get better and better and better at in
your forties and fifties and sixties, and you stay high
in your seventies and eighties and nineties. If you've got
your marbles. That's called crystallized intelligence. That does not require
working memory. Thank god, I can't remember anything anymore. It
does not require innovative capacity. What it requires is pattern
(14:38):
recognition and good judgment and tons of wisdom. In other words,
when you're in your twenties and thirties, you can solve
any problem. When you're in your fifties and sixties, you
know which problems to solve. You know, in your twenties
and thirties you're the hot shot. In your fifties and sixties,
you can identify the next generation of hot shots. That's
why you should be a startup entrepreneur at thirty five,
(14:58):
and you should be a venture capitalists at sixty. You
should be the you know, the the star litigator at
thirty five. You should be the managing partner.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
At sixty five. That's what exploits these.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Different intelligence curves. Here's the problem, Andy, everybody who's got
this unbelievably high fluid intelligence and hard work and just
offering it up and just digging it, man, they want
to stay on that curve forever, and they end up
surfing that curve all the way back down through the
forties and fifties and wondering what's wrong with them?
Speaker 4 (15:27):
Answer?
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Nothing, You got to get on the next curve, even
if it's hard, even if it's scary, And that's what
this book is, how to do it?
Speaker 4 (15:34):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Before we continue, as I mentioned at the top of
the broadcast, our sponsor Balay is offering their leadership Toolkit
free to our listeners. With it, you'll learn steps you
can take as a leader to accomplish more and juggle less. Again,
just text the word Andy A n D Y to
five five one two three. That's Andy to five to
five one two three to get access to this toolkit,
and in no time you will be back to doing
(15:56):
what only you can do, which is growing your organization.
So practically speaking, so what if you could kind of
condense and let me just say to our listeners, regardless
of how good this conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Is, you got to get this book. We're skipping over
so much stuff.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
But anyway, the majority of folks listening are probably between
twenty five and fifty five, So what is kind of
the takeaway as they think about second half happiness or
again making the jump from a fluid to crystallized intelligence.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So the key thing is if you get on your
second curve, then you will be happier than you were
in the first part of your life. Greater happiness is
in your future, by the way, a better marriage is
in your future. A better relationship with your kids is
in your future, a better a better understanding of your.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Relationship with God is in your future.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
But you got to get on that second curve because
that's your's that's when you're in the zone of your
maximum effectiveness, and that's when you're living up to what
you can uniquely do well.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
It takes humility because you have to step back from it.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
It requires that you exhibit a lot of virtues like
you know, as I said, humility, but also a whole
lot of courage, a whole lot of ability to say,
this isn't going to go in the right direction, but
I'm confident that there's something better in my future. Okay,
then there's a whole bunch of things to do. There's
a whole bunch of things to do that makes it
easier and more fun to begin with.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Make this thing sound fun for us, please?
Speaker 4 (17:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
The number one thing that people get wrong when they're
stuck on their first curve. When they're stuck trying to
do what they always did, and it's getting harder and
more boring and more turgid, and they hate it. The
one thing that all have in common is that they
think that they're going to be happier if they're doing more,
getting more, experiencing more, meeting more people, having.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
More and more and more and more of everything.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
What all people who are really good at getting older
have in common, who get older and are happier having
common is they start to master the art of subtraction
as opposed to addition. You know, one of the things
that we find is that everybody on the first curve,
they satisfaction comes to them as as a function of
all the things that they have, and they're four for more.
Satisfaction is having more. That doesn't just mean more money.
(18:03):
It also means more power, and more experiences and more relationships,
and more prestige and more admiration and more agulation more.
But the key thing that everybody learns who masters this
is that your satisfaction is a function of all the
things that you have, divided by all the things that
you want. In other words, say that again, yeah, haves
(18:26):
divided by wants.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
Now think about that's a fraction.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
That model is very important because one way to have
more satisfaction is to have more, but that's inefficient when
you've got a lot already. That numerator is huge. What
you need is to be efficient is to start managing
your wants. If you start decreasing the denominator, decreasing your wants,
you're going to find so.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Much more satisfaction than you've had in the past.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
Every year on your birthday after forty five, you should
have a reverse bucket list all the stuff that you're
not going to be attached to anymore, all the things
that you're going to give away, all the things that
are distracting you from the things that you really want.
The better marriage that you need, the greater worship that
you need, the understanding of your life that you need.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
This is being distracted by the.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Stuff, the toxic relationships, the dumb things that you do
every day, the ambitions that are weighing you down.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
All of the people on.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
The second curve who are really successful and happy, what
they have in common is that they have a subtraction
strategy about their own lives as opposed to just an
edition strategy.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
And that is so not intuitive.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Totally totally man.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
I mean, well, let me just tell you a break
through moment for me as I was reading this book,
because it falls into that category. You tell a story
about I don't know if these were your words you
used to describe this man, or if this was his words,
I can't remember, but essentially you were explaining this to
someone and they just weren't willing to do it, and
essentially you said on their behalf or they said that
(19:55):
I'm going to read this to you, that they would
rather be special than happy. Yeah, they would rather be
special than happy. When I read that, for the first
time in my life, I was willing to acknowledge that
I like being special and that that could be the
thing that in my refusal to give up the you
know what I'm doing, where I'm doing, and who I know,
(20:17):
why I get invited all that stuff. I went home
until Sandra I said listen to this, and I've gotten
up in front of our entire staff and talked about
this to say, hey, I don't think I was ever
willing to admit to myself how addicted I am to
being special, but that trade off special to happy, I mean.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Talk a little gag about that. Yeah, it's an absolute
game changer. So one of the things that it's worth
keeping in mind. A lot of people, you know, they're
not big hippies listening to us, but they have kind
of the hippie mantra that if it feels good, do it.
That if something really you really really want something, if
you follow your instincts, it must be because that's going
to make you happier.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
That's wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Mother nature only has two goals for you and me
and everybody listening to us. She wants you to survive
and pass on your genes. She does not care if
you're happy. Happy is not selected in evolutionary terms, it's
just not now if we think about it, for those
of us who are people of faith, you've got animal
nature and you've got divine nature. If you just do
what feels good, you're following your animal nature and you're
(21:17):
going to pass on your genes and you're gonna survive.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Your divine nature.
Speaker 3 (21:21):
Is to bring you closer to the source of good
in your life, and that's what's going to bring happiness.
And that means you're gonna have to do a lot
of things that don't feel natural.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Look, sin feels natural. Sin doesn't feel unnatural.
Speaker 3 (21:32):
The problem is sin is the most natural thing, right,
That's what it means to be fallen. But the point
is that we rebel against our nature, and that's what
brings us to divinity. That's what brings us to we're
really supposed to be as people. Okay, now back to
the whole conundrum, the story that you're talking about.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
I was talking to this woman my age on Wall Street.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
She's, you know, I'm in my late fifties and she's
in her late fifties and she's killing it.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
Dude.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
I mean she's she's made probably a billion dollars, she
has a firm named after her. She's just she's doing
everything right. Okay, but you talk to her and she says, yeah,
are you happy?
Speaker 4 (22:06):
No? Why not?
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Well, my husband and I were roommates. I think I
have a kind of a cordial relationship with my kids.
I'm not making crisp decisions in my firm.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I don't like it as much as I used to,
but I don't know what else to do. I'm drinking
too much. The doctor has given me bad reports.
Speaker 4 (22:24):
What do I do? Professor?
Speaker 3 (22:25):
And I'm like, you don't need a Harvard nerd to
tell you what to do. You know, you know exactly
what to do.
Speaker 4 (22:30):
You just told me. Step back from your firm, take.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
A souvenir in your company, go away with your husband,
get back into church. Got alcoholics anonymous? Come on, man,
what are you doing?
Speaker 4 (22:39):
Why? She says? You know, I know, I say, so
why not?
Speaker 3 (22:43):
And she says, because I always chose to be special
rather than happy boom man my job, because I'm not
going to kid y andy. Me too, me too, And
she said it was like it was like a knife
to my heart. You know, I can't tell you I
was I was a CEO before I did this, before
I was teaching at Harvard.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
And I can't tell you the number of nights.
Speaker 3 (23:04):
That I worked the fourteenth hour as opposed to going
for the first hour with my children. And I missed
those years they grew up. Now I don't have to
repeat those errors because in two weeks I'm going to
be a grandfather.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
You probably already are, right, just four months ago, beautiful yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
And with my adult children, by the way, each one
of them spends time with me every day, whether they
like it or not. And part of the reason is
because I'm gonna be happy. I'm gonna be happy as
opposed to continuing to be special in this particular way.
But if you follow your animal nature, if you follow
your instincts and your urges, you will always choose special.
(23:40):
And if you choose special, you're simply not gonna have
the happiness that comes. And the happiness comes because of love.
Specialness comes because of achievement. Happiness comes because of love.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
That's amazing. You touched on this earlier.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
One of the obstacles to even moving into this direction
is our pride or our lack of humility. I wrote
down two quotes from the book that again I just
carried around on my notes, So just comment on these.
To share your weakness without carrying what other people think
is kind of a superpower. To share your weakness without
carrying what other people think is kind of a superpower.
And the second one was this sharing weakness is the
(24:16):
ultimate subversion against your special, objectified self. The concept of
an objectified self is so powerful. And I've never heard
that phrase before, but that's exactly what we do, objectify ourselves,
and that makes me special. And I have to maintain
special in around and round and round, I go and
talk about that whole humility thing, because you know, it
(24:39):
takes humility to step off the treadmill.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Totally, totally, but that humility is truly one of the
great game changing things that and again, I mean we
learned this in every philosophy and theology class, that you
know you're driven toward these vices and that the heavenly
virtues that accompany them don't feel natural, and yet they
are what actually will bring blis.
Speaker 4 (25:00):
Is what it comes down to. Humility is a perfect case.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
The deadliest of the deadly sins in Dante's Inferno is pride,
you know, and how does pride work. You're holding yourself
up as something unbelievably special all the time, and you
will live in fear. You will live an absolute, mortified
fear of anything that threatens your ego or threatens your
vision of who you're supposed to be as a person. Now,
(25:22):
we all grew up, I mean most of us grew
up in good families. And my father would have said,
it's a grave sin for you to objectify a woman,
for you to reduce a woman to her physical characteristics
and her good looks, and then use her in any
way that sinful will be unto you. I'm sure your
father taught you the same thing, and we're trying to
teach our sons the same thing, and yet we do
that to ourselves, not physically. In the contrary, you say, Okay,
(25:46):
why am I a workaholic? Why am I workholic? Because
I'm addicted to success? Why am I addicted to success?
Because I just want to be the special one? What
is the special one? The rich CEO? That's the special one.
That is an object that is reducing myself to my job,
characteristics and my money. And that is a sinful thing
to do. Plus it will make me miserable. So what
(26:08):
do you have to do? You have to say, basically,
I'm just a guy. I'm just a guy. You know,
I'm just a guy like any other person. And to
declare your humility and your weakness. This is Saint Paul's
characteristic insight. He said, when I'm weak, I am strong.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
In the Epistles of Paul, you know, when he's talking
to the Corinthians about the thorn in his flesh, he's
admitting that he's just mortal. He's admitting that he's not strong.
Why because he wants to he wants to connect himself
in a mortal way. The shortest verse in the Bible
is John eleven thirty five two words Jesus wept why
(26:46):
because he was connecting himself at the weakest point to
what it meant to be a person. And yet I'm
so special, I'm so strong, I'm so awesome that I
couldn't even live up to the standard of my savior
In John eleven thirty five.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
That's craziness. That is complete craziness.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
So here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (27:05):
If you can break through that veil, if you can
get there, man, if you can get through it and
say I'm weak, I'm.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
Not so special.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I just it's interesting. I just did this analysis, did
this research. Can I write this call in The Atlantic
every week? And I just wrote this column. It's going
to come out in a few weeks, maybe about the
time that this episode airs, about why is it that
so many young people are miserable today? And they answer
fundamentally is that they're lonely and they're isolated, and they
don't have romance. They're a third less likely to be
in love than we were in the nineteen eighties when
(27:35):
we were that age. Why and The answer is because
they have attachment of avoidance. It's an attachment style that
psychologists call avoidant attachment. Why and the reason is because
they have been told their whole lives that they're the
special one.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
When you're the special one, so a.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Force field against loving others and being loved.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Everybody in our studio is dying laughing. That's pretty brilliant.
It is a say that again. The feeling of being
special is a force field against.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
It's a force field against loving and being loved. It's
like your plexi glass shield against the things that you
most want. So you're walking around saying, I'm so lowly,
I just want to find a partner, I just want love,
and somebody comes towards you and they bump into your
specialness that play.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
And you bump into theirs too, if both people are
trying to be most special.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, it's not you work.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
It's like late on the line, man, late on the line,
that you're weak and you need love and you're lonely,
and it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, let's all say it together. I'm pathetic and so
are you right, that's right.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Love me the way I am and by the way,
they will, they will be the way that you are.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
So any sort of high level tips about discovering your
crystallized intelligence. You have so much in the book about
how to figure out what's next based on because they're connected,
the fluid intelligence crystallized, they're connected.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
Absolutely, so good.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
The fluid intellig is interesting because it's your instructor curve.
Think about it as your your Your fluid intelligence is
your Mark Zuckerberg innovation curve. Your crystallized intelligence is your
professor curve. That's where you share your knowledge, That's where
you share your wisdom.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Now, what are you going to be.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Good at identifying talent, finding patterns using your experience. That's
what it comes down to. So the way to think
about this is, in my world, whatever it happens to be,
I used to be inventing new things. I want to
find the next group of people that are going to
be inventing new things. I want to be helping the
next group of people that are going to be working hard.
(29:36):
I want to find some way to become a teacher.
Now that means different things for different people. As I
mentioned before, you know, a venture capitalist is a teacher
of young entrepreneurs. You're teaching with this podcast, you couldn't
have done such a good I mean, this podcast.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Has millions of listeners.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
If you had done this thirty years ago, when you
were in your early thirties, this would not been successful.
I mean maybe you were that good. But you know what,
the reason that this is important is because you're talking
to me, and every question you're asking me, I can
tell it. I can tell what you're doing right now
because you're a master teacher. You're trying to draw answers
(30:14):
out of me that are going to teach the people
who are listening to us. You are on your teaching curve.
That's why this is the right thing for you to do. Okay,
every single person listening to us, who's going from in
from the thirties to their forties to their fifties, say,
what is the teaching version of me? Maybe it's literally teaching.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
That's a great question.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
I quit my job as the CEO and became a professor.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
What is the teaching version of me?
Speaker 4 (30:39):
That's the question.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
And you think that everyone can discover an answer to
that question.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Every single person you're going from your parent curve to
your grandparent curve. Think about it that way, right, where
you're you know, you're you're sitting in a rocking chair
saying profound things as opposed to running around trying to
solve every problem.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
I mean, this is there's a there's a version of this.
Speaker 3 (30:58):
And interestingly, you know, I talk to a lot of
people and people about this, and a lot of people
will ask me, how is it different.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Than men and women?
Speaker 3 (31:04):
And it's a very interesting difference between the two. Women
are much better at getting on their crystallized intelligence curves now,
especially women who had a more conventional first half of
their life. So for example, women who stayed home with
their kids and raised their families and use their fluid
intelligence curves to raise their kids, they have a very
seamless way. They find a lot of ease and stepping
(31:25):
onto their crystallized intelligence curve because sometimes it's the first
time that they've worked full time outside the home, and
so they just go and do what people want them
to do, and they're naturally good at. Meanwhile, their husbands
are depressed and having a hard time. They're like, I
don't know, man, it used to because I'm so burned out,
I'm so depressed.
Speaker 4 (31:41):
And their wives are.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Like, yeah, I don't know, man, I've had a great
time here. Life is pretty sweet. So there's a there's
a path for everybody. For some people, it's harder, and
the more successfully you're on your fluid intelligence curve, the
harder it's going to be to have this confidence, which
means you're gonna have to put your heart into it,
and offered.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Up, Wow, well as you could tell, I could talk
to you all afternoon.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
And this book, I know you've written ten other books
that I get that right, So I mean, who's counting?
Speaker 4 (32:10):
I mean you mean good books or bad books written on.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Some other You've written some other books.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
But this book is a gift to all the striver
And that's the words you use in the book, the strivers,
So for all the strivers out there, content junkies, trying
to get it better, trying to go forward.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And I think what Arthur said are we are created
to make progress.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
We're created to move things forward, and that's the natural
thing we need to lean into. And this is not
a matter of not making any more progress. It's just
getting off the first phase of progress to really make
more progress. The way that we were wired that's best
connected to that first half you've given us a lot
to think about. So I've loved this conversation. I know
(32:50):
our podcast listeners have as well. Unfortunately we run out
of time, so thanks so much for being here and
to all our listeners.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Please pick up a copy of From.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Strength to Strength by Arthur Brooks, and be sure you
visit the Indie Stanley dot com website where you can
download a leadership podcast application guide that includes a summary
of this discussion and questions for reflection for you and
your entire team. And don't forget to join us next
month on the Andy Stanley Leadership Podcast
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.