Why So Many Former Christians Are Still Haunted by the Rapture

What if the darkest seasons of your life were preparing you for the greatest breakthrough? In this conversation, TruthSeekah, Arien and Drew uncover raw stories of depression, transformation, and divine encounters that challenge how we see art, faith, and God’s mysterious timing.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
What's up, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome back to the podcast.
We have a guest in studio. But before hey, not yet, Ellen,
before we get to that. Before we get to that,
we got some announcements to me.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Er if you will. So.

Speaker 3 (00:14):
The first one we want to remind you guys, in
about four weeks or so, we're going to be in Anderson,
South Carolina for our retreat October second through the fifth.
It's a Thursday through Sunday. If you get an email
or see anything with other dates, just ignore it. The
dates are October second through October fifth. That is the

(00:34):
correct dates. You have the right flights. Don't worry. You
did a good job.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
But if you.

Speaker 3 (00:39):
Don't have your tickets, go ahead and get your tickets.
There's only just a couple remaining and we're going to
have a great time. If you want any details on
the event, you can go to see your dot school
and see all of that there.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, if you'd like to kick it with the Mystic,
we would love to have you there. We're going to
be doing a concert sound bath, sound healing, very relaxing.
We're going to be spending some time in nature. Our
good friend Nicholas Hubbard is going to be there leading
prophetic frenzy. What is that about? We're going to find
out together. But I know it's going to be a static,
it's gonna be bliss, and it's going to be refreshing.
So if you're looking for this pivotal moment in your

(01:13):
life to reset, to refresh, and to renew, these events
are the best place to do that. That's why we
started doing them personally for ourselves, and we just invite
our friends with us, So we'd love to see you there.
And Anderson, South Carolina, without further ado, we're gonna welcome
our good friend Drew Gower to the podcast. He's at

(01:35):
my house. Was a what hey, man, we go back.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Go way back. You're definitely thankful.

Speaker 1 (01:44):
Let me see what I can say so, Drew, if
I can give it like a formal introduction of who
you are to me. You're a good friend. We've met
years ago, probably at a concert. Right We was in
the local metal scene and you were in Master's Commission,
and every now and then somebody would get a wild
hair and take the youth from Master's Commission to a

(02:08):
concert because there was a Christian rock band performing, for sure,
and we met there. Sometimes you guys would have to
leave if a secular band played, It's.

Speaker 2 (02:15):
Right, or if there was any kind of swearing or anything.
You know, absolutely that's where we met.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah, I was swearing. Yeah, he's that rapper and skinny
jeans up there playing the guitar.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yeah, that was wild. Was that twenty years now? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:32):
Yeah, it's been a long time, twenty three years.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
I do remember that. Yeah, just going to those shows,
meeting kids, and I know that's where me, you and
I met just kind of like hit it off right
away just through love of music and love of God
and kind of been in each other's lives ever since.
So it's been an honor.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Been friends ever since. We you know, you you'd come
to I mean, we're friends. You would come to prayer
meetings that we'd host, you'd come to Bible studies, you'd
come to birthday parties. We formed a band together, Prayers
Fly Like Bullets, which was a short lived, amazing time.

(03:15):
You know, a lot of fun we did, had like
a rap core band.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah, it was really really good times. I was talking
to Ain earlier about some of those times and she
was just like, man, I don't even remember some of
that it feels like a lifetime ago. And just you know,
from the time that you and I have met and
the journeys that we've kind of like gone through, and
you know, the things that we've experienced up to this point.

(03:43):
You know, it's I could write a whole slew of books,
you know, just from life experience and growing older with
each other and her families, our wives, god, you know,
you know, man, it's it's been a wild read.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
And I so we'll say that like with my journey
where I've been from in this life and being in
a band with you and being a gospel rapper and
just kind of coming into my own over the years,
and what ministry looked like, what music would look like
in lieu of awakening, you know, and expansion of beliefs

(04:24):
and heart expansion. It begins to look a lot different
than what we thought it would look like. And I
want to say that you've been in my corner as
a friend over the years, encouraging me no matter where
I was. It's kind of always in my ear, letting
me know that I was on the right path, and
just little timely words of encouragement that's kind of kept

(04:45):
me looking in the right direction. So I want to
say thank you. And you've definitely sewed into me and
my family tremendously over the years by just always being there,
being a friend for me, and whether it was you know,
you moved away, it was still always little text you
always watch and always letting me know that I was
up next, my turn was coming, and it came andutes
here and you know what I'm saying, So thank you

(05:07):
for believing in me, you know, and even though you're
not you know, you know, in the band and doing
music and stuff, you just believed in me. Yeah, And
I believe in you, And I just won't say thank
you for.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
That, of course, dude. Like like I said, it's an
owner just knowing you and your family, like you know,
watching Vay grow up and all that, you know, Nave
his daughter, but just through the everything. And I could say,
you know, the exact same thing and piggyback off of
everything that you just said. But you know, I agree

(05:38):
one hundred percent. I don't believe anything happens just because.
And you know when you say that, like you take
everything with saying that you know, the good, the bad,
and everything that comes in your way, but you your
family has been like a really firm foundation in our
family's lives for many years. And I'm amazed at what

(06:01):
God has done in my life through you and your life.
But he's not over, you know. I was telling you
that this morning, Like you know, everything that we've I
think we've learned up to this point and all everything
that God has given us, like it's it's just in
preparation for what's next. You know, our best days or

(06:23):
truly ahead of us, you know, goals, hope, s, dreams.
God knows every one of them. He's heard every one
of them, and whether or not we even notice them,
he notices them too, And he'll even answer the prayers
we don't ask sometimes, So it's a huge blessing.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, you put out a book, man, time is something
with twenty seventeen. Everything happened in twenty seventeen. Yeah, we
always go back to that date. Yeah, you put out
a book then. Yeah, it was regarding your weight loss
journey and just life and depression. And you got to
meet Diamond Dallas Pages Yeah DDP yoga and he flew

(07:07):
you out and it's wild yeah, wild life.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, it definitely even that experience feels like a lifetime ago.
But yeah, I went through a great change around twenty
seventeen put the book out. I know you and I
were kind of like collabing for a little bit, you know,
regarding that. You helped me out tremendously through that whole
process as well, like with the book and getting it

(07:32):
out there and everything else, and you know, just a
huge encouragement in that area too. But you know, even
with that, like when I wrote that book, it was
almost like felt like I was writing like an autobiography,
Like it wasn't the end, it was just the beginning,
you know, And even now as I look at my

(07:52):
life and through the things that I've gone through and
learned through that experience, and even it's still continuing, like
learned today. Like it's it's this big process from something
that we can't see of the finish line too, but
it's there and whether or not we have the light
to be able to continue more like moving forward, or

(08:16):
I tell myself all the time, like, well if God
opens the door, well I've learned that whether or not
God opens that door, like in your life, you just
keep walking anyway. Yeah for sure.

Speaker 3 (08:27):
So yeah, it's crazy what we were talking about, like
the past. It doesn't really exist only in memory. Right
in the future doesn't really exist only in your hopes
or you know, on the counter side, your worries and
your anxieties, and all we have is right now in
the present, and kind of just confirms that narrative that

(08:50):
all of this, these lifetimes that it feels like we've
lived in the past so many I feel like I've
lived so many lives already in this one lifetime, in
this one body, But there's been so many different versions
of myself, and I guess the goal would be just
to try to hold on to the lessons and the

(09:11):
good stuff and take it into the next chapter.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
You know.

Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, that's hard because you always are like haunted by
the better version, and sometimes in your head it's like,
you know, six years ago, that was three years ago
or however long. It's like, man, that was the that
was my peak, Like that was peak. But it's like,
you know what, it's interesting because if we go back there,
we had still had so many flaws in those kind
of things, right, And there's things of character flaws and

(09:37):
things you did that was stupid that you never do now, right,
So it's like the journey has still prepared. You so
like to look back and fantasize about what was you know,
you know what you had that because seasons changed, you know,
and a lot of people do that, they get stuck
especially with and you know, Christianity or relationship with God.

(09:58):
You know, I used to pray more, I used to
worship with all my mind, used to dance before God.
I wish I still had that in a sense and stuff,
but there were still things in you that were like,
weren't good that God has been working out in this process.
So I think it's healthy to look ahead, but sometimes
it could be hard. When we've lived so many different lives.
It feels like right because we've been you know, so

(10:19):
many places and so many ventures and stuff like that.
But to keep looking forward sometimes it's it's hard to
be optimistic because you romanticize about the past. So I
think what I'm trying to say is, you know, try
to romanticize about the future and what can be because
once you if you're able to see it, make those

(10:40):
changes and you're able to bring it into the now moment.
And you know, that's something that a lot of people
struggle with. We've always you know, we've all struggled with that.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
I mean, the hardest saying I think for anybody is
to forgive themselves. You know, like regret is such a
double edged sword in your life you feel allowed to
be like, it'll truly like disabled you and it'll keep
you from going into that next step if you continue
to compare yourself to a different version of yourself, who

(11:11):
honestly like whether or not that that version probably wasn't
your best version either. In fact, I could probably guarantee
you it wasn't. It might look to you that way
because man, we were doing this and I got picturing
that and I definitely looked.

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Yeah, absolutely, but still the pictures don't speak about what
was going on.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
And I was lacking, Like I wasn't good to his
wife that I wasn't I had no patience with this kid,
with his kids. I think I was very egotistical, something
which isn't really a trade of mind, but I allowed
it to be. And you know, that's I think the
biggest battle is number one, forgiving yourself, but also allowing

(11:55):
yourself the courage to keep moving and to figure out
the rest of it, you know, not to be bogged
down by what could have or should have happened, but
it did happen. I'm gonna do my best to learn
from it and be better because of it. Is that's
what not only everybody around me deserves, but that's what

(12:16):
I deserve. I deserve acceptance, you know. I mean if
we offered her ourselves the same love and forgiveness that
we offer others, I mean, we'll truly change ourselves from
the inside out.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah. I saw a really cool saying. I think it
was just like a meme on Facebook or something, but
it said, You've got to stop comparing yourself to others
or in this case, even former versions of yourself, because
flowers are beautiful and sunsets are beautiful, and neither one

(12:55):
looks anything like the other. Right, So, I think that
we can find beauty in all of our experiences. And
it comes down to a word that has been a
little hard for me to learn in the past two years,
is integration. Right, Like, we have these insane highs with
God and the Spirit and insane moments where like we're

(13:16):
walking through Greece just thinking, oh my God, I can't
believe we're here, you know, super high moments, and then
you have moments where you're struggling to you know, pay
the bills and you don't know where the next you
know finances are coming from, and it looks a little bleak,
and just being able to balance and integrate all of

(13:36):
it and still trust God through the process and trust
that you know, God never leaves us or forsakes us.
In the bad moments, He's there and the good He
Jesus himself said if you make your bed in hell,
like I'll be there. So just to know, like life
is like a roller coaster, you have highs and lows,

(13:57):
but you know God and Jesus there with you through
it all and being able to integrate it all into
yourself and just absorb it into the now and into
the person that you are today. Forgiving yourself is definitely,
I think.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
The hardest part.

Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah, absolutely, But I think that's why we are commanded
to love your neighbor as yourself. You have to do.
It's easier to love your neighbor for some reason, but
we have to learn how to truly love ourself even
in our mess and love that version of ourselfs because
they were doing the best they could with the tools
they had, you know, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
Where like your your walk with God. Where did that start? Like?
How old were you? Do you even want to go
to like a master's commission and stuff like that as
a teenager.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
So you know, honestly, I was raised in church. My
parents both went to Bible College. They, I think, like
most of us, thought that they were created to change
the world. You know, we have this burning desire in
us to like change everything around us and change the

(15:09):
world once we become a Christian. Ultimately, God just wants
to change us, and I think if he does that,
everything else so changed through us to us. But I
was raised in church, you know, all the way through,
went to Christian School and did everything I think, you know,

(15:31):
Christians think you should do as far as growing up
in church, doing all the right things, going to youth group.
You know, not quite understanding it even, you know, from
a big adult standpoint now looking back on it, really
dealing with deep things that I didn't really understand, like

(15:53):
the idea of having in hell at five years old,
trying to make friends with God by asking and it
turned my bedroom light off, and you know, not having
this great understanding but knowing that I had to believe
in it and some of that, you know, even Now,
I think as we get older as Christians, we deconstructed

(16:16):
a little bit and really looking too. Okay, now, who
really was Jesus in my life? Because ultimately, like you know,
growing up in church, you get fed all these legalisms
and laws and things like that, like it's important to
do this, important to do that, that we lose track
inside of who Jesus really wanted us to be, you know,

(16:37):
love and capassion for our neighbors like we were you
know saying earlier. But ultimately, I you know, wanted to
serve God because I saw my parents do it religiously.
I saw the sacrifices that they made. I saw and
like knew what it really meant to lay your life

(17:03):
down for what you believed in, physically, mentally, financially, all
of that and not ask for anything in return. M hm.
So you know with that, I definitely credit my parents.
You know, going to Bible College, I mean that was
through youth group. We were going to the Browns for

(17:24):
Revival for many years back when it was really popular.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
That was really lost the anointing.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Yeah it went away. Yeah, you know, honestly, that whole
revival even years after it went away, it was like
they were trying to create something that had left the
building years ago, as humans do. Yeah, that's what we do,
you know, just hoping God will be there.

Speaker 1 (17:50):
But it catch lightning in a bottle.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah. But ultimately, through the revival, you know, our youth
group wint quite a few times, and that's where I
was called to the ministry. You know, I do believe
that that was, you know, one of the few times
in my life that I know that like God spoke
to me, like this was something I knew I had
to do.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Well, you got you got saved that Toby.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Mac concert did.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
I heard his testimony in it.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
You know, man, it just changed my world from the
ground up.

Speaker 1 (18:24):
It's the inside joke. Guys. Always you may hear a
couple inside joy. We may try to backtrack and tell
you what it means if we can.

Speaker 4 (18:33):
But yeah, but yeah, man, ultimately, and you know, looking
back even on that, that that whole situation, I mean,
with different colored glasses on, you can make anything.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Out of that. You know, if you have any kind
of experience, you can look at the good or you
can look at the bad, and you can choose what
you're going to take away from that, and ultimately I
mean I met my wife through that whole situation, Like
I saw the world. God did things inside of me
that even to this day, like I'm amazed by and
things for me as well, Like I became a man,

(19:12):
you know, and not because I turned a certain age,
but because God showed me who he wanted me to be.
And that's who I became through it.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
So when you was in a Master's commission, y'all did
what did? Y'all mainly do human videos?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
So I mean Master's commission itself is it's a nine
month disciple chip program, but basically what it is is
hands on ministry. So you lay down nine months in
your life. You said, okay, God, I'm gonna give this
a year to you. You go away to a Bible program.
You know, everybody's there is you know in your age

(19:52):
ish and it's you know, college age eighteen to twenty
five ish. But ultimately you're laying that year down. You
go to a lot of like missionary trips things like that,
a lot of church versus school assemblies. I don't know
if you're familiar like with the Power Team or things
like that, but we would do you know, feats of power,

(20:15):
and you know in.

Speaker 1 (20:17):
Public school you were ripping phone books back.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Yeah, well I never did the phone books, but like
the better nails you did. That's nice, better nails. Breaking bricks,
things like that, bottles, bottles of bottles, blow them up
really yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Hey we have one here.

Speaker 2 (20:37):
No, no, the to sleight of hand, well you always
they always rubbed them on the cinder blocks. So then yeah,
then come up.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, and they would blow up like like pop. Yeah,
kids falling out either and we had either from exhaustion
or the glory.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
I don't know a quick I had to tell the story.
So the first time it fell out, I want to
say it was in GM school. Was somebody we did
here in Alabama. Well, we did a school assembly and uh,
it was my first time ever breaking bricks. And they
had him like set up on these cunderblocks and it
was a forearm bricks. He just bring your form over it.

(21:20):
You hit him, and that's fat. Everybody goes nuts. That
was my first time with this new program. It was
the one I met my wife in. And this guy
behind me, the lead, the director, he goes, he goes,
make some noise when you break the bricks, you know,
get rolled loud, and I was like, okay. Well, unbeknownst
to me, about two weeks before we had showed up,

(21:42):
they had put a brand new gymnasium floor in this gym,
and that's where we were doing the brakes on. They'd
pulled out all these tarps and mats and everything, and
they're like, okay, use these. Well, my break was right
in the front center, and so it came time for
me to break, and they the countdown three, two, one,
and I come down and hit him and I break

(22:04):
them all and I did everything I was supposed to
except I got you know, he got me all amped up,
and I'm all excited. So I pick up both of
the front bricks. I just throw them and I just bounced.
And as soon as I started to bounce, everybody was
going nuts. As soon as starting to bounce, everybody went silent.

(22:24):
And you can literally just hear all the way back,
all the way down to the basketball floor. Oh my goodness,
Like I'll never forget that. The tractor behind me was like,
grab them. We got all upset.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
Did you have a headband one when you did that?

Speaker 2 (22:42):
No?

Speaker 1 (22:43):
I can just see you shirt headband.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Your head probably should have ate kid.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Yeah, Rex Taekwondo. Jesus. We watched it a documentary recently.
If you haven't seen it, you may may want to.
It would probably resonate with you. For real. What was
the name of it.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
It's about Team Mania.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Okay, yeah, so yeah, it's.

Speaker 1 (23:12):
Exactly. And it was showing it from like a different perspective,
behind the scenes perspective, and then what the kids really
went through. And some of the human videos got to
where like the kids playing Jesus were like really getting
punched and were telling them like, hey, I want you
I want to go through what he went through, and
I want you to They talk about like getting just

(23:34):
going through it was like, you know, hell, you know,
to play the part of Jesus. And then when they
got real militant, like in the end, they would like
do like military training with the kids to be militant,
like a soldier for God, worrior for good. It's pretty wild.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
There's a real big military type stigma with the whole
Christian thing, you know, like I don't remember when I
was a kid, they did the oh I'm in the
Lord Army, you know. I mean, you know, little girls
like I may never shoot the artillery and all that
kind of stuff, and you think about some of those words,
it's like, wow, it's like there's a lot of deeper

(24:13):
explanation behind what we're actually singing. You know.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah, it was it looked like it changed and got
a lot more serious, like around nine to eleven. Yeah,
like more militant and war focused and stuff and protecting
and standing up for the Gospel and even like I
think Columbine and stuff like that like kind of changed that.
And it almost like they capitalized off of these events

(24:38):
to hype the people up and get the people to
rally behind I guess an enemy if you will, or
something like we're gonna be warriors for God because there's
a real enemy out there kind of thing. But it's
an interesting documentary.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yeah, that's crazy. I would have to to watch it.
My brother actually went to quite a few of those
the Fire conferences.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
We watched them on TV a lot.

Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, it's conflicting to watch it as a parent because
when we were young, like around the age of twenty
and you know, very much into all that and Fox's
Book of Martyrs and like we were raised up like
what an honor to die for your faith? You know,
like it would be scary, but yeah, I'm ready to
do it. But then as a parent watching these teenagers

(25:23):
saying that they wanted to die for their faith and stuff,
it's it's a little different and it's kind of scary.
It's almost like it almost felt like they were all brainwashed. Yeah,
but it's like, no, that was me, and I surely
I was brainwashed.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
You know, we're looking at it from a different lens. Yeah,
those kids are asto, Like, hey, you were one of
those kids.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
You know, glorified it for a while. I remember, like
remember the Jesus Jesus freak books where yes, it would
have like stories and stuff of Christian martyrrism and things
like that, Like it was really glorified. And you know,
not that that's you know, there's anything wrong with that,
but I feel like your first your first aspiration, as

(26:08):
you know, a father of Jesus shouldn't be the I
want to go ahead and die for him right away,
right like I want to live for him right.

Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah. That was that was always with me. Is like
that thing because a lot of the people who said
they will die for the faith, and it's like you
won't even live for it exactly. So how about if
we get to living part down, then it's a no
brainer that would probably die for right, you know kind
of thing. I always look at it that way.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
That's wow.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a lot of people
talking about that, especially with deconstruction or whatever. It's like
you hear stories which I didn't grow up in that,
you know, that came you know, seventeen years old, maybe
getting into that kind of youth group stuff like that.
But you hear the stories of the kids who did,

(27:00):
and hear these horror stories of like them coming home
from school early and the mom and dad aren't there,
and their brothers and sisters aren't there, and they're the
only one. They're thinking that the rapture happened, and they
kind of go into panic mode, thinking that they've been
left behind because that whole you know, propaganda Christian you know,
with those movies and stuff. You know, you know, like

(27:21):
you said, like five years old, like wondering if I died,
if the Devil's going to keep me for all eternity
and stuff. At five years old.

Speaker 2 (27:28):
It's wild they even brought that up. I mean, I
have a vivid memory of maybe when I was six
or seven and I was in a We were in
a grocery store. I was with my mom and I
could I lost my mom. I couldn't find her, went
on up to every every aisle, up and down the store,
couldn't find her, couldn't couldn't figure out where she was.
I remember like having this uncontrollable anxiety and like like crying,

(27:52):
like the rapture came and they took my mom and dad,
and you know, like that's what was going through my head,
like this is what's went on like and you know,
I wasn't good enough to go to heaven and then
I got to go to Hell and my parents are gone.
Like I mean, it's very very real, like things to

(28:15):
deal with that, you know, five to six year old
like come you know, being able to contemplate that and
think about that and work through that like in your
head and try to understand that as far as like
who you are as a Christian and you're supposed to
do these things. But you know that's wild, man, that's

(28:35):
wild for sure.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
It take out the documentary, it may it may bring
back some maybe traumatic for you to watch. To be
honest with you, I think a lot of the people
who came out of it ended up like speaking out
against it or like trying to say that it was
wrong or some of the things that we're doing aren't right.
And then the pushback that they got from people to
be to silence and and stuff, which only made it,

(29:00):
you know, it only made it worse and kind of
validated with kind of stuff that was going on in
some of those programs.

Speaker 2 (29:10):
There was another one not too long ago that my
parents had watched and it was it was called let
Us Pray, and it was about the that.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
Was it was the one from No It was the
Veggietails one let Us let Us. It was a play
on let us, let us pray.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
Okay, let us let us, let us pray.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
It was a bad joke. It was good that was
let us pray. Hey, I mean it's the idea. It
may be an episode let us.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Yeah. It was another one of those, you know, just
documentary like real life with things that actually happened in
the independent Baptist movement which got real big, like around
the late sixties early seventies. It's actually the same college
that my parents met at, but just a lot of
things that were going on there, like through things being

(30:10):
covered up and just trauma from the church, and you know,
talk about reliving some things that were like you know,
I remember one of the big things that they talked
about was this sermon that the main pastor had preached.
His name was Jack Hiles, and he ran the Christian
college here called Hiles Anderson University. But he had this

(30:33):
message to where he brought one of his deacons on
stage and he was like, here, drink that. He's like,
this is poison, it's arsenic. He had big ex'es on
the on the glass. He said, if I ask you
to drink this, would you Would you drink it for me?
And like I said, he smiled at him at first,

(30:54):
and the pastor was like, no, I'm serious. I want
you to drink it. He was like, this will kill you,
but I think to drink it. He asked the guy outright,
you know if I asked you to drink it, would
you think? I said yeah, And he goes, that's you know,
and he pretty much proved his point is these people
are loyal to me as their pastor, their their shepherd.

(31:16):
And in so many ways it kind of just proved
his control over what he had created, which was that movement,
the Independent fundamental Baptist movement, you know, and even years
down the road, so many you know, openly known accusations

(31:37):
for things like covering up you know, essay for children,
and just all kinds of really really horrible things. You know.
The idea of moving pastors around from one place to
the other, like that really didn't come from the Catholic Church.
They got that from the same you know methods that

(31:59):
this church that the.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Most of our family members and cousins and stuff.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's it's just wild man, the
whole doctrinization and the whole idea of just deconstructing as
a whole for Christians moving away from trauma, you know.
And that's why it kind of circles back to what
we were talking about before, just the idea of letting
letting go of regret and this idea of who we

(32:25):
were because ultimately, whether or not we were doing right,
we were doing the best we knew how or could
at the time.

Speaker 1 (32:32):
Try to try your best to take the good from it,
because obviously there's tons of bad and it's worth talking about.
You know, you're kind of like one of them if
you don't talk about it. Oh yeah, we can't talk
about what pastor did. They told us he's a man
of God. We can't talk about and see them, you know,
just this little girl on the teak or something like,
we can't talk about it. You know, it's between him
and God and he's like a father to her, you know,

(32:54):
and these that's conditioning. So what you don't talk about it.
I don't know if that's right. I know, if the
kisses his daughter that way, and just you know, and
if you try to talk so we can't talk to
each other, then you got you trained to tell on me,
you know, and Pastor to pull you to the side
and choke you out up against the wall like we

(33:14):
had a under our friend. I think he deserved that,
choked out the past youth, Pastor, we're not gonna talk.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
I remember another inside joke.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Another inside joke. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about art,
just because I haven't been able to pick your brain
to see if there's anything with this, because you do
you do write a lot. You write a lot of music.
You played in bands, we played in bands together, and worship.
You let lead worship and things like that. You write
a lot of poetry. Can can you talk a little

(33:49):
bit about if there is a process on how you
write or what inspires you like, you know, because because
like your poetry, it's really good. And one of the
things that stuck out to me was the when you
went to I believe it was Atlanta to DDP Yoga

(34:13):
and you met Domad Dallas Pace. They did like a
whole feature on you and your story and and it
had commentary and voiceover work that you did, and a
lot of it was poetic sounding, and it sounded like
something that you needed to write and that you may
be read out of a book or have prepare or

(34:34):
telepropter and you were just coming off the top of
the dome or these really poetic words like how does that?

Speaker 2 (34:41):
I think they gave me ninety seconds for that.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
They were like, and I was like, he had to
write this or something.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
Ultimately, it was just inspired, you know, inspiration. You know,
most of the time when I do write, it's always
inspired from something I like to be, you know, a
little bit out there as far as like you know,
delving and diving into different experiences and feelings about things

(35:07):
that I question about myself. You know, I have a
lot of insecurities. You know, I try to show that
I don't. But I do. And sometimes the things I'm
insecure about are just because I don't ask the right questions.
I don't ask the right questions about myself. I'm not right,
you know, I'm not finding the right answers in life,

(35:31):
whether me or you know, things going on around me.
I'm not finding the right answer because I'm not asking
the right questions, you know, instead of asking why me?
Ask why not me? When you start asking why not me,
you're opening doors for other things in your life too,
like things that you didn't feel like you could ever accomplish,

(35:52):
or situations in your life to where you're not questioning
yourself or wondering where this extra finance is going to
come from because it's already taken care of because I
asked why not me? Instead of why me? And I
don't know a lot of it comes from inspiration, you know, ultimately,

(36:14):
Like I try to be as positive as I can
be when I do create, but a lot of it's
broken hearted, and I think that's normal. I think that's
at least I know what it is. And I feel like,
you know, by expressing myself and being out word and
open with it, you know, when I do get hit
by life, at least I know he's punching me, so

(36:36):
I can do it with it and be more constructive
with it, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 (36:42):
What was your fascination with Ryan Cabrera.

Speaker 2 (36:46):
I actually saw him live. I actually did see him.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Like on.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
The way down.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
That's a good song.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
You know what, dude killed it. I mean it was
that summer in ninety eight. I'm sorry. I was a
TRL kid, So if you don't know what that is,
everybody went home watch Tiara for like two hours. You
watched everything from Britney Spears to Olympus Kid and I
got very cultured by Carson Daily and then TV growing up.

(37:15):
So no, yeah, I don't know. Ryan Cabrier was cool.
It was cool to see him live.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
Before we move on from the poetry thing, I just
have to say it's been years ago, but I saw
a video of you just doing spoken poetry. I can't
remember what music.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Was on it.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Yeah, I think we produced something. It came over and
had a day of film.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
And you had re shared it or something. But man,
just the words that you use and choose to share
your thoughts and even the frequency of your voice. It's
just this beautiful, authentic gift that you have, and I
wanted to encourage you just to keep going with it
because there's so much inauthenticity in the world today, and

(38:04):
it's so powerful even when it is coming from a
place of brokenness. Sometimes all people need to know is
that they're not alone, you know, And it's just so powerful.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
I loved it. Thank you. I don't I don't think
that lately for real. I mean, we had this conversation
earlier about I was mentioning something you guys had said
on the podcast the other day, and you're like, you
really listen, and that means the world We should as
friends like be each other's biggest cheerleaders for sure.

Speaker 1 (38:35):
So yeah, and you've kind of had a crossroads. You
feel like like, uh, that there's a new venture about
to start. You have a lot of a lot of gifts,
you know, a lot of talents, and but you know,
the thing is how to get them out, how to
share them. It could be overwhelming because there's so many

(38:56):
ways and so many things that you can do, but
it's like the idea of just getting them out. So
definitely find something to do with the poetry, you know,
it could be a book. It can be spoken word,
it could be so many different things, but that the
biggest thing is just to get it out there and
as many different avenues as really at this point I

(39:18):
think the best because there's so many, but definitely need
to hear some more poetry and some more music from me.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Yeah, absolutely, he was well, buddy.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
Well, and I showed you how easy it was to record.
You know, it shows you sitting here recording some stuff
that we just that Drew wrote that we laid down here.
I could see that. I can see you doing it too.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Buddy, and you're already doing it. Hey, I asked her earlier.
I was like, what's next. You're like, I don't know yet.
That'll come on time. You know. I think God looks
plain more like her intentions and our like he cares
way more about any of that stuff then anything else

(40:05):
that that we think is important. You know.

Speaker 1 (40:08):
Yeah, I think that's where I'm at. And I got,
you know, thousands of ideas, but it's about the why
and the how, and that kind of thing kind of
jumps into the way of like wrestling with it right
and for who you know, But there's no no shortage
of ideas with me. But there is shortage of execution.

(40:30):
You know, how many songs that don't get don't that
that we've written that don't get released, and how many
poems that you've written that nobody will ever hear. You know.
The kind of thing is the execution and the why
I think if you but I do think that if
you tackle that why, a lot of times that is
the motivation to do it and to not stop at

(40:52):
any cost, like I'm doing this because of this. If
that why it is there and it remains pure, you know,
it's it's ageless, it's timeless, you know, and things that
we've done, we've created certain songs and music and stuff
over the years. It's definitely captures that. Not just you know,
I've been a part of that with my own music,

(41:12):
but any art that inspires that comes from a real place,
a genuine place. Because we know there's you know, top
ten songs and all this stuff that's come out over
the last ten years that came and went, and they
come and go, but there's still that timeless energy that
a lot of art was created in, you know, out

(41:33):
of real and raw emotions, and a lot of it
for a reason, whether the reason was the person's crying
out or they just want you know, they don't want
people to feel like they're alone, and to be able
to share that art and creativity. Those ways they stand
the test of time. So I think that, you know,
encouraging for you and for anybody listening to do the

(41:57):
things that you're called to do and nobody else is going.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
To do it for you. You know, do that for
you because it takes you know, it takes the pressure
and everything off of you by putting it out there.
Like if you just do it for you and you
be creative and you have that outlet you know, whether
or not somebody else that ever makes sense to them,
but because you did that, you're gonna grow and you're

(42:23):
gonna you know, be able to continue to move forward
because you're allowed to let it go. You know, you
and went from here to out here and now it's
and you know, everything that we needed to do during
that point for it to make sense for us, like
we accomplished it. So absolutely, whether or not God ever

(42:45):
open to that door, you just keep walking anyway.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yeah, And to just be encouraged too that if your
why seems weird, Like I've had dreams and things that
weren't like spiritual in nature. It was like to get
this certain plant and planted in the art, or to
purchase this weird this item. And God just is the

(43:10):
perfect orchestrator of all of these things in our lives
that even if you have kind of a something that
doesn't seem super spiritual but you're really passionate or led
to do it, just do it and allow God to
use that thing to help people because He can. It
doesn't matter what container, what form. It doesn't have to
be painting art while the worship band is playing, it

(43:34):
doesn't have to be leading a Bible study. All of
these things are awesome, But like if your passion is
weird or different, God can still use whatever your gift is.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
I'm loving it. That's so funny that that's so funny
that that whole story I think I was video lou
Ingle back in the house.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah, so I think it was you. I want to
if you remember, didn't you had an encounter when you
were were little or you're or a teenager where you
was like you drew a circle in the middle of
the room and sat in it.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
That was you, right, Yeah, Yeah, it's funny because I
don't know. I mean as a father, you know, your
kids grow older and you see so much of yourself
in them. I have full blown adult conversations with my
seventeen and fourteen year old, and I try to put
myself in their shoes, like the things that they're going

(44:45):
through and how they feel. And obviously this world that
we're living in now is way different than the world
that I grew up in, So I try to take
everything into account, like try not to be so hard,
and try to be more loving and try to understand
and try i'd ask the right questions and all of that.
But you know, I went through a really really rough

(45:06):
time probably between I was between the age of like
maybe ten and twelve, and I remember one time distinctling
this experience you're asking about, but we were on our
way to church, and I just it was broken hearted.
I mean that's the only way I can ever remember feeling.

(45:31):
And I didn't feel like I had a friend in
the world, and I felt lost and cold to God
and cold to my parents and all alone. And I'm
obviously growing with hormones and things like that. Now I've
actually it was probably felt like a hundred times worse
at the time, but I remember just crying on the

(45:57):
way to church and getting upset with my parents and like,
you know, annoyed why they were asking me what was
wrong and getting upset with them and not you know,
being very like closed off to them, not wanting them
to know what I was going through. And I remember
my dad pulled the car over and he was like,

(46:19):
he was like, I love you, but he was like
whatever you're dealing with, like this is gonna be something
that only you can get out of. He said, you're
the only one that you're gonna be able to pick
yourself up. I just remember, like, you know, him doing

(46:43):
his best to encourage me. I remember the last thing
he said. He was like, he was like, I want
to challenge you to do something. He goes when we
get home tonight before bad he was like, just sit
in the middle of your room, turn your lights on.
M hm. And he said, draw a circle and just

(47:04):
said in it and uh, he said, I just want
you to pray. You're like, you don't have to pray
anything fancy. He was like, just pray that before you
get up from out of the circle, like God would
chap cheat, God would use you, that God would heal
whatever broke this that you're feeling right now, because you

(47:25):
will if you ask him. Ah yeah, thirty something years sided,
I still cry about it. Hum Anyway, that night I

(47:53):
did exactly what he said, and uh, I'd like to
tell you that the Holy experience met me. I broke
out into revival and I was healing completely and never
again dealt with like depression and stuff like. I'd like

(48:18):
to tell you that. But what I will tell you
is I fell asleep in the prayer circle. And when
I woke up the next morning and I was getting
ready for school, I kind of realized what had just happened.
And I realized that when I had gotten up, I

(48:40):
didn't walk out like I didn't get up with that
same burden, that same brokenness. How was failing beforehand? I
felt hope, I felt loved m hm. Remember writing my
dad a letter and put it into lunchbox. I don't

(49:03):
remember exactly what I wrote, but I just remember like
pretty much telling them like, you were right, I love
your dad.

Speaker 1 (49:11):
Mhmm. That's awesome. B So that's the thing about you know,
let me say, deconstruction or whatever, questioning isn't just life
a journey of deconstruction and re reconstruction and asking questions.
But there's those experiences that you've had that just mean

(49:32):
the world to you and nobody can give them to you,
and nobody was there, and nobody can take it away
from you. It's your personal story, your it's your testimony,
and nobody, nobody could take that from you. That's always
honor that and and and encourage people to hang on

(49:53):
to that because some people you could try to explain
it away and stuff like that, and maybe that's okay too,
but you know the reasons like why you believe and
the kind of God that you believe in, you know
that meets you wherever you are. You know, it becomes
what you need in those moments.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
And how many times since that since that little boy
as God, I was like, you know, all of us
like yeah, that experience, but so many other ones where
it was like God's here too. You know, God's was
with me through that experience too, whether or not I
realized it or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
It's so awesome too when you have those pivotal moments
that you can use as markers in your life for
when when the moments come when you are questioning, you know,
like what if I what if I didn't hear God,
or what if God isn't real?

Speaker 2 (50:47):
Or what if.

Speaker 3 (50:50):
I didn't make the right decision. But then you have
these moments you can always go back to, like no,
I'm doing okay, I'm on the right track and God
is with me.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Absolutely. I will just say like again, I mean from
the bottom of my heart, I mean from knowing you
guys from twenty years, Like if there's anybody that questions
you guys at all, like you guys are real too.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
There's a lot of people who question as every now
and then drew up in a comment.

Speaker 2 (51:19):
Hey, people question exactly, and that's what friends do.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
They're there, so wives do too. Yeah, you see, I
had to kind of get onto it. She's trying to
fight to comment and she's a say, I don't. I
don't have any any haters. I only have fans in denial.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
Have the same way man as is the bust. So yeah,
we're a very blessed gentleman. I mean that's been a
God is fathers. You're very, very very blessed. So it's
a super honor.

Speaker 1 (51:54):
Well. Yeah, so Drew is down vacationing with his family
for a week and so he he relocated to the
Chicago area, and so maybe once a year they come
down here for vacation and we get to hang out
and go to the beach or do have dinner or
do something. And so we worked on music today and
did a podcast and got the fellowship and catch up

(52:15):
and I'm glad you were able to stop by.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
For sure the buss yet to come.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
Yeah, yeah, is that just for us? Is that for
people listening?

Speaker 2 (52:23):
For everybody? Yesterday? It was yesterday, you know, let it go,
Let it be today's today. Let's be thankful for real.

Speaker 3 (52:35):
Man, we have so much to be grateful for. And like,
I'm just grateful for you guys being friends over the
years and really showing what a true it's It feels
weird to even call it a friendship. It's more like
a brotherhood that you guys have and it's such a
blessing to be a part of it, but also to
witness it, that brotherhood between.

Speaker 1 (52:57):
You guys, and just over the years, it's been like
just a perfect nudge when when we needed the perfect
text and let me say what's up, let me let
me send them a message and checking in. No, it
is like synchronistic, Yeah for sure.

Speaker 3 (53:17):
And hey, Datasha, she couldn't be here today, but we miss.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Her all right.

Speaker 1 (53:23):
Well, ladies and gentlemen, thanks for hanging out with us again.
We're gonna plug the retreat that we have coming up.

Speaker 3 (53:29):
October second through the fifth.

Speaker 1 (53:32):
Yes, and uh we'll be Anderson, South Carolina if you
guys would like to come check that out. Also, if
you'd like to support our work, we are on Patreon.
There's perks and stuff that you get there. We also
have our Seer School community at seer dot school, So
go to see your dot school for information on this
stuff and to get tickets for the retreat and keep
up with us.

Speaker 3 (53:51):
And thank you for all the support and the nice
comments and the finances. Were grateful for every piece of it,
every bit of what you guys do for us, and
I hope that we can reciprocate some of that for
you guys.

Speaker 1 (54:04):
If you want to know more about Drew or follow
his journey a little bit more, he's he's on Facebook.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
And uh and uh you can't see.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Me, but we'll also post in the description like a
link to his book. If you're interested, you can check
out his book And what else was there, there's the book.
I feel like there was one more thing.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
What's the name of that music, the song, the genre,
go check it out.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Just me too. So Uh, here's a quick easter egg
for those who listen to Trusika's music. Is that on
the song Imagine Matrix. Uh, there's a long intro outro
where Terrence McKenna is sharing and there's like some weird
noises and stuff. And if you listen closely after Terrence McKenna,

(54:56):
there's a session with Withdrew from moment that me and
Drew had that I pulled out my camera and started
filming back in probably twenty fourteen, twenty thirteen, and that
I recorded it and found a perfect song, a perfect
place to put it, and Drew is featured on that song,
just some of his.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
Flow a tree.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
It wasn't poetry, you were flowing, so it was flowing tree.
So there's a little bit of a lore for the
music music heads. I wonder who that was, Oh, I
know what it was. The other thing was a podcast
that we did together. So we did do a podcast
years ago, something like well it was named after a

(55:42):
Terrence Wick and a documentary something some kind of alchemy.
The alchemy of I don't know, yeah, but if you
look up Drew Gawer Trucika, you'll find it. So thanks
for hanging out with this. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll catch
you next time.

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Peace,