Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
How are you doing today?
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm doing well, thank you and yourself.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm doing fantastic because I'm very excited to share a
conversation with you because this is one of the most
unique books that I've put into my reading pattern in
such a long time, Fifty States of Murder. I love
this because in its own way, it's very interactive.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yeah. Interactive, yes, although I'm not sure entirely what you
mean by that.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
What I mean by that is is that you're going
to see a lot of people that are going to
be at a bookstore or they're going to be at
home when it arrives through Amazon. And what's going to
happen is they're going to go right to the state
that they're from or the state that they would like
to go to, and they're going to research the things
that they know. And to me, that's the activation of
what you're doing. It's the next level of your process
of research.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Well, thank you. That's very gratifying to hear. I hope,
in fact, that is how readers respond.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Well, it's fascinating because we are a true crime generation
and we want to know more about these stories, and
you're putting this into areas of crime that we didn't know.
We literally did not know.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, well, I didn't know about most of the crimes
I cover in the book until I started researching it.
So yes, it's very interesting to me. I do tell
people that true crime writing, there's nothing new about it.
I was asked this year to be the true crime
(01:31):
consultant for the Guinness Book of World's Records, the twenty
twenty sixth version, and one of the entries I supplied
was the oldest true crime book in English, which dates
back to Shakespeare's time. So people have always been interested
in reading about gruesome and gory murders. But it is
(01:53):
true at the same time that over the last well
I don't even five ten years, true crime has become
such a popular genre. It's always existed, but it was
always a little bit regarded as a pulpy, sub literary
(02:15):
kind of genre, and now it's you know, it dominates
the media.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
And yet Edgar Allan Poe in eighteen forty was inspired
by a murder case. I mean that I found that
to be very inspiring.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Well, I tell people, for forty two years, my day
job was a professor of American literature at Queen's College
here in New York City. And one of the things
that I was always fascinated by is that there are
a number of classic American novels that were inspired by
(02:57):
true crime. Richard Wright's Native Son was inspired by a
real serial killer. Feodorge Reiser one of the great classic
authors of the late nineteenth early twentieth century. His masterpiece
is a book called an American Tragedy, which was later
(03:18):
made into a movie starring Elizabeth Taylor in Montgomery Cliff
called A Place in the Sun, and that was based
on a very sensational murder at the time. So American
authors have often turned to real life crimes as the
inspiration for their work.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
You know what this reminds me of. It reminds me
of all the books that I used to pick up
as a child, and I would read about the old
Western villains and murderers and people who broke the law.
And to me, this is the closest thing to that
where we can see all of these crimes and they're
not wearing cowboy hats, and they're not out there in
the wild wild West. I mean, you are giving us
a real good look at what crime is in this
(04:02):
nation and around the world.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Well, thank you. Yeah, that was part of my purpose
in writing the book. Everybody knows, you know, about the
most legendary killers, Charlesson and sohen. But when I research
my books, I immerse myself in old newspaper accounts, which
fortunately many of which can now be accessed online. When
(04:29):
I first started writing, I would have to go to
libraries and xerox microfilm. But one of the things that
always struck me was exactly what you're suggesting, Just the
sheer number of horrible murders that take place pretty much
on a daily basis everywhere in the country, and that
(04:52):
you know, receive headline coverage in the areas in which
they occur, but appear from the news very quickly. So
I wanted to I wanted to make readers aware of that.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Aid Victims one Acts, nineteen twelve. If you don't think
you had my attention at hello, oh my god, the
state of Iowa for this murder.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Okay, you know, I'm going to have to take a
look at to see which one you're referring to. You know,
I am a writer who goes from one book to another. Yeah,
and so as soon as I finish one book, I
pretty much figure this together. But you're referring to the
(05:44):
axe murders of a Liska, Iowa. You know that is
a you know, this this family who is butchered by
some kind of axe murderer in their sleep back in
again nineteen twelve, and that crime again never solved. Speculation
(06:11):
is that it was committed by an itinerant serial killer.
And yeah, I mean it's become a very very notorious
crime within the state, but outside of Iowa, except for
hardcore true crime fans, pretty much nobody has ever heard
(06:34):
about it. And you know, there's a question, you know why,
you know why an axe murder like that has faded
into obscurity when something like Lizzie Borden, you know, killed
two people, admittedly when it was a father, when it
(06:54):
was a stepmother, but just in terms of sheer atrocity,
you know, by comparison to the Melliska axe murders.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Please do not move. There's more with Harold Scheckter coming
up next. The name of his book, Fifty States of
Murder and Atlas of American Crime, La La. Let's get
in there. Let's get back to that conversation with Harold Scheckter.
One of the things that listeners need to understand that
when they grab this book and they add it to
(07:25):
their library, this is not a police report style book.
You physically took the time to write the stories. You
really do bring us into the environment of that story.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Well, you know, that's always been my task as a
true crime writer is to take the primary source material
hold newspaper articles and in some cases psychiatric reports, legal documents,
and turn it into a compelling, readable narrative. So again,
(08:02):
my background as a literature professor steeped in American fictional narrative,
not that this is all fiction, but just the techniques
of telling a story to make it gripping to the reader.
You know, that's you know, that's that's as they say,
that's my primary task as a writer.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
One of the stories I grabbed my attention, Harold right
off the bat was the Versace story, the murder in
nineteen ninety seven, because my wife and I were both
in South Beach during that time period, and if you've
been on South Beach in the Miami area, you know
that that house is right out there in the middle,
that that mansion, and we gathered and one of the
things that really blew me away that night was a
white feather that blew across the sidewalk, and it was
(08:46):
almost like the spirit was saying, Okay, I know this
is a tragedy, but look for the positive, because there's
always going to be a positive at the end of
one of these things. And but I'll never forget being
at that Versace mansion that night when it happened.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Yeah. Well, I cover the Versacei case in my book.
But again, given you know, given that Andrew Kunanan's murder
VERSACEI uh, you know, it's such a worldwide event that
most people know about. But I cover in my book
(09:23):
are the two acquaintances of his that he murdered as
he made his way across the country to kill. Yeah,
you know, which, you know, there's few people remember those crimes,
and the loss of those victims lives, you know, is
every bit is terrible to their relatives as the loss
(09:44):
of Versacei's life. So you know, in my book, again,
I don't treat you know, the crimes that I make
a bad pun in the introduction. You know, I say
there are certain crimes that have been done to death
everybody knows. But on the few occasions when I do
(10:10):
include murderers you know, who are widely known. I focus
on these crimes of theirs that are less widely known.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
So let me ask you this question, did you visit
any of these sites? Because I mean, I'm not going
to lie to you. When I see that there's something
bad that's happened at a particular scene, I don't mind
going to that scene to see if I'm going to
pick up on any bad mojo or if there's any
spirit guides or keepers that are around that area.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
Have you done that, well, I've definitely done that with
pretty much every you know. I've written a bunch of
full length true crime books about psycho killers dating back
to the Civil War era, and pretty much every case
(10:57):
I have gone to the place where the crimes occurred.
So for example, I mean, first, my first true crime
book was about ed Geen, a book called Deviant, who's
now the subject of this Netflix series. So to do research,
I went to Plainfield, Wisconsin, his hometown, spoke to people
(11:19):
who had known him, and so on. When I wrote
about a female serial killer who actually appears in fifty
states of murder, I went to the town, Massachusetts where
she committed her crimes. And you're right, my second book,
which was the most disturbing for me to write, A
(11:39):
book called Deranged about a cannibal, pedophile, sadist named Albert
Fish who committed this one gruesome crime in Westchester County,
a northern suburbs of New York City. I went to
visit the actual house in which he murdered twelve year
old girl. Being there, yes, I mean, I you know,
(12:05):
the place is haunted by the spirit of this killer,
and it really helped me visualize and image in the crime.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
How did you design the cover of this book? Because
that is one of the most creative ways to kind
of give the United States a portrait by I mean,
because it really sums up everything that's going on in
fifty states of murder and I just I'm just so
blown away by the way that your artist did that.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Oh well, thank you. So the question is how is
it designed?
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Yeah? When did you guys come up with that design?
Because I mean, first of all, to really bring in
those murder weapons as being part of the creation of
the United States, or at least the parallels from que
east coast West coast, I mean, I just think that's
a genius a thing to put on the front cover
of a book.
Speaker 2 (12:55):
Well, I have nothing to do with a design, I mean,
except I do provide a lot of a photographs and
illustrations that end up in the book. But credit for
that has to go to the wonderful designers of who
work for the publisher, Workmen Publishing that has always been
(13:16):
known since it's very founding decades ago for its book design.
So I wish I could take credit for that, but
I can't.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
You know, where this book needs to end up as
we get closer and closer to Halloween, It needs to
be taken to a Halloween party because I think, in
my heart this is a very scary book because it
does deal with with the mystery of murder and all
the different crimes and things. I mean, that's what I
love about this book. It creates chills.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Harold, Well, that's you know, that's I appreciate hearing that
because you know, one of you know, one of my
goals as a writer of true crime again is to
turn these dry documents into scary stories. So I'm glad
(14:08):
to hear it had that effect on you. And you know,
many of the stories are just inherently appalling. Yeah, I mean,
I you know, turning them into turning you know, the
dry facts into gripping stories is what I do.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Am I insane to believe when I when I well,
going through this book, I got to be telling you.
Lets you know on something here is that I really
felt like, well, it's not so bad after all. In
this modern day it's been rough the entire way.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
Oh yeah, I mean in many ways, we live in
much safer times than people have done in the past. Absolutely.
I mean if you look at somebody recently, some scholar
did study of murders in medieval London, and you know,
(15:04):
compared to the murder rates of big cities today. Uh,
you know, you can see we live in very sheltered,
very sheltered times. And even if you go back to
even if you go back to the American frontier, to
the wild West, and you see the level of violence
(15:26):
that was taking place there with everybody packing a called
forty five, and you know then all the uh uh,
you know, massacres of Native Americans and so on and
so forth. You know, we're very very sheltered from violence.
You know, we don't we don't butcher our we don't
(15:47):
butcher farm animals anymore. Right, You know, there was a
time when most people in the country were exposed you know,
to everyday butchery. So yes, you're absolutely correct about that.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Wow, where can people go to find out more about you, Harold?
Because you've talked about all the different true crime novels
and stories that you've created, and I want people to
really tap into your your drive to bring these stories forward.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, googling my name always works. I do have a
fairly extensive Wikipedia and Tree. But I have a website
Haroldschechter dot com. But yeah, I mean I think you
can ask ai about me. So facts about my life
(16:37):
and career are not that really difficult to find online.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Well, you've got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. The door is always going to be
open for you, Harold.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Well, thank you. I will take that as an open
invitation and look forward to talking to you again.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Absolutely. Will you be brilliant today? Okay, kid,