November 3, 2025 • 13 mins
In an era marked by overwhelming busyness, rising loneliness, and a profound sense of disconnection exacerbated by social media, many Americans are craving deeper, more meaningful relationships. Even with friends, partners, and family nearby, the fear of burdening others often keeps us isolated, creating a cycle of exhaustion.In KIN: The Future of Family (Atria Books; on sale November 11, ISBN 9781668060650, $29.00), popular writer and New Yorker cartoonist Sophie Lucido Johnson offers a fresh and hopeful response to today’s loneliness epidemic. Blending personal stories with sharp social science, KIN uncovers how the relationships we build beyond the nuclear family can provide emotional support, physical care, and shared resources necessary to survive and thrive in modern life.Johnson illustrates how people are inventing new ways to create communities of care: from living with roommates later in life, to co-parenting with friends, to simply asking for help with errands without feeling guilty. Through these examples and her own experiences, Johnson offers accessible, actionable steps for readers to cultivate their own kinship networks and break free from seclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi. This is Sophie.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hi Sophie, my name is Arrow. How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I am well.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
How are you listen to your voice? Is it always
in tune?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I don't know. I think I tuned it well this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Oh there you go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I got to tell you as we talk about the
new book Ken, I'm really jealous of this book. And
the reason why is because you really give us that
opportunity to step into what being ken is all about,
especially when you travel around the world and you use
authentic you know, culture language and you explain it to
the to the reader as a way of opening up
the door of exploration. And I'm just so proud of
(00:38):
you for putting this together because it's a reminder and
it's also an activator.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Oh thank you that I agree.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
How did you even step into this pool of water?
Because I mean, I know what it's like to be
an author and all of a sudden that that idea
for a book hits you right in the head.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah. I think it was during the pandemic, you know,
the height of the pandemic, and we were in the
very fortunate position of living with people we really liked,
and we found that it was easier to live with
people than to be all alone. We were able to
sort of share a lot of tasks and resources, and
(01:16):
it made me think, I think life could be easier
for people if we were more connected. I mean there's
some irony in that, because the pandemic was disconnecting for
a lot of folks, But for me, I think it
helped open the door to the idea for the book.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, it's not just a pandemic that drove people apart.
It's also politics and what people believe in and things.
And I think that that's where we are right now
and why we need a book like this because we
all want to get back. We yearn for that connection.
We want to go back to that family, and it's like,
how are we going to do that? I said some
awful stuff the other day, But yet, but when you
(01:52):
step into this book and you realize, yeah, there's some
authenticity here.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, I agree with that. It is definitely a moment
where it seems like we feel like there's no repair
to be done when they're when we disagree with each
other and and you know, that's so silly. It's a
lot of throwing babies out with bathwater.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, one of the things that you cover, which which
when I came across and I'm going, where was this
when my sister needed it most? And that is caretaking
because we are that generation. We're not we're not going
to ship them out to an assisted living home. We're
going to see if we can do it ourselves first,
and it's going to take connected.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
And you're talking about I mean, there's caretaking for children,
there's caretaking for people nearing the end of life. I
think you're talking yeah, I mean that ladder category. Especially care.
It's not just that we won't send our loved ones
to care facilities. There really aren't very many anymore. They're
rapidly disappearing, they're very expensive. It's really hard to find
(02:54):
ones that fit the needs of people who are who
are aging, and and people are living much later in life.
So it's important for us to take care of each
other as we get older. And I think that that
narrative gets buried a lot because it's unpleasant to think
about what it's like to get older and be ready
to you know, I think we're afraid of death and
(03:20):
so it's scary to move into the caretaking position. But
I think we're missing out on a lot of deep
connection there. And it's not just for children to care
for their parents, it's for whole communities to care for
each other. So it's a lot of work to take
care of people. But also there's a lot of rewards.
And we're not only putting all this work on ourselves
(03:42):
and we caretake, we're depriving the reward that other people
aren't getting when they don't caretake. So it needs to
be spread out a bit more.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I am so glad that you brought up community and
other people outside of family. And the reason why is
because I've been a part of a neighborhood for twenty
five to thirty years. We are all so connected that
you might as well just call us family. And I
know that we're all aging now and we're all watching
each other limp a little bit more. Old friend's got
some grain his hair. Oh my god, what are we
(04:11):
going to prepare for? So I mean, once again, this
book is for everybody. You can't look at the title
and you can't look at the cover and think that's
not for me, Oh, but it is for you.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, that's that was absolutely my hope. Thanks for saying that.
I've written a several books before, and I was really
hoping to reach an audience of everybody, because I do
think there's either your spread way too thin because you're
trying to, you know, nurture your own little, small, nuclear family,
which is too much work for a single person, or
(04:43):
you're lonely and we are all we have each other,
We're all here. It's all a matter of figuring out
how to get together with one another. And it's not
that hard. Like you said, you know, you're living in
your neighborhood. Neighborhoods have been fading over the past fifty years.
People are not as with their neighbors as they used
to be, and it's really a shame. These are people
who are in proximity to you. And you know, a
(05:06):
story in the book I have is our house caught
on fire when we first got it. Yeah, and and
our neighbor across the street it calls my husband and said, hey,
you know, your house is on fire. We had just
moved in. We were brand new to the neighborhood, and
when we got home, all of our neighbors were already here,
you know, taking care of the you know, moving parts.
(05:29):
Bill had already called the fire department. People were already
taking care of us just because we lived here, and
that was the beginning of a really beautiful relationship. I mean,
I just think they're so lucky to live in this neighborhood.
But everyone lives in a neighborhood, even if you're in
an apartment building or a condo, you know, downtown, you're
in a neighborhood and you're living near people, and you
(05:51):
know connect.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's so important everything that you just shared, because I
know that when I had my heart attack in two
thousand and nine, it was the community of my neighborhood
that came together that gave me a firm foundation and
net so that while I was trying to get my
heart back to being strong again, they were there for
my wife, they were there for our neighborhood. And even today,
when I go outside to do something, you know, they
sit there and they go you sure, you sure, right.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah exactly. I mean, and I'm so glad to hear
that your community, you know, showed up for you in
those moments. And I think when we get sick sometimes
people show up in droves, and that's definitely culturally normed
to do that. It would be great if we could
show up for each other, even when it's not a
heart attacker, it's not a house fire, it's just like
(06:36):
a small a smaller thing maybe just like, oh my god,
I have been watching my kid for three days in
a row because she has RSV and I just need
help with that. You know, it would be great if
we could figure out how to take care of each
other and in.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
All the moments, please do not move.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
There's more with Sophie Lucido Johnson coming up next. The
name of the book Ken The Future of Family Back
with Sophie Lucido Johnson. You know, one of the things
that you talk about inside the book is isolation, and
you also just talked about it's not that difficult to
get back together as can.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You're absolutely right. But the thing is, though, that we've
got to get over this this little problem we've got
with It's not that difficult to get, you know, to
go ghost a family member, and we've got to stop
doing it. We're going to have disagreements, accept it absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I agree with that completely, and I think, you know,
maybe there are situations where you have to you know,
take space from people. I hear that we're all in
different I think that's happening way too fast. I think
people are leaping to that too quickly, where in fact,
there are everyone in everyone who has ever cared about you.
(07:43):
There's some form of relationship that you can maintain or
nurture and don't throw. I had an art teacher once
you told me, you know, the eraser is the artist's
greatest tool, And what she meant is like, don't throw
the thing away that you've been working on, like, try
erasing and try to build it, try to make it
into something different. You've been working on this thing for
such a long time. Don't throw it into the trash.
(08:06):
And I think that that also holds for most relationships.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
That is such an interesting lesson in life what you
just shared. Because I'm a daily writer. I've been doing
it since nineteen ninety four. When I make a mistake
on that journal page, I don't cross it out. All
I do is I put a line through it, because
when I come back in the days ahead, I want
to see what my original idea was versus, Oh, here
comes the self editor. Oh I'm going to Yeah, I'm
(08:31):
going to sit here and I'm going to edit the
bad stuff out.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah. Right, I mean it is, It's all part of
the story. There's no going backward, right, It's all forward,
So forward requires us to acknowledge the things we've done
in the past. Absolutely agree.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So when you put a book together called Ken and
it's the future of family. One of the things that
I'm dealing with at where we presently stand is this
thing called the Swedish death cleaning. Are you familiar with that?
Where you go through your house and if no can
wants it, you got to get rid of it because
somebody's going to go through your trash when you pass on.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I mean, yes, I'm familiar with the concept. And what
do you not like it? What do you think?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Well, I'll tell you what. You know that the first
two levels of it are pretty cool until you start
getting into the personal items, and then you're going, ah,
we're done, We're done, And that's when you're really supposed
to be starting to throw it away.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I you know, I am a person who really loves
I collect diaries that other people have written, I boo
get them off at eBay and from thrift stores and bookstores,
and I find them to be I mean, I love
the fact that all people make marks as they live
in this world and just obsessed with our various human stories.
(09:50):
So I don't know. I mean, you do with your
stuff what you're going to do with your stuff, and
it's probably different for different people. But if that's not
working for you, Arrow, I think you should stop.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, well, you know what. I love the idea that
you're going in there to get other people's writing, because
this is the kind of freak I am. When I
walk into, for instance, like a secondhand store and I
see a journal like that, the first thing you're gonna
think I'm a freak. I smell the ink on the page.
I want to be Oh god, because to do that,
there's an antiqueness. There's it, because ink has a scent
(10:21):
to it. A lot of people don't realize that, Oh
my god. And then to feel their emotions this you
know this late in the chapters.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, I know. I mean, that's not that freaky. I
hate to break that to you. That seems normal to me.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So will you grow up grow up with me in
my neighborhood then, because we we I'm sure we could
move somebody out that doesn't fit, Thank.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
You so much. I'm pretty happy where I am, but
I look I mean, I'm really happy that you have
a beautiful neighborhood too, and I hope, I hope that
your listeners also, you know, take the opportunity. One thing
that really is easy to do is to just like
drop off some cookies or I don't know. During the summer,
I always say, drop off a zucchini, like bring something.
Just just drop it on your neighbor's front porch and say,
(11:05):
we put a little note, introduce yourself, say hi to people,
learn their names. It's available to you right now. You
can do it today and just start building your people.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well, you talk about those listeners. I got to be
honest with you. All my analytic numbers and things. In Brazil,
we're talking about the UK, We're talking about all countries.
And so when I step into this book and I
see you addressing all countries, that means that you're embracing
the planet. And I'm just so proud of you for
doing that because it's not just about American families. This
(11:35):
is about global families and global togetherness.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Absolutely. I mean, I will say that one of some
of the research I did for this book was about
non Western societies and cultures, and it is sort of
a Western a uniquely Western problem, that we are this
isolated and that we are so separated from each there,
(12:00):
from our from our families and our communities, and and
there are there are countries and cultures all over the
world that are doing this a lot better than we are.
And and so, you know, I think absolutely there's something
everyone can can learn from this book, no matter where
you are in the world. And also if you just
(12:20):
grew up thinking, especially because we're all sort of in
this modern you know, technological era where were we are
We think we're connected, but actually we're quite disconnected, you know,
to to just leave your to leave your house and
get off your computer and go and talk to somebody.
It's it's worked for humans for you know, millennia and
uh or close to and we we are social, We're
(12:43):
a social animal. We are supposed to be together, and
we're just more alone than ever. It's real bummer.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Where can people go to find out more about you?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Sophie, I am at Sophie Lucido Johnson dot com. And
the book is called Kin The Future of Family through
i'm an and Schuster. You can just do a little
Google for that. It comes out November eleventh, excellent.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well you got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. The door is always going to be
open for you.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Thanks so much, Erro, it was wonderful to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Will you be brilliant today? Okay, you too,
Hi. This is Sophie.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Hi Sophie, my name is Arrow. How are you doing today?
Speaker 1 (00:04):
I am well.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
How are you listen to your voice? Is it always
in tune?
Speaker 1 (00:10):
I don't know. I think I tuned it well this morning.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Oh there you go, there you go.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I got to tell you as we talk about the
new book Ken, I'm really jealous of this book. And
the reason why is because you really give us that
opportunity to step into what being ken is all about,
especially when you travel around the world and you use
authentic you know, culture language and you explain it to
the to the reader as a way of opening up
the door of exploration. And I'm just so proud of
(00:38):
you for putting this together because it's a reminder and
it's also an activator.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Oh thank you that I agree.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
How did you even step into this pool of water?
Because I mean, I know what it's like to be
an author and all of a sudden that that idea
for a book hits you right in the head.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah. I think it was during the pandemic, you know,
the height of the pandemic, and we were in the
very fortunate position of living with people we really liked,
and we found that it was easier to live with
people than to be all alone. We were able to
sort of share a lot of tasks and resources, and
(01:16):
it made me think, I think life could be easier
for people if we were more connected. I mean there's
some irony in that, because the pandemic was disconnecting for
a lot of folks, But for me, I think it
helped open the door to the idea for the book.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, it's not just a pandemic that drove people apart.
It's also politics and what people believe in and things.
And I think that that's where we are right now
and why we need a book like this because we
all want to get back. We yearn for that connection.
We want to go back to that family, and it's like,
how are we going to do that? I said some
awful stuff the other day, But yet, but when you
(01:52):
step into this book and you realize, yeah, there's some
authenticity here.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, I agree with that. It is definitely a moment
where it seems like we feel like there's no repair
to be done when they're when we disagree with each
other and and you know, that's so silly. It's a
lot of throwing babies out with bathwater.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Well, one of the things that you cover, which which
when I came across and I'm going, where was this
when my sister needed it most? And that is caretaking
because we are that generation. We're not we're not going
to ship them out to an assisted living home. We're
going to see if we can do it ourselves first,
and it's going to take connected.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
And you're talking about I mean, there's caretaking for children,
there's caretaking for people nearing the end of life. I
think you're talking yeah, I mean that ladder category. Especially care.
It's not just that we won't send our loved ones
to care facilities. There really aren't very many anymore. They're
rapidly disappearing, they're very expensive. It's really hard to find
(02:54):
ones that fit the needs of people who are who
are aging, and and people are living much later in life.
So it's important for us to take care of each
other as we get older. And I think that that
narrative gets buried a lot because it's unpleasant to think
about what it's like to get older and be ready
to you know, I think we're afraid of death and
(03:20):
so it's scary to move into the caretaking position. But
I think we're missing out on a lot of deep
connection there. And it's not just for children to care
for their parents, it's for whole communities to care for
each other. So it's a lot of work to take
care of people. But also there's a lot of rewards.
And we're not only putting all this work on ourselves
(03:42):
and we caretake, we're depriving the reward that other people
aren't getting when they don't caretake. So it needs to
be spread out a bit more.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
I am so glad that you brought up community and
other people outside of family. And the reason why is
because I've been a part of a neighborhood for twenty
five to thirty years. We are all so connected that
you might as well just call us family. And I
know that we're all aging now and we're all watching
each other limp a little bit more. Old friend's got
some grain his hair. Oh my god, what are we
(04:11):
going to prepare for? So I mean, once again, this
book is for everybody. You can't look at the title
and you can't look at the cover and think that's
not for me, Oh, but it is for you.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, that's that was absolutely my hope. Thanks for saying that.
I've written a several books before, and I was really
hoping to reach an audience of everybody, because I do
think there's either your spread way too thin because you're
trying to, you know, nurture your own little, small, nuclear family,
which is too much work for a single person, or
(04:43):
you're lonely and we are all we have each other,
We're all here. It's all a matter of figuring out
how to get together with one another. And it's not
that hard. Like you said, you know, you're living in
your neighborhood. Neighborhoods have been fading over the past fifty years.
People are not as with their neighbors as they used
to be, and it's really a shame. These are people
who are in proximity to you. And you know, a
(05:06):
story in the book I have is our house caught
on fire when we first got it. Yeah, and and
our neighbor across the street it calls my husband and said, hey,
you know, your house is on fire. We had just
moved in. We were brand new to the neighborhood, and
when we got home, all of our neighbors were already here,
you know, taking care of the you know, moving parts.
(05:29):
Bill had already called the fire department. People were already
taking care of us just because we lived here, and
that was the beginning of a really beautiful relationship. I mean,
I just think they're so lucky to live in this neighborhood.
But everyone lives in a neighborhood, even if you're in
an apartment building or a condo, you know, downtown, you're
in a neighborhood and you're living near people, and you
(05:51):
know connect.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
It's so important everything that you just shared, because I
know that when I had my heart attack in two
thousand and nine, it was the community of my neighborhood
that came together that gave me a firm foundation and
net so that while I was trying to get my
heart back to being strong again, they were there for
my wife, they were there for our neighborhood. And even today,
when I go outside to do something, you know, they
sit there and they go you sure, you sure, right.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
Yeah exactly. I mean, and I'm so glad to hear
that your community, you know, showed up for you in
those moments. And I think when we get sick sometimes
people show up in droves, and that's definitely culturally normed
to do that. It would be great if we could
show up for each other, even when it's not a
heart attacker, it's not a house fire, it's just like
(06:36):
a small a smaller thing maybe just like, oh my god,
I have been watching my kid for three days in
a row because she has RSV and I just need
help with that. You know, it would be great if
we could figure out how to take care of each
other and in.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
All the moments, please do not move.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
There's more with Sophie Lucido Johnson coming up next. The
name of the book Ken The Future of Family Back
with Sophie Lucido Johnson. You know, one of the things
that you talk about inside the book is isolation, and
you also just talked about it's not that difficult to
get back together as can.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
You're absolutely right. But the thing is, though, that we've
got to get over this this little problem we've got
with It's not that difficult to get, you know, to
go ghost a family member, and we've got to stop
doing it. We're going to have disagreements, accept it absolutely.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I agree with that completely, and I think, you know,
maybe there are situations where you have to you know,
take space from people. I hear that we're all in
different I think that's happening way too fast. I think
people are leaping to that too quickly, where in fact,
there are everyone in everyone who has ever cared about you.
(07:43):
There's some form of relationship that you can maintain or
nurture and don't throw. I had an art teacher once
you told me, you know, the eraser is the artist's
greatest tool, And what she meant is like, don't throw
the thing away that you've been working on, like, try
erasing and try to build it, try to make it
into something different. You've been working on this thing for
such a long time. Don't throw it into the trash.
(08:06):
And I think that that also holds for most relationships.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
That is such an interesting lesson in life what you
just shared. Because I'm a daily writer. I've been doing
it since nineteen ninety four. When I make a mistake
on that journal page, I don't cross it out. All
I do is I put a line through it, because
when I come back in the days ahead, I want
to see what my original idea was versus, Oh, here
comes the self editor. Oh I'm going to Yeah, I'm
(08:31):
going to sit here and I'm going to edit the
bad stuff out.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Yeah. Right, I mean it is, It's all part of
the story. There's no going backward, right, It's all forward,
So forward requires us to acknowledge the things we've done
in the past. Absolutely agree.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
So when you put a book together called Ken and
it's the future of family. One of the things that
I'm dealing with at where we presently stand is this
thing called the Swedish death cleaning. Are you familiar with that?
Where you go through your house and if no can
wants it, you got to get rid of it because
somebody's going to go through your trash when you pass on.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
I mean, yes, I'm familiar with the concept. And what
do you not like it? What do you think?
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Well, I'll tell you what. You know that the first
two levels of it are pretty cool until you start
getting into the personal items, and then you're going, ah,
we're done, We're done, And that's when you're really supposed
to be starting to throw it away.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
I you know, I am a person who really loves
I collect diaries that other people have written, I boo
get them off at eBay and from thrift stores and bookstores,
and I find them to be I mean, I love
the fact that all people make marks as they live
in this world and just obsessed with our various human stories.
(09:50):
So I don't know. I mean, you do with your
stuff what you're going to do with your stuff, and
it's probably different for different people. But if that's not
working for you, Arrow, I think you should stop.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, well, you know what. I love the idea that
you're going in there to get other people's writing, because
this is the kind of freak I am. When I
walk into, for instance, like a secondhand store and I
see a journal like that, the first thing you're gonna
think I'm a freak. I smell the ink on the page.
I want to be Oh god, because to do that,
there's an antiqueness. There's it, because ink has a scent
(10:21):
to it. A lot of people don't realize that, Oh
my god. And then to feel their emotions this you
know this late in the chapters.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, I know. I mean, that's not that freaky. I
hate to break that to you. That seems normal to me.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
So will you grow up grow up with me in
my neighborhood then, because we we I'm sure we could
move somebody out that doesn't fit, Thank.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
You so much. I'm pretty happy where I am, but
I look I mean, I'm really happy that you have
a beautiful neighborhood too, and I hope, I hope that
your listeners also, you know, take the opportunity. One thing
that really is easy to do is to just like
drop off some cookies or I don't know. During the summer,
I always say, drop off a zucchini, like bring something.
Just just drop it on your neighbor's front porch and say,
(11:05):
we put a little note, introduce yourself, say hi to people,
learn their names. It's available to you right now. You
can do it today and just start building your people.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well, you talk about those listeners. I got to be
honest with you. All my analytic numbers and things. In Brazil,
we're talking about the UK, We're talking about all countries.
And so when I step into this book and I
see you addressing all countries, that means that you're embracing
the planet. And I'm just so proud of you for
doing that because it's not just about American families. This
(11:35):
is about global families and global togetherness.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Absolutely. I mean, I will say that one of some
of the research I did for this book was about
non Western societies and cultures, and it is sort of
a Western a uniquely Western problem, that we are this
isolated and that we are so separated from each there,
(12:00):
from our from our families and our communities, and and
there are there are countries and cultures all over the
world that are doing this a lot better than we are.
And and so, you know, I think absolutely there's something
everyone can can learn from this book, no matter where
you are in the world. And also if you just
(12:20):
grew up thinking, especially because we're all sort of in
this modern you know, technological era where were we are
We think we're connected, but actually we're quite disconnected, you know,
to to just leave your to leave your house and
get off your computer and go and talk to somebody.
It's it's worked for humans for you know, millennia and
uh or close to and we we are social, We're
(12:43):
a social animal. We are supposed to be together, and
we're just more alone than ever. It's real bummer.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Where can people go to find out more about you?
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Sophie, I am at Sophie Lucido Johnson dot com. And
the book is called Kin The Future of Family through
i'm an and Schuster. You can just do a little
Google for that. It comes out November eleventh, excellent.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
Well you got to come back to this show anytime
in the future. The door is always going to be
open for you.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Thanks so much, Erro, it was wonderful to talk to you.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Will you be brilliant today? Okay, you too,
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