October 24, 2025 • 17 mins
New York Times investigative reporter Kenneth P. Vogel shines a spotlight on one of the most shadowy and impactful industries in U.S. politics-the foreign influence business. Drawing on exclusive sources, thousands of documents, and on-the-ground reporting, Vogel pulls back the curtain on this billion-dollar business that spans the partisan spectrum and secretly shapes U.S. foreign policy, while often flouting American values like human rights and democracy.The book could not be more timely, as Donald Trump's transactional approach to foreign policy catalyzed the industry during his first term, and now the foreign influence peddling of Trump's second term has the potential to make the first "look quaint by comparison," writes Vogel.Full of revelations, DEVILS' ADVOCATES includes new details regarding: . How Rudy Giuliani used his connection to Donald Trump to solicit millions of dollars from foreign interests that sometimes were averse to U.S. positions
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Talk about being behind the curveball. All my podcasts are
finally on one site, aero dot net, a r re
dot net, seventeen different podcasts to choose from. Kenneth what
a story, This is Grisham, this is Tom Clancy. But
this is real life. And I think that's what I
love about this is that I have to keep telling
myself this is the way of the world, and even
(00:21):
though I may not know what one hundred percent, My God,
you are opening up my educational system.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Arro.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know, I think one of the conceits that I had,
or one of the maybe misimpressions that I had going
into this was that, you know, the way that politics
works around the world, particularly in the developing country or
the Middle East, the former Soviet world, the sort of
pay to play system where people around the leaders are
able to collect these huge sums of money in exchange
(00:49):
for brokering access or influence to sometimes shadowy interests. Like
things don't work that way in the US. We have
all these laws that are intended to prevent that kind
of thing, And as I dug into this book, I realized, no, actually,
the things do work kind of similarly in the US.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I mean, it's like, you know, when I thought of
Rudy Giuliani and and I guess I was blind to
this because I'm so in love with, you know, supporting
you know, the Associated Press, ABC, Fox, Seeing N and
then all of a sudden, I come across this story
about Rudy Giuliani as well as Hunt Hunter Biden, and
I'm going, of course they had other things to do.
What we were getting is what they wanted to share
(01:26):
with us by way of propaganda, and now you're giving
it to us in Devil's Advocate.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah. I think the thing that was so interesting to
me about Rudy and Hunter and the way that their
stories kind of intertwine was you know that what we
saw is particularly during the first impeachment of Trump, was
Rudy Giuliani, you know, pressuring Trump to or urging Trump
to pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden, to dig
(01:53):
up dirt on Hunter Biden, and trying to expose Hunter
Biden in the way that he had, you know, engaged
in the kind of foreign influence peddling that sort of
undermined Joe Biden's self image as this you know, this
global statesman who had urge other countries to fight corruption
and been a champion of democracy, and so, you know,
(02:15):
it was a serious political liability and there were things there,
you know that I think, did you know, call into
question whether Joe Biden knew about what was going on.
But the interesting thing is Rudy Giuliani was particularly well
suited to be able to dig up that dirted to
be able to prosecute that argument against Hunter Biden because
he had engaged in exactly the same sort of activity
(02:38):
in the foreign influence world, sometimes on behalf of some
of the same people like they had both worked for.
Tried to help this Romanian oligarch who was being prosecuted
for corruption in regards to a land deal, and at
one point Hunter Biden was brought in and Hunter Biden
tried to get the guy out of trouble. At one point,
Hunter Biden actually tried to do a deal for the
(02:58):
land that was the subject of the prosecution with these
Chinese interests that would have resulted in the Chinese paying
five hundred million dollars for this land. That Hunter Bidy
would then be a partner in the joint venture that
would oversee the development of well Rudy Giuliani, just a
year or two later, had tried to help that same
Romanian Oligark get out of trouble. So, yeah, if you're
(03:20):
looking for someone who can call out foreign influence pedaling,
then it's good to have someone who has experienced in
that world. But it also is quite hypocritical.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But you know what's really interesting about this book, Kenneth,
is the fact that it really opens up our eyes
to what is currently going on in Israel, not having
ambassadors over there doing the negotiating, but basically businessman. It's
the same thing you're telling us that, Hey, look before
we are in this moment of now, we've got Hunter
Biden and we've got Rudy Giuliani, and trust me, they
were doing some big business deals behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I mean, the reference to the
Middle East Piece deal is apt. Jared Cook and Steve Witkoff,
who were like heavily involved in it, had extensive business
interests with those countries. With some of the key countries,
I mean Jared Kushner even before the first Trump administration,
he had got a huge bail out from the Kataris,
(04:14):
who again played a central role in this negotiation. Uh,
and they had helped him essentially, like rescue this property
that he had sixty sixty six Fifth Avenue, huge building
in Manhattan that was really troubled financially. They bailed him
out basically. So he gets into he gets into the
White House in the first term, and he's working to
(04:35):
help resolve this this blockade that the Emiadis and the
Saudis had placed on the Kataris. And he's got deep
business interest there and so you know, in some ways
like that can be helpful, he said. Steve Witkoff and
Kushner were asked about this and whether there was a
conflict between their role and negotiating this current piece deal
(04:55):
and their business interest in the region. They were asked
about in sixty minutes and Jared Kushner said, no, Actually,
that business experience is like a strength because now we
have trust from these people, and like, you know, maybe
there is something to that that like private diplomacy or
diplomacy that sort of blurs the line between you know,
official government to government interactions and private business can be useful,
(05:18):
but at what costs, Like do we really want the
specter of some of these decisions you know about us
foreign policy being driven not by what's in the best
interest to the United States of America or its taxpayers,
but rather by some ulterior business motives to make nice with,
you know, a sovereign wealth fund or a country that
has a lot of money to throw around. Because let's
(05:40):
not forget what Jared Kusher got out of the administration
after the first Trump administration ended. He set up this
this venture capital fund and got a two billion dollar
investment from this out He's who he had just weeks
earlier been dealing with as the Middle East peace negotiator
negotiator for the first Trump administration. That's a conflict of interest,
whether or not it also yields some benefit.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
But is it a conflict of interest that will lead
to an indictment, because it seems like we're in an
indictment hell right now. It seems like everybody's going in
for the count right now.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, certainly at the top
level with the president, it's unlikely that we would see
any sort of a successful prosecution because of the Supreme
Court decision on presidential immunity related to any official acts.
And as far as like the people around him, I
think it's also less likely that we'll see any sort
(06:32):
of enforcement because Pam Bondy, as one of her first
acts as Attorney General, decriminalized the enforcement of the Foreign
Agents Registration Act, which is the main law that is
used to oversee and regulate foreign lobbying. It's notable, by
the way, Pam Bondi's background before she became Attorney General.
She was a lobbyist and at least some of her
(06:54):
clients were foreign countries, including, by the way, the state
of Cutter which is you know, is the one who
gave President Trump the two hundred million dollar playing too.
So you know, it seems unlikely that there's a great
appetite for prosecuting these types of cases.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Now, please do not move. There's more with Kenneth P.
Vogel coming up next, the name of the book Devils Advocates.
Oh what a shocker, an eye opener. We are back
with Kenneth P. Vogel. This is so intriguing to me
because this is the kind of stuff that I really
(07:30):
it's like having I know what the tree looks like.
The tree is the president, but we don't see the
rooting system of the tree. And that's every bit of
this that's going on. We see every little tentacle going
out there to get what it is that's going to
make this country even better through foreign policy. And when
you've got somebody like Hunter Biden who comes along and
undermines the US interests, Oh, the other side's going to
get upset and that Do you think that's what's happening,
(07:52):
is that he pissed him off?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't just the other side, by
the way, like a sure this was this became a
political cudgel that Republicans tried to use against the Bidens.
But while it was actually happening, which is mostly during Biden,
Joe Biden's vice presidency, they were like career civil servants, diplomats,
foreign service officers in the State Department, in the White House,
(08:16):
and the Energy Department who were raising concerns about this.
So these are like natural allies of the Bidens who
were saying, in some cases directly to Joe Biden, in
other cases to his staff, hey, this is a problem
that your son is working for these interests that are
misaligned not just misaligned with US foreign policy that we
as like the Vice President's office, were encouraging prosecutors in
(08:40):
these respective countries to go after to bring anti corruption
prosecutions against these oligarchs or these companies for theft of
public resources. And your son is working for them, and
they think that what they're getting out of this is
is like influence or protection from the US against these
(09:01):
prosecutions that the US is pushing. So at the very least,
it's mixed signals that are being sent, you know, but
I think more to the point, it is really undermining
US foreign policy.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
It's so interesting that when you say mixed singles signals,
because I mean I really did smile and I got
a little crazy smirk on my face when I learned
that Giuliani played the president. I mean he did because
he put him on his team in order to get
where he needed to go in order to get his
job done. And I just felt like, man, that's the
way the power is, utilize each other's gifts and get
(09:33):
the job done.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, I mean, Rudi Giuliani is an interesting example. You know.
Now he's become sort of a pathetic figure because of
the controversy surrounding his work with Trump and the legal
and financial repercussions of that. In terms of these big
judgments against him for defamation related to his claims about
the twenty twenty election. But you know, during the first term,
(09:58):
he was quite influential in sort of creating this shadow
foreign policy. People refer to him as like the shadow
Secretary of State, where he was like traveling around the
world meeting with world leaders. And even though he didn't
have an official US government position, he was the private
lawyer for the president, and he was seen as sort
(10:18):
of like the bagman for President Trump during that first term,
and he had business interests. It wasn't just that he
was like going around the world, you know, trying to
you know, negotiate peace deals or anything like that. He
was courting business from some of these very deep pocketed
you know, foreign government officials, foreign oligarchs, while at the
(10:39):
same time whispering in Trump's ear about issues that affected
these you know, his his clients or his business partners
in far flung parts of the world. So that I
think was in many ways like a test, like maybe
a more modest version of what we're seeing now where
there are many more people in similar positions, sometimes closer
to Trump. Family men members, Steve Witcoff's family members, Howard
(11:03):
Lutnix family members who were who were doing things similar
to what Rudy did, and they're and they're getting less pushback.
I think the public is just sort of like a
nerd to this, because you know, we saw these scandals
during the first Trump administration visa VI foreign influence, and
they didn't really amount to that much. I mean, the
Mother investigation obviously had some impact, put some people in jail,
(11:25):
including Paul Manniford, who was quite close to Trump, but
they all got pardon and their back out, and they're
doing some of the same stuff right now. And I
think part of that is because of the sort of
precedent that was set during the first administration by folks
like Ruy Giuliani and others that you could blur the
line between US foreign policy and private business interest.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
What's really interesting about this is that it's very creative.
It does require an entire team, an invisible team. You
weren't elected to do this job. Chances are it's just
because you know the person and you've come with a
pretty good looking resume. But this, to me is very
intriguing because it is still serving our nation in ways
that some people look away. Other people think it's wrong,
but it's still it's developing that solid foundation. That's the
(12:09):
way I look at it. Am I wrong?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
No? I mean I think there is like with the
with the Middle East peace deal, like that that was
like you know, if you're to take the word of
Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, like that was facilitated in
part because they had these relationships, these business relationships that
pre data and were outside of their work and government.
And like that's a positive result obviously that that, like
(12:34):
that they were able to negotiate this ceasefire. But is
it worth the like conflicts of interest that like we
don't necessarily see and we don't know, uh sort of
whose interest is ultimately being served on some of these
other deals. Uh, you know, that's an open question. And
to your first point about the president or you know,
people in the administrations having like people around them who
(12:57):
were able to claim some connection and that becomes quite marketable.
You know. I think we saw that most acutely during
the first Trump administration because like you know, this is
the way that Washington works. There are there's like a
profess a permanent professional class of lobbying firms and political
consultants who serve as gatekeepers, and they do it from
one administration to the next, and sometimes are the same
(13:19):
people doing in a democratic and Republican administrations, even as
they you know, take a side during the campaign and
cast themselves as you know, party loyalists on one side
or the other. When it comes to when it comes
to the business, they're willing to they're willing to work
with both sides. But Trump, during the first administration came
into Washington. He was truly an outsider and didn't have
(13:41):
connections to this permanent professional class. So what that did
was created opportunities for new people to come in who
had some sometimes fleeting connections to him. There's a guy
right about in the book, Robert Strick, who is a
good example of this. He he, you know, had assisted
the twenty sixteen campaign, but he was no one's idea
of an insider. But when Trump came in, suddenly there
(14:03):
were these foreign interests who were like, oh my goodness,
we were planning for President Hillary Clinton, and now we're
like at a loss as to how to navigate the
new Washington under Trump. And so people like this Robert
Strick character got huge sums of money from the Saudis,
from you know, the Bahraineys, from the Congolese to help
(14:23):
them navigate this. And then also Trump brought in people
who were not political insiders, but were you know, his
associates from real estate or from the business world and
entrusted them to serve in this capacity. And so, like,
you know, that created a lot of handwringing among Democrats
and critics, including Republican critics of Trump that he was
(14:44):
like empowering his business buddies. But like, I don't know,
I mean, ultimately, if it was so different than empowering
lobbyists who had been you know, who had been in
Washington for decades and we're you know, outside of government
and given this huge power to sort of determine who
got access to the president just because they raise money.
It's just a different kind of soft corruption.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Wow, softening up things just a little bit here. One
of my favorite parts inside a book is the dedication
who is daniel and why is daniel your everything? Because
you put it on the page, so therefore I would
like to know so that when I go to that page,
I can give daniel just as much love and attention.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, Danielle is my wife, and she was quite patient
during this process. And I think I, you know, probably
would be institutionalized if for some you know, breakdown, were
it not for her and instead her dealing with all
my stress. Maybe she's about to be institutionalized for you know,
I'm pushing her to the break but she was incredibly
(15:45):
supported throughout this process.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, I'll tell you one thing about this book, Kenneth,
is the fact that it has made me Google you
and to go on to chat GPT because you've got
my attention so much that it's like I want to
go and I want to figure out not just what
you've written in the past, but everything you're going to
write in the future. It's because I trust you, and
it's because you are giving us something that we should
think we know, we don't know, but we need to know.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, that's kind of you to say, I and certainly
that was the goal here. I mean this is you know,
the my background is I write about money and politics
and have done so for many years, you know, at
Politico and now at The New York Times. And you
know that what had that had traditionally meant covering domestic
money and politics, as we discussed like campaign donations, you know,
(16:30):
domestic lobbying, nonprofit advocacy and the like. But I just
increasingly saw that there were there was a lot of
you know, that there was an increasing amount of foreign
money that was coming into the process, and it was
like creating a disproportionate number of like the scandals that
were gripping our politics. But I didn't really have a
clear understanding of like what was going on. Why were
(16:52):
all these foreign interests willing to pay so much money
to try to influence American politics and government. And as
I started to to peck away at this and do
the reporting, I realized that it stems apart from this
mindset that is, you know, quite prevalent in other parts
of the world, you know, the former Soviet World, the
(17:13):
Middle East, Africa, that like the way that you get
what you want from government is you essentially pay people
in government or you pay their families. And I thought,
you know, that's not really how it works in the US,
Like we're we're better than that, We're different than that.
And the more I reported, the more I realized, no,
it's we're pretty similar in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Thanks Er, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Okay yes, thank you you too,
Talk about being behind the curveball. All my podcasts are
finally on one site, aero dot net, a r re
dot net, seventeen different podcasts to choose from. Kenneth what
a story, This is Grisham, this is Tom Clancy. But
this is real life. And I think that's what I
love about this is that I have to keep telling
myself this is the way of the world, and even
(00:21):
though I may not know what one hundred percent, My God,
you are opening up my educational system.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Arro.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
You know, I think one of the conceits that I had,
or one of the maybe misimpressions that I had going
into this was that, you know, the way that politics
works around the world, particularly in the developing country or
the Middle East, the former Soviet world, the sort of
pay to play system where people around the leaders are
able to collect these huge sums of money in exchange
(00:49):
for brokering access or influence to sometimes shadowy interests. Like
things don't work that way in the US. We have
all these laws that are intended to prevent that kind
of thing, And as I dug into this book, I realized, no, actually,
the things do work kind of similarly in the US.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I mean, it's like, you know, when I thought of
Rudy Giuliani and and I guess I was blind to
this because I'm so in love with, you know, supporting
you know, the Associated Press, ABC, Fox, Seeing N and
then all of a sudden, I come across this story
about Rudy Giuliani as well as Hunt Hunter Biden, and
I'm going, of course they had other things to do.
What we were getting is what they wanted to share
(01:26):
with us by way of propaganda, and now you're giving
it to us in Devil's Advocate.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah. I think the thing that was so interesting to
me about Rudy and Hunter and the way that their
stories kind of intertwine was you know that what we
saw is particularly during the first impeachment of Trump, was
Rudy Giuliani, you know, pressuring Trump to or urging Trump
to pressure the Ukrainians to investigate Hunter Biden, to dig
(01:53):
up dirt on Hunter Biden, and trying to expose Hunter
Biden in the way that he had, you know, engaged
in the kind of foreign influence peddling that sort of
undermined Joe Biden's self image as this you know, this
global statesman who had urge other countries to fight corruption
and been a champion of democracy, and so, you know,
(02:15):
it was a serious political liability and there were things there,
you know that I think, did you know, call into
question whether Joe Biden knew about what was going on.
But the interesting thing is Rudy Giuliani was particularly well
suited to be able to dig up that dirted to
be able to prosecute that argument against Hunter Biden because
he had engaged in exactly the same sort of activity
(02:38):
in the foreign influence world, sometimes on behalf of some
of the same people like they had both worked for.
Tried to help this Romanian oligarch who was being prosecuted
for corruption in regards to a land deal, and at
one point Hunter Biden was brought in and Hunter Biden
tried to get the guy out of trouble. At one point,
Hunter Biden actually tried to do a deal for the
(02:58):
land that was the subject of the prosecution with these
Chinese interests that would have resulted in the Chinese paying
five hundred million dollars for this land. That Hunter Bidy
would then be a partner in the joint venture that
would oversee the development of well Rudy Giuliani, just a
year or two later, had tried to help that same
Romanian Oligark get out of trouble. So, yeah, if you're
(03:20):
looking for someone who can call out foreign influence pedaling,
then it's good to have someone who has experienced in
that world. But it also is quite hypocritical.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
But you know what's really interesting about this book, Kenneth,
is the fact that it really opens up our eyes
to what is currently going on in Israel, not having
ambassadors over there doing the negotiating, but basically businessman. It's
the same thing you're telling us that, Hey, look before
we are in this moment of now, we've got Hunter
Biden and we've got Rudy Giuliani, and trust me, they
were doing some big business deals behind the scenes.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, one hundred percent. I mean, the reference to the
Middle East Piece deal is apt. Jared Cook and Steve Witkoff,
who were like heavily involved in it, had extensive business
interests with those countries. With some of the key countries,
I mean Jared Kushner even before the first Trump administration,
he had got a huge bail out from the Kataris,
(04:14):
who again played a central role in this negotiation. Uh,
and they had helped him essentially, like rescue this property
that he had sixty sixty six Fifth Avenue, huge building
in Manhattan that was really troubled financially. They bailed him
out basically. So he gets into he gets into the
White House in the first term, and he's working to
(04:35):
help resolve this this blockade that the Emiadis and the
Saudis had placed on the Kataris. And he's got deep
business interest there and so you know, in some ways
like that can be helpful, he said. Steve Witkoff and
Kushner were asked about this and whether there was a
conflict between their role and negotiating this current piece deal
(04:55):
and their business interest in the region. They were asked
about in sixty minutes and Jared Kushner said, no, Actually,
that business experience is like a strength because now we
have trust from these people, and like, you know, maybe
there is something to that that like private diplomacy or
diplomacy that sort of blurs the line between you know,
official government to government interactions and private business can be useful,
(05:18):
but at what costs, Like do we really want the
specter of some of these decisions you know about us
foreign policy being driven not by what's in the best
interest to the United States of America or its taxpayers,
but rather by some ulterior business motives to make nice with,
you know, a sovereign wealth fund or a country that
has a lot of money to throw around. Because let's
(05:40):
not forget what Jared Kusher got out of the administration
after the first Trump administration ended. He set up this
this venture capital fund and got a two billion dollar
investment from this out He's who he had just weeks
earlier been dealing with as the Middle East peace negotiator
negotiator for the first Trump administration. That's a conflict of interest,
whether or not it also yields some benefit.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
But is it a conflict of interest that will lead
to an indictment, because it seems like we're in an
indictment hell right now. It seems like everybody's going in
for the count right now.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah. I don't know. I mean, certainly at the top
level with the president, it's unlikely that we would see
any sort of a successful prosecution because of the Supreme
Court decision on presidential immunity related to any official acts.
And as far as like the people around him, I
think it's also less likely that we'll see any sort
(06:32):
of enforcement because Pam Bondy, as one of her first
acts as Attorney General, decriminalized the enforcement of the Foreign
Agents Registration Act, which is the main law that is
used to oversee and regulate foreign lobbying. It's notable, by
the way, Pam Bondi's background before she became Attorney General.
She was a lobbyist and at least some of her
(06:54):
clients were foreign countries, including, by the way, the state
of Cutter which is you know, is the one who
gave President Trump the two hundred million dollar playing too.
So you know, it seems unlikely that there's a great
appetite for prosecuting these types of cases.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
Now, please do not move. There's more with Kenneth P.
Vogel coming up next, the name of the book Devils Advocates.
Oh what a shocker, an eye opener. We are back
with Kenneth P. Vogel. This is so intriguing to me
because this is the kind of stuff that I really
(07:30):
it's like having I know what the tree looks like.
The tree is the president, but we don't see the
rooting system of the tree. And that's every bit of
this that's going on. We see every little tentacle going
out there to get what it is that's going to
make this country even better through foreign policy. And when
you've got somebody like Hunter Biden who comes along and
undermines the US interests, Oh, the other side's going to
get upset and that Do you think that's what's happening,
(07:52):
is that he pissed him off?
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Yeah, I mean, it wasn't just the other side, by
the way, like a sure this was this became a
political cudgel that Republicans tried to use against the Bidens.
But while it was actually happening, which is mostly during Biden,
Joe Biden's vice presidency, they were like career civil servants, diplomats,
foreign service officers in the State Department, in the White House,
(08:16):
and the Energy Department who were raising concerns about this.
So these are like natural allies of the Bidens who
were saying, in some cases directly to Joe Biden, in
other cases to his staff, hey, this is a problem
that your son is working for these interests that are
misaligned not just misaligned with US foreign policy that we
as like the Vice President's office, were encouraging prosecutors in
(08:40):
these respective countries to go after to bring anti corruption
prosecutions against these oligarchs or these companies for theft of
public resources. And your son is working for them, and
they think that what they're getting out of this is
is like influence or protection from the US against these
(09:01):
prosecutions that the US is pushing. So at the very least,
it's mixed signals that are being sent, you know, but
I think more to the point, it is really undermining
US foreign policy.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
It's so interesting that when you say mixed singles signals,
because I mean I really did smile and I got
a little crazy smirk on my face when I learned
that Giuliani played the president. I mean he did because
he put him on his team in order to get
where he needed to go in order to get his
job done. And I just felt like, man, that's the
way the power is, utilize each other's gifts and get
(09:33):
the job done.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, I mean, Rudi Giuliani is an interesting example. You know.
Now he's become sort of a pathetic figure because of
the controversy surrounding his work with Trump and the legal
and financial repercussions of that. In terms of these big
judgments against him for defamation related to his claims about
the twenty twenty election. But you know, during the first term,
(09:58):
he was quite influential in sort of creating this shadow
foreign policy. People refer to him as like the shadow
Secretary of State, where he was like traveling around the
world meeting with world leaders. And even though he didn't
have an official US government position, he was the private
lawyer for the president, and he was seen as sort
(10:18):
of like the bagman for President Trump during that first term,
and he had business interests. It wasn't just that he
was like going around the world, you know, trying to
you know, negotiate peace deals or anything like that. He
was courting business from some of these very deep pocketed
you know, foreign government officials, foreign oligarchs, while at the
(10:39):
same time whispering in Trump's ear about issues that affected
these you know, his his clients or his business partners
in far flung parts of the world. So that I
think was in many ways like a test, like maybe
a more modest version of what we're seeing now where
there are many more people in similar positions, sometimes closer
to Trump. Family men members, Steve Witcoff's family members, Howard
(11:03):
Lutnix family members who were who were doing things similar
to what Rudy did, and they're and they're getting less pushback.
I think the public is just sort of like a
nerd to this, because you know, we saw these scandals
during the first Trump administration visa VI foreign influence, and
they didn't really amount to that much. I mean, the
Mother investigation obviously had some impact, put some people in jail,
(11:25):
including Paul Manniford, who was quite close to Trump, but
they all got pardon and their back out, and they're
doing some of the same stuff right now. And I
think part of that is because of the sort of
precedent that was set during the first administration by folks
like Ruy Giuliani and others that you could blur the
line between US foreign policy and private business interest.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
What's really interesting about this is that it's very creative.
It does require an entire team, an invisible team. You
weren't elected to do this job. Chances are it's just
because you know the person and you've come with a
pretty good looking resume. But this, to me is very
intriguing because it is still serving our nation in ways
that some people look away. Other people think it's wrong,
but it's still it's developing that solid foundation. That's the
(12:09):
way I look at it. Am I wrong?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
No? I mean I think there is like with the
with the Middle East peace deal, like that that was
like you know, if you're to take the word of
Jared Kushner and Steve Witkoff, like that was facilitated in
part because they had these relationships, these business relationships that
pre data and were outside of their work and government.
And like that's a positive result obviously that that, like
(12:34):
that they were able to negotiate this ceasefire. But is
it worth the like conflicts of interest that like we
don't necessarily see and we don't know, uh sort of
whose interest is ultimately being served on some of these
other deals. Uh, you know, that's an open question. And
to your first point about the president or you know,
people in the administrations having like people around them who
(12:57):
were able to claim some connection and that becomes quite marketable.
You know. I think we saw that most acutely during
the first Trump administration because like you know, this is
the way that Washington works. There are there's like a
profess a permanent professional class of lobbying firms and political
consultants who serve as gatekeepers, and they do it from
one administration to the next, and sometimes are the same
(13:19):
people doing in a democratic and Republican administrations, even as
they you know, take a side during the campaign and
cast themselves as you know, party loyalists on one side
or the other. When it comes to when it comes
to the business, they're willing to they're willing to work
with both sides. But Trump, during the first administration came
into Washington. He was truly an outsider and didn't have
(13:41):
connections to this permanent professional class. So what that did
was created opportunities for new people to come in who
had some sometimes fleeting connections to him. There's a guy
right about in the book, Robert Strick, who is a
good example of this. He he, you know, had assisted
the twenty sixteen campaign, but he was no one's idea
of an insider. But when Trump came in, suddenly there
(14:03):
were these foreign interests who were like, oh my goodness,
we were planning for President Hillary Clinton, and now we're
like at a loss as to how to navigate the
new Washington under Trump. And so people like this Robert
Strick character got huge sums of money from the Saudis,
from you know, the Bahraineys, from the Congolese to help
(14:23):
them navigate this. And then also Trump brought in people
who were not political insiders, but were you know, his
associates from real estate or from the business world and
entrusted them to serve in this capacity. And so, like,
you know, that created a lot of handwringing among Democrats
and critics, including Republican critics of Trump that he was
(14:44):
like empowering his business buddies. But like, I don't know,
I mean, ultimately, if it was so different than empowering
lobbyists who had been you know, who had been in
Washington for decades and we're you know, outside of government
and given this huge power to sort of determine who
got access to the president just because they raise money.
It's just a different kind of soft corruption.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Wow, softening up things just a little bit here. One
of my favorite parts inside a book is the dedication
who is daniel and why is daniel your everything? Because
you put it on the page, so therefore I would
like to know so that when I go to that page,
I can give daniel just as much love and attention.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Yeah, Danielle is my wife, and she was quite patient
during this process. And I think I, you know, probably
would be institutionalized if for some you know, breakdown, were
it not for her and instead her dealing with all
my stress. Maybe she's about to be institutionalized for you know,
I'm pushing her to the break but she was incredibly
(15:45):
supported throughout this process.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Well, I'll tell you one thing about this book, Kenneth,
is the fact that it has made me Google you
and to go on to chat GPT because you've got
my attention so much that it's like I want to
go and I want to figure out not just what
you've written in the past, but everything you're going to
write in the future. It's because I trust you, and
it's because you are giving us something that we should
think we know, we don't know, but we need to know.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Yeah, that's kind of you to say, I and certainly
that was the goal here. I mean this is you know,
the my background is I write about money and politics
and have done so for many years, you know, at
Politico and now at The New York Times. And you
know that what had that had traditionally meant covering domestic
money and politics, as we discussed like campaign donations, you know,
(16:30):
domestic lobbying, nonprofit advocacy and the like. But I just
increasingly saw that there were there was a lot of
you know, that there was an increasing amount of foreign
money that was coming into the process, and it was
like creating a disproportionate number of like the scandals that
were gripping our politics. But I didn't really have a
clear understanding of like what was going on. Why were
(16:52):
all these foreign interests willing to pay so much money
to try to influence American politics and government. And as
I started to to peck away at this and do
the reporting, I realized that it stems apart from this
mindset that is, you know, quite prevalent in other parts
of the world, you know, the former Soviet World, the
(17:13):
Middle East, Africa, that like the way that you get
what you want from government is you essentially pay people
in government or you pay their families. And I thought,
you know, that's not really how it works in the US,
Like we're we're better than that, We're different than that.
And the more I reported, the more I realized, no,
it's we're pretty similar in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Please come back to this show anytime in the future.
The door is always going to be open for you.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Thanks Er, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Will you be brilliant today?
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Okay yes, thank you you too,
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